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Antivaccine activists and the deadly measles outbreak in Samoa

There is a deadly measles outbreak in Samoa. It is fueled by low vaccine uptake sparked by a tragic case in which two children died because of a screwup mixing up vaccines. Antivaxers have used this case to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

As the long Thanksgiving weekend wore on, it occurred to me that there’s one really big story going on that normally I would have written about but, for whatever reason, I haven’t written about yet. I’m referring, of course, to the deadly measles outbreak in Samoa. Make no mistake, when I say “deadly,” I mean deadly. The latest news stories I’ve found tell the tale:

Five people have died overnight in Samoa, bringing the death toll to 60 as the measles epidemic continues to kill the most vulnerable.

Of the 60 that have died, 54 were children under the age of 15, while 25 were babies aged less than one year old. Three deaths have now been recorded for adults over the age of 19.

On the Facebook page for the government of Samoa:

The toll has been horrific, a total of 4,071 cases thus far, with 60 deaths. That’s an incredible death rate for measles, almost 1.5%, and the included table tells an even grimmer story. The vast majority of the deaths were children under 4, 52 out of the 60 deaths thus far. As surprising as this might seem to those of us living in wealthy, industrialized countries, it is not unusual for a country with the income level of Samoa to have a mortality many times higher than the 1 in 1,000 rate that is usually quoted for countries like the US.

The situation has gotten so bad that the government of Samoa is closing down for two days to dedicate itself to nothing but vaccinating its people against measles:

The government is instructing households with unvaccinated people in it to tie a red cloth or flag in front of their houses near the road to facilitate the identification of households that require vaccination. Meanwhile, international aid is pouring into Samoa:

The government’s closure is the most drastic measure Samoa has taken to combat the outbreak so far. Officials have already begun a mass vaccination campaign aimed at young children and women of childbearing years, inoculating 58,150 people as of Sunday. Schools have been closed, children are banned from large public gatherings, and parents have been urged to bring their children to a doctor at the first signs of illness.

Several countries, including Australia, New Zealand, Britain, and China have sent medical experts and aid, and organizations like the Red Cross and UNICEF are also working to mitigate the outbreak. The U.S. has dispatched a team of experts from the Centers for Disease Control to the island nation to help track the outbreak.

The cause of the outbreak is similar to the causes of measles outbreaks the world over: Low vaccine uptake, fueled by a number of factors, including antivaccine misinformation:

“This is a reflection of a whole lot of factors. People are not so confident in their health system,” Petousis-Harris said. “They have quite a culture of anti-vaccine sentiment there as well.”

Anti-vaccine activist Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a nephew of President John F. Kennedy, visited the country in June, appearing next to officials at Samoan independence celebrations. His visit was “for a program that is not government-related,” an official in the prime minister’s department told Samoan news media at the time.

Here he is with Samoan antivaccine activist Taylor Winterstein in Samoa during that trip:

Lest you doubt my assertion that Ms. Winterstein is antivaccine, here is another Instagram post by her:

View this post on Instagram

Bullying is not ok…except when you publicly question the safety of vaccines. Bullying is not ok…except when you consciously choose not to vaccinate your kids. Bullying is not ok…except when you expose the corruption of the vaccine industry. Bullying is not ok…except when you raise awareness on vaccine injury. Bullying is not ok…except when you stand for medical freedom and informed consent. This week my family have been on the receiving end of extreme bullying, hate mail, abuse and harassment. Worse than anything we have experienced before…and trust me, people have tried to bully and harass us a lot this year. Over the last 6 years of having this public page open where I've grown my audience organically and built a beautiful like-minded community…this is the first time I have ever had to 'turn the commenting off' on my posts. I am committed to sharing the truth, serving my community, planting seeds and sparking minds to get people to question and critically THINK. But I will not tolerate the nasty, vile, bitter, toxicity that continuously hijacks the comments section of my posts. If you're new here and genuine, welcome! I've been posting about vaccines for years and I hope you will take the time to observe and understand before jumping to conclusions. 💗✌

A post shared by Taylor Winterstein (@tays_way_) on


Note the common antivaccine trope that it is “bullying” to criticize antivaxers for refusing to vaccinate or for spreading antivaccine misinformation. In this post, she invokes Nuremberg, a favorite misapplication of the Nuremberg declaration beloved of antivaxers ranging from Barbara Loe Fisher to, Rob Schneider to, well, RFK Jr. himself, complete with tropes about “informed consent” (which in the hands of antivaxers is really misinformed refusal, in which a decision is made based on massively exaggerated or made up risks, made up “toxins,” and a massive understatement of benefits):

Elsewhere, Winterstein also referred to the government effort to vaccinate its population as “NaziSamoa

And here she is complaining about mandatory vaccination in the middle of a massive outbreak that is killing 1.5% of the victims and bemoaning the fact that the government is not instead treating measles victims with massive doses of vitamin A. Here’s the thing. although there is some evidence that vitamin A supplementation could decrease mortality in malnourished patients with measles, there is no evidence that it can by itself prevent measles, and it’s only recommended by some as an additional treatment, not the sole treatment. Moreover, I’d bet that the reason antibiotics are being used in these children is that they’ve either been diagnosed with or suspected of having developed a bacterial superinfection, such as pneumonia, the most common pulmonary complication of measles.

Not surprisingly, Tay’s Way Movement, Ms. Winterstein’s website, is chock full of antivaccine propaganda, nonsense like this:

Take this as your call to action to RAISE YOUR VOICE. Not just if you are vaccine-injured yourself or have a vaccine-injured child, family member or friend but for people who don’t and want to raise their voice on behalf of these precious souls too.
Together we rise. We are here in love and we will HEAR this now.
Too many families are suffering in silence and have gone unheard for too long.
This is a safe space to share from the raw, vulnerable, depths of your heart and soul.
This is a place to give us very personal insight and inspire everyone to learn the risk, investigate and educate before you vaccinate.

Of course, as is often the case, there are reasons why the people of Samoa distrust vaccines. Antivaccine misinformation couldn’t have gained such a stronghold there were it not for a recent tragedy:

Vaccination rates – meaning the number of young children covered – recently dropped to a low of only 31% in Samoa, compared to 99% in nearby Nauru, Niue, and Cook Islands.

In part, that low rate has been attributed to the deaths of two children.

In July 2018, two infants died in Samoa after receiving vaccinations against measles, mumps and rubella, raising local fears over the vaccine itself.

But the deaths were later established to have been due to the nurses mixing the vaccine with an expired muscle relaxant, instead of water.

The two nurses pleaded guilty to manslaughter and were sentenced to five years in prison.

A more detailed timeline of the tragedy can be found at New Zealand’s Immunisation Advisory Centre, and a detailed account of the trial of the two nurses can be found here.

This is a horrendous tragedy. It’s almost unimaginable how a screwup like this could happen. In particular, it took some time for the investigation to determine that these deaths weren’t due to the vaccine but rather to an error in mixing up the vaccines. I bet you know what antivaxers the world over were doing in the meantime. They were making the most of it, playing it up as more evidence that the MMR vaccine was dangerous. In the comments of the antivaccine crank blog Age of Autism, antivaxers were making comments like, “This would be called SIDS in the US of A which of course is ‘never an item for concern.'” Of course, one reading of the accounts would tell you that the deaths of these two Samoan infants was nothing like sudden infant death syndrome. Both babies rapidly deteriorated after being vaccinated. For example, the first baby started to deteriorate during the bus ride on the way home from the hospital.

Interestingly (and not surprisingly), antivaxers have been mostly quiet about the measles outbreak in Samoa. After all, it does rather put the lie to their frequent claims that measles is a harmless childhood disease. Well, most of them have been. There are antivaxers sending vitamins, particularly vitamin A, to Samoa. One can only wonder if Homeopaths Without Borders have already arrived in Samoa.

That’s not all, though. An antivaxer with whom we’ve all become familiar with over the years offered up his own brand of brain dead observations about Samoa that it might well deserve its own post. Unfortunately (for purposes of this post), we mutually blocked each other of Facebook back in the ancient mists of time, which makes it a bit more difficult, given that my backup account appears to be borked. I suspect many of you know what I’m talking about, though. Suffice to say, antivaxers are trying to find ways to blame the vaccination campaign for the high mortality from measles.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]com

308 replies on “Antivaccine activists and the deadly measles outbreak in Samoa”

Of course you don’t want to discuss the fact that the measles Vaccine could have caused this outbreak and the mutated virus caused by the vaccine caused the unusual high death rate. No we wouldn’t want to talk about that now would we. Thankfully MANY intelligent honest people ARE discussing this likely cause of the deaths in Samoa

Dorit can you give your reference for the finding that this outbreak was the D8 strain?

Do you know if they typed all cases in this outbreak? If not, then finding D8 strain in some patients is not all that helpful given the fact that typing of measles cases in the Disneyland outbreak found that 38% of cases had actually been caused by the vaccine.

A. From a UNICEF report. https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/unicef-delivers-over-260000-vaccines-and-medical-supplies-fight-measles-outbreaks

B. No California cases were vaccine strain. That claim is based on an antivaccine misunderstanding of an article about rapid identification of non-contagious, non-harmful vaccine rash from actual measles during the outbreak. Vaccine rash was not counted as cases because, well, it’s not.

See: https://vaxopedia.org/2019/02/02/about-those-vaccine-strains-in-measles-outbreaks/
In Samoa, the cases are actual measles. And it’s killing children.

By the way, Orac addressed this and other clains about the Samoa outbreak from the antivaccine camp in his recent posts. You may want to read them.

The Samoan government is the source of the statement that the cases have been identified as D8. I figure that they’re the experts.

Do you know if they typed all cases in this outbreak?

Foster will next be demanding to see the long form of the individual lab reports.

If not, then finding D8 strain in some patients is not all that helpful given the fact that typing of measles cases in the Disneyland outbreak found that 38% of cases had actually been caused by the vaccine.

You, in turn, should give a reference for this David Foster.

Of course you don’t want to discuss the fact that the measles Vaccine could have caused this outbreak and the mutated virus caused by the vaccine caused the unusual high death rate.

Why should it be discussed when it clearly isn’t the case? Wild-type measles and low vaccination rates are responsible. Lowered vaccination rates thanks in large part to anti-vaxx activities.

No we wouldn’t want to talk about that now would we. Thankfully MANY intelligent honest people ARE discussing this likely cause of the deaths in Samoa

If you are an example of these “many intelligent honest people” then enough said.

It could have been caused by a Martian bringing Martian Measles from Mars. But we don’t discuss that, because it’s nonsense, just like your claim.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE OF A MUTATED STRAIN OF MEASLES, despite what you and others choose to believe. However, a comment below of a Martian version, well, anything is possible??? LOL

And common sense, something you and other apparently lack, would notice higher rates of measles where vaccination rates are low. Duh???

@ Joel

common sense, something you and other apparently lack, would notice higher rates of measles where vaccination rates are low

You meant ‘high’, I believe. If the vaccine caused measles outbreaks, high rates of vaccination should correlate with high rates of measles outbreaks.

The rate of MMR vaccine uptake has remained remarkably consistent in the US over the past 10 years. So how do you explain the fact that some years have more and larger measles outbreaks? Shouldn’t we expect a consistent prevalence of measles give your theory? Duh.

In part, we are influenced by events elsewhere. There are large outbreaks in other area, especially areas where vaccines rates aren’t as high. I expect you are aware that many of our recent outbreaks happened when people (most, but not all, unvaccinated children) went abroad to areas with measles outbreaks – like Kenya, israel, Ukraine – and came back with measles into communities with low uptake.

Local low uptake – like in the Somali community in Minnesota, where antivaccine activists work hard to mislead people – is the other part. Measles comes into a low rate pocket, and spreads.

Yup. Antivaxxers love to cite “high uptake” but that high uptake is averaged over entire states. Local pockets of low uptake (e.g., Rockland County, Brooklyn) allow for outbreaks if someone brings the measles in from an area where it’s endemic or there’s an outbreak.

So how do you explain the fact that some years have more and larger measles outbreaks? Shouldn’t we expect a consistent prevalence of measles give your theory? Duh.

Well David, is the susceptible population equally distributed with consistent temporal sources of exposure?

@Thomas Milcarek

I’m not sure you understand what the words “intelligent”, “honest” or “likely” mean.

@ Althaic

What I said stands, that where vaccine rates are low, cases of measles are high(er). I used higher because even where vaccine rates are high, there can always be a few cases of those exposed to someone non-vaccinated who had visited abroad where measles was prevalent and among those exposed, some would be unvaccinated and some, for various reasons, e.g., only got first shot, autoimmune disease, weren’t protected. Perhaps, instead of higher, I should have said “epidemic”.

One other things, if a mutated strain of measles existed, one that could circumvent the protection conferred by the vaccine, then, since viruses like measles spread easily (but a plane flight away), one would find high rates/epidemics of measles among those vaccinated. Not the case. Not even close! ! !

@ Joel

My apologies, we are talking at cross-purpose.
I thought you were pointing out that there was a discrepancy between Thomas’… let’s say hypothesis, in this case that the measles’ vaccine starts outbreaks. If that was the case, outbreaks should happen in highly-vaccinated areas, more than in low-coverage areas.
But you were pointing out the efficiency of the vaccine at preventing outbreaks in real life – the strong and verified correlation between vaccine coverage and reduced rate and severity of measles outbreak.

@ Thomas Milcarek.

The strain in Samoa isn’t genotype A but yes; the vaccines are the problem. They are using mainly the Priorix MMR from India & they are vaccinating children already sick with the Measles, based on an excerpt from the insert that it can be used up to 72 hours post-exposure.

This is the same vaccine that caused the Samoan people to decline vaccinating after SEVERAL (not just two) died after receiving the MMR.

The same vaccine of which 6,000 doses of had to be destroyed recently, after being discovered as ‘illicit’ & not stored properly.

They are causing death by vaccinating sick kids. Measles was rarely fatal, even in Samoa; prior to this.

You have no basis for saying this, and it’s jarring that anti-vaccine activists are working to discourage and misinform people in Samoa this way while children are dying from a vaccine preventable disease.

There is nothing suggesting the MMR used in Samoa is dangerous; the vaccine is supposed to be given 72 hours post exposure (which is before disease) as prophylaxis; and the ineffective doses, as you say, were destroyed, not used.

Oh goody, a blatant demonstration of denial and deflection by anti-vaxxers for their part in this avoidable tragedy.

The strain in Samoa isn’t genotype A but yes; the vaccines are the problem. They are using mainly the Priorix MMR from India & they are vaccinating children already sick with the Measles, based on an excerpt from the insert that it can be used up to 72 hours post-exposure.

Priorix is a GSK product and as such, must be manufactured according to regulatory specifications even if it is manufactured in India. You haven’t said why that is a problem or perhaps you’re just jumping on Winterstein’s racist screedwagon. If you are a nurse, it must be in paltry degree-wise. Measles has an incubation period of 10-14 days so they aren’t symptomatic or “sick” so of course vaccinating within 72 hours post-exposure may help considerably to avoid full pathology.

This is the same vaccine that caused the Samoan people to decline vaccinating after SEVERAL (not just two) died after receiving the MMR.

Since this has been discussed here and elsewhere along with easily verified reports, you are intentionally lying, how despicable. It wasn’t several and it was due to incorrect mixture of the vaccine with a muscle relaxant by the nurses so not the vaccine either.

The same vaccine of which 6,000 doses of had to be destroyed recently, after being discovered as ‘illicit’ & not stored properly.

Either dim or dishonest. This is a human error, again not due to anything inherently wrong with the vaccine. You’d prefer improperly handled vaccines not be recalled?

They are causing death by vaccinating sick kids. Measles was rarely fatal, even in Samoa; prior to this.

You are delusional and nasty. You advocate all the time for disease and death and now it’s here, you run screaming with your fingers in your ears, lalalalala I can’t hear you.

You’re delusional. Other people’s suffering won’t make your life easier, so why do you push so hard for it?

No, the vaccine is not the problem. I have only seen antivaxxers saying they are giving vaccines to those obviously infected. Only 2 children died. It was a 5 dose vial that was the problem. Only 60 doses were destroyed after they were stolen. The thieves did not store them properly. In developing countries measles can have a high mortality rate. Anything else you want to get wrong today?

It’s good to see you have abandoned the pretense of not being a disease defender. It will certainly ease the mental burden and effort for your postings here.

Christine, if you are a nurse please turn in your license. What you just said is unethical in the extreme, and a disgrace to the profession.

Samoa vaccine deaths were caused by injecting muscle relaxant to babies. Nurses made a mistake and were convicted (manslaughter, no less).

You fucking deviants got exactly what you wanted in Samoa: lots of unvaccinated children.

At least have the fucking guts to own the consequences as well.

@christine kincaid the two Samoan children who died related to their vaccination died due to nurse error. The nurses mad a mistake and gave them along with the vaccine medication the caused them to stop breathing. A mistake that should never have happened and the all nurses work everyday to use protocols that reduce the risk of harm in administering medication. It could have been a vitamin shot or any other medication, because they accidentally used the muscle relaxant instead of saline. A dreadful outcome and the nurses are rightfully punished.
https://www.immune.org.nz/hot-topic/infant-deaths-samoa-tragic-outcome-error-preparing-mmr-vaccine

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/117952035/nurses-fatal-vaccination-error-in-samoa-was-against-parents-wishes

Measles was rarely fatal, even in Samoa; prior to this.

I am sorry to become so incivil, but Christine Kincaid — shut the fuck up. Your ignorance on Samoan history started at “abysmal” and has descended rapidly. The 1893-1894 measles epidemic killed over 1000 Samoans (out of a population of 34,500). The 1911 epidemic killed about 700.

Delete your account. DIAF.

If they are concluding that the MMR caused the outbreaks or any deaths, they are neither intelligent or honest.

Do you contest the finding that 38% of measles cases from the Disneyland outbreak were actually found to be vaccine-strain measles, so caused by the vaccine?

Rapid Identification of Measles Virus Vaccine Genotype by Real-Time PCR
https://jcm.asm.org/content/55/3/735

"During the measles outbreak in California in 2015, a large number of suspected cases occurred in recent vaccines. Of the 194 measles virus sequences obtained in the United States in 2015, 73 were identified as vaccine sequences."

Any comment on why this finding would still remain “Unpublished data”?

Do you contest the finding that 38% of measles cases from the Disneyland outbreak were actually found to be vaccine-strain measles, so caused by the vaccine?

Oh good grief; we don’t have to contest that “finding” because it wasn’t what they found. To use your words, duh. People were being vaccinated during an outbreak. Epidemiologists, doing what they are supposed to do had to distinguish between recent vacinees and infected with wild-type in order to obtain the most accurate estimate of cases. That is the finding.

Dorit and “Science Mom” both document their ignorance. Those 38% of cases had already been diagnosed as measles cases, they were indistinguishable from wild type measles cases. This is well documented in recent research findings. I understand that it is very difficult for you all to hear this well.

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blockquote>Those 38% of cases had already been diagnosed as measles cases, they were indistinguishable from wild type measles cases.

