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Contrary to advice from an antivaxxer, claiming a history of anaphylaxis after vaccination will not guarantee a medical exemption

Contrary to advice from an antivaxxer whom we’ve met before, claiming anaphylaxis after vaccination is not a sure-fire way to get a medical exemption to school vaccine mandates.

If there’s one thing I’ve learned about the antivaccine movement, it’s that honesty is not its forte. As long ago as 2007, I was pointing out how leaders of the antivaccine movement were providing strategies to parents to lie about their religion in order to obtain religious exemptions to school vaccine mandates. More recently, with the much welcomed passage of laws eliminating nonmedical school vaccine mandates, such as SB 277 in California, the dishonesty shifted to claiming medical exemptions for conditions for which they are not needed and that science doesn’t support; e.g., family history of autism, family history of autoimmune diseases, and the like. Sadly, this dishonesty was perpetrated by antivaccine physicians, who got in on the grift of selling bogus medical exemption letters. However, just the other day, I saw an antivaxxer advocating lying about something I’d never seen an antivaxxer advocate lying about before, at least not that I recall. Over at the blog of a certain antivaxxer who’s occasionally appeared in the comments here, I saw a post, How to avoid mandatory vaccination. And what strategy did this antivaxxer advocate for avoiding school vaccine mandates? To lie about a history of an anaphylactic reaction to vaccination!

I kid you not:

The CDC provides a list of contraindications for every vaccine. A “contraindication” is a factor or condition that means a drug or treatment must not be used. It is the most powerful reason for not getting a vaccine, stronger than other reasons for a medical exemption. Other reasions for medical exemption (e.g. immune deficiency, or presence other disease such as cancer) can be debatable, depending on severity, and ultimately leave the vaccination decision to the patient. A contraindication however affirmatively requires that a vaccine must not be given. A doctor that gives a vaccine in spite of a contraindication could be punished or sued, at least in theory. At the bottom of this article is a table from the CDC website listing contraindications for all vaccines available in the US. Notice that every vaccine has the following contraindication:
Severe allergic reaction (e.g., anaphylaxis) after a previous dose or to a vaccine component
This contraindication is your ticket to getting a medical exemption for any vaccine you do not want. The only thing you have to do is say that you had the vaccine in the past (possibly the distant past, like years ago), and that you experienced symptoms of anaphylaxis afterward.

Before I discuss just how horrible an idea this is (and not just because it advocates blatantly lying to your child’s doctor), let’s see how our “friend” responds to potential objections about how a parent might get caught lying about this critical piece of vaccine history:

Of course, you will have to lie about the symptoms of anaphylaxis. However, if done correctly, there is no way to be caught lying about the symptoms. You will have absolute and total plausible deniability, and in view of this, any doctor will be forced to approve your medical exemption request.

You could be caught lying about receiving the vaccine in the past, but only by someone who has access to your complete medical records, and only for vaccines that are normally documented in medical records. However, some vaccines are given without documentation, such as the flu vaccine, which is given at pharmacies. And sometimes vaccination is not properly recorded. So you can still plausibly claim to have received a vaccine even if it is not documented.

Most people are uncomfortable lying, and that’s (usually) a good thing. Lying can be unethical. But if someone is forcing you to receive an unwanted, harmful vaccine, I believe lying to obtain a medical exemption is completely justified.

Yeah, because doctors asking about vaccines are just like Nazis looking for Anne Frank’s family’s hiding place; so lying is justified. Apparently this is the way this particular antivaxxer thinks. But don’t call him antivaccine! He just thinks that lying about your child’s medical condition to avoid vaccines is ethically justifiable because vaccines are so evil.

Also, many states have statewide databases for vaccination. Any vaccine administered must be entered into the database. In Michigan, for instance, we have the Michigan Care Improvement Registry (MCIR), and all providers, including pharmacies, must report childhood immunizations to the database within 72 hours of administration. Claiming your child was immunized at a pharmacy, contrary to our “friend’s” advice, would not be a way to fool a physician, at least not in this state, as MICR is more than happy to print out a list of vaccines received by a given child upon the request of a physician, be it in this state or any other. I’m not sure which other states have similar databases, but a fair number do.

Of course, none of that stops our antivaccine “friend,” who also has advice on how to fool a doctor who might have access to your child’s complete medical records. How? By claiming that the child suffered a milder, non-life-threatening anaphylactic/allergic reaction:

Claim that the symptoms started about 0.5-2 hours after the vaccine. The more rapid the occurrence of anaphylaxis after exposure, the more likely the reaction is to be severe and potentially life threatening. Do not claim that the symptoms started within minutes. Otherwise, the doctor will wonder why you did not go to the hospital straight from the clinic were you supposedly received the vaccine.
EXAMPLE: “I started feeling strange about 1 hour after the vaccine. Symptoms got worse over the next few hours and persisted into the night. I almost went to the hospital but then it didn’t seem serious enough. I didn’t know what was happening at the time, but now I think I maybe had an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine.”
And that’s it! Any halfway-competent doctor will immediately conclude that you had an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine. And there is no way for any doctor, now matter how hostile, to prove you wrong. Since anaphylaxis can be deadly, even the most stubborn and unreasonable vaccine-pushing doctor will be forced to give you the benefit of the doubt and the exemption that is everyone’s right. To do otherwise could create malpractice liability for the doctor and put their license to practice medicine at risk.

No, any halfway competent doctor, upon hearing this history related by the parents, would refer the child to an allergist for a complete workup and allergy testing to identify the component of the vaccine that caused the reaction claimed. That’s the guideline from the American College of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology (ACAAI). Indeed, here’s a more recent set of consensus guidelines (International Consensus, or ICON) from 2016 for how to handle allergic reactions to vaccines, ranging from mild to life-threatening anaphylaxis. It comes from a committee formed by the European Academy of Allergy and Clinical Immunology (EAACI), the American Academy of Allergy, Asthma, and Immunology (AAAAI), and the ACAAI. Of course, because, by our “friend’s” own recommendation, the fake anaphylaxis reaction lied about was not life-threatening, standard allergy skin testing would be safe and indicated after such a history.

Here’s a good summary, liberally quoted from the paper:

Investigation of allergic reactions following the receipt of multiple vaccines simultaneously and/or combined vaccines is increasingly common and can be challenging. If serologic or skin testing are indicated the investigator may choose to prioritize the evaluations based on what they suspect to be the most likely allergens. When proceeding to the administration of additional doses of indicated vaccines, the investigator will need to assess each vaccine separately when possible. Conjugate polysaccharide-protein vaccines may require investigation of the proteins that are conjugated to the polysaccharides as well as other vaccine components as the plain polysaccharides are less likely causes of allergic reactions.

And:

A number of approaches to vaccine skin testing have been suggested but current guidelines recommend that testing be initiated with a prick skin test to the full strength vaccine, unless the patient has a history of severe anaphylaxis in which case it is appropriate to dilute the vaccine 1:10 or even 1:100 to initiate prick skin testing [4, 118] (D). If the prick skin test with full-strength vaccine is negative, an intradermal test with the vaccine diluted 1:100 should then be performed. All tests need to be interpreted carefully with appropriate positive and negative controls, recognizing that falsely positive skin test results may occur. These may be the result of true but clinically irrelevant IgE responses or to irritant effects of the vaccine. A case control study of a child with a history of anaphylaxis to the 23-valent pneumococcal vaccine positive skin tests and in vitro IgE tests to the whole vaccine, included nine controls [121] (C). In one study irritant reactions were common at concentrations of 1:10 or undiluted vaccines, especially with influenza, MMR, and varicella vaccines [122].

At the 1:100 concentration, rates of irritant reactions were far less common with the most frequent being 5 % for DT and DTaP and 15 % for influenza. It is also important to recognize that delayed responses (12–24 h) to vaccine skin tests are common, most likely representing previously established cell-mediated immunity, or immune complex formation in patients with high titers of antibody to vaccine components [123] (D), and should not raise concern in the evaluation of IgE-mediated vaccine allergy [122]. If the suspected vaccine contains specific constituents known to be potentially allergenic, testing should also be conducted for those components. These primarily include egg (for reactions to yellow fever or influenza vaccines), gelatin (see Table 3 for the gelatin content of specific vaccines), latex, and yeast. Skin test reagents for egg and yeast are commercially available. Prick skin test solutions for gelatin can be prepared by dissolving one teaspoon of gelatin powder in 5 mL of normal saline. Skin test extracts for latex are commercially available in many countries but not in the United States. In addition to skin testing, in vitro testing for allergen-specific IgE is available in most commercial laboratories for egg, gelatin, latex, and yeast. For gelatin, it is important that assays for both porcine and bovine products be conducted.

I’m going to steal the figure for the general approach recommended by ICON:

Worksheet for workup after allergy or anaphylaxis to vaccination.

Notice the recommendation: If skin testing and in vitro IgE testing (IgE is a type of antibody) are both negative, then it is safe proceed with vaccination:

If both skin and in vitro testing are negative, especially if the intradermal skin test to the vaccine is negative, the chance that the patient has an IgE-mediated allergy to the vaccine or to any vaccine constituent is very small. The usual dose of the vaccine can therefore be administered with at least a 30 min observation period after vaccination in a facility where anaphylaxis can be recognized and managed with epinephrine and other supportive treatments.

Of course, if a parent lies about an anaphylactic reaction, it is extremely likely that both skin and in vitro IgE tests for the vaccine and the vaccine components most likely to cause severe allergic reactions will be negative. All that lying about anaphylaxis after a vaccine will accomplish is to subject the child to more testing, including blood draws and potentially painful skin tests. If the parent refuses the testing, then a competent physician would not grant a medical exemption, although a competent doc might grant a short term temporary exemption letter (that is, if the state law provides for that) to allow time for the child to undergo a workup for allergies to vaccines and vaccine components.

Only if the skin or in vitro testing is positive, which of course would be extremely unlikely in a child whose parent lied about previous anaphylaxis after vaccination does ICON recommend considering an alternative vaccination schedule:

If skin or in vitro testing to the vaccine or a vaccine component is positive, alternative approaches to vaccination should be considered. However, if the vaccine is considered necessary – that is, the benefit of the vaccine clearly outweighs the potential risk of vaccine administration – it is usually possible to safely administer the vaccine using a graded dose protocol [4]. These decisions should be carefully considered on a case-by-case basis, recognizing that even administration using a graded dose protocol still carries a threoretical risk of anaphylaxis. This should be conducted with informed consent and only in a setting prepared to treat anaphylaxis.

In other words, even in the case of a documented anaphylactic reaction, if the vaccine is deemed important enough it might still be recommended that the child undergo vaccination with precautions to minimize the risk of anaphylaxis. Obviously, such decisions would be made on a case-by-case basis, and most likely a medical exemption would still be justified, but, again, the child of a parent who lied about anaphylaxis after vaccination would be incredibly unlikely to test positive by skin testing or in vitro IgE assessment for an allergy to the vaccine after which anaphylaxis was claimed to have occurred—or to any of its components. ICON even notes that a documented egg allergy is usually not a contraindication to receiving the influenza vaccine!

In the end, all our antivax “friend’s” advice would achieve, at least when used on non-quack physicians, is for the physician to insist on a workup to identify the vaccine and/or component of the vaccine to which the child was claimed to be allergic to the point of anaphylaxis, resulting in unnecessary and potentially painful testing or no exemption. Bad advice like this is the result of not knowing the standard of care or that allergies to vaccines or vaccine components are not diagnosed by history alone without allergy testing and, worse, not even bothering to research what the standard of care is. Of course, not knowing and not bothering to research describe antivaxxers perfectly.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

335 replies on “Contrary to advice from an antivaxxer, claiming a history of anaphylaxis after vaccination will not guarantee a medical exemption”

Further, anaphylaxis is a contraindication to that vaccine or to vaccines containing the suspect ingredient.

Not a blanket “the child cannot get any vaccines anymore ever” thing.

Also note that the contraindication is anaphylaxis, “severe allergic reaction,” not “I felt bad after the vaccine,” as the anti-vaccine activist quotes.

As you point out, this is not only dishonest, it’s not smart.

Even anaphylaxis after a vaccine is not an absolute contraindication to another dose of that vaccine. Again, if the allergy testing (skin test and IgE) is totally negative, the recommendation is, if further doses of the suspected offender are necessary, to proceed with vaccination but observe the child afterward.

One of the trouble areas i run into is Fed reimbursement has a barrier for access to allergy-immunology testing. We have the ability to run even infant panels, but it’s like pulling teeth to actually get my order funded. Frustrating on a number of levels.

As I’ve noted before, antivaxxers demanding a government that is poisoning their kids must educate them too are not only being ludicrously illogical, but stupid as all fuck too.

For this is the lie that reveals a truth: that they’re all just a bunch of fucking narcs; entitled to everything, giving nothing back.

Telling quote:
” I almost went to the hospital…”
So many of the anti-vaxxers I read report anaphylaxis, encephalopathy, encephalitis, strokes and other serious events.
Yet they seem to just wait around to see what happens. and then, months or years later, report what happened, often elaborating their tale.

Cognitive psychologists know that people “remember” events that fit in better amongst their beliefs whether they happened or not. Sceptics check themselves because of this tendency.

I remember hearing in Psych 1 that memory is less like a video recorder, and more like a kaleidoscope; we twist things until they look “right” to us. The illustration made a big impression on me.

I recall that one of the consistent things about people who do have severe allergic reactions is that they HATE people who use ‘allergies’ as a synonym for ‘I don’t like that’, because it weakens the idea that taking precautions against allergens might save someone’s life. (Not to mention anyone with a severe reaction to vaccination ingredients might also be relying on herd immunity since they can’t do as much to prevent illness in themselves.)

“I recall that one of the consistent things about people who do have severe allergic reactions is that they HATE people who use ‘allergies’ as a synonym for ‘I don’t like that’, because it weakens the idea that taking precautions against allergens might save someone’s life.”
A small demurrer here. Folk on the autism spectrum, like me, can have food aversions, like I do, that aren’t always based on anything we can explain, or at least that I can’t.
In some situations, it’s just easier to say, “I’m allergic to it” than to start trying to educate others about autism, aversions, or even the fact that I have (*Vile murdering Nazi scumbag Hans) Asperger’s syndrome.

Dr Hans Asperger knowingly sent children to their deaths under the Nazi eugenics program Aktion T4. Many of these deaths were excruciating ordeals of death by starvation among other means. It’s a stark pity that he died without ever standing in the dock to be tried for his crimes.

@ Old Rockin’ Dave

Here’s an article on the Asperger guy. That may or may not be seen as nuanced, or too nuanced.

https://tidsskriftet.no/en/2019/05/essay/asperger-nazis-and-children-history-birth-diagnosis

End note of the article:

“The story of Hans Asperger, Nazism, murdered children, post-war oblivion, the birth of the diagnosis in the 1980s, the gradual expansion of the diagnostic criteria and the huge recent interest in autism spectrum disorders exemplify the historical and volatile nature of diagnoses: they are historic constructs that reflect the times and societies where they exert their effect. The story of Asperger and Nazism reminds us that the psychiatric notion of illness ought to be kept narrow and defended against medicalisation of ever more areas of human life.”

If ever I said anything remotely like this, I’d be castigated as anti-science: Anytime I said that there is a risk in medicalizing “ever more area of human life”, I’ve systematically witnessed the word “science” being instrumentalized in ways that make me puke.

F68.10, thanks for the link. It added to my knowledge of (F***ing murdering Nazi slimeball) Hans Asperger. I don’t quite know what to make of the conclusion but it’s late at night so I expect that I will have to read it again.
The Nazi euthenics program targeted people who were called “life unworthy of life”, a concept that was soon to be extended to Jews and others. It was strongly influenced by contemporaneous forced sterilization programs in Sweden and the US. Illness and congenital disability were not the only causes for murder, Even First World War veterans who had lost limbs, or eyesight, or had suffered lung damage from poison gas could be treated as worthless and fit to die, rather than heroes who had sacrificed for the Fatherland (“He’s not a war hero. He was a war hero because he was captured. I like people who weren’t captured.”).
While he may have saved some children, it means little in context of the time. There were many high ranking Nazis who had a favored Jew who they protected for all the reasons you might imagine, and when Germany faced defeat, some of the those Jews were an “insurance policy” to “attest” that they couldn’t have persecuted Jews, just look at the ones I protected. Hermann Goering protected the doctor and his family who had treated and sheltered him after he was wounded in the Beerhall Putsch and was wanted by the authorities.
So, the bad Herr Doktor might have been bribed, or had a sentimental attachment to the child, or received sexual favors from the mothers, or acted on a whim or who-knows-what.
On balance, he should have been hanged, a fate that all too few Nazi murderers met with.

@ Old Rockin’ Dave

“The Nazi euthenics program targeted people who were called “life unworthy of life”, a concept that was soon to be extended to Jews and others.”

Yeah. That was Ernst Rüdin if I remember correctly who coined the term.(*) Ironically, I think it fits quite well to my current situation, so I do not reject all concepts merely because of their (cough… cough… cough…) “dubious” origin. (Callous and highly insensitive irony inside…)

As far as I got the story of Asperger, he was a willing cog in the Nazi machine, profited from it undoubtedly, but wasn’t exactly an adherent to nazism, though he was perfectly indifferent to the fate of Jews he witnessed. Always tough to judge people in these kinds of highly crazy contexts, all the more as it is the whole spirit of a given culture at a given time that really is at stake here, but as far as I can tell, he wasn’t exactly “devilish” but “merely” highly inconsequential in his moral choices. Which in hindsight boils down to guilt.

To put it both bluntly and euphemistically: Hans Asperger does not rise to the same level of nastiness as Ernst Rüdin…

(*) I got it wrong: it was a colleague, Alfred Hoche, who did. Interestingly enough, the guy wasn’t a radical racist like nazis were, but clearly bent on eugenicism, which was rationale enough for his book. And he seemed to have been (privately…) critical of the euthanasia program his ideas explicitly legitimized. That rabbit hole of insanity goes really deep…

I’m also on the spectrum; if someone has a health trouble where they can’t eat something — and I’m including the texture issues some of us have — that is not easily explained, then saying ‘I have an allergy’ is a short-term solution. It still makes it clear that they will actually get sick (even if it is a vomit reflex because their brain won’t accept a certain texture as edible) if they eat the food. OI’d rather people accept the idea that others can have problems with food other than allergies and lactose intolerance, but that’s a long-term goal, alas.

I also think ‘I don’t like X’ is a valid complaint for food. But not for vaccination; not many people like getting jabbed with needles but in this case, you need to own that dislike. (Aka either get your kids vaccinated, or make alternate arrangements for their education.)

“A small demurrer here. Folk on the autism spectrum, like me, can have food aversions, like I do, that aren’t always based on anything we can explain, or at least that I can’t.
In some situations, it’s just easier to say, “I’m allergic to it” than to start trying to educate others about autism, aversions, or even the fact that I have (*Vile murdering Nazi scumbag Hans) Asperger’s syndrome.”

It took me a long time, as an adult, to learn that I’m allowed to say “No, thank you” and not give any explanation at all. It doesn’t work in all situations (never worked with my mother!). I always felt like I had to explain why I wasn’t eating the food someone offered because, of course, food is love and hospitality and all sorts of other emotional things.

It took me an equally long time to learn not to push food on people.

I wonder if Silberman has had second thoughts about all the space he devoted to building up Asperger’s reputation (and trashing Leo Kanner’s) in “Neurotribes”.

His narrative needed an Unsung Hero, so he picked Asperger. Choose better next time.

Cue anti-vaxxers being horrified at the idea that vaccines might be given with a known risk of anaphylaxis, and insisting that monitoring and standby interventions are insufficient, even though the same risk and precautions exist for allergy shots.

First, a comment from the (occasionally hyper-pedantic and also not infallible) editor in me: ‘forte’ does not have an accent aigu and is pronounced just like the English word ‘fort’ except with a French rolled ‘r.’ This is a common mistake.

I cannot believe these people will openly advocate lying in a way that can be attributed/documented. Do they not understand that the internet is forever? If someone is harmed by this conspiracy to evade legal requirements that there could be legal repercussions and that they attached their name to that conspiracy to do harm?! This has gone way beyond fanaticism into outright criminal conspiracy to endanger public health.

Thank goodness the Seattle school system has declared that no child who doesn’t have proof of up-to-date vaccinations as of this week can attend school. Enough of the waffling; every school system should be doing this. Now. They do a lot of other things by fiat that become effective immediately.

After all the holiday socializing, there could be a spike in a lot of problems caused by the unvaccinated. What will the anti-vaxx excuses be for that? Coincidence? Yeah, right.

Re forte: OMG, new to me–who studied French for six years! Mon Dieu! Thanks I guess, but somehow I cannot imagine saying, “grammar is simply not his fort(e)”–it has zero impact pronounced like that.

But when used in the context of an English sentence the word is pronouned ‘fort-ay’ regardless of how the French pronounce it. There are a lot of examples of languages borrowing words and mispronouncing them so it’s not as if this is at all unusual.

@ Orac

Just curious why you’re so upset about grammar pedantry. I do appreciate the fact that your posting guidelines reject grammar nazis, but I always thought that it was directed at people bashing others on futile grounds.

But here, you’re not having a grudge merely against grammar nazis but against grammar itself.

Seems a bit weird to me.

I detest pedantry of all kinds. Grammar is just a subset. Longtime readers know that. It’s not as though I haven’t complained about it a number of times over the 15 years I’ve been doing this.

Because it is often used as a distraction from the actual point of the article. It does not add anything, and it is annoying.

