Categories
Antivaccine nonsense Bad science Biology Medicine Pseudoscience

James Lyons-Weiler and Paul Thomas: Incompetently demonizing aluminum vaccine adjuvants

James Lyons-Weiler has published an analysis claiming that Paul Thomas’ “Vaccine-Friendly Plan” is safer than the current CDC-recommended vaccine schedule because contains less aluminum. Unsurprisingly, The modeling behind the analysis is risibly incompetent. Same as it ever was.

I’ve frequently discussed how, to the antivaccine movement, aluminum is the new mercury? What do I mean by that? Regulars who’ve been following the misinformation, pseudoscience, and misdirections promoted by the antivaccine movement know that, way back when I first started blogging in 2004 and for several years before, one major faction of the antivaccine movement was something we dubbed the “mercury militia.” The mercury militia was more of an American phenomenon, as opposed to the Andrew Wakefield wing of the antivaccine movement that demonized the MMR vaccine for causing autism based on Wakefield’s fraudulent case series published in The Lancet in 1998. True to its name, the mercury militia demonized vaccines based on the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal, which was used in multidose vials of some childhood vaccines until around 2002, after the CDC had, in a misuse of the precautionary principal and as a result of the strong personality of one man, recommended its removal. This, of course, only fueled the mercury militia’s fear mongering about mercury. Later, as study after study after study were published showing no link between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism, even the mercury militia had difficulty defending its key hypothesis, to the point that the mercury militia group Generation Rescue dropped mercury as The One True Cause of Autism in favor of a hypothesis positing multifactorial causes (vaccines, toxins, heavy metals, pollution) that was, conveniently, much more difficult to falsify. (More recently, Generation Rescue has rebranded itself into more general autism quackery and grift.) Enter aluminum, which became the new mercury.

Aluminum, of course, is used as an adjuvant, which increases the immune response to a vaccine, allowing less antigen to be used in the vaccine. It’s generally present in the form of aluminum hydroxide and/or aluminum phosphate salts. They’re injected intramuscularly and sit in the muscle with the antigens, provoking the desired immune response through mechanisms that aren’t well understood.

Now, also enter Paul Thomas and James Lyons-Weller, whom we’ve met before and who have apparently teamed up to do a dubious “vaxxed/unvaxxed” study. They’ve also published a paper demonizing aluminum, which Del Bigtree is touting:

Informed Consent Action Network Founder Del Bigtree today touted a new study that will be published in the March 2020 Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology, showing the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) vaccine schedule is 15.9 times the recommended safety level for aluminum when adjusted for body weight.

“The researchers concluded that in the first 149 days of life, from birth to seven months, a child is in a state of ‘chronic toxicity’ for aluminum about 70% of the time,” Bigtree, an Emmy-award winning television producer and host of the weekly online science and health program The HighWire, says.

The researchers chose the time range ‘birth to seven months’ due to the significant neurodevelopmental changes that occur during that period. Aluminum has been found in the brains of patients with Parkinson’s Disease, Alzheimer’s disease, epilepsy, and autism.

How quaint. How old-fashioned. The paper is already online in an Epub Ahead of Print format, and Bigtree is acting as though print journals still matter when it comes to publication dates. Why is he waiting until early 2020 to have Lyons-Weiler and Thomas on his show? Maybe he’s not so old-fashioned after all and realizes that the impeachment drama and the impending holidays mean that a lot of people won’t be paying attention. Whatever the reason, let’s look at the paper.

Two of the authors, as I’ve mentioned before, are known to me. James Lyons-Weiler was actually a legitimate scientist before he turned to antivaccine pseudoscience, having trained in computational molecular biology and served as the director of the Bioinformatics Analysis Core at the University of Pittsburgh for several years until around five years ago, when, for whatever reason, he left and founded the Institute for Pure and Applied Knowledge (IPAK), which took to carrying out and funding pseudoscientific antivaccine projects. Basically, he’s gone full antivax. Paul Thomas, of course, is a pediatrician in Portland, OR who’s become a rising star in the antivaccine movement by coming up with a “delayed” vaccine plan that resembles Dr. Bob Sears’ plan, agitating against vaccines in his “holistic” practice with “misinformed consent” while claiming to be “pro-safe vaccine,” and claiming that, like the late Dr. Mayer Eisenstein did without ever actually showing the evidence, that the prevalence of autism in his unvaccinated patients is much lower than in the vaccinated.

Who are the other two “researchers”? Both Grant McFarland and Elaine La Joie are listed as being affiliated with IPAK. McFarland’s bio lists him as having a BS in electrical engineering from Duke University, and a PhD in electrical engineering from Stanford University, whose expertise is in microprocessor design. His utter lack of expertise in epidemiology, immunology, infectious disease, and epidemiology notwithstanding, he’s listed as an investigator for a study of aluminum accumulation under alternative schedules and, of course, IPAK and Thomas’ vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study. La Joie is only slightly more qualified. Her bio lists her as having a BS in Physics from San Jose State University and a Masters in Applied Physics from Oregon Graduate Institute, but she did do a fellowship at the NIH and “worked in biomedical research at the Oregon Medical Laser Center in Portland and later in neuroscience at the University of Texas.”

Also:

Elaine also is a certified life coach, and has a shamanic work practice mainly working with clients who have experience trauma. She has written a series of books based on her client work called The Empath as Archetype. She is excited to return to science and contribute to IPAK in any way she can.

Given the nature of IPAK, I’m not sure I’d call this “returning” to science.

So what we have here are:

  • An antivax pediatrician with no experience in epidemiology, basic science studies, epidemiology, advanced pharmacology research, or clinical trial design.
  • An antivax computational biologist with minimal experience in epidemiology or the design of epidemiological studies, and little experience in pharmacology or pharmacokinetics.
  • An electrical engineer whose expertise is microprocessor design.
  • A physicist with a smattering of research experience in biomedical science.

OK, then. This lineup of qualifications hardly fills me with confidence. To do an analysis of this type, you need people with expertise in pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics and in modeling. None of the investigators show any evidence of having the necessary expertise, and Lyons-Weiler’s expertise in computational biology does not translate to PK/PD. That issue having been taken care of, let’s move on to the paper, Acute exposure and chronic retention of aluminum in three vaccine schedules and effects of genetic and environmental variation, published in—where else?—the latest go-to journal for antivaccine papers seeking to demonize aluminum, the Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology.

The abstract is a word salad of misapplied concepts that immediately tells me that no original research is being done. It’s all modeling, and it’s basically propaganda for Thomas’s “Vaccine-Friendly Plan” more than science. Its assumptions are so utterly simplistic that I was actually embarrassed for the investigators reading it. First of all, Lyons-Weiler harps on a 1995 paper by Priest et al, which studied the metabolism of aluminum-26 and gallium-67 by injecting them intravenously into a single healthy male subject and then measuring the retention by measuring the remaining radioactivity. Levels in blood, urine, and feces were determined by y-ray spectrometry and/or accelerator mass spectrometry. This was the basis of the modeling done by Lyons-Weiler. The problem with Lyons-Weiler assuming this to be a valid set of data to base his modeling on this study will rapidly become apparent. Maybe you have already recognized the flaw.

First, though, Lyons-Weiler’s whole bugaboo is that the FDA’s safe level for aluminum dosing is for adults and that it’s not normalized to a child’s weight:

Minimum safe levels (MSLs) for aluminum (in the form of aluminum oxyhydroxide, aluminum phosphate, or aluminum potassium sulfate) are equivalent to the Pediatric Dose Limit estimated by Lyons-Weiler and Ricketson (29,773,196), based on the FDA’s limit of 850 μg of aluminum per dose for adults. Assuming an average adult weight of 60 kg and using Clark’s rule (cited in Lyons-Weiler and Ricketson) leads to a target “safe” limit of 14.2 μg of aluminum per kg of body weight as a way of calculating a body weight-adjusted Pediatric Dose Limit (PDL: Lyons-Weiler and Ricketson, 29,773,196); Fig. 1. This curve, derived by Lyons-Weiler and Ricketson, is the only available dose limit for human infants that considers body weight. As a limit, it attends to the cumulative dosage and body burden from any source if the values are known. This target limit per body weight was used along with weight distributions across the population to estimate a minimum safe level (MSL) of aluminum exposure as a function of a child’s age and weight percentile.

Clark’s rule is basically a quick and dirty formula to scale adult doses of a medicine to pediatric doses by weight. A certain feathery dinosaur has already discussed this in detail. (Actually, he hosted an article by aultDwellerSYR, a pseudonym used by a faculty member of a School of Pharmacy within a large medical school.) So I don’t see a lot of value to explaining the same thing, other than maybe to add some sarcasm that our raptory friend’s guest blogger left out. So I’ll both quote liberally and add my sarcasm. After all, Lyons-Weiler definitely deserves a fair amount of not-so-Respectful Insolence. The article to which Lyons-Weiler refers was, not surprisingly, also published in the same journal in 2018. In it, in his arrogance of ignorance, Lyons-Weiler argues that “several critical mistakes have been made in the consideration of pediatric dosing of aluminum in vaccines” and “on Day 1 of life, infants receive 17 times more aluminum than would be allowed if doses were adjusted per body weight.” The only redeeming feature of the paper is that Weiler outright admits that his “revised minimum risk level (MRL)” for aluminum dosing in infants is “based on derived speculation, not on safety data.” Well OK, then. Again.

Based on that paper, Lyons-Weiler states:

None of the individual vaccines violates the guidance of a maximum of 850 μg of aluminum for an adult (Table 1). However, because of multiple vaccines typically given together at 2, 4, and 6 months, the CDC schedule violates this limit even assuming an adult weight ([27]; 29,773,196). Adjusting the safe dose limit based on a child’s weight at these ages therefore results in doses that far exceed the estimated safe limit of acute toxicity (Lyons-Weiler and Ricketson, 29,773,196).

In any case, let’s quote what a certain pseudonymous pharmacologist has to say about the use of Clark’s formula and Lyons-Weiler’s use of it, using a hypothetical example of a boy dosed with amoxicillin:

But you cannot use this formula to determine the average plasma concentration of amoxicillin in this boy just by knowing the dose administered. It needs a completely different formula that accounts for important PK parameters such as the bioavailability (if you give the medication outside an IV route), the dosing interval (how many times a day you give that boy the antibiotics) and the clearance of the drug (how fast the antibiotic is removed from the body).

And:

It is also important to factor in the bioavailability of a drug (F) for the determination of Cave. By default, F=1 for injection via a vascular route (commonly via intravenous route), whereas F<1 for any extravascular route (including oral (PO) and intramuscular administration (IM) route). In other words, the only situation where you can assume all the substance goes into the bloodstream is when the substance is given directly into the vein – any other form of administration, including intramuscular administration (the common way vaccines are given), leads to less of the substance ending in the bloodstream (see discussion below).

And that’s where Lyons-Weiler stumbles. Nowhere in his model does he consider bioavailability. Antivaxxers somewhat correctly point out that the bioavailability of aluminum in the diet is low, making comparisons with vaccine injections problematic. I say “somewhat correctly” because it turns out that bioavailability of aluminum injected intramuscularly is also low. Our pseudonymous pharmacologist cites a paper that estimated the bioavailability of aluminum to be 0.6% for intramuscular (IM) administration and 0.3% for oral administration. So both IM and oral dosing of aluminum result in a low (and similar) bioavailability. The difference is only two-fold, not so great after all, unlike the assumption of antivaxxers that IM dosing will have a much higher bioavailability than oral dosing. Lyons-Weiler misapplies the Priest model, which was based on IV injection (100% bioavailability) and a single dose.

That being said, the FDA safe limit for aluminum dosing was based on a paper by Bishop et al, in which the authors demonstrated better neurological outcomes in premature newborns fed by total parenteral nutrition (intravenous nutrition) when an aluminum-depleted formula was used. One can’t help but note with amusement that Lyons-Weiler was apparently utterly oblivious to that fact by his emphasis of the FDA limit applying only to adults.

Also, to echo our friendly neighborhood pseudomyous pharmacologist, Lyons-Weiler misunderstands pharmacology, pharmacokinetics, and pharmacodynamics. Specifically, he does not differentiate between a vascular route of administration (intravenous) and the nonvascular route used for vaccines (IM). Let me, as a physician and someone with a fair amount of training pharmacology and pharmacokinetics training (although clearly not nearly as extensive training as a real pharmacologist like the raptor’s guest blogger, who included equations and everything in his deconstruction), IV and IM routes of administration often produce very different rates of increase and decrease of plasma levels of drug. In his model, Lyons-Weiler assumed 100% bioavailability of vaccine-associated aluminum and nearly instantaneous peak plasma concentrations.