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blockquote>
Suspected measles cases and they did not get full pathology as measles cases did. They were not included in the final tally of measles cases so you are just trying to deflect from your statement:

Do you contest the finding that 38% of measles cases from the Disneyland outbreak were actually found to be vaccine-strain measles, so caused by the vaccine?

It’s just plain wrong.

Also, Mr. Foster, what in the blazes does the Disneyland outbreak have to do with Samoa? The one thing that it is comparable is how few people were infected due to higher vaccine uptick. The daily attendance of that park is about 50,000 people per day, just one quarter of the total population of Samoa, and is often quite crowded.

The number of deaths from measles in Samoa is now up to 70, and to achieve that the number of measles cases is over a thousand. The total number of measles cases associated with Disneyland was just 147: https://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmatters/2015/12/year-in-review-measles-linked-to-disneyland/

Please explain why that excuses the just 30% measles vaccine uptake in Samoa before the outbreak? Fortunately they managed to quickly get that up to at least 90%, but that should not have required so many children to die to realize the importance of the vaccine for such a dangerous disease.

Mr. Foster often has interesting, wrong and irrelevant ideas. He is stuck on them, and will not be corrected. He apparently has trouble realizing that the United States of American, the United Kingdom and Samoa are all different countries.

He is bringing up an outbreak in the USA to this thread, and in a previous thread about the American vaccines kept trying to bring up something that happened in the UK as if it was relevant. He wanted to use a conspiracy theory about the Urabe strain of mumps to discuss an unethical trial of a herpes vaccine done elsewhere. Nothing to do with any MMR, or whatever… so he was way off track, and really lost in the weeds: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2017/08/29/another-front-in-the-libertarian-war-on-the-fda-rational-vaccines-unethical-offshore-herpes-vaccine-clinical-trial/#comment-16797

At the risk of piling on, not one thing you wrote is true.

The measles virus responsible for the outbreak in Samoa is D8, not the strain in the vaccine.

The causes of the high death rate have nothing to do with the vaccine. Only about 30% of the population of Samoa are vaccinated against measles.

But, I am aware that you are a follower of Jim Meehan and a rabid anti-vaxxer in your own right.

Does he mean to imply that all those who were vaccinated got the measles from the vaccine? In which case there must have been a big push to get them all done in time to create an epidemic. Or that the vaccinated people are fine but they gave the measles to all the unvaccinated people? In which case the vaccine works. Or that there is a special vaccine that was only distributed in Samoa and no other country in the world, designed to reduce the population, in which case he is accusing the Samoan government of murder.

I’m joking. Like many AV proponents, he doesn’t know WHAT he’s saying. Just as long as he can say it loud enough.

… that the government is not instead treating measles victims with massive doses of vitamin A …

This trope betrays a massive ignorance and/or hypocrisy on behalf of antivaccine believers for at least three completely different reasons:
– As already mentioned in the article, vitamin A is not a cure for measles.
– Even worse: administering large doses of vitamin A, especially over extended periods of time (e.g. because parents think this will protect their child against measles) is quite dangerous.
– And to top it off: vitamins and supplements are far more profitable to Big Pharma than vaccines. So it is weird to say the least to demonize vaccines because they make profits for Big Pharma, and at the same time tell people to use vitamins and supplements instead — which are far less effective AND make Big Pharma more money…

In all, I am absolutely appalled to see that even now, with children dying in numbers, antivaccine believers still maintain that vaccines are Bad, and that all doctors must be doing things completely wrong because according to their dogma, measles is benign (and according to many even beneficial).

This trope betrays a massive ignorance and/or hypocrisy on behalf of antivaccine believers

Precisely. The true believers have their alternate reality and nothing will nudge them one inch away from it.

To play devils(advocate, it’s true that populations in not-first-world countries (1) with poor food access have deficiencies in vitamin A, and, it is indeed linked with poorer outcomes with measles and other illnesses.
In this case, combined with other nutritional deficiencies, and I guess, a poorer access to healthcare amenities, about ten times worse (>1 death per 100 instead of 1 per 1000 in our countries). That’s not a trivial difference.
Providing the Samoans with proper nutrition is not a bad idea, but as a prevention measure. Now, it’s slightly too late for the infected children. Food (2) or pills with a proper amount of vit A won’t hurt, but it may not help much.

(1) apparently, even we first-world nations aren’t that good anymore. Cases of scurvy (i.e. vit C deficiency) are on the rise in my country. I recall reading an article by French physicians some decades ago, in which they pointed that many people in Paris don’t have an easy access to fresh fruits, notably agrumes. I guess they were right to be worried.

(2) don’t start me on golden rice. Or first-nations’ waste of food resources.

Re: the initial screw-up

the deaths were later established to have been due to the nurses mixing the vaccine with an expired muscle relaxant, instead of water.

I’m unclear on that part, as ‘mixing’ has two meanings. Does that means the nurses injected the muscle relaxant instead of the vaccine, or that the vaccine comes lyophilized and was re-suspended in it instead of in water?
(checking the given link to the bbc article https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50625680
– and then the following link to the nurses’ sentencing
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-02/samoa-nurses-sentenced-manslaughter-infant-vaccination-deaths/11378494
– ah yes, it was indeed a powder which was put in the wrong liquid)
Of course. The latter makes much more sense as to how this deadly mistake was made.

— sigh– we had a stupid and horrific accident like this in France a few decades ago, not with a vaccine but with an IV saline solution. The (overworked) nurse grabbed a solution of potassium chloride instead of the regular glucose bag. Both types of bags were kept in the same drawer.
Not a nice way to die.

My understanding, reading the detailed account of the trial in the local Samoan media, is that a trainee nurse used a vial of expired anesthetic:

Luse was sentenced to five years’ jail for two counts of negligence causing manslaughter for her role in preparing the fatal mixture contained in the M.M.R. vaccine which was then administered to the infants.

According to police facts tendered in court, standard procedures for preparing vaccines were not followed at the Tuasivi Hospital on the morning of the incident, including a requirement that registered nurses thoroughly check the labels on the components used to mix vaccines.

Luse mixed the M.M.R. vaccine powder with an expired anaesthetic, the Court was told.

“Unfortunately Luse, without checking the vial, mixed the powder of vaccine with what she thought was a proper [substance for dilution],” the facts state.

“It was not.”

Justice Vui found that the vial containing anaesthetic was clearly labelled but not checked.

“That action would have avoided the tragic events that were then followed,” he said.

“[Luse] breached protocols and became grossly negligent in the discharge of her duties.”

The fatal vaccination was performed by a trainee nurse under Luse’s supervision with the syringe and ampule discarded in a rubbish bin.

In the United States, most hospitals have removed vials of potassium chloride from nursing units because of errors where the nurse draws the KCL thinking it’s sterile water or normal saline, and then delivers it IV push to a patient.

In nursing school, we are trained to do three checks against the MAR before administering any medication: check the order when you pull the med from the Pyxis/Omnicell/med cart, check the order after preparing the med, and a third time at the bedside before administering the med.

The 3 checks and 5 rights of med administration are taught for a reason. Med errors are so easy to make, and can have such terrible consequences. If the nurses in this situation had followed standard nursing practices, the error with the muscle relaxant would have been avoided, and an expired MMR would not have been administered.

Orac: ” a trainee nurse used a vial of expired anesthetic:’

This error could be prevented by simply having the nurse read the label out loud to another nurse. The other nurse would then do the same as a double check. This is what happens in Australia.

Same with orders given over the phone by a doctor to a nurse. The doctor must repeat the order to a second nurse, and both repeat the order back to the doctor.

“vitamins and supplements are far more profitable to Big Pharma than vaccines”

You just documented your ignorance.

An MMR vaccine is only given twice in the lifetime of the recipient. Vitamins and supplements are given daily for how long it takes someone gullible to buy them.

You are apparently a full grown adult, so why do you think children are better off if they suffer with a real measles infection is that they really do not have a clue on how horrible/dangerous it is, or that must really hate kids. What kind of person wants a kid to suffer from high fevers, pain, seizures, pneumonia and a real possibility of permanent disability and death?

If you pull the brain dead “MMR causes autism” trick, then you better provide the verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that autism in the USA rose coinciding with the use of the first MMR vaccine which was introduced in 1971. Remember, as I have told you before, it used the Jeryl Lynn mumps vaccine… no other. So don’t bring up the Urabe strain.

Do explain. Is it your ignorance, or that you just like seeing kids suffer? Are you actually celebrating the deaths of at least 70 people from measles in Samoa, and the thousands in the Congo?

Must edit comment: so why do you think children are better off if they suffer with a real measles infection? Do you really not have a clue on how horrible/dangerous it is, or do you really think kids deserve pain, seizures, pneumonia and a real possibility of permanent disability and death?

So much ignorance displayed here and on this site. Vitamin A is considered to be a treatment for measles, in fact a first-line treatment. Pharmaceutical companies cannot patent natural supplements like vitamins etc. Yes there are companies which manufacture supplements and i am sure they make a lot of money for that, as they should. But this is nothing compared to the amount of money coming into the largest vaccine manufacturers like GSK, Merck, Sanofi Pasteur and Pfizer.

Vitamin A is not a treatment, but more of a support because measles depletes nutrients along with depressing the immune system, which makes the child more vulnerable other infections like bacterial pneumonia.

Why do you think it is better to treat a very severe disease instead of preventing it with two MMR doses? Please do give us the economic advantages of allowing a child to suffer from high fever with possible additions like seizures, encephalitis, pneumonia, other secondary bacterial infection, permanent disability (blindness, deafness, paralysis) and death. Explain to us why this paper is wrong:
J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.

Remember pharmaceutical companies also make antibiotics for those secondary bacterial infections and lots of respiratory supplies to keep kids supplied with oxygen as their lungs fill with fluid due to pneumonia. Unfortunately there is no treatment for encephalitis.

Also, Mr. Foster, think about your reasons for wanting children to suffer from high fevers and lots of other injuries from a full blown measles infection. Because only a sadistic adult would let a child suffer that much.

But don’t name them antivaxxers:

Crazymothers @Crazymothers1

Dear Media,
Please retire the use of the term “Anti-vaxxer.” It is derogatory, inflammatory, and marginalizes both women and their experiences. It is dismissivemy simplistic, highly offensive and largely false. We politely request that you refer to us as
the Vaccine Risk Aware.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/anti-vaxxers-needled-after-asking-to-be-called-vaccine-risk-aware_n_5de688dce4b0913e6f861f59

No, but we are the Vaccine Preventable Diseases Risks Aware.

We politely request that you refer to us as “the Vaccine Risk Aware”

Ah, someone obviously read Orwell’s 1984. What a wonderful example of contemporary Newspeak! Then again, it figures: anti-vaxxers already live in their own universe, so they might as well adopt their own language.

“Largely false ”

Wow. That’s a new one.

Sorry, Crazymother but you are in fact Bat Shit Crazy if you think the term anti-vaxxer is anything other than the whole unvarnished truth about what you are: despicable people.

How about a compromise position – instead of “Anti-Vax” (a truly vicious moniker), “Child Abuse Advocate” can be used instead, thus uniting the common allies – those who promote disease to cause death and suffering of children and those who take more direct action. Remember, to an antivaxxer (sorry – “Child Abuse Advocate”) it really doesn’t matter what causes a child to suffer or die – as long as AV/CAAs get to enjoy watching it happen.

The situation in Samoa is horrific, and with the precipitous fall in vaccination rates in recent years utterly, depressingly, predictable.

An internet acquaintance of mine who lives down there is doing what he can.. organizing vaccinations, buying (he’s already spent thousands) and distributing baby formula/food etc to the families of the affected. You know, stuff that is actually helping people, not posting bottles of Vit A pills.

He’s not a particularly delicate fella.. but I know some of what he’s seen/experienced with some of the sick (particularly infants) has really shook him up.

A. In addition to your great points, UNICEF did send vitamin A in for the outbreak, to use in hospitals as needed.

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/unicef-delivers-over-260000-vaccines-and-medical-supplies-fight-measles-outbreaks

B. Apparently part of the problem is that people are delaying going to the hospital because of alternative treatments and being discouraged from it. Here is one local article.
https://www.talamua.com/on-the-frontline-no-doctor-wants-to-see-a-child-die-says-dr-tito-kamu/?fbclid=IwAR13WCfLrkkvpX-2UXQQXQXZVEUB7XswiWNVr5mbKLLuLRkNUXp-BJ7aCw4

C. Dr. Ilannelli has written about one of Jim Meehan’s rants, but there has since been a second.
https://vaxopedia.org/2019/12/01/jim-meehan-supporting-a-farmer-helps-explain-the-deaths-in-samoa/

I agree with the comment above that it’s horrific.

Thanks for the links, notably the vaxopedia one. I learned a few things and will be less stupid tonight.

” it seems like Meehan thinks that most of the folks on Samoa are immunosuppressed and shouldn’t be vaccinated!”
It seems like Meehan holds on to a racist attitude that brown people, who live in generally undeveloped countries (i.e., places where you can’t get to a Whole Foods) are all sick, poor, malnourished, and live in huts. I don’t know whether he’s a racist or not, and I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt on that, but it’s a stereotype – the “natives'”need a white man to come and save them – but lot’s of well-meaning white folk still hold it, including the SfB In Chief.

The parents of at least one of the children who died are publicly supporting MMR vaccination

https://i.stuff.co.nz/world/south-pacific/117952035/nurses-fatal-vaccination-error-in-samoa-was-against-parents-wishes

Unfortunately I don’t think they have a large Facebook Twitter or Instagram following, unlike the regrettable Taylor Winterstein. Her claim to fame is her husband’s sporting career in Australia.. and a string is criticized posts about vaccination and health over the course of 2019

I imagine some of the alt med AV crowd will blame it on diet too. Isn’t Samoa one of the islands with a poor diet? Lots of spam, I seem to remember reading about. I imagine the goalpost shifting and verbal gymnastics will be intense.

Already started. Concerns about nutrition were embedded in Mrs Taylor Winterstein’s Instagrams displayed here. A better diet is actually her go-to solution for the outbreak.
The seed is there, alt-med gurus are bound to water it copiously.

People eat a bit more starch than is good for them, because taro and breadfruit. Spam is more of a problem in American Samoa.

re: the tweets from Taylor Winterstein

“does not fit all bio-individual citizens of Samoa”

Err, could anyone update me on this ‘bio-individual’ concept? That seems redundant.
Are there any individual citizen out there made out of silicon, liquid chrome, or something else than biological molecules?
(well, silicon as in silicon chips; a silicon-based life form would still qualify as being made of biological molecules)

@ Orac

I suspect many of you know what I’m talking about, though

I have a short list as to who he may be. But you know, ‘antivaxer loon writing stupid things on the net’ doesn’t narrow the possibilities that much…

The pro disease people really do hate non white populations, don’t they? At least, that’s what it looks like in this case. Not that they care much about their fellow human beings at all, being too enamored of their Grand Idea.

No, they just hate humanity in general, and especially the Enlightenment and all that came after it. They’re just as thrilled and validated when white kids get sick and disabled by VPDs as with any others.

(Insert forte dramatic Phantom of the Opera music as the antivaxx demon re-enters the stage, da-dum!, da-dum!..) My friends have you missed me? Did you think I left?! Well, sorry to interrupt your ‘griefful’ gala, in honour of the Samoan’s measles deaths!

(Continue now with softer dramatic music) But there is an important point that you continue to miss during all these ‘festivities’…

(Now sweeping dramatic music) Tell the people in first world countries the truth. Tell them that their autism, ADHD, SIDs, and so on, are not in vain. Let them know what their sacrifices are achieving in third would countries. But, most of all, let them know it can be no other way, and rather all or none (crescendos to silence and as demon disappears)…

PS: (Now demon singing back stage) The jury is now in and ADHD has been linked to autism, sharing the same etiology…

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/11/191126121153.htm

On a recent(ish) thread I made a sarcastic comment to one of your fellow anti-vaxxers about “dancing on the graves” of the Samoan victims.. and here you are doing just that, complete with references to musical theatre and more of the same repeated ad naseum lies for good measure.

What an utterly pathetic excuse for a human being you are.

Greg is certainly an example of the absolute worst things a human can demonstrate. Describing him as vile would be a complement.

I once stepped on a nail and drove it through the sole of my shoe into the bottom of my foot. I miss that more than you.

“ADHD has been linked to autism.”

And, despite your traditional bald-faced lying, neither has been linked to vaccines.

As for your glee over the deaths of children — you are truly a disgusting skin-wrapped collection of feces.

I did that as a child – I stepped on a nail and it went straight through my shoe and almost a full inch into my foot.

Fortunately, I was fully vaccinated, so there were no tetanus worries.

Roadsterguy:

Yes, it hurts. I was vaccinated too. The air around me, however, wasn’t: I’m sure there’s still a blue haze in the spot where it happened.

Back to win again the award for biggest douchebag of the web? Don’t worry, you are in.
You confirmed to us what we already know. Better a child dying of measles than autistic or even ‘just’ ADHD, eh?
I already addressed your “sacrifices in third would countries” nonsense previously.

ADHD has been linked to autism, sharing the same etiology

And that proves…? Heck, better question, and this is news…?
You are just a badly hanged flypaper, greg. Collecting shit and eating shit.
Go die in a fire.

Choir, who really are the ones dancing on graves? I say it’s you guys seizing the opportunity to peddle your BS, and with your fake mourning. Yeah — get out the violins alright.

who really are the ones dancing on graves

There may be a few graves I may wish to dance on, greg, but these children’s aren’t.

your fake mourning

Come say it to my face.

“I say it’s you guys seizing the opportunity to peddle your BS, and with your fake mourning.”

Greg, if people were to buy into the lies you and other human scum like you constantly peddle, there will be many more deaths all over the world. Why do you want to be responsible for kiling children simply to appear to be, in the eyes of people as dishonest as you, a medical rebel?

Nope Greg. As usual, your ignoramus self draws unwarranted conclusions. The fact that some cases of both ADHD and autism have mutated genes in common, doesn’t mean that all cases of ADHD and autism do. In addition, if you noticed, the same gene mutations accounted for three times the ADHD as autism, which means other factors are involved. And even though the same mutations were found, doesn’t even mean that they alone accounted for either disorder. And nothing was mentioned about vaccines.

In addition, despite it being a well-done study, it is only one. It may be that later similarly conducted studies will result in the same findings and maybe they won’t. The difference between someone who understands science and you is that we don’t accept any one study as definitive.

I may try to get hold of the actual study later today.

I may try to get hold of the actual study later today.

I can send you a copy if you want. I found this helpful in making the paper less over my head.

Shock! Horror! Co-morbidity of autism and ADHD (along with the likes of dyspraxia and a few other things) is well-known in child and adolescent MH and paediatrics.

The link you supply (which is to a report of the paper, not the actual paper) talks about sharing numbers of mutations of certain genes, no mention of vaccines.

Your point is?

“…no mention of vaccines”

It’s obvious (to Greg): vaccines lead to autism, so if there is some link, however, slight, between autism and ADHD, then autisms cause ADHD as well.

It’s the classicial transitive law as applied by idiots.

The jury is now in and ADHD has been linked to autism, sharing the same etiology…

There was only 10.8% overlap between ASD and ADHD, dumbass. “Same etiology,” indeed.