Caution: he also gets annoyed when he asked why it annoys him.

The good thing is that the number of kids sent home for no vaccines today was only 565 (down from 799 last night), and most of those kids are the ones who’s parents either can’t find the paperwork (especially the kids from other countries) and the ones who’s parents haven’t managed to get them to the clinic for their shots, rather than a whole lot of anti-vaxxers.

And while 565 is a lot, that’s for the whole school district in a large city.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/education/seattle-public-schools-begin-keeping-kids-without-vaccine-records-out-of-classes/

And I’m glad to report it was down about another 90 kids by the end of yesterday! That’s about 1% of the school district. (Students who are homeless are excluded from the record requirement because their paper trails are impossible and it’s more important that they be indoors this time of year. Also, federal law says they can’t be sent out of school.)

So hopefully by next week (barring snowstorm) all the kids will be back to school.

Sara January 8, 2020 at 1:11 pm

“I cannot believe these people will openly advocate lying in a way that can be attributed/documented. Do they not understand that the internet is forever? ”

No. At least not in the USA.

Here is Madeleine Albright confessing to the US mass murder of Iraqi children on TV/nternet. / It was worth it

An anonymous 23 second video by a former Secretary of State who had nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq, since that took place in the Bush administration, and Secretary Albright worked for President Clinton. Not relevant. We don’t even know the context of the quote, when it was made, or if the video is authentic. Rather than condemning Secretary Albright based on poor evidence, why don’t you read her book, “Fascism”? It’ll tell you a lot about the threat to democracy posed by the current administration.

Thanks for covering this.

I’ve never seen anaphylaxis to a vaccine, so if I suddenly started hearing a lot of these claims…this post will be remembered.

This must be cognitive anaphylaxis. You can test a parent for allergies to hostile ideas or facts with a simple test that takes only a few moments in the doctor’s office. For example, make eye contact and speak the following sentence in a neutral tone: “vaccines are good.”

Allergic parents may exhibit symptoms of cognitive anaphylaxis within 15 seconds: elevated heart rate, quoting of prominent quacks, reciting of urban myths, spittle flying, etc. Although rarely fatal it can be helpful to cue up the film “Vaxxed” and let it play a few minutes until symptoms subside.

To my mind t’s written like they are saying the parent should claim they had an anaphylactic shock rather than the child. Which would be even less likely to result in an exemption surely.

It is indeed written that way.
A Freudian slip? Antivaxers do seem to consider their children as an extension of their own body, so no wonder they could get confused as to who get the injection.
Or the author was angling for claiming a family history of vaccine-induced anaphylactic shocks. Which is indeed an even weaker claim as a basis for exemption.

Its funny the AV blogger subtitling their article “An objective Look at Vaccine Dangers”. Still I had a look round the site and its hot bed of pseudoscience misinformation and outright lies. Typical AV fare really and so like others I’ve come across.

I’ve given thousands of vaccinations during my carer and I can honestly say apart from a couple of cases of hives and a few sore arms I’ve never seen an anaphylaxic response, I did nurse a patient years ago recovering from Guillain–Barré syndrome that was suspected as being a reaction to an influenza vaccine, but it was never confirmed.

Also, if they’re really concerned about their children’s health, they should realize it’s a bad idea to falsify their medical records. Never mind whether the current doctor can see past records–I expect a pediatrician told “my child can’t have X vaccine because they had an anaphylactic reaction to a previous dose” is going to record something like “parent reports anaphylactic reaction, don’t give medications containing ingredient Y” and “parent reports child had a single dose of X vaccine in 2015 but not the full three-dose series.”

“Most people are uncomfortable lying, and that’s (usually) a good thing. Lying can be unethical.”

Oh Orac please give us more of your hypocritical morality lessons. They help me to feel so much better about myself.

Orac is quoting the author of the article saying that it’s OK to lie about allergic reactions. Orac isn’t saying that piece at all.

Wait a minute.
aren’t there quotation marks, the statement is inset and in a different typeface, preceded with “how ‘our friend’ responds”:
SRSLY oh clueless wonder.

This sort of personality likes to slip in assumptions which you must appear to accept if engage. The vaccines aren’t mandatory, what is mandatory is not using tax-paid public schools as their personal virus distribution centers. They are free to home school, a basic freedom which we ought to honor even if a some of the people exercising it al total jack-ss-s. Of course, they want it all and they want it “MY WAY!!”.

The answer needs to be firm, clear, consistent and offer a choice; namely, keep your disease-vectors at home + only around other families of like disposition, and you can skip the childhood vx. But that applies only until they want to be in a setting such as college, the military or health care where they could again become bio-terrorists to that person on chemo, etc. You don’t get to have it your way every day.

Orac, would like to sincerely thank you for relentlessly dissecting the anti-vaxx propaganda and refuting their BS with sound evidence and logic in an entertaining way.

Got a hint from the vaccine-autism link about 2 weeks ago and went on a google search frenzy. Got pretty scared at first and nearly discontinued my son’s vaccination program. He’s my first child and now 11.5 months old.

As a complete outsider to the medical world I found it impossible to separate the flawed medical studies from the proper ones. During my google quest there were so many studies cited “proving” the link, that it almost got a hold of me. The cognitive dissonance from information overload certainly didn’t help either.

You blog helped me tremendously in making the decision to continue vaccinating my son. He had his 4th shot 2 days ago, next month he’ll get his MMR.

Hope you read this. Thanks again.

Greetings,

A father from The Netherlands.

And that’s it! Any halfway-competent doctor will immediately conclude that you had an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine.

This will only give cover to the crank physicians like Bobo Sears and Paul Thomas who blithely write shonky medical exemptions. Then again, only up to a point, depending upon the state before they get flagged.

“Any halfway-competent doctor” That “halfway” is the key. Any fifty-one percent competent doctor or better won’t simply fall for such crap.

The only thing you have to do is say that you had the vaccine in the past (possibly the distant past, like years ago), and that you experienced symptoms of anaphylaxis afterward.

No, wait. Let me get this straight.

In order to avoid a vaccine over some concerns of some ill-defined, nebulous, non-proven harms the vaccine may do, the advice of this antivaxer is to claim having been harmed by the vaccine previously.
Obviously, when Big Pharma made a list of the news to suppress about possible serious side effect of vaccination, they forgot to put anaphylaxis on it.
Also, twenty years forward, I guess we will have antivaxers digging medical records and exhuming a trove of claims of anaphylaxis reactions to vaccines.

Sidenote. After stuff like this being advertised, why should we believe and be concerned about anything someone pretending to have been harmed by vaccines may say?

In order to avoid a vaccine over some concerns of some ill-defined, nebulous, non-proven harms the vaccine may do, the advice of this antivaxer is to claim having been harmed by the vaccine previously.

Dan Steinberg’s major claims to fame are copyright infringement and invention of the “Vapor Genie” grass pipe.

In other anti-vax news…

It appears that anti-vaxxers are again sitting in hearing rooms waiting despite the fact that hearings about their idee fixe aren’t occurring ( see photo @ DanielMunoz100). They plan on being present when the bill about religious exemptions is voted on whenever that is ( before next Tuesday).

Speaking of an idee fixe ( actually, several of them), Orac’s minions continue to challenge a brave mother warrior ( see Mercola thread) who apparently has too much time of her hands, Sane, rational commentary and SB information by regulars ( like Joel, Chris, Aarno, Athaic and Terrie- amongst others) are not enough to dissuade her beliefs because she never arrived at them through reason and information. Viewers will however witness reality-based commenters illustrating how impossible it is to change a mind that is stuck in the wrong gear: a lesson for all of us.

Also, ( see @ BusyDrT), Dr Tenpenny is scheduled to speak this afternoon and has already been meeting with senators about the law. She’s from Ohio. Earlier @ ChildrensHD listed vulnerable senators for followers to bother.

@ Denice

idee fixe

mezzo voceYou can put an accent on the first ‘e’ if you like, like this: idée. This one is a French word.
Um. Don’t ask me about “coup de grace”. Or Mrs Cake.

Normal voice
As I said before, Star wars fans waiting days in advance for the première of the new movie are cute and generally do not make too much trouble. Antivaxers camping in legislative rooms, OTOH… As if you Americans didn’t have plenty of real stuff to fix.
(not that we French are doing much better)

I know but it works out crappily on this computer. Coup de grace is worse. There are other signs that I can’t do easily so I don’t.

-btw- how many countries can have an impeachment trial and an attack a foreign country simultaneously because of widespread incompetence? Not too many. Not even Boris has done that yet.

Oh. I see what you mean, as I had to write French with Qwerty keyboards for about a decade.
My IRL name has an accent somewhere and I don’t put it anymore when filling digital non-French documents. Too many times coming back ‘translated’ into numeric code. I can live without accent.

Re: “coup de grace”, I was actually alluding to its pronunciation in the US. The accent is not that important (I say that because right now I can’t remember which way it should go).

Re: Boris – give him some time, he just started.
As for the political state of the US… I was around North America in 2003, and the current situation has some air de déjà vu, but much worse this time.
Also a puzzling fact: during the latest presidential election, Hillary Clinton was presented as a warmongering hawk. Compared to who? From the POV of this foreigner, during my entire lifetime, all US presidents have been engaged in the pursuit of one war or three.
The current US president may had promised no more war at some point, but his (short) temper is one of a belliciste, not one of a pacifist. And thus, here we are.

Heh! I looked at @ BusyDrT: she spoke with 6 state senators this morning and led me to #voteno2173 and anti-vax manoeuverings; I assume the bill’s sponsor ( @ Senator Loretta W) is aware of these activities because she blocked an anti-vax advocate.

Anti-vaxxers aren’t able to cover their tracks. RFK jr’s advice and naming NJ senators to pester is now forever!

A call to Senator Weinberg’s district office said it was the only supporting call and that ( if I understood correctly) they would vote TODAY (?) ; she wished that sceptics would have reached out earlier to them.

I guess she was right:
they have enough votes to pass / final vote Monday with certain acquiescence to private schools ( see nj.com) All lunacy erupts ( see @ DanielMunoz100)

They got a Republican, Sen Declan O’Scanlon to vote with the majority,

Maybe sceptics should reach out to supporters of this bill.
NJ will be the sixth state to have “medical only” if all goes well.
Expect insane reactions from anti-vaxxers.

Reporters are documenting anti-vax reactions to the preliminary vote ( see @ SusanKLivio;Brent Johnson; @ Daniel Munoz100); RFK jr demands a twitter storm directed at various named senators. O’Scanlon settled for consideration for private schools and daycare with some guidelines .
I expect internet frenzy until the final vote Monday and Governor Murphy’s actions.

Signing off .

Heh! I looked at @ BusyDrT: she spoke with 6 state senators this morning and led me to #voteno2173

The duo of “Fetal Tissues” @healthychickie and her aimless retweeter @no_phux is just painful.

OT: Potential celebrity woo alert.
WaPo reports today, “Justin Bieber looks like a drug addict, fans said. Then the singer revealed he has Lyme disease.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/01/09/lyme-disease-justin-bieber/

In the comments thread, palindrom noted the possibility this might be “chronic Lyme” and linked to a post on SBM by a certain MI based oncologist who may be familiar to RI readers as well. A possible future blog topic for Orac in the future? Bieber could bring the clicks…

A cursory examination of links or partners of the Avril Lavigne Foundation mentioned in the article did reveal the often used terms “chronic Lyme” and “lyme literate” in several places, indicating a very probable appearance of the ever popular Chronic Lyme Disease Brigade.

To sum up:

It seems that they will have 21 votes to eliminate the religious exemption in NJ BUT already RFK jr and Co are trying to get senators to change votes or vote to repeal. Kennedy lists senators. ( @ ChildrensHD)
When I spoke to Ms Weinberg’s assistant, she said that I was the only call that supported the bill amidst the multitudes of anti-vax supporters’ calls ( @ Senator Loretta W) although they had doctors et al.**
According to the reporters’ tweets/ videos, supporters carried on furiously in the statehouse, throwing placards from the second floor and shouting. “Murderers!”
Could sceptics do something to counter this? Might a few of us speak up? Enlighten legislators about how anti-vax works? Link to Orac or Dorit?

** at least they were smart enough to keep the vote quiet

[Antivaxxers] carried on furiously in the statehouse, throwing placards from the second floor and shouting. “Murderers!”

So… antivaxxers scream that the government is murdering their kids, and then, in the very next breath, demand that their kids be educated by that very same government.

I am shocked—shocked!—that I can’t even be arsed to post a Captain Renault gif any more.

“I started feeling strange about 1 hour after the vaccine. Symptoms got worse over the next few hours and persisted into the night. I almost went to the hospital but then it didn’t seem serious enough. I didn’t know what was happening at the time, but now I think I maybe had an anaphylactic reaction to the vaccine.”

Why is anyone here worried about this? Who even said that, what an amateur, lol. Wouldn’t even work for a child.

All’s that would do is to instigate more intrusiveness not less.

yeah & before anyone goes there; my son is fully vaxxed & doesn’t need an exemption. It’s a miracle.

You notice that symptoms were not serious enough. A nurse should know that anaphylactic shock id deadly serioud.

@ Aarno,

Exactly. That’s what is wrong with it. This is much better:

“I sliced my toe open at the beach while we were out of the country on vacation about five years ago & had to get stitches at some urgent care. I don’t remember the name but anyway they gave me a shot too. When we got back to our hotel room I stood up to get out of the car & my head started buzzing, all I could see was white & that’s the last thing I remember. I woke up in some ER & they said I had an allergic reaction to the shot. That’s what they told my mom at least. I couldn’t even go diving for the rest of the whole trip! I had to rest at the hotel & take something every six hours to be safe. Prednisone or something like that I guess? It was super lame but my mom said they told her I could have died & to not to get shots again.”

Actually. Ideally. That story should not be told to a PCP the first time. A person seriously hell bent on getting a exemption should ‘discover’ that they have a sore throat over a weekend, ‘remember’ that they were exposed to somebody’s kid who had strep & ‘decide’ to be nervous & need a throat culture BEFORE attending their ‘sister’s baby shower on Sunday’ & go into the ER needing a rapid strep.

The ER will have to ask; “What are your allergies” & THAT is when you tell your tale. It will be there for eternity.

Seriously; anyone in the US who finds an actual discrepancy on their EHR from an ER will know that getting it OFF your record is a total PITA. Had that issue with my twins when someone in the ER accidentally put ‘Twin A’s’ Asthma diagnosis on ‘Twin B’s’ chart. Twin B does not have Asthma. Twin A does. A decade later; both Twin A’s AND Twin B’s EHR states Asthma as a diagnosis. I just gave up. Anything the ER documets seems to be literally engraved in stone.

you would approve of this lie:

Could you get more precise? What is precisely the “lie”, here?
Reading between the lines, the article talks about trying to resolve conflict, and then about parental abuse.
A few of the answers may have been more accurately written (measles vaccine observed efficiency is 95-99%, depending on the number of shots, and the numbers could have been said), but apart from this…
Funny, there is even a whole paragraph about how to get yourself heard if suffering from a bad reaction.

@ Athiac,

Really? You approve of a website telling kids how to lie to get away unsupervised?

Figure out what (if anything) to say to your family. You can say that you’re going out, and not specify where. You can also tell a white lie, like saying that you are visiting a friend to study or hang out. You’re allowed to tell lies to protect your health and safety, and getting vaccinated is one of those cases.
If you plan to say that you were with a friend, contact that friend and their family. Explain that you are actually going to get vaccinated, and ask them to cover for you. You can even decide on a cover story (like “we watched the new romantic comedy” or “we studied for the upcoming history test”).
If your parents are distrustful, prepare your cover story especially well. Try actually doing your cover story activity on a different day, and even taking a selfie doing that thing with your friend. This way, you’ll have “evidence” of doing it, and can answer questions if they quiz you

Ad what if one of these kids actually DOES experience REAL anaphylaxis half an hour later while walking home from the clinic; while the parents think he’s at his buddies house studying for a test?

What happens when he doesn’t show up back home on time & the parents call the friends house & find out he was never there?

What if someone does’t see that kid lying on a sidewalk or behind a tree struggling to breathe & call 911 in time?

What if someone’s kid DIES because of this advice Athaic? A CHILD; not a grown up who can give informed consent; A CHILD!

Did you know I actually overheard a conversation between my twins & their little friends when they were about 13 involving vaccines, where one girl told the other girls that her mom ‘Wouldn’t take her to get her shots because she got Anthrax from a shot before”.

I had to interrupt that one. I said; “You can’t catch Anthrax from a vaccine. Why did your mom think you had Anthrax?”

She answered; “Because my throat started swelling & they had to call 911 or something like that …” OMG. She had mixed up Anthrax with Anaphylaxis.

You know … cause she was a KID.

@christine kincaid

Oh, lordy, lordy, did you have one hand clutching your pearls while you wrote that?

Funny how you’re fully prepared to leap through convoluted what-ifs to get some outrage about a “CHILD” dying when you can point the finger at vaccines yet have repeatedly brushed off the much more likely fatal consequences of not vaccinating.

I’m not going to pretend to speak for Athaic but I for one am perfectly happy with the idea of kids lying to their parents when the alternative is not getting important care for their health and other reasonable avenues have been exhausted. Just like I’d be okay with them lying to their parents to avoid other abusive parenting practices.

Really? You approve of a website telling kids how to lie to get away unsupervised?

Apples to oranges as usual. If a minor is old enough to consent to vaccines and it is legal to administrate them and the child has a lunatic anti-vaxx parent then yes, it’s fine to lie to get their jabs. Are you also saying it would be fine for a consenting minor to have to tell their parents they are getting an abortion or birth control?

As motosubatsu said:

when the alternative is not getting important care for their health and other reasonable avenues have been exhausted.

Which is exactly what this website is about. The first steps which are presented are about the need to exhaust reasonable avenues.
And the last steps are about how to go vaccinated as safely as possible. Including in case of adverse reactions.

I don’t worry overmuch about the harm this website may do. The kids who have merely hesitant or overworked parents may give it another go at convincing them, if they follow the first advice.
If the kids are in a rebellious stage, there are far worse things they will learn to over the internet than getting vaccinated. Wanting to get vaccinated is actually a sign of maturity, or at least to want to abide by some responsibilities. So it’s not a bad thing that there are some good advice available.
Those kids with abusive parents, who most need to read this advice… Don’t worry, they won’t have a chance to read it.

As for your cute story… A total fabrication, as with the rest of your claims. So you really are in no position to tell me anything about the ethics of lying.

I totally support the right of kids to have access to medical care independently of the contraints families impose on them…

Really? You approve of a website telling kids how to lie to get away unsupervised?

Consenting minors are entitled to medical care.

If their parents don’t want them to receive medical care, and they lie to their parents for the sake of family harmony, that is no business of mine and it is NO FECKIN BUSINESS OF CHRISTINE’S, who knows where she can stick her pearls once she has finished clutching them.

What lie? What you linked to was:
Misinformation can spread easily online. Snake-oil peddlers tell scary stories that frighten parents into believing things that aren’t true. Concern with whether things are “natural,” distrust of authority, and lack of information can lead people to question whether vaccines are safe. There are also cases of confirmation bias, such as people blaming tragedies (from SIDS to car accidents) on vaccines. Some people “fall down the rabbit hole” of misinformation and conspiracy theories. In many cases, these people need empathy and compassion, not scorn.

Or were you just hoping to bait people into saying something you could screenshot and use to “prove” your conspiracy theories?

christine “mixed up Anthrax for Anaphylaxis?”

Did this anecdote happen back about 18 years ago?
What teenagers have heard of anthrax these days? (I have teenagers in my house; I asked).

Or maybe you misheard, and the 13-yo simplified the word to something like “anaphlis”?

Look at the first entry under “Method 1”. It explains that a teenager has rights under the law, dependent on the local jurisdiction . Parental power is not absolute (despite what antivaxxers seem to believe). Here is the situation in Canada:

https://www.cmaj.ca/content/191/12/E348

The “mature minor” rule takes precedence, which this website appears to be addressing.

Don’t like it? Tough.

@ TBruce,

Yeah like the ‘mature minor’ in the actual real life scenario who mixed up Anthrax for Anaphylaxis?

M’kay.

@Christine, please explain the “mature minro” doctrine in your own words, to show you actually understand what TBruce is talking about.

A 13 year old uses the wrong word and somehow this is a major issue in whether or not many kids are able to make sensible decisions for themselves regarding getting vaccinated against their parents wishes?! This is especially rich coming from someone who frequently misuses words.

There was one ‘vaccine’ used in the late 70s-early 80s which caused major problems. It was for Hay Fever and, if memory serves was called; Specific Desensitiving Vaccine (SDV).

Patients would be sent for a Patch Test to identify which specific pollens caused them problems and an individual course of jabs were made up for them; increasing in strength as the course of injections progressed. After each jab they would be monitored for 30 minutes.

I went to sea for a couple of years and in casual conversation with my Squadron Medical Officer, I asked what had happened to them. His reply was succinct.

“People don’t die from Hay Fever; they did from the injections”.

Uh, my coworker is getting those now. I mean, my coworker is getting modern allergy desensitization shots to address her extensive airborne environmental allergies which cause her very real pain and suffering. I have to assume that the methods used today are more precise but lots of people get them now and have real relief. My coworker did tell tell me that one time there was another patient who had a reaction, but he was OK (when she left the office).

There are lots of medications given to treat serious but not immediately life-threatening conditions that require a 30 minute (or hour) wait in the office to make sure the patient doesn’t have a reaction.

