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Antivaccine nonsense Cancer Medicine Quackery

Toni Bark has cancer

Toni Bark is an antivax physician. Recently, she announced that she has cancer. She is also expressing amazement that she could get it, given her supposedly incredibly healthy lifestyle.

Toni Bark is an MD who, like too many other MDs, embraced quackery and antivaccine pseudoscience. She’s been a speaker at antivaccine “rallies”; appeared at antivaccineroundtable discussions“; and even been a featured speaker at the infamous Conspira-Sea Cruise, basically a cruise for conspiracy theorists. What I did not know until recently is that Toni Bark was also recently diagnosed with cancer:

Gastroesophageal cancer is a cancer that develops at the junction between the esophagus and the stomach. It’s a nasty actor, too, as it more or less behaves like esophageal cancer, which is not a good cancer to have. You might remember that Christopher Hitchens died of esophageal cancer. It’s a form of cancer that, even when it is diagnosed while it’s still surgically resectable, still has a low survival rate. So, right off the bat, I feel for Toni Bark. Her chances are not good. I feel for her son, too, whose mother is facing a disease that will very likely end up taking her life. Even with that empathy, though, I have to point out that another of her son’s posts expresses the epitome of everything about cancer quackery and alternative medicine that infuriates me, namely the piety and victim-blaming:

It saddened me at the time that Toni Bark’s son so clearly buys into the mindset that healthy people living super healthy lifestyles don’t get cancer and thus felt obligated to emphasize so much that it’s an “unlucky case of a genetic/immunological fuckup.” Well, yes it is. The problem is that so much alt med has a near-absolutist view regarding our ability to prevent disease and alt med’s ability to cure it, such that if you get sick you think it’s your fault and if your treatment doesn’t work you think it’s because you’re not doing it right. It’s the mindset. The message is that you have near total control over your health. The dark flip side of that message is that if you get sick you must have done something wrong. That dark side increases the suffering of cancer patients and those who love them. It even saddens me that Toni Bark has cancer. Even so,. when I saw this video of an interview she did with Polly Tommey of the VAXXED crew, I was irritated, because Toni Bark herself was promoting the same message:

The video opens with Toni Bark discussing how she underwent “immunotherapy” at a clinic in Vienna and how she’s undergoing chemotherapy for her cancer. My first reaction upon listening to the first five minutes was relief and amazement that she’s apparently undergoing standard of care treatment. On the other hand, she also went to what sounds like a dodgy cancer clinic much like Hallwang. I also can’t help but be a bit amused at how she touts how she’s using mebendazole, an anti-helminthic (anti-worm) drug against her cancer, and how great it is that it was repurposed to treat cancer. I wonder if she would approve of my research examining whether a drug for amyotrophic lateral sclerosis can be repurposed to treat breast cancer. After all, it was that research that led antivaxers to swamp my university with bogus complaints about an “undisclosed conflict of interest” several years ago.

But let’s move on. I want to discuss the part of the video around the 4:50 mark, where the interviewer asks Bark to address the questions that “they” had “poisoned you.” (Apparently, unsurprisingly, Toni Bark’s fans think that the only way she could have gotten cancer is because someone “poisoned” her.) Her answer is very much of a piece with the message in the meme I posted above:

So I’m going to say that if I can get cancer anyone can get cancer because at 14 I gave up white flour, white sugar and went to a plant-based based, not only, but I gave up animal meat at that time. For several years I had been living in ketosis. I was doing ketogenic nutrition with my patients, and I was using a ketogenic diet. I had an average glucose of 60 and no inflammation. So, how did I get cancer? It’s a good question, and even my oncologists were quite confused why I would get cancer. I have no risk factors. I was already metabolically doing all the things to make me uninhabitable for cancer, but it was at the GE junction—the gastroesophageal junction—and theoretically I had silent reflux and had chronic dysplasia over decades. This cancer is a cancer of younger people. It’s mostly people in their late 30s or even 20s. It’s also weird. I’m, like, on the older side for this. So, I don’t know what to say, but it was the last thing on my list of what could be going on. I thought I had an ulcer, and, really, I was at a case testifying in a courtroom in California when it was like, I gotta get out of here, it was so bad.

Later in the video, she goes on about how shocked she was, how shocked her family was, and how everyone was saying, “It can’t be cancer.” Actually, yes. Yes, it can be cancer, even for someone like Toni Bark

There’s that attitude again! Toni Bark had made her body “inhospitable to cancer,” had (to her mind) done “all the right things” to prevent cancer, but ended up with cancer anyway, and a particularly nasty form of cancer at that! Earlier in the video, she recounts how she now has a J-tube. That’s a jejunostomy, a tube placed into the jejunum, the proximal part of the small intestine, in order to provide liquid nutrition, because she couldn’t take in enough nutrition orally.

She even almost died, according to this video. A couple of months ago, Toni Bark suffered a severe upper GI hemorrhage that dropped her hemoglobin to 4. (Normal is around 12-15.) That’s serious bleeding. That’s life-threatening hemorrhage. Apparently, she even underwent surgery for this bleeding and had been told by her surgeon that if the bleeding was coming from her tumor that she might not survive. According to Bark, though, it was not her tumor, but a stomach ulcer that was bleeding.

According to Bark, her cancer is all because her immune system “glitched,” with her macrophages “colluding” with the dysplastic cells at her gastroesophageal junction, which is why she opted for immunotherapy first. Of course, one can’t help but note that this is a very simplistic view of how her cancer formed, so simplistic that it’s likely wrong. One also can’t help but note that the immunotherapy that she received, whatever it was, didn’t work. It didn’t eradicate the cancer. That’s why she’s now undergoing chemotherapy. She also blames her cancer on stress due to her “doing a lot of cases.” You might recall that Bark actually made the news a couple of years back because of her business as an expert witness. Her specialty? She testified for antivaccine parents in divorce cases in which the other parent wanted to vaccinate their child. Indeed, there are even GoFundMe pages by parents seeking her services:

I am separated from my daughter’s father and he has hired a lawyer and is taking me to court to force our daughter to get vaccinated against my wishes. My heart breaks thinking that my daughter may be force vaccinated and my perfect little girl could be vaccine injured.

In response, I have hired my own lawyer to defend against his application. I am trying to raise enough money to hire a doctor to prepare an expert-medical opinion on my daughter’s medical situation.

Dr. Toni Bark, MD, MHEM, LEED, AP, from Evanston, Illinois is willing to provide an expert medical opinion and attend trial in my daughter’s case. She has testified as an expert witness in previous cases, has a particular interest in the issue of vaccines and has authored a number of medical papers on vaccines.

Dr. Bark’s fees are $450/hour for writing the expert report and $550/hour for testifying at trial. Because I live in Canada, I will also have to pay for Dr. Bark’s flights and hotels. I have estimated that the cost for this process is going to be around $10,000.

That’s a cool hourly rate. In fairness, I note that what Bark charges is not out of line with typical physician expert witness fees. Her fees are very much typical fees for expert witness work by physicians. Even so, it still disgusts me that an antivaccine physician can make standard expert witness fees for preparing reports and testifying in favor of dangerous pseudoscience. It also irks me that she portrays her work as being somehow necessary and heroic, when it’s anything but. In the video, Bark goes on about how she’s the “only doctor” in the US and Canada willing to take on what she refers to as “vaccine custody cases” because other doctors are too afraid to take them and don’t want to take them on. She also blames negative publicity for the stress, because news media started to notice her role as an “expert witness” in these cases and to publish stories about her.

Near the end of the video, Toni Bark is escorted to see the VAXXED bus, which has many signatures all over it by parents of “vaccine-injured” children. She asks if she can sign, too. Tommey asks her if she is “vaccine-injured,” and Bark relates how she received multiple doses of the hepatitis B vaccine in her 20s as part of a trial of the then-new vaccine. The implication, of course, is that the hepatitis B vaccine caused her cancer or somehow “injured” her.

I wish Toni Bark well. No one deserves cancer, particularly a nasty cancer like esophageal cancer. I also hope that she sticks with conventional treatments, including, if it comes to that, science-based palliative care. On the other hand, don’t fall for the messaging from her and her son that it’s such a surprise that “even she” can get cancer. Everyone—you, me, any of your relatives—can get cancer. There are lifestyle choices we can make that increase the risk (i.e., smoking, excess alcohol consumption) or decrease the risk (weight loss, exercise, healthy diet), but the risk can never be completely eliminated. We can only hope that Toni Bark’s misfortune to have developed cancer gets that message through to alternative medicine believers, but I fear that it will not.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

331 replies on “Toni Bark has cancer”

I sure would like to see evidence that she was in ketosis for years. Not to mention that ketosis has never been shown to treat cancer and the claim is absolutely implausible—not to mention that all that animal fat probably does contribute to cancer.

she did a vegan keto plan. i actually used to follow her and can verify that she was dogmatic about plant based keto. check out her site and feed.

It’s not possible to do vegan keto. I actually worked this out with the USDA database and a spreadsheet.

All whole plant based foods contain significant carbohydrates. To keep your carbohydrates below ~50 g per day (which is generous) you’d have to get the majority of your calories from vegetable oil or protein isolate.

I’ll check her site though. Thanks for the reply.

Toni Bark was a vegan & followed a vegan keto diet. She did not consume animals & therefore did not consume animal fats!!!!

Toni Bark was a vegan & followed a vegan keto diet.

I take it you didn’t bother to read the immediately preceding comment before chiming in.

For whatever the reason that previous comment wasn’t showing there when I chimed in or I wouldn’t have!!!

I am also concerned about her positive messaging about her Vienna clinic as a first line treatment before science based treatment.

I agree that nobody deserves cancer, and hope treatment goes as well as possible.

And while it is usual for an expert witness to be paid for her or his efforts, in a movement that shouts conflicts of interest so easily, the uncritical acceptance of the fact that testifying in such cases is a source of income for her (and completely ignoring whether it affects her credibility) seems like a double standard.

What’s your commentary now since the briliant and beautiful Dr. Toni Bark passed away? Dr. Bark had the common sense to connect the dots and compare her vaccinated to unvaccinated population of children. She was ALL about human life, unlike others whose agenda is ONLY about money. She defended families for the health of their children and you and your followers find fault in that? Perhaps money drives you and human life is secondary? Where’s your sense of humor? Kevin Tuttle, his point is through humor, tho trust he is just as pissed as the rest of us PRO HEALTH PRO OUR CHILDREN’S LIFE, ANTI HARM community!!!! Wake up! Overabundance of toxic chemicals injected into tiny babies screams WRONG!!!!!
You are an arrogant man Orac. Your followers breed the same arrogance. Sad. Ever have anything kind to write about without injecting venom? No pun intended. Though you will dissect this comment as well.

I think you could see from the post that Orac has quite a bit of sympathy for Dr. Bark’s family. I’m sure they are suffering, too, and it’s sad.

I certainly do not share your appreciation of Dr. Bark’s work, but I can see that the loss of someone you think highly of will hurt.I’m sorry for your pain, even as I see Dr. Bark’s work as harmful, not helpful.

The anti-vaccine movement cannot be fairly describe das pro-health or as anything but harmful, though.

Perhaps money drives you and human life is secondary?

I take it that you are paid by the Anti-Paragraph Cabal.

The lack of paragraphs is probably related to their inability to read the content or even the submission date of the above article.

I would really love to read a deposition from one of her cases. I’d be curious to see how she actually does and what she actually says.

She actually wins every case, once the facts are presented and other Drs are there to testify against her facts they have no clue how to as that they are taught nothing in medical school about vaccines, they know nothing so no nothings lose their case.

She defended families for the health of their children

This is the second time that I’ve seen someone speaking as though Bark were a lawyer rather than a homeopath.

Though with a wee bit of effort they could actually find the cases where she testified as an expert witness on how she so often failed.

What I find odd as the “health of their children” is apparently measured on how many vaccine preventable diseases the kid survived. They do not seem to care how much a kid suffers when they have high fevers, dozens of itchy pox, seizures, pneumonia, muscle pain, etc.

And I also find the victim blaming incredibly jarring.

But I blame her son less for buying what his mom, the doctor, told him about this.

Toni Bark seems to be wrong about gastroesophageal cancer usually being a disease of younger people (in their 20s and 30s). The statistics I’ve seen show it to be most common in middle-aged and elderly people, with a median age at diagnosis in the mid-60s.

https://www.spandidos-publications.com/ol/2/3/503

I hope that her treatment is successful and that she continues to take advantage of evidence-based therapy and monitoring.*

*while noting the likelihood that any benefits of treatment will be ascribed to concurrent woo, with any negative consequences attributed to EBM.
**and hoping that Erin Elizabeth (Mercola’s sidekick who operates Health Nut News) won’t glom onto this case as another example of the nefarious plot against Holistic Doctors.

I saw another video where in Vienna she had immunotherapy and hyperthermic treatments, no mention of radiation, had a minor response, then went on standard chemo and had a better response so is getting her feeding tube out. Since she didn’t mention resection, even though she had gastric ulcer surgery, and didn’t mention concurrent chemo with radiation, I assume its’ not curable.

We must understand the dangers of chemotherapy before subjecting our body to it because in many cases the cancer comes back with a vengeance, as this study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6274941/ confirms:

“Chemotherapy can actively induce changes that favor cancer progression. These pro-cancer changes can be either inside (intrinsic) or outside (extrinsic) the cancer cells.”

“Despite reducing the size of primary tumors, chemotherapy changes the tumor microenvironment, resulting in an increase escape of cancer cells into the blood stream. Furthermore, chemotherapy changes the tissue microenvironment at the distant sites, making it more hospitable to cancer cells upon their arrival.”

“Chemotherapy exerts its pro-cancer effect, at least in part, by modulating macrophages and endothelial cells.” But “many questions remain”, as they always do in BIG Pharma!

Informed consent should naturally indicate we are informed about all possible negative effects, but that is hardly ever the case in BIG Pharma!

Informed consent is important. You provided no reason to think it’s not given.

Of course chemotherapy has risks, and patients should be told them.

Not using chemotherapy also has risks. Chemotherapy is recommended, generally, when the risks of not getting it are larger than its risks. Studies that look at the risks are part of evaluating that balance.

The allopathic medical system is decades behind Functional Medicine. I learned that chemotherapy doesn’t kill cancer a few years ago on The Truth About Cancer, and I’m willing to bet the information in this study doesn’t impact standard cancer treatment for decades.
If they would just stop expending resources defending poor practices and put them towards solving the problems, maybe they would actually help people.

Look at this article where Dr. Goodyear connects the cancer boosting effect of chemotherapy with what’s happening with the COVID-19, both of which he says are a cytokine storm. Interestingly he indicates that it is the dosage of chemotherapy that triggers a cytokine storm that results in life-threatening Tumor Lysis Syndrome. Low-dose chemotherapy does not appear to provide the same increased potential for metastasis as the high-dose approach.
https://www.anoasisofhealing.com/the-covid-19-cytokine-storm-part-2/

If we’re lucky by 2040 cancer treatment may be through low-dose chemo, but don’t hold your breath!

So you actually prefer getting medical advice from a Certified Public Accountant instead of actual medical doctors. Remember next time you injure yourself, ignore going to a hospital emergency department, but seek out the closest CPA!

“The Truth About Cancer” videos are by Ty Bollinger who is just a CPA. His “science” has been reviewed often on this site.

The medical system turned me rouge decades ago when I suffered from ulcerative colitis and was working with my doctor but tests couldn’t find anything wrong. I figured because it was a problem in the digestive system it might be something I was eating so I went on an elimination diet and discovered that my symptoms resolved when I didn’t eat wheat. When I told my doctor, he said there is no evidence that diet impacts health, in a condescending way like who was I to think I knew anything about health. That is the biggest mistake allopathic doctors make is they deny the patient a voice.

I have a cousin who died from breast cancer a few years ago, 38 years old, a mother of two children. I wonder if her oncologist gave her full chemotherapy and the cancer spread, killing her. If I get cancer I want to make choices myself based on the most up to date information available. I don’t want to go to a doctor where my only role is to shut up and do what I’m told.

I don’t disrespect opinions that are different from mine. So much can be gained through debate, an opportunity you miss because talking with you folks is like hitting a wall. I’m an accountant also, and there’s an attention to detail and strong analytical skill that are valuable for any problem, including health. Dr. Perlmutter has taught me a lot, and I have a great amount of respect for him. He’s talking about what’s happening with COVID-19 which is valuable since there are so many unknowns with this virus or whatever it is.

You guys need to get out of the box your in, for the benefit of yourself and others!

I can understand that arrogance and not listening from a doctor can turn people off (without knowing the rights or wrongs in your case). Going from there to rejecting all evidence-based-medicine is cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Cancer kills people. Modern treatment has dramatically reduced deaths from many cancers. Of course we can hope the doctors gave your cousin evidence based treatment, to give her the best chance – and it’s tragic that it was not enough.

Scientists debate, but they use data. You have yet to provide any. I understand that you like what Dr. Perlmutter tells you, but if it’s not data based, and if you’re not following data, it’s just pleasing fiction. So far, you have brought no data, and rejected evidence based corrections to your claim. If a call for data makes you frustrated, maybe you should consider that your beliefs may not have data behind them, and should be reconsidered?

I’ll sum up this post: Cancer is on the cusp of striking down an antivaxxer; the case is a blow to pseudoscience quackery; vaccines don’t cause autism. Now, if only the last bit were true.

As an aside, I refuse to believe the medical cartel can’t do a better job finding a cure for cancer — or ‘cancers’!

Read Siddhartha Mukerjee’s “The Emperor of All Maladies.” Goes through entire history of cancer and developments in treatment. For instance, many childhood leukemias that were deadly are now “curable,” with kids living to old age. Other cancers when found in early stages are “curable.” I use “curable” since chemotherapy can cure a cancer; but causes mutations that years later could erupt in a “different” cancer.