“The jury is now in…”

Thank you for illustrating your profound ignorance of science.
A scientific consensus is never the result of a single study.
How is it that you pontificate about science but don’t know that simple elementary fact?

“…and ADHD has been linked to autism”

Thank you for illustrating your poor reading comprehension.
The article says that ADHD and ASD have symptoms in common and the researchers’ finding that they have also have gene mutations in common could explain why this is so.
So, it’s not that ADHD is linked to ASD but that both are linked to some of the same gene mutations.

“…sharing the same etiology”

And that is same aetiology is shared gene mutations.
If you are implying anything else, you’re a goddamn idiot.
But why you insist on illustrating this with every comment you make is beyond me.

Greg, since you were thoughtful enough to provide a soundtrack for our commentary, allow me to return the favour for yours:

So Autism and ADHD share the same gene. Thanks for the newsflash, SFB. Of course you ignored the part where it says they share GENES, meaning autism is GENETIC not caused by vaccines. Thanks for finally admitting it. Now piss off.

Greg, I am really tired of you telling me I’m better off dead. ADHD is nothing like being dead. You are wrong, and at this point, based on all your posts here, I can say with confidence that you are also stupid. Colossally, willfully stupid. You are a Mississippi mud puppy on the great beach of life.

Go kick a moose.

As a chorus of kazoos and was-paper combs struggle to all stay in the same key, the zany appears, The audience have come prepared and shower him with dead cats and rotten vegetables. He gathers up all the things thrown at him and thanks the audience for giving him all he needs for his dinner.
He now starts to proclaim in a harsh and reedy voice that black is white, up is down, and how he is really brilliant for having proven that the earth is flat, and that the stars are made of ice. After a few more minutes of trying to convince the audience that he really is a worthwhile performer, he moons the audience, but they are prepared for this too as darts shower on his posterior.
He walks off thinking, “They noticed me. They must really like me. I’m a somebody at last”, and goes home to a stew of roof rabbit and over-ripe garbage, contented.

The two anti-vax US physicians who’ve become involved in this–offering dangerously incorrect medical advice regarding measles vaccination and measles treatment to a “holistic farmer” in Samoa have definitely crossed a line from being ignorant loud-mouthed anti-vax physicians to actively working against health efforts to save lives in Samoa. Given that said Samoan farmer reports sneaking into hospitals to do what these physicians have recommended and also reports being detained at least once by police for his activities (the police have the authority to do so under the declared medical emergency), those US anti-vax physicians have assumed a consultancy role neither is qualified or authorized to perform.

So some ignorant nincompoop, who has gotten some advise from 2 pro-disease (in order not to hurt their feelings, I won’t call them anti-vax) physicians is trying to spread his dangerous message in a hospital, that probably treats children with a measles infection?
That guy should be banned from the hospital grounds.

Just supporting my claim that racism underlies their actions – that a westerner, usually a white male, comes along to solve their problems that they didn’t have the knowledge or sense to figure out on their own.

The Samoan loss of life is devastating but pales in comparison to the DRC. Something like 5000 dead there.

RFK Jr and Winterstein had better pack their shovels and start digging graves they helped to fill.

Yeah. I saw articles about that and even images of the offensive cartoon. I thought about including a bit about it in this post but decided against it.

The apology could have been worse; it just meets the elements of a good apology as described at SorryWatch.com. They tell what they did, they explain the harm it caused, they own what they did, they didn’t make it about themselves, and they tell what they will do to prevent a repetition.
On the last one, they could certainly do better – make a donation, fund a medical mission, find what supplies they need the most and provide it, pay for the sickest patients to be flown to NZ for treatment not available there, all of the above…

Since Junior’s supposedly such a hotshot environmentalist, why isn’t he at the forefront of the global climate change issue?

Oh, just remembered, he destroyed his credibility by sucking up to Donald “Chinese Hoax” Trump to head the so-called “Vaccine Safety Commission”. Too bad (not really) that went up in smoke along with what was left of his reputation.

Tragic measles-related Deaths:

As many as 1 out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.

@Orac,

Wouldn’t the PCV13 vaccine be a priority in that pneumonia is the predominant child-killer in measles-related deaths? Please advise.

MJD, why would people who rejected MMR be excited about PCV13? PCV13 required 4 doses and would likely have little effect for acute cases.

If the antivaxxers hadn’t planted the seeds of fear, this wouldn’t be an issue, right?

Just want the vaccine hesitant to know that the PVC13 vaccine(s) is very important, especially for children with acute measles. In other words, if you refuse the MMR vaccine, consider the PVC13 vaccine(s) in that pneumonia is the real killer.

@ Orac,.

When will you release MJD from auto-moderation? It’s been over four (4) years now.

@ Orac’s minions,

If Orac doesn’t release me within 24 hours, I’ll let you know my RI friends!

“If Orac doesn’t release me within 24 hours, I’ll let you know my RI friends!”
You have friends?

From CDC: “PCV13 protects against 13 types of bacteria that cause pneumococcal disease.
Infants and young children usually need 4 doses of pneumococcal conjugate vaccine, at 2, 4, 6, and 12–15 months of age. In some cases, a child might need fewer than 4 doses to complete PCV13 vaccination.
A dose of PCV13 is also recommended for anyone 2 years or older with certain medical conditions if they did not already receive PCV13.”

SO, you are right on.

Again from CDC: “About 1 in 5 unvaccinated people in the U.S. who get measles hospitalized. . . About 1 child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability. . . Nearly 1 to 3 of every 1,000 children who become infected with measles will die from respiratory and neurologic complications. . . Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) is a very rare, but fatal disease of the central nervous system that results from a measles virus infection acquired earlier in life. SSPE generally develops 7 to 10 years after a person has measles, even though the person seems to have fully recovered from the illness.

Even without complications, very unpleasant week for child and, if both parents working, one has to stay home to take care of the kid.

So, absolute best to ensure kid gets both measles vaccine and PCV13.

SMH.

Wow, from someone with a propensity for saying truly epic-ally stupid shit, you just hit a new low.

If they wouldn’t take an MMR because of unfounded allegations about vaccines, why would the parents agree to PCV13. I should remind you that this vaccine is on the CDC and AAP childhood schedule, typically given at 2, 4, 6, and 12-15 months. Oh, and guess what! MMR is first given at 12-15 months. Most kids get MMR and PCV13 on the same visit to decrease costs for the parents.
You clearly don’t know the first thing about the levels of prevention. Primary prevention is actions taken to prevent a disease from occurring. That’s getting vaccinated BEFORE you get sick, nimrod. Given PCV13 AFTER a kid gets the measles is secondary prevention; an action intended to detect and improve a condition that already exists (eg complications of measles).

There would be no reason to give PCV13 to prevent measles related pnumonia if the kid actually avoids the measles by getting vaccinated. PCV13 is primarily given to avoid other causes of pneumonia in infants and very young children, eg influenza, Hib, RSV, and so on.

Panacea writes,

There would be no reason to give PCV13 to prevent measles related pnumonia if the kid actually avoids the measles by getting vaccinated.

MJD says,

Jeez Panacea, your SMH and respectful insolence knows no boundary. I’m trying to encourage “vaccine hesitant” parents to consider the PCV13 vaccine for their children if the MMR is avoided. PCV13 is given to try to prevent pneumonia no matter what the cause. Try teaching that to your students, Panacea.

mjd, stop with the “vaccine hesitant” bullshit. You’re just as uninformed and dishonest as greg and christine.

Stuff it Michael. Your pseudo rationalism cannot hide the smarmy snark that is every post you make. I know damn well what you really mean.

If you really supported vaccination you would encourage parents to get the MMR as well as the PCV13.

My students do me proud. They understand the importance of vaccination to public health.

Panacea writes,

“If you really supported vaccination you would encourage parents to get the MMR as well as the PCV13.”

MJD says,

I encourage all parents to get the MMR vaccine, as well as the PCV13 vaccine. Adults need not be hesitant about forced immunity unless their doctor recommends otherwise.

@ Panacea,

Do you feel comforted my RI friend?

MJD: “I encourage all parents to get the MMR vaccine, as well as the PCV13 vaccine. Adults need not be hesitant about forced immunity unless their doctor recommends otherwise”

Do you extend that to their children? After all, that is when those vaccines are supposed to be given.
And what do you mean by “forced immunity”?

BillyJoe asks,

Do you extend that to their children?

MJD says,

This question can only be answered in the “hypothetical” in that the children’s health profiles are unknown.

@ BillyJoe,

What is the world pre-vaccination health screening strategy for children during a mass-vaccination emergency?

MJD: “I encourage all parents to get the MMR vaccine, as well as the PCV13 vaccine”

BJ: “Do you extend that to their children?”

MJD: “This question can only be answered in the “hypothetical” in that the children’s health profiles are unknown”

On the bright side, all those children dead of measles in Samoa now have natural immunity, and will never become autistic.

Of course you don’t want to discuss the fact that the measles Vaccine could have caused this outbreak yada yada yada

Um, no, just like we don’t want to discuss the ‘fact’ that toxins or radiation or little pixies could have caused this outbreak. Because these are the kind of ‘facts’ that stem from the imagination of people living in an alternative universe, and have nothing to do with science or reality.

Thankfully MANY intelligent honest people ARE discussing this likely cause of the deaths in Samoa

No matter how intelligent or honest these people otherwise are, they clearly have no clue about medicine in general or infectious diseases in particular. Annually, some 130 million kids receive the MMR vaccine, and as far as we can tell, NOT ONE develops full-blown measles as a result of that, let alone a contagious variety. Not to mention the very real fact that scientists can (and do) identify the strain of virus involved in every outbreak because they want to know its origin — which is a wild strain, as doritmi already explained.

@ Dorit.

You have no basis for saying this, and it’s jarring that anti-vaccine activists are working to discourage and misinform
people in Samoa this way while children are dying from a vaccine preventable disease

I haven’t told anybody in Samoa a damn thing. This is what they are saying.

I haven’t told anybody in Samoa a damn thing. This is what they are saying.

That doesn’t get you off the hook. YOU are intentionally spreading lies and validating the mouthpieces that cause the fire; you fan the flames. I agree with Terrie, for whatever delusional reason you feel as though your life is shit, get help for it, don’t try to make others’ lives shit too. What a weird form of therapy you have there.

@ Science Mom;

The blood of those children is on your hands. The blood of MY child is on your hands & when I say YOU? I mean ‘the influential provaccine & their brown-nosed minions’

You all here could have answered with concern instead of mockery when those two one-year olds died in Samoa from yet another ‘mix-up’. You could have cared when the two siblings died within two years of each other from the MMR BEFORE the two one -year olds did.

You could have thought to yourself; “WTF is going on in Samoa?’ Just like I did & YOU could have searched social media to read the conversations of Samoans; just like I did.

And YOU could have kept close watch on the Dengvaxia tragedy in the Philippines that just KILLED 600 children & realized that Samoa was watching. Couldn’t you? I did.

But UNLIKE ME … YOU could have come here & said ‘Something is going on in the Pacific that could impact any & all hopes for an immunized population. Should we help? Shouldn’t we listen? Should we be concerned about the quality of vaccines in the Pacific?’

But oh hell no you didn’t. It was much more fun to giggle at your little echo-chamber voice making fun of grieving ‘antivaxxer’ parents. Your little safe spot.

YOU didn’t do jack shit. And children died. And then they didn’t want to vaccinate & now there is a goddamned big outbreak & even more children are dying & guess what; you idiots?

They have shut down the government for two days to force-vaccinate because the Samoans STILL don’t want it, lol.

And now you want to point at ME & say ‘it’s the antivaxxer’s fault’. Bullshit. You think they care about what some white girl whose baby died 25 years ago in the US has to say about vaccines? Really? They don’t give a fuck about me. They care about their kids & the vaccines are killing their kids & YOU could have done something about it but you did’t. None of you listened. All of you laughed. This outbreak?

Is your baby.

Now you’re completely reaching. The pro-vaccine reaction to the tragedy in Samoa was concern and distress at the time, and people followed it. It was investigated thoroughly by the state and a person sent to jail. That’s not brushing it off.

You’re right that the other case did not get that attention – because it was never in the news till then, and it’s a separate and different issue: a genetic problem.

What did your anti-vaccine leaders do? Step in to build on the panic and concern, discourage people from vaccinating more. Working hard at . What are you and your leaders doing now? Trying to explain away the harm from a vaccine preventable disease, blame it on anything except low vaccine rates, and continue to discourage people from vaccinating, when that’s the way to stop the harm.

I am sorry your child died of SIDS. Vaccines don’t cause SIDS. I am sorry you are dealing with such a hard situation with your autistic child. Vaccines don’t cause autism.

Working to scare others from vaccines won’t solve your problem. It can directly harm children.

YOU could have searched social media to read the conversations of Samoans; just like I did.

Your rant is a pretty poor excuse for a Siva Tau, Christine.

Christine, it is obvious WTF is going on in Samoa.

Vulnerable people bought into fear mongering from BSC people like Terry Weinstein and Robert F Kennedy Jr, the same kind of BSC shit you peddle every time you post here no matter how absolutely you are proven wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Don’t expect me to respond in a rational or kind manner on this. I am GOD DAMN ANGRY at the NEEDLESS deaths of these children because people like YOU told GOD DAMN LIES to scared parents and now their children are dead.

I blame you. You are part of the problem, and I don’t care if you never spoke to anyone in Samoa personally. You tell people this shit in your own country, and make the people around you vulnerable.

I say to you again, if you are a nurse as someone else mentioned (I might have known that and forgotten) turn in your license. I mean it. Surrender it. Because if you spout this bullshit in the face of these tragic deaths, these needless preventable deaths in Samoa, then you have NO SHAME and no business in my profession.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with the MMR in Samoa, you twit.

It was a medical error, in which the nurses were held accountable. Did you miss that part? Did you also miss the part where that topic was discussed, in depth, here as well?

Seriously, you have real self-loathing issues – and yes, your actions directly impact what is happening….and you and other anti-vaxers are directly responsible for feeding the flames…and killing these children.

Rot in hell.

Oh, and Christine – we don’t give a Rat [email protected] about you either, other than trying to alleviate the damage that you’ve done and continue to do….you and the other anti-vaxers who’ll only be happy when vaccine preventable diseases roar back to ravage another generation of children.

You should seek professional help.

Christine is pathologically incapable of taking responsibility for anything. It’s always someone else’s fault. She needs therapy.

Christine Kincaid:
“Dengvaxia tragedy in the Philippines that just KILLED 600 children”

Here are some details that might put this into perspective:

https://www.scmp.com/magazines/post-magazine/long-reads/article/3006712/philippines-suspicion-dengue-vaccine-linked

https://www.npr.org/2019/05/02/719366831/dengue-vaccine-controversy-in-the-philippines

“The approval is currently only for kids, and it came with an important restriction. It can only be given to kids ages 9 to 16 who have had prior dengue infection. The vaccine was launched without that restriction in the Philippines and…the repercussions there have been deadly”.

Some background:
There are 4 different serotypes of the Dengue fever virus. The primary infection by one of the serotypes of the virus is usually not severe. But a secondary infection by a different serotype can cause severe disease and death. The clinical studies showed that, while giving the vaccine to children who had already had the primary infection with the Dengue fever virus offered just over 50% protection against severe disease from secondary infection, it actually increased the chances of severe infection in children who had not had their primary infection when they eventually did get their primary infection.

What happened in the Philippines was against Sanofi’s own recommendations. It was greed that caused them to participate with politicians in the Philippines to vaccinate children indiscriminately. The motivating factor for the DOH was political gain. About 800,000 children were indiscriminately vaccinated before the program was abandoned.

Were 600 children killed:
The claim that the vaccine “KILLED 600 children” is false and not based on facts and data. Certainly that figure has not been verified and is very likely a “worse case”. About 10 cases have so far been verified as having been caused by the vaccine. Also, if these children had not been given the vaccine and, if they eventually developed a primary and then secondary infection, the result might have been the same. The tragedy is that the vaccine given after the primary infection could have prevented their deaths from the secondary infection. Of course, that vaccine program is now no longer available in the Philippines. The other tragedy is that it has caused a decrease in all vaccinations in that country and a resurgence in death due to measles infection.

So, this is not an indictment of the vaccine itself but, rather, an indictment of corporate greed and political opportunism. It certainly has nothing to do with vaccines in general.

Some statistics about Dengue Fever:
“Dengue is spreading rapidly around the world, infecting 390 million people every year – 100 million of whom [1 in 4] develop symptoms, with 500,000 of those [1 in 200] contracting haemorr­hagic fever – and killing 20,000, [1 in 25] mostly children and pregnant women”.

The Internet is forever, and global. The crap you help spread may not have a huge impact in highly vaccinated (and educated) population most of the developed world (notice I said “most”), but for those who don’t have access to the most up to date information or who might, for reasons like the death of those two Samoan babies due to a tragic accident, find themselves scared of vaccines, it is like pouring gasoline on a fire.

For [email protected]’s sake, dozens of children are already dead & more than likely, more will die – and that doesn’t even include the potential for SSPE deaths down the road…so just shut up, why don’t you? This is a totally preventable tragedy & you are using it to spread lies and fear.

There is a special place in hell for people like you and Gerg – this blood is on your hands, whether you like it or not.

There is a special place in hell for people like you and Gerg

Why do people always say ‘special’? Like — is there different grades of hell? And, come to think of it, why did God have to be so unfair about who goes to hell? Imagine the line into hell, with the poor bloke who stole toiletries form his hotel room standing behind Hitler. The guy would be like thinking, maybe I should’ve grabbed the tv also.

There is a special place in hell

For the people in the back – check Dante’s Inferno.

Also, Barry Hughart had a riff on the topic, in the novel ‘The Story of the Stone’, but with the ‘classical’ Chinese’s Hell.

“They care about their kids & the vaccines are killing their kids & YOU could have done something about it but you did’t.”

Christine, you do not seem to be paying attention. The children who have died in Samoa WEREN’T vaccinated.

Added to which (somewhat off topic), why is anyone with any kind of conscience listening to that POS RFK, Jr. ?!?! The guy openly cheated on his wife, refused to give her any kind of financial support when he knew she was unable to support herself, and DROVE HER TO SUICIDE. Without remorse, sleeping like a baby. I think he’s in it to milk out another dimension to his “rebellious maverick” cred. Do these fools not know who and what kind of sociopath they are fawning over?! Like attracts like, I think.

The guy openly cheated on his wife

Good to know! If I am ever interested in info on fraudulent vaccines science and how to cheat on my wife, I know where to go. Thx

Well, I kind of agree with you there. Rather astonished at your levels of hypocracy though. Your usual attitude is along the lines of ‘ignore any research by that guy because he once worked in the same building as a guy who……’. Yet, when it suits you, it’s fine to sweep behaviour under the carpet. Cast out the beam from thine own eye etc etc.

re “rebellious maverick”

I’ve been finding recent psychological research about anti-vaxxers: one of the characteristics they share is the tendency to reject standard research and experts’ input: they value their own individualistic/ contrarian beliefs and do not support a hierarchical view of information: to them, their beliefs are equal or better than those of people like Orac , Drs Hotex or Offit. Of course, we’ve all observed
anti-vax moms speculate and spin theories of autism/ brain development and cure-alls ( see AoA, Conrick, Blaxil,l at RI etc)

In addition, they value purity and freedom despising anyone who tells them what to do ( like vaccine laws for school attendance). RFK jr provides a role model for anti-vax parents where they all “fight the power”. Similar for woo-meisters who fail to accept reality. I wonder how many of these scoffers cannot differentiate their own pet ideas from SB research? Most, probably.