Read the deconstruction hosted by our feathery scaly friend. I’m going to quote a bit more and then add my own concluding thoughts:

What is really concerning and should have been an immediate rejection of the study was the inability of the authors to integrate that IV routes and non-IV routes have distinct features when it comes to absorption. You cannot immediately compare them unless you integrate the bioavailability for oral and injections (I refer here to IM and SC routes). You have to consider the fraction that is bioavailable (in other words, the amount that reached the whole blood circulation) and only then you can compare such fraction to values obtained from IV data.

This callousness of the author to compare IV and IM routes as is, assuming that the amount of aluminum injected from vaccines was delivered instantaneously all at once into the bloodstream is reflective of a severe deficiency in understanding basic concepts of pharmacokinetics, making them unfit to run such study.

The second mistake made by the author is that the safety limit set by the FDA was set based on the work made by Bishop and colleagues on premature infants. Therefore, the need for the Clark formula to adjust a dose from an adult population to an infant population is completely useless: the source is already in infants.

Further, the authors also omitted to cite relevant literature, both from preclinical and clinical studies, that shown no increase in aluminum plasma levels in infants and toddlers [7-10] following immunization with aluminum adjuvants-containing vaccines, or following IM injections of aluminum adjuvants in rodent models at doses reflective or significantly higher than humans.

So. Many. Screwups. Our pharmacologist friend also noted that, contrary to Lyons-Weiler’s “calculations” and “modeling,” even with repeated dosing aluminum can’t accumulate the way Lyons-Weiler claims:

If we assume a dosing interval (Tau) between two rounds of 2 months (60 days = 1440 hours), and a terminal half-life of 6 hours (according to Priest), the ratio obtained is 6/1440 = 0.004. It is impossible mathematically to achieve an accumulation of aluminum in the central compartment with the recommended CDC schedule.

Let’s just put it this way. The flaws in this paper are so bad that even I, a nonpharmacologist with some training in pharmacology, can easily spot them, although admittedly I can’t deconstruct them at the same level of exquisite detail, complete with equations and graphs, as our friendly neighborhood pseudonymous pharmacologist can. I immediately spotted the sloppy, false assumption behind Lyons-Weiler’s “model,” namely its use of data from intravenous, one dose administration of aluminum to base its model for IM doses of aluminum on and its failure to take into account the much lower bioavailability of aluminum from IM administration compared to IV. I also recognized the cherry picking of the literature used to come up with this model.

The question I’m left with here is simple. Is Lyons-Weiler incompetent and unaware of it, leading him to march bravely and foolishly into a discipline in which he is utterly unqualified and do an analysis of this type? Or does he know better and is instead dishonestly constructing a model that he knows will sound plausible to someone without training in PK/PD in order to provide propaganda material for antivaxxers like Del Bigtree, Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., and the like to trumpet as “scientific support” for their claim that aluminum adjuvants are dangerous. In my opinion, those really are the only two possibilities (incompetent or dishonest), although I suppose that it’s possible that the explanation could be a little of both. After all, incompetence and dishonesty are at the ends of the spectrum of possibilities explaining a paper like this. Lyons-Weiler could well be somewhere between the two.

Whatever the case, it’s clear that the Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology has become the go-to journal for antivaxxers who want to publish pseudoscience and execrable science about aluminum.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

220 replies on “James Lyons-Weiler and Paul Thomas: Incompetently demonizing aluminum vaccine adjuvants”

“In my opinion, those really are the only two possibilities (incompetent or dishonest), although I suppose that it’s possible that the explanation could be a little of both.”

Or a considerable amount of both.

Given the ludicrous ease with which even casual observers are carving up these authors’ gross incompetence/outright malice, who at that Elsevier chip wrapper is responsible for its peer review oversight? And is there are some outstanding reason they haven’t been loaded into a cannon yet and shot into the sun? ’Cos who the F— were the actual peers? “Fraudypants” Wakefield and some witch from a gingerbread house? Again, cannon; ideally followed by the entire editorial staff and a couple of Elsevier directors too to stand as a warning for all the rest.

If science can’t even keep its own house clean, it might as well close up shop and go hock patent potions off the back of a pony and cart. At least there’s tar and a-featherin’ to regulate that.

Orac: ” Generation Rescue dropped mercury as The One True Cause of Autism..”

And RFK jr had to change the name of his charity to Children’s Health Defense from World Mercury Project.
See, these people can learn and grow- although never enough.

Yeah, somehow I forgot about that one. Actually, I might add a mention that my first major foray into deconstructing antivaccine pseudoscience was taking apart RFK Jr.’s “Deadly Immunity” article in 2005.

“[co-author] has been implicated in a medical malpractice lawsuit in 2001 for inserting a screwdriver in a patient spine.”

((ʘ_ʘ))’

Anti-vaxxers. When every problem looks like a nail.

Oh, my god. No wonder this Rickertson fellow is involved with pseudoscience. No state will grant him a license to practice medicine.

There is an element in science of being known by who you associate with. If you allow your name to be on papers with complete cranks, you should expect people to conclude that you are a crank yourself. Lyon’s-Weiler should have enough science background to know that what he is peddling is a tissue of lies. The fact that he happily associates with liars and cranks without criticising them in any way, shows he does not care.

The BBB Scientist is no longer correct where he describes that earlier paper as being “published in a journal in which a notorious anti-vaccine scientist is sitting in the editorial board.” Exley left the JTEMB editorial board some time this year (I don’t know if he was still around when the current paper was accepted by the same journal).

I only do the PD side of things, and leave the modeling to the QSP folk, but still – I can draw you a rough curve of what IM vs SC vs IV dosing looks like re: circulating concentration, because you need to have a rough idea of that to do your job at all. They really did fail at the 101 level of all of this.

I think you are confused by pseudoscience. You are on the dark side when you prefer kids suffer from high fevers, seizures, pneumonia, meningitis, muscle spasms, etc with a good chance of permanent disability from diseases.

Bioavailability of the immunologic adjuvant (aluminum oxyhydroxide, aluminum phosphate, or aluminum potassium sulfate) antigen complex is just part of the equation. Its dissociation constant in the IV or IM environment, and reassociation with endogenous/exogenous proteins must also be considered.

@ Orac,

During puberty, you were a good undergraduate chemist. Care to discuss?

A simple model would be a kitchen sink: put a bucket of water into it (the injection) and let water go out (removal of aluminium), Add to that that lot of water misses the sink (bioavaibility)

@ Aarno Syvänen.

Q. What happens when there are dirty dishes, soap, and sponges in the sink.

Bioavailability is immensely complex, and it’s silly to teach that a simplistic in/out model will suffice. There are solubility parameters, dissociation factors, and metabolic pathways that affect the bioavailability of aluminum-based immunologic adjuvant/antigen complexes.

Orac writes, “They’re injected intramuscularly and sit in the muscle with the antigens, provoking the desired immune response through mechanisms that aren’t well understood.”

MJD says,

They’re injected intramuscularly and may be undiscriminating with alternate binding partners, provoking an undesired immune response through mechanisms that aren’t well understood.

MJD says,

They’re injected intramuscularly and may be undiscriminating with alternate binding partners, provoking an undesired immune response through mechanisms that aren’t well understood.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

@MJD Bioavaibility is amount of aluminium ending up to bloodstream. This can be easily measured. How aluminium ends there, is another matter.
Dirty sink is another thing. Do you think that aluminium injection is contaminated with aluminium ?

Panacea writes,

Assumes facts not in evidence.

MJD says,

Orac was a gifted chemistry student in his youth.

@ Orac,

Q. Are aluminum-based adjuvants covalently linked to the antigen(s).

A. Yes
B. No
C. Sometimes
D. All of the Above

Answer = ?

Hint: Substitution nucleophilic bimolecular (SN2) and Elimination (E1) reactions are not involved when forming the adjuvant/antigen complex.

Aarno Syvänen asks,

Do you think that aluminium injection is contaminated with aluminium ?

MJD says,

I do believe that aluminum-based immunologic adjuvants contain aluminum.

Aluminum-containing adjuvants are vaccine ingredients that have been used in vaccines since the 1930s. Small amounts of aluminum are added to help the body build stronger immunity against the germ in the vaccine. Aluminum is one of the most common metals found in nature and is present in air, food, and water.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/adjuvants.html

@ Aarno Syvänen,

Moving away from the sink scenario, environment has a huge effect on chemical properties. For example, my risk-taking Brother showed me that a lit match can be put out with gasoline. He did it, although, don’t try it unless you understand combustion parameters (oxygen/gasoline).

OK, let’s review the misinformation militia’s take on this topic: in the 1990’s vaccination caused macrophagic myofasciitis (MMF) because the alum salt formed a depot when injected IM (by inference with very low bioavailability); now the latest “model” assumes that alum salts in vaccine are 100% bioavailable, just like IV administration would be.

By the way, what ever happened to MMF? Well, those darned scientists at the WHO, the same one’s that always seem to be really mean to antivaxxers, did some of those studies (again!). They concluded (among other mean things) that “the evidence does not support an association between the persistence of aluminium-containing macrophages at the site of a previous vaccination and clinical symptoms or disease” (https://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/aluminium/questions/en/). It seems to make sense to antivaxxers that if low bioavailability from a depot effect was debunked by WHO meanie-scientists then maybe pretending 100% bioavailability will cause concern (20 years later mind you; a tad slow don’t cha think)? In addition to the insurmountable flaws that Orac-SkepRap-VaultDwellerSYR have so quickly and correctly pointed out (meanies!), there’s one more teeny-tiny issue. No one makes an IV vaccine. Why? Because vaccines don’t work when given IV. So why pretend by comparing vaccines to IV solutions containing alum salts in the “model”?

Assuming the editors over at JTEM&B can a) read, and b) act with a modicum of scientific objectivity, should we accept wagers as regards on which future date this study will be posted on Retraction Watch?

By the way, what ever happened to MMF?

Gherardi receives a lot of stick at PubPeer, (across multiple papers) for the tendentious nature of his citations of other papers, and for the way the statistics of his MMF cases mutate from paper to paper,
https://pubpeer.com/search?q=gherardi

For a while he was replying to his critics, but in the end he implied that they were all sockpuppets of one single critic and flounced off in a huff.
https://pubpeer.com/publications/7DF3B5A24B418BAD8C0895177BA713#46

By the way, what ever happened to MMF?

Shoenfeld declared that MMF was just one manifestation of his own ASIA claim to territory. Gherardi went along with the annexation, thinking that it would lend credibility to his own antivax crusade. Now he has no syndrome, no credibility and no crusade.

OK Smut, time for full-disclosure: I don’t get out that much. Heck, most months I barely have time to catch up on Orac’s posts because, well, work. I need a bigger brain (Del, take note, it’s OK to admit that you’re not that smart; I do it all the time). Maybe when I retire I can spend more time with Orac, the feathered dinosaur, and good ol’ Dr Vince. Why is it that only antivax doctors are known by their first name? Is there a rule that prevents Dr Vince from being called Dr Vince just because he’s also a scientist? As I said, I don’t get out that much.

In the meantime I have to thank you for the Xmas gift of those links to pubpeer. Because I don’t get out that much I’d never visited before. Now I can understand why Dr Gherardi, when challenged by all those meanie-scientists using facts (FACTS; how unfair is that!), would blame Big Pharma, CDC, WHO, Orac, the Deep State, the CIA, and Bill Nye; but sock puppets??? What, does Dr Gh think that Orac responds to all the little antivaxxers in all the world simultaneously like Santa does with gifts (nice seasonal metaphor, eh)? Ya’ know Dr Gh, not only is Orac not the One-Socket-Puppet-To-Rule-All-Antivax-Debunking but to continue the metaphor just as the majority of parents worldwide give the gift of protection from VPDs to their kids there are lots of credible scientists gifting us with debunking antivaccine pseudo-science. I seem to recall some recent political statement including the phrase “get over it”, so maybe it’s good advice for Dr Gh as well.

You are nothing if not consistent in your posts Smut: once again, well played, sir, well played.

You are nothing if not consistent in your posts Smut

My New Year Resolution is to become less predictable. Lawful Neutral, aspiring to become Chaotic.