Did they not have systems in place for treating the reactions back in the 70’s?

I know for a fact they did. My dad got them, when into anaphylactic shock, was treated, and decided that his hay fever, while awful, was better than the shots.

Terrie: Yikes, that sounds super scary. I know part of why my coworker is doing it is because she hasn’t had a bad reaction, but mostly it’s because the allergies (that came on pretty suddenly) were really exacerbating her eye condition, to the point she couldn’t see to function some days. Since seeing is pretty important for working she decided to try the shots and has been really happy with them.

I would never, ever blame someone for not wanting to do the shots, or stopping after a nasty reaction.

Does anyone have the names of those NJ senators opposed to the vaccine bill? Organised communication with government officials is where we sceptics fail and anti-vaxxers excel. This has to change.

@Children’sHD ( RFK jr’s anti-vax twitter) shows the vote board Thursday ( yes/ no/ abstain). In addition, over the past week, he listed senators for his followers to bother, singling out two newer members who I believe both caved. They are extremely displeased with Mr O’Scanlon who was the deciding vote. I imagine that they will continue their activities until the final vote.
The vote was roughly along party lines with Democrats supporting.

Senator Weinberg’s representative said that she was deluged by anti-vax calls.

Wait, it looks like they didn’t cave! Senator Gopal was a yes and Senator Lagana was abstain or didn’t vote.

@ Science Mom:

Perhaps sceptics should reach out to legislators. I explained how people we know understand how groups like Kennedy’s operate which would arm elected officials against their histrionics and how many of the protestors – and their leaders- were not from NJ.
Hopefully, that won’t be necessary for NJ now but there may be other laws coming up or in other states.
Maybe a few demonstrations like these or those in CA will enlighten legislators nationwide.

@Science Mom:

Anti-vaxxers like the aforementioned put out a call for their followers to contact representatives even outside their own areas. In addition, woo-meisters like those at PRN also have their thralls contact governmental officials about various bees-in-their-bonnets..
Because Orac and others have studied altie crap in detail, they could provide useful information for reps. I once enlightened a former White House Cabinet member about being a guest on a woo-tastic fake news outlet.

“There was one ‘vaccine’ used in the late 70s-early 80s which caused major problems. It was for Hay Fever and, if memory serves was called; Specific Desensitiving Vaccine (SDV)…I went to sea for a couple of years and in casual conversation with my Squadron Medical Officer, I asked what had happened to them. His reply was succinct.

“People don’t die from Hay Fever; they did from the injections”.

Immunotherapy for allergies differs from vaccination against infectious diseases in that immunotherapy relies on injecting small and then increasing doses of an allergen, with the aim to decrease IgE response to a level that significant alleviates or eliminates allergic symptoms. Immunotherapy has a good safety profile; allergies themselves can cause fatal anaphylaxis (as in systemic response to bee and wasp stings, which is also treatable via immunotherapy).

There are multiple “vaccines” in development to treat hay fever, which involve modification of antigens but apparently still work on the principle of curtailing IgE responses, i.e. “teaching” the body to respond to pollen (or other sensitizing agent) without making the patient miserable.

https://www.labiotech.eu/biotech-of-the-week/this-hypoallergenic-vaccine-could-alleviate-hay-fever-faster-than-approved-vaccines/

People with a history of only hay fever symptoms absolutely can have anaphylaxis in response to immunotherapy shots. This is why it’s standard to have people stay after the shots, until the time frame for the most serious reactions has passed.

Thanks for that, DB.
I should stress that patients were indeed monitored for 30 minutes (certainly in the Sick Bays where I worked). I can only surmise that Anaphylaxis occurred in GPs surgeries where they probably weren’t as well staffed.

@ motosubatsu

*Oh, lordy, lordy, did you have one hand clutching your pearls while you wrote that

Funny how you’re fully prepared to leap through convoluted what-ifs to get some outrage about a “CHILD” dying when you can point the finger at vaccines yet have repeatedly brushed off the much more likely fatal consequences of not vaccinating*

I had an actual kid in my actual house who actually mixed up Anthrax with Anaphylaxis.

What if she had read that article & acted on it’s highly irresponsible advice?

Please back up your claim that a child with a history of anaphylaxis from vaccines is much more likely to die from a VPD; than from another anaphylactic event?

Remember that the actual practicing pediatrician whose office administers dozens of shots every day has NEVER seen a case of anaphylaxis from a vaccine? Remember that? This is not a significant risk.

Not to mention that a healthcare provider would notice if a teenage patient was confusing anthrax with anaphylaxis and question further to determine the actual information.

@ Terrie,

“please explain the “mature minro” doctrine in your own words, to show you actually understand what TBruce is talking about”

I read it & it’s crap. I was a legally emancipated minor at 16 & I thought I knew it all while in reality I was a disaster. None of the other kids I knew like me were actually mature but rather, we were incorrigible.

If we want to redefine what ‘a minor’ means under the law & decide it should be 16 not 18; I’m fine with that; including vaccines.

I’m not okay with having different ages of consent depending on what entity wants a piece of them. Firearms, tobacco, alcohol, military service & yes; informed consent, etc … should all be the same age.

I was a legally emancipated minor at 16 & I thought I knew it all while in reality I was a disaster.

Walked right into that one.

christine

I’m not okay with having different ages of consent depending on what entity wants a piece of them. Firearms, tobacco, alcohol, military service & yes; informed consent, etc … should all be the same age

And what age should that be?

What about driving? What about sex with someone older than you are?

Let’s hear it, christine: please, pick the age.

@ TBruce,

FFS. “Regardless of whether a province has a suggested age of medical consent, however, the “mature minor rule” applies, explains Dr. Mike Dickinson, past president of the Canadian Paediatric Society. That means a teen can consent to a vaccine if they’re mature enough to understand its risks and benefits. “More important than the age number is the developmental level of the child and their decision-making capacity,” says Dickinson. “One clue might be other reasonable decisions the young adult has made in their life; another might be how they’re functioning at school.”

So somebody who only sees my kids for billable minutes makes that decision. smh

Any teen who has taken the time and effort and initiative to make their own doctor’s appointment has already shown a lot more maturity than plenty of adults I know.

Also, pediatrics is one of the least-well paid specialties of medicine, so chances are excellent the doctor is seeing patients for more than just “billable minutes”.

So somebody who only sees my kids for billable minutes makes that decision.

Funny how the kid’s opinions and wishes don’t count.

“What if someone’s kid DIES because of this advice Athaic? A CHILD; not a grown up who can give informed consent; A CHILD!”

What do you call it when you say or write something but you don’t really understand how it relates to you? Cognitive dissonance? Hypocrisy? Stupidity?

Dozens of children have died in Samoa, thousands in the Democratic Republic of Congo, from measles. Most of them were not immunized out of fear of all the things our current resident antivaxxer is more than happy to spread here and on her social media.

Yeah, what if a kid DIES from those antivax lies? To you, nothing. You’ll wash your hands of it and move on to the next lie while parents are left wondering if autism was really that bad compared to death from measles.

Yep. My thoughts exactly.
If I have tried to bring back the story of Samoa, on which christine kincaid joyfully lied about, my post would have been more incoherent than usual.

Oh, and to answer your question, I will call it ‘evil’.

In particular, Christine was regurging that mendacious fabrication about vaccine shipments arriving in Samoa on “October 1”, and therefore being the cause of the measles outbreak. And now she is whining that a website that tells teenagers how to obtain their entitlement to medical care is encouraging them to lie.
Bless her heart.

And now she is whining that a website that tells teenagers how to obtain their entitlement to medical care is encouraging them to lie.
Bless her heart.

Just goes to show that anti-vaxxers are just fine with lying about vaccines as long as the lies make vaccination look bad but FSM forbid, a lie may be told to obtain healthcare. Zero awareness.

@ René F. Najera, DrPH

Yep, kids die when not vaccinated from vaccine-preventable diseases. One could also add that the overwhelming majority of anaphylactic reactions to injections occur within very short time interval, so still in doctor’s office where epipen available. So, few anaphylactic reactions overall and much much fewer occurring after leaving clinic or doctor’s office. So, weighing benefits to risks of very few cases. Duh, except someone like Christine who would sacrifice untold lives to prevent even the rarest of serious adverse reactions.

By the way, people do suffer anaphylactic shock away from medical care for many different reasons.

By the way, when I gave one example to illustrate Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc Christine rejected the one example, ignored mentioning Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc, a logical fallacy; however, seems she only rejects examples she disagrees with. Besides being stupid, let’s add “hypocrite” to her description.

Okay ya’ll.

You agree with lying when it comes to obtaining a vaccine.

But you disagree with lying to avoid one.

Case in point. Your priority is the product; not principle nor person.

As I said; not the hill I’m going to die on. All but 1 of my 11 are over 18. The 1 who is under 18 does not need an exemption. So carry on.

I’m not sure why I would expect anything resembling respect for parenting from a group whose majority have self-selected themselves for a Darwin Award.

“You agree with lying when it comes to obtaining a vaccine.”

We agree that you’re fantasizing again.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “I’m not sure why I would expect anything resembling respect for parenting from a group whose majority have self-selected themselves for a Darwin Award.”

As usual, you are full of s..t. Nobody that I know who supports vaccinations believes in Social Darwinism. In fact, I and others support vaccinations for the weakest to ensure their survival. Of course, you don’t believe that; but who cares what an idiot like you believes. Perhaps, I shouldn’t call you an idiot; but when you continuously refuse to accept that, even if you disagree with us, that we support vaccines because we believe in them, not to further the profits of an industry or to practice Social Darwinism, then “idiot’ probably isn’t the best description of you; but despicable fits even better.

As for “parenting”, no society I know of gives absolute rights to parents. Parents, for instance, Christian Scientists, who withhold care result in courts removing the child for the needed care. You, of course, not wanting society to interfere, would probably prefer the child go to g-d. Society also has laws about school attendance and about abusing kids, not just sexually or with a belt; but not feeding them adequately, locking them in closet as punishment, etc.

It is typical that you express yourself in absolutes, incapable of adjusting to the real world in your thinking, or better, lack of thinking processes

@ Joel,

As usual, you are full of s..t. Nobody that I know who supports vaccinations believes in Social Darwinism

Lol. You gave me WAY too much credit there. I was being mean & I apologize.

Christian Scientists

Yuck; really? You think I’m a Christian Scientist? I can’t relate to them whatsoever. Lame.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “You think I’m a Christian Scientist? I can’t relate to them whatsoever. Lame.”

As usual you miss the point. I wasn’t referring to you as a Christian Scientist, just as someone who sees thinks in absolutes, so, since you emphasize parenting, ignoring that it isn’t some absolute right, then you would side with Christian Scientist as doing the “parenting” they believe to be right.

You just continue to display how stupid you are. You don’t seem to understand rather simple concepts. You hypocritically point out individual examples I and others use; but use individual examples to make your points.

Do you not understand the difference between “not being completely truthful to people who have denied you medical care for no reason” and “directly lying to a doctor about a medical condition to avoid a vaccine”?

Goodness.

why I would expect anything resembling respect for parenting

On some other blog and another topic, an American wrote this pearl of wisdom:

You ask for respect. That you want is obedience.

@ Athaic,

You ask for respect. That you want is obedience

Not. I would have hoped somebody would have found a tutorial on how to lie to your parents to be disrespectful to parents.

My parents made some ‘bad’ choices but I’m lucky in that I was always their top priority. Some are not as lucky. When I was a kid I did not consider myself that lucky.

In retrospect, everything I ‘had to’ lie to them about involved risk-taking behaviors; some of which put me in mortal danger.

I suppose that I; as a very bad kid would have laughed my ass off at said tutorial. Maybe good kids actually need it, who knows.

You agree with lying when it comes to obtaining a vaccine.

This insistence on parental ownership of chattel-children, and the demand that everyone else should share her outrage when teenagers ignore parental authority while accessing their entitlement to medical care, these are not CK’s most endearing qualities.

As I said, obedience.
Obedience from children, and obedience from everybody else in the universe who should bow down to her narrative.

I was wondering if Christine’s position stems in part by having to care for a disabled child. I could see how that could color her opinions on the necessity of parental control over a child’s life.
Anyway, she is fully into “mommy knows better” mode.

Rebounding from an exchange between her and Terrie in a previous thread:

While she is outraged that a teenager may seek medical treatments on her own, she has no issue about disclosing publicly plenty of medical information about her children.
Parental ownership, indeed.

@ Science Mom,

Are you also saying it would be fine for a consenting minor to have to tell their parents they are getting an abortion or birth control

Okay I’ll admit to a small amount of hypocrisy as I obtained birth control & pre-natal care prior to turning 18.

I did, however; have a friend (also a minor) who obtained oral contraceptives without knowing of a family history of a clotting factor disorder & landed herself in the hospital with a DVT.

What, her parents planned to sit her down and tell her the family medical history on her 18th birthday?

What, her parents planned to sit her down and tell her the family medical history on her 18th birthday?

What kind of parents wouldn’t beat that bit of information into their child’s head from as early on as possible? That doesn’t strengthen your argument Christine. Yes, I know you said this Terrie but addressed to Christine.

@ Terrie,

I don’t know if she had never been told or had been told & forgotten it. Her dad wanted to sue but I’m not sure what the outcome of that was. This was in the 1980s.

What kind of parents wouldn’t beat that bit of information

Let’s be charitable and call them parents who didn’t realize their tiny daughter was turning into a young woman.
And/or, indeed, that she didn’t fully understand it / forgot about it.

Note that this story only support Christine’s position in the case the parents told their teenager why she couldn’t have a specific medical treatment, and the teenager stubbornly decides to have it anyway.
I have a hard time seeing how this could be a regular issue. I mean, I’m not a parent, but come on. you don’t start a conversation with someone about an important medical issue with “you cannot have this treatment” without following it by “instead, here are a few other options which will be available to you”.

If it was purely about moral issues surrounding sex, I can see how parents could be reluctant, but if indeed there are risks related to the health of their child… It’s the parents’ responsibilities to do their upmost about addressing these risks.
(and that includes basing their risk assessment on reality)

No matter what Christine says, we come back to a position where parents are neglecting, for whatever reason, the medical needs of their children.
And in this context, a website providing children with information about said medical needs is not wrong, as long as the information is sound.

@Christine, so basically, the fact that your friend was a minor is a red herring, and you’re just throwing out random anecdotes and hoping to scare people into agreeing with you.

I knew about my family history of serious blood clots and how that related to oral contraceptives from the time I was old enough to know what sex was. Mom wasn’t taking any chances.

Okay I’ll admit to a small amount of hypocrisy as I obtained birth control & pre-natal care prior to turning 18.

That isn’t a small hypocrisy; that completely negates your argument.

@ Science Mom,

I see things differently now, as a parent, than I did when I was a child. That is paramount to my argument. Maybe you are just an older version of your childhood self but I’ve made a lot of mistakes & had to learn many things the hard way.

I was out on my own at 16 & a mother by 17 & HF ASD as well. If I have a strong opinion on something; it’s usually based on experience & mistakes.

I see things differently now, as a parent, than I did when I was a child.

As in it’s okay for you to make medical decisions for yourself as a consenting minor but it’s not okay for others to do it.

Got it.

But I will be right about vaccines.

Antivaxxers have been declaring that they will be vindicated ever since the cowpox vaccine for smallpox was released. Since then, smallpox and rinderpest have been sent into extinction, polio is on the verge of extinction in the wild, deaths from vaccine preventable diseases have fallen by over 99%, and sequelae caused by these diseases (blindness, deafness, organ damage, encephalitis, encephalopathy, paralysis and sterility) are now almost unknown.
Wakefield is a proven liar who was hired to build a case that MMR was causing autism. Despite loading the deck as hard as he could, the data showed it didn’t so he cooked his results. Further to this, he tried to set up companies to benefit from the panic he caused.
Don’t hold your breath.

Yeah, still have in my email archives this gem from April 2004 when I was in a listserv for my son’s speech disorder:

“I just returned from the DAN! conference where about 1000 people heard many doctors and researchers talk of the problems caused by thimerisol. There is a lot of research showing that it is causing our autism epidemic. You can beleive what you want but please don’t stop people from researching vaccines and thimerisol before vaccinating their kids. People like you are dangerous. I just wish someone had educated me on the possible problems of vaccinations before i had my son vaccinated. He is now autistic. The Autism Research Institute is a REAL place and you are showing your ignorance by your statement. It is difficult enough to be a parent of an autistic child but to hear others treat us like we are spewing garbage is very upsetting. We are talking about the truth and soon it will proven.”

So, yeah… the claim that they will prove vaccines cause autism has gotten so old it is rotting to its core making a huge stink.

I left that listserv a few months later, and two after that this happened (my ‘nym was HCN in the comments): http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/08/sadly-it-was-only-matter-of-time.html

Hi Julian,

No I’m not holding my breath. It will take a while.

First Evidence of Immune Response Targeting Brain Cells In Autism Published in October, 2019
https://neurosciencenews.com/immune-cells-autism-15086/?fbclid=IwAR21THR9WXbJEDbnyYTdyGuXlYJzKFF6HTpHz9DfobDoXxBaHAw8kxB8gSY

No mention in utero. No Mombies. I said as much in 2018. Not here, I don’t think.

*Anderson was examining brains donated to Autism BrainNet, a non-profit tissue bank, when he noticed the presence of perivascular lymphocyte cuffs – an accumulation of immune cells surrounding blood vessels in the brain. He also noted mysterious bubbles or blisters that scientists call blebs accumulating around these cuffed blood vessels. Anderson and colleagues subsequently found these blebs contained debris from a subset of brain cells called astrocytes.

Not previously linked to autism, perivascular lymphocyte cuffing is a well-known indicator of chronic inflammation in the brain*

Now I have seen a LOT of scoffing HERE about people who claim their child’s brain has ‘suffered neuroinflammation’ & ‘chronic inflammation’ & while this paper does not mention vaccines; it’s nice to see all those guffaws slapped down. It is to me at least. Very validating.

First Evidence of Immune Response Targeting Brain Cells In Autism Published in October, 2019

Have you forgotten the last time around? I suppose these things can happen when one is simply mining Bookface for links.

We had discussion of this paper here. First thing to mention is that Anderson admits that autism is genetic, control group excludes everyone who have siblings with autism. Secondly, cuffing could mean that immune system removes weakened cells,
As I said before, explain why autism is more prevalent amongst boys and twin studies,

Keep on dreaming.
The only moment when you are right about vaccines is when you finally discover vaccines are not causing all those nasty things, you think.
But alas I doubt this will ever happen.

@ coschristi

You write: “But I will be right about vaccines”. Must be nice to be so absolutely certain, especially given how I and others during several exchanges have shown just how wrong you are on various issues.

The one thing you and almost ALL antivaccinationists don’t or won’t understand is that there is NO autism epidemic. I explained this in a previous exchange under heading HIDING IN PLAIN SIGHT. For instance, if one looks at many descriptions of kids, prior to advent of term autism, who were labeled childhood schizophrenia or mentally retarded, many today would be labeled ASD. Just one example.

I use term “stupid” not to describe someone’s innate intelligence. There are people far more intelligent genetically than me who are rabid racists, refuse to even consider all the studies that refute racial differences. For me, “stupid” represents a closed mind, someone who “knows” they are absolutely right and ignores, twists anything that contradicts them. As an old saying goes: “A Mind is a Terrible Thing to Waste.”

An excellent book that deals with the psychology of why people refuse to change their opinions, etc, even if hurts them, despite not even knowing how the opinion was formed in the first place is:

Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson. Mistakes Were Made (but NOT by me). 2nd edition

@ Athaic,

Note that this story only support Christine’s position in the case the parents told their teenager why she couldn’t have a specific medical treatment, and the teenager stubbornly decides to have it anyway

The parents didn’t know SHE had it; they knew of the family history. She did not know there was a history.

She didn’t TELL them she wanted birth control first; she was afraid to. IF she had & IF the parents knew that oral contraceptives were contraindicated; I’m sure they would have told her no.

I’m not sure THEY knew it was a contraindication until after she was in the hospital & the doctors asked the PARENTS about the family medical history.

That’s why her dad wanted to sue. HE was stuck with the hospital bill that resulted from his daughter developing a life-threatening complication after taking a medication she never should have been given.

So, let’s play this out. Suppose she had parents who would have been fine with her taking birth control, either because they accept that teenagers sometimes engage in sexual behavior, or because this was a cause of prescribing it for menstrual cramps. Would that have prevented the outcome? No, because the parents hadn’t shared the family medical history with their daughter.

So the moral of your tale has nothing to do with minors seeking medical care their parents have neglected, and everything to do with the importance of parents making sure children know the family medical history.

@ Joel:

Some people are immune to education and even your inoculations using research and data will not improve their comprehension: the antigen load surpasses their capacity for assimilation
As you say:
there is no autism epidemic because of diagnostic substitution but increased “visibility” because of de-institutionalistion.
There is no relationship between vaccines and autism ( many studies)
As I’ve written:
autism begins prenatally** when particular parts of the brain develop and there are early indicators before vaccines
Chris has shown genetic data and asks which vaccine cause more harm than the VPD it covers ?
Others link to particular studies. ( Sorry if I can’t recall who said what)

In other words, there are many avenues that lead to the answer.
But anti-vaxxers can’t accept any because they negate their identity and raison d’etre

Skeptical Raptor just replayed a post wherein he addresses the anti-vax talking point ” Doctors don’t study vaccines” which truly gets to the heart of their misconceptions: he outlines what they actually *do study- course by course which he contrasts to anti-vax proselytisers’ superficial scratching at the surface and pick and choose methodology. Some of them give themselves away when they get simple concepts wrong*

Someone ( hint, hint) should compile the many responses to anti-vax hysterical reactions, ( Although I know they’ll just find something else to distract from the discussion). But you sure do do a bang up job!

