If there’s one thing about the antivaccine movement, it’s that, to antivaxxers, vaccines not only do not protect against potentially deadly diseases, but they also cause all sorts of horrible diseases and chronic conditions. I’ve lost track of how many times I’ve seen antivaxxers blame vaccines for sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS), diabetes, autoimmune diseases, asthma, allergies, and the like. They also blame vaccines for conditions like neurodevelopmental disorders, such as autism. Basically, they blame vaccines for everything bad and only grudgingly credit them for anything good. And, yes, they blame vaccines for cancer. In this case, on Sherri Tenpenny‘s antivaccine blog Vaxxter, an antivaccine lawyer named John Jones blames vaccines for acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL). It’s such an amusingly clueless post that it caught my attention, particularly given that Sherri Tenpenny has decided to recycle and regurgitate a whole bunch of misinformation and lies about me and Deepak Chopra decided to do a passive-aggressive “Is this true?” Tweet:
I’m really getting up in the world, aren’t I, to have Deepak Chopra taking a shot at me. Also, Tenpenny must be really annoyed at my deconstruction of her antivax idiocy last week. Anyway, feel free to go over there and make fun of the post, if you’re so inclined.
Who is Mr. Jones? He describes himself as a lawyer with a PhD in political science with “additional areas of expertise and special knowledge including applied statistics, etymology, political communications/public relations, litigation and court procedure” and a “particular interest in the science and history of vaccines.” Ri-ight He also states that he trained himself in Kevin Trudeau’s mega-memory system and views the current system of learning as a scam. Lovely.
In any event, here’s his post over on Sherri Tenpenny’s antivaccine blog Vaxxter. After reading an article quoting Mel Greaves in Science Daily about our lack of understanding of childhood leukemia. He proposed a “two-hit” hypothesis for the pathogenesis of ALL, starting with a predisposing mutation and then exposure to certain childhood infections, but mainly in children who experienced “clean” childhoods in the first year of life, without much interaction with other infants or older children. He even managed to get this hypothesis published in Nature Reviews Cancer, especially given that Greaves also hypothesizes that the risk of ALL can be lowered by changing the child’s microbiome. That sort of speculation from scientists is normally like catnip to antivaxxers, and you can see why antivaxxers would be drawn to Greaves’ research.
Surprisingly, though, Mr. Jones is not a fan. He even had an email exchange with Prof. Greaves, labeling his claims “problematic” and “unfalsifiable.” I actually agree that Prof. Greaves’ claims are a bit out there and would be difficult to falsify or demonstrate, but you can tell by the fact that I’m writing this post that I find Jones’ alternative “explanation” to be far more “problematic” than Prof. Greaves’ hypothesis. You’ll see why in a second.
First, Mr. Jones proudly lets his Dunning-Kruger freak flag fly:
Indeed I am a skeptic. This man claims to have studied ALL for 40 years. He thinks that ALL might be preventable by boosting the gut microbiome? He wants to give safe bacterial species to infants? That is the extent of his discovery after 40 years? And now he plans on giving mice cancer (euphemistically described as a mouse model). What about all his scientific speculations about ALL due to inherited genes, chance, and diet?
Well, no matter. I have neither been knighted nor given public monies to speculate about childhood leukemia for 40 years, but I do know how to read, analyze and interpret data. So I donated my time to review mainstream science claims about ALL, as well as the peer-reviewed literature – even earlier works by Dr. Greaves himself.
Translation: “I don’t have any training, but I’m going to speculate based on cherry picked literature and confusing correlation with causation anyway. Also, I have a huge bug up my butt about people with real expertise, like real scientists, and think my own uninformed opinion is of equal or greater value.”
I’m sure you can guess quite readily what Mr. Jones is going to blame for the increase in ALL incidence over the last few decades. If you can’t, you soon will when Mr. Jones notes that the peak incidence of ALL and AML (acute myeloid leukemia) is between ages 3 and 5. What other condition is most commonly diagnosed around ages 3 and 5? (Regular readers know.) Yes, I’m referring to autism, whose first symptoms are frequently noticed by parents around that age, leading to a diagnosis. You can see where Mr. Jones is going with this. It’s got to be the vaccines! He even writes about graphs he presents showing peak incidences of ALL and AML at around age 3:
This image alone should tell us that vaccines are the cause, or at least associated with, all diagnoses of ALL, but I’m getting ahead of myself.
No. No it doesn’t. First off, the graphs only show a peak incidence at age 3 of ALL, with AML not demonstrating such a peak. Second, it shows that the peak at age 3 is very much attenuated in African-American children compared to Asians and Hispanic and non-Hispanic whites. I’m sorry, but vaccination rates are not that different between black children and children of these other races. Also, if you look at Figure 1 of the same paper, you’ll see that, although ALL incidence has been increasing since 1992, it hasn’t been increasing particularly fast.
Before he can really get to blaming vaccines for ALL, Mr. Jones needs to try to swat down the pesky science demonstrating that ALL. First, he writes:
Around the world, records show that cancer rates are expected to increase as the population ages. Editors at the American National Cancer Institute have declared that “Cancer rates always increase over time. They even offer some data:
• Cancer occurs more frequently in adolescents and young adults (ages 15 to 39 years) than in younger children.
• According to the NCI Surveillance, Epidemiology, and End Results (SEER) program (7), each year in 2011–2015 there were:
- 16 cancer diagnoses per 100,000 children ages 0 to 14 years
- 72 cancer diagnoses per 100,000 adolescents and young adults ages 15 to 39 years
- 953 cancer diagnoses per 100,000 adults aged 40 years or older
Yes, cancer tends to be a disease of aging. However, there are cancers that are far more common in children than in adults, and there always have been. Among these have been the leukemias and lymphomas. However, ALL and AML are also diagnosed in adults, with children between 0-14 years of age only accounting for 22% and 4% of cases, respectively. Yes, adults get ALL, too.
Next up, Mr. Jones scoffs:
So what is ALL, and why would its incidence rates befall the young, contrary to other cancers? Apostolidou et al. (2007) define Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia as “a heterogeneous group of disorders that result from the clonal proliferation and expansion of malignant lymphoid cells in the bone marrow, blood, and other organs.”
Hmm. Maybe a better description, in plain language, would be “too many bad cells.”
And scoffs again:
In their article published in the New England Journal of Medicine, Hunger and Mullighan (2015) insist that the underlying mechanism [of ALL] involves multiple genetic mutations [sic] that results in rapid cell division.
And there it is. The scientists have an explanation. That leukemia comes from bad genes, is a wrong premise, of course, can easily be disproved. But as a rhetorical device, for MDs and Pharma, every gene theory is the gift that keeps on giving (disease), while assuaging their ignorance and their guilt.
Yes, like so many antivaxxers, Mr. Jones ignorantly scoffs at any disease that’s caused primarily by genes. Of course, there is an argument to be had regarding how much of the contribution to any cancer’s pathogenesis is genetic mutation versus epigenetic, versus metabolic, but that’s a high level debate reserved for scientists who actually know the data, clinical and experimental, about cancer and have the understanding of the relevant biology necessary to debate the evidence. Not for Mr. Jones is such high level thinking! Oh, no:
The claim of faulty genes (aka genetic mutation) is just another way to say: ‘it must be your fault, Mom and Dad.’ In 2007, in explaining ALL, one Canadian team actually wrote:…[as] for childhood leukemia … its etiology remains largely unknown. [That] the early incidence [of childhood leukemia peaks] at ages 2–5 years points to disease mechanisms initiated prior to conception or during prenatal development.Notice how these learned men (and women) so glibly declare that the mechanism for ALL is the abnormal production of lymphoblasts, and simultaneously ignore with glee the true catalyst, the vaccines.
Yes, all those pediatric oncologists and cancer researchers are hiding The One True Cause of ALL from you, those evil, toxin-ridden, fetal cell-containing, autism-inducing vaccines! And to prove it, Mr. Jones cherry picks some key quotes from this paper and a fact from a different paper:
- “[Within the United States], incidence rates for childhood ALL in all races/ethnicities combined have increased approximately 1% per year since 1973.”
- “Incidence rates of childhood leukemia in the United States have steadily increased over the last several decades … Surveillance, Epidemiology and End Results (SEER) data [show] trends in the incidence of childhood leukemia diagnosed at age 0–19 years from 1992 to 2013, overall and by age, race/ethnicity, gender, and histologic subtype. Hispanic White children were more likely than non-Hispanic White, non-Hispanic Black or non-Hispanic Asian children to be diagnosed with acute lymphocytic leukemia (ALL) from 2009–2013. From 1992–2013, a significant increase in ALL incidence was observed for Hispanic White children (annual percent change (APC) Hispanic = 1.08, 95% CI: 0.59, 1.58); no significant increase was observed for non-Hispanic White, Black or Asian children.”
- “From 2009 to 2013, 5,443 [American] children were diagnosed with leukemia, including 1,999 Hispanic White children (36.7% of childhood leukemia diagnoses), 2,364 non-Hispanic White children (43.4% of childhood leukemia diagnoses), 416 non-Hispanic Black children (7.6% of childhood leukemia diagnoses), 448 non-Hispanic Asian children (8.2% of childhood leukemia diagnoses), and 216 children of another racial/ethnic category. For all leukemia subtypes combined, the Age-Adjusted Incidence Rate from 2009–2013 was 6.05 per 100,000 persons for Hispanic White children, 4.45 per 100,000 persons for non-Hispanic White children, 4.21 per 100,000 for non-Hispanic Asian children, and 2.62 per 100,000 persons for non-Hispanic Black children.”
- “Shah and Coleman (2007) report that in Europe, for 30 years, from 1970 to 1999, childhood lymphoid leukemia incidence (including acute lymphoblastic leukemia) increased significantly, by an average of 1.4% per year. non-Hispanic Asian children, and 2.62 per 100,000 persons for non-Hispanic Black children.””
Then, to my great amusement:
The first statement stands by itself. If any genetic mutation caused ALL, especially in toddlers and prepubescent children, it would naturally decline over time. Hence, ALL rates would not increase due to said mutation. But to see a 1% increase per year – akin to annual increases in autism – is a direct insult from the environment, via the needle.
Um, no. There’s no basis for Mr. Jones’ assumption that a genetic mutation causing ALL must decline in prevalence over time. He seems to be assuming Darwinian evolution and inherited cancer risk, although maybe I’m giving him too much credit in his thinking, such as it is. I can always point out that the gene mutation for sickle cell anemia remains in populations because, although the homozygous condition is devastating, the heterozygous condition provides a protective advantage against malaria. If there is an inherited gene causing ALL that also provides some sort of other advantage, its incidence won’t decline.
Mr. Jones’ next paragraph led me to chuckle even more:
The second paragraph needs a bit of explanation. The first part alludes to a Hispanic gene as the cause of ALL. The idea is hardly new – but easily debunked (see the work of Dr. Greaves, below). But the use of the term significant increase is a misleading term of art. We know that the rates of ALL in all children in the United States have increased. The word significant here means statistically significant. That is to say, the annual increases could be due to chance, but when summed over 30 years, we see a real effect – more ALL. To declare that the increase was not statistically significant is not the same as saying that cancer rates fell.
Numbers, how do they work? No, that’s not what statistically significant means. That’s not what any of this means! Next up:
The work of Parker et al. (1988), puts to rest the Hispanic-gene thesis implied by Barrington-Trimis and colleagues. In their review, Parker et al. included a comparison of children in three parts of Latin America. When comparing populations in Puerto Rico (for years 1972-82), Costa Rica (1980-83), and the City of São Paolo (1969-1978), the children of Puerto Rico had a far higher incidence of ALL – with a peak a full two years earlier than the other two. Presumably, Puerto Rican children would be on the same aggressive vaccination schedule as American Children.