“one of the characteristics they share is the tendency to reject standard research and experts’ input: they value their own individualistic/ contrarian beliefs and do not support a hierarchical view of information: to them, their beliefs are equal or better than ”

I don’t think that is unique to the anti-vacc loons (and I am not saying you imply it is). You need only look at comments by the most rabid global warming deniers to see statements about climate that are on the same level of foolishness as the things greg, mjd, chrisine, … puke out here.

@ dean:

Right. One of the things I left out is that anti-vaxxers are also more likely to believe in OTHER conspiracy theories.
Of course this says *loads& about executive function but I won’ get into that

Yes, they reject scientists and their findings; but not just because of their idiosyncratic beliefs. If they can’t refute science then they claim it is a lie based on their paranoid conspiracy theories. Any scientist whose findings contradict theirs is part of the conspiracy, thus, his research must be a lie, e.g., faked data. On the other hand, any scientist who confirms their beliefs, regardless of how poor the methodology of his research is, is honest and his methodology is sound because it arrived at the “right” answer. Must be nice to have a litmus test not based on science, e.g., research methodology; but on results, regardless of how they were arrived at.

There is one more addition. If you listen to Greg and others, they sound more like religious fanatics. I remember as a young child one of my playmates mothers telling me I was going to hell if I didn’t accept Jesus. Such absolute certainty. Well, I can’ say she was right or wrong. Won’t know until I die. If I end up dust, she was wrong; but I won’t be conscious of it. If I end up in hell, oh well. Greg’s attacks on me and others have the same tone as hers. Another little anecdote. Years ago I worked on a research project with an extremely nice guy who was also a conservative Southern Baptist. One day over coffee we were discussing the Bible. He said that Jesus had said something. That night I went home, looked into my two copies of the Bible, King James and Modern Version, found the verse, bookmarked it and took it to work the next day. The verse said the opposite of what he claimed. He looked at it and without batting an eye said: “That’s not what Jesus meant.” In other words, not even Biblical text could change his mind. Seems that Greg and others have a similar mentality.

And given that the world has become very complex, for some, simple dichotomies give them some sort of security, even if it actually works against them. Trying to understand even some of our current world takes work, an open mind, and accepting that things aren’t black and white. They just ignore this.

Or, in Greg’s case, perhaps he is just an extremely unhappy individual and his only outlet is to irritate others, not with any real goal in mind, just to irritate them. However, he does contribute to the dialogue, not as he thinks he does; but as an example of the irrational, unscientific, delusions of grandeur (being right because they are right), illogical, etc. I used to have a poster of a man in prison dress with a ball and chain around his neck which said: “Cheer Up. You can always serve as a bad example.” If I still had the poster and somehow a photo of Greg, well, I would paste it over the face. LOL

Blathering, blathering, blathering…

What Joel – are you now taking psychoanalysis tips from Denice Walters? And as you whine…

Trying to understand even some of our current world takes work, an open mind, and accepting that things aren’t black and white

What — are we debating quantom mechanics or string theory, Joel? No, we are discussing autism and vaccines. There are many indications that you guys are full of crap, Joel, but do you know which one I find the most amusing? It is the fact that you guys are so bloody smart that if you weren’t full of crap, you would’ve produced the conclusive evidence to bury us a long time now.

Joel, did I bruise your ego by suggesting you are pitiful? There is a person here that goes by ‘T-Bruce’. He obviously is a Democrat who detests Trump. He hisses continually about how much Trump lies. Yet, T-Bruce fails to consider that the Democrats lie too, but whereas Trump harbours no pretense that he is not a liar, the Democrats do. In this regard, Trump is more honest!

Screw the pretense of any claim to a moral high ground, Joel; you are just making things extremely hard on yourself. Own up to your dishonesty and move along. Maybe it will be a blow to the pride when all pretenses are discarded and revealing just naked ego, but at least you will be less burdened.

Greg

There are many indications that you guys are full of crap

Only in your own mind.
Actually, you react aggressively like this whenever we tell you something you can check, but realize it will shatter your worldview.

Deep down, you know we may be right.

Evidence on this very thread. In trying to undo yourself with nastiness, you inadvertently acknowledged:
– that measles kills
– that vaccines protect against measles

@Greg Remember that you yourself previously admitted that autism is genetic ? You cited a paper claiming that some cases of ADHD and autism are caused by same genes. So you admit that “choir” is right and you are wrong.

@ Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH:

That’s why I always say that woo and conspiracy mongering MUST go together hand in glove: if their cherished “theory’ ( Vaccines cause autism, *hiv is harmless, *juicing cures cancer**) is the ultimate answer yet it has not been accepted as state of the art science- well, powerful forces who had ulterior motives ((shudder)) have to be suppressing it. AND getting rich!

Also why I invoke problems with executive functioning in adults because if you can’t see how unlikely that is: One maverick contrarian – sometimes not even in the appropriate field- can show the error of experts worldwide who have been researching the issue for decades. They can’t evaluate their own abilities in respect to that of others.

An additional problem is confirmation bias ( Dr DG was just discussing this on twitter): a wary person understands how it occurs and how slippery memory can be so one would need to constantly check oneself. Am I remembering something that fits in with my worldview or did it really happen? ( Important now if you try to keep up with developments in the impeachment ).

Anti-vaccine activists fail to check their own psychological underpinnings and assume that they are right and they only frequent confirming sources. Someone asked me, ” How can you tell if the right’s media says this but the left’s media say that?” Well, there are way of doing that: I was fortunate to study writing/ journalism from a prof who had first been a lawyer in the Consulate in Israel and went back for a doctorate: he gave us insight in how to pursue reality. If you think about it, scientific research, legal argument and journalism are expressions of executive functioning in adults – you have to compare what you think vs what THERE IS!

Funny, but the woo-followers always call SBM supporters “sheeple” when they all play the exact same tune.They choose their “experts” from the like-minded not from data and research.They identify with maverick-y iconoclasts like AJW or RFK jr.. So many of the anti-vax moms use their “science” to stand out from mere everyday people
WHO MAKE SENSE and they can’t self-examine enough to see how their position serves psychological needs.

Better still. They call people who don’t accept their world view “sheeple” while being flagrantly and in most cases clumsily manipulated by the rankest and basest marketing pitches imaginable. Tying their very intellectual identity to the whims and SEO strategies of e-commerce websites and their content marketing clickbait.

The Mavericks at the most successful of these pages do not create any of their own content. a big chunk of their social posts and probably almost all of their videos and graphics are created outside of the US entirely. They sign off on it, it’s not like they are not the major stake holder. But keep in mind that brilliant takedown of big pharma was written by a nameless employee repurposing old content.

Is there another area of commerce where the Die hard fans are so thoroughly and completely wrapped around the fingers of marketers?

You can’t say Apple or Mercedes, because it’s not like they are private labeling mediocre products available generically for a third the price. Maybe clothing retailers?

I notice that none of the anti-vaxxers here and elsewhere are directly addressing the preventable tragedy occurring in Samoa, instead they engage in whataboutism, “Squirrel” and/or just plain lie about the facts of the measles epidemic there. I hope the fence-sitters are paying attention to this and seeing what cowards, liars and self-interested ghouls anti-vaxxers are in the face of VPD epidemics that they have helped create.

I have noticed this as well. Their main activity has not been to show concern for the people of Samoa or for the families that have lost young children to this outbreak. It has been to claim that the MMR vaccine has caused the measles, despite the fact that the outbreak strain is completely different and only about 30% of the population is vaccinated, or to offer completely useless alternatives to vaccination, or to behave like Greg above.

I notice that none of the anti-vaxxers here and elsewhere are directly addressing the preventable tragedy occurring in Samoa, instead they engage in whataboutism, “Squirrel” and/or just plain lie about the facts of the measles epidemic there.

Well, gosh, darn, cotton-picking, let me do just that, Science Mom. I will step up to the podium right now and talk to two parents, Mrs Faumuina in Samoa and Mrs Richards in the US.

Mrs Faumuina, unfortunately there is a measles epidemic in your country. The MMR vaccine in all likelihood will prevent your son from catching and dying from measles, but if you were to complete the full vaccination schedule there is a 1 in 36 chance he will get autism, a 1 in 10 chance he will get ADHD, and I won’t even go into his increased risks for cancer, diabetes, allergies, and so on and so on. Mrs Faumuina, if I were in your shoes, I would try my luck and get just the MMR for my son. And now for Mrs Richards…

Mrs Richards, fortunately there are no current, widescale measles outbreaks in the US. Yet, even if there were, in a well-nourished country like the US, your son would stand miniscule risks of suffering any serious complications from measles should he catch it. In fact, over the last 10 years of measles outbreaks in the US, only one person died from it, but she had a compromised immune system.

Mrs Richards, it’s your choice whether you want to gamble with vaccines. I will also emphasize ‘choice’ because I firmly believe your son should not be refused entry to daycares or schools should you opt not to vaccinate him.

Mrs Richards, should you also follow the full vaccination schedule for your son, I must also inform you that he stands a 1 in 36 chance of getting autism, 1 in 10 chance of developing ADHD, and I won’t even go into his increased risks for cancer, diabetes, allergies, and so and so on. Mr Richards, if I were in your shoes, I would skip.

There Science Mom, are you satisfied now?

“I must also inform you that he stands a 1 in 36 chance of getting autism, 1 in 10 chance of developing ADHD, and I won’t even go into his increased risks for cancer, diabetes, allergies, and so and so on. Mr Richards, if I were in your shoes, I would skip.”

Rarely do you find people so proud of their ignorance that they are willing to lie so blatantly to advertise it and then use that lie to tell people to put children at risk — as you just did.

I’m beginning to think that it is impossible to think too lowly of you.

Not only will you have a special place in hell, it will be designed for you alone as nobody else there would be able to tolerate you.

There Science Mom, are you satisfied now?

Why would I be when you repeatedly spew the same histrionic, patently-false rubbish couched in pathetic attempts at sounding like an MC. You’re a damn muppet.

Mrs Richards, fortunately there are no current, widescale measles outbreaks in the US.

Because of mass measles vaccination, you crétin des Alpes.
Your children are protected by the measles immunity conferred by vaccines.
As evidenced by the Samoan people right now. And a few other places are just around an ‘hold my beer’ moment. Including in first-world nations.

Yet, even if there were, in a well-nourished country like the US, your son would stand miniscule risks of suffering any serious complications from measles should he catch it.

Just 1 to 2 per 1000 chance of dying, and a few percent chances of non-lethal complications. Almost never happens.

Compared to zero chance of catching autism from the vaccines…

Greg, go look at the coffins of children and tell me measles is harmless. I dare you, you gutless coward.

This post of categorically false anti-vaccine propaganda should qualify you for a ban and have this disinfo post deleted.
You are not discussing vaccines/safety now, you are using this forum to distribute provably false anti-vaccine disinformation.

Actual research (fourth time):
Hviid A, Hansen JV, Frisch M, et al. Measles, Mumps, Rubella Vaccination and Autism: A Nationwide Cohort Study. Ann Intern Med. 2019;170:513–520. [Epub ahead of print 5 March 2019]. doi: https://doi.org/10.7326/M18-2101
The highest risk for autism was conferred by being a boy (HR, 4.02 [CI, 3.78 to 4.28]), being born in a late birth cohort (2008-2010; HR, 1.34 [CI, 1.18 to 1.52]), having no early childhood vaccinations (HR, 1.17 [CI, 0.98 to 1.38]), and having siblings with autism at study entry (HR, 7.32 [CI, 5.29 to 10.12]). The autism risk score had a modest effect on autism risk compared with sex and sibling history of autism (highest-risk group versus moderate-risk group; HR, 1.38 [CI, 1.28 to 1.48]).
Pulling out numbers out of your hat is just lying.

Not only will you have a special place in hell, it will be designed for you alone as nobody else there would be able to tolerate you.

Yeah — just imagining that compensation for other hell patrons. It would be like, ‘I am stuck in this tortuous place with flames searing my flesh for eternity, but at least they moved Greg and I don’t have to put up with him bugging me.’

I think Greg’s arguments are so bad that he must be a provaxxer posing as an antivaxxer attempting to counter the influence of antivaxxers. Because that seems to be the effect he is achieving. No fence-sitter in their right mind would be convinced by his arguments. Come on, Greg, come clean.

@ Greg

Not psychoanalysis; but training and experience in clinical psychology. In Sweden, PhDs are pure research degrees, lots of methodology, philosophy of science, etc.; but there is a separate set of courses, practicums, including one year internship. I did both the PhD and the Professional Psychology training, including internship at main hospitals psychiatric clinic. So, not psychoanalysis, which is NOT based on any science; but a solid background in clinical psychology. Another example of my loving learning, besides reading tons of books. In Sweden, I was a license clinical psychologist. I trained in clinical psychology not for a career; but thought the more I understood people, the better I was at interviewing them, the better my research skills would be.

And there are dozens of studies that have been conducted by researchers in different countries on different data sets, etc. that have found NO relationship between vaccines and autism. You just choose to ignore them and rely on your RELIGIOUS opinion. Attacking me just digs a bigger hole for you. You don’t back your claims with science, just attack others based on your delusional belief system. Must make you feel great that you know more than the vast majority of researchers who needed 8 – 10 years education then years of research experience, while you just know you are right without having have to devote much time and effort, just your natural genius, or more likely, your natural stupidity and delusions of grandeur.

As an example of unscientific thinking, you avoid responding to many statements I have made. For instance, you call me a liar, that is, you believe I know that vaccines are dangerous and lie about it; but when I explained how I made sure and continue to make sure that loved ones, parents and grandparents, and friends and their kids got and get vaccinated, you can’t explain this. You also claimed that because I read so many books, I have not have any real life experiences; but when I explained living in five other nations, working in soup kitchens, playing guitar in bands, etc. all you could do is ask me what types of music I like, not admit that I have had far more real life experiences that you could ever have had. In your world of black and white, if one reads a lot, then one can’t also experience real life. WRONG! How many other countries have you lived in, experienced their culture, etc.? I even asked you if you have ever donated blood. No answer. I am approaching my 100th time and feel guilty I haven’t donated more. Except for attacking people, claiming to be right, just because its you, posting not to engage in dialogue but just to irritate people, what have you ever done to help others, given of your time, etc.?

By the way, I sent an e-mail to colleagues requesting the actual article that you only saw a press release about. Hopefully, I’ll get it soon. Press releases, like newspaper accounts, highlight only a few findings of a study, often ignoring caveats and other ideas discussed in the discussion section of an article. Of course, nothing will change your mind.

@ Science Mom

Of course they don’t address the tragedy as their world of fantasy considers it a necessary sacrifice to prevent more kids from developing autism, though their fantasy world ignores that kids on the spectrum can often lead a fullfilling life, that is, they see the spectrum as akin to leprosy or the like. Their motto: Better Dead than on the Spectrum. Their callousness notwithstanding that their belief system is just that, a belief system that ignores reality.

Trump is more honest because he doesn’t hide his dishonesty – there’s a sort of logic there, except that it is a false statement ‘there was no quid pro quo’ seems to me to be him hiding his dishonesty, but hey ho!

<

blockquote>
Trump is more honest because he doesn’t hide is dishonesty.

Let’s use this tweet from a famous Democrat in the vaccination circle to demonstrate this point….

@DrPanMD
Follow Follow @DrPanMD
More
Replying to @PeterHotez
Met with RFK, Jr where he went on and on about corruption at the @US_FDA but could not give any proof of his claims abt vaccines. I debated RFK Jr. on both #SB277 & #SB276 and won both times. #Science #VaccinesWork #Ivax2protect

Of course Pan never met with RFK or debated him, so by what grounds can he justify the lie? Reading between the lines of the lie, Pan is hinting that since RFK was in California to protest the bills, and both bills were debated in the Legislature by Pan and others and then passed, he won the debates. It doesn’t matter that they didn’t meet face to face for debates, just his arguments prevailed with the passing of the bills.

Now, had it been Trump suggesting he won debates that never happened, it would’ve simply been a bald-faced lie without any attempt at context. Trump. again, is a more honest liar.

Also, the main Samoan anti-vaxer / “natural healer” was just arrested by the government for attempting to interfere with the National Vaccination Program.

Finally, a government willing to take a hard stand against these people.

@ Dorit,

No Dorit. Problems with the MMR have been ongoing for years in Samoa..

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12123224&fbclid=IwAR3JzUALXKyhqsql59yGVAI4BQOBd76ZbvmGnwGvL-eqlJbqga3TH9ATLL8

@ Panacea,

Lol; you are a nursing student? You don’t know shit. Go take care of real patients under your own license for a few decades & then we’ll talk.

@ Lawrence,

Before you continue to make a complete ass out of yourself; why don’t you communicate with the parents of unvaccinated children in Samoa & ask them why they did not vaccinate?

Why don’t all of you spoonfed group-thinkers do that? For me to waste my time online ‘spreading antivax TRUTH’ to the Samoans would have been preaching to the choir. I do that HERE instead; just to get under your skin & to make sure none of you will ever be able to say ‘Nobody told me’.

I spread antivax truth to you who need it the most so that in the future, when that cognitive dissonance knocks you on your ass? You will remember me & feel even worse. Your time is coming & when it does it’s going to hurt. That is, if you aren’t a narcissistic psychopath.

You guys are fools to think that antivaxxers in the US reached out to Samoans before this outbreak. The Samoans reached out to the doctors here.

Unfortunately; that’s a big PROBLEM with antivaxxers. Always on the defense. If I were you I’d be more worried about what is going on in Pakistan. They hate our vaccines too but they are playing the offense.

A. My comment above addressed the cases in your 2018 article.

B. RFK jr. was in Samoa in June 2019, before the outbreak. Taylor Winterstein, as they post sets out, has been working to mislead people, including in Samoa, for several years.

The outbreak can’t be placed solely at your movement’s feet, but you (collective) worked to fan the flames and are now actively working to make things worse, as Orac’s post today shows.

Exactly. It’s a straw man to claim that our argument is that antivaxxers are the main cause of the outbreak. They are, however, clearly doing their best to spread misinformation that hampers effective public health responses by encouraging quackery instead of medicine and stoking fear of the vaccine and mistrust of the government.

Exactly. It’s a straw man to claim that our argument is that antivaxxers are the main cause of the outbreak.

It’s their weak attempt at deflection for their labours coming to fruition. Even though anti-vaxxers like Christine are not directly responsible, this is the end result of what anti-vaxxers like Christine are preaching toward.

The commenter Has did a very good summary of this on the previous thread.

You fucking deviants got exactly what you wanted in Samoa: lots of unvaccinated children.

At least have the fucking guts to own the consequences as well.