Moose, your mention of conspiracist maunderings ties them to the strategy used by the Scientist-in-Chief (wind turbines causing cancer, snow in the winter disproves global warming, etc.). Don’t be bothered by the facts. Just keep repeating the lies and nonsense and throw lots of smoke and decoys.
This from Ambrose Bierce’s “Devil’s Dictionary”: “The Dullards came in with Adam, and being both numerous and sturdy have overrun the habitable world. The secret of their power is their insensibility to blows; tickle them with a bludgeon and they laugh with a platitude.”
Meanwhile we see the dochniak frenziedly distimming the doshes unabated.

Excuse my ignorance here, but I’ve wondered for a long time — Since Al is the 3rd most abundant element in earth’s crust. And [I think] available in hydroxide form in clays.. And kids seem to manage to eat dirt.. How does a child avoid intake of much more than microgram quantities of AL just about every day they go outside?

Kids also fall in dirt and skin their knees, they also get scratches from aluminum wire fences.

You are not being ignorant, you just don’t have the motivated reasoning to find harm in vaccines no matter how inane the “argument.”

This paper claims that aluminum from vaccines on the CDC schedule, by their dubious calculations, accumulates in the body at high enough levels to be toxic. But aluminum toxicity doesn’t just cause encephalopathy (which is NOT autism) but also fracturing osteomalacia and hypochromic anemia (https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/78/6/1150.long). I’ll simply state as your friendly neighborhood pediatrician that I’m not seeing CDC-schedule vaccinated children presenting at their 9 and 12 month well checks with encephalopathy, anemia and easily fracturing bones. Nor at the 2 year visit or 3 year visit, etc etc etc.

Yeah, Dr. Hickie – but what about all those formula-fed infants who are brought in to your office chock full of aluminum?

“While infants receive about 4.4 milligrams of aluminum in the first six months of life from vaccines, they receive more than that in their diet. Breast-fed infants ingest about 7 milligrams, formula-fed infants ingest about 38 milligrams, and infants who are fed soy formula ingest almost 117 milligrams of aluminum during the first six months of life.”

http://chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum

Aluminum is a “toxin”, so all of those babies by definition are “toxic”. I hope you’re advising their parents to get them chelated, pronto.

So dumb that you keep making the comparison between ingested (eaten) aluminum and injected aluminum. They are completely different! I wonder what would happen if a person drank the contents of the vaccinations given on a “catch-up schedule”, like 8 vaccines in one visit. Drink up! Let’s do that comparison! Volunteers? Narad?

A. The post you are commenting addressed in detail the injection v. Ingestion issue. Maybe re-read it?

B. If you are asking what would happen to someone who drinks 0.8 of a teaspoon that’s mostly water, with specs of natural ingredients and antigens, the answer is nothing. It won’t even be enough for proper hydration, and aside from the rotavirus vaccine or OPV, the active ingredients won’t survive the stomach.

It would, however, be a waste of vaccines that can actually do good if administered correctly.

Drink up! Let’s do that comparison! Volunteers? Narad?

Volunteer? No. Cash on the barrelhead, babycakes. I think I’ve previously offered to drink a tablespoon of mercury for 10 grand.

Exactly. Whenever I have a “discussion” with one of the aluminatti, I ask about why we don’t see pathology in bone, kidney and liver if aluminium adjuvants are so neurotoxic? Maybe our friend Greg would like to explain this.

Lyons-Weiler is beside himself with joy over the accolades he’s receiving from his anti-vaxx acolytes. I’d almost be embarrassed for him if he wasn’t whipping up some FUD to feed his frail ego.

Yeah, the Lying-Wailer now has a rather silly response to Orac just posted (he changed Oractciting a preterm infant aluminum study as PROOFZ that he (JLW) is correct. Again, he ignores that if infants were truly chronically toxic from aluminum on the CDC schedule, they should have multiple signs of aluminum toxicity during that chronically toxic period c/w aluminum poisoning.

Meanwhile J L-W has moved on to a new cognitive dingleberry, and is proclaiming that the existence of different measles genotypes means than vaccination is causing the virus population to evolve:
https://www.facebook.com/james.lyonsweiler/posts/10218074765275318

D8 is new relative to the origins of measles in humans, and has emerges since the onset of mass vaccination. Please share.

As far as I can tell he stumbled upon a phylogenetic tree for measles from a classic 2010 paper and realised that there is more than one genotype, therefore vaccines diddit. Quite how this works is anyone’s guess (since the D8 strain is suppressed by the vaccine just as much as the other strains). and what difference makes is also anyone’s guess (for the same reason).

The important point here is that J L-W doesn’t care about adjuvants; they are just a convenient propaganda device — when vaccines contain no adjuvants he just invents other reasons to oppose them.

Well, by that reasoning, there must have been super sekrit guvmint vaccinez (or time travlin’ CDC workers) 1,000 years ago when measles virus branched from rinderpest (which vaccines eradicated just like smallpox and which would happen with measles (vaccine eradication) if jerks like JLW and Paul Thomas would stop their anti-vax crap).

And in last night’s pathetic anti-Orac, anti-vax rant JLW stupidly blathers:

There is no credible empirical Science that shows that the use of a thimerosal-containing influenza vaccine and aluminum-containing vaccines in the same office visit, or in successive office visits, does not induce serious synergistic toxicity, especially for low-birthweight babies, or infants of mothers with low income, or African American males. Sadly, none of the Science that one would expect to have been done has been conducted.

I don’t know of any pediatric offices that even bother to order the thimerosal-containing flu vaccine now, which can’t be given until age 3 years anyhow (since it’s not made for the 6mos-3yrs age dose). And after age 3 years, the next aluminum-adjuvant vaccine isn’t given until 4 -5 years age–well after autism is picked up in children. Oh, and then the next vaccine other than annual flu vaccine isn’t given until age 11 yrs. There’s plenty of “Science” out there JLW in the form of healthy children, none of whom show any clinical indications of mercury or aluminum toxicity. Nice to see JLW either doesn’t know or ignores the CDC vaccine schedule he so vehemently attacks.
We’re not giving any thimerosal-containing vaccines to low-birthweight babies. Again there can’t be thimerosal in any vaccine until 3 years age anyhow, and it’s been that way for almost 20 years now (so there goes that mercury-autism hypothesis JLW) and thus there can’t be any mercury-Al “synergistic toxicity”. Again, JLW attacks a vaccine schedule he doesn’t even understand.
How desperate is JLW when he has to flog the powdered skeletal remains of the dead horse that was Brian Hooker’s botched “re-analysis” of DeStefano’s paper? Well, he’s that desperate.

IANAD, and a distasteful question I know, but is it possible JLW might have an untreated psychosis or other neurological condition of concern? Quite frankly the man sounds right off his trolley, yet clearly a very intelligent and—presumably—rational scientist up until quite recently. Far from the only potential explanation (e.g. our frequent fliers are testament to that, as well as such luminaries as Pauling and Montagnier), but it might offer a better fit of available facts than {stuff which doesn’t happen in reality}. At least doing the science to confirm/eliminate that option would seem a prudent precaution.

(And p.s.: I’m being only very slightly sarcastic here, ’cos I have seen that shit up close in reality and it is absolutely awful for everything and everyone it touches. Not a joking matter, unlike JLW’s current “work”.)

@ has–from a December 14 FB post by JLW, perhaps an answer to what sent him off the deep end:

In 2015, while contemplating grabbing the Pharma bulls by the horns, I paused for a moment to reflect on the impact my decision would have on my life. I decided to run it by Grace Ruggirello Innes as it’s her life, too. Together, we watched a video of a young adult (male) enduring horrific seizures induced by vaccines. We both knew that could not, and should not, turn my back on the issue. It is a decision we made with our whole hearts. Now that I know the results, first hand, I can only describe their implications as damning, the reality horrific, the decisions to bury them infuriating. I know that we will have to temper the public’s reaction when we publish. I know you want to see the results. All I can say is that the results should pass peer review first. And I’m confident they will. I will be asking everyone to take a considered approach, when the results are made public, and choose a condition important to you that we studied. Make that condition (health outcome) and our finding on its risk the 3-minute comment in any arbitrary Board of Health/Dept of Health public meeting. Share the study with them when it comes out. To your doctors and ex-doctors, too. To those who no longer speak w/you because you awoke first. The manuscript is a couple of weeks away from being completed. Then peer review. We do not know how long that will take. While humanity’s impact on the planet is important to me, it is not Greta who is my person of the year. The person of the year to me is the young man whose horrific suffering motivated me to stay the course, and gave Grace Ruggirello Innes the undying resolve to support me throughout this ordeal, to hopefully a much better world with reduced human pain and suffering. To the end.

Professor Peter Hotez earlier this year identified 3 major drivers of the US anti-vaccine movement: (1) political action committees (PACs), (2) the large anti-vax media empire, and (3) silence from the science community. I would argue that there is a 4th driver of the anti-vax movement: the fraudulent research arm, spearheaded in past by people like Wakefield, Geier, Exley, Shaw and Tomljenovic, but now more recently by JLW and Thomas (who has the patient access and popularity the others lack). Again, Thomas continually (and falsely) proclaims he’s prevented autism in his practice with his VFP schedule (though he’s only published in in his paperback anti-vax book), but in the meanwhile Thomas has enrolled over 400 of his 5,000 infant goal in his unregulated prospective vaxxed vs unvaxxed Pediatric Health Outcomes Initiative.

The person of the year to me is the young man whose horrific suffering motivated me to stay the course

That there is some primo begging the question.

Meanwhile J L-W has moved on to a new cognitive dingleberry, and is proclaiming that the existence of different measles genotypes means than vaccination is causing the virus population to evolve:

Oh how precious. I would have though someone running a bioinformatics group would have a better handle on phylogenetic analysis than that.

I suspect that J L-W is test-driving a new product from the antivax Sophistry Factory, to spin away / capitalise on recent unfortunate events. I intuit his thought processes as follows:

Measles is a benign disease of childhood. But
Between the initial infection and the sequelae, the outbreak in Samoa killed ~1% of cases (mostly infants). *
The Samoan outbreak of measles involved the D8 genotype.
THEREFORE the D8 genotype must be deadlier than other strains **
THEREFORE the D8 genotype must be of recent origin.
THEREFORE the D8 genotype must have arisen under selection pressure from vaccination programs.
THEREFORE it was VACCINATION PROGRAMS that killed all the Samoan babies, rather than lethal advice from antivax gobshites.

I now await outbreaks of this new theory elsewhere in the antivaxosphere.

Just like every other previous outbreak in Samoan history.
** In other outbreaks featuring D8, it isn’t any deadlier.

I suspect that J L-W is test-driving a new product from the antivax Sophistry Factory, to spin away / capitalise on recent unfortunate events. I intuit his thought processes as follows:

I am frightened by what I believe is your dead-on accuracy.

Aluminum is the third most ubiquitous metal on the planet. We get it through the air we breath, the food we eat, the water we drink, etc.

Breast milk
0.04 milligrams per liter (mg/L)
Infant formula
0.225 mg/L
Soy-based formula
0.46 to 0.93 mg/L
Buffered aspirin
10 to 20 mg/tablet
Antacid
104-208 mg/tablet

“There appears to be a transporter that effluxes aluminium from the brain into blood. Aluminium distributes into the placenta, foetus, milk, hair, and can be quantified in all tissues and fluids. Greater than 95% of aluminium is eliminated by the kidney, probably by glomerular filtration. Less than 2% appears in bile. . . Aluminium clearance is characterized by multiple half-lives (t1⁄2), suggesting multiple compartments. The terminal t1⁄2 from the lung is ~ 100 days and from the brain and other soft tissues > 100 days.” Krewski D et al (2007). HUMAN HEALTH RISK ASSESSMENT FOR ALUMINIUM, ALUMINIUM OXIDE, AND ALUMINIUM HYDROXIDE. Journal of toxicology and environmental health. Part B, Critical reviews; 10(Suppl 1): 1–269.

Note that the above article gives probably all the routes one is exposed to aluminum. The main point is that it covers mechanisms by which the body eliminates various forms of aluminum, including half lives. So, when someone sums the trace amounts of aluminum in vaccines, they ignore the half lives.

@ Natalie White DECEMBER 21, 2019 AT 10:08 AM

You write: “Have you heard of pink disease? Mercury was used in teething powders up to the 1940s. So many were killed and permanently injured. I watched a documentary about it.”