That publication is over 30 years old and looked at population incidence rates during time periods ranging from the late 1960s to the early 1980s in Puerto Rico, Sao Paolo, and Costa Rica. The US vaccination schedule was far less “aggressive” back then, mainly because several of the vaccines in the schedule now hadn’t been developed yet. Basically, in the late 1970s, the US vaccination schedule consisted of these vaccines: DPT (diptheria-pertussis-tetanus), oral polio, and MMR (measles-mumps-rubella). The expansion of the vaccine schedule that antivaxxers blame for autism didn’t happen until the 1990s. That’s some fine cherry picking Mr. Jones did there! Too bad he doesn’t seem to see it:
Returning to professor Greaves, in 2016, he wrote that the annual incidence rate of ALL was between 10 to 45 cases per million. But Greaves was citing Parker et al. (1988), who looked world-wide, using pre-1980 data. That is to say, in the 1970s, at the national level, ALL rates for various countries in Asia, Latin America, Africa, North America, and Europe, ranged from 1 to 4.5 per 100,000 – far less than what is seen in the U.S. today.
Yes, Mr. Jones both simultaneously cites this paper to “disprove” the “Hispanic gene hypothesis” of ALL while citing it just three paragraphs later to show that pre-1988 ALL incidence was lower than it is today. This deserves some serious facepalm:
No, I think a second facepalm is in order:
Nope, that’s still not enough:
There we go! The Jesus facepalm!
But Mr. Jones isn’t done yet. He next pivots to attack Greaves’ observation that ALL incidence is associated with rising standards of living based on five observations linking higher socioeconomic class with increased incidence of ALL in South Africa, Australia, the Gaza strip, Nigeria, and Uganda. You can guess what he’s going to say about this:
Instead of seeing the improved economic conditions as a surrogate measure for higher vaccination rates, Greaves just thought ALL was and is inevitable.
Because, to antivaxxers, of course it is!
Of course, Greaves’ concept that “common infections” experienced between age zero and one might be protective against ALL is a concept that I rapidly saw as catnip to antivaxxers, and, even though he’s “skeptical” of Greaves’ hypothesis because it doesn’t involve vaccines, Mr. Jones can’t resist circling back around to it:
Given that ALL is a hyperimmune system response, and about only 1 in 2000 American children will get ALL, even though over 90% of all children receive multiple vaccinations, the development of a cancer illness is abnormal.
But what are these so-called common infections?
Common infections could be measles, rubella, mumps, pertussis, Haemophilus influenza b, etc. And recall, these hyperactive, inflammatory responses to vaccines are not just due to the bacterial or viral agent. Vaccines contain a host of other antigens and toxins (e.g., aluminum, glyphosate, formaldehyde, human and animal proteins), each of which generates inflammatory responses in various organs.
By the way, the common infection hypotheses is attributed to none other than Sir Mel Greaves and Dr. Mullighan. I guess that Greaves and Mullighan do think that vaccines cause ALL – they just don’t know it.
No, Greaves and Mullighan were already reaching a bit to come up with their common infection hypothesis for the pathogenesis of ALL, and knew that there was no correlation between vaccines and ALL incidence. Also, if anything, the immune response to a vaccine is not as intense, because there’s just antigen or a weakened virus, not a full-fledged infection, with all its attendant symptoms and harms.
It often seems to me that antivaxxers try to blame basically every non-infectious childhood ailment and condition on vaccines. (Strike that. There’s no “seems” about it.) Basically, any childhood illness will be blamed on vaccines, as will quite a few adult illnesses, no matter how much cherrypicking and how many contortions of logic are necessary to create the semblance of a correlation. Mr. Jones just showed us that. He and Sherri Tenpenny deserve each other.
167 replies on “What causes ALL? An antivaxxer says—surprise!—it’s vaccines”
From Grundvig’s post: “We are quite sure that Gorski, Hotez and Offit will all wait until “hell freezes over” before stepping into the ring with the likes of RFK Jr., James Lyons-Weiler, Sherri Tenpenny or similar colleagues.”
Hahaha. Hahahahahaha. Hahahahahahahaha. He thinks that RFK Jr and company are in some way “colleagues” with you, Dr. Hotez and Dr. Offit. How cute!
I hereby publicly challenge chess grandmaster Bobby Cheng to a chess match, but I set the rules of the game, only my close friends can come and watch, and, if I lose, I will not accept that the game was ever played. Because he and I are colleagues, don’t you know? 😉
Oh, the delusions of some people.
IKR? I’m half tempted to stop by to comment on the post, leaving some of the posts where I write about why it’s a bad idea to debate denialist cranks.
They’ll never publish anything you post, or they’ll selectively edit it, a la AoA.
They use a FB plugin for their comments. They shouldn’t be able to edit, only delete.
I imagine that arguing with an expert in etymology is akin to starting a land war in Asia.
What’s going on? Orac is getting a lot of attention of late from anti-vaxxers/ woo-meisters – even Deepak !
Hilariously, they want a debate without understanding that Orac already responds to their dreck in detail with references and er.. actual. RESEARCH whenever he discusses them.In other words, he answers all of their woo with reality-based material.
Could it be that the brains of the righties are more addled than usual because of the impeachment and the brains of the rest of them are just addled as a matter of course? Or maybe it’s the shortened length of days?
Even Kim Rossi! ( @ KimRossi1111) **
Orac “maligns women” ” is a misogynist”
** she believes that numbers like 11 or 22 signify an angel being in your presence
Correction:
he ” maligns and attacks mothers..”
I want to get the fantasy based insult right
RFK Jr. likes to make the same claim. https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2007/06/21/robert-f-kennedy-jr-has-declared-a-crank-1/
Orac could make a counter-proposal. Debate Tenpenny online, with the moderator empowered to declare the winner and impose a $50,000 penalty on the loser, payable to the Autism Science Foundation.
But not Grundvig. The moderator would have to be knowledgeable about vaccines and competent to judge the performance of the debaters.
Paul Offit M.D. would fit the bill. 🙂
It makes sense to me that antivaxxers are showing a renewed interest in debates. Del Bigtree requested a “discussion” with the CDC when he used a legal loophole to regurgitate antivax disinformation in the form of questions to CDC staff recently. Instead he had to learn the way most scientists get promotions, grants, patents, or licenses: submit written evidence and get ready to respond with compelling answers in writing. As Dorit dispassionately explained (https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/del-bigtree-vaccine-safety-complaints-hhs-responds/) the results were predictably not good for Delbert when he was schooled by Melinda Wharton. Consistent with his character Del tried to hide the response he got last year, though ironically a lawyer litigating against SB277 had enough moral character to “share” the CDC response. Mr Bigtree is big (pun intended) on transparency for others, though clearly not so much for himself.
RFK Jr was (rightly) mocked for his recent misinformation missive to the Prime Minister of Samoa. Yup, even after 70+ deaths due to measles in a woefully under-vaccinated population he’s still insisting he’s fiercely pro-vaccine though his written falsehoods indicate the exact opposite. Also, I’m sure Junior has a good reason for paying himself from his antivaccine charity though I heard a rumor that that particular plan didn’t turn out so well in court for a member of the Executive Branch recently. Just sayin.
Also, it’s self-evident that the retractions of the works by Wakefield, Shaw, Tomljevovic, Hooker, and now DeLong are due to amateurish authorship efforts and egregious confirmation bias. Making a compelling case in writing is not the strong suit for such prominent antivaxxers, so why not play to a strength and aim for oral misinformation instead? By the way Andy, how are all those treatments you developed while at Thoughtful House working out? I’ll keep checking the NEJM or Science for those publications.
Maybe it’s time that the antivax folks move away from flawed, shambolic science-wannabes like Wakefield, Sears, Shaw, poor old William Thompson, and others. Why don’t they recruit legitimate scientists with strong CVs? Why count on financing from the Dwoskins or Selzs, or even RFK Jr himself? Why don’t they have the antivax equivalent of folks like Paul Offit or Peter Hotez (or even Greg Poland if he can continue to survive Minnesota winters), and attract funding from the likes of Gates and Buffett? Oh, yeah, I forgot. It’s easier to just make stuff up (and for the prominent, you’ll make much more money than a pediatrician)…
Asteroids contain vaccines. Prove me wrong. Every time a big asteroid hits the Earth, entire species get autism and die. The fossil record proves this. What do you mean, you want evidence? Its not my fault that you haven’t researched this as much as I have. Why turn up to this debate without adequate preparation?
Antivaxxers play to their strengths. Science needs to play to it’s. I’m sure Sun Tzu will have said something similar.
@Moose: Indeed. Written debates are for scientists. Oral arguments are for politicians and shysters (but I repeat myself).
To steal a tactic from JFK Sr, always ignore the second deal and agree to the first instead.
arguing with an expert in etymology is akin to starting a land war in Asia
Mainstream linguistic etymology? Or Alt-Etymology where any word of interest in any language can traced back to Old Atlantean?
ALL is ~20x as common in children with Down Syndrome. Seems pretty genetic to me. Or should we look at vaccines as causing Down Syndrome, because calling it genetic is blaming mom and dad?
My friend, who studied Special Ed and Speech Correction, had to learn a very long list of conditions that occur with DS.
Over 200, IIRC.
“Presumably, Puerto Rican children would be on the same aggressive vaccination schedule as American Children.”
Sure, attribute a quantified effect to a cause merely guessed at. Presumably Jones is a putz. A peer would punt such preposterous puke from publication, post-haste.
He has remarkably poor skill with language in spite of his grandiose claims.
“Presumably Jones is a putz.”
Read his bio that Orac linked to and you’ll want to drop the first word of that sentence.
Oh that bio!
Hilarious! I notice a few things where he resembles woo-meisters:
— He’s DR Jones PhD! So nice, he says it twice.
— he is highly critical of the educational system – it’s all RONG
— he ‘splains his loss of jobs because he’s ahead of the common herd
You don’t need a degree in a relevant area to ascertain that his writing skills are abysmal
I love that he claims he sees students who “cannot write simple paragraphs much less coherent essays”. If he taught them, I’m not surprised.
His disdain for elementary school teachers is really just awful.
Presumably, Puerto Rican children would be on the same aggressive vaccination schedule as American Children.</>
Puerto Rico is no longer part of the USA?
re feminism
If you believe that women are equal to men, why would you allow or excuse groups of women exhibiting such mindless parroting of pseudoscience nonsense or encourage them to “do their research” when there is already relevant SB research?
It seems like enablement to me. Is someone a misogynist if they say, “That’s BS” when it is BS.
So I donated my time to review mainstream science claims about ALL, as well as the peer-reviewed literature
Nice tone of grievance there. “I deserve to be paid for my valuable time but the world does not recognise my importance”.
he trained himself in Kevin Trudeau’s mega-memory system
He trained himself in the methods of a convicted serial fraudster. But we could have guessed that anyway.
Jones: “Editors at the American National Cancer Institute have declared that “Cancer rates always increase over time.”
Beyond the fact that I’ve never heard of “editors” at the NCI saying any such thing, cancer rates have been doing the opposite in recent years. Cancer death rates have been dropping, while cancer incidence rates have been declining in men and stable in women.
http://nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/annual-report-nation-overall-cancer-mortality-continues-decline
A lawyer should know that making elementary mistakes doesn’t help in proving one’s case.
In the VAXXTER article it is written “Gorski simply doesn’t like human beings, especially those who think for themselves.”
MJD says,
Let’s put that to the test as it relates to vaccine safety.
@ Orac,
Name one “vaccine safety advocate” that you like.
Pretty sure the answer’s “FDA”, you putz.
has (not) writes,
Pretty sure…
MJD says,
The FDA’s “Vaccine Adverse Events” website uses an image of a pill bottle with a yellow warning label “may cause dizziness,” highlighted with spectacles.