You are right using the plural, cancers. While all have signs and symptoms in common, so called cancer, they also differ immensely in other aspects, e.g., genetics, cells, causes, etc., so, as above, we have made progress, literally cured some, and are making progress on others. One advance which I think will be a major one is use of monoclonal antibodies. Our immune system does recognize cancer cells as different from their natural selves; but usually too late when the cancer has invaded many parts of our body. In earlier stages, we can find antibodies that target the specific cancer cells, grow billions in the lab, maybe attach a poison/chemical to them, then infuse in the body. In some cases, a person on death’s door step has not only become cancer free; but remained so many years later. Only problem is this is very expensive procedure; but with progress should come down in price, at least, if our government eventually cracks down on the extortionist profits of pharmaceutical industry. And progress is being made on detecting cancers at very early stages. Despite what you choose to believe, advances are being made and the “medical cartel” as well as our government is devoting immense amounts of money, time, and effort. However, as an aside, the efforts to detect/predict cancer at early stages currently have both false positives and false negatives. False positives can lead to unnecessary interventions. False negatives, oh well. But progress is reducing both probabilities.

As for vaccines causing autism. You just continue to display your ignorant bias. So what else is new?

P.S. Orac, if anything I wrote is inaccurate, please correct in a comment. I am NOT an expert on cancer, though I have read quite a bit on it.

One advance which I think will be a major one is use of monoclonal antibodies. Our immune system does recognize cancer cells as different from their natural selves; but usually too late when the cancer has invaded many parts of our body. In earlier stages, we can find antibodies that target the specific cancer cells, grow billions in the lab, maybe attach a poison/chemical to them, then infuse in the body. In some cases, a person on death’s door step has not only become cancer free; but remained so many years later.

MuTaTo? I thought that ‘proposal’ was being pooped on around here? Are you speaking first-hand, and know of actual cases with patients knocking on death’s door and such a treatment was attempted? JT and I spoke at great lengths about the ‘proposal’.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/?s=Mutato

Why is JT disagreeing.with Joel that MuTaTo wouldn’t come down in price. I quote JT….

No. The cost of the treatment would not come down significantly over time because there are a lot of costs beyond the technology.
First and foremost, this is a individual product. That means you lose almost all the benefits of scale.
Second, all of these things are hard to make, which means you need really well-trained, educated people to make them. Those people are expensive to hire and retain.
Third, all of the ingredients must be human-grade, which makes them expensive. You can’t choose cheaper, and since you don’t get the benefits of scale, your cost of goods will always be an issue.
Fourth, the volume of quality control and quality assurance on something this complicated is also going to be very expensive (highly trained people, again, and a lot of systems) and is also not optional.

It’s the same reason airplanes are still expensive. When lives are on the line you can’t (morally, ethically, legally or economically) go for the cheapest option.

I believe JT suggested MuTaTo would cost 300Gs. Chump change for the rich.

Greg. Greg, Greg, Greg.

Where to start?

1) Dr Harrison is talking about monoclonal antibodies. Those are very different from the MuTaTo.
2) Monoclonal antibodies are not individually made for each patient, therefore would have the benefits of scalability. Dr Harrison is correct about that.
3) The thing you have quoted me about (from February!) is not what Dr Harrison is talking about and my comments there have not changed. It has nothing to do with monoclonal antibodies.

I said this on another thread, Greg, you really need to work on your reading comprehension.

1) Dr Harrison is talking about monoclonal antibodies. Those are very different from the MuTaTo.

Very well then JT or Joel, please explain the difference.

“vaccines don’t cause autism. Now, if only the last bit were true.”

That bit is true. The fact that you, a denialist like you with no intention of learning or understanding things, says it’s false is immaterial.

That bit is true. The fact that you, a denialist like you with no intention of learning or understanding things, says it’s false is immaterial.

Dean, there are three options: double down, tactical retreat, or total contrition. Wanna have some fun by asking me wish I would choose if I were in your shoes? I promise to be a real good devil’s advocate.

Greg, since I’m able to read and understand the studies, and don’t lie about them as you do, you’d never make it in my shoes. You’re far too dishonest.

Dean, no offense, but I am starting to find you disturbing. I mean, hanging around here so long I always get the impression that none of the Choir believe the BS they’re peddling. There is a certain consistency to your protests, however, that is starting to make me think you might just be a true believer

I remarked several times in the past, and I really believe it, that the Choir would all fail a lie detector test on the VCA question. Dean, the really truly scary thing is I believe you might just pass.

I was wrong Greg. You aren’t just dishonest. You’re truly dishonest and integrity free. A real scumbag.

If you don’t have the ability to understand the studies and data that’s one thing. If you simply choose to lie, as you seem to do, it says a lot about you — but nobody will think it is anything good.

As an aside, I refuse to believe the medical cartel can’t do a better job finding a cure for cancer — or ‘cancers’!

You refuse to believe many things since you opt to mire yourself in ignorance. Cancer has numerous aetiologies and as such, difficult to cure.

Pretty much. I am so sick of people who don’t know anything about science or medicine claiming that “if only people really tried” we’d have a cure for cancer. Comments from people like Greg are only moderately more annoying than that cancer center director who was giving his researchers crap for not working on the weekends and having the gall to have children.

If it were easy we’d be done by now! I’d much rather study something else.

No, I don’t personally know of cases, family, friends; but have read several documented cases. As I mentioned cancer is actually cancers. The one that comes to mine is several cases of advanced malignant melanoma. I won’t bother looking them up as given your previous position, wouldn’t make a dent. However, whether monoclonal antibodies will work for ALL forms of cancer is an empirical question.

As for the cost. It is already far in excess of what it should be. However, as technology improves, it will be easier to find the specific immune cells targeting an individual’s cancer and easier to mass produce them. In addition, they might eventually find certain immune cells that are more “universal”, that is, recognize certain types of cancer.

An epipen costs around $10 to manufacture; yet two sold in U.S. for $400, selling in UK for $50. The research to develop the epipen was funded by the U.S. military. In the past decade the cost of insulin has gone up almost four-fold. Our pharmaceutical industry doesn’t care if people die or suffer, nothing to do with reasonable profits; but current American economic culture is to max profits and then still increase costs, to hell with people. So, what monoclonal antibodies cost today and tomorrow depends on whether we, as a society, recognize profit; but not extortionist profits, especially when much of the research was funded by government,

Dr Harrison, respectfully, until someone figures out how to make an allogenic (ie universal) cellular immunotherapy (one that works for any patient), cell-based cancer therapies just aren’t going to get a lot cheaper. As I said in the bit Greg randomly quotes, it’s not just about pharma profits, it’s because it takes a lot of time, trained personnel and a mountain of resources to make those treatments.

Monoclonal antibodies, on the other hand, I think absolutely will come down in price just because you can take advantage of the benefits of scale while making them.

What about HPV vaccine ? It prevents cancer, and is even immunotherapy. And “medical cartel” loses lots of profits. It still promotes it. Perhaps it is concern of public health. (It is SCAM cartel that thinks only profits.)
And about immunotherapy: cancers are different, and there are actually few antigens they produce. To grow, cancer must generally be able to avoid immune surveillance.

Greg she had plenty of vaccines before she knew better. Anti vax doesnt mean no vaccines before.

I don’t know if anyone else here saw the bonkers satire A Cure for Wellness but the combo of facts that she went to a Hallwang type clinic and is now taking an anti-worm drug eerily echo that film.

That was an absolutely bizarre film. I watched it on television thinking that it would be about something like the Kellogg clinic movie. But some good production values.

I liked the call-outs to ‘The Magic Mountain’ and ‘After Many a Summer’.

The derelict Beelitz Sanatorium (used as setting for the inside scenes) is just amazing.

I began becoming a vegetarian as a teenager, finally becoming a full-fledged vegetarian by age 30, then a vegan by age 55. Based on study of peer-reviewed literature I take modest supplements, e.g. iron (I’m also a blood donor), vitamin C (helps absorption of iron & fruit juices just too high in sugar), vitamin B12 (only vitamin vegans can’t get naturally), etc. People will point out that my diet isn’t naturally healthy because of the supplements; but I should point out that vitamin D is added to milk, folic acid to a number of products, and many others, especially many breakfast cereals, have additional added vitamins. Others will point out that our teeth and digestive system is built to eat meat. Well, yes and no. Our teeth are NOT those of canines; but neither pure vegetarian animals. However, the fact we can eat meat means nothing. We are also wired to get pleasure from narcotics, amphetamines, and, in fact, like the taste of methanol (wood alcohol) and ethylene glucose (antifreeze tastes sweet).

I am a vegan for a number of reasons; but health is one of them. Based on extensive study of the literature, as long as I take modest supplements, there is absolutely NO evidence that a vegan diet is harmful and more and more evidence that it can reduce various health risks, reduce NOT eliminate. As opposed to anti vaccinations, many proponents of CAM, etc., I don’t see the world in dichotomies. Despite my diet, I can still get cancer and other diseases, just the risk is lower. How much lower, don’t know? And some literature indicates that if I do get a disease my chances of survival are better in some cases, better NOT guaranteed.

I should point out that I NEVER having smoked, basically except for a few times in my youth, NEVER used alcohol, and NEVER any recreational drugs, except caffeine. I am in my mid 70s, regular blood donor, and still walk my dog a mile briskly twice daily, and go to gym daily where I lift weights, used stationary bike, and swim. BMI = 23. I probably have reasonable genes as non-smokers in my family lived to mid 80s and beyond, whereas smokers died younger.

There is a reasonably good book that reviews the literature on a vegetarians, actually vegan diet, Michael Greger’s “How Not To Die.” A ridiculous title. Though clumsy, title should have been something like: “How to Reduce Risk of Premature Death, Disability, and Reduced Quality of Life.” While he discusses numerous things, some with little to no evidence, which he admits, one gets the impression that following his advice would encompass obsessing with diet a good part of ones day, so, while a lot of good information in book, read it with care.

In any case, Tony Bark is just one more example of dichotomous thinking. Science has shown diet relates to health and disease; but science is based on probabilities. In fact, there are a few heavy smokers who have lived well into their 90s; but I wouldn’t recommend basing ones decision on the “exception proves the rule.” And, who knows, they might have lived even longer and with a better quality of life if they had NOT smoked.

I, personally, am willing to give up a couple years of old age in order to enjoy my life now, so I don’t care about “vegan diets are healthier”. But at least you’re not militant about it like so many I’ve encountered.

You apparently missed the point. It isn’t just length of life; but quality as well. You are right that I’m not militant about it; however, when people tell me a vegan diet limits my choices, I eat Middle Eastern, Indian, Italian, etc. foods, lots of variety and once in a blue moon eat vegetarian, e.g. Indian food with small pieces of cheese. Being a fanatic is worse for ones health than once in a while not following diet.

However, I didn’t list ALL the reasons I choose vegan. First, the absolute cruelty to animals from our large agribusinesses. Two, destruction of natural environments. For instance, many lakes dead in Arkansas. So much chicken shit enters streams, algae grows on it, uses up oxygen, called eutrophication. Three, cow farts actually methane, contributes significant amount to global warming. Four, cutting down Amazon and other rain forests to raise cattle, reduces the trees that absorb CO2 and produce oxygen and since most nutrients are in canopy, soil only lasts a few years. Destroying rain forests lead to extinction of many species. I value life on earth. And one can grow 10 times the health protein from plants, so could feed a lot more people. And gasoline products used extensively to raise and transport meat. If we had many small local vegetable/fruit farms, would use far less gasoline. So, even if only improves odds a little for health, there are lots of reasons to limit or even stop eating meat.

I invited at various times friends to eat at local vegan place. They were surprised that they liked the food. One even took his wife. Unfortunately, didn’t stop him from eating meat; but now, he sometimes opts for vegan food.

You are a good man, Dr. Harrison.

While I am not quite on board with vegetarianism, hear hubby and I are eating less meat, and much less food. We found in our later years that we need fewer calories and more veg. We also now share meals at restaurants.

I recently learned about a biochemist who is making vegan cheese. Which I can cheer for because if my severely lactose intolerant sister comes to visit I can offer her some of the stuff we love. I married a guy who comes from a Dutch/Danish/Canadian family and cheese is huge in our house. This could really help my sister, and even vegans: http://www.sporkful.com/live-youre-eating-gay-cheese/

I really hope using cashews helps tropical economies, and not hurt them.

Joel- I remember reading many years ago of vegans possibly obtaining their vit B12 naturally, inadvertently,by eating insufficiently washed fruit that had invertebrate deposits and bits of spiders webs which supplied the necessary minimal requirements. Never seen this verified.

Seems it’s even less pleasant than that.

One particular plant based blogger, who I won’t name…

Do you mean that one that rhymes with Maliciously Fella?

…publically stated that she gets all the B12 she needs from Macca Root, Spirulina and Bee Pollen. In truth, Spirulina contains a non-bioactive analogue of B12, and Macca Root only contains B12 when it has not had the shit cleaned off it properly (for information, this contamination seems to be more common in agricultural systems where human faeces is regularly used to enrich soil).

https://angry-chef.com/blog/diets-in-a-time-of-scurvy-part-1

(emphasis added) Yeah, so much “natural” vitamin B12 most often seems to come from faecal contamination!

Using the Functional Medicine model, any dis-ease can at the root cause be any combination of poor nutrition, poor sleep, lack of exercise, mold, fungus, parasites, emotional stress and unresolved issues, environmental toxins to name a few.Try the ACE test, free online, traumas experienced between 4-18 yrs, verbal abusive, sexual, alcohol, pregnancy ets. score 2 yeses out of a possible 10 questions, you have an 80% chance of developing, cancer, heart disease and the like after age 50, More yeses, the higher the risk. I had 2 yeses and I had cancer 20 years ago.

Joel, you sound prudent in your assessment of your growth toward veganism, lucky for you you had the time, resources and…freedom, I might add, to choose your own path. This IS simply all we as questioners of the vaccine orthodoxy would ask that you extend to us as well. May we all be free to choose our own path toward health, wellness and reduction of risks as WE see them, with informed consent and prudence. Is that too much to ask?

This a terrible situation: I can hear fear in her and her son’s voices. I know something about this illness because my father- at an advanced age- developed Barrett’s and was monitored for several years/ kept on meds, ( they stopped screening in his late 80s- he never developed cancer) Dr Bark mentions “silent reflux” which would be factor; there are other risks; I hope that there is help for her.

Here’s what makes me worry more;
I know of her activities because she has appeared on Gary Null’s show** often and is a key figure in his docudramas mostly against vaccines. She had a website where she sold various products mostly focusing upon health and beauty IIRC. Being in the woo brigade, she has been exposed to some of the worst pseudoscience there is and a friendship with Null can not be healthy- he constantly brags how he saved Utrice Leid, a broadcaster from the Caribbean, after she had surgery, with his protocols. He also cheerleads for various clinics in Germany and Austria -including the one that failed Bob Marley.

Belief in diet, exercise and supplements as being totally protective against cancer- although they may be protective to an extent– may insulate a believer from taking measures that could have ameliorated her chances of developing the illness- like my father did. Woo believers might neglect signs that would send a more SB person running to standard care.

At least she is using SBM now which may help. I hope so. I feel for her and her son.

** an update on Woo-topia ( PRN):
Null and his accomplices flood Wikipedia with letters and exposes which are all now routed to W’s legal department. He notes that recently his bio has become even more dismissive of his genius as W reacts. Expect legal action soon he says..
Hilarity reigns supreme.

I just looked over her website: she sells perfumes and skin care.
I notice that, although she was never heavy, she was perhaps a thin average, she must have lost a lot of weight because the shape of her face has changed drastically. This make me feel even more sad for her.

”I refuse to believe the medical cartel can’t do a better job finding a cure for cancer — or ‘cancers’!”

If only the ”medical cartel” (physicians, nurses, researchers, pharma workers etc.) also got cancer, then we’d see action!

Wait…

<

blockquote>
If only the ”medical cartel” (physicians, nurses, researchers, pharma workers etc.) also got cancer, then we’d see action!

Wait…

Well, their kids also get autism (well maybe not pharma workers or their kids get it less) and they still promote vaccines. Doesn’t mean anything. Just shows that people can make some really bad choices, and especially where it comes to protecting the status quo

“Well, their kids also get autism (well maybe not pharma workers or their kids get it less)”

Citation needed.

Which would be hilarious from someone who does not have an autistic child, know nothing about autism and is just a jerk.

So… Not only are big Pharma bribing all the people in the know? They are running black sites to make all the 100% safe and autism free vaccines to give to their employees?

On the other hand, if the employees really did have a lower incidence of autism, maybe just being in the same room as someone who works for the same company that makes vaccines has health benefits.

“My heart breaks thinking that my daughter may be force vaccinated and my perfect little girl could be vaccine injured.”

Oh, f*ck you, lady.

“Dr. Toni Bark, MD, MHEM, LEED, AP, from Evanston, Illinois”

I was born there in 1976 and lived there until I was 13. It depresses me to see what a gentrified haven of woo it’s becoming.

My mom died of cancer there. She didn’t “deserve” it any more than Bark does.

Let’s see… I know “MD” stands for Medical Doctor. And “LEED” stands for Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design, plus “AP” stands for Associated Press. What is the “MHED” stand for.

I was about to post something similar, if less pithy. People who characterize their children thus aren’t seeing them as people, but as exquisitely-crafted products.

The number one hit for woo immunotherapy in Vienna is the clinic by Dr. Ralf Kleef. Bark also cited Kleef in an anti-vax statement she made earlier this year where she assertd “Properly managed natural exposure to some targeted diseases prevents some cancers and other chronic conditions”.

Kleef has been in the woo field for a while and his CV claims that from 1996-1998, he was “Head of a commission of experts to fever therapy of cancer at the Office of Alternative Medicine (OAM) / National Institutes of Health (NIH), Washington, USA”

Here’s one of Kleef’s victims, I mean patients.

I’m really curious what these clinics are doing that they are calling “immunotherapy”. Like, monoclonal antibodies? Some kind of “cancer vaccine”? A cell therapy (I hope not). Some kind of immune suppressing drugs?

Have you seen or heard of MuTaTo in action?

Oh, Christ, that’s rich. Have you? If not, please account for your comment.

Go away, fucking fuckbrain.

Monoclonal antibodies already have been approved for certain types of cancer. They target a specific antigen on some types of cancer cells. Others till have to be individually designed; but the probability that specific cancer type antigens will be found is good. In either case, what they sell for and what they actually cost to manufacture is the question and in the U.S. the answer is what they sell for represents extortionist profit levels. I found one article from 2008 on costs of two monoclonal antibodies used in Canada, much lower than U.S. Drucker (2008). The cost burden of trastuzumab and bevacizumab therapy for solid tumours in Canada. Available at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2442764/

And you can read a summary of types of monoclonal antibodies: American Cancer Society. Available at:
https://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatments-and-side-effects/treatment-types/immunotherapy/monoclonal-antibodies.html

The point is that, starting with childhood leukemias, progress is being made both in earlier diagnosis and treatment despite Greg, the moron’s claims. Cancer is NOT one disease, though collecting a number of “diseases” with certain signs and symptoms in common, so one approach NOT reasonable.