** those who study the brain study animal development, cases of preterm death, interference during pregnancy because of poisons, viruses, medication, lack of vitamins which show specific time frames Other factors that are related to autism include parental age, mother’s weight, birth order, pregnancies too close together, pollution etc

.

christine

<

blockquote>HE was stuck with the hospital bill that resulted from his daughter developing a life-threatening complication after taking a medication she never should have been given

HE is not the victim here. Your friend is. She, according to you, had an adverse medical event because she could not trust her parents, and this is because her parents did not trust her.

Yes, I understand it was the 80s – but this could have turned out so many other ways that would not lead to a bad outcome.

But I will be right about vaccines.

You have written that you were perhaps fifteen feet away from a gigantic pterosaur-like creature that with one mighty percussive flap of its leathery wings (a thirty-foot wingspan!) knocked you backwards through a door.

I’m sure that you think that you are right about that, too.

@ brian,

Lol, it was massive. Four years before that a pilot in Alaska saw it gliding along side him about 1,000 ft away from his plane & said it was every bit as big as his plane was. That same day a ground utility worker saw it overhead & radioed the nearby village (Togiak) to tell them to bring the children inside.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/West/10/18/offbeat.alaska.bird.reut/

That event rattled me to my core. I wouldn’t even try to research it & did’t tell anyone about it for a year.

And it’s wings didn’t knock me backwards. The wings cupped the air in a peculiar way which enabled it to launch itself straight up off the roof. The air hit me like a wall & made a sound like a bass drum.

It glided over the tree in the front yard, across the street & over the neighbors house without another flap & it was every bit as long as the house below it was. Then it screeched really loud. Not a high pitched screech like an owl though. I’ve never heard anything like it.

I don’t care if to say it invalidates me regarding anything else. I have no answers or explanations.

@ brian:

Hey, some people witness giant flying reptiles but dispute the existence of autism researchers like Courchesne, Aldridge and Miles.
Chacon au son gout.

That event rattled me to my core. I wouldn’t even try to research it & did’t tell anyone about it for a year.

What’s the matter, Bigfoot sightings are too hackneyed for you? Good grief the things you believe.

Bing tells us that the greatest wingspan of any living bird is just under 12′ ( an Albatross) although certain swans may have spans around 10′. Bing also informs us that the biggest domestic cats in the world are about 48″ long or weigh about 44-48 lbs, your choice of measure.
Now if I told you that my semi-feral cat** was 6 feet long or 75 lbs would you believe anything else I wrote here about psychology, medicine or personal issues?

** I doubt he is more than 9-10 lbs.

Now if I told you that my semi-feral cat** was 6 feet long or 75 lbs would you believe anything else I wrote here about psychology, medicine or personal issues?

If you wrote that I’d think you were nearly as deluded as Christine/cochristi, who told a friend “I think I just saw a Pterodactyl” and posted this about the creature “with an almost 30ft wingspan” on her roof :

I’ve always thought that what I saw had wings more skin-like than feathered due to the “unfurling” sound it made on the outstretch of the wings combined with the eardrum popping”boom” it made on the downswing combined with the force of air that knocked me backwards.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/unexplained-mysteries-paranormal/2677649-i-think-bird-back-here-5.html

@ brian:

Presently, I am imagining what it would be like to have a 75 lb totally black, semi-feral cat sitting outside my door requesting chicken.

@ JustaTech,

I would never, ever blame someone for not wanting to do the shots, or stopping after a nasty reaction

Really.

@ Denice,

Hey, some people witness giant flying reptiles

I really don’t believe that is an antivax thing. And I have no idea if it was a reptile. It was at night & it looked like a dark bird. It’s size & the way it launched was anomalous.

Heheh. Vaccine Papers removed the article, which is, of course, why I used the Archive.org link and liberally quoted from it. Note that I also saved a copy of the whole thing. Here was the original link, which returns a 404 “Page Not Found” error.

I wonder what the rate of anaphylaxis is per DOSE of peanuts.

Or if any doctor has ever observed the start of an anaphylactic reaction to peanuts. Do they take the parents word that the kid was fine until that first bite of a PB&J?

A hospital didn’t diagnose my daughter’s nut allergy because I noticed her drooling before the swelling was evident & managed to get oral Benadryl down her. Luckily; she had only taken one bite & the Benadryl was fantastically effective.

I was on the phone with the pediatrician’s after hours triage as soon as she was stable. They called in the epi-pen script for me. Just like that.

Kinda strange how I was considered such a credible witness to THAT reaction.

And thank God she doesn’t need a medical exemption to refrain from nuts. The few accidental ingestions have been bad enough. Good thing that nuts don’t protect against the measles.

@ Christine Kincaid

So, do you believe vaccines responsible for peanut allergies? It might interest you to know that they “prevent” many peanut allergies by evaluating certain types prone to develop allergies, then begin at very early age with very small doses of peanuts, increasing gradually. And they get ALL their regular shots at regular times. See:
National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (2017 Jan). Addendum Guidelines for the Prevention of
Peanut Allergy in the United States: Summary for Parents and Caregivers. Available at: https://www.niaid.nih.gov/sites/default/files/peanut-allergy-prevention-guidelines-parent-summary.pdf

This is based on extensive research. Does it prevent peanut allergies in every single child? Nope, so, then the few remaining must be caused by vaccines, at least, in your mind; but peanut allergies did exist prior to many vaccines.

From Wikipedia. Peanut Allergy: “Peanut allergies are uncommon in children of undeveloped countries where peanut products have been used to relieve malnutrition. The hygiene hypothesis proposes that the relatively low incidence of childhood peanut allergies in undeveloped countries is a result of exposure to diverse food sources early in life, increasing immune capability, whereas food selection by children in developed countries is more limited, reducing immune capability. . . When infants consume peanut proteins while 4 to 11 months old, the risk of developing peanut allergy before the age of 5 years decreases by 11-25%, specifically in children with higher allergy risk via their parents with peanut allergy. From these results, the American Academy of Pediatrics rescinded their recommendation to delay exposure to peanuts in children, also stating there is no reason to avoid peanuts during pregnancy or breastfeeding.”

@ Joel,

No my comment wasn’t about vaccines causing peanut allergies.

@ Terrie,

No; It’s a good thing peanut reactions are not treated the same way vaccine reactions are.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “A hospital didn’t diagnose my daughter’s nut allergy because I noticed her drooling before the swelling was evident & managed to get oral Benadryl down her. Luckily; she had only taken one bite & the Benadryl was fantastically effective. . .Kinda strange how I was considered such a credible witness to THAT reaction.”

Wrong again! ! !

As the following, and I have more, makes clear, Benadryl doesn’t help a case of anaphylactic shock, just run of the mill allergies. So, your kid may have had a mild reaction to the peanut or something else; but, of course you focused on the peanut because you had heard of or read about peanut allergies, once more Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc. There are always many things that precede an event and everyone notices only one or two of them. As for getting a prescription for an epi-pen, means little more than the pediatrician either wanted to err on the side of caution or get rid of a hysterical mother, given than an epi-pen is “reasonably” not dangerous.

“Diphenhydramine (benadryl) (50 mg/mL) – Secondary drug to administer in addition to epinephrine to treat symptoms such as pruritus, erythema, urticaria. Remember: never give diphenhydramine alone or before epinephrine.” [Government of Manitoba (2007 Nov). Protocol for Management of Suspected Anaphylactic Shock. Available at: https://www.gov.mb.ca/health/publichealth/cdc/protocol/anaphylactic.pdf ]

“Antihistamines do not treat anaphylaxis and have no life-saving capacity – if an anaphylactic reaction is occurring, give epinephrine immediately.” [Food Allergy Research and Education (2014 Sep 12). Know the Difference: Epinephrine vs. Antihistamines [Available at: https://www.foodallergy.org/about-fare/blog/know-the-difference-epinephrine-vs-antihistamines

Last time I looked, none of the old H1 antihistamines, diphenhydramine among them, are recommended anymore for treatment of anaphylaxis because they cause drowsiness that can be a problem with continuing treatments that might be required until the reaction has been resolved.

@ Joel,

Yeah, Benadryl didn’t work so well over the summer when she bought some damn bottled chai tea that she didn’t realize had almond milk in it on the way to work.

One sip. ONE sip & her eyes got really wide & she says ‘Oh this has nuts in it”. I had Benadryl in the car, gave it to her on the way to the ER & it didn’t even slow down the reaction.

Four shots of epinephrine, IV steroids, lots of vomiting & 8 hours later she was stable.

Yeah, Joel. She has a nut allergy.

Disclaimer: haven’t read the comments yet.

If you have to lie to support your position, you need to re-think your position.

@ coschristi

Peanuts are NOT nuts. They are legumes, like peas. Almonds are nuts. So Christine clearly stated “peanut.” So, what point are you trying to make? That I was right that Benadryl doesn’t help if anaphylactic shock? So, if your kid has an allergy to nuts, I’m truly sorry; but, again, Christine was WRONG!

Though irrelevant, I put a tablespoon of peanut butter in a Kong (a red hollow rubber toy), put in freezer, and give to my dog as a treat. He likes licking the frozen peanut butter. Peanuts are harmless to dogs; but real nuts can cause kidney damage. So, while I love crunchy almond butter on celery stalks, I am super careful that my dog only gets peanuts.

@ Chris

Are you sure? Why does she post using two different names? I guess nothing surprises me anymore???

Because some us said we were no longer going to deal with her drama, so she changed it. Then I accidentally replied to her, and as I read through I recognized it was her.

I am back to ignoring her because there is no point in engaging her delusions.

@ Joel,

She reacts to peanuts, walnuts, almonds & ginger with classic anaphylactic symptoms of facial edema, oral-pharyngeal swelling & vomiting.

She is usually really good about checking labels. The chai tea ingredient was a surprise, she thought it was regular tea & didn’t look. If she wouldn’t have sipped it first in the car, it would have happened at the pool where she was a lifeguard. Luckily, we were less than a mile away from the hospital. Happened two weeks before she left for college & it makes me nervous for her to be so far away.

christine “oh I forgot to mention she is a twin & her epipen was in her sisters bag”
Pay for another epi-pen.
Are you going to send her to college without one?

I sincerely hope you are just making up most of what you’ve posted.

“Why does she post using two different names?”

To get twice the attention.

What’s the maximum number of sock puppets permissible on RI?

I’m not a sock puppet. My avatar is exactly the same. I think it’s because I’m signing in with my google account. It’s actually a little creepy for me that it is doing that because I don’t believe I set it that way but coschristi is a nym I’ve used elsewhere since the late 1990’s.

I wouldn’t regard using two different nyms as de facto sockpuppeting. She has made no effort to pretend to be two different persons. “Real” sockpuppets often do that so they can appear to support the opinions expressed by each other. With her very first post under the alternate nym I realized she was the same person because her misuse of punctuation is very conspicuous in many of her posts. Her writing has other “tells.”

@ christine kincaid/coschristi

You write: “OMG it’s actually alternating. I haven’t a clue.”

You act surprised that when you post comments, two different names are used. Do you really want us to believe that you NEVER noticed and attempted to correct this?

As christine kincaid you wrote: “Or if any doctor has ever observed the start of an anaphylactic reaction to peanuts. Do they take the parents word that the kid was fine until that first bite of a PB&J? A hospital didn’t diagnose my daughter’s nut allergy because I noticed her drooling before the swelling was evident & managed to get oral Benadryl down her. Luckily; she had only taken one bite & the Benadryl was fantastically effective.”

Then I pointed out that Benadryl would NOT have helped against anaphylactic reaction, so, at best your daughter experienced a run-of-the-mill allergic reaction, nothing life-threatening.

So, then you posted as cochristi: “Yeah, Benadryl didn’t work so well over the summer when she bought some damn bottled chai tea that she didn’t realize had almond milk in it on the way to work. One sip. ONE sip & her eyes got really wide & she says ‘Oh this has nuts in it”. I had Benadryl in the car, gave it to her on the way to the ER & it didn’t even slow down the reaction. Four shots of epinephrine, IV steroids, lots of vomiting & 8 hours later she was stable. Yeah, Joel. She has a nut allergy.”

“She reacts to peanuts, walnuts, almonds & ginger with classic anaphylactic symptoms of facial edema, oral-pharyngeal swelling & vomiting.”

Whether she has a nut allergy or not, your first comment as christine kincaid stated an “anaphylactic reaction to peanuts” handled easily with one oral dose of Benadryl. Then you claim she reacts to peanuts, etc with “classic anaphylactic symptoms”. Your original comment where it was easily handled with Benadryl clearly indicates it was NOT a “classic anaphylactic reaction”. Now, you ignore that I pointed out that peanuts are NOT nuts, but legumes, so you change to she has both a peanut and nut allergy, almonds are nuts, which Benadryl doesn’t help, so, why did it help with a peanut? Are you so STUPID you don’t see the inconsistency in what you write. If she has a nut allergy I’m sorry; but it doesn’t change the fact that you just change your testimony and the name you posted as well.

And it also doesn’t change the fact that you dismiss anecdotes that I and others use; but use anecdotes to support your position. Not only STUPID; but HYPOCRITICAL as well.

Hang on Joel. In fairness to Christine, I signed in to WordPress and forgot to sign out, so one of my comments here showed as “autismjungle” (my WordPress ID) and not my real name. When I signed out, it went back to showing my name. This may be a similar situation.

@ Julian

If this only happened a few time, OK; but with Christine this has happened over many exchanges and, literally, probably well over 50 times. At some point she, at least most people, would have noticed it and done something. In addition, you miss the main point, namely, that under two different names she contradicts herself.

Here’s an interesting figure from Dr Jesse Hackell ( via @ doritmi):
only about 1-3% of parents are anti-vaxxers but perhaps 25% are “hesitant” or worried about vaccines. I’m not sure where he got those numbers but they seem in line to those I found several years ago from a national poll. AS we know, only a few states have non-medical exemptions above 4% ( perhaps Oregon and Idaho); NJ has 2.5% IIRC.of students, not parents.
We should remember that whenever they talk about the “thousands” who attend protests: when news sources say “hundreds”.

They made a string effort, again, to bring in activists from all around the country. They had people from Ohio, California, Washington state, and lots of people from New York. The activist who got arrested when she tried to physically force her way into a room was from New York.

Now they’re trying to fund raise to bring others from out of state in.

And that’s the extent of their national mobilization here. They’re a tiny minority, though engaged and vocal; the problem is great they congregate, creating pockets of risks

@ Science Mom,
Bigfoot sightings are too hackneyed for you

I guess I’m not cool enough for Bigfoot. I got Big Bird.

It has nothing to do with ‘believing’. I had never heard of such a thing before. I only found the reports from Alaska (& Texas & Illinois in the 1970s) a few years ago; after I saw it.

I have actually tried to argue with paranormal enthusiasts who believe the ‘cattle mutilations’ here in Colorado are caused by ‘ET” (aliens) that those events are actually just normal animal predation. Big bird; big appetite & it was certainly big enough to account for the cows they find dropped over fences & the shattered vertebra so common at the scene.

They don’t want to hear it. They are convinced that aliens in spaceships are obsessed with cow pieces & parts so that’s … whatever.

@ Joel,

I think it’s happening when I post from my laptop as opposed to the PC. I’m on my laptop now & I just noticed it says ‘commenting using your WordPress account’. I’m going to try logging out before I post. Of course it wasn’t intentional, good grief!

@ Christine

You still fail to explain how you NEVER noticed it over many many comments AND you continue to ignore me pointing out that you were wrong claiming an episode with a peanut was anaphylaxis when easily handled with one oral dose of Benadryl. Of course, not just you; but most antivaccinationists and others who reject science do the same; that is, ignore most of what others say and hone in a one or two. Just another example of DISHONESTY.

@ Joel,

I’m not dishonest. You are being pedantic.

The Benadryl worked when she was 3. It does not (or did not) work at age 18.

And I noticed the ‘coschristi’ just a few days ago. It’s fixed now, thanks to Julian’s comment about WordPress.

So as I’ve mentioned 3 times, it’s fixed but you have not accounted for that Dorit Reiss = doritmi & that is not a issue for you; primarily, I believe, because she is pro-vax & I am antivax.

Meaning that you haven’t likely critically thought through any point I’ve made on any topic & it is YOU who has closed your mind; not I.

So as I’ve mentioned 3 times, it’s fixed but you have not accounted for that Dorit Reiss = doritmi & that is not a issue for you; primarily, I believe, because she is pro-vax & I am antivax.

I don’t know why it’s an issue for anyone, given that it was bleeding obvious. However….

Meaning that you haven’t likely critically thought through any point I’ve made on any topic & it is YOU who has closed your mind; not I [sic].

Way to snatch defeat from the jaws of nothing much.

They don’t want to hear it. They are convinced that aliens in spaceships are obsessed with cow pieces & parts so that’s … whatever.

Criticising others’ crazy delusions don’t make your own crazy delusions more credible.

@ Science Mom,

No comparison. Those ET enthusiasts heard about specific evidence at mutilation sites & decided it was aliens because the cows had been dropped from a height.

I saw something huge & asked myself how something that size could sustain itself. It wasn’t until I heard in the mainstream media that the mutilation cases had started again in two counties just south of mine that I wondered if that was the answer.

The mutilations themselves are not a delusion. They have been an ongoing issue for our southern Colorado counties where the primary revenue comes from ranching. These cows are worth a lot; they are these ranchers investments. The FBI is involved. Law Enforcement agencies have had rewards posted for decades. 2006 was not a good year for the ranching community here.

I can’t not respond but this is annoying.

No comparison. Those ET enthusiasts heard about specific evidence at mutilation sites & decided it was aliens because the cows had been dropped from a height.

I saw something huge & asked myself how something that size could sustain itself.

Aliens are a bridge too far to explain cow mutilations so it must be the pterodactyl you thought you and a few other kooks saw.

Mmm hmm,

@ Christine

If the Benadryl worked at age 3, then it WASN’T ANAPHYLAXIS, which is what you claimed it was. You are so full of s..t!

As for just noticing it a few days ago, it has been going on ever since I noticed you posting comments. Are you that blind and/or dense???

@ Joel,

I can be dense but typically I am easily distracted. Most here ARE blind from pro-vax propaganda; to the point of ironic & contradictory behavior. Like This:

Christine's wordpress signs her as coschristi = I'm a sockpuppet.

Dorit is aka doritmi. = Crickets.

I say that vaccines (antigens delivered by needles) are causing cytokine storms capable of causing serious adverse events = I am laughed off the forum.

JustaTech states on another thread that acupuncture (inert) needles could be elevating cytokines unnecessarily, which ‘sounds like an autoimmune reaction’ = No disagreements here!

“Why on earth do those rat-zapping researchers seem to think it’s a good thing to go around having your cytokines increase in the absence of an infection? Like, they’re not harmless, you only want them elevated if there is an infection to fight. Otherwise that sounds like an auto-immune reaction (bad).”
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2020/01/10/uchealth-making-pseudoscientific-claims-about-acupuncture/

I remind that Aaby's work questions that the DTP could be lowering immune-response to other pathogens. I state that this is curious as to the findings of other pathogens (herpes 6) upon autopsy of SIDS victims = I am stupid & have no comprehension.

Aarno writes (also other thread): “So trauma (the acupuncture needles) boosts immune system. Any disease has exactly same effect, this is how immune system works. However, if immune system faces two challenges, second one would be blunted. This is to avoid overreaction.” = It’s all good.

I say that I will not further vaccinate because I have one child dead & another disabled after being vaccinated = I am a sadistic child killer.

Terrie states her dad suffered anaphylaxis (but did not die) after allergy shots = JustaTech replies; “I would never, ever blame someone for not wanting to do the shots, or stopping after a nasty reaction.”

How anyone could be missing this is beyond me. You are blinded by the vaccines. Figuratively not literally.

Reads carefully

sigh

OK, I see why you could be confused.

Re: sockpupetting
It”s really bad manner when one does so. And we have regularly a few trolls going that way. So, in short, we overreacted.
If the two nym’s are like enough. well, mistakes can happen, and we can see who said that. The autofill system can put in the wrong e-mail or name, so I can see how the mistake can be made.
OTOH, as we answered to you using the last nym’ you used, you certainly are oblivious to your surrendings.

Also, Doris chimed in downthread.

Re: Cytokines
The key word is infection. And nuance.
A vaccine is meant to simulate an infection, so of course we want some cytokines flaring around. Not too much, but enough for the immune system to do its job.
And at some point the reaction is supposed to be over and the levels of cytokines to go down to normal.
With acupuncture, there is (hopefully) no infection on-going, so cytokine signaling going around are useless. All risk, no known benefit. Also, think about the “crying wolf story”.
(although, in biology, things are never simple – there are immunologists who wonder if triggering an immune reaction with false signals of infection or a harmless bacteria may help the body fights other infections, or even cancer, by rising the immune system’s activity level)

And while you are quick to equate immune reaction = vaccines, all the stuff you are talking about fail to establish the connection. Because there are plenty of other things, beside vaccines, which trigger immune reactions on a daily basis.

sigh

Forget that, I don’t have the time.