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/report-problem-center-biologics-evaluation-research/vaccine-adverse-events
Q. Did the FDA make a mistake in that pills are not considered a vaccine.
@ Orac,
Name one “vaccine safety advocate” (i.e., individual) that you like.
@ MJD
FDA, CDC, WHO. Requirements for approval of vaccines much much more stringent than any other pharmaceutical, including testing of lots, visits to production facilities, size of study population, etc. And post-marketing surveillance also far better, VAERS (only 1% of minor adverse events; but much higher for serious ones. However, teams monitor VAERS and if only very few serious events reported, investigation begins), Vaccine-Safety Data Link (real time link to over 2 million medical records, every vaccine, lot number, date given, comorbidities, age, gender, etc), and other Safety Projects. Finally, mandate to stop any vaccine immediately, e.g., after only a few reports of intussusception from first rotavirus vaccine, stop orders, whereas, for other drugs, medical devices, and even food, voluntary recall requested and, sometimes, after years finally forced off market. And I disagree with taking vaccine off market. Far more cases of intussusception caused by wild-type rotavirus, between 30 and 50 deaths per year, and 50,000 hospitalizations. So, to prevent a few cases of intussusception linked to vaccine, until new vaccine came on market six years later, 300,000 hospitalizations, many more cases of intussusception, and between 180 and 300 deaths. And, in almost all cases, intussusception can be dealt with by surgery, very very few deaths.
And WHO, Swedish health authority, etc. have similar. WHO collects reports from many individual nations on vaccine safety. As for antivaccinationists accusing ALL of being pharma shills, this means that thousands of researchers, PhDs, MDs, and public health experts from many different nations with different histories, cultures, educational systems, economic systems, political systems, and health care systems, all of them are willing to sacrifice their nations in children for Big Pharma, and many who I personally have known vaccinate themselves and their children. Wow, even willing to sacrifice their own children for Big Pharma.
Personally, I think the above is a psychological projection where antivaccinationists who, either consciously, subconsciously or unconsciously, would sell their souls for a few pieces of silver, project this onto others.
@Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH: “FDA, CDC, WHO.”
Three for the price of one, and MJD’s ass in a sling. You’re much too good to us.
MJD, of course, continues to insist on getting an individual name. Because anti-vaxxers never can count past ONE. (Plus, I’m sure, individuals are easier to target too.)
When Orac (The One) writes about cherry picking data, he has an image of someone picking cherries. Surprisingly, the FDA shows a bottle of pills when they write about vaccine adverse events. Hmm, in my opinion, “The One” needs to lesson the FDA on logic and consistency.
I could paraphrase Will Rogers and say “I’ve never met a “vaccine safety advocate” I didn’t like.”
Mind you, I’ve never actually met a “vaccine safety advocate”. I make a point of avoiding them.
Orac: “Who is Mr. Jones? He describes himself as a lawyer with a PhD in political science … ”
Mr. Jones may have a JD, but he can’t be found in the Texas State Bar records; and his bio doesn’t mention where he acquired that JD – maybe from the same place Kent Hovind got his PhD.
But his article itself describes his JD as being from U Iowa, same as his PhD.
So not a Kent Hovind doctorate. But not admitted, or apparently ever admitted, in Iowa either.
Iowa’s a pretty good law school, as I understand, but the city is kind of bonkers, and not just because of all the undergrads congregating evening after evening.
It seems to have an awful lot of fires. That Capitol Dome was nice.
That is the extent of [Prof. Greaves’] discovery after 40 years?
Inquiring minds are wondering what accomplishments in Mr Jones’ career gave him the position to sneer at someone else’s.
What an asshole.
Yes, I never understand this. Saying it’s genes is parents’ fault but saying it’s vaccines isn’t? Neither part seems right.
@ Dorit:
” .. but saying it’s vaccines isn’t?”
I’ve thought and thought about something Brian Deer said: (paraphrase) :
that when AJW blamed vaccines, parents who buy into his theory also indict themselves because they are the ones who brought the child to the doctor for jabs and are therefore complicit in that “crime”, leading to guilt.
If this is so, perhaps that’s why we read anti-vaxxers jump through hoops trying to prove how doctors, pharma and governmental agencies lie, trick and entice innocent parents into enabling this “crime” thus showing themselves to be victims of professional, corporate and governmental malfeasance.
@ Denice, Dorit Reiss
” .. but saying it’s vaccines isn’t?”
We did have a few visitors over the past decades who blamed themselves for giving their child the autismz by bringing their child to their pediatric doctor for vaccination.
One of our more recent insult-lobbers has overtone of this. “If she had known…”
Although they quickly start shifting the blame onto the evil doctors. Because surely THEY must have known.
It’s a desperate need for control over their life. You cannot control what genes you got, but you can control what medical procedures you, or your children, get. If it’s your genetics, it was game over even before you started. But if it’s some specific procedure, then they can control it. And maybe themselves, or by proxy with relatives or friends, will get a second chance at having a “normal” child.
Add some narcissism, or more charitably, wounded ego, into the mix. Saying “it’s genetic” implies that you are some freak, that your genes are not “normal”. It’s you own damn fault if you are not perfect.
I feel there could also be some genuine sentiments of betrayal – authority figures, like nurses and physicians, failed to protect them and their child. This implies that there were once some high expectations invested into these authorities figures. It’s flattering, but high expectations are difficult to sustain and easily shattered. This reliance on/worship of authorities figures may also explain how easily surrogate-father figures like Wakefield or RFK jr could dominate the antivaxer discourse, despite all the contradictions/inconsistencies in said discourse.
Anyway, for those once-trusted authorities to now say “it’s genetic” is seen as them trying to escape blame, to shift it fully onto the parents. “It’s no our fault, it’s yours”. So yes, saying “it’s genetic” is blaming solely the parents, whereas saying “it’s the vaccine” is a narrative which has the advantage of enforcing a shared guilt between the parents and the healthcare workers. With the possibility to push the blame solely onto the nurses/physicians, since “they should have known”.
tl;dr: yes, saying “it’s genetic” is seen as putting the blame on the parents, while saying “it’s the vaccine” is putting the blame on the physicians.
Which is a stupid, black&white dichotomy.
Maybe he really believes that all mutations are inherited. Maybe he only pretends to believe it for rhetorical effect. I do not much care.
Pathologist (well, actually just a resident, not yet board-certified) here.
Funny how here in the Philippines, despite our dismal vaccine coverage due to the Dengue vaccine controversy, I still get to see many cases of ALL over and over again. You’d think that if vaccines caused ALL, the sudden decrease in coverage would also lower the incidence. Interesting crank theory I’ve never encountered before.
Well, when you have a preconceived end-point, its easy to backtrack & use whatever information you want to get there….even if it has to rely on global conspiracies.
Yep, best way to read a murder mystery is read the last chapter first, especially if there are multiple suspects. LOL
However, for antivaxxers, once they decided who the culprit is, they don’t bother reading the book, which would eventually discover someone else to be the culprit.
A. Mom of young children inquires: there are very few vaccines after 18 months, if you follow the schedule. There’s annual influenza, but the rates of influenza vaccines in children are very low even in the U.S.. Does he explain the timing?
B. The vaccines schedule for young children hasn’t changed dramatically since 2006, and less since influenza was broadly recommended. If ALL still increases, what’s his explanation?
I know that’s taking him too seriously.
But aside from the problems you point to, if he thinks genetic is blaming mom and dad, what does he think he’s doing when he blames vaccines? That’s not blaming the parents who vaccinated?
ALL is linked to a Herpes Virus CMV and that requires cell mediated immunity and T cell function which is coincidently depressed after a measles infection and the measles vaccine. The relationship between depressed cell mediated immunity and cancer is clear. Disturbances of the immune system frequently accompany the development of lymphomas in man. In the early stages of non-Hodgkin’s lymphomas, abnormalities of immunological function are usually minimal, but impairment of both antibody- and cell-mediated immunity is often noted in advanced disease.
Here since it is clear that the measles virus and thus the vaccine attack and disable the normal function of the Thymus which is the T cell origin it is reasonable to deduce that any virus iatrogenic or wild type that interferes with T cell production and function may be the actual and or proximate cause to T cell dysfunction and give rise to subsequent pathological processes like ALL etc.
What is most interesting is the fact that no academic body that we know of is recommending supplementation of the diet with Vitamin A which kills the Measles virus and effectively disables its ability to appreciably affect the immune system. This of course would be true for patients taking the vaccine as well. We will be starting a Vitamin A program in our city and doing a double blind study to determine its efficacy and look at the long term implications of this treatment modality on the incidence of autism and other autoimmune diseases.
The Latin or Hispanic gene pool may simply be more vulnerable to the vaccination process and the effects of the MMR vaccines then say a Nordic population, Vitamin A would also appreciably help that population as well.
Measles infection certainly causes immune amnesia, as many studies show, but MMR doesn’t.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/31672891/
I don’t know if measles infection is connected to ALL, but your theory doesn’t support a link of MMR to it.
Nor does it address my points. In fact, since MMR goes back to the 1970s, even if there was a basis for your claim – and as said above, there isn’t – it wouldn’t fit the timeline.
What is most interesting is the fact that no academic body that we know of is recommending supplementation of the diet with Vitamin A which kills the Measles virus
Possibly the reason no academic body is recommending Vit A supplementation is because it doesn’t kill the Measles virus.
Vitamin A does nothing to the measles virus. Supplementing with Vitamin A will not reduce the risk of infection, nor help clear the virus. What Vitamin A will do is reduce the is reduce the more severe impacts of measles infection in children with low serum retinol, provided it is given in high doses early in the infection. WHO does recommend Vitamin A supplements for children infected with measles.
Measles vaccination on the other hand, greatly reduces the risk of infection, meaning there is no need to deal with the sever impacts of measles infection.
I monitor Age of Autism and, of course, saw Grundvig’s post. I submitted a comment, which, of course, they didn’t post. Below is my submitted comment and second comment I didn’t bother to submit. I should mention that Age of Autism did post some of my comments to a different article; but not six of them and then allowed several people to attack me and what I wrote, closing comments so I couldn’t reply. Though Orac has blocked a few antivaxxers over the years because of their vulgar attacks, this blog and its sister blog, Science-Based Medicine allow for a fairly raucous debate with tons of comments by antivaxxers whereas Age of Autism functions as an echo chamber, once in a blue moon allowing the opposition; but then ganging up on them and not posting many of their submitted comments.
As for Grundvig, if he submitted his post as an essay in a high school class I doubt he would get better than a C or, perhaps, a D just because the spelling was correct. Adolescent, making claims without any examples, etc. Typical. I’ve thought of getting his book if a used copy shows up on Amazon, don’t want royalties to go to him.
Submitted Dec 19 at 7:30 am to Age of Autism
Grundvig writes: “Gorski, you see, spends most of his evenings and weekends hiding behind the online persona of ‘Orac. . . .For years, he hid behind the ‘Orac’ avatar since he didn’t want his cancer career to be impacted by his hate speech.”
Yet, from years ago when I first came across the blog Respectful Insolence, right at the top was “Who is Orac” which one can click on and there is his name, David Gorski. Wow, not a very good way of “hiding.”
From Blog Respectful Insolence
“Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent’s posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski. That Orac has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a very obscure late 1970s/early 1980s British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)
DISCLAIMER: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac’s cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that, although he has distinct political opinions of his own, Orac is nonpartisan. He is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.
Gruntvig writes: “Dr. Gorski also runs another, more moderate website that also attacks “anti-vaxxers,” called Science-Based Medicine. That site, in which he is the self-appointed managing editor.”
First, he was one of the founders of the blog Science-Based Medicine and second, who appoints the editors of Age of Autism? Blogs are private endeavors, sometimes formed by large groups, sometimes by individuals. Age of Autism was founded by Dan Olmsted, the self-appointed managing editor.