”people can make some really bad choices, and especially where it comes to protecting the status quo”

Whaddaya mean, bad choices? It’s totally worth it to die unnecessarily and sacrifice one’s family as well, in order to hide the Secret Cancer Cure They Don’t Want You To Know About. while facilitating horrible disorders caused by useless, toxic vaccines.

That sweet pharma $$$ is just too tempting to pass up.

It’s not as simple as hiding the cancer cure. Doctors spend 10 years and $100k getting trained to be an Oncologist and what they’ve learned is already behind the newest evidence about what cancer is and the best treatment options. If they suspect that chemotherapy is causing the cancer to spread, they are unlikely to change their treatment because they need the revenue to pay off their student loans, and buy a house and food, etc. In addition, much of their information comes from the pharmaceutical companies, so its biased towards medication being the solution. It’s the inherent flaws in the design of the allopathic medical system.

@ Chris

Many vegetarian cheeses have casein which is a milk protein. So check the labels if you really want to go vegan. However, though I prefer not eating cheese, those with lactose intolerance can eat aged cheeses as the aging process breaks down the lactose. Prior to going from vegetarian to vegan I loved Black Diamond Aged Cheddar Cheese. On the other hand, the saturated fat, not good for you, is very high, so even vegetarian cheese with casein is better fat-wise.

Also, yoghurt and kefir, the bacteria used break down lactose, again, still have fat; but OK for most with lactose intolerance.

I try NOT to be a fanatic and look at as many sides of an issue as possible. However, if one chooses to continue with dairy products, please get those from free range animals, not from factory farm animals suffering their entire lives.

I should also point out that factory farm beef and fish are much lower in Omega 3 than free range cattle and fish from the sea. Both raised on corn, etc., not a natural food.

Am I confusing you or just me??? LOL

The young man who is making the cheese is severely lactose intolerant, similar to my sister. She was born almost sixty year ago as a 7 month 3 pound premie, so was never able to digest milk. All cheese gives her indigestion. Just a minor price to pay for actually surviving.

I guess I became more tolerant of differences (unlike a few who flood the comments here) because I grew up in the 1960s with someone who could not drink the magic cow juice that was being pushed at all of us.

She does like Tofutti cream cheese.

I also like Tofutti cream cheese on a toasted whole grain bagel, just don’t like the calories. LOL

Thanks to you I bought packet of Tofutti today together with sourdough baguette. Calories I don’t need; but yummy!

😉

Moderation. I don’t use much, when ordering a bagel I ask for half a veggie shmear on whole wheat. (the “veggie” shmear is not vegan, it has chopped veggie, ‘coz I am going for the wee bit more fiber!)

Both raised on corn, etc., not a natural food.

You can’t raise cattle on grain; this mainly comes in during the “finishing” stage.

I could give a list of documents; but one is: The Life of a Factory Farm Cow Raised for Beef. Available at: http://www.humanedecisions.com/the-life-of-a-factory-farm-cow-raised-for-beef/

There have also been a number of documentaries, several on Netflix.

I left something out that factory farm raised beef, the food changes the acidity of their digestive rumen which is part of the reason e-coli survives. Doesn’t survive in grass fed beef. Then these factory farms mix the meat from thousands of animals, so if one has it, then consumer at increased risk. In addition, the e-coli infected beef’s waste, manure, goes into the soil which is where we get e-coli in spinach, romaine lettuce, etc.

According to Wikipedia article: “Once cattle obtain an entry-level weight, about 650 pounds (290 kg), they are transferred from the range to a feedlot to be fed a specialized animal feed which consists of corn byproducts (derived from ethanol production), barley, and other grains as well as alfalfa and cottonseed meal.” So, you may be right that they aren’t fed grain products for their entire lives. Still, what they feed them after “entry-level weight” is NOT what their digestive systems were designed for and results NOT good, e.g., lower Omega 3, risk of e-coli, and the “unnatural marbled fat” may taste a bit better; but far more unhealthy.

Joel, I don’t mean to disparage your concern for the animals;* I’ve been a vegan,** lacto-veg (I still like Yamuna Devi’s Art of Indian Cooking), and currently attempt to be a conscientious omnivore, which is tough when one is dirt-poor. I can remember when I paid $10 a pound for Animal Welfare Approved heritage turkeys to be flown in the day before Thanksgiving (with heritage breeds of all kinds, if people don’t eat them, people don’t raise them).

And before I was forced into my current quarters, I was very involved in cat rescue.

This is all preface to the fact that this conversation has been had before, here, perhaps six years ago. I made one comment (to which someone perhaps in the CAFO business responded), which I haven’t found, but the payload was this. There are nuances beyond animal-rights propaganda.***

In short, I find cattle to be relatively well treated versus, say, chickens.

*Except for the rodents and so forth that are ground up during harvest.

**I would eat meat out of the trash, as it did not promote the industry of slaughter. Then two of my lady friends bombed me with a can of generic corned beef hash in the dorm trashcan. The outcome was not pretty.

*** Vide Camille Marino. Oh, and PETA’s Virginia “cat shelter” is simply a death camp.

A few years ago at a Vegetarian Thanksgiving we had a turkey. He was alive and the guest of honor. Really stupid bird. Ever try tofu turkey? Personally I don’t see why one “has” to have turkey on Thanksgiving. Lots of other goodies. My grandmother’s stuffing, eventually vegetarian, sweet potatoes, and my grandmother made pumpkin pie from scratch, etc. Personally, never cared much for turkey and it was the gravy that made them edible, at least, for me.

Yep, chickens are treated about as cruel as one can get. Packed 20 in a cage they go nuts and begin to peck at their own breasts. As a result, some breeders cut of their beaks. Some die, those above poop on those below. Really disgusting. And in states like Arkansas, so much chicken shit that it runs off into the streams and lakes. Algae love it, multiply, suck up the oxygen and, voila, a dead lake, eutrophication.

As for cows/steers treated better than chickens, so what? Doesn’t justify how they are treated. Pointing to something even worse doesn’t justify anything. And, again, even if only latter part of their lives fed grains, still NOT natural food for them, causes upset tummies, changes PH in rumen, lowers Omega 3s, more marbled fat, less healthy, risk e-coli directly from beef and indirectly from soil then veggies, etc. Cow farts, methane contribute to global warming, some estimate better than 10% as methane ca. 35 times more potent greenhouse gas than CO2, takes more than 10 lbs quality protein vegetarian products to produce 1 lb beef protein, destruction of rain forests to raise beef, etc.

There are so many good veggie dishes, Middle Eastern, Indian, Italian, Ethiopian, etc.

And for a good part of my life I lived on a shoestring budget. Vegan would have been a bit difficult; but vegetarian NO problem. I used to eat lots of Kefir, Yoghurt, Cheese; but even more vegetables, fruits, and whole grain breads, etc. Beans and rice a tasty healthy dish with salad on the side.

And now as a half senile old curmudgeon, vegan, Costco to the rescue. Inexpensive big bags of organic broccoli, brussel sprouts, peas, corn, blueberries, cherries, pineapples, and a great refrigerated yakisoba. And they have these pre-cooked bowls of brown rice, take only couple of minutes to heat in microwave. Next stop Trader Joe’s.

@ Narad ( semi-OT) re cat assistance:

There seems to be a trend here towards helping outdoor colonies in parks and public places:
most famously, 3 weeks ago, a feral black cat ran through a professional football game to much applause ( see videos black cat at MetLIfe Stadium) ; television news interviewing cat groups learned that he was from a nearby riverfront park colony where an old nightclub was once located ( still referred to as the Barge). A local former mayor helps cats as well.

There is also a colony behind a public library and in another riverside park near a pool and tennis courts ( and expensive apartments) and a park with boating/ fishing ( another county). AND
behind my place is a large house with a huge attached PAVILLION and an elaborate SHED which both have crawl spaces and a few semi-feral cats. Which I feed.

So far, cat friends seem to outnumber birdwatchers thus no real public outcry AFAIK.

So far, cat friends seem to outnumber birdwatchers thus no real public outcry AFAIK.

I’m too tired to get into the “Wisconsin study.” I am pleased to see, however, that Vox Felina has emerged from hibernation.

I just want to note that Greg is endlessly whinging about vaccines, but doesn’t even know what a monoclonal antibody is. That’s immunology 101. Literally so – we went ahead and made them in junior year.

doesn’t even know what a monoclonal antibody is.

To be fait, he seems also very fuzzy on what a lymphocyte clone is. Given the ubiquity of, say, other definitions of ‘clone’ in pop-culture, I could see why he is confused. Without snark, I cannot fault him on this part. Much.
That being said, that’s no excuse for not cranking open an immunology book – or just some webpage – and get a more precise picture of what he is blabbing about. It’s not like we are not providing some pointers.
Heck, while almost a teenager, I got this wonderful, age-appropriate book about human biology. It did a good job at telling me some basic facts.
There was also this cute French cartoon, ‘Il était une fois la vie’, a sequel of a previous cartoon about history. That was the time there was educational series on TV, aimed at children.

Double heck, about cancer, during my lifetime, things changed a lot, I was taught in highschool that children lymphoma are of ‘very poor prognosis’. and breast, liver, colon cancers were seen as a death sentence.
Nowadays, survival by decades after diagnosis is possible for many of these cancer types. And the library of chemo agents is a lot larger than in the 80’s.
I may be wishful thinking, here. A good friend of mine got diagnosed with colon cancer recently. I’m terrified to lose him.

The girlfriend of the author of the webcomic XKCD was diagnosed with cancer a decade ago. He wrote some beautiful comic strips on the topic. I’m a bit afraid to go check on their status, through.
The relevant comic strips are, notably, 931 (a hard take on the meaning of ‘cancer survivor’) and 933 (about tattoo – yes, it’s relevant).

The author of the webcomic “PhD – Pilled Higher and Deeper” also had a very good cartoon about cancer, which he wrote following a visit to a cancer research center. Including talking to researchers with relatives – or even themselves – with cancer.
https://phdcomics.com/comics/archive_print.php?comicid=1162
(the link will start a window to print the comic strip – cancel it to see the strip. I couldn’t find a permalink to the cartoon)

If you really want to help us, enroll in a clinical trial.
But I don’t expect Greg to do that. All talk, no act.

That being said, that’s no excuse for not cranking open an immunology book – or just some webpage – and get a more precise picture of what he is blabbing about

Now now Athaic, I did find this tutorial on the immune system to be very helpful. Also, on the other thread you didn’t respond to a certain observation. Tetyana pointed out the monkey-chickenpox study reporting that the chicken pox virus was killing memory chicken pox T cells. You said memory cells come after an infection with effector cells transforming into them. The observation though would suggest that memory cells and effector cells are different entities and are both around during infections. Can you please account?

https://www.khanacademy.org/science/biology/human-biology/immunology/v/helper-t-cells

As you have been told so many times, memory cell pool against previous infections is limited. That is what why killing memory cells will damage existing immunological memory.

You said memory cells come after an infection with effector cells transforming into them. The observation though would suggest that memory cells and effector cells are different entities and are both around during infections.

sigh
You want a bigger explanation? Fine. I love this stuff, anyway. Immune response is fascinating.
You know, for a start, that two cell types ‘are different entities’ is pretty much the result of one cell type ‘transforming into’ the other type. You are splitting hairs.
I assume that both the effector and memory cells you are talking about are targeting the same molecule. If you are talking about anti-pox effector cells and anti-rubella memory cells, obviously you still have a lot to learn. And we tell you already all that.

‘are both around during infections’ – fair enough, this part could use more precision.
Remember, you asked for it.

Caveat lector
The context of Greg’s question is the attack and killing by the measles virus of memory B-cells. Greg was wondering why the virus didn’t kill most memory cells directed against it, before being magically wiped out.
He conveniently left out in his post on this thread a few things we told him. Repeatedly.
Like, as long as the bugs are around (virus, bacteria – heck, also with allergens like pollen), the activated immune cells will keep multiplying, replacing the cells which died for one reason or another and ideally reaching a point where they eventually overwhelm the circulating bugs. It’s that, or the bugs win.
And then the infection is seen as over, most activated B- and T-cells will ‘power down’ and eventually die – they are not needed anymore -, but a few will go into quiescence and become part of the long-term memory of the immune system. Try to figure out their name; you have three guesses.
End Caveat

Anyway. Long answer.
Each individual lymphocyte – B-cell or T-cell – has a specialty, a specific molecule shape they can recognize (the truly amazing part is that these cells achieve this specialty by random genetic rearrangements while maturing). Cells derived from this parent individual form a clone. Take a bunch of B-cells, or just filter the serum of someone, and you will get an heterogeneous population of antibodies directed against a mix of targets (polyclonal antibodies). Isolate B-cells from the same clone, and you will get monoclonal antibodies from them – an homogeneous population all directed against a single molecular target.
B-cells and T-cells are activated if they encounter their molecule of choice, and if other cells ‘help’ them staying activated. Some of these helping cells are an array of cells whose main purpose is catching anything that floats around, digesting it and then presenting fragments of it around to the specialized cells. They have the fancy name of antigen-presenting cells. Other helping cells are specialized T-cells called, surprisingly, T-helpers.
(I would have been really impressed if Greg has pointed out a little trivia, that T-helpers are one of the targets of the HIV)

As you can guess from this, there are a lot of positive feedback in the immune response. B- and T- cells produce receptors catching a specific part of a specific bug, the receptor catch something, the cells react by multiplying and producing more receptors – and in the case of the B-cells, produce more antibodies. A lot more. These cells also release a lot of hormones – molecules calling for help, and keeping the cell and its colleagues activated and multiplying. Most of these hormones are known as cytokines, of which interleukines are the most-known sub-population. (I use the term ‘hormone’ broadly, immunologist experts may chastise me for this)
And the more the receptor is a perfect fit for the bug, the more the cell will be activated and replicating.

And memory cells, in all this? Simple. Well, mostly simple.
First, for the non-biologists: whenever a biologist says that a cell is activated, or just alive, it’s a fair guess to assume that the cell, on top of doing whatever it’s supposed to do, is also busy replicating itself – making more cells like it. Well, that’s not true for neurons (we think. maybe). And germinal cells (until fecundation, of course).
All those activated T- and B- cells? They are replicating themselves, growing and then splitting themselves into two exactly similar cells (the technical term is mitosis).
Did I say similar? Not exactly true. Depending on the environment, there is some chance that one of the daughter cells will start the maturing process which will transform it into a memory cell.
The chance is higher when the infection is over and various cells are telling the activated immune cells to calm down (some of these cells are also T-cells, a sub-population called T-suppressor). When the infection is in full bloom and the cells are swimming in hormones, the chance is lower, but not null, so memory cells may be created during an infection.
Since the bugs are still floating around, these memory cells may actually have a good chance to activate and transform into effector cells.
Also, an infection is not a linear event. It’s going to ebb and flow. A wave of virions is going to exit the cells the previous wave infected, the immune cells will activate and go into pursuit, then most of the bugs will disappear from the circulation, the immune cells will calm down, and the process will repeat until the last viruses are wiped out or wisely stay in hiding (viruses of the herpes family are big on the latter – like the chickenpox/shingles virus).
Well, again, I’m simplifying – infected cells will have bits of the virions attached to them (and also will try to call for immune cells to come and mercy-kill them), so T-cells and antibodies will still find their molecule of choice to attach to. So ‘calm down’ is relative.
During a ‘low tide’, cells will see a decrease of the signals telling them to stay activated and thus will be more likely to form memory cells.

tl;dr: memory cells have a chance to be formed whenever an activated B- or T-cell goes into mitosis. It’s a lot higher when the infection is over.
And again, until the infection is truly over, activated B- or T-cell will keep going into mitosis.

Athaic,

Great little summary 🙂
But I think you might have lost Greg at “You want a bigger explanation. Fine…” 😉

Wow!! And Athaic took out her nunchucks and went to work Bruce Lee style. Waaahhh!! Am I impressed? Not really!

Herein we once again get a taste of a typical trickery with you guys: You try to bedazzle and confuse, in hopes that people stop paying attention to the central points and even the contradictory ones. Well — you did say this….

For a start, upon re-reading the OP, I realized the virus is attacking the memory cells, so my musing about effector B-cells is misplaced. Until active B-cells start their transition into memory cells, they are safe from the virus.

But now you’re saying this?.

tl;dr: memory cells have a chance to be formed whenever an activated B- or T-cell goes into mitosis. It’s a lot higher when the infection is over.

So now you’re conceding the possibility that effector memory cells are around during an infection? Of course you had to! The chicken pox/monkey study is proving that to be the case, with the chicken pox infection killing those memory chicken pox t-cells.

So where does this all leaves us? It leaves us with your kung-fu kicks, punches and other gyrations, in which you’re attempting to count on your ‘mitosis storm’ during the active infection to replenish cells that are lost from the infection attacking them. Yet, did you not initially pose this as just a musing?….

I was wondering, could there be a race effect as well between the measles virus and the measles-specific B-cells?
I mean, at some point the measles-specific B-cells have been triggered into multiplying. So while the virus is busy invading and killing some, the others are busy dividing and replacing their sisters. And fighting the virus.

So indeed, where does this all leaves us? Could it be that Tetyana is correct, and lasting, lifelong immunity from infections and even after memory cells are killed is still possible, because antibody levels don’t tell the whole story? Hhmmnn!

Duck! Here comes another flying kick!!! Hhaa!!…….

But now you’re saying this?

Yes, Greg.
I don’t see glaring contradictions, just poor me a bit fuzzy on the fine details. So, in the previous thread, I was bowing down to experts who are more up-to-date than me on the relevant details.
But for the basic details on immunology 101, my memory was still mostly good for the task.
You can take the short explanation, which is oversimplifying things a lot for the sake of brevity.
Or you can take the longer explanation if you are interested in nuance and the sheer complexity of biology.