“I spread antivax truth.” Well, at least you’re finally admitting you’re antivax. Encourgaing the suffering of others still isn’t going to fix the issues in your own life. Get therapy, and stop trying to maim and kill other people via disease.

Yeah, but she’s always insisted she’s not antivax. Though, she’s not exactly the most consistent in her rhetoric either. I’m sure she’ll return to the claim in the future.

Unfortunately; that’s a big PROBLEM with antivaxxers. Always on the defense. If I were you I’d be more worried about what is going on in Pakistan. They hate our vaccines too but they are playing the offense.

IOW, you are wishing for our collective death.

Also, Pakistan people may hate American vaccines, but I have this feeling it’s the ‘American’ part which is the main issue.

“Also, Pakistan people may hate American vaccines, but I have this feeling it’s the ‘American’ part which is the main issue.”

As I remember, in the runup to the assault on bin-Laden’s compound one of the ways agencies gathered intel was sending agents to the area and have them pretend to be from local health organizations with the story that they were giving (or maybe simply asking about) vaccinations. That deception resulted in a huge negative feedback against real health workers doing real work.

@ Athaic,

IOW, you are wishing for our collective death

WHAT??

Seriously, if I was wishing for anybody’s ‘collective death’ I’d be encouraging everybody to vaccinate.

I’m not thinking ‘anti-vaxxers’ should be fire-bombing anyone. Just taking a more proactive role against medical abuse.

Like this new development. No motorcycle gunmen or rioting parents required; just pro-action.

https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/b-c-nurses-no-longer-forced-to-get-flu-vaccination

Bullshit. I repeatedly pointed out alpha-1 is present in my family. This means that respiratory infections, even the common cold, can result in lung damage that eventually becomes COPD. I like being able to breathe. It’s kinda essential for life. Not vaccinating people will result in death. Own it.

Christine Kincade:

“Just taking a more proactive role against medical abuse…Like this new development: https://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/b-c-nurses-no-longer-forced-to-get-flu-vaccination

Why did you deceitfully misrepresent this article?

Quote:

BCNU president Christine Sorensen said the union would continue to work with employers to encourage vaccination as a strategy to reduce flu transmission and promote the use of personal protective equipment.

“Vaccination is one effective way of protecting patients and health-care workers and we hope that this new approach, which relies more on co-operation and professionalism instead of punitive action toward health-care workers, will achieve our goals of reducing influenza,” Sorensen wrote.

End of quote.

The nurses union is pro-vaccine but believe “co-operation and professionalism” works better than “punitive action”. They were NOT “taking a role against medical abuse”.

Please apologise for your deceitful misrepresentation of their position.

@ Christine

They hate our vaccines too but they are playing the offense.

I’m not thinking ‘anti-vaxxers’ should be fire-bombing anyone.

Next time you mention a country in which religious zealots are killing healthcare workers, be sure to precise which type of ‘playing the offense’ you meant.
Especially when the murder strategy is the most known.
Actually, you know what? Until you provide links demonstrating that Pakistani are using these unnamed other ways I won’t believe you. Your other posts made it clear: you do wish for our suffering and death.

if I was wishing for anybody’s ‘collective death’ I’d be encouraging everybody to vaccinate.

90% coverage and counting in many countries, and global population is still on the rise, either in numbers or, until very recently, in lifespan. Especially in countries with a high vaccination coverage. As killing machines, vaccines are not very efficient.

OTOH, you encourage everybody NOT to vaccinate while unvaccinated children die.

I’m a nursing PROFESSOR, Christine. 15 years in nursing education teaching prelicensure and graduate students, 35 years experience in patient care (as I always work two jobs). I’m in FNP school, not nursing school.

Turn in your license. Your behavior is shameful. You lie to patients and endanger public health.

@ Panacea:

Heh. I’m sure that Orac’s minions were itching to inform her but we waited for you.
-btw- I’m not a doctor or nurse but even I can spot your obvious expertise and ability as an instructor.
But the clueless remain so,

@ Panacea,

Good for you & very impressive & I mean that sincerely.

What do you think about the B.C. Nurses’ Union winning their fight over a rule that forced nurses to either receive a flu vaccine or wear a face mask at work?

Do you think the thousands of nurses here should also turn in their licenses?

https://www.facebook.com/nfvsa/?tn=kCH-R&eid=ARBURkEKLsDqs5F-o_kcJgrs116R11whg3RdQzezS47fBneUKpycnOX_7oNQBME7kfoK-qMRRWPRiTPt&hc_ref=ARQn2nF1icdCpZ8ASANydOjpzwabnrQrj7avhymMSOg_PJ8Tflw7FX-pXN8iOLmlBOw&fref=nf&xts[0]=68.ARBjznfmRKfslSK_89QKTvl35P1V5Uc55ysV4hl92-sC2cYz-FNpN5XDn9r_-dd4uRKso0KX5vjhK6GunRAD6shdBT_i7gXC82DgPDzfzAbDh8CUAra3W7-Sc1GwjOSr9fAQrI7S_B6JiKvnG2RYgmJK3WxMy8t1l6z6mImuNdyAOFbiSjxAGd1sl4NSG9ySbkOTtv5CmpH8FQbpf-q5fegS55K3TKP6gNWvuUcQAIImn4w2KjrYSxAsOScFP1V6AH7pnfaJJKSePUmRvbfhf8SI6qK1xs55DRcCwpCoQjEmEWyOBePvYerurX1h8MHT-WVTAmBn-PLcuwCPAQ

Do you think the thousands of nurses here should also turn in their licenses?

Yes, they shouldn’t be practising; they are clearly anti-vaxx, anti-science incompetents in spite of their deceptive group name.

She cites a fricking FB post about it, instead of, say the union’s official statement or an actual news story, because she wants to avoid reality. The concern over masks was it was causing issues with patients with certain mental health issues or who were hard of hearing. The union states BCNU will continue to work with the employer to encourage vaccination as a strategy to reduce flu transmission and promote the use of personal protective equipment when appropriate. and In the event of an influenza outbreak, the policy will be suspended at the outbreak location and the organizations’ outbreak policies will apply. But their support of vaccination doesn’t fit her delusions.

https://www.bcnu.org/news-and-events/news/2019/bcnu-works-collaboratively-to-amend-flu-policy

Christine Kincaid:

“What do you think about the B.C. Nurses’ Union”

What do you think about my suggestion that you apologise for your deceitful misrepresentation of the nurses union’s position?

BCNU president Christine Sorensen:

“Vaccination is one effective way of protecting patients and health-care workers and we hope that this new approach, which relies more on co-operation and professionalism instead of punitive action toward health-care workers, will achieve our goals of reducing influenza”

FYI:

RFK jr is IN Samoa right now but so is your little dick pan tool.

The PM of Samoa has a vaccine-injured grandchild. His words.

And he really push measles vaccinations, like closing goverment for two days so that its employees can help vaccination drive, Not an antivaxx thing to do.

Those kids in Samoa are dying because they are giving the MMR to already sick babies. Listen to this father. His girls who already had the Measles got the vaccine. He thinks the vaccine is a ‘cure’. Way to educate parents. Now they won’t vaccinate until after their kids are sick & vaccinating sick kids is a contradiction.

Maybe dick pan can educate them on that.

Actually, measles vaccination is given to children when they are sick no more. It helps to prevent sequalae

Those kids in Samoa are dying because they are giving the MMR to already sick babies.

No, molecular epidemiological evidence demonstrates their dying of wild-type measles and yes, hopefully Dr. Pan will help educate and thwart RFK, Jr.’s efforts to cause further harms.

You are really and completely unhinged….I’m surprised that CPS hasn’t stepped in, given your obvious anger issues and inability to seek help on your own.

And seriously, you need to just [email protected] the [email protected] off – because these children are dying, and dying in a significant part due to parents refusing to bring their children to the hospital until its too late, because people like you have convinced them that the medical authorities are bad.

So, either get help for yourself or get lost. Because pandering to your victimhood is just old hat.

@ Lawrence,

That is seriously uncalled for. I AM angry; because something is very wrong about this outbreak & it has nothing to do with antivaxxers.

Based on ongoing eruptions of outbreaks in New Zealand (& Samoa’s calling off the MMR campaign in July 2018); Unicef (largely at the urging of the WHO), potentiated increased vaccine uptake by shipping 135,500 doses of the MMR to Samoa, 115,000 doses of the MMR to Fiji & 18,000 doses to Tonga; ALL on October 1, 2019 & the mass-immunization of the islands began.

By October 16; Samoa declared a measles outbreak.

By November 7; Fiji declares an outbreak.

By October 17; Tonga declares an outbreak.

Now what exactly do you think the island people are thinking? Heck; what is the whole world thinking? Not to mention that measles was only rarely fatal in Samoa previously & they get vaccinated & NOW kids are dying?

I am not accusing anybody of anything. I am asking you; what do YOU think … THEY are thinking?

@ Christine

Seriously, it’s the straw that you are grabbing for? That the local gov’s ordered vaccines before officially announcing that yep, they dropped the ball and there is a huge outbreak of measles going around?

Now what exactly do you think the island people are thinking?

I dunno. From the Newspapers, they seem scared and angry and confused.
Seems a normal reaction when you find yourself in the middle of a catastrophe.

Heck; what is the whole world thinking?

That you and your ilk are stupid.

Not to mention that measles was only rarely fatal in Samoa previously

1 to 2 death per 1000, as usual.when things are under control, the number of cases are few and the sick people receive quick and appropriate care.
(or maybe it was more. I dunno. Any source you would like to share about your baseless statements?)

& they get vaccinated

Vaccination in Samoa dropped to 31% of eligible people in the last 3 years. They are still below the 40% water mark, way away from the 90% threshold for group immunity.
IOW, there are now plenty of susceptible people. And the virus infected more than 4,000 people out of the 200,000 people of the island, meaning there are plenty of viral particles going around.
I expect things to get worse before they got better. Mass vaccination just started a few weeks ago. It will take a few weeks for the vaccine to do its job and confer immunity to the people who got it. In the meantime, even those who received the vaccine remain susceptible to the wild virus.
People who were infected recently will show up sick during the next two weeks. There is likely a lot of them. It the pattern holds, 1 to 2 percent of them will die.

& NOW kids are dying?

Yep. That’s what happens when people get sick en masse. A ‘rare’ event is suddenly happening very often.

You get what you wished for. Own it.

135,500 doses of the MMR to Samoa, 115,000 doses of the MMR to Fiji & 18,000 doses to Tonga; ALL on October 1, 2019 & the mass-immunization of the islands began.

Citations required. Many citations.
This is all the product of someone’s sick imagination. Contrary to Christine’s claim that “mass-immunization of the islands began” on October 1, here is a press release from the Fijian government from Oct 24:

In response to the outbreaks in the region, the Ministry has taken the following actions to prevent and respond to potential cases in Fiji:

Made the measles vaccine available for free to Fijians travelling overseas:- the public was advised in August that anyone travelling overseas should get vaccinated if they have not been vaccinated, or are unsure of their vaccination status

I have no idea why Christine is an ignorant moron but I am concerned by her insistence on smearing her stupid over everyone else.

Not to mention that measles was only rarely fatal in Samoa previously

As noted earlier, this is obscenely untrue. Christine knows nothing of Samoan history. She needs to stop sourcing factoids from her colon and SHUT THE FUCK UP. Failing that, she could go some place where there are many Samoans, lecture them about Samoan history, and let nature take its course.

The 1893-1894 measles epidemic killed over 1000 Samoans (out of a population of 34,500). The 1911 epidemic killed about 700.

ALL on October 1, 2019 & the mass-immunization of the islands began.

The Tongan government is unaware of any mass vaccination program. Perhaps you should inform them.

The UNICEF press release on November 28 states clearly how many vaccine doses they delivered to Samoa, Fiji and Tonga in October / November, i.e. “since October 1″.
https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/unicef-delivers-over-260000-vaccines-and-medical-supplies-fight-measles-outbreaks

Christine is twisting that to “delivered on October 1″ because she’s an obscene liar who really really really wants to believe that vaccines are the real cause of epidemics.

It’s likely more simple than that: they have no qualms using dead children as emotional chips for their stance.

@ Christine

You write: “Those kids in Samoa are dying because they are giving the MMR to already sick babies. Listen to this father. His girls who already had the Measles got the vaccine. He thinks the vaccine is a ‘cure’.”

Well, I listened several times to the video. Yep, he did take his two daughters to get the MMR vaccine; but we don’t know if they already had measles incubating in their bodies or actually had the measles (it sounds like they already had measles). However, if they didn’t already have measles, it could have been already incubating in their bodies: “For the first 10 to 14 days after you’re infected, the measles virus incubates. You have no signs or symptoms of measles during this time.” Given that there was an epidemic underway, the possibility of the child having already been infected is high. If so, then literally millions of fully potent viruses were coursing through their bodies and the immune system had been alerted; but it takes more than a week for it to reach full battle capability. So, if the virus was already in the kids bodies, adding a few severely weakened viruses would have NO effect, a few severely weakened in an ocean of millions of fully potent viruses. Even if the vaccine was given prior to exposure to measles, as I said, it takes more than a weak for the immune system to reach full battle potential and if exposed to measles prior to this, the virus would spread in the millions before the vaccine-induced immunity could take effect. BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE HE TOOK THEM TO GET VACCINATED AFTER MEASLES ERUPTED.

The fact that the father believes the vaccine can prevent AND cure is irrelevant. If the child had measles when arriving at the hospital/clinic they would NOT have given him/her the vaccine. He doesn’t say if they received the vaccine or not, just that he took them to the hospital. The signs and symptoms of measles are quite clear. Could some incompetent health care person give the vaccine to a kid clearly displaying measles, anything is possible; but if this happened, though highly unlikely, certainly not to the now over 60 who died.

Your mindset is to hear what you want to hear. You have an interview with one distraught parent, who, by the way, also made clear that the people seeking alternative treatments, e.g., Kagan water, were wasting their time. The only possible help from Kangan water was simply rehydration. It is water.

And despite what you choose to believe, divorced from reality, numerous studies have found that the risk of contracting measles, the severity, risk of hospitalization, risk of death, risk of long-term disabilities is much much higher for the unvaccinated. And these studies controlled for other factors that could have contributed.

Vaccinating within 48 hours of exposure can help avoid the disease tho, IIRC. I didn’t listen to the clip; I’m at work at the moment. So I can’t say where the girls were in terms of exposure/illness.

@ Joel,

BUT IT SOUNDS LIKE HE TOOK THEM TO GET VACCINATED AFTER MEASLES ERUPTED

Yes & it is vague. I had seen this same thing mentioned over & over by people in Samoa online but due to the translation issue I was reluctant to believe that one way or the other. When I saw the interview; it seemed to be confirming what I have been reading for the last several days.

The only possible help from Kangan water was simply rehydration. It is water

I totally agree. The ‘Kangan water machines’ reportedly cost around $7,000, so very few citizens can actually buy them & produce the water. Those who can are selling it at around $ 0.60 per 32 oz bottle to residents. I’m kind of baffled by this.

You conveniently ignore what I wrote. Maybe some incompetent healthcare employee gave vaccine to a couple of kids who clearly already had measles; but certainly not even close to the over 60 who died. In addition, if the kids were symptomatic then literally many millions of fully potent measles viruses would have been coursing through their bodies. The addition of a few extremely weakened viruses from a vaccine could NOT have had an effect. And, NO, the ingredients in the vaccine would NOT either. They include minute traces of an antibiotic, a little albumen (the protein in egg whites and plasma, clear part of our blood), traces of preservatives that can be found, for instance, in deli meats and candies, etc. You jump to the most extreme conclusion that vaccines given to kids already sick were responsible for their deaths, a conclusion based on your rigid delusional belief system, not logic, not science, etc.

And now you admit it was vague; but not when you encouraged us to view it. You really are disgusting!

A guide to understanding AV: https://www.assholesatheory.com/asshole-types/

“The Social Media Asshole feels empowered to insult others and make outlandish claims online as they do not fear repercussions for what they do or say given the lack of physical confrontation attached to these actions. Since they can avoid eye contact normally had in face-to-face interactions, they lack the empathy this normally produces. They are not beholden to consistent viewpoints, or a coherent worldview. For them, the goal is to sow discord and provoke asshole behaviour from otherwise reasonable individuals, hence being given the nicknames of ‘Trolls’ or ‘Haters’. They are a retaliatory sect and should be avoided. Citing ‘Freedom of Speech’ as protection for their antics is simply inappropriate.”

@ Orac,

Of course she’s antivax. That’s been obvious for quite some time

As much as I don’t want to; I think that I’d have to agree with you now.

I don’t think that when I first started commenting regularly here that I was. I didn’t THINK I was, at least.

I believe what sealed the deal for me actually happened right here when I was berated over the Peter Aaby studies. The vast majority of his work finds decidedly in favor of vaccination & I consider him a pro-vax scientist.

He found increased mortality with the DTP. He also found a way to mitigate that mortality by sequencing changes. He found less mortality associated with the MV & has reported it actually should be given earlier than it is.

But you know; he found a problem with the DTP & now none of his work is being taken seriously by the WHO. Had the WHO at least TRIED to look into it, instead of raising a bunch of flawed crypto-epidemiology from the grave to refute it?

Maybe I would have been taken more seriously when I tried to invoke him here. And then I would have been more willing to hear you out on other vaccine-related topics. Maybe I expected more from those here regarding science-based mentalities.

In reality; you as a doctor has no place being either pro or anti-vaccine. You should be pro-SCIENCE.

Vaccines should be held to the same standards in science as anything else. Not have their own elite status AS a science.

In light of all that; I can’t be pro-‘Aaby vaccines’ or vaccines at all. Not until they are science-based, I just can’t.

So call me anti-vaccine. I’m down.

Maybe I would have been taken more seriously when I tried to invoke him here. And then I would have been more willing to hear you out on other vaccine-related topics. Maybe I expected more from those here regarding science-based mentalities.

The problem is is that you take Aaby’s studies in a vacuum AND you don’t interpret them correctly. You think you’re right and now you’re frustrated because we don’t see your brilliance and thus blame us for “turning” you anti-vaxx. Don’t you take responsibility for anything you do? And hint: being pro-vaxx corresponds to being pro-science no matter what perverted thoughts you have.

In developing countries, DTP may have better results if given later… Therefore vaccines cause autism. Yeah, not the most convincing analysis in the world.

Yes, antivaxers love to blame science advocates for “turning” them antivax. They remind me of Trump supporters blaming “PC” liberals calling out racism and misogyny for “turning” them into Trump supporters. My response is always: Bullshit! If all it took was a few liberals criticizing racism to turn you to Trump, then the predisposition and tendency was already there in you, if you weren’t already a Trump supporter. Similarly, if all it took was relatively mild criticism over her misinterpretation and misuse of Aaby’s studies to “turn” Christine” antivax, she was already at least halfway, if not at least 75% of the way, there.

@Orac: “Yes, antivaxers love to blame science advocates for “turning” them antivax.”

“Look what you made me do!”—every abuser

@Renate: I’m thinking mental and emotional abusers (though the “curebie” wing certainly does physical abuse as well). The attitude to autistic kids in particular always brings to mind r/raisedbynarcissists. Predatory and parasitic, and utterly entitled.