Gruntvig writes: “By attacking any professional or parent who dares question vaccine safety and efficacy, Gorski shows an apparently insatiable desire to expand his hate list.”
Yet, Age of Autism and many other blogs and individuals attack anyone who supports vaccines. Whether one agrees with them or not, to use ad hominem arguments, e.g., pharma shill, is a cowardly dishonest way of avoiding directly addressing what they write. Antivaccinationists want to believe that anyone who supports vaccines is dishonest. Thus, researchers from around the world, many different nations with different cultures, histories, political systems, economics systems, educational systems, and health care systems, are part of some vast conspiracy to sell vaccines for the profit of Big Pharma, doing this knowingly that their actions are harming untold numbers of children. Everyone I know has vaccinated their own children, so, they are even willing to sacrifice their own children for Big Pharma. What an incredible paranoid conspiracy theory. Yikes!
Gorski is a member of the Skeptics Society, a group of scientists and others who view science with a skeptical eye. Both Respectful Insolence and Science-Based Medicine, though posting many articles supporting vaccines, also post articles on diet, Complementary and Alternative Medicines (not backed by any valid scientific research), etc. Whether one agrees with them or not, without personally knowing them, to attack them, not even considering that what they write is based on their HONEST interpretation of the science, is unethical.
2nd unsubmitted comment
Grundig writes: “So, let’s make David Gorski, the coward who hides behind the Orac avatar, an open invitation to debate Dr. Sherri Tenpenny in Detroit, Michigan, his home turf, with author with investigative journalist James Grundvig moderating the debate.”
First, Grundig has made his hostility to David Gorski quite clear, so how could he fairly moderate the debate? Second, debates may be highly entertaining; but they aren’t science. Debates allow a few minutes presentation by each side, then short rebuttals, etc. Science is based on papers that are often quite long with extensive reference lists, followed by other articles. The first televised Presidential debate between Richard Nixon and John F. Kennedy resulted in Nixon winning the debate according to surveys of the radio audiences and Kennedy winning according to surveys of the TV audiences. So, appearance, body language played a role. Charisma, delivery, body language, general appearance, all play a role in a debate; but NOT in science. The continuous call for debates from antivaccinationists just shows their contempt for science. Instead, focus on writing good articles, e.g., looking at the methodology of articles, honestly reviewing ALL research studies on a topic, not just cherry-picked studies, etc.
Antivaxxers claim they aren’t given a fair hearing, all they want is a dialogue, that people “listen” to them. Yet, antivaxxers have testified numerous times before Congress, before State legislatures, at other government meetings, e.g., CDC. For instance, SafeMinds “participated in Institute of Medicine’s reports, partnered with the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences (NIEHS) to sponsor a symposium, served on the National Institute of Health’s Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee, participated in the Department of Defense’s congressionally-mandated Autism Spectrum Disorder Research Program”. In addition, they have well-known figures such as Robert Kennedy Jr, movies stars, speaking for them, and millionaires supporting them. They get letters and sometimes longer opinion pieces published in newspapers and magazines and their demonstrations/testimonies in newspaper articles. In addition, they have 100s of websites. I would venture to guess there exist few people in the U.S. who are not aware of them and who could easily find their websites with Google or some other search engine.
When they say they just want to be “listened to” they don’t mean their position heard (see above); but more like a parent saying to a kid: “You didn’t listen to me, so now you are grounded.” In other words, for them being “listened to” means people agree with them. Interesting that despite studies showing 70 – 80% of Americans lack a basic understanding of science and critical thinking; the vast majority of Americans still allow their children to be vaccinated without protest or attempts to get fraudulent doctors letters. I guess just plain common sense works.
Since antivaxxers say often that they “believe” and give the impression that they are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN, have god-like knowledge, and basically condemn those who support vaccines to hell, I repeat what I wrote earlier, they should be considered a church. For instance, Age of Autism should change its name to:
The Church of the Age of Autism or
The Holy Church of the Age of Autism or
The Divine Church of the Age of Autism
Here you go Bboyz n Goilz. A little Truth about Vaccines and such. Don’t drink it all in at once. Could blow ur circuits. *** https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCq6oOuhSx7ESreh6m9LGy6Q
Well, if a “yogi” endorses it, it must be good. How the 9/11 twooferism going for you lately?
Dull Bigstump? How about no?
If it doesn’t have funny cats, anime gifs and humorous shenanigans then I ain’t interested. If you have to capitalise ‘truth’ then it’s actual spelt L, I, E, S.
So who’s this link-spamming gobshite?
YouTube? Way to get yourself laughed out of the room.
A bit newer review of ALL is there:
Stephen P. Hunger, M.D., and Charles G. Mullighan, M.D.
Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia in Children
October 15, 2015
N Engl J Med 2015; 373:1541-1552
DOI: 10.1056/NEJMra1400972
You would notice that problem is usually at chromosome level, and just one mutation accounts most of cases. These are de novo mutations and not inherited.
I have commented here before but any comment that is scientific and averse vaccines is modified presumably by the owner of the blog. It really is disheartening to see such robust opinions shy away from real science and real dialogue.
You appear to have a number of non physicians and attorneys like Dorit giving medical advice which probably is not a good idea. Indeed you have a first amendment speech privilege in this forum but she should probably give a disclaimer.
There seems to be quite a tribe of pseudoscientist and pseudointellectuals commenting and sprinkling in some real science periodically making for a mutual admiration society that shuns any real discussion and discourse. The question then becomes are you just agitating or do you really believe in your posture and trying to educate the public.
Please advise
I don’t recognise your description of this forum – it’s almost as if you have some sort of agenda…
What? How can someone calling themselves “BraveFreedom” possibly be anything more that the most earnestly honest person here?
That is probably a genius level comment for this forum. To respond to your thoughts I have no agenda I want to know, in earnest what is your stated objective. There is science and then there is everything else. Currently I see you and this forum in the latter subset. Savvy?
any comment that is scientific and averse vaccines is modified presumably by the owner of the blog
No, no, Orac is leaving your comments unchanged, but he uses his Thought Influencing Machine to edit your memories and make you think that you typed something different from what appears in the comment thread.
Smut, I assume your parents had something in mind when they named you that or at least you had something in mind when you named yourself that. Probably should change your name to smegma, as in uncircumscribed foreskin debris. At least then you would have something to relate to personally. Further judging the level of your discourse you need a reminder to wash yourself and brush your teeth to remove any left over debris.
When you think of something stimulating to write please enlighten us.
Allow me to introduce you to the pleasures of the Porn Name Formula.
https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=542541
please enlighten us.
Who is “us” here? You and your tapeworm?
I never had any pest that were mine and not family pets, so…
Jason Starling.
SIGH. “Pets”, not “pest”.
Please advise? Alrighty then: I refer you to the reply given in Arkell v. Pressdram.
http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/08/arkell-v-pressdram.html
TBruce I assume that is an attempt at humor. HA HA.
In any case I am reading this blog and determining if there is a genuine attempt to enlighten the public with useful ideas concerning Acute Lymphocytic Leukemia and the possible relationship between it and the Measles virus and there is a relatively informative discussion infra if you can understand it.
The reality is, is that no serious person would discount the relationship between a virus (measles virus) that causes T cell depression and dysfunction that allows the prime cause of the oncologic agent to proliferate, here that being a Herpes type virus CMV to not be the actual or proximate causal agent for the evolution of the normal medullary canal into a pathological one.
Your short story concerning public mischief is probably best left to your 5th grade class but thank you for your offering.
T cell profileration (in case of infectiobis not same thing as leukemia. ALL profileration of lymphoblasts, immature T cells (or B cells). Measles does not cause leukemia. Read the review article I cited.
Prof. Reiss doesn’t give medical advice. What entitles you to?
Dorit Reiss actually does give medical advice and it is of no account that you do not recognize that fact. Just as an attorney should would have to write a disclaimer as to not being your lawyer after giving legal advice she must also disclose that she has no medical training and is not giving out medical advice because as an attorney she is held to a higher standard.
From your comment your name appears oxymoronic
“Brave Freedom” here appears to be a graduate of the Hillary Butler School of Gobbledegook with certification in Dan Steinberg’s arrogant ignorance course. In any event, some chickenshit who’s been here before but having another go with a sockpuppet.
Ah, so another “brave” sadistic child hater who get his kicks off of kids suffering from high fevers, seizures, pneumonia, meningitis, encephalitis, etc along with a chance of permanent disability. One that is so brave he created yet another sockpuppet.
Prof Reiss indeed gives legal advice, and is right, too. Antivaxxers always lose their lawsuits, have you noticed.
“Please advise”
Your pants are on fire. You might want to put that out.
The discourse here is humorous but because you are all so clearly ignorant and out gunned it is like shooting ducks in a barrel.
I mean it you are useful tools but you are broken because you were never quite assembled correctly and are missing the same part- A BRAIN.
They set you out here to blog and put forth their defective ideology but because you truly do not know even basic science, not even one of you, you are the equivalent of a scare crow in a corn field, but instead of being in a corn field you are in a computer field. I have to be the one to come and defecate all over you and I am enjoying myself way too much at your expense because you really are amusing each and everyone but you want it so “you’ll get what you deserve “.
Coming to this blog is like having Christmas every day with broken stupid toys that are alive and do not know that they are broken and stupid. They actually made a movie of sorts with all of you in it for this season and it had your home in it, you remember the island of misfit toys? This is the island (respectful insolence) of misfit pseudointellectual toys.
The other possibility is I would assume that you all tried out for the lead clown role in Joker and predictably failed. That does not diminish your delusional psychosis one bit because that pathological place you inhabit in your distorted and perverted minds is real and you are definitely pathological each and every one of you to different degrees of course.
Nothing a course of Haldol or Thorazine (older cheaper drugs but still effective as you do not merit any other) would not dampen along with a couple of weeks of institutionalized care in an acute psychiatric facility would not at least mitigate.
Science Mom you will need a double dose because and I picture being battle ax obese and your psychosis is a little further along than the others as you actually believe you know some science in some weird sort of way.
You are huddled together with the “ME IDIOT TOO CREW”.
When you relay a cogent thought I will respond to it, I will not hold my breath. LOL
For those of you who are intellectually challenged ( all of you) that means your NUTS and need to be admitted under a 5150. The other questions I would ask of you are do you hear voices telling you that you are smart or that you are a medical doctor?
That last remark was directed at you “Science Mom” and you should probably change that name to Silly Mom or better yet Silly Putty because you are taking your self a wee bit too seriously.
Do you and “Has” or “Has Not” and “Chris” see things suggesting that you have these medical degrees or that you are capable of giving medical advice? We need to know, or at least have some semblance of the depth of your delusions.
Indeed from your comments you are all quite certifiable and I am sure that there are 3 or 4 real Arthur Flecks among you, if not more. How many of you are already on medication? Anyone been physically abused by a trusted family member? The mental abuse manifestations are clear in your tortured interpretations of science and law and the physical abuse sometimes requires a little more coaxing to get out but trust me we will get it all out right here on the blog.
Anytime you want a real discussion we can have one or you can keep giving me this type of material to work with and I will work with it .
Funny things that you have no arguments. Insults are not one.
Eh, I’m going with manic break. Too much embedded.
Uh-huh, suuure you do.
It’s almost like you are describing an anti-vax forum.
“Please advise”
I advise you to present scientifically “robust opinions” instead of lame insults.
That would be a wise course of action if you are actually interested in “real dialogue”.
Dangerous Bacon,
Well as you have made an admission to being swine and I am certain that no pearls preceded you, I will presume you engaging in all of the conduct that swine engage in and are inhered with. Thus appropriately I will take you at your word.
That is I believe that you are pig headed and just rooting around the comments sections like a typical hog in an effort to “scare up” some response.