But it doesn’t matter. You are not interested in understanding, just in being a troll.
You are just parroting some sentence and believe you have a gotcha. As usual, you got nothing.

in which you’re attempting to count on your ‘mitosis storm’ during the active infection to replenish cells that are lost from the infection attacking them.

Sometimes I think greg is not that dumb and just a troll.
Some other times… Dumb as a doorknob doesn’t cover it. You will have to weight down the doorknob.

Greg, I told you that already, on the previous thread and on this one. How is the virus killing cells? By infecting them, making more viruses in the process.

So any scenario, like yours, in which the virus has the last word killing immune cells is a scenario which ends with the infected person’s death.
That should be so obvious. i’m shuddering at the thought of greg playing any warfare-based game.

So yes, I’m sort of counting on mitosis for my cells to have the last word.

‘Poor me being fuzzy with the details’? ‘Bowing down to experts who are more up-to-date’? It’s all good, Athaic. It’s, how do we say this? We see you are trying very very hard!

Two things that would definitely help you, Greg, are a sense of humility and a sense of genuine curiosity.

Humility includes accepting that you might be wrong or not know everything. Archaic clearly has this.

And if you had curiosity and found the explanations of Athaic and Dr Harrison insufficient, you would go to a more detailed and authoritative source like one of the books that have been suggested.

But that would require accepting that the answer you have latched onto might be wrong. And you can’t let yourself go there.

A few years ago she took part in a scaremongering film called ‘Bought’, the now (sadly) defunct League of Nerds podcast discussed the film and it’s manipulative techniques with youtuber Jeff Holiday whose being doing stirling work covering medical quacks.

ORAC and Dorrie are sadly mouthpieces for a medical system that has seen a steady decline in the overall health of those who use that system and a steady increase in Profit for those who promote it. It is all about Money, not health. They do not want to admit this decline as it will affect their bottom line and their arrogant sense of being right.

Evidence please?

And how does your “follow the money” schtick work in the UK, with our horrible socialised NHS?

Having been through two tussles with cancer myself, I do feel for Toni Bark. I have never had any time for Bark, but getting diagnosed with cancer can give you a severe shock.

Sadly, the choices Bark has made have probably made any cure even less likely. The secret to surviving cancer is to have it identified early and take the appropriate action as soon as possible. Faffing about with woo clinics in Austria only gives the cancer more time to grow and spread, making a cure harder.

Yes, I also get grumpy about the victim blaming. My lifestyle, while far from perfect, is pretty good. Maybe a bit too much alcohol. The reason for my bouts with cancer is ultimately genetics. They were both cancers my father had.

Guys, don’t get me wrong here, but I don’t think it’s a case of cancer or ‘cancers’ research coming up short due to blatant malfeasance as is the case with vaccine research. I don’t believe the medical cartel have a cure for cancer or ‘cancers’ and they are hiding it. I am not even saying that they are not working very hard at finding a cure. Where I suspect the research is falling is from the desire to stay within the existing paradigm, and there is not much motivation for innovative thinking. I got a sense of this with the reaction to MuTaTo with the Choir scoffing at it as if those two Israeli scientists were proposing using cow dung to cure cancer. It’s only after I probed further that JT reluctantly conceded there was nothing theoretically wrong with the method and it might work. Perhaps all ideas that stands to majorly upend those three treatment modalities (chemo, radiation and surgery) are similarly frowned upon.

I see this same desire to protect the status quo as contributing to the malfeasance in vaccine research. Grappling with a paradigm that started to reveal itself as simply not worth it, vaccine injuries were proving to be too great, the ‘powers that be’ instead chose to double-down and engage in all sort of underhandedness. Here is my summation from the MuTaTo thread on vaccines and cancer science and research.

My final wrap on this thread…..

The vaccination exercise and modern cancer therapies are example of two paradigms. Paradigms are renowned far the fierce devotions they spawn. The reasons for this loyalties may be numerous and diverse (incentives, habits, ignorance), but there is no denying their impact.– they make the paradigm resistant to change, and even when it’s proven to be deleterious or outmoded, and in need of being scrapped or replaced.

With the vaccination exercise, we’ve pretty much arrived at that point where that paradigm has proven to be deleterious, and in need of being scrapped. Regardless of what benefits are being achieved from vaccinating against mainly harmless diseases, it’s becoming quite clear that these benefits do not outweigh the price of having two percent of the population brain damaged,1 in 10 with ADHD, babies getting killed after their well visits, and so on and so on. The vaccination paradigm has effectively been exposed for its shortcomings, and change appears essential.

Yet, as explained, paradigms will ferociously resist change, and we’re seeing this. We have the relentless Wakefield bashings, unrelenting slammings of the ‘waco’ antivaxxers, push for mandates, measles hysteria, talk of Russian bots, WHO designations, growing up unvaxxed, and so and so on. As incessant as these sagas are, they’re to be expected. They’re the natural consequences of a threatened paradigm fighting back.

Unlike vaccination, current cancer therapies can not be seen as a failed paradigm. Chemotherapy, radiation and surgery are effective; they are beneficial; they save lives. Indeed a case may be made that they’re outmoded, but having no suitable replacement we have no choice but to stick with them.

MuTaTo, if it works, could possibly be such a replacement. Indeed that would be a superlatives defying achievement for mankind if we were to finally defeat the cancer scourge. Yet, even in that event, don’t expect the modern day cancer treatments paradigm to go out without a fight. As we see Orac and others here throw the first punch, that might be a harbinger of more to come.

PS: Joel, JT or any other Choir member for that matter, could you please update me on the essential difference between monoclonal antibodies cancer treatment and MuTaTo’s phage approach.

As I’ve already written, it is a waste of time responding to you; but as a senior citizen I’ve got the time. First, I highly suggest you read Lauren Sompayrac’s book “How the Immune System Work (5th Edition). I own and have read three undergraduate immunology textbooks, 800 pages plus; but Sompayrac’s 150 page book, well-illustrated, is SUPERB.

As for phages, read the Wikipedia article. A phage is a type of virus that attacks bacteria; but each type of phage only attacks one type of bacteria. Phage therapy has been successful in a number of cases in saving lives when antibiotics fail and is now being actively pursued in the U.S. It was mainly first developed in the former Soviet Union Republic of Georgia and was successfully used during World War II by the Soviets.

One inexpensive book available on Amazon.com is: Thomas Häusler (2006). Viruses vs. Superbugs: A Solution to the Antibiotic Crisis?

Since phages, actually called bacteriophages, are recognized by our immune systems, they are destroyed after a brief period. So, though some believe that the phages alone eliminate the offending bacteria, I believe they destroy enough of them before being destroyed by our own immune systems while our own immune systems are revving up so that our own immune systems do the final work. In any case, there now exist labs in the U.S. and elsewhere with bacteriophages for a limited number of bacterial infections and they are working on more. The nice thing about bacteriophages as opposed to antibiotics is that they are very very specific so do not create any antibiotic resistance.

As for cancer, so far what apparently happens is that phages as any other intruder arouse our immune systems in general. As I wrote previously, our own immune systems do eventually recognize cancer cells; but often after it is too late. Perhaps the early general arousal of our immune systems by phages, since they are basically harmless except for the specific bacteria they target, though recognized as an intruder, increase the chances our immune systems will recognize cancer cells earlier. Just an hypothesis on my part. The future will tell.

Do read Sompayrac’s book.

And give the reference for your citation above.

And before mouthing off, try looking up some things first. Despite what some think, Wikipedia is a good starting place. Not all Wikipedia articles; but many have extensive reference lists, often with hyperlinks.

@ Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH:

-btw- Chris is right: you are a good man AND a good educator.
Whilst you will probably never change what habitual scoffers believe, you will- and do- affect the rest of us including the silent ones– you make a difference.

I’ve always supported the idea of education for adults aided through the internet, thus I try as well.

Observing woo and anti-vax advocates, I’ve noticed a few things about how they function-
they are primarily self-educated even when they do have vaguely related degrees like nutrition. And there’s a great problem with self education because people ( with exceptions of course) without guidance from professors or other experts tend to pick and choose what they study. You probably can remember that certain topics in certain courses were off putting to particular students and they grudgingly studied because THEY HAD TO. I found that many students even in graduate school abhorred mathematics even though they had to have done reasonably well in undergraduate/ secondary schools/ testing to have got as far as they did.

So, alties tend to filter what they “study” such as looking for experiments that vaguely resemble whatever their belief system includes and avoiding disconfirming or unrelated data that may actually be more important to the general concepts they survey. it’s like the person who looks for the keys where the light is not near where they probably fell out of their hand- because it’s easier..

AS my greatly esteemed late prof of history of psychology used to say, you need to know all of this so you don’t repeat the errors of the past.

Thus, whenever I hear a woo-meister talk about how he studied all about cancer or hiv/aids( and it’s mostly he) and an anti-vax mother ( and it’s mostly mothers) discuss her “research” and “studies”, I usually know what type of filtration system I’ll encounter. A few anti-vaxxers I watch are adamantly opposed to new research about ASD genetics and early indicators of ASDs because this work shoots holes through their primary belief : vaccines cause autism. Alties who hold that quality of diet both causes and cures cancer will have no truck with genetic studies or research about chemotherapy or immunotherapy. AND you should see what they do with psychological topics: there is no mental illness, meds kill or cause gun violence, spiritual therapy is the only answer especially for drug addiction..
And learning is purely an “energy exchange”!.

re WIKIPEDIA:
I agree- it’s a start.
As I’ve been reporting, alties are aghast at how it portrays their work and at least one is preparing to sue them out of existence ( see PRN- perhaps less focus on Orac now and more on Wiki editors and administrators.. I’m sure they’d hate you too).

.

Perhaps all ideas that stands to majorly upend those three treatment modalities

Antibodies, phages, etc. are not part of the ‘traditional’ chemo modality. Yet now they are. At least antibodies. Even if the dud stories are higher in number than the success stories.
(I recommend the blog “In the Pipeline” – the author is following, among other things, stories of success and costly fails in Pharma, Big or Small)

About scoffing at novel ideas – most of these novel ideas get touted as the new and all-powerful cure for cancer, while still at the lab stage, or the early testing stages. There are still plenty to prove, so of course we may be slightly negative. See also the boy who cried wolf.
XKCD has the perfect take on this.
https://xkcd.com/1217/

Nuance, how does that work?
F***. Enough. Viewers, just go read the recent article about black & white thinking. Greg is the perfect demonstration case.

Again, if you are not going to help, go jump in a fire or something.

Paradigms are renowned far the fierce devotions they spawn. The reasons for this loyalties may be numerous and diverse (incentives, habits, ignorance), but there is no denying their impact.– they make the paradigm resistant to change, and even when it’s proven to be deleterious or outmoded, and in need of being scrapped or replaced.

The “vaccines cause autism” paradigm seems to be an excellent example. Although, in Greg’s case, I think that it has reached the level of a delusion, a false belief characterised by:

certainty (held with absolute conviction)
incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre, or patently untrue)

Greg: “It’s only after I probed further that JT reluctantly conceded there was nothing theoretically wrong with the method and it might work”

That is a blatant lie.

Dr. Gorski said just that in the blog post to which JT was commenting.
And there was no “reluctantly” there on the part of JT and is was not something JT “conceded”.
That is just your self serving misrepresentation of what happened.

Misrepresentation and lies.

“Where I suspect the research is falling is from the desire to stay within the existing paradigm”

You don’t even understand the meaning of “paradigm”.
MuTaTo is not a paradigm shift in cancer treatment.
If you actually read that article then you obviously did not comprehend what you read.

“there is not much motivation for innovative thinking”

As if you’d know.
It’s so easy, isn’t it, to slag off about things you know absolutely nothing about.

“Perhaps all ideas that stands to majorly upend those three treatment modalities (chemo, radiation and surgery) are similarly frowned upon”

No, you goddamn idiot. Immunotherapy is not frowned upon, it is actually part of the treatment for some cancers.

“could you please update me on the essential difference between monoclonal antibodies cancer treatment and MuTaTo’s phage approach”

That was already done on the MuTaTo thread.
Go back and read it, your moron.
Then read it again.
Then maybe try to actually understand it.

“could you please update me on the essential difference between monoclonal antibodies cancer treatment and MuTaTo’s phage approach”

That was already done on the MuTaTo thread.
Go back and read it, your moron.
Then read it again.
Then maybe try to actually understand it.

Prefacing this tongue-lashing from BillieJoe, perhaps other lurkers may indeed be wondering what’s the difference between monoclonal antibodies cancer treatment and MuTaTo’s phage approach. From my browsing effort and the hard fought info that was yielded here, monoclonal treatment seems to be nothing more than engineered antibodies. From the Khan Acadermy we learned that cancer cells present their problem antigen on their surface via their MHC-2 complexes. The matching engineered antibodies would then attach to those antigens and flag them for attention from killer t-cells or munching phagocytes.

Yet, cancer cells are constantly dividing, and subsequent divisions may bring new mutations and antigen receptors that go unrecognized. The engineered antibodies would then be of no use to those mutated cells, and new ones would be required.

MuTaTo’s bacteriophage approach is different in that those phages target cell receptors. A bacteriophage is nothing more than an engineered virus with its proteins or peptides meant to latch on to those matching protein receptors on the cells. Cells use their receptors to send and receive protein communications. With MuTaTo we were also told that those phages would deliver toxins to kill the cancer cells.

MuTaTo also promised to be a breakthrough in that the phages would target three receptors. The scientists explained that even fast dividing cancer cells cannot mutate three receptors at a time. MuTaTo would then serve as insurance for always getting cancer cells.

That said, Joel brought up a good point that got me musing (I do use that word a lot): He mentioned that the immune system and killer t-cells would also likely attack those phages. He added perhaps phage therapy can work by waking up the t-cells to the problematic cancer cells and even if they are subsequently killed. Still, must say we might not have such a strong insurance if the phages can be killed before they reach the scene. I believe Orac also discussed this matter of targeting, the technology involved in getting the phages there.

All in all though, I must say I am still very fascinated by MuTaTo. Those Israeli scientists can rest assured that they have an unrepentant, ‘crazy’ antivaxxer cheering them on.

Am I the only one sensing that JT is really bowing to Joel. Is good old Joel really such a big fish in the Choir. Wow!

I may to add to his post that bacteria are totally capable to fight bacteriophages. They, for instance, synthesize restriction enzymes, that cut phage DNA into pieces. CRISPR is even better defense. (They consist parts of genomes of phages that previously infected the bacteria) Bacteria would come quite quickly resistant, too.

@ Aarno

Thanks. I didn’t know about CRISPR (I’m awfully out-of-date on molecular biology).
And I was wondering if I remembered correctly that bacteria could be resistant to phages. Since the phage needs a specific bacterial protein to attach and invade, any mutation to this protein may potentially render the bacterium immune to the phage.
Although, I wonder: since the bacteriophage can itself evolve to keep up with the bacteria’s change, the kinetics of resistance acquisition may be slower than for antibiotics.

@Athaic Most phages actually inject their DNA into the bacteria, because of cell walls. Bacteria can exchange DNA with other (conjugation) and even accept it from killed bacteria (transformation). If plasmid containing resistance genes has F(ertility) factor for conjugation, its could be shared with others.

1) The name is JustaTech, not JT.

2) It’s called being polite, as Dr Harrison has earned my respect. It’s not “bowing down”.

3) I have got a whole lot else going on, Greg, and don’t choose to spend all my time attempting to explain things to you just to have you rudely and nastily throw them away without even considering the information I’ve provided you. I’ve got a life beyond this website.

4) I am getting really, really tired of you putting words in my mouth. Aren’t your statements strong enough to stand on their own without lying about what the rest of us have said?

2) It’s called being polite, as Dr Harrison has earned my respect. It’s not “bowing down”.

For the life of it, I will never understand the obsession around here with bowing down to Joel. It sounds like he reads a lot of book — but c’mon! He supports the mass poisoning of kids and lying about it. How redeemable is that?!

You’ve just been told it’s not bowing down, and you repeat your incrrect version of events.
You remind me of someone I was at school with. Like you, he was a donkey who would repeat wrong things despite being corrected multiple times.

Chris: I should really stop. Looking back at a post from February he wasn’t nearly so annoying and unkind then, but now that he’s shown his true colors I should really ignore him. As they say over at ScienceBasedMedicine, I should drink my cold coffee and eat my stale donuts as penance for facilitating a troll.

The Australian “medical cartel” is coming down hard on a brave maverick oncologist for Thinking Outside The Box when it comes to melanoma diagnosis and treatment. It turns out that his published research was riddled with errors (according to the Establishment, anyway). Apparently this guy thinks ultrasound is a good substitute for sentinel lymph node biopsy in melanoma patients.

“Professor Dixon claims the surgery does not work and comes with serious side-effects, including chronic pain and nerve damage. He argues for an ultrasound examination.

Critics say Professor Dixon’s preferred method of ultrasound examination “failed to diagnose metastic melanoma in the sentinel nodes of 92.9 per cent” of cancer patients.

After Professor Dixon’s articles were published in June, 18 of Australia’s top skin cancer specialists, including the CEO of the Cancer Council, wrote to the journal demanding the papers be immediately withdrawn.

The articles could “result in inappropriate treatment of melanoma patients and to worse survival outcomes,” they wrote in a letter to the journal.

After an investigation, The Australian Journal of General Practice agreed and retracted the papers in October.”

http://theage.com.au/national/skin-cancer-doctor-in-hot-water-after-papers-retracted-20191119-p53c36.html

In local news, I am recovering from a serious ocular muscle sprain due to eye-rolling over an article in our local “free press” rag. A pathologist previously known for a major feud with his university medical center wrote an op-ed in which he suggests that pathologists often over-diagnose lesions as cancer. He claims that a major reason for this is pathologists wanting to please surgeons whose operations generate pathologists’ income.

This is a nifty conspiracy theory except for a few nagging details, like the massive malpractice payouts and jail sentences that would be the consequence for anyone sociopathic enough to rig biopsy results in this manner.

@ Denise Walter

Just curious. Did you ever read Boring’s History of Experimental Psychology. The author’s name was appropriate as the book was extremely BORING. Unfortunately, my copy disappeared years ago or, maybe, I just gave it away? LOL

While I greatly appreciate your appreciation of my efforts, there are those doing a far better job, e.g., Orac/David Gorski; but, more important, is the fact that antivaccinationists/anti-scientists try to make this about individuals not reason and logic. Too often they ignore or twist what I and others write or just attack us.