Yep, pink disease was nasty; but what you fail to understand is that the teething powders which contained calomel, a form of mercury, alone much much higher dose than the minuscule amounts in vaccines, was used daily for months. In other words, infants were eventually exposed to MEGADOSES of mercury. I seldom use aspirin, except if really bad headache; but there are people who take it daily. While even daily aspirin, except for risk to stomach, are quite safe, if anyone was to swallow an entire bottle of aspirin it would be an extremely unpleasant death. I am a senior citizen, high fiber diet, and blood donor, so I take iron supplements. Iron poisoning was once the leading cause of death from medication overdose among children under age 6 in the United States. Iron poisoning is now on the decline. However, it remains a serious health risk for children.Among the initial signs of iron poisoning are nausea and abdominal pain. Vomiting blood can also occur. Iron poisoning can also lead to diarrhea and dehydration. Sometimes, too much iron causes stools to turn black and bloody. These symptoms usually develop within six hours.

What you fail to understand is what Paracelsus in the 15th Century said: “The Dose Makes The Poison.” Besides, except for flu vaccine, in the U.S. even trace amounts of mercury have been removed from vaccines since 2000. And one can get mercury-free flu vaccine for children.

I have seen antivaccinationists describe the Minamata Tragedy. A small village in Japan was located close to a factory that dumped tons of mercury in the bay where the villagers fished. The amounts of mercury ingested went through the roof.

I should point out that if one were to even consume a few gallons of water in a short time span, it too could be deadly. Ever heard of osmosis????

Typical of you and other antivaccinationists. I and others have clearly refuted your comments in previous exchanges, and in what is called a Gish Gallop, you just come up with something else, never even admitting you were wrong about your previous comments.

Thanks for picking that one off. I did see Ms White’s “question”, but as she’s already proven herself a bad actor I didn’t want to rise to the bait on a topic I’d have to research just to smack down half as well.

“I wonder what would happen if a person drank the contents of the vaccinations given on a “catch-up schedule”, like 8 vaccines in one visit.”

Or what would happen if a person soaked his feet in a bath containing the liquid from those vaccines, or used it as a hair tonic?*

Why haven’t these studies been done???!?!?!?

*or used it as a hair tonic _after_ bathing his feet in it? At the very least, he’d get more space on the bus.

@ Natalie White DECEMBER 22, 2019 AT 10:59 AM

You write: “So dumb that you keep making the comparison between ingested (eaten) aluminum and injected aluminum.”

Yep, one shouldn’t make the comparison because the uptake of aluminum by the intestines is far greater than intramuscularly. Try reading the article I referred to above. And I have lots more where that comes from.

Again, you just keep getting it wrong; but don’t ever admit it, just come up with something else.

@ Joel – Even ORAC admits the experts don’t know how aluminum works but by golly believe us it works! So, one can infer, the experts don’t know what else the aluminum is doing in the body. Does it just sit in the spot where it’s deposited like a good, little adjuvant?

The body sends cleaners, macrophages, to clean away foreign materials and proteins. Aluminum is a foreign substance. Lymph is involved in this process. Lymph is circulated to the lymph vessels and then drained into the right and left subclavian veins, where it enters the circulation. Do I need to review the circulatory system, or does everyone have a rudimentary understanding of how and where blood flows? I’ll tell ya’, it flows ALL OVER THE BODY….INCLUDING THE BRAIN.

My point about pink disease…experts have been wrong in the past but keep barreling through unable to admit their mistakes until the proof is so glaringly obvious that it can’t be denied. I am not 100% wrong. You and the pack are not 100% right.

So, dear sadistic child hater, where are those PubMed indexed studies that show it would be cheaper and safer for kids to skip getting the DTaP series and actually suffer from fevers, choking coughs, muscle spasms and a very real chance of actual death from diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis?

Do you think I would not notice your sadistic child hating behaviors of wanting kids to suffer because you are afraid on the third most common element on this planets crust? Do you also keep kids indoors and refuse to let them play in dirt because of aluminum? That is incredibly silly and actually abusive.

Well, Chris, maybe if they only stay on the sidewalk
I had to say that.
Old hands at RI will understand the joke.

But children will naturally stay on the sidewalk and avoid all dirt, at least according to the good old Thingy?

@ Natalie White

So, “100%” is your criteria. Well, I don’t know of anything that is “100%” right or wrong in medicine; but if we rely on this, we would return to the Dark Ages. And you mention “Macrophages.” Great. Yep, macrophages are the first immune cells to recognize foreign invaders and when they do they send out cytokines to the other immune cells, e.g., B-cells and T-cells that an invasion has begun. At the same time, as antigen presenting cells they take the invaders, break them into smaller recognizable parts called cognate antigens, travel to lymph nodes where B-cells and T-cells also visit. So, within a couple of hours, the B-cells and T-cells are presented with the cognate antigens and with cytokines, protein messengers, that alert them. The cytokines also get them to react more strongly if they continue to come from the periphery. So, what happens with a vaccine adjuvanted with aluminum? Using less of the actual killed microbe, the aluminum, in such minuscule quantities that it is HARMLESS, also is recognized by the macrophages, so they keep sending the cytokines. Do we know everything about how the immune system works? Nope. Do we know everything about anything? Nope.

So, as usual, you are full of … But thank you for emphasizing the “100%” Yep, we should end ALL modern medicine because we don’t know 100% of anything. A colleague recently died, age 84. He was a great guy; but chain smoker. Well, despite being a chain smoker, he lived almost six years more than the average life-expectancy for white males in U.S. So, I guess smoking isn’t all that bad? You really are an idiot, just keep trying, despite lack of understanding. In your case your level of understanding is towards 0.

And despite what you choose to believe, our level of understanding of the immune system, though NOT 100% is quite good, so we do know a lot about how vaccines work.

@ Natalie White

As for Pink Disease, you really are a moron. As I pointed out the teething power contained calomel, a form of mercury, and the amount was much much higher, especially given teething powder was often used for quite some time, than the trace amounts of mercury in all the vaccines combined. And I also pointed out that we get far more mercury from the environment, including food, and that absorption of it in the intestines is far greater than intramuscularly.

Are you incapable of reading and understanding anything? Or, does your pre-determined delusional belief system filter what you read, that is, you don’t really see what is on the page before you?

Do I need to review the circulatory system, or does everyone have a rudimentary understanding of how and where blood flows? I’ll tell ya’, it flows ALL OVER THE BODY….INCLUDING THE BRAIN.

You need a rudimentary understanding of many things to not sound this ignorant. Read up on some aluminium pharmacokinetics and how it moves around the body, tissues of deposition and excretion and then come back. No, this is nothing like Pink’s Disease FFS.

For a while, anti-vaxxers were comparing the “damage” from vaccines to Minamata Disease. Also autism is encephalitis. Or Alzheimer’s Lite.
SRSLY

Even ORAC [sic] admits the experts don’t know how aluminum works but by golly believe us it works!

How do you feel about quantum mechanics, Natalie?

@ Narad – An unexpected question and you’ve piqued my curiosity. I’m still coming down from Saturnalia festivities so I’ll dance with you. You asked, “How do you feel about quantum mechanics, Natalie?”

I find Fibonacci numbers and sacred geometry more interesting and tangible than quantum theory. However, Max Planck is quotable – “Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature. And that is because, in the last analysis, we ourselves are a part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.”

Quid pro quo – Why did you ask me about QM and/or can you get me this? https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/143/4/e20183578

Sacred geometry? Sounds hyperbolic.

Speaking of Dr. Plotkin, if someone in your family or yourself had contact with a bat would you get the modern rabies vaccine or just let nature take its course? See: https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/exposure/animals/wildlife_reservoirs.html
And: https://www.cdc.gov/rabies/bats/contact/index.html

And still, where are those PubMed indexed studies that show it would be cheaper and safer for kids to skip getting the DTaP series and actually suffer from fevers, choking coughs, muscle spasms and a very real chance of actual death from diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis?

In other anti-vax news….

It’s the holiday season: so how do anti-vaxxers spread the cheer?

Why they gather around a vaccine-supporting governor’s home and hold an evening vigil! ( see AoA, today; Fearless Parent website).Louise Kuo Habakus was there. Remember her?
NJ’s governor, Phil Murphy**, is a wealthy man who may actually still live in his own home, not a state residence. If so, that is even worse. Kuo Habakus has also protested a musician/ celebrity*** who lived near her when he sponsored a fundraiser for another governor who supported vaccines. She’s been rather quiet. I haven’t seen this story anywhere else but AoA/ FP

** seems to be the antithesis of Trump: if Trump mandates something, he opposes it. My SO went to hear him speak nearby discussing extremism and conspiracy mongering on the internet- because he was a performer at Harvard, he likes to throw in a little song , so he did.
*** Jon Bon Jovi for Jon Corzine

@ Natalie White

“Until recently, aluminum hydroxide-based adjuvants were known to preferentially prime Th2-type immune responses. However, results of more recent studies show that depending on the vaccination route, aluminum hydroxide-based adjuvants can enhance both Th1 as well as Th2 cellular responses.” From He et al (2015 Feb). Advances in aluminum hydroxide-based adjuvant research and its mechanism. Human Vaccines & Immunotherapeutics; 11(2): 477-488

“These results indicate that aluminum-containing adjuvants activate DCs and influence their ability to direct TH1 and TH2 responses through the secretion of IL-1 and IL-18.” From Sokolovska et al (2007). Activation of dendritic cells and induction of CD4+ T cell differentiation by aluminum-containing adjuvants. Vaccine; 25: 4575-4585.

You probably don’t know that Dendritic Cells (DC) are antigen-presenting cells and they receive stimulation from, among others, macrophages. And, as I mentioned, T-cells and B-cells meet up with antigen-presenting cells at lymph nodes, etc.

And a review of total aluminum in body, both from vaccines and environment, concluded: “Using these updated parameters we found that the body burden of aluminum from vaccines and diet throughout an infant’s first year of life is significantly less than the corresponding safe body burden of aluminum. From Mitkus et al (2011). Updated aluminum pharmacokinetics following infant exposures through diet and vaccination. Vaccine; 29: 9538-9543.

I should also mention that I have almost 150 peer-reviewed journal articles and textbook chapter on aluminum under one folder on my computer and have either read or skimmed most of them

I am NOT an immunologist; but I have read and re-read three undergraduate textbooks, almost all articles over 30 years in Scientific American, audited courses, attended seminars, and worked with immunologists. Since the subject can be quite complex and knowledge ever-growing, if not something I am confident on, found in textbooks and/or articles I possess, I phone or e-mail my colleagues for help. In fact, though colleagues often contact me on epidemiological, biostatistical, or behavioral science issues, which I do have extensive education and experience, even on these subjects I often contact colleagues. As opposed to you and other antivaccinationists who see the world in black and white, 100%, who are certain they are right, I consider myself a reasonably intelligent person with an extensive education and continuous reading; but not infallible, not with god-like certainty.

You mention that science has been wrong in the past and that is absolutely correct; but science is self-corrective and because there are more scientists today than ever before and more journals, more meetings, etc. the speed with which errors are corrected has increased as well. However, with vaccines, we have literally centuries of data as well as events around the world. We know how following vaccines rates of vaccine-preventable diseases plunged. In fact, with polio, WHO, requiring lab confirmations, found polio disappear in developing nations after vaccine campaign. Nothing else could explain this, not better sanitation, not better nutrition, nothing. And if one does a search of the National Library of Medicine’s online database PubMed using “Vaccine AND Safety” one gets almost 20,000 papers/journal articles. Add “Placebo” or “Measles” etc, one gets quite a few hits. And they are from studies round the world, e.g., Sweden, Denmark, UK, Canada, Australia, and, of course the United States. Each representing different cultures, different political systems, different education systems, different health care systems; yet the overwhelming majority of studies find vaccines effective (not 100%) and risk of serious adverse events rare (but not zero), simply the benefit clearly outweighs the risk. And these studies around the world have also found NO association with Autism. And each of the nations give the MMR vaccine and all the researchers I know give it to their own kids. Do you really believe that so many researchers, so may nations, would give vaccines to kids, knowing as you claim the risks, even to the extent of sacrificing their own children, all to further the interests of Big Pharma? Absurd! However, in psychology there is a classic defense mechanism called projection where someone denies some negative aspect of themselves by projecting it on to others. So, I ask, what would it take for you to sell out, to endanger others?

And there will always be a few “researchers” who will find contradictory findings. Despite tons of research on race and IQ, there are still researchers who claim lower IQs for darker races. I could give you suggestions for reading on this subject; but I’m sure you wouldn’t.

“I could give you suggestions for reading on this subject; but I’m sure you wouldn’t.”

If she reads it she will not comprehend it.

If she reads and comprehends it she will lie about it.

If she reads and comprehends it and is truthful she will ignore it.

Ergo she doesn’t need to read it.

I could write a bot that does this. It shouldn’t take long.

I could write a bot that does this. It shouldn’t take long.