My question stands. If you can wrap your pig head around it please respond. Can you answer it or do you not have the proper intellectual faculties to do so?
Take your time I’ll wait.
Why do you think a string of insults are a substitute for mature dialogue?
Dorit I am pleased that you joined the discussion but your facts are, predictably, wrong as usual. Measles does not cause amnesia it causes the scarring and permanent dysfunction of the thymus. That the thymus begins to produce T cells does not confer the status as “good as new”. The term Amnesia is used to obfuscate the truth of the virility and permanent injury that occurs in this organ. Further as much of the protection was conferred to the child by his mother breast feeding and the thymus being programed by the immunoglobulins from breast milk once you have destroyed that bank of cells programed by the mother you also permanently lose that information. You are an attorney and thus cannot be trusted to be honest and forthright so I will not give you that benefit. However you are not a physician and so you may be simply ignorant of the pathology even if willful. Dishonesty or stupidity the origin of your error matters not what is important is the Daubert standard of proof, flawed though it be, of peer reviewed and established medical facts. That is clearly met here.
The Measles vaccine absolutely does cause thymus injury and the scientific literature is replete with such articles .
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437709 More importantly the natural history of the measles wild type virus is that it does in fact attack the thymus and that has been in the literature for decades. I realize that you are not a medical person per se and only charade as such however this goes back to the 70’s. As far as vitamin A goes measles can cause blindness and that discerned by an ophthalmologist. Indeed Alfred Sommer, MD, MHS Dean Emeritus and Professor Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. This is a giant of a medical physician and surgeon and no one here will be able to discredit his work. I am not certain how many of these other bloggers can even fathom the information presented here but if the Measles wild type can cause a depression in the T cell function then there will be a depression of any measles variant or strain. I am not addressing your points, reasonably and logically because you do not actually have a point. There are many other factors that are contributing to the increase of the ALL and one of them which is quite plainly true is the increase in the number of children getting vaccinated. I know that you are an attorney but you must be able to at least count.
The schedule, although it has changed contrary to your falsity by adding new vaccines, example Gardasil was not FDA approved until after 2006 and introduced in 2007. It is of course a failure. As there are literally hundreds of strains of HPV and there is no true nexus between the normal vaginal flora (HPV) and cervical cancer and especially not in children who were not even tested for the drug trivalent when clumsily introduced. Some half wit pharma whore in Texas named Perry was going to pimp out the great state until he got shouted down by his 2nd amendment invoking constituents in his home jurisdiction. The vaccine efficacy is 4 years for a disease that is related to the number of sexual partners and does not present until the 4 to 5th decade and even before there was a vaccine only killed 10 % of those who contracted it. Further the paper that was presented in Prague averred that they “thought it may protect against 2 other strains ” to make it 4 strains. Not really a scientific peer reviewed article more like the wishful musings and little moments of a drug dealer getting ready to impose his will on his captive audience.
But I digress. The point here is that Measles contrary to your assertion is most likely a linked pathogen if not the actual and proximate cause of the to the increase ALL based on it’s natural history of virulence and nutritional depletion of vitamin A and the other useless vaccines that are given without rhyme or reason. The association between increased mortality and morbidity and vitamin A deficiency is strongest in children with measles. Vitamin A supplementation reduces mortality and complications resulting from measles. Measles may increase the body’s utilization of vitamin A, possibly because of the rapid destruction of epithelial surfaces. Vitamin A may boost immune responses
With regard to the unintelligent and clearly intellectually challenged and uniquely uninformed musings of the appropriately self deprecating party Smut Clyde. I assume that he has a genuine interest in you, a lover perhaps? As he rushed in butt naked with his terse offering. I tried to speak plainly because I know the site is brimming with the intellectually challenged and filled with mostly “wanna be” types. So I used a familiar and rudimentary vernacular. To be more scientific and clearly further over your prospective paramour’s head, Vitamin A is a necessary substrate for preserving epithelial cell integrity and in addition plays a role in immune modulation. Thus it assist in the immune system ridding itself of the measles virus and protecting the epithelial cell surfaces. The measles virus in the taxonomy of viruses is, like the flu virus, a paramyxovirus (encapsulated).
The Measles virus is a member of the genus Morbillivirus much like the distemper viruses that canines contract. It differs from other paramyxoviruses in lacking neuraminidase and in having hemagglutination activity restricted to monkey and some human red blood cells. The distemper virus causes obesity in canines and we are working on a model to determine if America’s obesity problem has its origin in the MMR. I am sure you have disclosed any conflicts that you may have as your name is ubiquitous on these blogs.
In any case I will leave you to counsel and educate Smut who is clearly in need of some of your home cooking
Bellend: “The Measles vaccine absolutely does cause thymus injury and the scientific literature is replete with such articles. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3437709”
Link: “We describe the potential roles of malnutrition and vitamin A deficiency as risk factors for severe measles in adults from this community.”
God, learn to lie better, cretin. You’re no sport at all.
“learn to lie better”
It doesn’t work that way anymore. The modern technique is to emulate your favorite politician: lie constantly, outrageously and with confidence and everyone (well, maybe most) will believe you no matter the facts. Subtlety confuses the audience.
“God, learn to lie better, cretin. You’re no sport at all.”
I am certain that “Has Not” as in not a clue or a lick of sense is probably a more appropriate name for you. That you have found recent articles or not that do not agree with accepted science is really of no account. Your thinking is Juvenile and you are next in line to be schooled and so I will be patient with your pedantic offering because it amuses me. Your conceit is spawned by your insecurity and feelings of inadequacy in a field where you have no expertise, none. Like a blind man your walking in a mine field oblivious to the academic requirements and so be it. Further Your tone and tenor suggest you were abused probably tied up to the radiator or in the refrigerator. Seek help now.
In the meantime I have included some toilet reading for you as I am certain that anyone so full of himself is constipated all of the time and needs to take a dump
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1553774
The histological changes in the thymus and other lymphoid tissues in cases of severe measles resulting in death during the acute phase or at sometime afterwards (from a presumably unrelated cause) have been surveyed.
Severe changes of aggregation and formation of large syncytia of thymocytes which progressed to cytoplasmic and nuclear destruction were observed early in the disease (at 4 days). These `giant-cells’ failed to show either nuclear or cytoplasmic inclusion bodies. Such cases when seen at a later stage had total loss of thymic cortex. After measles the cortex of the thymus can be absent for at least 2 months.
Other cases of severe systemic disease entering the same hospital also showed loss of thymic cortex from 6 days of illness.
THIS INFORMATION HAS BEEN PRESENT SINCE 1973 TOILETTE GENIUS- yes “HAS NOT” before you were conceived in the back seat of that car during a tryst with one or more parties. The destruction of the thymus is not enumerated over and over in the literature because most of the REAL scientist have read this information in a standardized text book like Robbins and Cotran the Pathological basis of disease and have accepted the presumptions confirmed in the literature for decades. Thus no need to parrot over and over to lay persons like yourself on a blog of idiots.
Primary dissemination and replication is the thymus and bone marrow see the excerpt below
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4997572
DISSEMINATION PATTERNS
Primary (bone marrow and thymus), secondary (spleen, tonsils, lymph nodes) and tertiary (e.g., bronchus-associated lymphoid tissue (BALT)) lymphoid tissues are rich in CD150+ lymphocytes and are major sites of MV replication in vivo [8,25,27,34,35,36,37]. Analysis of lymphoid tissues of experimentally infected NHPs showed prominent MV replication in B-cell follicles [8,25]. Multinucleated giant cells or syncytia, known as Warthin-Finkeldey cells, were especially observed in lymphoid tissues in the upper respiratory tract [25,38,39,40] and consisted of fused B-cells [8,27]. In addition to B-cells, widespread MV infection of both CD4+ and CD8+ CD150+ memory T-cells was observed in these tissues.
MV infection leads to lymphopenia during its acute phase, in which the number of T- and B-cells, both circulating and lymphoid tissue homing, decreases extensively (Figure 2C) [27,78].
Let me know if you do not understand the meaning of the words I have a coloring book you can look at too!!!!!
RS – let me guess REAL STUPID? Well RS by not commenting intelligently on the instant subject you are still counted among these clowns because they did not either even though they think they did LOL. This is quite Fleckian I would say so you better check your green hair and clown makeup because I am certain it is running. Your offering is more of a surrender than anything else because you clearly have nothing to say, Psst don’t feel bad because neither do these other clowns they just do not know it LOL. I accept your surrender and a Merry Christmas to you tiny turd.
It would help if you cite, instead of just making insults. Measles indeed damage T cells, and causing immune amnesia (perhaps you can the problem with the paper dexcribing it). T cell dameage is not samr thing profileration of lymphoblasting leukemia, with the paper you cited not mentioned).
Brave mavericks heeded the call,
Cried “freedom” in a tone most visceral.
..But Reality swoops from above,
..Talons dripping with facts and with love.
Spreading good wishes to one and to all.
Vitamin A supplementation just replaces one nutrient that is depleted by a measles infection. It is not a treatment.
Do tell us where the thymus is mentioned in these two recent papers:
Science. 2019 Nov 1;366(6465):599-606. doi: 10.1126/science.aay6485.
Measles virus infection diminishes preexisting antibodies that offer protection from other pathogens.
and:
Science. 2019 Nov 1;366(6465):599-606. doi: 10.1126/science.aay6485.
Measles virus infection diminishes preexisting antibodies that offer protection from other pathogens.
If you do not have access to the full papers, then check on this blog post about them here:
https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2019/11/05/immune-amnesia-measles/
If that is still not enough, the main investigator was interviewed on a podcast name cryptically as “Immune” on an episode also cryptically titled “Measles erases immune memory”: http://www.microbe.tv/immune/immune-26/
When you are done catching up on more recent science, then please tell us with supporting evidence (that you have actually read and understood) why it would be better to treat measles instead of preventing it by two MMR vaccines. One method would be an economic study like this one:
J Infect Dis. 2004 May 1;189 Suppl 1:S131-45.
An economic analysis of the current universal 2-dose measles-mumps-rubella vaccination program in the United States.
“Vitamin A supplementation just replaces one nutrient that is depleted by a measles infection. It is not a treatment.”
WOW CHRIS YOU ARE NOT JUST STUPID YOU ARE ARROGANT TOO AREN’T YOU. I guess that is your best defense.
So your position is that you know more than the medical doctor who is the Chairman of the school of public health and a professor of Ophthalmology .
Indeed Alfred Sommer, MD, MHS Dean Emeritus ( that means for life Chris) and Professor Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. That work won Sommer recognition as the 1997 winner of the foundation’s Lasker Award for Clinical Medical Research. Sommer is one of five Johns Hopkins researchers who have won a prestigious Lasker Award, which many consider the “American Nobel.”
A director of the Lasker Foundation since 2004, Sommer is best-known internationally for his long-term research and advocacy supporting the widespread use of vitamin A to prevent blindness and child mortality in developing nations.( do not forget we are talking about measles here so focus Chris.)
PROVING THE LINK
To definitively prove the link between even mild VAD and pediatric mortality, Sommer and his colleagues ran a number of large-scale, community-based, randomized trials from 1983 through 1992. Keith West, PhD, professor, International Health and Ophthalmology, Joanne Katz, ScD, professor, International Health, and James Tielch, PhD, professor, International Health, among others still at the School, all played major roles.( Chris you are going to have to tell them that they are all WRONG!!! LOL)
Their work showed that ensuring adequate vitamin A intake can mitigate the effects of common diseases such as MEASLES and diarrhea; reduce child mortality in at-risk populations by 23 to 34 percent to avert up to one million deaths a year; and prevent as many as 400,000 cases of childhood blindness each year.( Chris you are going to have to tell them that they are all WRONG!!! LMFAO)
By 1992 the World Health Organization (WHO), UNICEF, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, and the Convention on the Rights of Children had all declared the control of VAD a global goal.