Yep, Wikipedia is under attack; but I think that says more about the attackers than Wikipedia. There are alternative web-based encyclopedias and they could “attempt” to counter what Wikipedia writes, though scientifically and logically they would fail, which is what science and scholarship does. If an article in a peer-reviewed journal finds a result not to someone else’s liking, they don’t sue, they deconstruct the methodology and/or review other relevant peer-reviewed research and/or do their own research. Suing just confirms, at least, in my mind that they can’t really support their position in any “meaningful” way.

See Marcia Angell’s book “Medicine on Trial” for the problems with lawsuits, that juries often ignore science, thinking the corporation, etc. has a deep pocket, so, heck, why not help someone who is “suffering.” Well worth reading.

Right now I’m basically taking a break from vaccines to catch up on other topics. Current reading a fascinating book by Richard Fletcher (1997) “The Barbarian Conversion”. Story of how Christianity spread in Western Europe from 4th Century to 14th Century. Just happened to come across it at library book sale for $1. About as far away from vaccines and science as I could go, so good for a change??? Also trying to learn basics of Islam. Nope, not converting. I’m non-religious; but as religions have such a huge impact on cultures, etc. fascinating to learn more about them. Maybe I should get back on my meds????? I’ve got a T-shirt with Thomas Jefferson saying “So Many Books, So Little Time.” My sentiments exactly and as my memory not as good as it once was, I have to read shorter amounts at a time to retain. Really frustrating as I have piles of books bought at library books sales and a list that will probably purchase at Amazon.com

@ Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH:

Heh. You KNOW when someone actually HAS the education they claim when they know the jokes and odd references – ( see also Karen Horney, standard deviance and mnemonic rhymes for the 12 cranial nerves! and yes, we were adult students)
Actually the way I can tell that a certain quack is a poseur is because he pronounces so many physiological/ scientific terms wrong ( Oxxam’s razor?) and hasn’t a clue for names in French, Spanish, Italian or German – if you have a PhD, I would guess tat you need to have taken at least one foreign language somewhere and probably, one of those.

Wikipedia is quite their bete noir because it catalogues their education, accomplishments. beliefs and businesses realistically. Quackwatch, Guerrilla Sceptics and SBM are most alarming to them because entries are not subject to editing which would make it PR rather than criticism. It’s been a pet project of mine to follow law suits involving sceptics, journalists and scientists who have been targeted by those who would rather have their critics shut up than show research that solidifies their ideas/ theories. Wakefield for example can’t replicate his work so he sues. Same with the woo-meisters. Null has sued Wikipedia before for 100 million USD and it failed: in order to sue that company successfully AFAIK, a few things would have to change – laws about the internet, rules about public persons and the complainant would need to have verifiable claims not adverts. If your critics tell the truth, it may hurt but you can’t sue over it.

Also, I find Arabic interesting and tried to learn a little “restaurant Arabic” in order to interact with very kind people who work in these places ( I once frequented a place that was closed down – deportation?- in the wake of the first World Trade bombing- long story) there is a new Pakistani place near my house and they are just super to me ( **artwork on walls – consisting of calligraphy in metal cutouts) I have a theory about why this is: when I was a child, my mother used to tell me to especially nice to black people because perhaps some people who look like me – i.e whiteys- were often horrible to them.- maybe Moslems expect derision or neglect because they’ve witnessed it SO I do the opposite. Which often earns me free desserts or samples.

** Islamic art is a subject worthy of study as well.

Hi: I’m fluently bilingual, English and Swedish, lived in Sweden almost 10 years. As undergraduate took four semesters German and French. Unfortunately, they were taught in English, so developed reasonable vocabulary and grammar basics, not conversational. By now have forgotten quite a bit; but still, from time to time, read articles in German or French. I own very large dictionaries.

Hopefully, I will be able to find a course in Arabic taught by someone who really knows how to teach a language, especially pronunciation. Just learning the alphabet should be fun. I already know Greek and Hebrew Alphabets and years ago lived in Japan for eight months, so, on my own, learned about 1200 words (since forgotten) and around 50 of the Kanji (Chinese characters) and the two Japanese phonetic alphabets, katakana and hiragana (also forgotten); but it was fun.

At age of 8 my father arranged membership in local Young Men’s Christian Association. Learned to swim, played volleyball, basketball, and many other activiiies with some Mexican and Afro-American as well as Asiatic kids. Also attended YMCA summer camp, again with kids from various ethnicities, etc. As an undergraduate, knew Palestinians and other Arab exchange students. And my parents never discriminated. We had barbecues where my dad invited fellow workers, include Afro-Americans, and we never used separate plates, etc. However, from time to time I’ve found myself thinking negative thoughts about some group. Probably picked up subconsciously. When I do, I get really angry at myself; but have NEVER allowed it to take hold and influence my behavior; but, sad that i even picked up such stupidities.

If you want to read the absolute best book ever that debunks belief whites built America, that shows the contributions of all ethnic groups, read Ronald Takaki’s “A Different Mirror” 2nd edition. I’ve recommended it over the years to multiple persons.

And I agree that Islamic art is beautiful. Would love to visit the Alhambra and some of the mosques in the Middle East.

I have been going to a restaurant in my hometown for 35 years, Middle Eastern, owner is grandson of last Arab mayor of Jerusalem and also an accomplished artist. If ever in San Diego, try Fairouz, off of Rosecrans on Midway. Near the Sports Arena. Don’t know if should be advertising on this blog; but I assure you I don’t own stock in the restaurant. LOL

Dear Orac,
Would you consider writing a post about breast augmentation via injecting polyacrylamide hydrogel? It is, apparently, not a problem in the US, but it has harmed, maybe even killed, countless women in certain European and Asian countries. Thank you.

@ Greg

I’ve asked once; but will once more. Can you give the reference, e.g., author, title, date, and URL to the quote you used:

“The vaccination exercise and modern cancer therapies are example of two paradigms. Paradigms are renowned far the fierce devotions they spawn. The reasons for this loyalties may be numerous and diverse (incentives, habits, ignorance), but there is no denying their impact.– they make the paradigm resistant to change, and even when it’s proven to be deleterious or outmoded, and in need of being scrapped or replaced.”

You wrote: “That said, Joel brought up a good point that got me musing (I do use that word a lot): He mentioned that the immune system and killer t-cells would also likely attack those phages. He added perhaps phage therapy can work by waking up the t-cells to the problematic cancer cells and even if they are subsequently killed. Still, must say we might not have such a strong insurance if the phages can be killed before they reach the scene.”

First, there is quite a bit of documentation going back to the 1930s and earlier that phage treatment of bacterial infections works in many cases (NOTE. I suggested a book in a previous comment). I was simply hypothesizing that phages need not kill all the bacteria, just reduce them to a level that our immune system, which takes time to reach a level necessary, can deal with. I didn’t state “phage can be killed before they reach the scene” just that once reaching the scene, like any microbe, they will be multiplying at the same time as some are killing bacteria. Our immune systems are amazing, in most cases can defeat most microbes. Unfortunately, some microbes kill us before our immune systems can rev up.

As for MuTaTo therapy for cancer , ORAC has covered it far better than I can. After all, he is an oncologist, not just clinical practice; but an established researcher as well. Try reading what he wrote carefully, though even if you do that I doubt you will either NOT understand it or just plain won’t want to understand it.

Orac (2019 Jan 31). MuTaTo: Is an Israeli company within a year of a “complete cure for cancer”? Available at: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2019/01/31/mutato/

Oh, you did “read” it, even made numerous comments which were countered and you still don’t understand. Golly gee, how come that doesn’t surprise me.

You write: “For the life of it, I will never understand the obsession around here with bowing down to Joel. It sounds like he reads a lot of book — but c’mon! He supports the mass poisoning of kids and lying about it. How redeemable is that?!”

Yes, I am an avid reader, going back to pre-adolescence; but you miss one major point, that I have an extensive education in research methods, philosophy of science (causal theory), epidemiology, biostatistics, and some immunology and microbiology (my name in acknowledgement for proof-reading/editorial suggestions in two microbiology books), so I have the skills to understand what I read. In addition, I love reading history, especially of infectious diseases, and keep up on vaccine-preventable diseases currently prevalent in the world. So, could my conclusions be wrong, maybe, since as opposed to many antivaxxers, I don’t walk on water, don’t believe I have god-like certainty; but, based on an extensive education, tons of reading, etc. the likelihood of my being wrong is minuscule. But keep on calling me and other liars based on your god-like certainty, that despite even, for instance, knowing what a monoclonal antibody is, you are certain you are right. Look up the Dunning-Kruger Effect, too stupid to know you are stupid!

Again, please give reference to the quote you used.

I think it’s just a self quote, Joel, although Greg makes it sound like more than that.

In the MuTaTo thread on 2/10/19 at 7:58 pm, he didn’t use the quotation marks.

Yes, I am an avid reader, going back to pre-adolescence; but you miss one major point, that I have an extensive education in research methods, philosophy of science (causal theory), epidemiology, biostatistics, and some immunology and microbiology (my name in acknowledgement for proof-reading/editorial suggestions in two microbiology books), so I have the skills to understand what I read. In addition, I love reading history, especially of infectious diseases, and keep up on vaccine-preventable diseases currently prevalent in the world

Joel, for over three years now my girls have been taking piano lessons with a very nice 80-plus, retired old lady. We drive to her home ever week for the lessons. Her house although not very far from ours is located in a very posh enclave in our city, and, in fact, you can spot many mansions.

Her house although also costly is quite dated. We are talking linoleum flooring in many rooms, ‘tacky’ wallpapering, solid wood furnitures abounding, and knickknacks and figurines of past galore. Throughout the house you will also find numerous bookcases stacked full with books. I glance at them now and again to find books on The Habsburg, Hitler, Einstein, French Revolution, Chemistry, Algebra, Quantom Mechanics, and so on and so on.

Her husband, an old man that carries a rather stern, abrupt disposition makes good use of the books. Whenever we are there, I can always find him in the living room, reclined on the sofa, and engrossed in one of those books. From the diplomas and certificates on the walls, it appears he was a surgeon. Several times I meant to ask his wife about this, but with E’s Hungarian incomprehension, and with what I suspect might be mild, incoming dementia, I try not to test the skeleton old lady too much with too involved conversations.

Yet, as I mentioned, it always amazes me how her husband is constantly reading. The piano lessons will be at different times, but there I will find him on the sofa peering into a book as if he is about to obtain the most amazing revelation to justify what measly time he has remaining on the planet. On a few occasions I am there in the solarium sitting beside my daughter as she plays, only to be surprised that the old man is not in the living room on the sofa. I am shocked, but as my eyes wander about and then outside, I spot the figure — the frail old man, lying on his lounger with his old man’s hat partly over his face, and buried in his book. I swear he wasn’t there; he couldn’t have been; maybe he appeared out of thin air just to trick me.

Joel, I must confess feeling there is something wrong with this old man’s obsession with his books. I almost feel sorry for him. As I am thinking about him now, I am also imagining you.

With that aside, Joel, in the past I made you mad by referring to you by your last name You mentioned how hurtful that was, and only your dad went by that name. Fair enough – you earned your titles, so I will give you your dues. I will never ever disrespect you again by addressing you by your last name. Still Joel, on the vaccination topic, I can never, ever respect you. We both know that you are a liar. I don’t hate you, Joel, nor would I describe it so much as resentment. I pity you, Joel.

solid wood furnitures abounding [sic]

The concept of quality furniture is “dated”? I see that in addition to being the least competent person to comment on anybody’s mental health, interior design is also above your pay grade. Jesus Christ, go start sunning your anus; it could only be an improvement.

@ Greg

Calling me a liar reflects much more on you than me. To call me a liar means you are absolutely sure you are right, that you have god-like absolute knowledge. Someone else who disagrees with me would say something to the effect that the world is complicated and people of good will might, though well-read in a subject, might have missed some “documents” or misunderstood them; but someone who thinks they have god-like intelligence has to believe everyone else is a liar. Well, I live in San Diego, California. It never freezes here. We have Lake Murray. If you can walk across it without help, then I will accept, despite all my education and reading, whatever you say. Until then, the one I pity is you who is suffering from Delusions of Grandeur.

And as for referring to me by my last name, then stating “Fair enough – you earned your titles, so I will give you your dues. I will never ever disrespect you again by addressing you by your last name.” Are you daft? If you want to give me my dues because i earned my titles, then address me as Dr. Harrison. Calling someone a liar and addressing me by my name as if we are on friendly terms is ABSURD.

Once again, can you give me the reference for the longer quote you included in a previous comment? I’m just curious if you got it from someone else, if so, who they are, or just another of your delusions.

As for feeling sorry for someone who reads a lot, what planet are you from? I guess since you didn’t know what a monoclonal antibody was and a number of other basic items, your motto is “ignorance is bliss,” why bother to really learn about things when your delusions of grandeur genius just lets you intuit what is right.

I will never ever disrespect you

That’s not a verb, brainus.

again

Pull the other one.

by addressing you by your last name.

That’s very white of you, Gerg, given that you don’t proffer one to start with. The rule of holes, dumbass: learn it, live it.

@ Greg

Thomas Jefferson: “So many books. So little time.”

I’m sure if you could go back in time that Jefferson would appreciate your pity at his reading so many books. I can give a list of well-known, accomplished people who were avid readers, all, who would greatly appreciate your pity.

I and many others read Orac and Science-Based Medicine to learn things. And I also learn from commenters, even, sometimes, those I disagree with. Thus, most posting comments to enter into a dialogue and/or so others, non-commenters, have a chance to note rebuttals/refutations, etc. However, besides your making clear you don’t actually study, take time to learn about various issues, just pick and choose whatever confirms your bias, or even just manufacture them, you seem to relish irritating people, getting a rise out of them. If I am correct, this implies you are a very unhappy individual who directs your self anger, inferiority complex, outwards. In psychology one of the classical defense mechanisms is PROJECTION whereby someone like you projects, sees in others, their own faults/flaws. As I’ve written several times, as an old man, I can waste times responding to the likes of you; but all you do is dig an ever bigger hole for yourself.

Yep, I’m sure others would agree with you that we should pity Thomas Jefferson for owning and reading so many books. Yikes!

You would be amusing if it wasn’t the fact that numerous studies have shown that 70 – 80% of Americans are deficient in the basics of science and critical thinking and the Dunning-Kruger Effect which, for many, like yourself, finds that the less people know, the more certain they are they are right.

And as for referring to me by my last name, then stating “Fair enough – you earned your titles, so I will give you your dues. I will never ever disrespect you again by addressing you by your last name.” Are you daft? If you want to give me my dues because i earned my titles, then address me as Dr. Harrison. Calling someone a liar and addressing me by my name as if we are on friendly terms is ABSURD.

And….

March 6, 2019 at 12:51 PM

Feel free to keep calling me Mr. Harrison, just shows your need to attempt in your pathetic way to insult someone. Reflects more on you than on me. Mr Harrison was my father who I was very close with. I am either Dr. Harrison or Joel. Don’t really care which.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/?s=Mmr+Danish+study

PS: Squirrel is correct; that reference was indeed a self-quote. And Dr Harrison, Joel, Dr Harrison, you are still a liar.

While in a previous comment to a previous article, I did give the option of Dr Harrison or Joel, your immense denseness apparently missed the above where I clearly stated that calling someone a liar and addressing them by their first name as if on friendly terms is absurd. Calling someone a liar is certainly not a display of any type of friendship. However, again, to call me or anyone else a liar implies that you are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN YOU ARE RIGHT, that is, you have god-like certainty, something us mere mortals refer to as Delusions of Grandeur. Keep on digging yourself an ever deeper hole.

And once again, a simple request: Reference to the longer quote you gave???

My oldest friend, who recently passed away, friends for almost 65 years, was a staunch Libertarian, while I recide on the Left. We didn’t consider each other dishonest, just focused on different aspects of a complex world. By the way, he read far more books than I did; but when he suggested a book, if I had time, I read it and vice versa, so I’ve read F.A. Hayek (founder of Libertarian economics) and he read Eric Fromm’s “Marx Concept of Man” which debunks what Americans believe Communism is. What people call Communism reminds me of prior to the fall of the iron curtain, East Germany calling itself the Democratic Republic. It was neither Democratic nor a Republic. Neither is current Iran a Republic. Labels may serve as red flags; but seldom reflect reality. The point is that people, like yourself, form beliefs, once formed, regardless of how little factually based, defend them. While I was raised to believe that a real man admits his mistakes, most people don’t, which is why, despite overwhelming evidence, most police and DAs defend against release of a convicted innocent person.

And, once again, while I can’t be absolutely certain, calling me a liar implies you believe you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT rather than accepting that I, in good faith, based on my education, experience, and reading, have a different opinion from you. In addition, your need to attack others integrity, to get a rise out of them, implies that you are a very unhappy frustrated individual who gets all or, at least, some satisfaction from irritating others rather than contributing in a positive manner to an open dialogue. Again, keep digging your hole ever deeper.

Being called a liar by you is like being buzzed by a gnat. No big deal, just a minor nuisance that can be easily swatted away.

Yep, I’m sure others would agree with you that we should pity Thomas Jefferson for owning and reading so many books. Yikes!

Joel, I don’t pity you for reading a lot or having an ‘insatiable thirst for knowledge’ in as much as I pity you for why you read a lot and have an ‘insatiable thirst for knowledge’. And the contradiction of you lying about the vaccine matter tells me all that I need. The fact that our piano teacher’s husband who loves his books so much, but is so oblivious to everything around him including the parents who enter his home also speaks to his motive.

And what makes you believe I am oblivious to things around me? For instance, I belong to a local YMCA with people from at least 36 different nations, different ethnic groups, different religions. I often, after working out, join some of them for coffee or lunch. I am a regular blood donor, though in my mid 70s, hopefully will soon donate for the 100th time. As regular donor, often see same people, so, after donating, eat snacks and converse with them. How many times have you donated blood? I sometimes attend local seminars and even have sat in audience watching our city council in action. In addition, I have, in the past, actively worked in political campaigns, stuffing envelopes, knocking on doors, etc., and have been involved in political protests against, among other things, the Iraq War and when younger one of my roommates was president of chapter of SDS and led protests against Vietnam War, etc. In past I collected food, served meals at soup kitchens, etc. What have you done? The past few years, due to minor health problems, I have been less outgoing; but, am considering volunteering for something next year. And I do read a lot, keep up with current affairs, subscribe to several magazines, and have bookmarked several alternative news websites, including UK, Canada, France, and Sweden. Fluent at Swedish; but French and German require a dictionary. And, though many of my longtime friends have passed, still keep in touch with some in UK, Sweden, and Canada. And I have travelled extensively and lived longer periods of time in five other nations, Sweden almost 10 years, Canada two years, Israel six months, Japan eight months, and Philippines six months. How many other nations have you lived in? How many other languages do you speak/read?