Dadadodo worked pretty well with Th1Th2, but it needed a lot of maintenance, particularly keeping the corpus to a manageable size.

Aluminum-containing vaccines have not been studied in relation to autism. Only MMR and thimerosal have been studied. There are a few other papers on number of antigens, but these dont tell us anything about aluminum adjuvant and autism.

Aluminum-containing vaccines have not been studied in relation to autism.

What? You’re not going to list and defend Mold, Exley et al.’s trip down despicable laboratory methods lane?

In other anti-vax news…

( MSN, ABC) Measles have been reported in travellers at 5 US airports : Chicago O’Hare, Richmond, VA, Austin, TX, Denver** and LA.
Anti-vax fear mongering- the gift that keeps on giving.

** -btw- while Denver International is NOT the hdqtrs of the Illuminati, it is rather un-artfully designed.

ONE CORRECTION.

What I wrote previously how antigen-presenting cells gobble up microbes, including killed and attenuated in vaccines, and get an extra boost, stimulation, from aluminum is correct; but it is Dendritic Cells that then go to lymph nodes to activate T-cells. Macrophages stay out in the battle zone. When the T-cells arrive, they have to be told the battle is still on, so that’s what Macrophages do, they re-present the chopped up, recognizable piece of the invader. I wrote previous it was the Macrophages that went to the lymph nodes. Oh well, the principle was correct.

After I wrote the comment, I then thought, maybe I should double check, so pulled out a couple books. Probably should have pulled them out first and if I were writing a paper I would not only have double and triple checked; but sent versions to several colleagues. I sometimes just get so angry at people like Natalie White who ignore what someone writes, who don’t really care because they know they are right, and just continue with Gish Gallops of more bogus arguments, that I respond too hastily. I guess, I’m only human? ET phone home???

@ Joel A. Harrison

Careful, you are going to confuse our antivaxer visitors by not giving a perfect, 100% correct explanation. 🙂
(sincerely, please keep posting; you already have given me plenty to improve/correct my own knowledge)

Re: dendritic cells, macrophages and other APCs (antigen-presenting cells)
When I was in school, my teachers mostly talked about monocytes/macrophages (as the lessons were focused on blood cells/peripheric lymph cells). Later in university, I was introduced to the concept that other APCs exist, and even more recently, that there are subtypes which are tissue-specific.
Just last year, wasn’t a new type of dendritic cell found in the brain?
Things were refined a lot since my apprentissage years. Or maybe our teachers tried to keep the lessons simple for an introductory course on immunology.
Well, or at that time I didn’t catch all the details. As you say, we are only humans.

Actually, one reason I (wrongly) want to put macrophages everywhere as APC is because of the little educational cartoon I mentioned already, “Il était une fois la vie”. It’s from the 80’s, so now definitely outdated, and the authors did have to keep things simple, to avoid saturating their audience.

Re: Nathalie and her macrophage gambit
She was channeling a study by some antivax cranks about how the macrophages would pick up the aluminium salts on the vaccination site and then go dump it inside the brain.
I don’t see a single reason why peripheral macrophages/APCs loaded with things they just phagocyted would regularly decide to go inside the brain, and then set their load free there. “Security breach” doesn’t start to cover how wrong such a behavior would be. Seems to me a heck of a fail of evolutionary selection.
Or to put it more simply: from all the things we know, that’s not how immune cells work.

It it possible Ms White’s blood-brain barrier is made out of concrete? That could explain how oxygen does not appear to reach it.

I agree with Orac.

This paper by Lyons-weiler et al. Is fatally flawed because it assumes 100% of the adjuvant dissolves in body fluids and has kinetics like IV-injected, water soluble aluminum.

The assumption of instantaneous bioavailability is clearly very wrong. It is not even a reasonable starting point for understanding aluminum adjuvant toxicity. All it does is confuse and mislead people-the antivax especially-about the effects of aluminum adjuvant.

After injection, aluminum adjuvant dissolves slightly, resulting in two distinct chemical components: Al3+ ions and al adjuvant solid particles. They each have different kinetics and toxicity and must be analyzed separately.

The kinetics of al adjuvant are mediated by macrophage trafficking, and so is affected by inflammation. The kinetics of al adjuvant particles is affected by MCP-1.

The toxicity of al adjuvant is almost certainly mediated by its adjuvant properties, i.e. the fact it stimulates inflammation.

@ Science Mom,

what is the resulting pathology

Are you fucking serious? Sorry but wow; just wow. Please tell me you are being obtuse in order to bait Vaccine Papers?

For all/any environmental exposures:

“Overexposure to aluminum may cause brain damage (encephalopathy).”

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/heavy-metal-poisoning/

For aluminum ingestion:

“In humans, the principal route of entry of aluminum is the ingestion of food or water containing aluminum. Oral bioavailability of aluminum is estimated to be <1%.21 Aluminum accumulates in the skeletal system and the brain, and a link with diseases such as osteomalacia and encephalopathy, Alzheimer and Parkinson’s diseases have been reported.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3998638/

Now, just guessing here as to the ‘resulting pathology’ from an aluminum adjuvant that works by permeating the blood-brain-barrier for a heightened immune response … but it’s at least a GOOD guess that an aluminum adjuvant used in a person … ESPECIALLY a person with certain genetic cytokine regulating variants; would result in BRAIN DAMAGE & it’s neurological sequelae.

Yes, yes, Christine, and because a lot of mosquitoes weigh a pound you might suffer a concussion if one lands on your head.

an aluminum adjuvant that works by permeating the blood-brain-barrier for a heightened immune response

I am usually good at translating from Gibberish into English, but this is just a random concatenation of Worship Words.

ESPECIALLY a person with certain genetic cytokine regulating variants; would result in BRAIN DAMAGE & it’s neurological sequelae.

Cue “Earache, My Eye.”

. James Lyons-Weiler was actually a legitimate scientist before he turned to antivaccine pseudoscience

How convenient. Anytime an actual scientist discovers something negative about vaccines that makes them “antivaccine”.

Reminds me of how Big Tobacco first called the epidemiology that correlated smoking to lung cancer ‘Junk Science’ (YES; that term was actually coined by Phillip Morris, RJ Reynolds, et al) . And called those who invoked those studies as first ‘anti-tobacco’ & then later; ‘anti-choice’ or ‘anti-freedom’. Lol.

Does it not bother the pro-vaccine’ for their MO to run so parallel to Big Tobacco’s?

As a ‘not a scientist’ I can’t debate the rather rude deconstruction of already peer-reviewed research.

But as a former pro vax daughter of an ‘antivax’ mother who DID happen to be a research scientist; I do recall the uncomfortable moment my autistic child’s lab results confirmed his toxic levels of aluminum. I had spent weeks dreading the results to return because I thought ‘If his results show high mercury levels; I might have to apologize to Mom & admit that she might be on to something … Please don’t let it be high in mercury!’

And his mercury level came back WNL! But his Aluminum level was literally one of the highest levels the lab had ever resulted. And like your typical uneducated pro-vaxxer in 2006; I didn’t KNOW at the time that aluminum was used in vaccines! So I kind of shrugged it off with a ‘huh? that’s weird’ thought.

There was a footnote on his results about the fact that the significance of high aluminum was unknown at the time but that in the absence of the status of ‘dialysis-dependent’; it was consistently found as correlated with Autism & Alzheimer’s.

So I was spared the painful cognitive dissonance for a few more months but it only served to make it so much worse when I learned that aluminum adjuvants were used in vaccines & that the fact that they had ‘caught up’ the vaccines he had missed when he had strep throat, with his scheduled immunizations at that ‘well-baby’ visit; that it had almost doubled the amount of aluminum adjuvant a one-year old would normally have received.

LOL; ‘Well-Baby’ visit. More like; ‘The Last Day Your Baby Will Be Well’ visit.

A. Dr. Lyons-Weiler described vaccines as filthy toxic sludge. He’s described as antivaccine based on very antivaccine statements.

Not the shoddy science alone.

B. There are labs that specialize in giving high results to autism parents. The Omnibus Autism Proceedings discusses that, and some of these methods these labs use to get those results and mislead parents.

Given the minuscule amount of aluminum salts (a compound, not elemental aluminum) contained in some vaccines, the fact that you got those test results probably means your child was digesting aluminum foil.

You’re a kook.

To pile on:

As a ‘not a scientist’

Christine pretends to be a nurse. I could accept the idea that nurse training is so full of things, the fact that some vaccines contain aluminium salts could be overlooked or forgotten.
I have a lot more troubles with a nurse given a lab result and not being able to go from blood concentration to quantity in the full volume of blood. And then correlate it to the amount of aluminium in vaccines.
(yes, it’s leaving aside all the stuff outside of the blood. But if the amount in blood is already five times – or 20 times – the amount in the given vaccines… Yeah, better check your roll of aluminium foil)
The actual amount of aluminium element, mind you. One microgramme of aluminium oxide, as the name implies, has less than one microgramme of pure aluminium.

Christine was promoting the fabrication that measles vaccines were delivered to Samoa before the measles outbreak there, and therefore were the cause of the outbreak.

Her recollections cannot be trusted on anything.

And his mercury level came back WNL! But his Aluminum level was literally one of the highest levels the lab had ever resulted.

Uh huh, sure they did. Were you feeding the kid nothing but Mylanta for weeks?

As a ‘not a scientist’ I can’t debate the rather rude deconstruction of already peer-reviewed research.

Then how can you call it a rude deconstruction? Do you even know who the “peer reviewers” were?

“I do recall the uncomfortable moment my autistic child’s lab results confirmed his toxic levels of aluminum.”

Which lab? What tests? The huge and very profitable altmed service industry is very good at making their “tests” return the results they want. (e.g. Forced chelating prior to sampling, which is unethical, dangerous, and utterly dishonest.)

“it had almost doubled the amount of aluminum adjuvant”

2x miniscule is still miniscule. Unless one dose is already on the threshold of toxicity, a second dose is not going to make a difference. Even then, there’s a reason real dose-response discussions use magnitudes.

Folks here weren’t born yesterday. Your embarrassingly amateur scare language makes you sound like a hysterical know-nothing, spooked at every shadow even as you remain willfully blind to the real monster in the room. You’re either a rube or you’re trying to play us for one. The ruse itself is as transparent as glass. Do better.

You must keep in mind that everything about her and hers, according to her claims, falls at least 3 or 4 sigma one side or the other from the mean.

@ Chris – Chris asks – “Speaking of Dr. Plotkin, if someone in your family or yourself had contact with a bat would you get the modern rabies vaccine or just let nature take its course?” First off, I avoid contact with bats.

However, once when on a job, I was bit by a dog…no puncture, but he broke/scratched the skin. The owner assured me the dog was up to date on rabies vax but I didn’t ask for proof. I bled it and washed it aggressively with soap and water. The doc-in-a-box gave me an rx for a prophylactic ABX. I told her I would only take the ABX if the wound started to look infected which didn’t happen. She also wanted to jab me with a TDaP which I refused. If there had been a puncture wound, I would have opted for more medical intervention. I survived with no problems. I would handle the bat scenario similarly dependent on the injury. My body, my choice.

Do I need to tell you the difference between a wild bat and a domesticated dog that was up to date on its vaccination. Plus must a I tell you that there is a huge difference between virus and bacteria, and that the “ABX” would have done nothing for rabies from a bat bite.

Also, when you do start to show signs of a rabies infection from a week to over a month after the bite: that the rabies series will do nothing.

So if you were in contact with a bat, you would do nothing and agree to die. That is your body, your choice. Just do not do that for any child in your care, because that is just pure abuse. Just like letting any child be vulnerable to several diseases like measles, mumps, diphtheria and tetanus.

So not only are you a sadistic child hater one, you are a totally ignorant sadist.

Do remember to thank you responsible neighbors for protecting your kids by vaccination their families. Though that does not protect any of you from tetanus nor rabies.

@ Chris – Well, since you insist on cutting in and being the ultimate party pooper….

You seem to be a rather fearful and anxious person. You realize that not every bat has rabies, in fact, it’s pretty rare. A downed bat or a bat seen during the day is most likely a sick/injured bat.

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I stated any further medical intervention would be dependent on the injury. If able to catch the bat and have it tested, etc…I didn’t go into explicit detail ‘cuz I have a life. And yes, I know the difference between a virus and bacteria.