Chris you will have to write all of these people and tell them that they are wrong. Tell them that you blog HERE and that you are a non medical person,( they will figure that out in short order,) with a clown face and a green wig and that you have read all of the information and you just do not believe it and you want them to retract it like the Wakefield paper and that they should fire Dr. Sommer and take back the award and give it to you because you and RS figured it out!!!!
I am sure they will listen to you and revoke his tenure. Probably should hit that bong/crack pipe before showing up so you can keep the delusion going at least in your mind anyway. Good Luck!!!
I am not the illiterate one, brave sadistic child hater.
I see you also cannot do basic arithmetic. What is a more recent year: 2019 or 1992? It seems your “research” is several decades out of date.
You yourself say “can mitigate effects”. This is of course well known fact, WHO recommends A vitamin. Mitigate effects is notsame thing that cure, much less prevent. Do you actually read your cites ?
Heh. Can’t we (tinw) get a better chew toy for Christmas?
Narad ? That name sounds like a translation for toilette paper do you work in cleaning toilets’? Chew Toy? Narad I’m the biggest dog on this block OK?
You will certainly be remembered for your commensurate stools.
The term Amnesia is used to obfuscate the truth of the virility and permanent injury that occurs in this organ
“Virility”? Do not trust Google Translate.
That was about the best you could do Smut and I understand. It was late and Virulence does matter and there is a reference supra. Thanks for playing.
Amnesia is killing of memory T cells and yes, T cell damage. You do not comment papers Chris cited and ALL paper I did. If you are so much smarter than us dissecting them should be really easy.
Thymus damage not like memory amnesia. You can actually remove an adult thymus without problem (as in myastenia gravis).
Mr(?) Freedom, like yourself, I have no medical or scientific training and therefore no credibility commenting on this forum, and so, having failed science, poetry must serve.
Carl
Me no medical training? Ok keep your delusion going along with your poetry
HPV virus have many strains, not all of them cause cancer. You need vaccination against cancer causing strains.
@BraveFreedom
So, you base your interpretation of how measles works from a letter sent to a journal You write: “Measles does not cause amnesia it causes the scarring and permanent dysfunction of the thymus.” Oh, in case you don’t understand, T-cells mature in the thymus. The thymus has NOTHING to do with B-cells. ,
“Measles virus infects immune cells, causing acute immune suppression. To
identify and quantify long-term effects of measles on the immune system, we used VirScan, an assay
that tracks antibodies to thousands of pathogen epitopes in blood. We studied 77 unvaccinated children
before and 2 months after natural measles virus infection. Measles caused elimination of 11 to 73% of
the antibody repertoire across individuals. Recovery of antibodies was detected after natural reexposure
to pathogens. Notably, these immune system effects were not observed in infants vaccinated against
MMR (measles, mumps, and rubella), but were confirmed in measles-infected macaques. The reduction
in humoral immune memory after measles infection generates potential vulnerability to future infections,
underscoring the need for widespread vaccination.” Mina MJ (2019 Nov 1). Measles virus infection diminishes preexisting antibodies that offer protection from other pathogens. Science; 366: 599-606.
“Using B cell receptor (BCR) sequencing of human peripheral blood lymphocytes before and after MeV infection, we identified two immunological consequences from measles underlying immunosuppression: (i) incomplete reconstitution of the naïve B cell pool leading to immunological immaturity and (ii) compromised immune memory to previously encountered pathogens due to depletion of previously expanded B memory clones.” Petrova (2019 Nov 1). Incomplete genetic reconstitution of B cell pools contributes to prolonged immunosuppression after measles. Science Immunology; 4.
I have more articles.
Do yo think the brave dude would want to catch up with more recent research? What is worse for the brave dude is that study was done in the Netherlands, one country that does not have nutritional deficits even among that particular religious group. Especially since they were perfectly fine being part of those studies.
I noted the same two papers, plus gave him an interview with Dr. Mina on how they worked with that population.
Chris I have already destroyed your previous offering. More recent research?
The studies that I quote are used as a world standard and that is evident by the accolades heaped onto the researchers.
The human anatomy has not changed since creation and the immune system is part of that. Current research is relevant but that does not vitiate the standards that were the foundation of the research.
Vitamin A is an essential fat soluble vitamin for the mitigation of the effects of measles.
I know you are uneducated and so do you so stop pretending that you are or you will end up being mocked and ridiculed for being a charlatan and a wannabe and worse than that you will get what you deserve. Who just said that?
“Chris I have already destroyed your previous offering. More recent research?”
Ha, ha, ha… literally laughing out loud. Not only are you a sadistic child hater who loves to see kids suffer, but you are illiterate!
Seriously, check what mitigation of effects mean. It does not mean cure orprevent
Dr. Joel Harrison I will take my time to dissect you out carefully. I cannot tell you until I have taken you apart doctor if your pathology will be more on the order of a rat dissection, a fetal pig dissection or a frog dissection.
Finally you could turn out to be of an entirely different phylum say for example from the Phylum Arthropoda, (Gromphadorhina portentosa) the slow moving wingless hissing cockroache of Madagascar. The cartoon Madagascar did not figure into that syllogism but it is a nice coincidental touch as you are somewhat cartoonish in your own right a sad delusional clown as it were.
Moreover you are probably used to the kind of roaches that you smoke and inhale (or are you a bong guy?)
Your delusions are particularly interesting but not unique as you are crying out for attention and want to lead the herd to gain some modicum of respect from your herd that you could not achieve in your professional endeavors (the herd does not really like you, respect you or even want you in it because they feel you are obnoxious with your constant and relentless PhD MPH etc.).
Clearly doctor Harrison you failed to self actualize and consider yourself a failure (there is truth to that) and you are truly a special case here because you cling to your PhD and MPH like the Snoopy character Linus clings to that blanket. I suspect you applied to medical school and did not get in or even get an interview because you were just not academically fit or up to snuff having done ok but not well in your college; probably a small college and your MCAT came up short as well. Thus you were measured and found to be wanting and not invited for a face to face as you simply could not and would not qualify. The other real possibility is that you were afraid to try and were too much of a coward to even apply. This is a more troubling scenario as it goes to the primitive parts of your psyche.
Thus this failure you wear like an indelible mask, a clown mask but a mask nonetheless and your parents wanted you to become a doctor so you got a PhD so you could tout the doctor moniker despite the overall emptiness of the achievement academically and monetarily, doctor. (We use the small d in doctor because you are not really a doctor despite your active delusions concerning patient care). Do you claim to actually practice medicine ? If so where ?
I will indulge you doctor in an academic discussion, ignore your intellectual and academic deficiencies shortcomings treat you not as an equal but in a collegial manner and even carry you didactically so that I can peek behind your considerable curtain.
I would suspect, given the gravitas of your discourse that you yourself truly do not know what is behind your curtain either or how really ill you are and thus it will be my pleasure to illuminate that for you to a point. I will not be your doctor but I suspect you do need some therapy so please do not be afraid to get professional help afterward if you have not already sought it out which I suspect that you have.
What is clear doctor is that you like to type the words even if they are inapplicable and meaningless busy work to the instant conversation because that gives you a modicum of comfort and self esteem. In person I imagine that you are most likely verbose and garrulous and like to hear yourself speak. The loudest and longest speaking at the party and especially so after you have thrown back a few (are you an alcoholic too?)
Indeed I will let you go on and on and give you sufficient rope to hang on to; alas I cannot prevent you from hanging yourself as you have clearly already done that here on this blog.
My prayer however is that this friendly conversation does not tip you into that fatal conduct at home during the particularly stressful holiday season. You are searching for your identity doctor at the expense of others and you are clearly trying to mitigate your life failures and thus you more than likely have a propensity for depression and its associated conduct and may even be medicated for that condition even as we text.
To be certain I am not exactly sure what perversion and abomination we will find when we finally get the covers pulled back on you. In the meantime I will sequester more information to feed your pathology and challenge your preprogrammed and paid for interpretations of MMR, and other iatrogenic pathogens given to children with dubious results and in my view abandon heart intentions. ALL is a myelophthistic process and its origin is undoubtedly viral. The only real question is the origin of the viral vector.
I would beseech you to carry on the discourse in good faith and not be deceitful or misleading. I can accept your genuine lack of knowledge, which is glaring- you are completely wrong about B cells and their not being affected by the measles virus and I have included that in another place here toward one of your fellow dilatants , but my palate will reject brazen intellectual dishonesty false bravado and temerity and any misrepresentations.
Indeed you could be subjected to mockery ridicule and echoing laughter from your “herd”. To be sure I bear you no ill will and in fact just the contrary. I actually have a modicum of respect for you wish you nothing but the best encourage you to rise up and paint over the current mask with more paint. The oils here being the oils of education as they have a everlasting effect and image. Everyone has failures and unforeseen misadventures, simply rise up off the mat and avail yourself.
I will now turn my attention to the small people who are jealous and envious of you here on the blog. They do not merit the same consideration as you of course ( which is why I answered your comment first as you are after all a doctor) as they have achieved nothing and truly know nothing, wankers the lot but I will not be rude by not answering them. Indeed I will amuse myself briefly with each of them and then like my huge orange tabby tom cat with a large field mouse I will discard them as refuse because they really have nothing to say that is germane to the topic
What the hell did I just read?
The random ramblings of an illiterate sadistic child hater.
Usually I am a big fan of turgid polemics. It must be the sprinkling of scatological humor that is throwing me off. Unsubscribe.
@Lawrence: “What the hell did I just read?”
You read that thing? You’re braver than I thought.
For some reason I’m reminded of this passage from Asimov’s Foundation series where a politician just gave a big speech and the History scientists came back and said – sorry, this speech contained zero information.
8 long rambling passive-aggressive paragraphs before our visitor address anything of substance from Joel Harrison. And then they fail to address it correctly.
Err, Joel Harrison’s post was about B-cells being affected by the virus.
Did you mean T-cells? It’s OK, they are sometimes hard to tell apart.
a politician just gave a big speech and the History scientists came back and said – sorry, this speech contained zero information.
You’re not thinking of the opening trial scene from Pohl & Kornbluth’s “Gladiator-at-Law”?
Content of your post: I cannot answer and that is why I just rant. Prove that measles offect B cells (give us a citation).
BraveFreedom:
You might get a better response to your drivel if you:
refrained from dumb insults about nyms and weird sexual fantasies about those who reply to your comments
refrained from sneering at commenters’ academic backgrounds while ignoring requests for your own.
read and understood what your references actually say, rather than misinterpreting them as “gotcha” statements.
gave up on the silly pompous writing style that you affect. You’re fooling no one.
Hope that helps. (sarcasm mode off)
gave up on the silly pompous writing style
Writing Kai Lung pastiche is not as easy as it looks.
Smut I have no idea what you are trying to iterate here worse yet I do not think you do either. So Go to bed and sleep it off.
You do have a certain verbose style, full of what is essentially chaff. Fine for story telling but absolutely shite for a factual exposition.
TBruce
just quit you really are uneducated and your writing and thoughts betray that quit trying to be something that you are not and embarrassing yourself.
I will not call you stupid but you are stupid and we both know it.
This is about knowledge not stations.
These are not Gotcha statements they are facts plain and simple.
If you have a question that is reasonable I will entertain it but do not condescend because I have read and forgotten more of this science than you have learned or could fathom.
So please be polite and respectful and I will return that to you otherwise let’s play on!!!!!
Look who’s asking that I be polite and respectful.
Joel: “The thymus has NOTHING to do with B-cells.”
Actually there is a population of thymic B-cells, which have a role in T-cell selection/regulation.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480206/
Of course, this doesn’t change the fact that BraveFreedom is a poop-flinging moron.