And when young, took piano lessons and actually played guitar, made money playing in rock group at local high school and junior college dances. Later, for many years, people used to invite me to parties where others required to bring food, plates, etc. I was asked to bring my guitar. Unfortunately, a couple of years ago, arthritis became so bad in my hands that I can’t play guitar anymore, so gave it to a friend. And I often went to nightclubs and concerts with friends. Since I don’t drink, became designated driver, they paid admission fee and for dinner. Being a non-drinker has many advantages.

You are so full of shit, making assumptions about another person. You focus on one comment, ignoring all the other points I make. You brought up a comment from an earlier article on what I prefer being called; but, ignore that you, in a comment on this article, said you would respect my achievements, which, of course, means using my Dr. and ignore that calling me a liar goes against using my first name as if we were on friendly terms, just exchanging ideas. Calling someone a liar is certainly NOT friendly. You call me a liar when I can back up my opinion with 100s of documents, together with the education and training to understand them. You call me a liar without knowing anything about me except you disagree with what I write, assuming, thus, that you have god-like certain knowledge. And, I would be willing to bet that I am much much more aware of the world we live in than you.

By the way, when they were alive I made sure my parents and grandparents got all necessary vaccines, including yearly flu, pneumococcus, tetanus, etc. I loved them as much as humanly possible, they were good people. Do you really think I would advice those I loved most to get vaccines if I thought they were harmful? And, I have always advised my closest friends to get vaccinated and to get their kids vaccinated. Why would I lie to them? You are totally deranged; but a typical example of someone who lacks knowledge, unhappy in life, so deludes himself (Dunning-Kruger effect) into thinking has perfect knowledge and attacking/irritating other people, rather than enter into a civil exchange/dialogue to learn from each other. I must be getting old, as I keep repeating myself, though aware that nothing I say will have any effect on you.

As I wrote, you are amusing, just keep digging a deeper hole and, still, can’t answer a simple question: What is the reference to the longer quote you used or did you write it?

Quite a spiel there, Joel. I must confess something: I am starting to find you even more pitiful than our piano teacher’s husband. You come across as more ‘conflicted’. Anyway, I am getting bored with these exchanges and see no point in continuing.

As to the reference, indeed I wrote it. It was a self-quote.

@ Joel A. Harrison

I must be getting old, as I keep repeating myself

You are fine. The need for repetition is due to some faulty component at the other side of the communication channel.

@ Greg

The fact that our piano teacher’s husband who loves his books so much, but is so oblivious to everything around him including the parents who enter his home

In other words, you were pissed off because he wasn’t busy acknowledging your presence. I’m sensing a pattern.

It didn’t occur to you that maybe not interfering with his wife’s business was his way to show his wife that he was trusting her, but was available should the need arise?
Also, for some people, it’s the polite thing to do. You don’t go poach someone else’s guests/customers/friends. Why would he pester his wife’s guests? They/you were not his guests.
For the length of time of the piano lesson, his house was his wife’s house, and he was just part of the furniture.

The way you described both the wife and her husband was interesting. There are similarities with how you react about autism.

What happens when one’s project to build a better world is also a bid to build a better, ‘bigger’ self? What happens when the two starts conflicting? Decisions, decisions….

Le’s see here. If one pays attention, one can see this guy is full of shit. He is 70 and his parents and grandparents regularly got vaccines, THAT DID NOT EVEN EXIST. ORAC is so full of shit his eyes are brown…

^ Oh, wait, the Gravatar was too small for me to immediately recognize. This fellow has been around picking his toes in Poughkeepsie before.

Joel, I don’t pity you for reading a lot or having an ‘insatiable thirst for knowledge’ in as much as I pity you for why you read a lot and have an ‘insatiable thirst for knowledge’.

And what reason does your dog-snot-filled head imagine that to be?

Narad, strange that anyone would be concerned about someone’s ‘dog-snot-filled head’. Anyway, your query was addressed in a comment that is pending mod. What can I say — I am heavily under the clamp of Orac’s censorship.

@Joel
I don’t envy you for your math and science expertise. If I envy you about anything, it’s that you were in a band and can play guitar. I figure math and science are just expanded forms of 1+1=2. I consider I have enough requisite intelligence that if I were to study hard enough, I could get most of it..

Music, on the other hand, always strikes me as so beautiful and mysterious. There is something daunting about the artistry that I fear no matter how hard I work it may escape me.

Joel, what’ are your rock influences? Which bands inspire you? Also, how would you compare music to the sciences?

I figure math and science are just expanded forms of 1+1=2.

Well, that intrepid voyage into number theory was a good chuckle to put myself to sleep with. Please define addition when you have a spare moment..

@ Chris:

I have mixed feelings about whether we should respond to trolls or not ( although, it’s basically a person’s choice):
— Old School Psych would hold that, by doing so, we’re reinforcing their actions which should lead to an increase in activity. Similarly, it may make them think that they’re important or that their questions are meaningful or novel. Which is probably quite accurate.
— Or SIWOTI and we have to fix everything. I can agree somewhat with this because it recognises that many readers are silent or might have only appeared of late or are intermittent viewers of our work. Thus sceptics can use the opportunity to educate newbies and lurkers. It shows we DO have answers for altie questions.
Similarly, it is a chance to exercise their critical thinking skills. Thus, they are using the scoffers to learn how to educate people here and in other venues (thus, they aren’t totally a waste) We can observe how the nay-sayers react and how they torture facts and data to present their skewed version of reality.

Personally, I will not engage with frequent flyers because I’ve already responded enough for a lifetime.. If a new woo appears and presents a novel method of trolling or seems to be teachable, I might react.

Yes, but what she said did show how ridiculous they were. Plus, like many, like me, she must really need to use a pencil and paper to make sure to have the correct number of zeroes. And she did not really need to look greedy. 😉

Though it make me wonder how they would feel about calculators.

You have no right to judge someone else illness and how they choose to treat it. We are how many years into the “war on cancer” and yet two of the 3 main treatments used are the very things that cause cancer. Many people have beat cancer after the mainstream leaves them for dead. In the end ones health is a private matter regardless of how public your practice of medicine. Practice remember? You are a sad sack human. Cancer can strike anyone alive today as we have poisoned are air, land and water. Children today are getting more cancer than anytime in history. Is that genetic? You clearly have too much fluoride in your pineal gland, you may want to do a detox for that condition. In the mean time have some respect for privacy.

Cancer can strike anyone alive today as we have poisoned are [sic] air, land and water.

Except for homeopathic water.

Toni Bark died yesterday. I knew her tangentially. To me, she was a kook and a quack. I also have been battling cancer for nine years. I believe in science. It has kept me alive. Many well-meaning people have suggested that I do this or that therapy (including going to the same quack “immunotherapy” joint in Switzerland or wherever the hell it is). I know most of these folks really believe in this quackery and it’s sad to me. I have asked the quack-remedy recommenders to stop. They make me angry at times.

I have no ill will toward Toni Bark. I think she did real damage to families with her quackery. But the people who bought into her inane theories were already inclined to believe such idiocy. We can’t stop that, and in the age of Trump, the lunacy and conspiracy theories have only grown. It’s a dark time in many ways. All that said, I should have been dead five years ago given my aggressive cancer. Surprisingly, I’m still enjoying life and riding my bike up mountains almost every day. Thank you doctors, researchers and science.

I’m glad to hear you’re doing well. My cousin is a long term survivor as well.

Toni Bark worked very hard to convince people that vaccines were dangerous and that alt med solved health problems but I too am sorry that she ( most likely) suffered greatly and died and that her surviving son is grieving. It shows that medical prevaricators can be victims of their own misinformation as well as harming others

Earlier today, Gary Null mentioned her demise ( Gary Null Show, PRN.fm, 20 minutes in) saying that he offered his services to her but that she chose the “orthodox route” instead. Usually when a famous person dies, he says the same-:he could have saved Coretta Scott King, James Brown or Arthur Ashe or other well-known performers/ politicians but they refused him so they died. He discusses her work and includes a clip of her speeches.

Woo-meisters will even use stories about compatriots’ deaths to advance their PR. Sick fucks.

Yep you are a lowlife bro. You’ll get yours, it’s a shame we don’t train in the same gym then we could go a few rounds in the Octagon and I could give it to you myself. The problem with people like you is that in real world you don’t say stuff like that it’s only on line and then you go and watch porn and play video games like most poor excuses for men do these day’s.

Earlier today, Gary Null mentioned her demise ( Gary Null Show, PRN.fm, 20 minutes in) saying that he offered his services to her but that she chose the “orthodox route” instead.

What better homage to Bark’s career could there be, than to blame her (and her disturbing lack of faith in the alt-med cause) for her own death?

We should probably add “look at the date it was written” to the intelligence test. Most of the newcomers to this blog seemed to have failed that.

“Dr. Hardin B. Jones, a former Professor of Medical Physics and Physiology at Berkeley, California, concluded after over 25 years of research not only that chemotherapy, radiation and surgery do not work and do not prolong a cancer patient’s life, but patients receiving these types of oncological treatments in many cases die much sooner than those who choose to be untreated. Treated patients also die a much more painful death.”

“People who refused chemotherapy treatment live an average of 12 and a half years longer than the people who are receiving chemotherapy,” wrote Dr. Jones in the journal of New York Academy of Sciences.” >>>>>If your’re calling her opposition to vaccines quackery, I suggest you do some more research.By research, I mean, of the studies that have nothing to gain by telling the truth, unlike those who are bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical industry. Have a little chat with honest Pediatrician and you will find that their un-vaccinated patients are much healthier than the vaccinated children.Talk to the parents that have vaccine injured children. I myself have experienced what a vaccine can do to a child…where there is a risk, there should always be a choice. Stress is a killer and the last thing she needed was to battle her husband over her children’s vaccines. Once you’re vaccinated, the damage is done and I commend her for fighting to protect her children.

The fact that he reached this conclusion decades ago only supports that the medical system is incompetent for doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

This woman has just died and you insult her by calling her a quack. Have some respect and propriety! You may not agree with all of her opinions. I certainly don’t, but I knew Toni Bark and she had great respect for other people’s opinions, even when she disagreed with them. This is more than you do, and shows why she was a better person than you are. Shame on you!

Have you actually read the post, which goes back to November?

It expresses sympathy for her cancer, and addresses directly the harm she caused by promoting pseudoscience. Both legitimate points. It’s sad that she does, and I feel for her family.

It’s also sad that she caused harm by promoting misinformation.

Still spreading your filthy lies eh Dorrie Dear? You should have accepted my invite to the Vegan Lunch in Honolulu. Would have been way more healthy than the crap you ate at the dinner in Waikiki. But then you being dumb as a rock would never know this.

I read the post and was horrified by the disrespectful tone towards a woman who was a MD and a mother.

Do all science zealots have such a lack of respect for their fellow human beings?

I guess that’s how they can support mandatory vaccination.

If your argument is “do not criticize people who are MDs or women,” or “say nothing that’s not reverential about MDs and women,” maybe you should lead by example and not come in calling people “zealots”?

I understand that you don’t want Dr. Bark criticized. I expect others understand why the criticism is warranted.

Zealot is a lot less offensive that some of the thing you folks are saying. Aren’t many of us zealots about one thing or another?

Not because she’s a woman but because she was a woman who enriched humanity with her presence!

Since the COVID-19 lock down, Google is censoring sites that don’t support the BIG Pharma agenda, so your site is the first one that comes up when we search for Dr. Toni Bark to see what happened to her.

It’s just as shocking for us as it is for you:-)

Since the COVID-19 lock down, Google is censoring sites that don’t support the BIG Pharma agenda

And you ascertained this how?

Turns out that Bark’s mock-medical scamming site, The Center for Disease Prevention & Reversal, has not been updated to acknowledge that its founder made the mistake of following her own advice, and is therefore dead. It still advertises her vibrant health to advertise her various grifts:

<

blockquote>Dr. Bark has been the medical director for various departments and hospitals and has extensive post-residency training in aesthetic medicine, nutritional medicine, and classical homeopathy with the top trainers in the various fields.
She is certified in Lipodissolve and Mesotherapy and has created the “ultimate facial” -a combination of ultrasonic dermabrasion, ultrasonic and electrical stimulation, and transdermal delivery of anti-oxidants and vitamins through electroporation.
Dr. Bark has had a successful private practice in preventative medicine and anti-aging medicine, including aesthetics, since 1994. In addition to the aesthetic procedures, Dr. Bark performs metabolic profiling, involving looking at insulin resistance, thyroid function and hormonal assessments for men and women. She has been using bio-identical hormones since the early 90’s with great results. Dr. Bark is an athlete, dancer, and is active in the circus arts.
In 2005, Dr. Bark graced the annual list of “Top Doctors” in Chicago Magazine. Her research and practice have been covered extensively in both local and national media.

<

blockquote>
The nearest to an acknowledgement of mortality is this:
Dr. Bark is currently on an indefinite sabbatical due to health concerns. Should you wish to be placed on a call back list, please email us

Could it be that Resp.Insol. dominates Goofle seaches for news about Toni Bark simply because most medfraud scam-sites are quietly pretending that she’s still alive?

It’s not an insult. She was, in fact, a quack. She spread and promoted baseless conspiracy theories. That helps no one. Especially in this day and age when we have the entire Executive branch of our government and its online and media minions doing the same. None of it is helpful. It’s not a matter of disagreeing with opinions. It’s spreading bogus information. That is damaging to our society in ways that far exceed health care. Spreading disinformation undermines our society and our democracy.

You are not a quack. You are a sick demonic excuse for a human being

I think this could use some elaboration. I mean, in The Exorcist, it was Pazuzu. On the other hand, in Supernatural, there are a variety of demons, some merely clerical. If you could sort this out, I might subscribe to yall’s newsletter.

Nope. Not going to stop knocking her.
She turned people away from effective treatments and discouraged vaccination. People have almost certainly died as a result of her “advice”. She deserved every bit of the slamming she received.

And those who did NOT get vaccinated are living a much healthier life!! Thank God for warriors like Toni. “Dr. Hardin B. Jones, a former Professor of Medical Physics and Physiology at Berkeley, California, concluded after over 25 years of research not only that chemotherapy, radiation and surgery do not work and do not prolong a cancer patient’s life, but patients receiving these types of oncological treatments in many cases die much sooner than those who choose to be untreated. Treated patients also die a much more painful death.

“People who refused chemotherapy treatment live an average of 12 and a half years longer than the people who are receiving chemotherapy,” wrote Dr. Jones in the journal of New York Academy of Sciences.”

And those who did NOT get vaccinated are living a much healthier life!!

This hoary and disproven trope? This has been researched. The only difference in health is that antivaxxers get more VPD’s and suffer more sequelae as a result.

Dr. Jones died over forty years ago

The clumsily worded “quote” also appears to be apocryphal.

This made-up unsourced report from Dr Jones has been going around the alt-med human centipede for so long it’s hard to identify the original fabulist.

Oh, it’s a real sentiment, albeit exaggerated, but a faked quote. In other words, Dr. Jones said something like that, but with nowhere near as much certainty. The original quote dates back to 1956, though, and it’s important to know the history. Chemotherapy was truly in its infancy back then, and there was still controversy over whether it could extend the lives of patients with some kinds of cancer. Peter Moran, a retired Australian surgeon, looked into the whole thing sometime around 2005-2007; so this faked quote has been around at least that long:

I decided to find out what this was all about. Some were quoting this as a reason to avoid cancer treatment.

I have tracked down the Hardin Jones presentation to the Academy of Science in 1956 (!!!). It is to this that all web sites repeating the claim refer. It contains numerous statistics on treated and untreated cancers, the most detailed of which refer to breast cancer. I have obtained a copy of this paper and there is no such statement anywhere within it!!

What did Hardin Jones really say?

He most definitely had a dim view of the cancer treatment of his day, saying: “It is most likely that, in terms of life expectancy, the chance of survival is no better with than without treatment, and there is the possibility that treatment may make the survival time of cancer less” (page 331). But that is as far as he goes.

Hardin Jones also offered no evidence at all in support of his conjecture that survival could be impaired by treatment. On the contrary, several of the studies he quotes suggest quite marked survival benefits for treated patients over untreated, but he challenges such interpretations for a variety of reasons that I am unable to fully check without the original papers. Some may well be valid considering the nature of this data; some are probably not (see below).

He also conceded that cancer treatment might have important palliative and symptomatic benefits, even if survival is not guaranteed, saying that “life itself may terminate abruptly” as the result of the effects of untreated cancer (p331).

Other statements attributed to him, e.g. that he and his wife would never accept conventional treatments for cancer, must have been made elsewhere, if genuine. No other sources are offered, however.

How right was Hardin Jones?

Hardin Jones’ views (the documented ones, as opposed to the alleged) were actually not far off the planet once he is placed in the context of his times. It happens that in the late fifties and early sixties there was some ‘therapeutic nihilism’ in relation to the treatment of cancer, especially breast cancer.

Despite numerous trials of different surgical operations for breast cancer, with and without radiotherapy, survival rates stayed frustratingly much the same (chemotherapy was still in its infancy and not mentioned at all in the Transactions paper – another area where truth seems to have been dealt with rather loosely).

In addition, death rates of treated breast cancer patients did not seem to level out at those of the normal population at five or even ten years, as might be expected if patients surviving for that long were likely to be then cured.

Hardin Jones used this and other data to build a whole statistical theory proposing that “— the death rate for all kinds of cancer remains nearly fixed from the moment when cancer is identified —” (p314).

And:

How wrong was Hardin Jones?

While Hardin Jones was part right, his data and his overly pessimistic views are very much a product of his times.