@ Dorit,

Agreeing with or saying something antivaccine does not result is ‘identifying as’. Part of me held out hope. I’m not hoping anymore. Why should I? Would it change your mind about me?

@ Orac,

You have a lot of epidemiology that has found vaccines not to be correlated with SIDS or ASD.

You have no etiological evidence for SIDS or ASD, besides that of immune-mediation.

And day after day to year after year; parents are stating that a vaccine killed or disabled their child.

The anecdotal is defying the epidemiology. The etiology cannot be established to point away from vaccines. In fact; the etiology is pointing towards immune-mediation for both. So the epidemiology is now in defiance of the anecdotal AND lacks support of the etiological evidence.

If it were anything else but vaccines; you would have to be questioning the epidemiology by now.

But it’s vaccines so you are not.

You would, actually, need more than anecdotes and non-expert theories to challenge large epidemiological studies in other areas, too.

When study after study after study shows the same, large population studies, from all around the world, and you don’t have any real data to counter, you are simply denying the evidence.

You have no etiological evidence for SIDS or ASD, besides that of immune-mediation.

Since you don’t bother to use your education, then don’t ever try to use it as cred because this is really ignorant. A.) You are wrong about ASDs; we do know some aetiologies and once again, you are abusing the scientific literature by claiming “immune mediated”. That has not been established. Anti-vaxxers don’t respect science and allow for evidence to accumulate; you just jump on a minutia of detail and run with your hair on fire. B.) SIDS is a diagnosis of exclusion and if vaccines were causing cot deaths then there would be a consistent pathology and wouldn’t be SIDS. You should know this but opt for dishonesty and/or ignorance.

The anecdotal is defying the epidemiology. The etiology cannot be established to point away from vaccines. In fact; the etiology is pointing towards immune-mediation for both. So the epidemiology is now in defiance of the anecdotal AND lacks support of the etiological evidence.

I see you are using Jay Gordon’s “study” hierarchy. No, anecdotes don’t trump evidence and even though aetiology cannot be fully established doesn’t mean that we haven’t accumulated sufficient evidence to rule out culprits like vaccines. Even knuckle-dragging your way through this would tell you that if it were vaccines, then the wild-type diseases would be far worse and ASD prevalence would have declined with widespread use of vaccines. Stay with your hive, they might be impressed but you are increasing looking more foolish with every comment here.

“The anecdotal is defying the epidemiology.”

It is impossible to describe the stupidity of that comment.

Christine Kincaid: “In reality; you as a doctor has no place being either pro or anti-vaccine. You should be pro-SCIENCE”.

In reality, to be pro-science is to be pro-vaccine.

Also, you have always been an antivaxxer, so don’t go blaming people here for turning you into an antivaxxer.
That is a lie and you know it.
Please at least be honest about that.

I am truly sick of people like you and RFK claiming they are pro-vaccine when they clearly are antivax.
Please at least accept what you are.

Billie Joe,

While I balked at saying I was antivaccine; I have never claimed I was pro-vaccine. Yes; I believe I have heard RFK jr say that but I never have.

Christine Kincade,

To say you are better than RFKjr (by not lying and saying your are pro-vaccine) is not saying much in your defence. On the other hand, you have no problem in lying and saying your are not antivax. Of course you are antivax. Read all your comments. They are straight out of the antivax blogosphere. If it quacks like a duck….

(And it’s BillyJoe, not Billie Joe).

@ Joel,

I believe they are vaccinating sick kids & that IS a contraindication. Why is that ‘disgusting’ on my part?

I suppose time will tell; when Samoa is no longer in a state-of-emergency & the people can communicate freely.

I believe they are vaccinating sick kids & that IS a contraindication.

It was my understanding that the main reason for that contraindication is because the vaccine may not be optimally efficient (i.e; more likely not to confer a good immunity) in someone who already has some sickness.
Not because people will suddenly turn green and die.
If you have any evidence supporting your claims, please share.

Also, there are plenty of official protocols for treating a specific illness that incorporate the injection of the vaccine for that specific illness. Tetanus and rabies are on top of my mind, but as told to you by other people here, it’s also the case for measles.
So it seems to me this contraindication is not absolute.

Speaking about measles mortality:
Shanks, G. Dennis and Lee, Seung-Eun and Howard, Alan and Brundage, John F.,
Extreme Mortality After First Introduction of Measles Virus to the Polynesian Island of Rotuma, 1911,
American Journal of Epidemiology, 173, 10, 1211-1222, 2011
“Rotuma is an isolated Polynesian island. In January 1911, most residents of Rotuma (population approximately 2,600) were exposed to measles virus for the first time. The official mortality register documented 491 deaths due to all causes among Rotumans during 1911 (cumulative measles-related mortality: 12.8%); most deaths occurred in April–May and were attributed to measles and its sequelae. Measles-related mortality rates were higher among young children (23.4 per 100 person-years) and young adults (17.1 per 100 person-years) than among adolescents (11.0 per 100 person-years) and older adults (5.6 per 100 person-years); females (16.2 per 100 person-years) died at a higher rate than males (13.2 per 100 person-years). Gastrointestinal complications (75%), not respiratory complications, were the predominant clinical manifestations of fatal measles cases; tuberculosis mortality was unusually high during the year of the epidemic. In 1911, measles-related mortality varied by nearly 3-fold across geographic districts (range, 7.4%–21.6%.”
https://doi.org/10.1093/aje/kwq504,
And this happened 1911, so this cannot be a vaccine manufacturers’ plot.

In the same year, in Samoa, “In 1911 measles and dysentery claimed 657 lives”.
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-WenGua-c2.html

“The high death rate in 1911 was caused by outbreaks of measles and dysentery between April and June and, as the first measles epidemic had occurred only eighteen years before, it is not surprising that most of the deaths in 1911 were amongst children.”
https://openresearch-repository.anu.edu.au/bitstream/1885/115018/2/b1063860x.pdf

@ Christine Kincaid

You wrote: “They are using mainly the Priorix MMR from India & they are vaccinating children already sick with the Measles, based on an excerpt from the insert that it can be used up to 72 hours post-exposure. This is the same vaccine that caused the Samoan people to decline vaccinating after SEVERAL (not just two) died after receiving the MMR…They are causing death by vaccinating sick kids.”

According to Radio New Zealand, the two nurses involved in these Samoan vaccine deaths pleaded guilty to manslaughter and obstruction of justice charges. Their negligence led to the deaths of two children caused by improper reconstituting of the vaccines (the MMR vaccine is shipped in a lyophilized form and must be reconstituted with a buffer solution, called diluent). Because it was clear that the nurses’ negligence was directly linked to the deaths, and not the vaccine itself, Samoa restarted its MMR vaccination program in March 2019 (Skeptical Raptor, 2019).

The insert does state: “protection against measles may be obtained by vaccination up to 72 hours after exposure to natural measles. If the vaccination status of the child is in doubt, the vaccine should be given as there are no ill effects of vaccinating individuals who are already immune” (GSK Australia, 2019)

Apparently you don’t understand the difference between being exposed and being symptomatic. Once exposed, measles incubates in the body for 10 – 12 days. Maybe you don’t understand that 72 hours is only three days? Long before they would be symptomatic. So, the man interviewed in the video you referred to states: “his two daughters CONTRACTED (my emphasis) measles. [he] took his kids to hospital”. CONTRACTED. A reasonable person would interpret this to mean they were symptomatic. So, yep, some incompetent health care person might have given them the vaccine; but highly unlikely. And how would the vaccine have contributed to their deaths? It is composed of a severely weakened measles virus. If they were already symptomatic, they would have literally millions of fully potent measles viruses coursing through their bodies. How would a few severely weakened viruses have an effect? And if you read the ingredients, minute traces of an antibiotic, etc. Did you know that we are exposed to antibiotics on a daily basis thanks to people flushing unused pills, etc. into our water supplies?

You write: “The same vaccine of which 6,000 doses of had to be destroyed recently, after being discovered as ‘illicit’ & not stored properly.”
I love almond butter. Several years ago it was difficult to get because one of the largest suppliers was found contaminated with salmonella. Well, once a supply without salmonella was available I grabbed it up. And I’ve sometimes bought an item that when I got home noticed the expiry date was long overdue (most items quite safe for several weeks after expiry date), so I took them back to the store. You attack a vaccine for not being stored properly. If one followed your logic, it would be the end of many products on the market, including beneficial drugs and foods.

You write: “They are causing death by vaccinating sick kids. Measles was rarely fatal, even in Samoa; prior to this.” In the U.S. during the 1950s with less than half current population, 50,000 kids on average were hospitalized for measles, 300 – 500 died, a number were left deaf or with other problems. Yep, fatality rate was lower in U.S.; but Samoa is a poor country. Deaths can be explained by many not getting health care in time, e.g., antibiotics for secondary bacterial pneumonias, perhaps some malnourished, lacking certain vitamins, etc. But blaming it on the vaccine is absolutely absurd. Yep, if vaccine improperly prepared; but they caught that and as I wrote above, there is absolutely NO valid reason that giving a few more severely weakened viruses would have any effect.

You write: “Just like I did & YOU could have searched social media to read the conversations of Samoans; just like I did.” Yep, that’s where one should get valid medical information. Yikes! What people post on social media regarding vaccines and infectious diseases has about as much validity as posts of possession and exorcisms. Did you really study medicine? If so, if social media had existed then, would you have prepped for exams by focusing on it?

You again jumped to an antivax stance with the Dengue vaccine used in the Philippines. BillyJoe DECEMBER 5, 2019 AT 9:26 PM did a great job refuting you.

You jumped on the deaths of two children, parents Karl and Christine Laulu, who died after receiving an MMR vaccine. However, you missed that both children were suspected of having a severe autoimmune disease (Stuff, 2018), a rare genetic disease. Could the vaccines have triggered their deaths. Yep; but if the vaccine, containing a severely weakened measles virus did this, then exposure to fully potent measles would have been just as deadly. So what to do? Even in the U.S. with our vast resources we can’t test for every possible immune problem before vaccinating. However, the risk is small; but, if we could test and not vaccinate only children with immune problems, then it is extremely important to build up herd immunity so they are protected. Given your fanatical antivax position, jumping to the most extreme interpretations, I doubt you understand this. We don’t live in a perfect world. Vaccines aren’t perfect; but the benefits far outweigh the risks. And Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc, after something thus because of it, is not a valid scientific argument. So, without knowing of an autoimmune disease, especially a rare one, any reasonable person would see vaccination as the right choice. Reasonable person, something you are NOT! If we based decisions on you, fewer and fewer kids would be vaccinated and with the lack of herd immunity more and more would suffer. Every death, especially of a child, is tragic; but to ensure no potential risk from vaccines to protect a possible rare occurrence you would consign exponentially more to severe risks.

You write: “Not to mention that measles was only rarely fatal in Samoa previously & they get vaccinated & NOW kids are dying?”

As discussed already, if most kids were vaccinated then the few who developed measles would have had a much better chance of receiving medical attention, including antibiotics and, if indicated, specific vitamins. With a low vaccination rate, a poor nations health care system would be overwhelmed.

You write: “Those kids in Samoa are dying because they are giving the MMR to already sick babies. Listen to this father. His girls who already had the Measles got the vaccine. He thinks the vaccine is a ‘cure’. Way to educate parents. Now they won’t vaccinate until after their kids are sick & vaccinating sick kids is a contradiction.”

I’ve addressed this already above and in another comment; but then you write: “Yes & it is vague. I had seen this same thing mentioned over & over by people in Samoa online but due to the translation issue I was reluctant to believe that one way or the other. When I saw the interview; it seemed to be confirming what I have been reading for the last several days.”

“It is vague” but you rely on what is on social media. Yikes!

You write: “You have a lot of epidemiology that has found vaccines not to be correlated with SIDS or ASD. You have no etiological evidence for SIDS or ASD, besides that of immune-mediation. And day after day to year after year; parents are stating that a vaccine killed or disabled their child. The anecdotal is defying the epidemiology. The etiology cannot be established to point away from vaccines. In fact; the etiology is pointing towards immune-mediation for both. So the epidemiology is now in defiance of the anecdotal AND lacks support of the etiological evidence.”

Anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence. In 1976, during the swine flu debacle, a physician in Minnesota listened to a cassette tape on Guillain-Barre Syndrome. He was tired and misunderstood it, so he sent CDC a case report of a patient who developed GB after receiving the vaccine. It was reported in the MMWR. Then lots of reports on GB following vaccination came in. Years later, a team went through all the medical records they could find and most cases weren’t GB. In addition, the U.S. military received a double dose of the vaccine with lower GB than normally expected and Holland also used the normal dose with lower rates than expected. Final decision was that the swine flu vaccine was responsible for a slightly increased risk of GB. I disagree with the findings; but the point is that even in the medical profession, once an anecdote is reported it can lead to others. As for your view of epidemiology, not one; but dozens of studies conducted around the world on different populations, by different researchers, etc. you just show your ignorance of how powerful epidemiological studies are.

As for etiology? Numerous studies have found ASD and genetic arrays that could NOT have developed post-partum. Studies that have found videos of kids prior to receiving the MMR have found autistic-like behaviors. Yep, autistic-like because not as pronounced as later on so unnoticed except when experts involved. And language problems, delays, etc. wouldn’t be noticed because language mainly develops after MMR given. Autopsies of kids on Spectrum, e.g., died in car accidents, found abnormal brain formations that could only have occurred during gestation in womb. Do we have a definitive cause for autism. NO! In fact, that would be impossible because it isn’t AUTISM, it is Autism Spectrum Disorders, that is a group of conditions that have some things in common and others not in common. Aspergers wasn’t officially recognized until 1994, one more increase in the so-called autism epidemic. Well, in the latter part of the 1800s leukemia, a blood cancer previously thought to be an infectious disease was added, increasing the number of cases of “cancer.” And on and on it goes.

And a great book by Phillip and Mary Landrigan “Children and Environmental Toxins” includes discussion of ASD where some toxins if fetus exposed to associated with ASD; but not a toxin found in vaccines.

Finally you write: “I believe they are vaccinating sick kids & that IS a contraindication. Why is that ‘disgusting’ on my part? I suppose time will tell; when Samoa is no longer in a state-of-emergency & the people can communicate freely.”

I’ve already discussed why highly unlikely they would be vaccinating symptomatic kids and why if they did impossible, except with a rare genetic condition, that it could contribute to deaths. But if vaccinating kid with severe genetic autoimmune disease who is already symptomatic, well, any reasonable person would see the actual disease as the cause of death.

What is disgusting about you is how you jump to the extreme conclusion that it was the vaccine in most cases. With you, it’s always the vaccine. As for the people communicating, once more you prefer anecdotes to science.

Just to summarize: You jump to conclusion that MMR caused death of two siblings. Turns out they may have had a rare autoimmune disease which would have meant that during an epidemic because of low vaccinations rates they would have most likely have died. So, tragic; but this is where you should have emphasized the importance of herd immunity. You discount epidemiology and rely on anecdotes. You seem unaware of the genetic research, the autopsy finding of brain formation on kids with ASD, the studies where videotapes found prior to getting the MMR. Of findings that if fetus exposed to certain toxins can lead to ASD.

And you probably don’t know that after a huge epidemic in the mid 1960s of rubella that a number of cases of autism were found. In other words, full-blown rubella associated with Autism. In fact, there were almost 40,000 cases in one year of miscarriages, stillbirths, and congenital rubella syndrome (deafness, blindness, seizure disorders, mental retardation, and microcephaly). You can read all about it in: Meredith Wadman’s “The Vaccine Race”.

So, yes, you are disgusting. I imagine if you were on a jury and decided someone was guilty after the prosecution presented its case you would ignore the defense, e.g., discrediting one of the witnesses. Once you formed your opinion, damn any contradictory evidence. I have followed wrongful convictions since my pre-teen years and one finding is some jurors who vote guilty while uncertain then build up in their minds that even if innocent of current charges guilty of others not brought so OK to find guilty. Ring a bell?

References:

GSK Australia (accessed 2019 Dec 6). PRIORIX® PRODUCT INFORMATION. Available at: https://au.gsk.com/media/217225/priorix_pi_005_approved.pdf

Skeptical Raptor (2019 Aug 6). Samoan vaccine tragedy – two nurses sentenced to five years in prison. Available at: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/samoan-vaccine-tragedy-update/

Personally, I find her disgusting because she has zero respect for her son’s privacy (in the guise of “telling the truth about autism”) and has outright admitted that she’s here because she wants to hurt people, as if that will make her own misery more bearable. (“I spread antivax truth to you who need it the most so that in the future, when that cognitive dissonance knocks you on your ass? You will remember me & feel even worse. Your time is coming & when it does it’s going to hurt.”)

Yep. She comes off as an hysterical, irrational, illogical, loon. Hard to believe she may be a licensed doctor. Found same name on Google listed as doctor of internal medicine in Morgantown, West Virginia. If it’s her, I sure as hell would NOT go to her ever! ! !

As for her child’s privacy. On the one hand I agree; but even Peter Hotez, someone I greatly admire for devoting his life to going to developing nations to treat people, getting medical supplies to them, and researching/developing vaccines for diseases mainly in developing nations, discusses his adult daughter’s autism.

It is the conclusion and hysteria of cause of her child’s condition that is the main problem.

In any case, she and Greg are the epitome of antivaxxers, that is, irrational, unscientific, people who attack others who disagree with them, who pick and choose anything that confirms their rigid beliefs, even misreading or grossly exaggerating, etc. Welcome to the world where, for instance, studies have found that 70 – 80% of Americans lack the basics of science and critical thinking, even, apparently, some doctors who should know better.

Glad to hear he got his daughter’s permission. I have no problem with that situation. But the trend of some parents to parade their children’s issues for pats on the backs and clicks really bothers me, and that some people do so to bolster a personal agenda is even worse.

Hard to believe she may be a licensed doctor. Found same name on Google listed as doctor of internal medicine in Morgantown, West Virginia. If it’s her, I sure as hell would NOT go to her ever! ! !

Thank FSM she’s not a doctor; she’s a nurse though and hopefully, not a currently active one.

But the trend of some parents to parade their children’s issues for pats on the backs and clicks really bothers me, and that some people do so to bolster a personal agenda is even worse.

Chaps my bum too. Polly and her daughter Bella Tomey are some of the worst given their platform. They along with their VAXXED cult-followers and the creatures inhabiting AoA (you know, Greg’s people) routinely exploit their children for pity parties.

Doritmi write: “Dr. Hotez consulted with his daughter before writing his book and got her agreement for discussing it. It’s mentioned in the book.”

I read the book some time ago. My memory isn’t as good as it once was; however,

a. Many parents do describe their children’s conditions on the internet, TV, and in testifying. Some seeking a support group. Some seeking donations to help with their care. And some seeking donations to a non-profit. In addition, parents do testify before Congress, State legislatures, and in courts. I doubt most got their minor children’s permission.
b. While I am not an expert on Autism, nor Peter Hotez daughter Rachel’s abilities, I wonder how much she understands about what discussing her condition entails.