@ Dangerous Bacon
Thanks for the info on thymic B-cells, article now added to my collection (I do have a vague memory of having read about them a while back); however, according to the article they may be involved in negative selection of T-cells; but it is the other memory B-cells that numerous articles find are suppressed, etc. following wild-type measles infection, so BraveFreedom is WRONG. Even if the thymus was destroyed, wouldn’t affect memory B-cells.
I’ve noticed that almost ALL of his comments are ad hominem, almost done even attempting to enter into a real dialogue. Maybe he is neighbors with Greg?
Oh, and for EVERYONE, vitamin A is given as intravenous high dose to kids suffering from both measles and malnutrition, probably shouldn’t be given to well-nourished kids as vitamin A, a fat soluble vitamin, can be “toxic” in high doses.
Well that is enough for tonight I will have a glass of water and go to sleep and see what rears it’s ugly head in the morning or later in the week as I am still shopping and working.
I may not be back for a while I enjoyed you all truly I did. All in good fun and NO hard feelings. To each of you I wish a safe and happy holiday. Indeed to each and every one of you and your family. To those of you that do celebrate the Christ, Merry Christmas and be safe
BRAVE FREEDOM
Nice to see that you are a good loser.
Oh, really! I must protest the performance of the help around this establishment. Is it not possible to find a night soil man who at least grasps the concept that his job is to take away, not deliver?
If it is picked up it must be delivered somewhere. It’s a simple case of mistaken address, for both the pickup and delivery locations. It’s difficult to get a night soil apprenticeship these days.
I don’t know who let Hilary Butler near a computer but this is what happens when she does. Hilary Butler has zero education or experience in any discipline related to vaccines. She’s always been a bit prickly about that and compensates with a pompous, vulgar writing style.
Meesh. Where’s a psych hold when you need one?
What generates fear of vaccine:
RoundUp’s active ingredient, Glyphosate is allowed as residues permitted in vaccine production: consider the implications, as listed in the Codex Alimentarius of the United Nations, which governs Pesticide Residues allowed in foods, feeds and animal products. [Link Below]
Some Vaccines are grown within eggs, or in farm animal blood serum, which are legally allowed five parts per million of Glyphosate residue. The primary countries where vaccines are produced, Brazil, India, and the USA, all use Glyphosate, & Roundup. None of the vaccine producers advertise organic material.
Since Glyphosate is an artificial Amino Acid, it can fit into the growing vaccine proteins, mistakenly in place of one of the hundreds of Amino Acids that form each protein.
Please consider a simple solution: Inoculations could be safer, if grown on organic materials!
The existing vaccine mutations are unpredictable, but haunting stories reflect mutated results – fully expected by legal and regulated residues, as listed in the following link:
http://www.fao.org/fao-who-codexalimentarius/codex-texts/dbs/pestres/pesticide-detail/en/?p_id=158
Note the link, updated in 2017 with increased quantities, shows farm animals get allowed RoundUp residues 100X human foods – and animals get no choice nor variety.
Oh, goody, first the antivaxers tell us ingestion is different than injection, and now another is giving us an ingestion scare on a totally unrelated chemical!
Here is an idea, instead of some random assertion about a chemical you do not like just post the PubMed indexed studies by qualified reputable researchers that show any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases. Moms Across America are not qualified nor reputable, and neither is Stephanie Seneff.
Otherwise, you will be added to the list of of sadistic child haters who likes to see kids suffer high fevers, seizures, muscle spasms, encephalitis, etc with a good possibility of permanent injury from actual real diseases.
Must we await a response by Orac to get a reply to the hypothesis?
It is logical that an artificial amino acid can take the place of the nearly identical glycine, the most common amino acid.
Rather than ingestion, I posted concern about mutation . . . which is much more threatening.
Milcarek, pick one and stick with it.
Don’t expect an answer for Orac. Also it is rude to tell him to write about a specific subject.
Mutation of what? And how? Mutations have been happening since life started on this planet, it is not something new. They have noted on the SPARK for Autism genetic research sponsored by the Simons Foundation: https://sparkforautism.org/portal/page/autism-research/
Now where are those PubMed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases? Does the MMR vaccine cause pneumonia in one out of twenty doses? Does the DTaP vaccine cause death in one in thirty five doses? That was the kill rate of actually getting diphtheria in the former Soviet Union states in the 1990s: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640235/pdf/9866730.pdf
Do you really want to be known as a sadistic child hater who likes to see kids suffer from those diseases with high fevers, pneumonia, seizures, unable to breathe, etc?
Oh, and he wrote about Seneff’s idiocy here: https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2014/12/31/oh-no-gmos-are-going-to-make-everyone-autistic/
Do try to keep up, or at least learn to use a search function.
As Chris asks, mutation of what? Do you harbor some bizarre notion that nucleotides are composed of amino acids? Or are you suggesting that introduction of a compound with some semblance to an amino acid will trick synthesis mechanisms into producing more? Got any evidence? (No, I’m not just JAQing off – I’m outright ridiculing your nonsense. Now admittedly the pompous and arrogant Prusiner was also ridiculed and ultimate apparently “proven” right, but such things are exceeding rare)
If you have some hypothesis, lay it out properly instead of simply wailing and waving your hands. Are you suggesting that risks of vaccines arose only with the introduction of glyphosate? If so, surely you can cite some supporting evidence. So far you have presented nothing worthy or more than a middle finger, in the only proper Salute. (q.v. Ferlinghetti)
Logical? Nearly identical?
This hunky, negatively-charged phosphate group on the N-terminal end of the glycine is going to be in the way. Both physically and chemically.
Heck, just in mass, the phosphate group weights as much the rest of the molecule – about 80 Da (atom mass unit) for the phosphate group, versus about 74 Da for the glycine.
This phosphate makes it impossible for the glycine to be incorporated into a protein. The ammonium group (the NH-) needs to be free to make a chemical bond with the previous aminoacid in the protein sequence chain, and the place is already taken.
Tell me not to drink glyphosate by the gallon, especially in the commercial form (comes with adjuvants to make it stick to the plant’s leaves), I would agree, but please let’s avoid nonsense about ppm traces.
You will love this article with all of the pictures of tiny coffins: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/world/asia/samoa-measles.html
Apparently you guys get a kick not only of kids suffering from diseases, but actually dying from them. Especially with all of the excuses that your kind create. Two nurses made a fatal mistake, and they are being prosecuted and punished for that. Yet, you fools think even a properly prepared vaccine causes harm. And what happens with that kind of scaremongering: at least now the Samoan government understand the difference between science and unwarranted fear.
@ yogazeal
First, the Codex Alimentarius you link to gives, for instance, 0.05 mg/kg in Banana, eggs, and milk. Higher in cereal grains, 30 mg/kg. So, I’ll let someone else answer your worries about glyphosate in vaccines.
“the levels of glyphosate they reportedly found? They ranged from 0.123 ppb (parts per billion) to 2.671 ppb. That would be much lower than substances in vaccines that are left over in residual amounts, which are often described in ppm (parts per million) amounts.” Iannelli (2019 Sep 14). Glyphosate in vaccines. VAXOPEDIA Available at:
https://vaxopedia.org/2016/09/14/glyphosate-in-vaccines/
I have several more related articles. I suggest you read the above. Do you have any idea how little parts per billion is? Far far less than ).05 mg/kg, exponentially less.
Now let’s look at this in perspective. The title of an article says it all: Goodman (2009 Dec 2). “Tests Find More Than 200 Chemicals in Newborn Umbilical Cord Blood. Scientific American. Available at: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/newborn-babies-chemicals-exposure-bpa/
From the article: “We know the developing fetus is one of the most vulnerable populations, if not the most vulnerable, to environmental exposure. Their organ systems aren’t mature and their detox methods are not in place, so cord blood gives us a good picture of exposure during this most vulnerable time of life.”
Another article also worth reading: Kurtzman (2018 Jul 26). 56 suspect chemicals found in the average pregnant woman. University of California. Available at: https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/56-suspect-chemicals-found-average-pregnant-woman
And Wikipedia has an article entitled “Environmental toxicants and fetal development”
Available at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_toxicants_and_fetal_development
Note it includes a section on pesticides.
And an excellent book is: Phillip and Mary Landrigans (2018). Children & Environmental Toxins. Oxford University Press.
Or “The scientific advancements of industry and agriculture have brought about the manufacture of over 75,000 synthetic chemicals, with a marked increase in the use of highly toxic pesticides in recent years . . .Children come in contact with pesticides every day through the food they eat, the water they drink and the air they breathe. In addition, most children are exposed to pesticides in their homes and schools, as well as on playgrounds, lawns, athletic fields, and public parks. These substances enter their small bodies through the skin, lungs, mouth and eyes.” Sheppard (accessed 2019 Dec 23). Growing Up On Chemicals – Our Children’s Toxic Environment. Healthy Child. Available at: https://www.healthychild.com/growing-up-on-chemicals-our-childrens-toxic-environment/
And how about plastics? “Plastic pollution is everywhere: in our oceans, in our waterways, even in the fish that we eat. But according to a new study, a startling 97% of children were found to have plastic byproducts inside their bodies . . .Younger children were the most affected by plastic byproducts, with proportions of plastic in their system much higher.” Milka (2019 Sep 16). Dangerous levels of plastic found in children’s bodies finds new study. NationofChange. Available at: https://www.nationofchange.org/2019/09/16/dangerous-levels-of-plastic-found-in-childrens-bodies-finds-new-study/
If you have access to PBS, there is an excellent program entitled: “The Plastic Problem”. Canada and Europe have or about to ban single use plastics, e.g., straws; but not the U.S.
So, the fetus is exposed to numerous dangerous chemicals, so are young infants. Add plastic to the mix. And you are worried about a few parts per billion in vaccines, if they even exist as the lab doing the testing wasn’t equipped for such testing.
Oh well. I find it both fascinating and frightening the creativity together with lack of understanding of the basics of science that emerges from the paranoid delusions of antivaccinationists.
If you are really concerned about the fetus and infants, I’d join groups advocating a ban on single-use plastics and many pesticides which exist in LARGE quantities in our environments, not parts per billion.
Joel A. Harrison: I think we can agree there are some severe vaccine failures. Large proportions of the next generation are diagnosed with conditions that will drain society’s capacity to care for older people like you and me in the coming decades.
Although you wish to merge my concerns with hare-brained complaints, please focus on glyphosate mutations.
The protein assembly can be weighed, and shown to incorporate the phosphate in mutations . . . . but the larger problem is the huge range of possible locations of glycine, that can be taken by glyphosate. This variability of the mutations forces minute variations, but each mutation will ruin the function of these proteins, building unpredictable “biological engines”.
This sort of mutation is potent, and, despite your desire to paper over the statistical chances, too destructive to discount so readily. If we are not able to find tests that show mutation from glyphosate . . . then more stringent forms of testing are needed.
That task would be a good test of your interest in finding the cause of the vaccine failures.
“Joel A. Harrison: I think we can agree there are some severe vaccine failures. Large proportions of the next generation are diagnosed with conditions that will drain society’s capacity to care for older people like you and me in the coming decades.”
Provide actual citations from qualified reputable researchers. This sounds like anything you can name will be blamed on vaccines. Now I repeat:
Now where are those PubMed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases? Does the MMR vaccine cause pneumonia in one out of twenty doses? Does the DTaP vaccine cause death in one in thirty five doses? That was the kill rate of actually getting diphtheria in the former Soviet Union states in the 1990s: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640235/pdf/9866730.pdf
Do you really want to be known as a sadistic child hater who likes to see kids suffer from those diseases with high fevers, pneumonia, seizures, unable to breathe, muscle spasms, encephalitis, etc and a good chance of permanent disability?