One obvious indication of this is that the overall five year survival from breast cancer in the studies he examined was a dreadful 25 per cent, whereas NCI statistics for 2002 give an overall (all comers) five year survival of about 80% [4]. Some of this difference will be simply due to “lead time bias” i.e. longer survival simply due to most cases being diagnosed earlier in the course of their illness, but it illustrates the very different times.

Hardin Jones was working with data from very early in the last century, mainly from four studies containing the remarkable numbers of 651, 100, 64, and 100 untreated breast cancer patients along with a treated group. These were published in 1926 (!), 1937, (no reference given), and 1937 respectively. With the advanced cancers generally treated in those days, it is likely that most of these patients would be incurable even today.

None of the studies he examined were properly controlled trials. Well-planned clinical studies of any kind were still rare in those times, and it would also have been quite unethical even then to randomise very destructive cancers to a “no treatment” group, as demanded by any reliable comparison of treated with untreated patients.

Where, then, did the untreated patients come from? They were those who “refused operation or who had already advanced to an inoperable state” (p321). There are innumerable possible misleading influences in such studies. One is that breast cancers reaching a very advanced and inoperable state locally will include many slow growing, locally malignant cancers with little metastatic potential, where survival can be surprisingly long, if also made utterly miserable by enormous malignant masses, ulcers or cancer-en-cuirasse.

Nevertheless, as pointed out above, it is likely that even in the treated breast cancer groups the natural biology of the cancer was mainly determining length of survival (as applies with many cancers today), and treatment played a largely palliative role. It is also fairly certain in hindsight that the apparent survival benefits from treatment in some of the studies e.g. of cancer of the cervix were real effects, and Hardin Jones very reluctantly does allow this possibility (p323).

The primary objective of medical treatment has always been to cure the patient permanently of their cancer, with palliation a close second. Hardin Jones was determined to argue that cancer always went its own way regardless of treatment, and dismissed contrary evidence whenever found. He even dismissed data favouring the cure of some subgroups of cancer patients, such as a survival curve identical to that of a normal population, by suggesting that they represented “cases with a milder type of disease than is usually reported” (p323). Even if true, that may simply mean that those cancers have been caught before they have been able to metastasise. That remains a primary objective in the treatment of solid cancers and the implications for the patient are the same.

Hardin Jones made a number of such judgements while never himself ever being involved in cancer treatment or clinical research. He was a physiologist and statistician, attached at the time to the Atomic Energy Commission in Berkeley, California.

So Hardin Jones wasn’t even an physician or cancer scientist! (The specialty of oncology did not exist in the 1950s)

My take on Hardin Jones:

And it is here where many of the anti-chemotherapy quotes by reputable scientists and physicians originate, albeit often in exaggerated forms. For instance, one of the most famous of these statements is from a man named Hardin Jones, who is quoted as saying, “My studies have proved conclusively that untreated cancer victims actually live up to four times longer than treated individuals.” (Indeed, if you Google Hardin Jones’ name and this statement—or just his name—you will find this quote cited in many different contexts. Frequently articles quoting Jones on these issues will claim that he published these statistics in his article in Transactions, New York Academy of Science, series 2, v. 18, n.3, p.322. As Peter Moran has pointed out, however, this particular study dates back to 1956 and says no such thing.

There’s no doubt, however, that Jones had a dim view of cancer treatments of his day, but he was not alone. Five or six decades ago, after the hope of the late 1940s that using alkylating agents would cure many cancers had been crushed and improvements in survival from cancer had been shown to be frustratingly elusive, there were a lot of cancer doctors who were despairing that cancer could ever be cured with chemotherapy. Interestingly, Jones used his data to build a statistical model proposing that “…the death rate for all kinds of cancer remains nearly fixed from the moment when cancer is identified…” That sounds a lot like lead time bias. Jones was, however, somewhat prescient in proposing that the biology of the tumor is arguably the prime determinant of survival, even with treatment. In any case, I tend to agree with Dr. Moran that Jones’ pessimistic view was a product of his times.

This pessimism continued into the 1960s. Indeed, one of the more interesting aspects of DeVita’s article is a series of anecdotes about how dimly the medical profession viewed chemotherapy in the 1960s and how skeptical most doctors were that any cancer would ever be cured with chemotherapy. At the time, there was no specialty known as medical oncology, and doctors who administered chemotherapy at hospitals were viewed as “underachievers, at best.” As DeVita describes, very respected physicians and chairs of departments viewed chemotherapists as the “lunatic fringe.” Louis K. Alpert, who had published one of the earliest reports using nitrogen mustards to treat lymphoma was routinely referred to by the house staff and the faculty as “Louis the Hawk and his poisons.”

History! The state of the art in oncology was far different 64 years ago than it is now! Of course, over the course of the 1960s, scientists at the National Cancer Institute and elsewhere started to have success curing hematologic malignancies with chemotherapy, and chemotherapy went from radical cutting edge experimental (even fringe) medicine to standard-of-care in oncology.

“On the contrary, several of the studies he quotes suggest quite marked survival benefits for treated patients over untreated, but he challenges such interpretations for a variety of reasons that I am unable to fully check without the original papers.”

And them papers are now a piece of cake to find. Good times.

Thanks for the background.

Yes, she did get chemotherapy. I am sorry she had this aggressive cancer and I am sorry that she passed away.

Sure, I was such a vulture that I could see into the future when I wrote this post three and a half months ago. I even made it largely sympathetic to Toni Bark but used the rhetoric her son was laying down about her cancer as a cautionary tale about the limits of how much we can control our health.

Of course, you didn’t read beyond the title and maybe the blurb. You just reacted.

To those who are new to this blog, it is recommended that you read the actual content starting with the day it was posted. You realize that it does not reflect well when you do not notice how many months ago that this article was posted.

Not knowing how date notation works is worse than not knowing the worst internet secret, which is “who is Orac?”.

Due to consumer hoarding of clue bats we are experiencing a shortage. Well, we don’t know why but they are, perhaps mistaking them for family size packs of sanitary supplies during the COVID-19 outbreak. As a result clue bats may be unavailable to those who really need them. Expect localized outbreaks of cluelessness. Eventually the supply will catch up to the demand. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Make sure you are the first to go get your Corona virus vaccine then Mr Science, but know this there are over 30 000 pier reviewed studies supporting Dr Toni Barks stance on vaccines but because of academic dishonesty and establishment lies you will never grow the balls to research this fact and just love parroting bad science ridiculousness. You will learn one day but obviously not today. Go back to taking selfies and posting them on face book because what you are saying about this lady isn’t science based, its as scientific as CO2 being a poison, That is as scientific as this mainstream world gets today, but when the stock market crashes and the banks get another bail out then maybe just maybe people like you will wake up to the rubbish that mainstream media pumps into your brain……your ideas are not your own and Edward Bernays will be looking at you from the grave and smiling to himself thinking that you are a job well done another Zombie, next you will be saying that Trans women are real women because they say so.

For your personal safety we strongly recommend that you use velcro closures rather than laces for your shoes.

Dr Hotez discussed how funding for the SARS vaccine he was working on “dried up”. Possibly this research may be part of the solution to the current problem of COVID-19. MSNBC

Interestingly, Dr H is one of the anti-vaxxers’ chief objects of derision and hatred because he, as a vaccine expert/ developer, knows that vaccines didn’t cause autism like that which his daughter has and is a vocal advocate.
Perhaps if anti-vaxxers get scared enough – into straight thinking- they may want to thank him someday.

Make sure you are the first to go get your Corona virus vaccine then Mr Science

Anyone with a palate knows that it only takes one Corona to be immunized from it.

but know this there are over 30 000 pier reviewed studies supporting Dr Toni Barks stance on vaccines

The barnacles have spoken.

ORAC, Offict and Pan are so frightful of Del Bigtree and his experts that ORAC Offict and Pan have repeatedly turned down live on air/video debates about vaccines.

Dr Toni is gone now but Del has other experts.

Come Orac/Gorski, Offict and Pan, let’s see you guys debating Del’s experts live on how safe and effective vaccines really are.

There is no reason to subject oneself to a group that will lie and employ the Gish Gallop:
https://respectfulinsolence.com/?s=debate

If they want to be honest and submit the best of their data that has been published in the medical literature, then that is okay dokay. Though they usually do not like it when they are told that they are doing science wrong. Just like Brian Hooker did, and how did that work out for him? Not very well: https://ecf.cofc.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2002vv0472-118-0

Well put! I am watching the Truth About Vaccines and the evidence supports vaccines are not only unsafe because of the known and unknown toxins and viruses they contain, they don’t do what they claim as evidenced by vaccinated people getting measles, etc.

I’d like to see them debate modern cancer treatment, hacking off body parts and treating patients with chemotherapy and/or radiation which kills most of the patients.

All you pro-vaccine nuts are going to get your way now that there will be mandatory vaccinations after this Covid-19 hysteria. The culling of worthless eaters and “basket of deplorables” has begun.

Wait! What vaccine, oh do please tell where it exists. Or is this just another thing you made up just because it gets your heart to beat faster?

I’m not sure why you talk about “vaccine injured” children, when there’s a vaccine injury compensation court that has paid billions of dollars in compensation and there’s CDC pages with vaccine side effects listing neurological disorders, anaphylactic shock, gastrointestinal disorders, and many other horrible side effects…you mention the fact as an impossible or questionable thing. What kind of doctor are you? For sure not one with a vaccine injured child. Dr Tony Bark is just one of the doctors who opened her eyes and decided to fight for those usually attacked by people like you, thanks God a lot of doctors and people in general are opening their eyes in front of the evidence that is undeniable.

We acknowledge that adverse events happen. We just reject the claims that they are far more common than we are being told. Severe adverse events are on the order of less than one per million vaccinations.

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blockquote>…you mention the fact as an impossible or questionable thing.

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blockquote>
Because it is questionable.
A lot of these “side effects” have been investigated and found out to be nothing more than sheer random chance. In addition, antivaxxers claim that vaccines cause harms that are, to put it politely, dubious.

In this article which surprisingly was written a few years ago “In some cases the cell lines that are used might be tumorigenic, that is, they form tumors when injected into rodents. Some of these tumor-forming cell lines may contain cancer-causing viruses that are not actively reproducing. Such viruses are hard to detect using standard methods. These latent, or “quiet”, viruses pose a potential threat, since they might become active under vaccine manufacturing conditions. Therefore, to ensure the safety of vaccines, our laboratory is INVESTIGATING ways to activate latent viruses in cell lines and to detect the activated viruses, as well as other unknown viruses, using new technologies.” https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/biologics-research-projects/investigating-viruses-cells-used-make-vaccines-and-evaluating-potential-threat-posed-transmission

So the problem is that science doesn’t know what it doesn’t know and is therefore unable to provide a safe vaccine.

The link you looked at talked about a hypothetical potential problem that may arise in new vaccines and the need to avoid it. It nowhere suggests a problem with current vaccines.

You took the wrong lesson from it. What it shows is that vaccine safety is taken so seriously that even theoretical issues are discussed and planned for.

Every good scientist will admit what they do not know. Apparently this is lost on you… Dunning Kruger and all.

Chris they don’t know if there are cancer causing viruses in vaccines but they inject them directly into children bypassing all the body’s defense mechanisms. You don’t see a problem with this? Do you have children?

I wonder if COVID-19 was in the flu vaccine as some suspect? Since they don’t know what is in vaccines, there won’t be any way to prove this, but it is likely since COVID-19 contains animal DNA which does not infect humans naturally.

Since you brought up the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, please give us the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers those injuries are worse than those caused by the actual diseases. Just give us those studies that show greater injury from the present American MMR vaccine compared to actually getting measles or mumps. Or just tell us how the DTaP vaccine causes more harm than pertussis, diphtheria or tetanus: https://www.oregonlive.com/health/2019/03/unvaccinated-oregon-boy-6-nearly-dies-of-tetanus-racks-up-1-million-in-bills.html

Also, who and what Orac is teh internet’s worst secret. Perhaps you should figure that out yourself.

Also, this is an example of a PubMed indexed study. It is about the real causes of autism spectrum disorders: https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(19)31398-4?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0092867419313984%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

Here is an article about that paper: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/genes-and-autism-more-evidence-that-it-has-nothing-to-do-with-vaccines/

Now go get the actual factual evidence that vaccines cause more harm than diseases.

I work in healthcare and took care of a man in his 50s who couldn’t walk because he wasn’t vaccinated as a child and he contracted meningitis at the age of 10 which didn’t just take away his ability to walk but to see clearly or to succeed in academics. His mother took care of him for most of his life and was in her 80s when I came calling. Yeah, I vaccinated my child and he is now 11 and excelling in school in math and science. I don’t want to hear a bunch of fear mongers yelling about things they really don’t understand.

Science is merely a tool that provides information. In the hands of someone honest the truth is told. In the hands of someone dishonest the results are manipulated to say what they want.

There are many ways of skewing the results. The way vaccines pass safety tests is instead of testing against a placebo, they are tested against the toxin in the vaccine, like aluminum for the Hep B vaccine. Then there is no difference in negative outcomes between the control group and those who took the toxin.

Not only is SV40 still in vaccines, there are other retroviruses from animal and human source such as the XMRV gammaretrovirus https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2010.00147/full that is linked to prostate cancer https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/retrovirus-linked-prostate-cancer/

Consider the story of Alexander Horwin who died of a brain tumor August 10, 1998 at age two which they proved beyond a doubt was caused by SV40 in a vaccine he received http://www.ouralexander.org/index.htm. Alexander’s parents encourage other parents to exercise informed consent before agreeing to any medical intervention for their child, which is what Dr. Bark fought for.

We must have the right to chose to subscribe to allopathic medicine or not. You have the right to take vaccines believing they improve your health, and I have the right to refuse believing they cause illness and disease.

I do look forward to the day when the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven from God, and the tabernacle of God is among men, God dwells among us, and wipes away every tear from our eyes, and there will no longer be any death, mourning, crying, pain, for these things will have passed away and all things made new. Those who overcome will drink from the spring of the water of life without costs, but the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, immoral persons, sorcerers, idolaters and all liars will be burned in the lake of fire and brimstone. Rev. 21: 1 – 8

Science is merely a tool that provides information. In the hands of someone honest the truth is told. In the hands of someone dishonest the results are manipulated to say what they want.

There are many ways of skewing the results. The way vaccines pass safety tests is instead of testing against a placebo, they are tested against the toxin in the vaccine, like aluminum for the Hep B vaccine. Then there is no difference in negative outcomes between the control group and those who took the toxin.

Not only is SV40 still in vaccines, there are other retroviruses from animal and human source such as the XMRV gammaretrovirus that is linked to prostate cancer.

Consider the story of Alexander Horwin who died of a brain tumor August 10, 1998 at age two which they proved beyond a doubt was caused by SV40 in a vaccine he received. Alexander’s parents encourage other parents to exercise informed consent before agreeing to any medical intervention for their child, which is what Dr. Bark fought for.

We must have the right to chose to subscribe to allopathic medicine or not. You have the right to take vaccines believing they improve your health, and I have the right to refuse believing they cause illness and disease.

Not only is SV40 still in vaccines, there are other retroviruses

SV40 isn’t a retrovirus, Sherlock. BTW, is there some reason you’re posting the same shit over and over again?

Wait, what? Some nutflake is trying to revive the whole XMRV laboratory-artefact collective brainfart from 2012. A XMRV-causes-CFS dead-ender? Or has Judy Mikovits been grifting again?

Dr. Mikovits is active again. Apparently she has a book to sell.

And in part she’s hawking it by promoting COVID-19 misinformation.

I’m impressed. This current incarnation of Mikovits has dropped the Heretic / Outsider / Renegade pose; now she’s back to being a mainstream scientist, renowned among her peers, with an insider perspective.

Cynical interpretation: Mikovits realised that she’s not going to get rich grifting off antivaxxers. So she jumped aboard the “Covid / CDC / Fauci / China / Bill Gates / 5G” far-right conspiracy scamwagon, in the hope of at least becoming a Fox & Friends opinionator.
To the extent that this is a separate scamwagon from the antivax one, in the current phase of convergence.

I do look forward to the day when… the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, immoral persons, sorcerers, idolaters and all liars will be burned in the lake of fire and brimstone

Kate sounds nice.

Retroviruses exist in two forms; as RNA-containing virions which bud from a producing cell and can infect another cell, and as DNA proviruses which may be active or silent. SV40 is a DNA retrovirus because it inserts its genome into the host’s genome becoming part of the cells. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK7934/

THEY (those who think they know but in reality know nothing) consider it to be silent because it is dormant in most people until the immune system is weakened and it proliferates inducing brain and bone cancer, malignant mesothelioma, and lymphomas. There is strong evidence that SV40 is a transforming virus, and moderate evidence that exposure could lead to cancer in humans under natural conditions. The polio vaccines were contaminated with SV40 because it survived the vaccine inactivation treatments and conservative estimates indicate that up to 30 million people in the US may have been exposed from 1955 to 1963, and millions worldwide.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC452549/

“SV40 is a DNA retrovirus” – oh dear, Kate E. / solitairecat really is a moron. Her determination to construct her own reality using her own definitions should come as no surprise, given that her usual haunts are More-Jewish-than-Judaism Old-Testament-literalist blogs. I am just wondering how she found her way from there to here. Perhaps she confused “genetics” with “Genesis”.

The dispositive link to a chapter on retroviri (conspicuously lacking in any reference to SV40) is the icing on the failcake.

This is not biblical exegesis, Kate; this is reality where words do have meanings.

You make it sound like cross contamination in a lab is a rare event, but virulent cells always contaminate less virulent ones in a lab setting. For example, the HeLa cells contaminated 18% of cell lines and “the problem extends far beyond HeLa cells”, but given what the cells were fed “a witch brew” of blood from human placenta, beef embryo and fresh chicken plasma, they may have morphed into something new https://vaccinecancerconnection.wordpress.com/2016/08/16/hela-cells-the-continuing-contamination-of-cancer-and-vaccine-research/

“Recent estimates suggest that between 20 and 36 percent of cell lines scientists use are contaminated or misidentified – passing off as human tissue cells that in fact come from pigs, rats, or mice, or in which the desired human cell is tainted with unknown others. But despite knowing about the issue for at least 35 years, the vast majority of journals have yet to put any kind of disclaimer on the thousnad of studies affected.” https://www.statnews.com/2016/07/21/studies-wrong-cells/

So the information provided by science in this case isn’t factual at all!

virulent cells

Sounds like “virulence” is another word with its own special meaning in Kate’s exegetics.