Obviously, Christine Kincaid goes way over any ethical line. I’m just not sure and wouldn’t want to decide where the line should be. I’ll leave that up to others.

@ Science Mom. Glad to hear Kincaid isn’t a doctor. She isn’t the only nurse who is rabidly anti vaccines. Retired Scottish nurse Wendy Stephen is another.

@ Terrie,

When I experienced cognitive dissonance regarding vaccines after years of being provaccine; I really felt bad about how I had treated people who were only trying to help me. I mocked them & rolled my eyes & was basically a total bitch.

I got knocked on my ass.

If it happened to me it could happen to anybody.

I have never claimed I was pro-vaccine

I experienced cognitive dissonance regarding vaccines after years of being provaccine

There is something sublime in such oblivious uninterest in maintaining a consistent story.

Joel: ‘The same vaccine of which 6,000 doses of had to be destroyed recently”

Just to be clear. It was 60 doses, not 60000 doses. The 6000 quoted figure was an error. They were destroyed because they were not properly refrigerated, which would have compromised their effectiveness. A clinic that was not authorised to give the vaccines somehow obtained 60 doses of the vaccine which they failed to properly refrigerate and which they also tried to sell to patients rather than give free of charge.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/samoa-measles-epidemic-authorities-forced-to-destroy-vaccines-as-death-toll-hits-32

Thanks. It did seem extremely high that so many doses would have been improperly handled. However, my point was that if one rejects any drug, vaccine, or food that was improperly handled, well, we would be in real trouble. Typical hypocrisy and stupidity of antivaxxers to equate improperly handled with the product itself.

Thanks again. Another article downloaded to my file on Samoa.

“A clinic that was not authorised to give the vaccines somehow obtained 60 doses of the vaccine which they failed to properly refrigerate and which they also tried to sell to patients rather than give free of charge.”

So, stinking grifters trying to profit on fear and suffering. No wonder antivaxxers are crawling all over it. Smells like home.

“I suppose time will tell; when Samoa is no longer in a state-of-emergency & the people can communicate freely.”

Translation: Christine is not hearing what she wants to hear through social media, so she has convinced herself that Samoa is under some kind of Chinese-wall lock-down to suppress The Truth.

@ Joel,

*While I am not an expert on Autism, nor Peter Hotez daughter Rachel’s abilities, I wonder how much she understands about what discussing her condition entails.

Obviously, Christine Kincaid goes way over any ethical line. I’m just not sure and wouldn’t want to decide where the line should be. I’ll leave that up to others*

My son could never give or decline consent. He knows he is autistic but does not understand what that means. He has never been told about vaccines. He would not understand vaccines. If he can’t understand vaccines; how could I possibly gain his consent to write a book about his autism & vaccines?

I will not be writing a book.

My son writes scripts with autistic characters who interact with the other characters without limitations or indications of disability. I like that.

As a side note; if Hoetz’s daughter understands enough to give informed consent; I can’t imagine he is a highly-impacted autism parent. Add to that his above-average standing in being able to access therapy & resources? Minimally impacted. I’m happy for his daughter that she can at least benefit from that.

I’ve seen three year olds communicate that they don’t want people talking about them. You’ve spilled enough details about yourself and your son that he would, if anyone so choose, be very easy to track down in the real world. No book required. You really have no respect for his privacy.

Obviously you refuse to even understand what I wrote. Instead you give the anecdote of your son. I made it clear that whether a parent discusses their child’s problems, where to draw the line, is something I am not expert enough to decide; but I did give examples. As for Peter Hotez daughter’s level of capability, as any reasonable person understands (reasonable doesn’t include you), autism is multi-factorial. How arrogant of you to “can’t imagine he is a highly-impacted autism parent.”

Why don’t you try, just a little effort, to leave your world and be open to the world around you, not seeing everything from your own experiences, your own perception of them. I realize this is asking an impossibility.

@ Joel,

As for etiology? Numerous studies have found ASD and genetic arrays that could NOT have developed post-partum. Studies that have found videos of kids prior to receiving the MMR have found autistic-like behaviors

Obviously, we are born with our genes as determined upon conception.

But autism is multi-factorial, immune-mediated genetic disorder. Many people can be born with many of the 300+ genetic variants associated with ASD but they will not regress into autism.

That’s why it is called multi-factorial.

Can’t a person overcome a genetic predisposition to heart disease by mitigating risk factors & changing their environment & lifestyle?

We KNOW that autistic regression occurs after an atypical immune-response has caused atypical synaptic pruning by the microglia (immune cells) in the brain. The synapses affected are the LEARNING-BASED synapses that begin to develop around age 2.

Surely, a pathogen encountered by a pregnant woman COULD cause maternal immune activation & lead to an infant being born with ‘blunted’ neurological development. As is seen with Rubella.

But the vast majority of children with autism have literally REGRESSED into autism, after what could only have been an atypical immune-response. Autism is immune-mediated. Vaccines are immune-mediating. There is evidence that children with Autism have a high prevalence of similar variants on their Interleukin genes. These Interleukin genes have already been discovered to be associated with atypical immune-responses.

Those ‘autism genes’ ARE the immune-mediating genes. IL-1, 4 & 18 variants can specifically cause atypical responses to not only the measles virus but the measles vaccine. Already KNOWN to lead to a higher risk of SAE’s to the vaccine & also non-responder status.

They are the same.

That is very significant but for some reason; the epidemiology is not signaling the risk. Is it not reasonable to wonder if there could be unintentional bias in the design of these epidemiological studies?

Those ‘autism genes’ ARE the immune-mediating genes. IL-1, 4 & 18 variants can specifically cause atypical responses to not only the measles virus but the measles vaccine.

Once again, these are not genes.

Exchange the word “variants” for “expression,” and Christine hits a grand slam.

@ Narad,

Oops, sorry… baseball has nothing to do with cytokines. 🙂

Exchange the word “variants” for “expression,”

Err, no.
Either way, this is cargo cult science.

We KNOW that autistic regression occurs after an atypical immune-response has caused atypical synaptic pruning by the microglia (immune cells) in the brain.

Well, no. You keep saying that, much as you say things like this

ASD is an act of Man … not God nor evolution. It evidences Man’s continued inability to ignore the forbidden fruit.

and this

[the thunderbird] had wings more skin-like than feathered due to the “unfurling” sound it made on the outstretch of the wings combined with the eardrum popping “boom” it made on the downswing combined with the force of air that knocked me backwards.

What you write here and elsewhere is a symptom of your disorder. Posting here is not therapy, it’s part of your problem. You need to seek help elsewhere.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “We KNOW that autistic regression occurs after an atypical immune-response has caused atypical synaptic pruning by the microglia (immune cells) in the brain. The synapses affected are the LEARNING-BASED synapses that begin to develop around age 2..” Who is “We?” The basic confirmation of the brain, areas larger than normal, other smaller, and number of connections formed in utero, where most pruning takes place, some during early infancy, before receiving the MMR and years ago before receiving the HepB. I could give you numerous references; but given your hysterical misrepresentation of research, I doubt it would do any good. One can almost always find a study or two with results one looks for; but science looks at the cumulative studies. Even the best conducted placebo double-blind randomized clinical trial can end in results influenced by some unmeasured variable that the randomization process did not distribute equally between the two groups.

You write: “But the vast majority of children with autism have literally REGRESSED into autism, after what could only have been an atypical immune-response.”

Nope, the majority don’t regress; but we now have found several genetic diseases that children who normally develop suddenly begin to regress, regardless of being vaccinated or not. Check out Landau-Kleffner syndrome, Rett syndrome.

Some other interesting genetic diseases, not exactly regression; but, for instance, Dravet Syndrome

You write: “Is it not reasonable to wonder if there could be unintentional bias in the design of these epidemiological studies?”

The studies have been conducted in several different nations on different populations by different researchers, etc. How in hell would ALL of these researchers have the same “unintentional bias?” Admit it, you subscribe to a paranoid conspiracy theory. These researchers studied medicine, epidemiology, genetics, etc. at different universities, etc. They live in nations with different cultures, different economic systems, different health care systems; yet you find it “reasonable” they would all have the same “unintentional bias.” You are really tiresome. No, it is NOT reasonable! ! !

By the way, are you the Christine Kincaid listed as nurse practitioner at fertility clinic in North Carolina?

Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH writes,

“By the way, are you the Christine Kincaid listed as nurse practitioner at fertility clinic in North Carolina?”

MJD says,

A minority of Orac’s minions REGRESS to insolence. Apologise to Christine or I’ll ask Orac to have you placed in auto-moderation with me.

Feel free to ask Orac whatever you please. Another commenter said that Kincaid was a nurse since I mentioned I found someone by the same name as a doctor of internal medicine. Simple question which, of course, she need not answer. I’ll reserve calling you what I think of you.

Joel,

“connections formed in utero, where most pruning takes place, some during early infancy, before receiving the MMR”

I would be a little careful here. Some parts of the brain complete development much later. For example, the prefrontal cortex, which is involved in executive function, personality expression, and the modification of social behaviour, does not complete development until the mid twenties.

It is the reason why personality and social behaviour is far more the result of “environment” than “genetics” compared with other human attributes. And it is part of the evolution of brain plasticity. Survival is improved if you have a brain that can adjust to the circumstances of the environment into which you were born.

It is also the reason why the teenage and early adult years are so problematic. Lots of emotional reactions due to hormonal changes acting on the fully developed amygdala but with an incompletely developed prefrontal cortex to exert executive to control over those emotional reactions.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

I’ve just found about a dozen recent peer-reviewed articles on Autism and regression. It’s late and I’m tired so I’ll look at them tomorrow. However, skimming them, none found regression to be in the majority of cases and several mentioned that prior to noticing regression there were earlier signs of ASD. I am aware of some aspects of brain development, e.g., teenagers; however, as far as I can tell they don’t relate to the specifics of ASD. As I said, I’ll try to get to the articles tomorrow; but may take more than a day.

Joel,

I was not implying anything about ASD in my comment. Only that “pruning” continues in some areas of the brain long after “early infancy”. As I said, in the prefrontal cortex, “pruning” continues up to about 25 years of age.

@ BillyJoe and Joel:

I’m tired and can’t get detailed BUT ..
true, some aspects of brain development in PFC occur in adolescence and early adulthood AND
also, true, aspects of development ( see columns) associated with ASDs occur prenatally. In fact, if pregnant women take certain meds during gestation, ASDs happen. Other interference at this time as well.

ALSO:
I’ve seen similar about regression.
Related: parents may see ‘regression’ but experts observe earlier problems ( see Cedillo) Parents didn’t see problems that were there.

@ Christine

REGRESSION IN AUTISM

You wrote: “But the vast majority of children with autism have literally REGRESSED into autism, after what could only have been an atypical immune-response.” (December 7 1:46 pm) I’ll have to discuss pruning and interleukins in a later comment or, perhaps, an article, as I now have well over 50 articles on the subject.

“About one-third of young children with ASD lose some skills during the preschool
period, usually speech, but sometimes also nonverbal communication, social or play skills are also affected. There is a lot of evidence suggesting that most children who demonstrate regression also had previous, subtle, developmental differences (my emphasis).” (Al Backer, 2015)

“Rates and onset of regression were meta-analyzed from 85 articles representing 29,035 participants with autism spectrum disorders (ASD). Overall prevalence rate for regression was 32.1, 95 % CI [29.5, 34.8] occurring at mean of 1.78 years, 95 % CI [1.67, 1.89]. Regression prevalence rates differed according to four types of regression: language regression, 24.9 %; language/social regression, 38.1 %; mixed regression, 32.5 %; and unspecified regression, 39.1 %. Regression prevalence also differed according to sampling method: population-based prevalence was 21.8 %, clinic-based prevalence was 33.6 %, and parent survey-based prevalence was 40.8 %. Risk of regression was equal for males and females, but higher for individuals diagnosed with autism versus another ASD.” (Barger, 2013)

“Therefore, it is also very difficult to summarize results on regression rates, onset, domains, etiology, early development and outcomes that are broadly varying and depend on the specificity and inclusiveness of the definition of regression, the sampling methods and the methodology (e.g., retrospective or prospective approaches) used. . . it is also important to distinguish a loss of skills from a stagnation of skills or “plateau” since in some children a loss of skills could be simply a failure to progress their acquired skills to a more developmentally advanced level. It is possible that in many of the studies on regression, children with a plateau pattern in language development, social and other skills were wrongly included in the early onset or regression group. Up to now, six articles distinguished the plateau pattern from regression with rates ranging from 8 to 23.1% . . . Retrospective research has not yet provided clear answers about whether there is a distinct subtype of children with ASD and regression with a particular etiology and developmental course. Further, the original division between early onset and regressive ASD appears to be too rigid since a substantial number of children present with atypicalities in their early development before the onset of clear regression and some children seem to stagnate rather than to lose skills (my emphasis).” (Boterberg, 2019)

Note that not one of the papers came close to the “vast majority of children with autism have literally REGRESSED into autism.” Each of the papers address problems in definition as well as sources. As I’ve already mentioned, at some point parents may notice a clear problem, not having noticed subtle or even obvious previous instances. “Parental recall is not always accurate” (Pearson, 2018)

Note there was also mention that the loss of language skills may, in some cases, reflect early echoing, mimicking of words/language, not true language skills.

In any case, as usual, you hysterically grossly exaggerate what the science says. It is NOT “the vast majority.”

As for research on reasons for regression, I’ll have to postpone to a later date. So far over 50 articles and a few ABSTRACTS that I e-mailed to colleagues who have access to online journals.

One last point. I also found several well-done studies showing NO association between MMR and regression. I won’t bother to list them.

References:

Al Backer NB (2015). Developmental regression in autism spectrum disorder: Review Article. Sudanese Journal of Pediatrics, Vol. 15. Issue No. 1. Pages 21 – 26.

Barger BD, Campabell JM, McDonough JD (2013). Prevalence and Onset of Regression within Autism Spectrum Disorders: A Meta-analytic Review. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. Vol. 43. Pages 817 -828.

Boterberg S, Charman T, Marschik PB, Bölte S, Roeyers H (2019). Regression in autism spectrum disorder: A critical overview of retrospective findings and recommendations for future research. Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Reviews. Vol 102. Pages 24 – 55.

Pearson N, Charman T, Happé E et al (2018 Dec). Regression in autism spectrum disorder: Reconciling findings from retrospective and prospective research. Autism Research. Vol. 11 No 12. Pages 1602-1620.

Note. either ABSTRACTS or the pdf of article can be found by simply typing in Google complete title.

@ BillyJoe

I have collected way more articles, more than 50, to go through and write a short comment. However, just skimming some did find pruning after birth; but also structural abnormalities and genetic mutations formed in utero. Some of the articles I could only find ABSTRACTS, so e-mail some colleagues who have access to electronic databases and hope they will help.

Your input always welcome and valuable. Forces me to look deeper into a subject. Though also takes time from other things I’d like to be doing. Oh well.

@Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH:

What you say is very similar to what I’ve found. Although brains develop and pruning occurs at various critical periods IN ALL SUBJECTS, many PFC differences that comprise ASD occur prenatally. I especially recall the material about columns . A few commenters here know about prenatal development associated with autism ( brian? Alain?) Courchesne’s studies as well.

It is clear that differences occur PRIOR TO MOST VACCINES because we can we see early indicators of ASDs in infancy. 1These kids respond differently to faces/ adults ( gaze, focus on different parts of faces) ;2 there are brain wave differences. 3Kids may have different facial proportions ( measured accurately and clearly visible) and 4larger heads.**( some variants smaller heads- Chris provided a good lecture video about genetics and head size ,etc) 5Other patterns of movement ( early videos like those of Cedillo- her parents thought the videos showed that that she was average, not ASD/ experts differed) 6Of course there are genetic differences revealed as well ( and de novo variation) . 7Reactions to mothers’ infections, meds in gestation show prenatal genesis.

Two of the most vocal anti-vax mothers ( Rossi and Wright) complain about “money wasted” studying genetics and gaze. Of course they would: it shows that vaccines are not the issue.

Someone who is good at this should compile all of these studies. HINT HINT.

** and how could vaccines do that?

Dr Eric Courchesne explains the underlying brain biology of autism 19 minutes AutismSciFd YouTube
Not new news -btw-

Interesting about facial differences. I know that some kids with FASDs end up with autism diagnoses, even when they have the textbook facial features, if alcohol exposure cannot be confirmed — and many mothers deny alcohol usage. Studies have shown that it also results in some immune abnormalities.

Given the rate of FASDs is estimated at around 1 in 100 live births, you know it has to account of a solid percentage of autism cases.

I actually met Courchesne several years ago at a seminar he gave. A close long-time friend of mine, one of the few left, is a research epidemiologist and has worked with Courchesne’s wife and knows him. I bookmarked his YouTube presentation and will watch it.

The fact that someone would consider ending research on genetics or any other possible contributing factor to ASD, despite evidence already accumulated is just typical of those who see the world in extremes of black and white. Even if they believe vaccines cause ASD, which they do, how do they explain that the same vaccine given to lots of kids only affects some. Perhaps, a genetic predisposition? Of course, the data so far says not “predisposition” but causative; all the same, following antivaxxers, antiglobal warmers, etc. they all display the same rigid ideology.

By the way, Age of Autism has now not posted almost 10 of my comments; but allowed others to attack me. Golly gee.

Given they keep emphasizing “I believe” perhaps they should rename the site:

The Holy Church of the Age of Autism. Has a ring to it.

What do you think???

@ Joel et al:

Thanks a lot. Instead of actually thinking about what I said about autism; some of you here imply that I’m either a drunk or too slow to know my own child.

If your entire position relies on MY being a simple sot; then your position requires EVERY mother who has EVER said that their child regressed, to be a simple sot. And that’s not a good position at all.

You don’t need 50 studies to know THIS much about brain development in early childhood:

*During infancy, the brain experiences a large amount of growth. There is an explosion of synapse formation between neurons during early brain development. This is called synaptogenesis

This rapid period of synaptogenesis plays a vital role in learning, memory formation, and adaptation early in life. At about 2 to 3 years of age, the number of synapses hits a peak level. But then shortly after this period of synaptic growth, the brain starts to remove synapses that it no longer needs*

https://www.healthline.com/health/synaptic-pruning#an-indepth-look

In autism, the microglia … the immune-cells in the brain … stop removing the unneeded synapses & the new synapses keep developing over the old ones. This is so well known … By the age of 5; an autistic child’s brain will be 10% larger in volume than a neurotypical child’s brain; due to the unpruned synapses.

Please explain to me how my child was born not only already having GROWN the learning-based synapses for sight, sound, touch & social awareness; but how his microglia cells were knocked out by an atypical immune-trigger that STOPPED PRUNING them too … Resulting in difficulties processing the visual, auditory & tactile stimuli, as well as social stimuli such as conversations or crowds? All BEFORE he was even born?

@ Christine Kincaid

You really must be a simple sod since you failed completely to understand what I wrote. Whether your child regressed or not, whether children of others regressed or not, your claim that the vast majority of autistic kids regressed contradicts numerous studies. I actually have more than I posted.