Seriously? Have your conversations in one place, don’t randomly cross-post and expect anyone to keep up with you.
Fine. 1) Rats. 2) That’s what the acupuncturists said about their study. Who knows if it is true, or if those increases are biologically relevant? Also, if you don’t understand the difference between a (hopefully) sterile acupuncture needle and a vaccine, gosh, you’ve got a lot of reading to do.

Seasonal pollen allergies are not contagious and generally not fatal (unless you crash your car while sneezing). So of course getting allergy shots is optional. And of course it is reasonable to stop after a reaction. That’s the root of the whole medical exemption we’re talking about here.

You know what happens when people lie about their serious allergies all the time? Other people stop caring. Food preparation places stop being so careful. And then people with real allergies get sick, because Becky doesn’t like tomatoes, but won’t just say “I don’t like tomatoes”.

@Christine KIncaid You have still not answered my question: why is autism so much more prevalent amongst boys ? And comment twin studies, too.
Speaking about SIDS, if you are into cytokines, a serious inflammation really releases them.
And inflammation and anaphylaxis are not same thing. Anaphylaxis is not how immune system normally works, actually it is difficult to explain why such reaction exist.

@ Christine

In a previous exchange, you wrote: “I’ve heard all sorts of different versions of that That One Time When A Baby Died BEFORE It’s Shots! That’s 1:3,999? Not impressed.”

I had given, as an example, that a young researcher took his infant to get vaccinated, line long, decided to return another day, infant died that night of SIDS. Researcher said if had gotten shots would have been difficult to NOT believe vaccine responsible. An example of Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc false logic. You respond with “1:3,999”. Where did you get the ratio? Did you pull it out of your arse? And if it was worth my while, I could find many more similar examples where an infant died of SIDS without having recently received any vaccination. Besides the fact that SIDS has decreased exponentially since 1990s due to recommendations, among others, no blankets, other objects in crib, placing infant on back, while number of vaccines has increased, you ignore this. You also ignore that there exists approximately 7,000 rare genetic disorders. I repeat, 7,000 rare genetic disorders. I gave a couple in a comment that lead to changes in behaviors at specific times in infants lives. If they happened to get vaccinated around that time, Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc, that is, the behaviors were genetically programmed and would have changed regardless of other things that happened shortly before.There are more and more to come. Again, you ignore this.

As for being impressed, I doubt anyone with half of brain would be impressed with your illogic, your making up facts, your contradictions, your ignoring, not directly responding to what others write, at least, not most points, etc.

As for Dorit Reiss, Doritme, I agree that she should clean it up to just one name on comments. However, my criticism of you having two names is that it seemed that some of your contradictions, ignoring what I wrote were posted by the other name than the one I was responding to. As far as I can tell, Dorit is consistent. So, NO, at least as far as I’m concerned, was my criticism of your two comment names because you are antivaccinationist; but because it seemed slightly different personas were represented. But, of course, as all antivaccinationists, you would take it as such, part of your paranoia.

@ Joel,

I had given, as an example, that a young researcher took his infant to get vaccinated, line long, decided to return another day, infant died that night of SIDS. Researcher said if had gotten shots would have been difficult to NOT believe vaccine responsible. An example of Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc false logic. You respond with “1:3,999”. Where did you get the ratio? Did you pull it out of your arse?

It came from 4,000 SIDS deaths per year. Many many many of which the parents blame vaccines for. Are you giving me an example of “Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc false logic” to counter my own supposed Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc false logic?

If majority ruled; MY Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc false logic (omg) trumps his 4,000 to 1.

You also ignore that there exists approximately 7,000 rare genetic disorders. I repeat, 7,000 rare genetic disorders. I gave a couple in a comment that lead to changes in behaviors at specific times in infants lives. If they happened to get vaccinated around that time, Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc, that is, the behaviors were genetically programmed and would have changed regardless of other things that happened shortly before.

I’m not ignoring this I agree that there are over 7,000 rare genetic disorders that ‘lead to changes in behaviors at specific times in infants lives’. What I also believe; is that that a specific genotype related to SIDS & ASD are loading the gun & the vaccines are pulling the trigger.

And that that particular genotype is not actually rare.

I changed my avatar to a not as blurry one so that it would be more recognizable in case I miss that my nym appeared differently. It’s a dumb pic but easier to see. Since posting from my laptop, caused this, you are right that it was going on for a while.

This is just so frustrating to me. I remember your blog. I always thought you wrote really well & had refreshing views. It makes me sad that you think I am stupid. I need to work on how I reply. I’m better than I was a few years ago, when I would actually avoid trying to see if someone answered me, lol. That used to terrify me that I might have to reciprocate if I dared to actually say something.

@ Christine

You write: “It came from 4,000 SIDS deaths per year. Many many many of which the parents blame vaccines for.”

In the previous exchange I wrote: “From the CDC:

‘In 2017, there were 3,600 sudden unexpected infant deaths (SUID) in the United States [not 4,000]. These deaths occur among infants less than 1 year old and have no immediately obvious cause. In 2017, there were about 1,400 deaths due to SIDS, about 1,300 deaths due to unknown causes, and about 900 deaths due to accidental suffocation and strangulation in bed.’

So, 900 were suffocation and strangulation, certainly NOT caused by cytokines. Only 1,400 were classified as SIDS. While even one is tragic, less than half your idiotic claim.”

So, again, you ignore what I wrote. Another anecdote about a mother who slept with her infant, suffocated the infant, and, yep, blamed vaccines. It was in the news. So, at best, around 1/3 of your 4,000 deaths were SIDS death, unless you consider suffocation, etc. Do you? And, I’d be willing to bet that several of the parents who blamed vaccines were actually negligent in leaving infant sleeping on stomach or with paraphernalia in crib. Blaming vaccines is a great way to alleviate ones guilt, even ignoring possibility of genetics.

And Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc applies to large groups. In fact, applies more because once one or two anecdotes out there, then others remember them and apply them. Again, as I’ve mentioned before, studies where one found videotapes or 8 mm films of children prior to getting vaccinated found definite autism-like behaviors. And, as I pointed out, genetic disorders can manifest themselves at specific times and if these times occur when vaccines given, Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.

False logic isn’t confined to the rare individual. Actually most people who don’t study scientific method and critical thinking are prone to it. Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc is just one example.

As Ben Goldacre quotes in his book “Bad Science”, “The real purpose of the scientific method is to make sure nature hasn’t misled you into thinking you know something you actually don’t know” p. 172

Even today, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, many Americans believe darker races are less intelligent, less moral, etc. Totally wrong. But it is self-serving. I’ve a dozen books and 100s of research articles. And despite the fact that almost all mass killings in U.S. are by white “Christians”, newspapers mention if Muslim, Middle Eastern, Afro-American, Hispanic. Remember The Murrow Building in Oklahoma City 1995. Prior to 9/11 the worse mass killing in American history. Timothy McVee was WHITE CHRISTIAN. Doesn’t mean the vast majority of white Christians are anything but good people; but I’m just making a point. And trying to argue with Americans that believe various prejudices is usually an exercise in futility, exactly as trying to discuss things with you. Blaming vaccines is also self-serving as it removes guilt, either having neglected to follow safe crib practices or possibility ones genetics.

I think you are describing two cases where vaccines were blamed:
— she went to Del to relate her story ( Orac related it). When I read more about the case, it was obvious that the infant was on her face ( where blood pooled after death) , But still.. it was vaccines!
— the other sounds like Cedillo: the parents presented the Special Masters with video evidence of her “normalcy” which in fact revealed that she behaved/ moved like autistic children**.

I recently found a “16 signs by 16 months” website which outlines many of the interactional signs of autism, many before 1 year. Psych profs always talked about the first “social smile”, this and other signs like reactions to name, pointing ,gaze, use of toys etc.

** videos can also reveal extremely early indications of schizophrenia a decade or more prior to dx.

@ Denice,

I know that mother. I have seen & read the actual report. The baby was found face up. There was no pooling blood. There was a dried blood bubble under one nare.

The medical examiner altered the report after the VAERS report was filed.

Here is the police report. It mentions pooling of the blood in chest and arm. The mother claimed the baby was found on her back – that’s not quite the same: at the very least, the mother would be in (understandable) shock.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6427394-Clobes-Death-Police-Investigation.html

The ME re-examined the case after the mother asked and insisted on re-examination, trying to get her to blame vaccines. Here are her conclusions.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6427421-ME-Letter-to-Clobes-Redacted.html

@ Dorit:

Thanks.
Christine’s reading comprehension and powers of direct observation leave a lot to be desired.
She should seek out professional help rather than utilise RI as a free counselling/ group therapy/ venting service.
Orac is too kind,

It is apparent to me that “pooling of blood” in this case is in reference to livor mortis, not “free” blood.

As a pathologist, I can confidently confirm that the infant was lying face down at the time of death, based on both of the reports. The second report by the medical examiner essentially agrees with the first. No ‘alteration” of consequence was done,

@ TBruce,

The baby was found on her back. The anterior livor mortis was in an armpit & minimal compared to the posterior. In an armpit. Could this not indicate supine with head turned to the side?

What he said was that the police report – which is not written by the Medical Examiner Ms. Clobes is so obviously angry with – doesn’t support your belief that baby was found on her back, or the other claims.

I understand that Ms. Clobes is distressed. I understand you desperately want to believe vaccines caused this child’s death. But there’s been no good basis give my to Ms. Clobes accusations. And her initial neuropathologist said he told Ms. Clobes it wasn’t the vaccines. I don’t know who she is talking to now, but so far, no evidence was provided that shows wrongdoing by the medical examiner or counters her conclusions.

I understand that quite a few of you want to use Ms. Clobes’ tragedy. It’s not a good case for you.

@ Narad

I used to spell “Propter” correctly. Don’t know when I started adding “m”, just a bad habit of old age. I’ll try to be more careful; but, on the other hand, I think a few misspellings is the least of problems in these exchanges. Feel free to remind me if I misspell again.

‘christine kincaid JANUARY 12, 2020 AT 3:20 PM
“And I noticed the ‘coschristi’ just a few days ago. It’s fixed now, thanks to Julian’s comment about WordPress.”

Um, not quite fixed yet.

coschristi JANUARY 12, 2020 AT 5:55 PM

Oops.

@ Christine

You write: “The medical examiner altered the report after the VAERS report was filed.”

What proof do you have that the report was altered?????

You don’t think it possible that a parent, allowing an infant to sleep in their bed, could accidentally suffocate the infant? Could you please tell me what planet you are from?

@ Joel,

You don’t think it possible that a parent, allowing an infant to sleep in their bed, could accidentally suffocate the infant?

A non-obese woman breastfeeding a six month old infant in bed? How many babies have you breastfed? It’s almost impossible. Breastfeed a few babies past 6 months old & we can discuss it.

Could you please tell me what planet you are from?

Obviously I landed on the wrong one

@ Dorit,

With all due respect, those are the pasteurized/homogonized press-release docs with a lot of blacked out areas. I hate speaking for other people but I would not put Catie in between myself & the posters here for any amount of money in the world.

In Catie’s words:

11/03/2019
I have had it. You think I’ve been loud but I’ve just called out rotten actions and not the rotten players. You think people would be extra careful, extra cautious, very precise when it comes to the death of an infant, and dealing with that infant’s furious, grieving mother.

NOT WITH ANOKA COUNTY, MN!

First they put a sociopath in the chief medical examiner position and that sociopath botches my daughter's autopsy. Ignores NUMEROUS indicators of the 6 injections given 36 hours prior to death being the culprit.

She tells MDH that a significant condition was the injections but doesn't put it in the autopsy.

She purposely doesn't send my hired neuropathologist the most important part of Evee's brain, and when a cellular infiltration is found in Evee's brain, she sends disturbing emails to my investigating county, and then FALSIFIES documents and changes the cause of death and admits it's because of my desire to petition the NVICP (even though I never told her that). Let's realize, a cellular infiltration was FOUND and she disregards that too!

Then she releases ALL of Evee's tissues EXCEPT the ones where hypoxic ischemic change and the cellular infiltration have been found, and has given absolutely no reason. She is holding 12 tissue blocks hostage for an obvious reason.

12/05/2019
Evee’s brain weighed the size of an 11 month old, her spleen was 4 times it’s size, she had numerous strands of abnormal bacteria found in her left lung, and Panic (potentially fatal in a living person) amounts of streptococcus salivarius in her heart blood. A cellular infiltration of histiocytes was found in the leptomeninges of her hippocampus in a secondary neuropathologist study

I have now found disturbing emails from the medical examiner's office to national news outlets, other counties, and interoffice in a data request, along with illegally redacted material.

Your documents do not mention the original findings that the anterior livor mortis was minimal compared to the posterior livor & located in an armpit; indicating a supine sleeping position.

Your documents do not mention the original findings of a dried, frothy, white film that extended from Evee’s mouth , across her cheek & down the back of her neck, also indicating a supine sleeping position.

They do not indicate that the ME told the Minnesota Department of Health that Evee’s vaccines were a ‘significant condition’.

Histiocytes are immune cells. Cellular infiltration indicates an immune response. An enlarged spleen indicates an immune-response. Let’s not play dumb here. Co-sleeping did not cause this baby’s death.

oh how i wish i could edit. Quotation marks belong at the beginning of this sentence: “I have had it.”

And end after this one: “I have now found disturbing emails from the medical examiner’s office to national news outlets, other counties, and interoffice in a data request, along with illegally redacted material.”

@ Christine

Put in a comment the complete reference to each of the documents/e-mails you claim, including URLs.

And, still, you fail to explain how you came up with 4,000 SIDS when there were only 1,400?

But Joel, that would allow us to gasp draw our own conclusions about what the documents say. Which Christine hates, because 99% of the time, she’s misrepresenting them. (I won’t say lying, because I’m not sure if she does it intentionally, or if she’s just so deep into her distorted thinking that she can only see them in terms of validating her preconceived notions).

blink, blink

I go away a few days, and then I come back to check the thread… Pterodactyls?
Among other things. Oh, well, carry on.

@ Athaic,

I saw a huge bird. One time. Here in Colorado. I startled it off my roof in the middle of the night during the same month that our southern Colorado Ranchers were experiencing cattle mutilations.

I only saw it in silhouette but it’s shape didn’t match any known avians. Closest was to a Vulture. But it was most definitely not a Vulture.

good grief.

“Histiocytes are immune cells. Cellular infiltration indicates an immune response.”

Histiocytes are commonly drawn to an area where cell breakdown has occurred for a variety of reasons, including ischemia (loss of oxygenation, i.e. following tissue death). Hippocampal neurons are among the first to show signs of ischemia, something that can occur as a result of stroke or brain death in general.

“A cellular infiltration of histiocytes…in the leptomeninges of her hippocampus” alone does not make sense in terms of an immune response to a vaccine.

That’s just my opinion as a pathologist. A yelping chorus of antivaxers no doubt has a more professional take on the subject.

@ Terrie

You write regarding my request that Christine supply the URLs to the documents: “But Joel, that would allow us to gasp draw our own conclusions about what the documents say. Which Christine hates, because 99% of the time, she’s misrepresenting them. (I won’t say lying, because I’m not sure if she does it intentionally, or if she’s just so deep into her distorted thinking that she can only see them in terms of validating her preconceived notions).

You may be absolutely right; but, still, I’m curious to see her alleged documents. And, despite everything, there is an old saying: “Even a broken clock gets the time right twice a day.” So, maybe she actually has some “valid” documents. Of course, even if this were the case, it would only prove one case, one anecdote, which for any logical reasonable person who believes in science, would NOT confirm any position.

As for me, if she comes up with “valid” documents, I have NO problem changing my mind on this one case. I’m NOT vested in anything; but the “truth” with a small “t” since I leave the big “T’s” to religious fanatics and antivaccinationists. Is there a difference?

In other anti-vax news…

( nj.com; Susan K Livio, Brent Johnson; @ DanielMuoz100)
Protests continue as the amended bill will be voted upon this afternoon or by noon tomorrow. The amendment ( allowing religious schools and daycare to be exempted) may have caused some of the earlier supporters to waffle. If it doesn’t pass, supporters may haveto start from scratch in the next session.

Does anyone else see a parallel to what is happening on a small scale at RI? An obsessed tiny minority misled by pseudoscience wastes the time and efforts of much more reality based supporters.

@ Denice

Yep; but, if nothing else, I usually download some documents and, for instance, learned today from Dangerous Bacon: “Histiocytes are commonly drawn to an area where cell breakdown has occurred for a variety of reasons, including ischemia (loss of oxygenation, i.e. following tissue death). Hippocampal neurons are among the first to show signs of ischemia, something that can occur as a result of stroke or brain death in general.

“A cellular infiltration of histiocytes…in the leptomeninges of her hippocampus” alone does not make sense in terms of an immune response to a vaccine.

That’s just my opinion as a pathologist.”

And from Dorit, downloaded the two autopsy documents. I’m approaching 15,000 documents in Vaccine Folder under various headings.

More on this @ high wire talk; AoA.

Anti-vax groups are arranging meet ups at the State House and especially courting Black people including the legislature’s Black Caucus claiming that amendments to the bill discriminate. Del will speak.

I see another set of parallels:

anti-vaxxers and pseudo-scientists claim secret information/ knowledge that undercuts what SBM/ the mainstream** holds
— RFK jr has secret papers where experts revealed The Truth behind closed doors, other instances
— Gary Null has cured aids/ cancer but no one will publish his work, threats from shadowy types etc.
— Anti-vaxxers claim research shows vaccines cause autism ( e.g. Hooker, Thompson) but it was “shredded”
— Anti-vax parents claim their child was fine until vaccines (Cedillo, Rossi. Wright etc) experts see otherwise
and here we have Christine having insider information ( about a child’s death, about vaccines from her mother, about giant flying animals/ birds etc etc) but can show no one else reports this and there is no convincing outside evidence.

ANYONE can claim special knowledge if they don’t have to prove it: I can claim that I have a foolproof investment plan*** that will secure your future without risk based on a great ( but secret) plan. I don’t put forth anything I can’t demonstrate. That’s what con artists do.

** similarly, Trump: “People tell me…”. ” Someone said…” ” Moslems were dancing in NJ as 9/11 happened”
*** actually, there is a plan, it’s not secret but it takes decades.

Hey! No updates on New Jersey? They are causing quite a raucous. Thousands of concerned citizens have shown up to protest S2173. Multi-state support. People from ALL OVER THE COUNTRY!

Translation: The local support for anti-vax propaganda is so weak that we have to get people from all over the country to show up to make ourselves look impressive.

@ Natalie

And half a century ago, many thousands of citizens in South protested against desegration, didn’t make the protestors right then or now. Something Christine doesn’t understand, that numbers don’t prove anything. In addition, in a nation of 320 million, the vast majority, according to numerous studies, vaccinate their children without protest, so a few thousand bused from all over nation means nothing. Plus, shouting loudest says nothing about validity, just one has strong lungs. Perhaps, genetically, if genes lead to strong lungs, perhaps, at same time, lead to weaker minds. Just a thought. LOL

AS I’ve stated many times, anti-vaxxers can’t read well or see the obvious.
see comments 10.53 and 12.24.

“Thousands of concerned citizens have shown up to protest S2173.”

I guess we would be able to figure who they by the blood on their hands: http://outbreaknewstoday.com/minnesota-reports-1st-pediatric-pertussis-death-since-2013/

Of course none you and your pro-disease care about that. Just like you do not care about the pain and cost of making sure a little boy in Oregon did not die of from tetanus. Just like you all do not care about all the brown children who died from measles in DR Congo and Samoa.

All because you all cannot pry open your minds to learn the actual science.

@ Chris:

What I worry about are the kids who go to private schools in towns like Lakewood ( which has a very large Yeshiva), Monsey, parts of Brooklyn and North Jersey ( cities with a significant Orthodox population) because they may not vaccinate.

What I worry about are the kids who go to private schools in towns like Lakewood ( which has a very large Yeshiva), Monsey, parts of Brooklyn and North Jersey ( cities with a significant Orthodox population) because they may not vaccinate.

When (not if) there are VPD outbreaks that happen in those schools, the religious exemption for private schools will be closed as well. Some of the NJ state senators need their hands held through this which is why the private school exemption was offered. It’s a shame science isn’t obvious to these people. Not a single one of those protesting have a bona fide religious objection either; that needs to be highlighted to hesitant senators what the real objection is.

Science Mom, I’m less sure that will get the loop hole closed on its own. I think it will take the outbreak jumping to the general population. After all, if you think individuals should be able to leave their children vulnerable, why can’t communities do the same? Obviously, it’s awful on any scale, but if your logic is the libertarian “As long as it’s not impacting anyone else….” they’re not going to care until it does impact other people.

Let’s deal with the loophole after something is passed. I suspect not all the members of the assembly that supported the bill are happy with watering it down, so let’s start by seeing if New Jersey can pass this this round, even with the loophole – it might not.

Of course, if not, everything is reopened as the new session pass and it may be a chance to pass the full original version.

I’m not actually sure what’s better. And note that neither event is dependent on the people shouting outside. It’s not them that would make this fail, if it fails, or pass if it passes (I’m not saying they had no effect. But they’re not where the real battles and issues are).

nj.com @ SusanKLivio,; @ johnsb01 ( Brent Johnson)

There’s a meeting with 3 doctors; the amendment may have got them a necessary vote but lost another so they’re one short again. May not vote today but a sponsor says they WILL vote. They’ll bring it back if need be.