Science is merely a tool that provides information. In the hands of someone honest the truth is told. In the hands of someone dishonest the results are manipulated to say what they want.

There are many ways of skewing the results. The way vaccines pass safety tests is instead of testing against a placebo, they are tested against the toxin in the vaccine, like aluminum for the Hep B vaccine. Then there is no difference in outcomes between the control group and those who took the toxin. Very misleading indeed!

Consider the story of Alexander Horwin who died of a brain tumor August 10, 1998 at age two which they proved beyond a doubt was caused by SV40 in a vaccine he received http://www.ouralexander.org/index.htm. Alexander’s parents encourage other parents to exercise informed consent before agreeing to any medical intervention for their child, which is what Dr. Bark fought for.

We must have the right to chose to subscribe to allopathic medicine or not. You have the right to take vaccines believing they improve your health, and I have the right to refuse believing they cause illness and disease.

We must have the right to chose to subscribe to allopathic medicine or not. You have the right to take vaccines believing they improve your health, and I have the right to refuse believing they cause illness and disease.

I’ll skip the obvious adage. It’s totes kewl to see a monotheist spouting postmodern relativism.

The biggest error was that the SV40 problem was fixed in the early 1960s. The Horwin family would need access to a time machine.

By the deer Kate, lots of people just make stuff up, and you were gullible enough to suck it all up.

“SV40 was inadvertently administered to humans between 1955 and 1963, when hundreds of millions of people in North and South America, Canada, Europe, Asia, and Africa were vaccinated with both inactivated and/or live polio vaccines, found to be contaminated with SV40. This accident occurred because these early polio vaccines were produced by growing polio viruses in naturally SV40-infected monkey cell cultures. It has been reported that in the former USSR, SV40-contaminated polio vaccines were used until 1978, whereas in Italy up to 1999, when the Italian Health Public Organization switched to SV40-free anti-polio vaccines as indicated by the World Health Organization (WHO) guidelines, following a note from the British National Institute of Biological Standards and Control. IN OTHER COUNTRIES, THE RISK OF SV40 CONTAGION THROUGH POLIO VACCINES IS STILL A PROBLEM AS THESE VACCINES ARE PRODUCED USING SV40-POSITIVE MONKEY CELLS.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6669359/

Apparently they just make stuff up, possibly to cash in on their grief. They claimed to have filed a lawsuit, but there is no record of them on the US Court vaccine cases.

The child lived in Los Angeles, CA. That is in the USA:
https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/first-do-no-harm-fda-regulations-limit-treatment-options-terminally-ill

Also his father, Michael Horwin, is a lawyer. Which is not a medical field: http://members.calbar.ca.gov/fal/Licensee/Detail/219686

They were grieving gullible people who were taken in by Burzynski. And now the father cashes by with a scammy “Cancer Monthly” thing, which is a very sparse website.

1) “Frontiers” (your first cite) publishes conjectural research.
2) Linking to a website by a family that is convinced that SV40 in a vaccine caused their son’s brain tumour is hardly proof.

In the case of Alexander Horwin, both parents had worked in the medical field, and gathered evidence that proved beyond a doubt his brain tumor was caused by SV40 in his vaccination. The brain tumor that Alexander suffered took 6 to 12 months to grow, so began to grow between November 1997 and March 1998, and he was diagnosed August 10, 1998, having received the DPT, IPV, OPV and Hepatitis B vaccines within weeks or months of when his symptoms began. Alexander received 16 vaccinations from 2 months to 17 months old. http://www.ouralexander.org/burton.htm

In the case of Alexander Horwin, both parents had worked in the medical field, and gathered evidence that proved beyond a doubt his brain tumor was caused by SV40 in his vaccination.

Oddly enough, the link you provided says nothing of the sort, instead — shades of Kim Rossi — claiming vertical transmission.

What does “work in the medical field” mean? What they are not is doctors. And, if they were trained scientists, they probably would have said so. They could be chiropractors’ receptionists.

Ah, so the Horwins fell for Burzinski’s fraud. Their gullibility does not foster great confidence in their creative theories about oncology and etiology.

And, if they were trained scientists, they probably would have said so. They could be chiropractors’ receptionists.

I looked at this earlier, and the history is pretty vague. The husband was admitted to the California bar in 2002, which suggests that his strategy was laid promptly. Raphaele touts herself as “MA, MFS.” Naturally, she has a Web site. Michael seems to be churning out law-review papers; I haven’t checked whether he’s tried litigating anything.

A direct causation can not be proven because the vaccine manufacturers have no idea what was injected into whose body, thus will not take responsibility for cancers with SV40 in the population! Here’s how they put it “the epidemiological data for cancer rates in people potentially exposed to SV40-contaminated vaccines are inadequate to evaluate a causal relationship. This conclusion is based on the lack of data on which individuals actually received contaminated vaccines, the unknown dosage of infectious SV40 present in particular lots of vaccines, the failure to know who among the exposed were successfully infected with SV40, the inability to know if the vaccine “unexposed” cohorts may have been exposed to SV40 from other sources, and the difficulty of monitoring a large population for cancer development for years after virus exposure.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC452549/

In their letter to congress, the Horwin’s provide evidence that they did not have SV40, and the placenta did not contain SV40, so the only way Alexander could have contracted it was in his vaccinations.

Isn’t weird that almost 6 months after this post went online, suddenly some people seem to decide they have something to add to the discussion?

Thank you Meg, Narad, and Smut Clyde for making me giggle. It helped bring my jaw back up.

Like Dr. Bark, I hoped my healthy diet and lifestyle will strengthen my immune system and protect me from getting cancer. Dr. Bark’s sugar free diet should have starved the cancer, which is why she was surprised with her diagnosis. Like Dr. Bark, I have a sugar free diet which I hoped would protect me from cancer. The mistake we made was not realizing the virulance of the viruses that we have been exposed to in vaccines. A mistake I plan on not repeating by educating myself as to the characteristics of the enemy, and possible ways of either eliminating it or in the event that is not possible, prevent it from becoming cancer.

“ SV40 mainly exerts its functions by inactivating two of the best-known tumor suppressors, P53 and retinoblastoma (Rb). This leads to stabilization of the P53 protein and loss of its normal apoptotic gatekeeper function. Binding of SV40 to Rb and its family members, P107 and P130, leads to further perturbation of cell-cycle function by a loss of suppression of E2F transcription factors. Both of these effects result in highly proliferative and uncontrolled cell growth, often leading to malignant transformation in mice. In addition to interactions with P53 and Rb, large T and small t antigens have been shown to interact with a variety of other proteins to further enhance the ability of the SV40 oncogene to form tumors in mice.” https://academic.oup.com/ilarjournal/article/57/1/44/2363598

To keep the animal virus(es) living within us at bay, we must take measures to boost our immune system and not do anything that weakens it. Stress should not impact our immune system if we are healthy, but many of us are not healthy because of exposure to toxins in our food, water, medications, and vaccines.

One way to boost the immune system is by fasting https://www.flowin.com/index.php?page=blog_post&blog_id=79

Lugol’s iodine has an immunomodulatory effect on the human peripheral blood immune cells, altering “the transcriptional immune signature of cells and induces stronger cytokine and chemokine reponses. Accordingly, iodine/iodide levels that optimally saturate the cells should therefore enhance the immune system and improve trafficking, clearance of infection, and support the process of reproduction.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5694785/

I hope you are all taking measures to protect your health, not just trusting your BIG pharma god to save you!

Or maybe, just matbe, a sugar free diet doesn’t work.
Given that our bodies convert most food into glucose for energy, why would following a sugar free diet work at all?

Yes. Wanting to imagine that cancer is the fault of either the victims – they weren’t pure enough – or an evil big pharma isn’t a good way to face reality. Cancer happens. Mother Nature isn’t your servant.

SV40 contamination in the 1960s was not linked to cancer in humans. As far as I know it was never even hinted as linked to the cancer that killed Dr. Bark.
https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/sv40

A direct causation can not be proven because the vaccine manufacturers have no idea what was injected into whose body, thus will not take responsibility for cancers with SV40 in the population! Here’s how they put it “the epidemiological data for cancer rates in people potentially exposed to SV40-contaminated vaccines are inadequate to evaluate a causal relationship. This conclusion is based on the lack of date on which individuals actually received contaminated vaccines, the unknown dosage of infectious SV40 present in particular lots of vaccines, the failure to know who among the exposed were successfully infected with SV40, the inability to know if the vaccine “unexposed” cohorts may have been exposed to SV40 from other sources, and the difficulty of monitoring a large population for cancer development for years after virus exposure.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC452549/

The author of this blog post actually did a deep dive into the details of the data on this a few years ago.

The short version is that while diet matters, it decreases the risk of some cancers, you’re overstating the effect. Note that Orac looked at the data in depth; your link isn’t that. It gives the opinion of a scientist.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2016/09/26/diet-and-exercise-to-prevent-cancer-what-does-the-evidence-say/

And yes, you’re engaged in a dude of victim blaming, accusing most people with cancer of causing their own harm.

“ORAC is decades behind the new evidence.”

Not really. Nothing you have said is original, it is the same lame claims that we have heard over and over and over for almost two decades (I “met” Orac on UseNet).

You are just proving that you are gullible, especially when you do the common and very boring “blame the victim” tactic.

Kate E.:
“which they proved beyond a doubt was caused by SV40 in a vaccine he received”
“which they proved beyond a doubt was caused by SV40 in a vaccine he received”
“which they proved beyond a doubt was caused by SV40 in a vaccine he received”
“evidence that proved beyond a doubt his brain tumor was caused by SV40 in his vaccination”

Also Kate E.:
“A direct causation can not be proven

The chop article you reference admits SV40, of animal origin, was in the polio vaccine and is found in cancer biopsies but deny responsibility because “SV40 was present in cancers of people who either had or had not received the polio vaccines that were contaminated with SV40”. This ignores two facts – viruses of animal origin to do not cross species naturally and when we are exposed to viruses we shed them in our feces exposing others around us. These two facts prove that the origin of all SV40 in the human population is from vaccines.

Their claim that “SV40 has not been present in any vaccine since 1963” and erroneously conclusion that “people with cancers who were born after SV40 was no longer a contaminant of the polio vaccine were found to have evidence for SV40 in their cancerous cells” is contradicted by this article https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6669359/

“SV40 was inadvertently administered to humans between 1955 and 1963, when hundreds of millions of people in North and South America, Canada, Europe, Asia, and Africa were vaccinated with both inactivated and/or live polio vaccines, found to be contaminated with SV40. This accident occurred because these early polio vaccines were produced by growing polioviruses in naturally SV40-infected monkey cell cultures. It has been reported that in the former USSR, SV40-contaminated polio vaccines were used until 1978, whereas in Italy up to 1999, when the Italian Health Public Organization switched to SV40-free anti-polio vaccines as indicated by the World Health Organization (WHO) guidelines, following a note from the British National Institute of Biological Standards and Control. IN OTHER COUNTRIES, THE RISK OF SV40 CONTAGION THROUGH POLIO VACCINES IS STILL A PROBLEM AS THESE VACCINES ARE PRODUCED USING SV40-POSITIVE MONKEY CELLS.”

The claim that “epidemiologic studies do not show an increase risk of cancers in those who receive polio vaccine between 1955 to 1963 is because A direct causation can not be proven because the vaccine manufacturers have no idea what was injected into whose body, thus will not take responsibility for cancers with SV40 in the population! Here’s how they put it “the epidemiological data for cancer rates in people potentially exposed to SV40-contaminated vaccines are inadequate to evaluate a causal relationship. This conclusion is based on the lack of data on which individuals actually received contaminated vaccines, the unknown dosage of infectious SV40 present in particular lots of vaccines, the failure to know who among the exposed were successfully infected with SV40, the inability to know if the vaccine “unexposed” cohorts may have been exposed to SV40 from other sources, and the difficulty of monitoring a large population for cancer development for years after virus exposure.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC452549/

See how tricky they are, they lie to convince us that vaccines are safe when they don’t have a clue what is in vaccines, and because they have not clue they can never be held accountable for any illness and diseases they cause. Imagine having a product that allows you to earn enormous profits from yet take no responsibility for adverse effects!

Here’s what they were citing: Cancer Res. 2005 Nov 15;65(22):10273-9.
Some oral poliovirus vaccines were contaminated with infectious SV40 after 1961.

“All the vaccines were SV40 free, except for vaccines from a major eastern European manufacturer that contained infectious SV40 [….]These SV40-contaminated vaccines were produced from early 1960s to about 1978 and were used throughout the world.”

Are you claiming a child in the late 90s got a vaccine from before 1980?

Kate E. has gone from Dr Bark’s cure-cancer-with-diet to SV40 to Lugol’s Iodine. This is not well-ordered thinking.

Cancer, SV40 and iodine are all connected if you’re outside the allopathic medical system which keeps you fastened to ancient beliefs.

Kate: “To keep the animal virus(es) living within us at bay, we must take measures to boost our immune system and not do anything that weakens it.”

So if came into contact with a bat, the most common way rabies is transmitted in the USA, you will not avail yourself to the modern rabies vaccine, but just let nature take its course. Because you have “perfect” health due to your diet.

Cool! Be good with your strongly held convictions to the end.

ERVs are the Enemy Within. Genetic Fifth-Columnists, waiting for a moment’s lapse in one’s dietary vigilance that could be their opportunity to burst out of hiding and apply their oncogenic repertoire of terror.

This doesn’t sound like a relaxed way to live.

Not quite sure what version of “ERV” you speak of (by the way, never a fan of random initials since I worked with PSD data, which was two sound force measurements and a company finance date variable, and yeah I was analyzing damage from sound… the initials for sound have been changed). But obviously no one who hates vaccines would risk their lives with one created by Ian Plotkin who used human cell lines from a baby aborted over fifty years ago in Sweden.

Though if, like Dr. Bark, if Kate came down with cancer after following the “perfect diet” will turn the “victim blame” on herself.

Being the stinker that I am, when the group finance guy wrote us a memo about the dreaded “PSD” that we had to meet. I went to him and asked why we needed to be worried about Power Spectral Density and/or Pressure Sound Density (which is no longer used due to obvious confusion). Could he please clarify that bit. And which one was so important to finances because they are different.

He yelled at me that he did not need to taught how to right a memo. 😉

By the way, I never found what his “PSD” meant. I assumed it was “date”, but it could have been “data.” But it was the same project where an administrative assistant asked me why I had not done the analysis of the vehicle’s first test on the road. I had to ask him had it been rolled out of the factory. He said “no.” So I then had to ask him how could I take data from road tests if the thing was still not fully assembled. Um, yeah.

Then I went on maternity leave. Though due to circumstances beyond my control, I had to focus on other things. Trust me I feel for the mothers who with Covid19 who are separated from their babies at birth. So much. And my kid was only in that hospital for a week… not two. And I got to visit him.

ERVs are the Enemy Within. Genetic Fifth-Columnists, waiting for a moment’s lapse in one’s dietary vigilance that could be their opportunity to burst out of hiding and apply their oncogenic repertoire of terror.

I can imagine Bill the Cat saying “Gag! Pol! Env!”

Smut, under germ theory ERV’s are the enemy without, but according to cellular theory the enemy is within. Normally only human viruses are the enemy within, but viruses with animal DNA like SV40 and COVID-19 break the rules, being engineered viruses, injected into us, bypassing our bodies defense mechanisms.

There’s pretty much no chance that I will get rabies given that there are only 3 cases each year in the US. I’d have to investigate to see if the rabies vaccine is the best solution if I should contract it.

viruses with animal DNA like SV40 and COVID-19

I’m not sure whether to count two or three fails in those eight words.

… If you’re going to wait until you contract rabies to decide what to do, you’ll die. We can’t treat it once you contract it. To prevent this, between 30,000 and 60,000 people are treated with postexposure prophylaxis each year. I guess you won’t be one of them, since you’ll be too busy “researching” your options until it’s too late.

Some fault Toni with being on the wrong side of science, but whenever I heard her say anything about vaccines she was always explaining what science found or statistics of what had happened to those who had been vaccinated. In engineering, which is my world, using science is a good thing. My take on vaccines is that we are still in the infancy of vaccine design. If vaccines were automobiles the year might be 1883. But the analogy is not good, as no single automobile has been as lethal as a vaccine.
What I am saying is, that as an engineer, vaccines still have to many massive flaws. No production. Back to planning. In the engineering world people like Toni save lives. We admire those people.

Scott Mudie: “vaccines she was always explaining what science found or statistics of what had happened to those who had been vaccinated.”

Cool! Then now because you are an engineer you would know how get real evidence! I say this as a former mechanical engineer with applied math juice. Could you now provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule caused more harm than the diseases?

Now remember “qualified” means no lawyers, finance folk, journalists or geologists. Reputable means that no one who has been stripped of their legal right to practice medicine. Plus does not have a “cart” icon on their website so you can by their merchandise.

So, seriously, do tell us how the IPV is more dangerous than polio. Then tell us how the modern American MMR is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella. Then really really tell us how the DTaP and Tdap is more dangerous and cheaper than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis: https://www.oregonlive.com/health/2019/03/unvaccinated-oregon-boy-6-nearly-dies-of-tetanus-racks-up-1-million-in-bills.html

Show us those PubMed indexed statistics from reputable qualified researchers that it would be safer and cheaper to skip vaccines.

And because you’re an engineer doesn’t prohibit you from investigating health matters, nor invalidate your opinion!

Actually, yes it does. Too many engineers out there think they are medical geniuses, including the late Andy Cutler. He died prematurely because he took his own advice.

@ Chris:

I used to think that engineers were especially prone to switching fields or expertise ( that is, believing themselves to be experts in areas they never studied) BUT I’ve noticed that other fields produce many “stable geniuses” as well: just looking at the anti-vax arena alone, business grads are especially prevalent as are those in liberal studies, computer science and social sciences- that last should know better because they usually need to study statistics and research design.

It appears that one or two of our early failed experimental AI code bases were accidentally released into the wild. We apologize for the inconvenience.

This whole site is such a joke 😂😂😂 you’re an angry man with WAY too much time on your hands. Who hurt you as child???

So you come to a six month old article just to post insults? How lost are you? Perhaps it would help if you actually read the article.

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