Looks like rabies prophylaxis and/or treatment can be quite pricey, a 400% increase in the last decade. https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/news/20180220/the-high-cost-of-surviving-rabies

You and the pack accuse me of black and white thinking, but you’ve got me beat! I hope you can get out today and go for a walk, stretch, move around! In addition to widening and flattening your ass, are you aware prolonged sitting can also cause blood clots aka a deep vein thrombosis? https://inside.mountsinai.org/blog/can-i-get-a-blood-clot-from-sitting-at-my-computer/

I am not here for your entertainment, you are the one who insists on being a troll. What I am doing is pointing out your callous disregard for evidence and since you think the cost of medicine is an indicator of greed. Actually it is an indication of the idiocy of health insurance and pharmaceutical regulation in the United States of America.

If you have an issue with the cost of a drug or vaccine bring it up with your Congress Critter, do not use it as a way to tell us “vaccines are bad.” Rabies is without treatment is 99% fatal. All the more reason you should vote for a rational health care system in the USA.

Since you seem to be willing to die or let a child in your care die because you do not like the man who helped develop the vaccine, any pharmaceutical company and the cost of the vaccine…. you have again proven you are a sadistic child hater who loves to see kids suffer from diseases.

You are the one who has to live with that. And you are certainly not the one to give advice on how someone spends their time.

@ Chris:

Do you notice the embedded insult that implies you are overweight and endangered by DVT?
From someone who doesn’t know you and has never seen you or your image
This illustrates a trend concerning insults to women ( see Gilligan) – insult their appearance when you can’t answer their salient points.
There’s an analogous method used by woo-meisters: if your don’t follow their protocols, you must be unattractive, overweight, disabled by chronic illness and on the way to the grave ( see PRN). Adams has a few choice comments about those who promote SBM: they’re fat, eat “poisonous” foods etc. Lovely concern for people.

Notice also that they can’t answer your questions about vaccine/ illness comparisons or mine about early indicators of ASDs? Or anything Orac submits?

re rabies:
my friends from India told a story about the woman, then age 18 and a student in Bangalore, being bite by a dog and her fiancé’s frantic search for the animal so she could avoid treatment: he found it!

Of course I did. Especially since my contributions on this thread have been limited, mostly directed towards her ridiculous comments. It is amazing that she does see the rage I have towards sadistic child haters who want kids to suffer, especially after their behavior as dozens of small children were being buried in Samoa.

In addition to widening and flattening your ass

So… you comment while at the gym? C’mon, pics or it didn’t happen.

@ Chris – It’s sad his dad is a dumbass who brought the bat home from work. They are from Florida so I don’t expect a whole lot of common sense.

Well, since you insist on cutting in and being the ultimate party pooper

https:/www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc2iLAubras

“Does it not bother the pro-vaccine’ for their MO to run so parallel to Big Tobacco’s?”

You’ve got that backwards.

The role of tobacco in causing human disease was elucidated by competent researchers and followed by united efforts by physicians, public health officials and health organizations to spread awareness and support laws to mitigate the threat. This occurred despite loud protests from a relatively small contingent of deniers, some of whom were profiting financially from smoking.

The role of vaccination in preventing and mitigating the consequences of infectious disease has been promoted by similar individuals and groups, who have largely succeeded in spreading awareness of the value of vaccines and have supported laws to mitigate the threat of vaccine refusal for non-medical reasons. A loud but small minority continues to attack this effort and engage in denial, partly for financial motives (sales of books, lectures, personal consults, offering supplements and treatments for “vaccine injury” etc.).

So there is a parallel – but it’s between Big Tobacco and antivaxers.

@ Science Mom, Dorit Reiss, Dangerous Bacon:

My brilliant friends:
although you produce excellent responses to these commenters, they will never learn. They are beyond education: they need something else. Your work is appreciated and will help enlighten other readers. These outliers however are unable to perceive that that which they espouse are not avenues pursued by standard researchers anywhere or taught in accredited universities: in the English-speaking world alone ( not equal to The World) there are thousands of universities where SBM is taught YET where do we find instructors/ professors who teach Wakefield ( except as a bad example), autism/ “brain damage” caused by vaccines or other gems of anti-vax “science”?

As they say on Wikipedia Talk: this is fringe territory. If these scoffers were to present their theories in an undergraduate class at any university ( not an alt med blog or anti-vax facebook page), they would be laughed out of the room. There are parallels in research about SMI/ Oncology: altie theories and cures but respectable researchers disregard them because they were ruled out decades ago ( e.g. SMI can be treated with B vitamins or cancer with vitamin C). No one is talking about these ideas except for quacks and those who sell vitamins.

Since Wakefield’s fraud, consolidating research that shows:
— no association between vaccination and autism ( see Jain et al 2015; many other studies)
— autism is primarily genetic ( see Sparks; others)
— autism begins in utero ( see Courchesne; others)
— there are MULTIPLE early indicators prior to most vaccines ( brain waves, gaze, interactions, facial proportions etc)
which can be used to identify autism early so that interventions can begin.

No anti-vax proselytiser ever discusses these studies- I wonder why?

Because it’s not about autism and it’s not about children; it’s about THEM?

I mean, there are plenty parents of autistic children who aren’t raging lunatics, who love their kids for who they are and raise them well. So what makes these movement AVers different to them? There’s your wedge. Don’t let AVers use their own kids as battering rams, and then see what’s left.

Unfortunately, we hear the loudmouths.
I am tired of stories about their kids’ off-the-charts perfection, beauty, disability, problems, goodness- it’s all irrelevant- even if true- because it is shared in order to showcase the parent’s ( mostly mother’s) position as the most devoted parent EVER! I especially dislike when a mother talks about more private issues ( re cleanliness, toilet issues, menstruation concerns, educational inabilities) in a PUBLIC FORUM. The child becomes a prop for illustrating parental sacrifice .
Fortunately for us: AV mothers like this must be a small number because:
— states with non-medical exemptions rarely involve more than 4-5% of students ( maybe Oregon slightly more)
— anti-vaxxers may get a few hundred at rallies in CA and NJ ( 1000+ at a Monsey, NY event) but most of them aren’t very active on the net.
— of all the sites, twitter accounts I survey, it’s rare to find anything over 50K except for Cook’s maybe. Many of the well known activists get a few thousand on twitter.
A pair of flashy socks or a new shampoo can get that easily.

Just to add to your points, to get the several hundreds (maybe up to two thousand) in NJ, MA and CA they put out a national call.

There were activists from multiple states in each. The crowd did not reflect a local effort.

And that’s what their national effort netted.

@ Dorit Reiss:

I’ve wondered about this:
we see anti-vax advocates travel across the country. When I do so, I book flights 9-10 months in advance. Wouldn’t a flight at short notice, as I assume most of these, are cost a lot? ** Yet we see Californians in NY/NJ and New Yorkers in California? Plus they have to stay in hotels ( NY hotels anyone when they went to Harlem?)
Not anyone has an expense account like Del.

** I’ll look.

Air travel costs:
a week from today to SF- the cheapest is 700 USD for January
vs dates in advance starting at 263. I got 375 for July

A shampoo company can get 185K followers on twitter but tireless, freedom fighters who dedicate their lives to saving children’s brains?
Not so much, if you look at AoA’s, TMR’s, Children’s Health Defense, various anti-vax luminaries.

@ Chris spews – “I am not here for your entertainment” I agree. You’re just annoying like Duhnice.

Chris says, “If you have an issue with the cost of a drug or vaccine bring it up with your Congress Critter.” We try but a hard task due to pharmas heavy influence through lobbyists and campaign donations in the U.S.

Chris lies, “do not use it as a way to tell us “vaccines are bad.” I’ve never said vaccines are bad. Again, my point is not all children/people can handle ALL the recommended vaccinations. Some of us don’t want our children or ourselves to be part of the experiment anymore.

Chris lies again, “Since you seem to be willing to die or let a child in your care die because you do not like the man who helped develop the vaccine” I don’t know the man, therefore, hard to say whether or not I “like” him…so dumb. I like that he is concerned about safety. I read an email from Dr. Plotkin to Prof. REI$$ where he agreed with RFK, Jr. that more safety testing needed to be done. I can find it later since I’m at my link limit.

Part I was the deposition. Part II is this: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2019/03/04/peds.2018-3578 Why are you and the pack so reluctant to share? Give the man a chance to redeem himself. Don’t you want to do your part and spread the gospel of vaccinology?

There is also this: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/pdf/whitepapersafety_web.pdf Updates anyone?

I am not paying $25 to read that paper, nor to give it to you. You are welcome to pay for it yourself, because we are under no obligation to any sadistic child hater who promotes children getting diseases that cause pneumonia, seizures, permanent disability and even death.

@ Chris

I am not paying $25 to read that paper

If the article is indexed with a DOI, there is some chance the paywall could be bypassed. Or so Alexandra Elbakyan told me.
(use this power with responsibility; may not be available in the US)

It doesn’t matter, I have no interest in reading the whole thing. She begged Narad to buy her access to that paper, and for some reason she also assumed I had access. She is just trying to get something for nothing, and seemed baffled that we would not get it for her.

@ Chris

Oh, I was merely alluding to the availability of a tool. People use it if they want.
I felt (a bit) bad when another visitor paid $7 to have full access to an article while I managed to obtain it for free thanks to knowing people in academia. So I’m just taking the occasion to spread the word.
While you courteously read what I wrote and kindly answered to it, I couldn’t help noticing that our critic didn’t read it. Or decided not to make use of this tool.

My hint isn’t that difficult to understand. For people whose motto is “do you own research”…

I doubt she knows anyone in academia. I, myself, could walk the two kilometers to the medical school by the light rail station and use their library. They have login stations for the general public to access medical journals. But it seems she cannot be bothered to go to her local college campus with a medical school, so she resorts to begging.

It was not my goal, but I will take it as a point of pride. She needs to be reminded she is a sadistic child hater who loves to see kids suffer from vaccine preventable diseases. Apparently she thinks rabies from bat bites should only be treated by letting nature take its course. The reasons being are that Dr. Plotkin was involved and the shots are expensive.

Absolutely no comment on how that thinking is pretty much fatal. Other than she got bit once by a dog that been vaccinated by rabies. Plus she was offered antibiotics, which she refused. Um, okay…the antibiotics were for a potential bacterial infection, more likely pneumonia but also including tetanus (even though antibiotics do nothing for the tetanospasmin).

Plus she was offered antibiotics, which she refused

As she said, her body, her choice. I can accept that.
However, I would not be impressed if she then pull a David Stephan – who complained that “mainstream” healthcare wasn’t able to save his boy when they finally send him to an hospital, after more than three weeks of medical neglect.

And here is a point she and other AVers keep willfully missing: their children are not an appendage of their body. Their children are their captive audience.
Another tedious matter is their refusal to reconsider their position when presented with facts no fitting their narrative. “my body my choice” is a nice principle, but if the choice is build on false premises…
Still waiting for any of our special visitors to recognize that Samoa is what they wanted.

Well, it must be quite a problem for scoffers when Chris, Orac, others or I ask questions they don’t have an answer for :
— documenting when vaccines cause more illness/ costs than the illness they prevent
— studies show no relationship between vaccines and autism
— there are many early indicators of ASDs prior to vaccines
— studies of prenatal development of ASDs
— studies of genetics

For all their shrieking, not one of them provides responses. Are all of those fixed? Katie Wright calls research into genetics and gaze “a waste” : I wonder why that is?

Because the only thing those parasites have is ignorance. Notice how Ms. White is reduced to just insults and begging folks to buy her a $25 journal article.

@ Chris,

That article was pure propaganda & a work of fiction.

You should talk to actual Samoans in Samoa & see what they are saying. I could link you to some pages but you would probably have them arrested for speaking the truth, because that is actually happening right now to actual Samoans in Samoa.

Way to gather an entire country into your web. They ARE accusing people of being ‘sadistic child haters’ with their children’s blood on their hands & that would be:

Bill Gates
Dick Pan
Merck
Tuilaepa Lupesoliai Neioti Aiono Sailele Malielegaoi … for turning his back on his people by accepting ‘blood money’ donations (their words not mine) in return for allowing mandatory immunization laws encouraged by well, Dick Pan et al.

Not to mention the stupid white people in America & the UK who are saying that their beliefs were influenced by prominent antivaxxers. That’s racist. You are implying that they were too stupid & backwards to know on their own how dangerous vaccines are & they were susceptible to exploitation of antivaxxers; all named who happen to be white people.

They hate vaccines even more now. They call this outbreak the ‘Monster-Made Epidemic’. Did you even know that? Guess who the monsters are?