(nj.com) They were again short a vote to pass: it seems that the amendments bothered some original supporters who felt it catered to the moneyed class who can afford private school; activists targetted Black people and used out of state resources. waged a phone in campaign . Still, Senate President Sweeney and Weinberg ( @ Senator Loretta W) vow that it will taken up again because it is a matter of public health.
( see also @ Susan K Livio, @ johnsb01, @ DanielMunoz100)

It would be interesting if Democratic leaders and news reporters had more insight into anti-vax mis-information, scaremongering, activism works. I know a few people who could enlighten them. Maybe they could tweet them.

From the NYT:

While most Orthodox Jews vaccinate their children, many rabbinical authorities “are very concerned about this bill” because it mandates vaccines even in those cases where a rabbi may decide they are unwarranted, said Avi Schnall, the New Jersey director of Agudath Israel of America.

Such a situation, he said, might arise in cases in which a family believes it has two children injured by vaccines, and is debating whether to vaccinate a third child. Most rabbis would rule that such a child should not be vaccinated, he said.

Nice and orderly. What seems to be lost in this casuistry is the presence of an actual halachic question.

@ Denise

Yep! ! ! ! ! Especially with vaccines, as I’ve written umpteen times, once people have heard some explanation, regardless of valid or NOT, then if something happens, their selective perception, time perspective, everything ignored except the one, that is, and I’ll spell it correctly, Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc.

And once people have made up their minds, whether by actually reading things or just picking up from surroundings, they most often refuse to consider being wrong, instead join echo chambers or cherry pick anything that remotely supports their position. I have suggested several times book by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson “Mistake were made (but NOT by me!) 2nd edition. As someone trained in psychology, I would love for you to read it and give your opinion. It gives numerous examples, based on Leon Festinger’s Theory of Cognitive Dissonance. Not only informative; but entertaining reading.

I’ll have to look into that. Believe it or not, through a complex series of events involving my advisor, I actually knew Dr Festinger personally: he was extremely sarcastic and naturally funny, like a stand up comic. He later studied visual perception and Anthropological concepts.

This advice seems like the production a toddler might put on to avoid brushing his teeth.

“I awweady bwushed my teef!”
“Your toothbrush isn’t wet.”
“I dwied it!”
“Your breath stinks.”
“Icky toofpaste.”
“I see a bit of food stuck in your mouth.”
“No! I bwushed it!”
“Not well enough. Here, let me….”
“NO NO NO NO I DON’T WANNA I DON’T WANNA WAAAAAH”

I mean, aren’t these adults who are responsible for the care and upbringing of a child? Why are they acting like lying children themselves? This is ludicrous.

“People from ALL OVER THE COUNTRY!”

Because there is not enough support in New Jersey, the same millionaires who are funding this whole anti-science movement is funding busing in and flying in people to Trenton. I’ve looked at the pictures. They’re not thousands, but, then again, this is the math of a person who thinks micrograms of something has the same effect as milligrams. So whatever…

It does make me wonder, as I’ve wondered before, what is the endgame of the antivax movement? More death and disease? Because Samoa and the DRC have shown us what happens. A kid just died from whooping cough in Minnesota. Kids are dying or being injured by influenza.

Profits from alternative treatments? Mercola sure sells a lot of stuff.

Profits from merchandise? From clicks on videos and blogs?

When White wakes up in the morning and logs on to try and push antivax ideas, what is her aim? What do these monsters want?

” They’re not thousands”

The reporters I follow have consistently said “hundreds”( with one possible exception) in the past week and in December.

I hate to say it but perhaps the only way laws will pass is when many kids have complications or die, parents lose money by staying home from work, cities have hire officers to enforce the unvaccinated staying home. THEN, the law may be approved quickly.

Maybe it would be easier if states let parents opt kids out of school entirely and make use of on-line grade and high school- wait, even university! Of course, the kids wouldn’t be with their friends daily, be on sports teams, take part in musical events, field trips, have teachers, coaches and mentors, high tech skills but that would be parental choice,

@ René F. Najera, DrPH

You write: “What do these monsters want?”

A job at Disneyland’s Fantasy Land????

@ Athaic,

I was wondering if Christine’s position stems in part by having to care for a disabled child

Yes & no but it has nothing to do with being controlling. I have neurotypical teens too. In fact; I have been the parent of eight neurotypical & one ‘aspie’ teen already. My disabled child is my youngest.

I already know I have the HLA-class II haplotypes & the Interleukin modulating genetic variants associated with a higher risk for adverse events from vaccines.

If you knew you had the familial hypercholesterolemia genotype; wouldn’t you want your child to avoid an unhealthy lifestyle & be compliant with a medical regimen?

If you knew you had the high-risk genotype for type 1 diabetes wouldn’t you again; want your child to avoid an unhealthy lifestyle & be compliant with a medical regimen?

Well in my case; I didn’t have the advantage of first knowing that I had the HLA-class II haplotypes & the Interleukin modulating genetic variants associated with a higher risk for adverse events from vaccines.

I vaccinated & one child died. I was told the vaccines were not responsible, the DTP was removed from the schedule, replaced with the D tap & I kept vaccinating.

I am now care giving for a disabled child, who WAS neurotypical until the regression that began after that round of ‘catch-ups’ (due to strep) meant that he received the D tap concurrently with the MMR.

I love my kids. I don’t want them to get hurt. If another one of my kids were to suffer yet another vaccine-injury, it wouldn’t matter how old they were; it would be me care giving for them as well. Yet my burden would pale in comparison to theirs; just as my burden as my son’s caregiver pales in comparison to what his is.

You can’t possibly expect a parent to be knowingly complicit in their child’s disability. So yes, my situation with my youngest is a factor but ‘controlling’ isn’t even on my radar. It is much more serious than that.

@ Christine

So, you avoid providing URLs to claims you made about altered autopsies. Not surprising. You really lack any and all credibility.

@ Christine

You write: “Well in my case; I didn’t have the advantage of first knowing that I had the HLA-class II haplotypes & the Interleukin modulating genetic variants associated with a higher risk for adverse events from vaccines.”

I’m not through looking; but so far I’ve found half dozen articles that found certain haplotypes don’t elicit as strong an antibody reaction to vaccines; but NOTHING about higher risk for adverse events from vaccines.

So, though you already lack credibility, try regaining some by giving a couple of valid references, that is, to peer-reviewed journal articles, not some opinion piece on an anti vaccine blog.

You write: “I vaccinated & one child died. I was told the vaccines were not responsible, the DTP was removed from the schedule, replaced with the D tap & I kept vaccinating.”

I found over a dozen articles on whole cell pertussis vaccine. They changed to DTap because it has fewer adverse reactions; but not one article found a death. They did find reports to VAERS of hypotonic-hyporespontsive episodes, which occur in approximately 1 in 1,408 doses of whole cell pertussis vaccine. “A hypotonic-hyporesponsive episode (HHE) is defined as sudden onset of poor muscle tone, reduced consciousness, and pale or bluish skin occurring within 48 hours after vaccination, most commonly pertussis vaccination.” NO REPORTED DEATHS; but I’ll do some more searching later.

So, while anything is possible, the fact that no other reports of deaths just imply your need to attribute it to vaccines. I am sorry about the loss of your or anyones child; but, again, give us some valid references to deaths following whole cell pertussis.

And you write: “I am now care giving for a disabled child, who WAS neurotypical until the regression that began after that round of ‘catch-ups’ (due to strep) meant that he received the D tap concurrently with the MMR.”

I’ve already explained that there are numerous reasons for “regression.” One that NOT regression, just heard infant parroting words; but at certain age when language actually begins, they don’t develop language. Two. multitude of rare genetic disorders. I could go on; but everything and anything adverse for you must be caused by vaccines.

While I empathize, not sympathize with any family with a developmentally challenged child (my younger brother was one, so I’ve direct experience), having several doesn’t mean vaccines. For instance, they say lighting doesn’t strike twice in the same place; but it does. There is an excellent book, fun reading, that explains how things that occur together, in your case, losing a child and a developmentally challenged child, for you must have a link, actually just random chance. Just as the chance of throwing a balanced coin 100 times seems impossible to get 100 heads in a row; but if thrown enough times, will happen. But, of course, you will reject this, as it must be the vaccines. Psychology of humans has found that people tend to attribute “cause” to random events because historically safer than ignoring; but, while sometimes valid, often not. Another excellent books is Ben Goldacre’s “Bad Science” where he goes through probably all your misunderstandings, of course, not yours alone. You are in good company or better “bad” company, that is illogical and rejecting science.

Inexpensive on Amazon.com David J. Hand (2014). The Improbability Principle: Why Coincidences, Miracles, and Rare Events Happen Every Day.

And for the third time, how about URLs to the coroners findings being changed! ! !

@ Joel,

You have not heard of Adversomics?

This study showed that fever following smallpox vaccination was associated with specific haplotypes on the IL1
gene complex, and in the IL18 and IL4 genes. Importantly, these findings raise the possibility that the same genetic
polymorphisms linked to fever after smallpox vaccine may also influence fever risk after other live virus vaccines,
including MMR.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2843136/?report=reader

So if the same susceptibility to adverse events to the Smallpox vaccine may indicate susceptibility to adverse events from he MMR? Anyone biologically related to me may face a huge problem. Additionally:

The investigators found specific SNPs/haplotypes in the MTHFR (enzyme 5,10-methylenetetrahydrofolate
reductase, non-synonymous rs1801133, p<0.01) and IRF1 (interferon regulatory factor-1, rs9282763 and
synonymous rs839, p=0.03) genes that were significantly associated with AEs in both studies. Genetic variants in
the MTHFR gene have been previously associated with adverse reactions to other pharmacologic biologics.

This study found that specific haplotypes in the IL1 and IL18 genes are associated with the development of fever
and differences in humoral immunity after smallpox vaccine.

For example, recombinant hepatitis B vaccine-associated major AEs have been hypothesized as being linked to
HLA class II DRB1 alleles/haplotypes (*01:01, *03:01, *04:01,*13:01, *15:01) and HLA class I A2 gene interaction

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4630804/

So add the HepB to the MMR.

As far as the ME’s games regarding Evee Clobes death? Moms fighting for justice against vaccines do not have mass media on their side. They do not have access to ‘documentcloud.org’ like the smear campaign does. There are no ‘URL’s’ & won’t be until the case has been resolved.

You can find the most incriminating document on Catie’s FB page. Under ‘Catie’s Photos’. Posted on November 10th.

"NO ... suggestion of Asphyxia noted".To include: "Overlying, wedging, choking, nose/mouth obstruction, re-
breathing neck compression, immersion in water. "

Then look at the documents provided by Dorit. ‘Positional Asphyxia’

christine kincaid wrote:

Anyone biologically related to me may face a huge problem.

Yes, while that may well be true, it’s also true both that fever is not generally considered a serious adverse event and that fever is associated with the viral and bacterial infections that are prevented by pediatric vaccines. You seem confused. Perhaps the percussive wingflap from that enormous pterodactyl-like creature did some damage.

I can add pediatrician cared me did not believe in fever medication. He just covered me with cold, wet blankets. No damage done.

Because you repeat endlessly, I do same thing: If vaccines caused autism, why its prevalence is so much higher amongst boys ? And what about twin studies ? Can you comment them ?

@ Aarno,

I have answered regarding sex-differential adverse effects from vaccines. Girls are at risk from higher mortality after vaccination during infancy. Boys are surviving infant vaccines but are at a higher risk for autism as a toddler.

Twin studies? Genes load the gun. Vaccines pull the trigger.

You may give us some statistics Three fouth of girls die, or something.
Identical twins have same genes, non identical do not. Both of them have approximately same environment. Compare autism rates.
Of course, one can do much better genetic analysis that that.

I was leafing through a volume at Half Price Books (an autobiography of a yacht captain, of all things) and came across this heading for Chapter 9:

https://books.google.com/books?id=ZcRWDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT159&lpg=PT159&dq=running+against+the+tide+dumbass+vaccine&source=bl&ots=-5Ry_1GNzs&sig=ACfU3U29Wsn8Iw0NkQTsv1D2QP8DNHWrVA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwivrfLt5YHnAhUTAZ0JHeF4DlwQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=running%20against%20the%20tide%20dumbass%20vaccine&f=false

Sadly true.

Too bad that Google doesn’t award PhDs for mangling science.

@ Christine

Yep, I’ve heard of Adversomics and have, not one; but many articles by Gregory Poland. First, smallpox vaccine is a very primitive vaccine (developed basically over 200 years ago; but saved literally 100s of millions of lives) and does have many adverse reactions; but, on the other hand, if smallpox was still raging, on average, it killed, that is, KILLED, at least 25 – 30% of the population, left many others blind, was a horrible experience that lasted more than a week, and left everyone with ugly pockmarks. Compare this with the adverse reactions, maybe 1/1,000, and deaths 1/1,000,000 and anyone but you would have opted for the vaccine.

And you quote from article: “This study showed that fever following smallpox vaccination was associated with specific haplotypes on the IL1gene complex, and in the IL18 and IL4 genes. Importantly, these findings raise the possibility that the same genetic polymorphisms linked to fever after smallpox vaccine may also influence fever risk after other live virus vaccines, including MMR” “Associated” doesn’t mean “causal” and they write: “may also influence”. Again, “may” is speculative.

The article also states: “It is important to perform a systematic evaluation of all possible causes of an AEFI that includes assessment of the temporal relationship, biological plausibility, consideration of alternative explanations (e.g., pre-existing illness, onset of new illness that is not related to immunization, spontaneous occurrence of an event without known risk factors, onset of a genetically programmed disease, recent exposure to another infectious agent or toxin prior to the event, occurrence of the event in the past independent of immunization, possible medication effects), and prior evidence that the vaccine has been shown to cause the particular event.”

As for flu: “Although the risk of Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) following influenza vaccination has been shown to be lower than after influenza illness, there is still significant public concern regarding vaccination leading to this neurologic condition.” Note that the risk of GB is about 1 per million vaccine given and most cases will eventually, at least, partially recuperate. And the risk from flu is much higher. As I’ve written umpteen times, we don’t live in a perfect world, one has to balance benefits and risks and the risk of getting flu, thus GB, is much higher than from the vaccine.

As for Hepatitis B: “recombinant hepatitis B vaccine-associated major AEs have been hypothesized . . .as being linked to HLA class II DRB1 alleles/haplotypes (01:01, *03:01, *04:01,13:01, *15:01) and HLA class I A2 gene interaction [79]. The authors speculate” DO YOU UNDERSTAND “HYPOTHESIZED”, “SPECULATE”??

As for Pandemrix: “as in the example of narcolepsy and Pandemrix, the frequency of the allele associated with the vaccine adverse event may be very common in the population, but only a small percentage of persons with this HLA-type may experience the vaccine adverse event. We are not advocating screening populations for particular HLA types and then withholding vaccination in these persons at this time. Vaccination is important for individuals, but it is also important for the “herd.”” So, only a small portion with particular HLA types were at risk; but compared to the risk from getting the flu, including death, the odds would still favor getting the vaccine.

“Initial observations from the adversomics studies that we have reviewed suggest that persons with particular HLA types may have increased rates of vaccine adverse events.”

Again, do you understand what “suggest” and “may have increased rates” mean.

Quite simply, you find an article that discusses vaccines and potential adverse events, in most cases, NOT CONFIRMED, and this is what you base your decision on. Again, with smallpox, even if you had an increased risk, not a certain risk, only an idiot like you would avoid the vaccine, ignoring just how contagious smallpox is and how lethal it is. By the way, smallpox history is one of my interests and I have 10 books and probably several hundred journal articles and even found online newspapers articles going back to 18th Century.

You write: “As far as the ME’s games regarding Evee Clobes death? Moms fighting for justice against vaccines do not have mass media on their side. They do not have access to ‘documentcloud.org’ like the smear campaign does. There are no ‘URL’s’ & won’t be until the case has been resolved.” Actually, as Ben Goldacre, among others, documents, mass media actually play up such.

I don’t have Facebook, avoid as much as possible joining such, which, given all the scandals, was a wise decision. I’ll ask a friend who is on Facebook if she can find it and download it; but, given your belief it wouldn’t be found in mass media and is posted by the person herself, not sure just how credible it would be. Also, you state “the most incriminating document”. So, only one document posted?

As I’ve stated, if, down the line, Clobes claims are proven, I would have NO problem accepting that; but it still doesn’t change the fact that you stated 4,000 cases of SIDS, when it was “In 2017, there were about 1,400 deaths due to SIDS.” Plus you can’t explain how incidence of SIDS has plummeted from 1990s while number of vaccines has increased.

Finally, as I’ve and others have written, with you it has to be vaccines. You ignore post hoc ergo propter hoc and just plain random chance, that is, the chance of two events, in this case, vaccine and some problem, occurring together. In a world giving literally billions of vaccines, the likelihood of numerous such events due to random chance is actually quite high.

By the way, if you can copy the entire document on Facebook and post it in a comment. Please do. How do you know it’s a valid document? It is NOT that difficult to create false documents.

Read Ben Goldacre’s book “Bad Science.” You might learn something; but I doubt it.

So, when you wrote: “Well in my case; I didn’t have the advantage of first knowing that I had the HLA-class II haplotypes & the Interleukin modulating genetic variants associated with a higher risk for adverse events from vaccines.”

You based the above on “may” “speculation” “association” which does NOT mean a causal connection and ignored that the risks with especially smallpox vaccine compared to actual smallpox makes the vaccine still a much better bet

Around 1980, The New England Journal of Medicine, perhaps the most prestigious medical journal on the planet, published an article associating coffee with pancreatic cancer. Made headline news. I read the article and laughed. I didn’t stop drinking coffee, didn’t even cut down. Well, even NEJM goofs and newspapers just follow motto: If it bleeds, it leads. I wonder how you would have reacted? Would you stop coffee? When it later was found to be methodologically deficient, would you refuse to change your mind? Once made up, fixed for life???

@ brian,

Sorry for the half name with no post. I was just going to type that the moving air from ‘percussive wingflaps’ didn’t hurt me (okay I sorta bonked my head when I ducked) when a video with a snake popped up on the PC screen. So my chair was overturned & my laptop flew & it posted. ha.

Maybe the Neurodiversity crowd should muster up shock & outrage about social media videos about Florida’s 2020 Python Hunt. Snakes are a threat stimuli & kids with severe autism have enhanced visual search. Snakes ARE a trigger for kids with Autism. I should demand my son be accommodated so I can avoid being dumped on my head. I’m being sarcastic of course.

Anyway; neither article specified the severity of AE’s associated with the HLA’s & Interleukin genes. I am aware of that. ‘a fever’ could me mild or ‘a fever’ could be serious & lead to seizures or neurological injury.

Since the articles did not expand on that I’m not going to argue about it. Joel said he ‘saw nothing’ about the impact of genes on adverse effects of vaccines & he asked me to provide “valid references, that is, to peer-reviewed journal articles”

And that’s what I did. First, I referenced an article that stated the same genetic variants involved with AE to Smallpox vaccine MAY be implicated in AE’s to the MMR.

And then I referenced an article that covered genetic variants & AE’s to smallpox, MMR, Influenza & HepB vaccines.

Too bad that bird has never been spotted in Florida. That would solve their python problem.

Additional Point

You apparently fail to understand the article on Adversomics. The point of the article is that vaccines are highly beneficial, though they do have some rare serious adverse events, that the risk from the adverse events is far lower than from the vaccine-preventable diseases. What the article wants is to continue vaccinations and reduce the risk of serious adverse events as much as possible by studying genetic predispositions and developing new vaccine that take such predisposition into accont. However, again, even with genetic predisposition the odds are great that the vaccine is still better than the disease as even with a genetic predisposition, in most cases, the majority won’t suffer from them; but would suffer from the disease.

As I wrote, even with smallpox, the risk from serious adverse events is far lower than from the disease. And it isn’t just Guillain-Barre risk being greater from the actual flu than the vaccine; but the actual flu can kill.

You, as usual, misinterpret the article, thus, believing best not to vaccinate. Foolish; but typical for you.

And, just to make quite clear, I support further research and vaccine development; but, besides your failure to understand post hoc ergo propter hoc and random chance of two unrelated events occurring together, I do accept that some serious adverse events are caused by vaccines and there does exist categories for either not vaccinating or delaying vaccines, etc.; but, besides these categories, the risks from the actual diseases far outweigh the risks of serious adverse events. You just refuse to understand this, which is why I consider you STUPID, not stupid because of a defective brain; but stupid because you refuse to use it, to be open-minded, to not assume that vaccines are the cause of events you have experienced. So, I support vaccines because I do care about people and because I have spent a life-time learning about them, about infectious diseases, about research methods, about immunology, etc. I have NO vested interest, that is, financial and NEVER have had. But I understand the difference between scientific methodology and how people think, false logic, selective perception, selective time remembrance, etc. Do read Ben Goldacre’s book “Bad Science.”

@ Joel,

OMG Joel. Of COURSE the articles I referenced proclaimed vaccines as ‘highly beneficial’. Gregory Poland wrote them. He was (or still is?) a member of the ACIP.

You didn’t ask me to reference articles that said ‘Vaccines Suck’. You said:

so far I’ve found half dozen articles that found certain haplotypes don’t elicit as strong an antibody reaction to vaccines;
but NOTHING about higher risk for adverse events from vaccines.

So, though you already lack credibility, try regaining some by giving a couple of valid references, that is, to peer-reviewed
journal articles, not some opinion piece on an anti vaccine blog

So that’s what I gave you. AFAIC; Poland is unparalleled as an author of studies regarding Immunogenomics.

The core of your issue with me is that you think I ‘refuse to understand that the risks from the actual diseases far outweigh the risks of serious adverse events’.

I understand what you are saying but I disagree & I do acknowledge that I have NOTHING I can reference to back me up. Do you know why I do not agree?