In addition, despite what you choose to believe, overwhelming evidence based on decades of research, not on just autism but many things, has found that individuals have selective perception, selective memory, selective distorted time recall, not always; but often. So, whether you are correct about your child or not, the evidence is that the stats based on parents is inaccurate; but even so, the studies based on parent perceptions still gave regressed autism as less than 40%, not your vast majority. So, you said it and I have to agree, you are a simple sod.

And as I mentioned in a brief post, I have collected well over 50 papers and just skimmed them found that, yep, pruning continues after birth; but basic brain structure is already “malformed” and the genes responsible for pruning are mutated, e.g., genes for interleukins which are not genes; but chemical messengers. It will take me some time to carefully, something you apparently are incapable of, readi through all the papers. Probably too late to post here or maybe require a much longer paper. We’ll see.

You just keep on that your experience, your hysterical grossly exaggerated beliefs, should be accepted. Maybe when hell freezes over.

Here’s a vital life lesson that you apparently never learned, Christine. You are not the center of the universe. Not everything is about you. The overlap of FASDs and autism, both pervasive developmental disorders, is of interest to me, because a close family friend with FAE was, as a child, labeled autistic until her parents were able to obtain medical records that confirmed her birth mother drank during the pregnancy.

@ Terrie:

Some of it is rather subtle internal facial proportions – width between eyes. length of nose to whole. size of upper face or something else. There are a few images that superimpose lines that illustrate these differences. I’ll see if I can find anything.

Isn’t it odd that anti-vaxxers never mention research like this or that of Courchesne?

For a start: CBS News Children with autism have distinct facial features March 2012 Researcher Aldridge
Or merely google/ bing Autism facial features for specifics

Denice, looks like there is some overlap with known facial features of FAS, such as orbital hyperthelorism, flattening of the nose and variations in the philtrum, though they don’t rise to the level of FAS. I don’t think every case of autism is really an undiagnosed FASD, but to me, it highlights that we’re not talking about a single cause or disorder when we talk about “autism,” which is a major factor in making it difficult to understand. Even some of the studies Christine dragged out to “prove” her hypothesis, when I read them, simply noted that immune abnormalities were found in a subset of children diagnosed with autism, and could be used to help identify subtypes.

@ Denice,

Step off. You are confusing the dysmorphic facial features found in certain genetic disorders that occur concurrent with ‘autistic-like’ behaviors; with Regressive Autism.

Like Fragile-X or Angelman syndrome.

For Orac’s minions ( Christine is unreachable)

see Spectrum News 20 October 2011; 8 Dec 2014 also J Aut & Dev Dis, 29 Oct 2014 for the work of Drs Kristina Aldridge and Judith Miles 3D imaging techniques for analysing facial characteristics of AUTISTIC boys… not autistic like.
Other studies differentiate features of autism vs Asperger’s check google/ bing
it’s as easy to find as Courchesne

-btw-
There are loads more studies about related topics. U of W AUS: girls with autism have more “masculine” faces. The aforementioned US researchers have produced additional physiognomic studies. Courchesne has been working for 30 years. None of this is new news. YET anti-vaxxers are unable to process what these studies mean:
— autism is genetic ( heredity and de novo), influenced by prenatal/ perinatal events and
— has early indicators ( e.g. gaze, other interaction) which will enable earlier interventions
Unvaccinated kids can be autistic. No studies link vaccines to autism

Some people refuse to learn.

Totally unrelated: I implore ya’ll scientists to get the pitchforks out.

I come from a southern baptist background and they believe that they are “holding up the arms of an imperfect vessle” when they are, in fact, shielding a lunatic authoritarian. Someone here once admosished me that “we are picking a president, not a soccer player” when I’d point out Clintons’ eyeware shortfalls. While I’d never aquiesce to an acceptance of ‘Billary’, something must stop trump.

“When the students poured into Tiananmen Square, the Chinese government almost blew it. Then they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength,” Trump replied. “That shows you the power of strength. Our country is right now perceived as weak…as being spit on by the rest of the world.”

https://www.playboy.com/read/playboy-interview-donald-trump-1990

@ Denice and others

I usually avoid submitting comments to Age of Autism because they either, in the past, have NOT posted them or posted a few, then numerous of their followers ganged up on me and they refused to post my defense. In any case, I posted one comment, then another. and so far they posted all of mine and even another pro-vacciner.

You might find the exchange amusing. Read from bottom up for chronological order. You can find it at:

https://www.ageofautism.com/2019/12/robert-kennedy-applogizes-to-peter-hotez-hookworm-lyin-and-stinker.html

John Stone, one of their “Editors” did finally chime in. He is the one who didn’t post my comments years ago and who I’ve exchanged comments with on other blogs, including BMJs Rapid Responses where he basically ignored what I wrote and just kept on. He is an incredible example of the dishonesty, illogic, unscientific approach of many of them. He also has sent letters, papers, etc. to WHO, British parliamentary commissions, etc. On occasion he has received a polite recognition of his submitted document. He then tells about it on Age of Autism and all applaud him, thinking whoever he submitted to actually took his position seriously. Real Delusions of Grandeur.

Now for a break from the reality of antivaxxers unreality. I discovered a series on Netflix called Merlin. Delightful. Dragons, wizards, mythological creatures, clever plots. The type of fantasy, unreality world, that can be enjoyed, that doesn’t attempt to harm public health, just entertain. A welcome break.

Excellent!
Oh and Jake may be starting to submit letters a la Stone.. OY.
I am watching HBO’s His Dark Materials and it’s not bad.

Joel,

I had the same experience with altmed websites.

I would post detailed, respectful replies to blog posts explaining where they went wrong and why they were wrong. The regular posters would then immediately dump on me. They would allow me to reply perhaps once or twice and then I would be banned and unable to reply further, giving the appearance that I had no response to their silly, easily refutable follow-up arguments. I don’t bother any more. These days I only bother responding when they come onto science based medical sites where banning and censorship is rare.

Interestingly, it’s not only altmed blogs. I was banned from Jerry Coyne’s blog, whyevolutionistrue, for disagreeing with his strategy of deleting comments he didn’t like, banning the person who posted them, and then putting their comment up in a separate blog post for everyone to criticise. I also got close at Pharyngula but, by this time, was wise enough not to say anything that would give PZ Myers an excuse to ban me. The commenters on his site are beyond the pale, but he doesn’t care as long as they support his agenda.

I admire your depth of knowledge, patience, and persistence. But I couldn’t bare it. There you are giving detailed comprehensive responses only to have some idiot come on and wipe you off with: “Joel You believe whatever data you want and then you give yourself as an example of a reasonable person”. The irony and the idiocy burns. I can’t stand these intellectually and scientifically challenged idiots! And I’m afraid I can’t be bothered showing them any respect. They don’t damn well deserve it.

If they’re going to pontificate publicly on a subject, then they first have a responsibility to educate themselves on the subject. If they don’t then, in my opinion, they’re fair game.

I don’t post on Age of Autism in any hope that it will have the least influence; but to see if they even will post my comments, i.e., protecting their echo chamber and to collect their attacks on me, evidence of just how unscientific, illogical, resorting to ad hominem attacks, and paranoid conspiracy theories. It looks like they won’t be posting any more of my comments. I may be wrong; but they were submitted around 5 pm yesterday.

It is frustrating, but given studies have found that 70 – 80% of Americans lack understanding of the basics of science and critical thinking/logic, together with an often counterproductive need for certainty in a complex world, that is, seeing things in black and white extremes, antivaccinationists actually represent a much wider problem. I’m not a climatologist but have read just about every article in Scientific American going back more than 30 years, several books, and watched a number of documentaries. Probably the best was “Years of Living Dangerously.” I believe it can be watched on YouTube. And the same for our politics. For democracy to work it requires the informed consent of the governed with some protections against tyranny of the majority. Informed consent involves both researching a topic and having the skills, critical thinking, to evaluate it. In addition, it requires a modicum of “Know Thyself” so one is, at least aware, of some prejudices/biases that developed unconsciously/irrationally.

What I like about blogs such as this one, is once in a while I discover I was wrong about something, maybe not completely, but partly and also often, even, for instance, antivaxxers, list documents/articles, including URLs, that I save in different folders and, of course, read. And I learn new things. I asked ORAC if he ever slept, given he is a cancer surgeon, supervises interns and residents, does research, and still finds time to search the web for articles, then writing often excellent responses. If he is viewing this, again, DO YOU EVER SLEEP??? LOL

@ Joel,

(sigh). Please cite the specific ‘malformation’ noted at birth in children with autism. Surely this is detectable prenatally by ultrasound & likely by the 2nd trimester?

Or if you mean the mutated genes are the ‘malformation’; we can determine by amniocentesis?

The ‘autistic fetus’ position is kind of creepy given that it could encourage abortion (except there is no such thing as an autistic fetus).

So, I am a non-responder to the MMR & I have the missense variant on SLAMF1, as discussed in this G. Poland paper:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831634/

And I have the missense variant associated with adverse reactions to the MMR, on IL4R, also mentioned in that paper.

Unfortunately I received four MMRs in 6 months in an attempt to bring my titre up to par for my parents to be allowed to bring me into the US from Japan.

My parents state that they started to notice some peculiarities in my behavior within a few months after that fiasco & then my chronic strep infections started. That lasted for a decade. And the subsequent adenoidectomy.

I am autistic. Is it not rational to wonder if a two-year old who is susceptible to SAE’s from the MMR … would have neurological issues from having received four times the recommended MMR dose for a two-year old?

I did notice that some of these variants are found in a higher frequency in Pacific Islander populations. Is it not rational to at least wonder if the MMR has been causing a higher rate of SAEs in Samoa?

Could this not lead to hesitancy & the decreased uptake of the MMR?

And no, I’m not in West Virginia. I’m in Colorado & I’m incredibly easy to find.

@ Denice,

You really enjoy trying to blame mothers for their child’s disability. Weirdo. I personally equate a mother abusing alcohol during pregnancy with child abuse. I only know a few other moms of autistic children but none of them are drinkers & neither am I.

@ brian,

yeah so I reached out to a Cryptozoologist who turned up in my search results when I was trying to figure out what I had startled off my roof the year prior, here in Colorado. I have since found many reports of this thing dating back to Texas & Illinois in the 1970s & most recently; in Alaska. Including a pilot who had it flying along side of him. Several from here in Colorado at around the same time.

IDC what you think about it; it is not an indication of anything except that there is an extremely large bird whose wings actually did sound like thunder, in that the air from it’s wigs was almost percussive.

Ironically; conspiracy theorists hate me because after cross-reference ‘the mysterious cattle mutilations’ against the sightings reports; it appears to offer natural bird predation as the hypothesis versus their standard alien/ET theory.

Have fun with all that. Don’t care.

I have made it clear umpteen times that vaccines do cause rare serious problems. So, I’m truly sorry if you are one of the rare sufferers. However, the benefits of vaccines exponentially outweigh the risks. If we had inexpensive, reliable, valid lab tests to find those with a genetic predisposition, it would be great. However, if more and more parents do not vaccinate, err on the side of caution then herd immunity will be lost and far more will suffer. In addition, if one has a genetic predisposition, the possibility is real that if exposed to the natural full potency microbe the result would have been the same. How would you feel if you had the exact same condition following a natural infection because your parents didn’t get you vaccinated?

You write: “Surely this is detectable prenatally by ultrasound & likely by the 2nd trimester?
Or if you mean the mutated genes are the ‘malformation’; we can determine by amniocentesis?”

First, you are tiresome as I already wrote that brain autopsies and MRI have been conducted, etc. No, ultrasound does not have the resolution for finding small brain changes. As for amniocentesis, maybe; but they have to be looking for them and have the lab set up for detecting. Maybe in the future.

While I have already read several articles by Manuel Casanova, Professor of Neurology, I just ordered his book which is fairly recent and, hopefully, summarizes with good references everything we currently know about the biology of autism.

Emily and Manuel Casanova (2018). Defining Autism. Jessica Kingsley Publishers

Your often over-the-top comments indicated that you think the world revolves around you. Again I’m sorry if you suffered a rare vaccine-related serious adverse reaction; but if you have any level of intelligence and sense of community, you have to distance yourself from such a narrow perspective.

Buy the book. Read it. Then submit a comment, actually a review of the book. Until then, stop wasting everyone’s time

Christine can’t read:

facial defects associated with maternal alcohol use are not the same as the subtle differences associated with autism which are discerned through sophisticated 3D analysis used by researchers( Aldridge,Miles- see articles listed above – all is illuminated) although those who study brain development often also note minute differences in subjects’ faces ( not Angelman’s or Fragile X ). Autism been associated with genetics , prenatal infection and use of meds like valproic acid. NOT vaccines.

We should give up on her and let her become a science writer at AoA- maybe they’ll give her a spot since it’s now mostly Kim.

@ Joel:
I think that Alain may personally know Prof Casanova.

IL4R was not mentioned in the paper, though IL4 was. Of course, Poland did not mention autism.
Actually neuroimmune theories of autism tends propose excess amount IL-4. If your IL4 receptor is defective, you will have less IL4 in your cells, though it would explain your no responder status.
Your genes are not your fault, neither are your infections. As you said, drinking during pregnancy is very different thing.

I’m just throwing that out as an example. Trump is absolute poison… William barr (unitary executive theroy); Jeff Sessions (well, because Jeff fucking Sessions advocating for the execution of pot smokers)… lots of reasons.

I hated Hitlary Clinton, but now I hate drumph worse.

@ Tim

I voted for Hilary Clinton, holding my nose, only because she was the lesser of the two evils. Trump is a malignant narcissist with the emotions of an adolescent and the attention span of 140 characters on Twitter. What the 30% who support him don’t understand or refuse to is that his policies are directly hurting them. For instance, rural rednecks hate Medicaid because, though most recipients poor Whites, something they don’t understand, people of color also are recipients; but more important is that Medicaid is major funder of rural hospitals and clinics. So, they want Trump to undermine Medicaid and other aids to the poor. And by any democratic standard she won the election by three million votes; but what many don’t understand, read the Federalist Papers, etc. our Founding Fathers had contempt for democracy which they considered rule by the mob. The electoral college was created to be chosen by the upper house which in turn was chosen mainly by the landed gentry. So much for Constitutional Original Intent. I also resent that the Democratic Party intentionally sabotaged Bernie during the primaries, so neither party really believes in Democracy. Hilary probably would have won primaries anyway as Bernie is too much to the left for many; but, still, despicable what Democratic Party did.

My undergraduate degree was a duel major, Political Science and Social Psychology. Took two course in Constitutional Law and still, from time to time, read books on various legal topics. As Thomas Jefferson said: “too many books, too little time.” LOL

Joel A. Harrison,

I’m not really familiar with the ‘federalist papers’, however, (and I don’t know who said it, could have been Franklin, — Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what’s for dinner and liberty is one well armed sheep contesting the vote!!!) I’m looking into them.

That being said, I am really scared of what a trump presidency not facing re-election would entail. That petulant ‘adolescent’ has shown that he could be really dangerous. I’m not kidding. But, what can we do?

In the circles I run in, Bernie Sanders is a no-go because he is veiwed as ‘socialist’. This, from my empoyer for whom I collect mail as part of my care-taker duties; He was a former government employee — He gets a social security check.

Idk, there is a lot of friction from the well-off to accept that perhaps stuff like health care should not bankrupt someone. And now we find out that the U.S. trade deal with UK is trying to gut their NHS (and feed them those chlorinated chickens — *think of the poor chlorinated chickens they don’t want)

451 pages — Reddit concludes the leak is from Russia but does not contest the authenticity of the documents:

https://techcrunch.com/2019/12/07/reddit-links-uk-us-trade-talk-leak-to-russian-influence-campaign/

I want nothing! I want nothing! no quid pro quo!

I read; I liked. What would be the mechanism to pass this on to the candidates?? Maybe you have tried .. There is much friction here .. Of course, you like Sanders.. could this plan be passed onto Buttigieg, or mayor Pete Butt Buddie or Whoever??

Maybe you are less of a ‘pleb’ than the rest of us; It is probably still hard to get done — but if there is a way; Give it to Sanders (whom I think doesn’t stand a chance), Give it to Warren, Give it to ‘ Mayor Pete’ (my BFF, election wise).

Be the change we want to see.

You go boy,
Tim

For anyone interested in SB research concerning causes of autism, I have listed a 19 minute video by Eric Courchesne ( 2011); there are several more with an extremely concise one from the PBS News Hour ( 2014) wherein he meticulously explains what he knows in 6 minutes or so. Basically, in the second or third trimester, development changes.
More details about what goes amiss/ is different from average in PFC, “layers”, connections etc
.
There’s a reason his research is never mentioned by anti-vaxxers: like that of Aldridge, it cancels out their main points..This is where research has gone and it tells how to help kids with ASDs.. He’s still working AFAIK.
Take a look, minions.

Measles doesn’t kill. The lesions and overall illness attracts Goblins hunting children. Healthy children can put up a fight; but even with such “mild” diseases as measles, they sometime succeed in stealing their souls.

Or, perhaps in developing nations, parents perceive measles as a sign their kids have been possessed and kill them to save their immortal souls ???

Anyone else who can come up with other explanations????????

Denise and others.

Well, my commenting on Age of Autism is ended for now. John Stone stopped/ended comments; but, of course, not until he and some others got the last word, not allowing me to counter. All in all he only did not post six of my comments. I did collect, add to my collection, a number of papers. Even references given by antivaccinationists sometimes worthwhile, even if they misuse/twist them. One referred to a Swedish TV report about research on vaccines by Counsel on Foreign Relations, only problems: 1. I’m fluent at Swedish; 2. Wasn’t really a Swedish TV station; but some small right-wing group; and 3. I found the actual CFR report and, oops, Swedish TV and some other papers they referred to, well, not what CFR stated. Golly gee, who would have thought?

Denise, always appreciate references you give; but, if possible, could you give a detailed reference with URL, for example:

Rudacille D (2011 Oct). Facial features provide clue to autism severity. Spectrum: Autism Research News. Available at: https://www.spectrumnews.org/news/facial-features-provide-clue-to-autism-severity/

Miles J et al (2014 May). 3D Facial Pattern Analysis for Autism Using Geodesic Distances. Conference Paper: 2014 International Meeting for Autism Research. Available at: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268130979_3D_Facial_Pattern_Analysis_for_Autism_Using_Geodesic_Distances

Note that when I search for Spectrum found other news. It was found using Spectrum Autism. I always prefer complete journal name, not abbreviations.

I found everything, just took a few more minutes

@ Joel:

I sometimes don’t include the URL because I’m in a hurry so I’ll be more complete in the future; I am brief sometimes to vex anti-vaxxers who need to lean how to find things: I know Orac’s minions will always discover the right results. At any rate, it is just a sampling of studies and googling/ binging the
subject matter or the researchers’ names will bring up much more of relevance.

In general, I am trying to present material about the prenatal origins of autism and its early indicators that illustrate that prior to most vaccines. Anti-vaxxers look up topics that they “like” and that “prove” ( to them anyway) their point instead of surveying the entire field as one might do in a SB course. They look to immunology and the microbiome and NEVER mention important research like that of Courchesne, Miles or Aldridge. These researchers are not youngsters: they’ve been working for a long time.

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