I suspect the few people you are hearing from are not exactly representative of the general population, and picked carefully for making claims that fit what you want to believe. As to the rest, your leaders – and several New Zealanders – work hard to mislead people in Samoa. Of course there were also local misleaders, like the now arrested coconut farmer that convinced parents not to take children to hospital until it was too late and not to vaccinate their children. I would agree most of the harm was not from your leaders, but they certainly had the intent and made the effort to contribute to it.

80 people are dead, most young children. By a vaccine preventable disease. Because of low vaccine rates.

It’s not the people who want the rest of the population protected who are the monsters.

“That article was pure propaganda & a work of fiction.”

So the pictures of the small coffins were all fabricated. You are a cold heartless sadistic child hater who loves to see kids suffer from high fevers, pneumonia, encephalitis, permanent neurological injury and death. Yes, the tally is now up to 81 deaths: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/118482464/samoa-measles-outbreak-death-toll-rises-to-81-over-christmas

Also the idiot that was arrested had broke curfew and was trying to actively interfere with the treatment of very sick children. You, him and your other sadistic disease promoting heroes all have blood on your hands.

I guess this is all lies: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/measles-in-samoa/

Ms. Kincaid I have made it a point to not engage with you anymore. I tried to help, but it is not worth the effort. Because all you do is lie, whine and try to manipulate with this “oh, poor me!” persona. It does not work on me anymore, and I shall now continue ignoring you. I very much dislike those who want kids to suffer from vaccine preventable diseases.

You should talk to actual Samoans in Samoa & see what they are saying. I could link you to some pages but you would probably have them arrested for speaking the truth, because that is actually happening right now to actual Samoans in Samoa.

Christine expects us to believe that Chris has the authority to have people arrested in Samoa, and that is why she refuses to present any of the evidence that would support her claims.
The other possibility is that she is an obnoxious fabulist who lies as regularly as she breaths.

[sarcasm]Who dares to doubt my power!?[/sarcasm] 😉

In seriousness, she has dived into a deep delusional rabbit hole of conspiracy mongering. I suggest she be ignored, and just hope her adult children find a way to help their mother.

They hate vaccines even more now. They call this outbreak the ‘Monster-Made Epidemic’. Did you even know that?

Who are “They” here? Leprechauns? “Voices in my head” are not my favourite citational standard.

Who are “They” here? Leprechauns? “Voices in my head” are not my favourite citational standard.

The vaccines are coming from inside the house.

Got it thanks to a friend from Kazakhstan. Just to test my hint, of course.

Interesting article. Dr Plotkin relates how he was grilled during 10 hours at a trial by a lawyer specialized in vaccine “injuries” (my quotes).
The table in the article indicates the main questions Dr Plotkin was asked.
I will spare you the suspense and the expense, it was the usual suspects. You could fill in your antivaccine bingo card.
Dr Plotkin’s advice is to come prepared, with a list of articles on safety.
He is also bemoaning that package inserts are misleading and incomplete. It is not said enough that post-vaccination follow-up is a lot longer than a few days, or that on-the-market vaccines went through safety studies and have good safety record, both pre- and post-marketing.
He is also very politely saying that “It would help if organizations such as the American Academy of Pediatrics” could be a bit more active.

That is pretty much what I suspected. I never did understand why Dr. Plotkin was the bad guy in the anti-vaxers’ eyes, but not the two lawyers who grilled him for ten hours.

By the way, the judge was not swayed by that disposition nor the testimony of their “expert” witness Toni Bark, nor were the appeals court: https://law.justia.com/cases/michigan/court-of-appeals-unpublished/2019/347022.html

First and almost last paragraph from the downloaded pdf of the ruling:

In this child custody dispute, plaintiff appeals as of right the trial court’s opinion and order, following an evidentiary hearing, in which the trial court (1)ordered the mandatory vaccination of the parties’ minor child,(2) ordered the parties to select a new, mutually agreeable pediatrician for the child, and (3) modified defendant’s parenting time. We affirm, but remand for the limited purpose of allowing the trial court to confirm what vaccinations are now recommended for the minor child by her pediatrician before the child begins the course of vaccinations.

….

We conclude that the trial court did not err by (1) finding that it was within the minor child’s best interests to be vaccinated, and ordering that she be vaccinated in accordance with state recommendations, (2) ordering the parties to select a new, mutually agreeable pediatrician for the child, and (3) modifying defendant’s parenting time. Accordingly, we affirm the trial court’s order, but remand for further proceedings consistent with our instructions in Section IV(B)(3) of this opinion. Affirmed and remanded for further proceedings consistent with this opinion. We do not retain jurisdiction.

Also, the last part of Section IV(B)(3) says:

Once the trial court receives such documentation from the child’s pediatrician, within 7 days the court shall enter an order directing that the child be vaccinated in conformance with the pediatrician’s recommendations, and the trial court’s order should further provide that the course of vaccination must begin within 21 days o fthe trial court’s order.

@ Athaic – Happy New Year and thank you for summarizing the article. It’s sad you and the pack continue to downplay/refuse that adverse events/injuries can and do happen from vaccination. Yes, I know, it is a rare event, one in a million we’re assured but personal experience changes perspective. Good day and good health.

“It’s sad you and the pack continue to downplay/refuse that adverse events/injuries can and do happen from vaccination.”

Except no one says that. We know there are some adverse events and injuries, but they are rare. There is no reason to report a sore arm. Also autism is not a “vaccine injury”, it is a collective name for lots of various genetic syndromes:
VariCarta: A Comprehensive Database of Harmonized Genomic Variants Found in Autism Spectrum Disorder Sequencing Studies.
Autism Res. 2019;12(12):1728–1736. doi:10.1002/aur.2236

If you disagree then provide the PubMed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any vaccine on the present American pediatric schedule causes more harm than the diseases? Does the MMR vaccine cause pneumonia in one out of twenty doses? Does the DTaP vaccine cause death in one in thirty five doses? That was the kill rate of actually getting diphtheria in the former Soviet Union states in the 1990s: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2640235/pdf/9866730.pdf

Now, really provide that information. Explain how diphtheria is better than getting the DTaP vaccine series, and really tell us why it was better for 81 kids to die in Samoa: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/118482464/samoa-measles-outbreak-death-toll-rises-to-81-over-christmas

It’s sad you and the pack continue to downplay/refuse that adverse events/injuries can and do happen from vaccination.

It would be awfully nice if you would provide examples of the adverse events that we allegedly downplay/refuse.

@ Natalie

@ Athaic – Happy New Year and thank you for summarizing the article. It’s sad you and the pack continue to downplay/refuse that adverse events/injuries can and do happen from vaccination.

That’s it? After all these comments about providing you this article, that’s all you have to say? C’est un peu court, jeune femme.

It’s sad you and your pals continue to downplay/refuse that adverse events/injuries can and do happen from childhood diseases.

@ Athaic – Athaic writes, “That’s it? After all these comments about providing you this article, that’s all you have to say? C’est un peu court, jeune femme.”

Oh…I do love the French language. I like your version of my name when you spell it with an “h”.

So, anyway, just a slight correction, you didn’t provide the article. You provided a summary which is definitely better than nothing. Thank you again.

@ Natalie

just a slight correction, you didn’t provide the article.

True, but I provided the readers here a way to get it.
Chris mentioned another way.

And it was not the sense of my question. I appreciate the thanks, but what I was hoping for was the why.
That would really have impressed me was for you to go get the article. I would have feel that you were being honest in wanting to discuss its content.

@ Denice Walter,

There’s an analogous method used by woo-meisters: if your don’t follow their protocols, you must be unattractive, overweight, disabled by chronic illness and on the way to the grave

Is there?

Hadn’t noticed that but my God …

The disparity in attractiveness between ‘antivaxxers’ & the provaccine is hard to ignore. Good health DOES = attractiveness at any & all ages.

Wouldn’t surprise me a bit to see a ‘woo-meister’ capitalize on that every once in a while; just for fun. It is amusing.

@ Brian,

because a lot of mosquitoes weigh a pound you might suffer a concussion if one lands on your head

It only takes one tiny mosquito to spear through the integument & inject one with over 100 proteins & certain viruses that invoke a cytokine response.

Maybe utilize a different insect that is not the deadliest animal known to mankind for your analogy.

I have no medical training, but even I understand that not every time something bad happens that affects the brain it’s a concussion.

@ Dorit,

the now arrested coconut farmer that convinced parents not to take children to hospital until it was too late and not to vaccinate their children

The ‘coconut farmer’ is a respected man in Samoa & all of the children whose parents followed HIS advice are still alive. His words; not some antivaccine ‘leader’.

What are you doing here Dorit? You are actually much too nice of a person to be associating with people who call others ‘sadistic child haters’.

What makes you think all the children he interacted with are still alive? He would hardly tell you otherwise, and the doctors in the hospitals speak rarely – and on those rare occasions, say that delay in bringing children in because they have been treated by alternative healers is a major issue – and they don’t name the healers.

You have no basis for thinking he had no role in deaths and harm.

And I wouldn’t use that language, and don’t think it fits because I think most of you are acting based on alternative reality and think you’re acting for good. But I share the frustration and anger at the harm done in Samoa, and the incredibly ugly antivaccine reaction to it.

One reason I use that term is that I am angry. Unlike many who are younger I have taken care of kids with now vaccine preventable diseases, including a six month old infant with chicken pox.

I am appalled that there are those who think kids should get chicken pox, and even measles! I am even angrier at the excuses presented after a small country that is not a “third world” nor a “developing country” as a former part of New Zealand has suffered so much due to a low vaccination rate.

I remember your painful descriptions of what you and your family went through from previous posts, and deeply sympathize.

I also find it painful that anyone would not want children protected. Though I don’t have your deeply personal memories.

Also, it seems to have worked to rattle a couple of people. Remember I have been dealing with this stuff for over twenty years, to way back when we had a phone modem and there were fears of a millennium bug (which prompted the creation of this very early blog: https://ratbags.com/rsoles/ ). When I was on an email listserv with was email only, and where I “met” Orac on UseNet. There is just so much that I can endure.

Like a New York Times article with several photos that included very small coffins. An article that was called “fake news.”

@ Dorit,

What makes you think all the children he interacted with are still alive

Because I have been told that by both his sister & the man who took over for him after he was arrested.

What makes YOU think you are hearing the TRUTH from the media?

And I wouldn’t use that language, and don’t think it fits because I think most of you are acting based on alternative reality and think you’re acting for good

If it’s an alternative reality, the numbers of those who share it are growing by the day & it will soon become the reality of the majority. Of course I am acting for the good; the deaths & disabilities won’t stop until the vaccinations stop.

Best case scenario would be for the use of current vaccines to be halted & the program resumed using personalized vaccines created under the principals of immunogenetics and immunogenomics; ‘uptake-metrics’ be damned. Please read section # 7 & # 8. Uptake-metrics have been the priority over that of an individuals life.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2831634/

If my kids & thousands of others have been acceptable losses; your children could be next. You could be next. To know that the knowledge is there that could protect all of us from both vaccine-injury AND vaccine-preventable disease? But that it hasn’t been done out of preference for uptake metrics?

This is unacceptable. As a mother; you have to find this as unacceptable. We could have the vaccines without the risk but until that risk is admitted to; it won’t happen.

Well, formerly admitted to. Dr Poland does admit to as much in this paper. Dr Poland has also been a member of the ACIP; meaning that the ACIP has acted in complete disregard of the science & with policy, not our children; as the priority. That is not their job. How can you support this?

” At present we are achieving among the highest rates of vaccine uptake. We have accomplished this in part by MINIMIZING THE PERCEPTIONS of contraindications and precautions for vaccines. Furthermore, with few exceptions, we do not adjust the dose for age or body mass nor do we vary the number of doses based on exposure to disease or timing of past vaccines. Our uptake-metrics that we now celebrate as the highest we have ever achieved in the history of public health depend on our one-size-fits-all approach to vaccination. Furthermore, it facilitates standing orders and mass vaccinations done to address large numbers of those who seek rapid and timely vaccination.”

Minimizing the PERCEPTIONS? In order to increase uptake-metrics; my loss has been minimized? SIDS is from co-sleeping? I didn’t. And she was on her back but she HAD been vaccinated less than 24 hrs earlier.

Autism is only genetic? Yeah I have some of the 300+ variants associated with autism. There are 300+. A lot of us have one or more of them & surely my son inherited some of those from me but yet he was ahead developmentally until the day after his ‘catch-up’ vaccines. He DID develop encephalopathy the day after being vaccinated. His brain swelled & he regressed into autism.

They COULD minimize the actual risk with personalized vaccines but admit that they are choosing to minimize the perception instead. Could that be why we are only shown epidemiology as the ‘proof’ that vaccines are safe?

Federal rules of evidence do not allow for epidemiology to prove (or disprove) causation (without supporting etiology) for a reason. Confounders in the study can minimize risk. It can only therefore show a correlation (or lack thereof). It’s ironic that the provax will be the first to spout ‘correlation does not equal causation’; not knowing how much of a case in point that actually is.

A. His sister and the man who took over promoting fake treatments and scaring people from vaccines are almost by definition not reliable, and their opinion on this isn’t actually data.

B. This specific article I am thinking of is an interview with the doctors in the hospital about what they’re seeing. You can, of course, prefer the opinion of the people who don’t have to actually deal with the seriously ill kids.

C. Thank you for dropping your prior pretense that you’re not fully antivaccine.
And claiming that not protecting children from disease will stop deaths rather than cause them is patently wrong.

D. I don’t know where you get your comment about the federal rules of evidence. When I used to teach scientific evidence, the general rule in courts is that epidemiology is the best evidence, higher in the hierarchy than the other kinds usually available, like animal studies.

I think I’m going with the cases over your opinion.

@ Dorit,

(responding to below statement but using this one for visibility)

My statement about the epidemiology came from Cornell University.

“Epidemiological studies can never prove causation; that is, it cannot prove that a specific risk factor actually causes the disease being studied. Epidemiological evidence can only show that this risk factor is associated (correlated) with a higher incidence of disease in the population exposed to that risk factor.”

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/TIB/epidemiology.html

Did you read section 7 & 8 of Poland’s paper or not?

I am pro-personalized vaccines. We can have protection from VPD’s with superior vaccines. Why are you anti-personalized vaccines?

There is an inherent problem in using non-legal sources that don’t focus on law to try and prove what the federal rules of civil procedure say. That’s not the focus.

If your connections in Samoa are limited to the circle around Mr. Tamassese you are getting heavily biased, channeled information.

I know it’s what you want to believe, but you should know yourself that it is not objective and cannot be treated as reflecting a general view.

After all, these are the people working to scare people from protecting their children from measles and treating them appropriately when they’re sick.

Now, 81 people are dead. Most young children.

The people you see as the only real Samoans in existence has a role in that.

Best case scenario would be for the use of current vaccines to be halted & the program resumed using personalized vaccines created under the principals of immunogenetics and immunogenomics

Christine isn’t antivax. She just wants all existing vaccines to be banned and replaced with completely imaginary vaccines synthesized for each recipient according to a jumble of random Worship Words that fell out of her mouth together.

@ Science mom,

Because that is what Edwin’s family & friends are saying.

Actual Samoans in actual Samoa. Anyone who speaks or acts in defiance of the false idol named Vaccine will be arrested. Do you really think they would risk arrest to say this if it were not true?

People without integrity will lie to fit the narrative. They will say one thing to your face & another behind your back. They will denounce their family & friends to protect themselves.

These Samoans are doing the opposite. Edwin knew they were going to arrest him before it happened. He was officially warned but wouldn’t stop because the children who were going to the hospital were being vaccinated while sick & dying. When he was arrested, one of the police officers said; ‘So you are the one who helped my family’s child survive the measles’ & Edwin said he was not afraid after that point on because he knew he was ‘in good hands’.

Right now you can call the Samoan government & tip off anyone you see on social media blaspheming vaccines. But as long as the Samoan police are actually Samoans; you won’t accomplish much, other than being a snitch.

So basically the Samoan govt. are arresting everyone who promotes the antivax scam, except they aren’t arresting anyone because the police are on the sides of the scammers.
Christine knows this because Samoans tell her so, real Samoans, whose authenticity is proven by the fact that they tell her what she wants to hear. All those other Samoans who support the vaccination program are not real Samoans.
Also those voices in Christine’s head anonymous people who claim that they’ll be arrested if they speak out, we must take them seriously because they’re risking arrest just by saying they’ll be arrested. They can’t possibly be lying Dramadillos,

Much as I enjoy Christine’s Police-State-Samoa dystopian fantasy, it is becoming too far-fetched for my tastes.

Because that is what Edwin’s family & friends are saying.

As Prof. Reiss already pointed out, not reliable reporters but biased, just how you like them.

People without integrity will lie to fit the narrative.

I fully concur and you demonstrate this with every comment you make. Smut Clyde sums up the rest of your far-flung conspiracy so I’ll leave it at that.

@ Athiac,

I have a lot more troubles with a nurse given a lab result and not being able to go from blood concentration to quantity in the full volume of blood. And then correlate it to the amount of aluminium in vaccines

It was not a blood test. It was hair.

This was in 2006 & the lab did not know my son’s diagnosis; as this was a private pay account.

The lab did not say ‘it was the vaccines’. The footnote simply stated that at that time, it was unknown what could have caused the result but that a growing body of evidence was correlating high levels of aluminum with Autism & Alzheimers’.

I doubt it would be possible to use a blood test to document aluminum poisoning from vaccines as correlated with autism. Excess aluminum deposits in bone, brain, liver, heart, spleen, and muscle (& hair).

It takes months after vaccination to see the autistic behaviors that result from synaptic overgrowth after the vaccine damages the microglia.

@ Science Mom,

If hair toxicology is not reliable ; you need to alert all those in Forensics, Occupational Health, CPS, FBI, Parole/Probation offender services, etc; who have started to use that method in preference over blood & urine toxicology.

If hair toxicology is not reliable ; you need to alert all those in Forensics, Occupational Health, CPS, FBI, Parole/Probation offender services, etc; who have started to use that method in preference over blood & urine toxicology.

It is not a reliable test for aluminium and is not used by toxicologists. You’d know this if you took your child to an actual toxicologist.

“It takes months after vaccination to see the autistic behaviors that result from synaptic overgrowth after the vaccine damages the microglia.”

Christine’s attempts at science are reminiscent of monkeys at typewriters trying to reproduce the works of Shakespeare. It could happen someday, but don’t bet on it.

“Takes months” is rather at odds with the usual tales of light going out of eyes and other events within hours of vaccination.

G-d! Even Wakefield had to totally fix records to make signs of autism appear close to vaccination!

@ doug,

Synapses that overgrow due to damaged microglia could not do so in the numbers necessary to cause a noticeable change in behavior in just a few hours.

I believe parents might think that has occurred when their child actually has the onset of encephalopathy within a few hours & the symptoms persist as the synaptic overgrowth occurs.

This would explain why they don’t notice the regression but instead believe they saw the child become autistic ‘within hours’. Encephalopathy fades out as synaptic overgrowth builds.

“Takes months” is rather at odds with the usual tales of light going out of eyes and other events within hours of vaccination.

When you just make shit up, one’s personal “truth” can be anything they want it to be. Anti-vaxxers are quite good at accepting competing narratives for what “stole” their children.

@ Chris,

I have taken care of kids with now vaccine preventable diseases, including a six month old infant with chicken pox

That’s your virtue-signaling appeal to pity? Or did you have to take care of sick kids another time too? NICU/PICU/ICU? Been there done that but not due to a vpd.

We tried to breathe life back into the dead bodies of our infants & only let go when the paramedics arrived to pry our lifeless children from our arms.

SMH

It’s tragic that your child died. Vaccines don’t cause SIDS. Antivaccine activism puts other children at risk of diseases that can kill them.

It’s not a good way to channel your pain.

It is time to ignore the this drama queen’s pity party. Just because it is all about her, does not mean we have to get sucked into it anymore.

@ Narad – That song was great! You know my love of punk and post punk music. What an awesome way to be called an a-hole! From what I can recall, Picasso was quite the womanizer, like most artist types, which makes him an a-hole.

Speaking of a-holes, Narad writes, “So… you comment while at the gym?” Have you heard of a standing desk. Donald Rumsfeld (a-hole) has one. Thomas Jeffferson (a-hole) and Leonardo DaVinci (a-hole?) had them.

Now DaVinci, there is a master. Picasso meh.

https://rebeldesk.com/blogs/articles/famous-standing-desk-users-in-history

@ Chris,

It is time to ignore the this drama queen’s pity party

Chris, earlier:

One reason I use that term is that I am angry. Unlike many who are younger I have taken care of kids with now vaccine preventable diseases, including a six month old infant with chicken pox

Oh my. You poor dear. How did you ever manage? Alright; I’ll give you back your coveted crown of thorns & nail you back on your cross.

@ christine kincaid

I’ll give you back your coveted crown of thorns & nail you back on your cross.

I’m sure Chris will agree with me that you can keep them, they suit you better.
“give your back”. Eh, lapsus scriptorum?

Is it me, or is Christine vying for the title of of the most wretched life in the universe? I wasn’t aware it was a competition.

@ Athaic:
@ Chris:

That’s what it’s about.
Suggesting counselling or a SB course on the material of concern probably will do little good –
studies have shown that providing anti-vaxxers with reality-based information may cause them to dig their heels in even further and getting information from a professional may do the same: they prefer parents ( although Chris or Dorit don’t count)
— these people have already heard the SBM position repeatedly and commenters here with both great expertise and skill in explication have attempted to break through to no avail.( You know who you are)
— idiosyncratic theories spinning inside their heads create more gravity because they revolve around personal needs.
— their identity includes being a contrarian “damaged” by mainstream information and being a maverick/ rebel against authority

Here’s something I discovered surveying anti-vax personae:
there are several women** who have degrees in social work, psychology or counselling who are resistant to SB vaccine information and indeed avoid information that excludes the vaccine-autism pseudo-link despite their education and training they cling to ideas that they might label as delusional if a client presented something as unrealistic ( although they probably would embrace an anti-vax client). One of the most privileged of that group can’t understand why scientists study genetics or gaze.

** Wright, MacNeil, Taylor, Limekiller TMR

I must add:
one of these activists whose parents started an autism charity ** when her son was diagnosed must not read the charity’s website about the causes of autism ( genetics, age of parent, NOT vaccines, etc).

** Autism Speaks

@ Denice

idiosyncratic theories spinning inside their heads create more gravity because they revolve around personal needs.

In the case of our visitor, astronomy metaphors seem quite apt, judging from some of her latest comments here (or maybe I forgot some of her previous ones).
Terms like gravity well and event horizon could be used. Or collapsing under her own gravity.
I have seen commenters spiraling down before, but in her case, that was fast. And not a pretty sight.

Mr. Reason-Logic-Compassion-SCIENCE-life-biomed-guru James Lyons-Weiler now fears a CBC “hit piece” is going to air regarding his antivax activities.

A CBC producer sent an email to LW asking for comment about LW’s remarks to a CBC reporter who was supposedly posing as an antivaxer. Their conversation appears to have been…interesting. One of the most entertaining exchanges involves LW allegedly explaining how he could get paid for appearing at an antivax event without triggering classification as an “international lobbyist”.

You can find the purported text of the CBC email and LW’s rambling, self-glorifying response on his website. It reads in part:

“For the record, I am far from anti-vaccine; I am pro-science…US regulatory agencies including CDC, NIH, and the FDA have abdicated their roles as keepers of the public trust in Science, and that explains why IPAK, the Institute for Pure and Applied Knowledge, has such broad and growing international appeal to the public as an alternative, truly not-for-profit entity is (sic) carrying the torch of objectivity in Science into the next decade.”

Now that’s Science, baby. Or delusional self-promotion. You decide.

Mr. Reason-Logic-Compassion-SCIENCE-life-biomed-guru James Lyons-Weiler now fears a CBC “hit piece” is going to air regarding his antivax activities.

Something tell me that Lyons-Weiler is not going to handle the ensuing public critique of his anti-vaxx activities and um “studies”. I’ve seen him speak and judging from his responses to valid criticism of his work, he has a thin skin and a fragile constitution.

that explains why IPAK, the Institute for Pure and Applied Knowledge, has such broad and growing international appeal to the public

Well, I guess, going from 11 followers to 14 followers on Twitter could be seen as “growing international appeal”.
Even in one of the new ones is your mother-in-law, and another one is one “Alexandra Touchmyasskaia”.

(end sarcasm mode/disclaimer – I’m making the numbers up, but until JLW provides evidence that IPAK is indeed acquiring renown, I’ll stick to my theory; oh, and the last name is a “real” one, someone who wanted to befriend me an Facebook)

In further adventures of the incompetent, here’s a thought-provoking quote from a new website post by James Lyons-Weiler:

“A small vocal minority of people should not determine the course of scientific discourse in any inquiry, especially in an area of inquiry that influences the health of billions of people.”

Right on, James! That’s exactly how we should view antivaxers.

Want to respond to Orac? Here's your chance. Leave a reply!

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.