Because past the point of the studies that identify the haplotypes; no vaccine safety study has been done using a control group with ONLY those with those certain haplotypes, have they? One of those articles may have mentioned prevalence of the haplotypes in the general population. Some mentions were for specific ethnic groups. But if we know the potential exists for increased adverse events in people with those haplotypes but they are not determined before a safety study; the risk is being massively diluted. It’s not GOING to signal.

For some of us; the risk of the actual disease MAY be less than the risk of adverse events from the vaccine. Vaccines provoke the immune system in a different way than the pathogen does.

@Christine Kincaid Google Scholar search “haplotype vaccine” trial returns 28600 items, So this is an important field of study.

In addtion, this one:
T J Blanchard, A Alcami, P Andrea and G L Smith
Modified vaccinia virus Ankara undergoes limited replication in human cells and lacks several immunomodulatory proteins: implications for use as a human vaccine.
JOURNAL OF GENERAL VIROLOGY Volume 79, Issue 5
First Published: 01 May 1998 https://doi.org/10.1099/0022-1317-79-5-1159
Vaccinia virus actually does have immunomodulatory proteins, and it is reasonable that modulation depends on haplotype

Bit awkward there CK. If someone believes vaccines are effective and as safe as possible with current knowledge, you won’t believe their research as it will be ‘biased’. If someone studies vaccines and the results convince them that vaccination is of massive benefit then they, presumably, move automatically into the untrustworthy category. Can you not see that YOUR attitude is the problem there? Ultimately YOU are unscientific as you’ve proved that you are incapable of accepting data that counters your opinions.

Ironically, in cattle predation, aliens are more believable than giant birds, since they would not leave evidence in the local ecology, not being “local” as it were.

@Joel, found the link for the report. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157384947192420&set=pb.510082419.-2207520000..&type=3&theater. For someone who’s bragged about being hyperlexic and reading at a speed and level that supposedly amazed experts, you’d thing Christine would know what the words “preliminary” and “suggests” mean. Once again, she distorts and misrepresents.

It’s more “group therapy” for her…rather than deal with the shambles of her life – mostly by her own design, she comes here & vomits her ravings so she can feel better (and superior) about herself.

Of course, she’s solved all the world’s problems – “if we’d only listen to her.”

The Great Derangement, by Matt Tabibi is a great read as to why people gravitate to fringe movements and beliefs – when they feel like they have little to no control over their lives. They find “THE TRUTH” which gives their life meaning and purpose…and because it becomes a part of who they are, if you try to reason with them, they view it as an attack on themselves.

Christine exhibits all the signs of one of these “True Believers,” and she’ll never, ever change her mind, because she can’t. Because if she does, her life will cease to have meaning.

A therapist friend of mine considers it a form of self-harm. Sure, in the short term, you get to be righteously angry and contemptuous of those who aren’t as “enlightened” as you, which is a great distraction from things and provides a temporary high. But it never lasts, and in the end, you’ve still got all the same issues, plus on top of that, a bunch of wasted time and the bitterness of people not recognizing your greatness. So you go back and do it again, repeating the cycle.

Unfortunately, any sympathy and pity I might have had for her has been buried under the fact that she’s a selfish, nasty person who wants other people to suffer. And while the events of her life have probably enhanced those tendencies, I doubt the created them.

@ Lawrence,

Nice keyboard psychotherapy. Nothing about posting on RI is remotely therapeutic. Sometimes I literally close my eyes as the page loads & take a few deep breaths before I dare look.. I don’t want therapy, don’t need therapy & if I did; I wouldn’t come here.

I come here to avoid the echo chamber syndrome. Pro-vax social media pages are not helpful. They say the same things over & over & never give feedback when I cite articles. Pro-vax lay people are fools & they are not helping your position.

I come here because you guys here are capable of deconstructing my arguments. You are the best at pointing out flaws in my thinking. I win the debates on the lay-persons pro-vax sites, thanks to posting on RI.

As you have just witnessed in NJ; it doesn’t matter how many high-profile people on in your corner. All of them; from the politicians to the public health authorities work for & are funded by the people. Your weak spot, not you personally but as a group; is that you sit up on high & don’t interact with the lay people who are in your corner. You should really check them out & see how they are undermining your efforts. They have no mentors.

You have a flawed strategy because you don’t support your troops. You think ‘the science’ gives you the luxury of a lazy offense. The only regular poster here who I regularly see infiltrate ‘enemy lines’ is Dorit & she is a lawyer! That’s why I like her but you bastions of science are absent.

Orac has in the past said that antivaxxers who post here (such as I) are helpful to give his followers ‘chew toys’ yet I notice people here question why he ‘tolerates’ me. At some level; I think he gets it. He’s been taken off guard by being confronted under a spot light. Offit has said the same. Practice makes perfect & as far as I can tell; I’m ‘tolerated’ to serve a purpose. Your psychobabble brush-off of me might help you rationalize what I say as just some angry-mommy rant but every time that works for you; you get a little bit softer & there are hundreds of thousands of angry-mommies right behind me.

@ Terrie,

Ironically, in cattle predation, aliens are more believable than giant birds, since they would not leave evidence in the local ecology, not being “local” as it were

You would be wrong (why am I arguing this?). There is plenty of evidence left. No scavenging of the carcass except for other birds. Mountain lions & coyotes won’t touch it. Puddles of caustic fluid & scorched grass (vultures leave the same on a much smaller scale) & tripod punctures on the hides & tripod tracks (measuring 18″ to up to 3 ft across) on the ground. A complete lack of other species tracks; both animal & human. Broken branches of brush & trees in the immediate area & flattened grass. Trace amounts of an anesthetic-like & anticoagulant chemicals in the body (all hematophagous animals have these substances in their saliva), etc.

Unlike Bigfoot or ET; there is quite a bit of physical evidence left at the scene. Over 20 peculiarities that distinguish an actual ‘mutilation’ from natural ground predators or illegal rustling/butchering. Anyway.

There are at least 15 screen shots of the documents involved in Ms Clobes case, including emails between the ME & the media on how to ‘edit’ the documents to appear more supportive in discrediting the mother, for the purpose of the public opinion.

Actually, I wouldn’t be wrong, because hat you just presented has nothing to do with ecology. Ecology:

And why should we believe your claims about what the emails show, when you’ve been shown over and over to distort information?

@ Christine

As usual, you miss the entire point. You referred to the Poland article as reference for why you knew your HLA type risked adverse outcomes from vaccines; but Poland’s article made it clear that the risk was still less than the benefit. For Poland and reasonable people, vaccines should be ones choice; but, as with all medical interventions, we should work to improve them, in this case, to reduce as much as possible the rare, I repeat “rare”, serious adverse outcomes. And you refuse to even address what I wrote about two random events occurring together more often than people realize; but, it is a human tendency to attribute a pattern to even random events.

You write: “The core of your issue with me is that you think I ‘refuse to understand that the risks from the actual diseases far outweigh the risks of serious adverse events’. I understand what you are saying but I disagree & I do acknowledge that I have NOTHING I can reference to back me up. Do you know why I do not agree? Because past the point of the studies that identify the haplotypes; no vaccine safety study has been done using a control group with ONLY those with those certain haplotypes, have they?”

And you missed the part where Poland explained that even with the haplotype, that most didn’t develop the adverse reaction, so, for most, the disease a greater risk and since one can’t know in advance, vaccination is the wise choice.

I mentioned studies I found; but Aarno found 28600. Thanks to him, I used Google scholar with search terms: haplotype AND vaccine AND placebo AND “safety studies” And found 197 studies.

And you write: “Vaccines provoke the immune system in a different way than the pathogen does.” No, they DON’T. Well, in one way, they do. They allow our immune systems to create memory B-cells by introducing into our bodies killed or weakened microbes. B-cells and T-cells don’t recognized complete microbes; but small bits/patterns called antigenic determinants, which usually are composed of a dozen or more amino acids. The antigenic determinants are the same whether the microbe is alive or not. Sometimes, to get the immune system to realize an “attack” has occurred, since the killed microbe doesn’t always elicit a major battle in the periphery, minute amounts of aluminum are added, called adjuncts. Since aluminum is the 3rd most ubiquitous substance on the planet and we get it in the air we breath, food we eat, water we drink, and scratches in our skin, the amount in vaccines is nothing. All it does is cause a localized minor irritation which, together with the antigenic determinant, creates memory B-cells. Attenuated vaccines also create memory T-cells. You really DON’T UNDERSTAND the basics of immunology. Vaccines are composed of the pathogen, just killed or weakened. STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

And thanks to Terrie, I found the facebook report you referred to and, to quote Terrie: “For someone who’s bragged about being hyperlexic and reading at a speed and level that supposedly amazed experts, you’d thing Christine would know what the words “preliminary” and “suggests” mean. Once again, she distorts and misrepresents.”

Why don’t you stop making a fool of yourself and, instead of posting stupidity after stupidity, read Ben Goldacre’s book “Bad Science” and Lauren Sompayrac’s “How the Immune System Works” (6th Edition). I could recommended a couple of undergraduate textbooks of 800 pages; but Sompayrac’s book is excellent and only 150 pages.

However, at this point, if you don’t ever, for instance, get the flu shot, as long as you don’t endanger someone else, what happens to you is NOT my concern. Unfortunately, by not getting the flu shot, if you are exposed and then expose someone who either can’t get the shot, actual autoimmune disorder or chemotherapy, or got it but their immune system responded poorly, and they are harmed, then you would be to blame. But, of course, as with many other antivaccinationists and, unfortunately, Americans, hopefully not a majority, community doesn’t count, only the individual.

I wonder how you would respond if someone you loved died from flu after being exposed from someone who didn’t get vaccinated???

@ Christine

Besides the facebook post stating “Preliminary” why didn’t she post the entire sheet? What did she leave out??? Notice it doesn’t include under Asphyxia pooled blood, etc, just outward signs, etc. So, NOT even close to proof that when complete autopsy was performed, they changed anything. One more example that you are just completely STUPID and DISHONEST.

@ Joel,

I wanted to see the whole page too. I can’t speak as to why not but there are multiple blacked out areas on the papers Dorit submitted as well.

@ Terrie:

Agreed.
What RI readers are witnessing here by a few adamantly entrenched, misguided and disturbed commenters just took place on a large scale in NJ. Anti-vax protestors were able to intimidate enough legislators so that a bill eliminating religious exemptions didn’t have enough votes to pass. They congratulate themselves ( @ ChildrensHD, AoA @ KimRossi1111 etc) while sane experts( @ Peter Hotez) bemoan the results. Whilst the anti-vaxxers say they are protecting parents’ rights : are they? Most parents in NJ ( 94-5%) vaccinate their children without a fuss. Yet a campaign by a vocal group sponsored/ funded by often out-of-state advocates managed to affect the outcome.

So imagine a crowd of Christines and her commadres shrieking and wailing with loudspeakers for days.. no wonder those legislators caved against their own better judgment.
Supporters won’t give up though.

@ Christine

You write: “I come here because you guys here are capable of deconstructing my arguments. You are the best at pointing out flaws in my thinking. I win the debates on the lay-persons pro-vax sites, thanks to posting on RI. . . .As you have just witnessed in NJ; it doesn’t matter how many high-profile people on in your corner. . . .Your psychobabble brush-off of me might help you rationalize what I say as just some angry-mommy rant but every time that works for you; you get a little bit softer & there are hundreds of thousands of angry-mommies right behind me.”

The fact that New Jersey happened is only proof that stupid people can win. As I wrote in a previous comment, mass demonstrations against desecration in the South didn’t mean that they were right. And continued racism among groups doesn’t make it right today. So, if an outbreak of a vaccine-preventable disease occurs in New Jersey and, not only kids suffer; but some either die or develop disabilities, yep, stupidity will have won out. If you use this site to improve your idiotic beliefs, just shows how stupid you are, ignoring that we refute you, point out how you misread, misuse papers. And I would be willing to bet each and every one of us could do the same on the other websites you post on.

By the way, when I have submitted comments to either Age of Autism or Autism Investigated, most of the time they do NOT post them. On a few occasions, they actually posted several of my comments; but then allowed their minions to attack, while my responses to them weren’t posted. Talk about echo chambers. Vaccinate Your Family, formerly Every Child By Two, a provaccine website’s blog “Shot of Prevention” allowed long running dialogues between pro and anti vaccinationists.

As for us getting “softer”, are you completely DAFT. If anything, given the fact that NOTHING sways you, that you often ignore what we write, twist it, etc. my impression that we have given up on you, that we find you not only stupid; but worthless.

@ Christine

I just want to get this straight. You basically are saying that science, critical thinking, and common sense can lose to emotionally charged, subjective, illogical, hysterical mobs who shout quite loud. Yep, I don’t disagree this happened in New Jersey and has happened before and will happen again. As Ben Goldacre points out in his book, when a passionate mother is interviewed and a scientist who is not trained for public appearances, the passion wins. And you think this is OK. I can just picture you at the Edmund Pettus Bridge screaming and throwing rocks at Martin Luther King and others. Or how about throwing rocks through windows of Jewish stores on Crystal Night, 1938 in Nazi Germany. Yep, mob demonstrations are what you should be proud of.

@ Joel,

The reason they are passionate is because most of them have experienced a child’s death or disability following vaccination. They are fighting for their life.

Many of them were on your side, not mine; less than 5 years ago. As the amount of vaccines increase, so do the amount of adverse events & finally; the numbers of antivaxxers.

You can’t stop this with that tired epidemiology as your ‘scientific basis’ while the recent research is moving towards immune-mediation as at least correlated with the majority of alleged vaccine injuries. You are reaching a tipping point.

Continued, increasing rates of alleged vaccine injury & the research swings towards immune-mediation yet nobody questions the epidemiology?

Just like the numbers of pro-vax parents were higher yesterday than today, if nothing changes & kids keep dying or become disabled; there will be even less provaxxers tomorrow.

And when these diseases start roaring back & kids start dying, your kind will be held responsible and vaccination rates will go up…..just like when all of those “anti-vax” parents in Washington State went running to the Peds offices to get their kids the MMR when they were confronted with a Measles outbreak in their community.

It’s wonderful that you can rant and rave from your ivory tower….but the moment your group has to live in the real world where these diseases kill, you’ll see how “fair weather” they actually are.

From the Philadelphia Inquirer ( Jan 7)

Pew Research on vaccine support and parent rights:
20% of Evangelical Christians support parental choice about vaccines vs 11% for Mainstream Protestants
93% of Post grad degree holders support MMR vs 68% of high school grads or less
95% of upper income earners vs 81% lower income people
Parents of kids under 18 benefits outweigh risks 70% vs 81% non-parents
Black people support parental choice 26% vs Hispanic people 19% ; white 13%.

Thus, anti-vax groups target those more likely to support them: religious, POC, less educated, kids at home etc,

-btw- the newspaper supports elimination of the religious exemption in NJ..

@ Denice Walter

Years ago some of the highest vaccination rates were the border areas in Texas. Quite simply, vaccine-preventable diseases were not out of sight out of mind.

As for Evangelical Christians, their inconsistencies are appalling. They are against abortion because it is taking of human life; but for the death penalty, despite Jesus in Matthew rejecting an eye for an eye. And they usually are against welfare programs helping poor people, again ignoring Jesus in Matthew saying “when you gave drink to the thirsty, food to the hungry, cared for the sick, when you did this to the least of your brothers, you did unto me.” “Least of your brothers.” Not unusual for people claiming to believe in something to pick and choose what fits their personal prejudices. ISIS, Al Qaeda, the Taliban, all ignore Mohammed’s teachings. Despite many Americans antipathy to Islam, they no more represent Islam than Aryan Nations represents Christianity.

Just an aside. I am Jewish; but, besides having had Arab and/or Muslim friends most of my life, besides reading on infectious diseases I’ve read half dozen books on Islam and sections of Koran.

I would be willing to bet that if there were a terrorist attack of smallpox, highly unlikely but not impossible, many antivaccinationists would literally use violence to get in front of line for vaccination.

@ Deice,

So in a nutshell:

Entitled, white, child-free'rs haven't a clue.

Tell me something I don’t know.

Hilariously ( @ DelBigtree; @ HighWireTalk) compares anti-vaxxers in NJ to George Washington and his troops!
“The Battle of Trenton II”

Because a hoard of shrieking, affluent white mommies are exactly the same as a retreating general and desperate rebels surprising well armed professional soldiers representing an empire in small wooden boats across a partially frozen river at night before Christmas.
Right, sure. In their minds only.
Prepare the medal ceremonies, Mr Kennedy.

@ Denice

Yep, victory by surprising a sleeping, inebriated army on Christmas Eve. So, I guess another example of American Christians ignoring a religious holiday, and, to some extent, similar to Pearl Harbor. Yes, war was raging; but still a sneak attack.

So, they won; but is it really something to be proud about???

I actually have a great book about it: David Hackett Fischer’s “Washington’s Crossing.” Told you I’m interested in a wide range of subjects. I go to library book sales and purchase bookstore one or two dollars on a variety of subjects, then, as time permits, read them. Lately, behind in my reading as wasting too much time commenting on blogs.

Absolutely true! But hey, it’s OUR side, so let’s applaud it.
At any rate, NJ is trying to create a Revolution Trail for tourists featuring the famous Retreat Route where George & Co fled NYC across NJ to PA. Interestingly, the endpoints are in quite scenic areas: across from New Hope and NYC ( which you can see by googling Washington’s Crossing State Parks- NJ/ PA and Fort Lee Historic Park IMAGES).

AND you aren’t wasting time on blogs. You’re educating people despite lack of results with diehard anti-vax entrenched partisans.
Supporters of the new vaccine bill will rely upon medical experts ( which they already have) in hearings. What I think they REALLY need are sceptics to explain how anti-vax works: spreading its web of deceit using social media and manipulated parents to affect legislators’ decisions. They need people like Orac and YOU. And Dorit and us.

Would you like me to connect you with some of the people on the ground in NJ? My email is very easy to find.

Thanks but I’ve been doing it a little on my own secretly. But I do have connections to some political people on the right side.

I should explain:
people who are sceptics should be very careful about including full names and home /work locations because anti-vaxxers and woo merchants are quick to harass their critics- sometimes even suing them. A few people @ RI have had unfortunate encounters with these malcontents. I am proud to say that although I tangoed/ insulted a well heeled, obnoxious young anti-vaxxer and wrote volumes about a famously litigious woo-meister, I have had NO ONE knocking at my door, tailing me or suing. YET.

And I intend to keep it that way. -btw- my nym isn’t my full name (it’s half) : I later learned that a woman in Hobart uses the same so I hope that Jake or other loonies haven’t harassed her thinking that we are one and the same.

( Women on the net are sometimes treated much worse than men are: a recent twitter experiment asked men to use another feminine nym/ ID to learn how vicious readers can be. I see that here all the time)

A. You don’t need to explain. (In the sense that you don’t owe an explanation. :))
B. I understand.
C. Thanks for doing what you’re doing.

Honestly, anyone, skeptic or not, should be extremely careful about what kind of information they provide about themselves online. Once it’s out, you can’t take it back. And the US has very crappy data privacy laws.

@ Terrie:

Heh.
Some of our critics/ scoffers might be surprised to know how much we know about them.
People who are able to do research – internet, scientific, legal and otherwise- can find astonishing things easily.
–non-sceptical examples: people who brag about their affluence have financial problems or bought a cheap house in a low cost area. Their jobs or education aren’t what they claim, in trouble with law etc.
–sceptical examples: they have low quality education, were in trouble with the law/ government, they or family members have legal issues, lost medical licences , banned from Australia for promoting BS, tossed from doctoral programmes, problems with child custody. Driving under the influence etc.

@ Terrie,

Actually, I wouldn’t be wrong, because hat you just presented has nothing to do with ecology

Ecological evidence for it’s existence is well established. Maybe you meant ‘extinct’.

1) What you presented was not ecological evidence, you potato. But feel free to explain it’s influence on species in the local ecosystem. 2) You have a very well established history of bullshit and misrepresentation, so if you told me the sky was blue, I’d double check.

@ Terrie

Don’t confuse Christine with the sky is blue. On her home planet of Mars its RED. LOL

@ Terrie,

Notice how no matter how many times you call me names I never respond with the same? Makes me wonder about your upbringing.

it’s influence on species in the local ecosystem

If you can’t understand we regularly find cattle in tree branches & over fences; I’m not sure what I could find that would be more influential.

Christine, no, you just want to put the lives of people in danger, and don’t give a damn how much other people suffer. I’d happily put up with some name calling if you’d stop with your agenda of death.

I tell you what. I’ll promise to cease any name calling, if you explain why you misrepresented the autopsy related entry on asphyxia, and Mr. Ne’eman’s comments on Kevin and Avonte’s Law. Or, heck, I’m feeling generous. You only have to explain one, not both.

@ Aarno,

Vaccinia virus actually does have immunomodulatory proteins, and it is reasonable that modulation depends on haplotype

Yes, a lot of research going on. I hope they apply some of the knowledge soon to vaccines.

@ Christine

You write: “Vaccinia virus actually does have immunomodulatory proteins, and it is reasonable that modulation depends on haplotype.” Do you even understand the difference between a wild-type virus and a vaccine?

As usual you ignore, don’t understand, or don’t want to understand what I wrote. Vaccinia virus is one of the deadliest viruses on the planet. The vaccine is basically over 200 years old and does have some serious adverse outcomes, 1 – 2 deaths per million vaccinated and several hundred sickened by progressive or generalized vaccinia. However, without the vaccine, out of one million, between 250,000 and 300,000 minimum would die. So 250 – 300,000 deaths compared with 1 – 2 and a few hundred very sick for a period of time. So any normal sane reasonable person would opt for the vaccine, you not included.

In addition, though haplotype would associate with the few deaths and serious illness, most people with the haplotype wouldn’t. So, again STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

And you haven’t answered why you claimed the coroners report was falsified, only referring to a partial page that send “preliminary” and only looked at outward signs, so didn’t include pooling of blood. You are really disgusting.

@Christine Kincaid What I meant is that we know genes of vaccinia virus (it produces soluble cytokine receptors). We know genes of measles virus, too. It does not code immunomodulatory genes similar to vaccinia virus. So cytokine data of vaccinia virus cannot be applied to measles.

@ Joel,

“You write: “Vaccinia virus actually does have immunomodulatory proteins, and it is reasonable that modulation depends on haplotype.” Do you even understand the difference between a wild-type virus and a vaccine?

In addition, though haplotype would associate with the few deaths and serious illness, most people with the haplotype wouldn’t. So, again STUPID, STUPID, STUPID.

I didn’t write that. Aarno did. I was replying to him.

These were my words: .”Yes, a lot of research going on. I hope they apply some of the knowledge soon to vaccines.”

I can understand having an aversion of FB but you really should look at ALL the photos of the documents there. Not sure what you mean by ‘pooling of blood’. The livor mortis report or the scene recreation showing that tiny drip pf blood on the sheet?

@ Christine

I’ve asked and other have asked for you to give a URL or someway to view the entire document or documents that you refer to; but you haven’t. While I’m NOT on Facebook and probably never will be, I have friends who are and can copy the documents.

The only report I was able to see was a partial preliminary report that Terrie referred to. The Catie Clobes, November 10, 2019 has “Indicate whether preliminary investigation suggests any of the following:
Asphyxia (ex. overlying, wedging, choking, nose/mouth obstruction, re-breathing, neck compression, immersion in water)

So, once again it was a “preliminary report” not the autopsy and no where does it mention, for instance, pooling of blood.

Now I’ve spelled it out for you what I was able so far to obtain. If you can direct me to how to obtain the liver mortis report and the scene recreation, find, if not, I am sick and tired of you.

But as I explained several times, even if this one case wasn’t the mother’s fault, not proof that the vaccination played a role, except in your sick mind that it is almost always the vaccine. So, give me directions how I can find ALL the photos of the documents.

You refuse to even consider the logical fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc and that two totally unrelated events, in this case vaccination and SIDS, could by random chance occur numerous times, despite my having referred you to a book that literally documents such things.

In 1976 a man in Pittsburg got a flu shot at his doctor’s office and died of a heart attack. Made headlines. Later discovered he had cardiovascular disease, etc. Years before the first Mayor Richard Daley went in for his annual physical, as he was buttoning his shirt his doctor pronounced him in fit condition to which he had a massive heart attack and died. No flu shot. Perhaps being told he was fit was just too much a shock. Moral of story, best not to get an annual physical. So, one man has heart attack after flu shot, another doesn’t. So many people go into doctors’ offices every day that chance events will happen. And, as I’ve explained numerous times, psychology tells us that people are programmed to see causal relationships in random events; but you refuse to even consider this. But, despite what you chose to believe, newspapers go by “if it bleeds it leads,” so they do play up stories of heart attacks after flu shot, of parents who believed their kid died from vaccine, etc. As Ben Goldacre explains in his book, mass media played up pilot studies with negatives; but didn’t even mention several well-done studies later on that clearly refuted the first one.

And the fact that you applaud bussing in a bunch of people to shout and demonstrate is proof of you being right is disgusting. Like I wrote, you would have fit in with those protesting Martin Luther King’s march at Edmond Pettus Bridge or the Germans who threw rocks into Jewish stores on Crystal Nacht. Mobs are right in your book.

As for a lot of research going on, it’s always been going on; but as I’ve explained, even if one has a specific haplotype, most with it will not experience a serious adverse event; but by not getting vaccinated they risk both themselves, their other family members, and innocent bystanders. I’m sure you could care less if you passed on some vaccine-preventable disease to someone with an autoimmune disease or undergoing chemotherapy, even if it killed them. Your world revolves around you. You are truly despicable.

@ Joel,

Remember the ‘preliminary’ states nothing was found to suggest nose/mouth obstruction.

MEDICAL EXAMINERS FINAL SUMMARY: Date of exam: 03/01/2019 Manner of Death: Undetermined Cause of Death: Undetermined. “The child was placed face up with no pillows or blankets and was reportedly found in the same position”
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157252460877420&set=pb.510082419.-2207520000..&type=3&theater

Date: June 26, 2019 “I am amending the Death Certificate to state Positional Asphyxia”
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10157424185122420&set=pb.510082419.-2207520000..&type=3&theater

Suddenly, pillows & blankets appeared & the detectives report states ‘markings consistent’ with being face down.

I’m only giving two or I will be stuck in mod but the more I think about this the more I am sure that you are the rock thrower. You have called me names countless times. You ranted for a paragraph about how what I said was ‘STUPID STUPID STUPID’ when I had quoted Aarno. You are acting like a bully.

But I have to stop for a bit. I am sad, my cat is missing & I have been searching night & day down alleys & in fields, even at night with my son & flashlights even carrying his treats in my pockets when I go jogging & I just don’r care right now for being verbally abused like this.

@Christine Kincaid As always actually reading posts is useful
First one: everybody plots against me
Second one: I will help your Vaccine Court case
The mother is just very angry, obviously

Yet, you’re posting here.

When I lost my dog, I spent zero time on the PC and all of my time trying to find him.

Get out of here.

@ Lawrence:

Agreed.
I don’t know but maybe I don’t live in the past when people just let cats roam around where they can get hit by cars, get any type of parasite ( and because of where she lives) get shot or attacked by predators like coyotes ( which live all over even places like NY)
I’ll never forget a young man from Santa Rosa crying on television because his cat escaped and he saw it being eaten by a coyote.
I guess her knowledge and abilities extend beyond medicine into animal care. Poor cat.

Denice, as much as I dislike Christine, there’s nothing in her comment to suggest the cat is routinely let out. I’m willing to give her the benefit of the doubt and that it escaped. It’s awful, but it happens even to good pet owners. I hope she finds her cat, and I hope she’s smart enough to at least vaccinate it, because outdoor cats are much more prone to picking up some truly awful diseases, and an escaped kitty can easily pick them up. Neither the cat nor the rest of Christine’s family have done anything to deserve our ire, so I will keep them in my thoughts and hope for a happy outcome.

@ Terrie:

I’m sure you’re right BUT she is not the most reliable narrator around and I suspect that if the cat escaped she would have noted it dramatically and elaborately but WHO KNOWS? I remember a panicked call from my elderly aunt whose first words were, ” Lucky got out! Please help me” and I had to search around her house for an extended period.at 6 am.

Oh, you couldn’t pay me to let her near on of my animals. But if one of her kids was part of the chain that involved the cat going missing, I would hate to pile on to their guilt. They never asked to have her as a mom.

@ Terrie,

I didn’t misrepresent jack shit. Ne’emen is for Ne’eman. He is incapable of advocating for anybody other than Ne’eman.

He argued AGAINST the ONLY tool that could help find a autistic child after they had managed to escape the home or classroom & before they wandered to water. Literally THE leading cause of death for autistic children. Against funding that would not only have provided the devices but was proposed to be used to train law enforcement & Swim Lessons for the disabled. Against a measure.supported by Autism Speaks, the Autism Society, the National Autism Association, the National Down Syndrome Society, and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, among many other organizations.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inspectrum/201612/117-autistic-children-and-adults-who-died-deserve-better

1) The article you posted was written by a nonautistic.
2) You list one of the supporters of these laws as Autism Speaks. Automatically I’m chary.
3) Never presume to say what others are thinking.

Only you didn’t say he didn’t support it, did you? You stated Ari Ne’eman of ASAN opposed a version of Kevin and Avonte’s Law, which would have provided money for tracking devices for wandering behavior in autistic children, over preference for ‘privacy’ & said that autistic elopers were likely victims of abuse.

I linked to his statement at https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/17/13993398/safety-autonomy-avonte-tracking-autism-wandering-schumer previosuly. He specifically notes that they opposed it only when the law expanded beyond wandering. And he stated The challenge is that autistic people and others with disabilities “wander” for all sorts of reasons. Some of this wandering can be dangerous, especially for children.

Again, why did you lie about what he said?

@ Christine

So, you base your claims against Ne’emen on what someone else wrote on a blog; but didn’t bother to go to what he actually stated. Yep, you find what confirms your rigid ideology and then defend yourself for the indefensible. What was written on psychology today is second hand information. I don’t know whether you really are stupid or intentionally dishonest

Now I’m interested in reading “The Great Derangement”. Speaking of which:

Christine: “…there are hundreds of thousands of angry-mommies right behind me.”
“You are reaching a tipping point.”

Yep, antivaxers are on the cusp of ultimate triumph. Aren’t they always? Remember years ago when Kent Heckenlively cock-a-doodled that he and his buddies were willing to magnanimously accept the surrender of pro-immunization advocates (while still threatening punishment)? A certain leader of “Millions of Health Freedom Fighters” has repeatedly proclaimed the impending downfall of pro-vaccination forces, Evil Skeptics and evidence-based medicine supporters. The Health Deranger continually crows about the inevitable collapse of his enemies.

It’s a common theme, endlessly repeated. Victory is just around the corner!

Unfortunately, real-life events (i.e. outbreaks of serious vaccine-preventable diseases due to vaccine refusers egged on by hard-core antivaxers have a way of crushing the hopes of those who dream of returning to those golden days of yesteryear, when millions annually in the U.S. alone were severely sickened, spent time in the hospital, were afflicted with permanent long-term complications or died of these diseases.

All it’s going to take is one severe outbreak with multiple deaths (Texas, anyone?) for a bunch more states to eliminate pseudoreligious/”personal belief” exemptions, no matter how many out-of-state antivaxers get bused in to harass legislators.

Antivaxers should be praying for vaccine uptake to remain high and for epidemics of exotic diseases to spare Western nations; otherwise their already shaky influence will be threatened with complete collapse.

@ Christine

You write: “I didn’t misrepresent jack shit. Ne’emen is for Ne’eman. He is incapable of advocating for anybody other than Ne’eman. Remember the ‘preliminary’ states nothing was found to suggest nose/mouth obstruction. . .Suddenly, pillows & blankets appeared & the detectives report states ‘markings consistent’ with being face down. . .I’m only giving two or I will be stuck in mod but the more I think about this the more I am sure that you are the rock thrower. You have called me names countless times. You ranted for a paragraph about how what I said was ‘STUPID STUPID STUPID’ when I had quoted Aarno. You are acting like a bully.”

Did you misrepresent Ne’emen? Yep. You relied on second-hand information from an article posted on a blog (Lutz, 2016) without any indication you attempted to find an original source, that is, what Ne’eman directly stated/wrote. Well, he wrote:

“Unfortunately, when the House passed the legislation on December 8, several modifications were made, including allowing the use of tracking devices for purposes other than locating missing persons — tracking people to prevent them from harming others, for instance. The House also wanted to pay for the program by defunding an important community policing grants program not directly related to disability. This caused my organization, the Autistic Self Advocacy Network, previously neutral on the legislation, to switch to active opposition — and also inspired several other major disability groups to pull their support. . .For many who had been willing to endorse the legislation or at least remain quietly neutral when tracking devices were explicitly limited to locating missing children, the addition of language that allowed tracking for other purposes was a bridge too far. People with developmental disabilities are often unfairly perceived as dangerous to their communities, even if they have no history of violent behavior. Allowing tracking devices — which can include locking bracelets and anklets — to be applied for purposes other than locating missing persons seemed to many critics to open up the floodgates for their use in ways that would inappropriately limit the autonomy of disabled Americans. . .Over the last decade, a growing split has emerged in the autism world. Some families argue passionately that safety concerns justify applying far more restrictive measures to their children than are common in other disability groups. On the other hand, people with disabilities themselves, and other groups of family members, tend to be more concerned that such an approach will lead to greater isolation and risk for abuse. They don’t dismiss the safety concerns, but they prefer to see other tools used to address them. . .It is in some ways ironic that Congress would take up this legislation at a time when proposals to dramatically slash Medicaid funding are putting at risk the support services and training that provide a practical solution to some of these problems. Medicaid funding is the primary financing mechanism for disability support services, including the funding of support staff that can help children and adults with significant behavioral challenges avoid danger while navigating their communities. In some states, Medicaid has paid for remote monitoring technology distinct from tracking devices – including sensors that detect if a door has been opened during the night (and wake a family member).” [Ne’eman (2016 Dec 17]

Terrie (JANUARY 15, 2020 AT 7:25 AM) already called you out on this: “Again, why did you lie about what he said?” So, whether you agree or not with Ne’eman, he certainly makes a reasonable argument, supporting tracking devices for wandering autistics children; but limiting them to just that. So, once again you show just how despicable you are as a person, attacking based on, at best, second-hand information or, perhaps, you actually did read what Ne’eman wrote and just lied to further you agenda????

First, you mentioned the re-enactment and link to what Caties Clobes wrote on Facebook. So what? It is based on mother’s recall, which is based on selective memory influenced by guilt, etc and ideas put into her head by antivaccinationists who contacted her. Orac does a great job discussing this, that it isn’t she is lying; but her interpretation is NOT the same as some objective uninvolved observers, etc. (Orac, 2019). See Zadrozny, 2019 for details of contact with antivaccinationists. Of course, if she had said she was certain vaccines hadn’t caused the tragic death of her infant, you would attack her. Don’t deny it.

We have Caties Clobes contradicting herself:

In a Facebook post from March 2, 2019, the mother described her as being on that day “in perfect health, as she was her whole life.” In her article on Stop Mandatory Vaccines, she described Evee as doing well that day: That whole day she was giggling as usual, eating solid foods, nursing just fine, no temperature, no other signs or symptoms that I could remember. Nothing out of the ordinary.

However, in her interview on Del Bigtree’s show, she claimed otherwise, describing some mild symptoms: After four hours, her cheeks started getting really red and she was really warm. I remember messaging my sister ‘I think Evee’s teething’. Later that night she just seemed a little bit ‘out of it’. The next day, I tried to feed Evee solid foods and she kept shaking her head (Reiss, 2019).

I don’t believe she was lying; but as more and more antivaccinationists gave her support and their versions, it became hers. Of course, you will choose to believe that it took time for her to remember everything, though research has found that one best remembers events within short period of time.

Then Caties Clobes contradicted herself: “She was on her back, the same position that I left her in the night before. I picked rolled her face over and saw that she was passed.” (Curtin, 2019).

So Caties Clobes contradicted herself by saying that the infant was on her back; but had to be turned to check and that she was cheery as usual then on interview with Bigtree that she was “out of it.” I’m sure you accept the validity of whatever furthers your rigid ideology. So, before even discussing the preliminary report, etc. we have contradictory evidence and it isn’t coming from the authorities; but the mother herself.

Caties Clobes was unhappy with the preliminary report which concluded “Death – Closed Undetermined”; but the report also stated: “Evee appears to be a normal sized six-month-old child, who was showing pooling of the blood on the right arm and chest area. Evee had white markings in the skin showing creases that were also located on her face indicating her right side was in contact with an object, possibly a blanket. White pressure areas on the face of Evee were consistent with a child that would have been on her face. . . One the photographs were completed, Evee was returned to her blanket.” (Wright County Sheriff’s Office, 2019)

Because Caties Clobes protest the”Undecided”, the Medical Examiner reviewed everything, finding: “All photos of Evee clearly show pooling of the blood over the front of her body and face, indicating that she was face-down in the bed when she died and for some time afterwards; this is supported by the presence of purge fluid on the sheet in the area where Evee was sleeping. The examination by Detective _____ specifically notes impressions on Evee’s face due to being face down on the blankets. Given these scene and autopsy findings, the most accurate diagnosis is positional asphyxia.” (Midwest Medical Examiner’s Office, 2019)

So, regardless of what the Detective said, we have PHOTOS! ! !

Note that while mention of pillow and blankets, it is NOT claimed they were responsible for her death. Rather, she was not on her back. Whether she had sheets under her or a blanket is irrelevant. And we have photos. I guess in your warped mind they were doctored??? Yep, the Medical Examiner wrote: “As you are aware, Evee was found dead in an adult bed which also contained you, an adult-sized comforter, and adult-sized pillos, factors which create an unsafe sleeping environment for an infant.” (ibid) And this is what numerous organizations have tried to get parents to understand. However, nowhere does he claim in this specific instance that they were directly responsible for the death. Typical how you misread things to fit your rigid ideology.

We also have Caties Clobes’s call to 911 where she stated: ““This can’t be real,” Clobes told the operator, according to a transcript of the call. “This is because she was sleeping with me.” (Zadrozny, 2019)

Caties Clobes was directed to a Dr. Miller who had previously testified on behalf of parents before the Vaccine Court. According to NBC News:

“Miller said his investigation found no evidence that vaccines had contributed to Evee’s death. He said he told Clobes of his conclusion, and had declined to support her case in the federal government’s National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, known more commonly as Vaccine Court. He declined to name the factors that led to his decision, citing concern for Clobes’ privacy.

Online, however, Clobes claimed Dr. Miller’s report offered “proof” that Evee had suffered ‘a cellular infiltration triggered by an immune response from the vaccinations.’

In an email to NBC News, Miller said the neuropathologist Clobes referred to ‘was not me, if he or she actually exists.’ (Zadrozny, 2019).

‘I did not tell Ms. Clobes of any such finding,” Miller said, “and I did not provide her or her attorney with any report which alleged any such finding.’”

“It is unclear whether Ms. Clobes does, in fact, have a separate neuropathologist or if her statements were based on some misunderstanding of Dr. Miller’s report.” (Reiss, 2019)

So, you got EVERYTHING WRONG. Yep, I missed one that you were replying to Aarno, except, you’ve said similar things before. As for being a bully, I just get sick and tired of someone who either cherry picks not only documents, but sections of documents, who ignores overwhelming evidence to the contrary, who won’t even discuss Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc and the probability of two random events occurring together, who, if not lying, certainly isn’t telling the truth. So, I will try not calling you STUPID, STUPID, STUPID, instead STUPID ON STEROIDS. Just to end this, a quote from an article by Poland (Jacobson, 2007):

Gilovich’s taxonomy of common flaws in reasoning

Cognitive determinants
Desire to find order and predictability in random data
Difficulty in detecting and correcting biases in incomplete and
unrepresentative data
Eagerness to interpret ambiguous and inconsistent data to fit theories
and expectations

Motivational/social determinants
Wishful thinking and self-serving distortions of reality
Pitfalls of second-hand information and miscommunication including
mass communication
Exaggerated impressions of social support

You should read the entire article! ! !

Note that I have a lot more articles I could have included in the reference list.

REFERENCES:

Curtin, Melissa (2019 Mar 11). Mom Asks Why Her 6 Month Old Infant Died After Getting 6 Vaccines. Stop Mandatory Vaccinations. Available at: https://www.stopmandatoryvaccination.com/parent/vaccine-injury/mom-asks-why-her-6-month-old-infant-died-after-getting-6-vaccines/

Ditz, Liz (2019 Sep 18). Evee Gayle Clobes/ A Tragic Death, Exploited – I Speak of Dreams. Available at: https://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2019/09/evee-gayle-clobes-a-tragic-death-exploited.html
Jacobson, Robert M., Targonski, Paul V, Poland, Gregory A. (2007 Apr 20). A taxonomy of reasoning flaws in the anti-vaccine movement. Vaccine; 25: 3146-3152. [Unfortunately, NOT available on internet; but most university libraries will have it]

Lutz , Amy S. F. (2016 Dec 20). 117 Autistic Children and Adults Who Died Deserve Better: Opponents of Kevin and Avonte’s Law are complicit in future deaths. Psychology Today Blog. Available at: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/inspectrum/201612/117-autistic-children-and-adults-who-died-deserve-better

Ne’eman, Ari (2016 Dec 17). Safety versus autonomy: advocates for autistic children split over tracking devices. Vox. Available at: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2016/12/17/13993398/safety-autonomy-avonte-tracking-autism-wandering-schumer

Orac (2019 Sep 25). The tragic death of Evee Clobes: How antivaxers recruit grieving mothers to their cause. Respectful Insolence. Available at: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2019/09/25/evee-clobes/

Midwest Medical Examiner’s Office (2019 Jun 26). Letter to Ms. Caties clobes Clobes. Available at: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6427421-ME-Letter-to-Clobes-Redacted.html

Reiss, Dorit Rubinstein (2019 Sep 24). Evee Gayle Clobes – another tragedy incorrectly blamed on vaccines. Skeptical Raptor. Available at: https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/evee-gayle-clobes-another-tragedy-incorrectly-blamed-vaccines/

Wright County Sheriff’s Office (2019 Apr 1). Death Investigation. Available at: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/6427394-Clobes-Death-Police-Investigation.html

Zadrozny, Brandy & Nadi, Aliza (2019 Sep 24). How anti-vaxxers target grieving moms and turn them into crusaders against vaccines. NBC News. Available at: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/social-media/how-anti-vaxxers-target-grieving-moms-turn-them-crusaders-n1057566?fbclid=IwAR2BZur9-Z23I2xZ7-wCoJp3VQRSmn2OpU30ND4eZMUJHcHyQzsEEZLhhqo

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