Here are some real drains on society:
A million dollars for tetanus, and another million to deal with a measles outbreak:
https://www.oregonlive.com/health/2019/03/unvaccinated-oregon-boy-6-nearly-dies-of-tetanus-racks-up-1-million-in-bills.html
https://www.oregonlive.com/health/2019/02/cost-of-washington-measles-outbreak-tops-1m.html
San Diego measles outbreak, “et public-sector cost of $10 376 per case.”:
Pediatrics. 2010 Apr;125(4):747-55. doi: 10.1542/peds.2009-1653. Epub 2010 Mar 22.
Measles outbreak in a highly vaccinated population, San Diego, 2008: role of the intentionally undervaccinated.
“A 5% decline in MMR vaccine coverage in the United States would result in an estimated 3-fold increase in measles cases for children aged 2 to 11 years nationally every year, with an additional $2.1 million in public sector costs. The numbers would be substantially higher if unvaccinated infants, adolescents, and adult populations were also considered.”:
JAMA Pediatr. 2017 Sep 1;171(9):887-892. doi: 10.1001/jamapediatrics.2017.1695.
Public Health and Economic Consequences of Vaccine Hesitancy for Measles in the United States.
“Based on historic age-specific incidence, pertussis costs the Ontario healthcare system approximately $7.6-$21.5 M annually.”:
Vaccine. 2019 Nov 20;37(49):7240-7247. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2019.09.070. Epub 2019 Oct 1.
The health and economic burden of pertussis in Canada: A microsimulation study.
MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2011 Jan 14;60(1):5-9.
Local health department costs associated with response to a school-based pertussis outbreak — Omaha, Nebraska, September-November 2008.
PLoS One. 2014 Nov 25;9(11):e111807. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0111807. eCollection 2014.
The burden of disease and health care use among pertussis cases in school aged children and adults in England and Wales; a patient survey.
Pediatrics. 2014 Apr;133(4):577-85.
Economic Evaluation of the Routine Childhood Immunization Program in the United States, 2009.
@ yogazeal
You write: “It is logical that an artificial amino acid can take the place of the nearly identical glycine, the most common amino acid.”
Parts per billion! ! ! If the lab results were even accurate. And we are talking about a few vaccinations, whereas exposure to glyphosate from environment exponentially greater. Do you really think that a few parts per billion are dangerous compared to much much larger quantities in food, water, air, and through scratches in skin from soil, which almost all children experience? If the lab results were even valid???
With Narad’s hint, the true nature of this sadistic child hater is known: https://twitter.com/tibetanfighting
@ Joel:
I think I figured out why alt med/ anti-vax believers get freaked out over parts per billion of “toxins” in vaccines, etc.
maybe they believe in homeopathy where the lowest concentrations are the most powerful!
so 3 parts per billion in meds or a vaccine are much more dangerous than the more greatly concentrated amounts in food, water air and that acquired through scratches.
Thus the dose is the poison but in reverse.
They can never be accused of making sense.
@ Denice
Yep, except if one reads the history of homeopathy, the basic premise is to treat like with like, so, diluting something by 10 to the 28th power may be extreme; but vaccines are actually a perfect example of treating like with like, taking a killed or attenuated microbe is also using a weakened like to treat a like. Just that the vaccine actually contains the like. Once they have diluted to the 28th power it means less than one molecule in all molecules in known universe, except they then claim that water retains the memory. So, maybe we who support vaccines should emphasize that they are a form of homeopathy. LOL
I should point out that when Samuel Hahnemann developed homeopathy it was the time of heroic medicine when they bled people, gave them purges and emetics, and calomel (mercury) and arsenic. Hahnemann gave them fruit and vegetables, sunshine when available, and his water-containing memory, so, since many people survived, even from smallpox, etc., Hahnemann’s approach was basically adequate nutrition and allow the body to do its thing; but he and subsequent generations believe it was the memory-containing water. Don’t you love it???
When I lived in Philadelphia I lived a couple of blocks from Hahnemann Medical School library and often spent Saturdays there. I wonder if the drinking fountains contained homeopathic water. Maybe that’s why I’m still alive in my mid-70s??????????????
Dr. Harrison wrote “Do you really think that a few parts per billion are dangerous . . . ”
Briefly, yes.
More to the point is that pesky distinction between exposure “by ingestion” and “by injection.” Since the possible location of the “mutating glyphosate for glycine” substitution is one of hundreds of slots dedicated to glycine in the growing proteins, the resultant vaccine injected is going to act unpredictably – this possibility could explain the mysterious duds that negate disease resistance, ranging up to explaining the entire “Autism Epidemic”.
This overwhelming tide of vaccine injuries has not been adequately studied because professionals like Dr. Harrison point fingers instead of pointing out the weak link in vaccine production – allowable residues of RoundUp’s Glyphosate. The vanishingly small amounts of glyphosate allowed could be poised to be built into the vaccine proteins, and requires intense study.
This epidemic SHOULD be cause to dedicate great resources to determine the state of vaccine mutations.
I hope we can agree this vector, as legislated by Monsanto, represents a critical weakness.
Why? Especially since you have no biology education?
And again I ask:
Now where are those PubMed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases? Does the MMR vaccine cause pneumonia in one out of twenty doses? Does the DTaP vaccine cause death in one in thirty five doses? That was the kill rate of actually getting diphtheria in the former Soviet Union states in the 1990s: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640235/pdf/9866730.pdf
Do you really want to be known as a sadistic child hater who likes to see kids suffer from those diseases with high fevers, pneumonia, seizures, unable to breathe, muscle spasms, encephalitis, etc and a good chance of permanent disability?
C2H5NO2 (glycine) and C3H8NO5P (glyphosate) have very different chemical formulas, three-dimensional structure and function, but one must concede they do have “gly” in their names, so are practically identical.
Not.
Might be worth alerting Carey Gillam though, sounds like fodder for another book.
Glyphosate does not substitute for glycine during protein synthesis:
Antoniou MN et al. Glyphosate does not substitute for glycine in proteins of actively dividing mammalian cells. BMC Res Notes. 2019 Aug 8;12(1):494. doi: 10.1186/s13104-019-4534-3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6686468/
Kim HW et al. The specific incorporation of labelled aromatic amino acids into proteins through growth of bacteria in the presence of glyphosate. Application to fluorotryptophan labelling to the H(+)-ATPase of Escherichia coli and NMR studies. FEBS Lett. 1990 Oct 15;272(1-2):34-6. https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1016/0014-5793%2890%2980442-L
Here’s a link to an article that deconstructs the Seneff’s foolish arguments regarding glyphosate toxicity:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5705608/
In reply to Brian, you have posted a few studies, including one nearly thirty years old, that do not make adequate justification to deny this avenue of mutation . . . at least I would not inject a child with material grown with legal, quantified and regulated residues of an artificial amino acid. Neither Monsanto nor the Big Pharma manufacturers have enough studies to deny that glyphosate can fit into the proteins.. More testing needed, but precaution is required before risking further vaccine injury.
The penalty for ignoring this request for more tests is to expect more errors in vaccines in the bloodstreams of young people forced to get injections.
Why should we care about your uneducated opinions? Sure, I might hire you to build a storage shed, but dictate medical policies… absolutely not.
Now where are those PubMed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases? Does the MMR vaccine cause pneumonia in one out of twenty doses? Does the DTaP vaccine cause death in one in thirty five doses? That was the kill rate of actually getting diphtheria in the former Soviet Union states in the 1990s: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640235/pdf/9866730.pdf
Do you really want to be known as a sadistic child hater who likes to see kids suffer from those diseases with high fevers, pneumonia, seizures, unable to breathe, muscle spasms, encephalitis, etc and a good chance of permanent disability?
yogazeal wrote:
Indeed, that 1990 paper suggests that Seneff’s subsequent foolishness should have been avoided, but, OTOH, the 2019 paper proves the point.
BTW, regarding “mutation”: You keep using that word. I do not think that it means what you think it means.
The saddest part here is that you are presumably a native English speaker.
Mr. Bacon: There are key similarities between C2H5NO2 (glycine) and C3H8NO5P (glyphosate), in that the peptide linkage is repeated. Considering the hundreds of possible linkage sites, and, as Dr. harrison mentioned, the fact that mutations occur regularly, it is not wise to discount this avenue to vaccine failures.
Who cares about what you think?
Today I made a meatloaf patty from “Beyond Meat”, I was freaked out that it burned too quickly. And the meatloaf portion in the oven looked weird.
I used the recipe that included lots of veg from when my kids were young. So instead of the 1.5# of hamburger we used to get from Costo, I used one pound of Beyond Beef (a plant based ground). While it was lovely that my pescatarian child-in-law enjoyed it, we were glad that oldest level 2 autistic vegetarian kid enjoyed it without sauces. (translation: no ketchup or hot sauce!)
Which brings up this question: why do you think my autistic kid is not worthy of life? It is like you do not want them on this planet. Even though this young person is lovely and a fantastic house sitter. So what if they are the sole member and president of the anti-social social club?
Why do you hate kids so much that you want then to suffer from high fevers, pneumonia, meningitis, muscle spasms, etc. with a good chance of permanent disabilitly or death?
“the fact that mutations occur regularly”
So have you, your child and the child’s mother signed up for this study: https://sparkforautism.org/
If your are for actual science, you would have done this. Otherwise you are a sadistic child hater who loves to see kids suffer from vaccine preventable diseases. Remember, those diseases were bad enough that adults who had seen the carnage wanted to prevent it for their kids and grandkids.
Obviously you are in the “let kids suffer camp even though it causes permanent disability camp.”
@ yoga zeal
First, where did I mention mutations occurring regularly?
And you ignore what brian DECEMBER 24, 2019 AT 2:45 PM wrote:
Glyphosate does not substitute for glycine during protein synthesis:
He links to three papers, two from 2017 and 2019.
What? That’s technobabble.
We are not on a Star Trek moviemaking set, boy.
Dr. Harrison, the possibility of mutations caused by artificial amino acids is an avenue that must be explored, to guarantee that inoculation safety we all want.
Curiously, none doubt the presence of glyphosate in the materials used to grow vaccines. What could motivate those that deride this fear?
Monsanto should pay for in depth studies to reduce uncertainty about the actions of Glyphosate in protein development.
None write here to doubt the damage to many youngsters from vaccines, and morally, Orac and the crew should demand more study – before society is severely weakened by related medical costs.
You keep referring to “mutation” but you have presented not one tiny shred of conjecture or hypothesis of how glyphosate could cause mutation. My suspicion, based on what you have written, is that you have no understanding whatever of the biology – you don’t even know what the words you use mean.
You have claimed that injected glyphosate will behave differently than ingested glyphosate, but have presented no evidence to support this. How much glyphosate from, say, 25 g of cereal with a content of 3 mg/kg of glyphosate makes it into circulating blood? Where does the rest go? Is it destroyed in first pass? How does the amount that makes it to circulation compare with the maximum amount that would be in a typical dose of vaccine? Show us you can do some arithmetic, even if your biology knowledge is dismal.
Argument by blatant assertion does not work here.
So where are those PubMed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases? Does the MMR vaccine cause pneumonia in one out of twenty doses? Does the DTaP vaccine cause death in one in thirty five doses? That was the kill rate of actually getting diphtheria in the former Soviet Union states in the 1990s: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640235/pdf/9866730.pdf
“… before society is severely weakened by related medical costs.”
Like the measles outbreaks in the state of Washington, state of New York and elsewhere? Or the cost of treating one kid with tetanus? Do you know how to click on links or find papers when given title, date and journal?
Do you really want to be known as a sadistic child hater who likes to see kids suffer from those diseases with high fevers, pneumonia, seizures, unable to breathe, muscle spasms, encephalitis, etc and a good chance of permanent disability? Especially one who is so incompetent that you cannot figure out how to get a hold of and read scientific/economic reports.
yogazeal wrote: