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No, the Americans With Disabilities Act doesn’t say shop owners have to let maskless people into their stores

Antimask activists falsely claim they have medical problems that mean that they don’t have to wear masks and, further, that the American with Disabilities Act protects them. They’re wrong.

One of the more depressing aspects of the COVID-19 pandemic has been the way that it has revealed just how politicized public health has become, including fights over relatively benign requirements such as wearing a mask in public buildings. The politicization of public health mandates is not new (nothing involving public policy can escape some degree of politics), but what is unprecedented is the level of politicization we are seeing now, including the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA, as you will see. Indeed, I first noted this a few years back when it became apparent that school vaccine mandates were becoming increasingly politicized as a result of antivaxxers’ successful messaging to the right wing by portraying school vaccine mandates as government overreach and an assault on “parental rights” and “health freedom”. Indeed, by 2015 and the second Republican Presidential Debate, several GOP candidates were blatantly pandering to the antivaccine movement by expressing support for “parental rights” and support for widely applied “personal belief exemptions” to school vaccine mandates. It wasn’t long before several powerful right wing antivaccine groups, such as Texans for Vaccine Choice and Michigan for Vaccine Choice were wielding considerable influence in Republican Primaries at the local level in some states, which saw a significant number of antivaccine legislators elected and working to block any attempt to eliminate nonmedical exemptions to school vaccine mandates.

I suppose that I shouldn’t be surprised, then (although I am a little bit) that the same politicization has infected the response to COVID-19, in particular, the discussion over whether mandates requiring mask wearing as a strategy to slow the spread of coronavirus. I will also admit that my knowledge of history was a little lacking, as I did not know that during the 1918 influenza pandemic there was resistance to mask wearing and that there was even an Anti-Mask League (also dubbed the “Sanitary Spartacans“) formed in 1919 in San Francisco. History repeats, only more intensely than 100 years ago. Also, there wasn’t the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) for antimaskers to abuse then, as there is now.

Given that I’ve recently discussed the evidence in favor of wearing facemasks in order to slow the spread of coronavirus and that Steve Novella updated that evidence last week, I’m more interested in looking at the myths that those opposing masks have cited in order to claim that, not only do masks not stop transmission of COVID-19, but that they cause harm. The evidence is now pretty strong and getting stronger that the use of facemasks decreases the risk of transmitting COVID-19, including a recent study suggesting that countries that mandated facemask use early have done better in the pandemic. There will never be a randomized controlled clinical trial of this (indeed, given what we know, it’s unlikely that such a trial would now be ethical, given the lack of clinical equipoise), but observational evidence has become more convincing. And, yes, it is true that public health officials shot themselves in the foot, messaging-wise, with mixed messages, starting out discouraging facemask use, only to do an about-face and support the use of masks. Indeed, as I discussed last time, anti-mask advocates recently weaponized the World Health Organization’s initial recommendation not to wear a mask unless you’re sick or around sick people.

Let’s start with one lie in particular that antimask advocates have been peddling (and are still peddling) to try to trick store and restaurant owners into thinking that the ADA says that they don’t have to wear a mask. For instance, take a look at this woman ranting in Trader Joes in the video in this Tweet that she has a “medical condition” that makes it impossible for her to wear a facemask:

This is a common claim, so common that you might have seen this card that mask refusers have been spreading around social media and that some of them have been using to try to trick shop and restaurant owners into believing that they have a legitimate medical condition that precludes mask use. (Of course, I couldn’t help but note that the Trader Joe’s woman didn’t have any noticeable respiratory issues, given how loud and long she could yell.)

Here is the card:

ADA mask exemption

Superficially the card appears official (although official cards issued by the federal government usually have better design and lamination), but in reality it’s the sort of thing anyone with a color printer and a laminating machine could produce. Moreover, the “Freedom to Breath Agency” is most definitely not a government agency. As this news story notes:

The card looks semi-legitimate, especially if the person showing the card has a laminating machine – but it’s absolutely unofficial an unenforceable in any legal capacity. As noted by the Department of Justice, the card may include a message suggesting that exemption from face mask rules is allowed because of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) – but it’s all a sham.

It turns out that the person who originated this card is someone named Lenka Koloma, who publishes claims like this about COVID-19:

Virus is created in each and every living organism at any given time. Virus is a way how [sic] your cells cleanse themselves of toxic material that has been absorbed from an external environment. This a wonderful, natural process of your body’s intelligence for self-preserving functions.

Virus is produced when your body is exposed to any unfavorable conditions that create stress on your system. Such stressors are:

1/ Environmental toxins – smoking, alcohol, processed food, industrial chemicals (BPA, PCB, fluoride, parabens, aluminum, lead, mercury and the remaining 80,000+ chemicals in our world)

2/ Medications

3/ Emotional Stress (such as fear of disease and/or death)

4/ Physical Injury

5/ Ionized Radiation

6/ Electromagnetic Radiation ( such as 5G)

Longtime readers will likely find the claim that the body produces viruses in response to various stressors to be a familiar one. It’s the sort of thing that Robert O. Young, a cancer quack and germ theory denialist, used to claim all the time. You might recall that he was finally arrested and convicted after many years of selling snake oil to desperate cancer patients and that he lost a $105 million lawsuit by a woman whose breast cancer progressed under his treatment. Indeed, Young used to like to claim that viruses were “molecular acids“:

The point being that viruses are molecular liquids or gases (venom) that can be created by chemical imbalances in humans, plants and animals (by malnutrition or toxic acidic food and/or drink consumption), also created in humans, plants and animal glands, sometimes used in defense (snake venom) or emergency (overactive adrenals), also can be crystallized in laboratories, rarely, if ever crystallized in vivo, and foolish to call viruses contagious when viruses are nothing more than acidic liquids or gases from biological transformation or rotting matter.

It’s funny how germ theory denialism of this sort permeates so much of alternative medicine. That’s why it’s not surprising that germ theory denial is coupled with denial of the efficacy of masks. In any event, the US Attorney’s Office for the Middle District of North Carolina issued a denial:

The Department of Justice also warned people:

The Department of Justice has been made aware of postings or flyers on the internet regarding the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) and the use of face masks due to the COVID-19 pandemic, many of which include the Department of Justice’s seal.

These postings were not issued by the Department and are not endorsed by the Department.

The Department urges the public not to rely on the information contained in these postings and to visit ADA.gov for ADA information issued by the Department.

Nor was the above card the only example of such fraudulent “medical exemption” cards:

And, meanwhile, various right wing groups are trying to weaponize the ADA against stores enforcing mask wearing:

This incident goes to show how far anti-mask activists will go to try to misuse and abuse a law for their own purpose. Of course, the ADA does not mean that business owners must allow maskless people into their buildings, particularly during a pandemic and even more so when there is a lawful order from the governor for shopkeepers to require masks:

If a person with a disability is not able to wear a face mask, state and local government agencies and private businesses must consider reasonable modifications to a face mask policy so that the person with the disability can participate in, or benefit from, the programs offered or goods and services that are provided. A reasonable modification means changing policies, practices, and procedures, if needed, to provide goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to an individual with a disability. The requirement to modify a policy, practice, or procedure does not include individuals without disabilities, as they are not protected under the ADA.

Examples of reasonable modifications to a face mask policy

  • Allow a person to wear a scarf, loose face covering, or full face shield instead of a face mask;
  • Allow customers to order online with curbside pick-up or no contact delivery in a timely manner;
  • Allow customers to order by phone with curb-side pick-up or no contact delivery in a timely manner;
  • Allow a person to wait in a car for an appointment and enter the building when called or texted; or
  • Offer appointments by telephone or video calls.

During a pandemic, it’s not too hard to see how that last one could apply to those refusing to wear a mask. As for legitimate medical reasons not to wear a mask, contrary to what the anti-mask brigade will claim, the list is quite short:

  • People with severe (not mild) respiratory ailments, such as asthma, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), or cystic fibrosis.
  • People with post-traumatic stress disorder, severe anxiety, or claustrophobia, for whom masks can cause severe anxiety or even fear.
  • Some people with autism, who are sensitive to touch and texture and for whom covering the nose and mouth with fabric can cause sensory overload, feelings of panic, and extreme anxiety.
  • Persons who have extreme difficulty putting on and removing a mask without assistance.

That’s really about it, and even many of these people can learn to function with a mask. Personally, my favorite response to this mask exemption card would be this brilliant riposte:

Sadly, facemasks have become yet one more flashpoint, one more symbol, in the culture wars, and it doesn’t help that President Trump himself recently explicitly said that some Americans wear facemasks not as a means of preventing the spread of COVID-19 but rather “to signal disapproval” of him and that so many are portraying wearing masks as somehow unmanly, leading one columnist to lament that it’s “worrisome that, in order for us to survive as a species, spouses and daughters or sons must scour Etsy for Venom-themed masks so that their 52-year-old packaging-engineer husbands and fathers can feel gender-secure when they pop out to Safeway for some milk.” Indeed, over on his own blog, our fearless leader discussed the facemask war that has erupted around the country. Seemingly every day, I come across videos of people ranting and spewing misinformation against masks while they refuse to wear one:

You’ll find ugly (and sometimes racist) memes implying that mask wearing is cowardly:

Or that mask wearing is a sign of emasculation or submission:

Or that mask wearing is about control, not public health:

https://twitter.com/va_shiva/status/1277306080419332096

Mandates to wear masks to slow the spread of COVID-19 have even been likened to the masks that slaves were sometimes forced to wear:

And then I saw this:

I can’t even. First, antivaxxers appropriated the yellow Star of David; now antimaskers. Sadly, it makes sense, given how frequently they are the same people.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

155 replies on “No, the Americans With Disabilities Act doesn’t say shop owners have to let maskless people into their stores”

Prof. Doron Dorfman, who does really excellent work on disability rights, has a editorial out on how this exploitation of disability claims harms the disabled. http://law.syr.edu/news_events/news/professor-doron-dorfman-being-anti-mask-doesnt-make-you-disabled

And as pointed out by my friend Kathy Hennessy, this one is also sold by an anti-vaccine leader:
https://www.facebook.com/KathleenHennessy51/posts/669905853591183?cft[0]=AZXBtREgXCjgz1zPscx0peYUpCaDpgE4dfG5nxySmz9fp1F5VgIp4lJ29HwQl0U1_ZgCz3n4hQpVGfo7F7snF44vCu6lRDXYg0BpgWRJecr2chuSozYKsUq4fNVd5XZaUYk&tn=%2CO%2CP-R

It’s pretty evident that the antivax crowd doesn’t care about the disabled, expect to the extent that it directly impacts and inconveniences them. Just more proof.

Alas, I can’t access Prof. Dorfman’s article from the EU. I wouldn’t say damn the data protection laws as they’re quite meaningful but sometimes, the world doesn’t think so.

Anyway, when face protection was mandated here, TV anchors wore them. Admittedly, mask wearing changed into some sort of fetishism – mask will protect you against everything, yeah! and whenever I see someone with a badly fitted N95, I just sigh, but on the other hand, it took about five minutes before people started making masks with football team or company logos and changed them into sort of funny fashion accessories. I yet have to score some with the university seal, for whatever the reason, these are hard to come by.

She told me to take off her shoes. So I did. She told me to take off her shirt. So I did. She told me to take off her pants. So I did. She told me to take off her braw and panties. So I did.

“Never let me catch you wearing my things again,” she said.

Meh.

But I never felt so r/suddenlygay as when I donned my own DIY PPE.

The thing that peeves me the most is that the same anti-maskers that are so quick to claim they are “protected” from wearing a mask by the disability legislation IGNORE THE LEGISLATION FOR THOSE WITH ACTUAL DISABILITIES! They fight wearing masks but they won’t clear ramps of snow for wheelchairs, block access to Handicap Parking spots ……….

Hypocrites!!!

/rant mode

So very, very true. Also, these antimaskers are often the same people who believe that business owners should have almost unlimited leeway to serve or refuse to serve anyone they like, for instance those arguing that a baker is not obligated to make a wedding cake for a gay couple because of his religious objection to homosexuality.

Interesting.
Over the past few weeks, a number of commenters have brought up A Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchmann. I mentioned that the Code of Chivalry prescribed courage to the point of recklessness. And the refusal to wear masks is an exemplar of the attitudes Tuchmann warned against.

Actually I find wearing a mask surprisingly difficult. I have used facemasks temporarily when grinding and sanding so was not expecting issues when I went shopping wearing a mask. However I soon found in the trapped heat from breathing made it itch and in frequent adjusting I was touching my face more than normal, which is a bit self defeating. I also noticed I was getting distracted and a headache as my eyes kept trying to gain focus on the rim of the mask over the nose. Shopping is tiring enough on the eyes as I need to keep putting on and off reading glasses whilst scanning shelves and reading labels and of course they fog up as well if perched on the nose whilst wearing a mask. I don’t need glasses for daily use, albeit they help when driving, so it is probably time to get some varifocal glasses but I really do not want to visit the opticians in lockdown, even if they are open. Notwithstanding I do fully accept that these are my issues and I need to address them if I am to use public transport say, however generally I will avoid anywhere where I have to wear a mask.

I also noticed I was getting distracted and a headache as my eyes kept trying to gain focus on the rim of the mask over the nose.

“and of course they fog up”

I’ve heard tell that an even film of soap will fix this. Use diluted Dawn or castille soap; get them wet, rub a soapy finger around — of course, don’t make them sudsy — shake off excess water and let them dry or dab drops off with a lense cloth. The soap will break the surface tension of condensation droplets leaving again a clear film of soapy water.

— also, there are anti-fogging sprays

— If it is a cloth covering, one may sew in a pipecleaner so the mask can be better fitted around the bridge of the nose or pull it up higher on the nose and use the glasses over it for a better seal. Note that a well fitted and sealed dome-type such as N95 may still fog them up.

There are anti-fogging sprays, and an old motorcycle racing tip for keeping face shields clear is to rub a piece of cut raw potato on the surface.

There are anti-fog sprays, and an old time motorcycle racing tip for face shields is to rub a piece of cut raw potato on the surface.

If your N95 mask fits properly, there won’t be leakage around the edges of the mask and therefore no fogging. A real N95 will have two straps, both going around the head rather than ear loops, and will have a metal piece over the nose bridge that should be shaped to provide a good seal. Read the instructions with the mask for proper donning and doffing, and checking for proper fit.

Use diluted Dawn or castille soap

I imagine many pathogens would simply give up if the alternative were trying to fathom Dr. Bronner’s prose stylings.

@Cloudskimmer

You’re right. The one I have is crap. The foam strip is like some stupid fishtank prefilter stuff and does not seal at all — Thin strip of tissue paper puffed right off.

We’ve started a ‘chat’ amongst co-workers about masks – it turns out that mask comfort has been ridiculously personal, with people trying multiple different sorts to find ones that work for them. The over-ear thing has been a big issue, with people either wearing ones with back-of-the-head straps or little adjustable plastic widgets that connect the ear straps behind the head. Glasses fogging was a common issue, and a combination of anti-fog (some good stuff out there for skiing and diving) and having the sort of mask that has a nose clip (or DIY with a pipe cleaner, as Tim mentioned) makes a difference. But there’s also just plain fit, like shoes or underpants, where some people have had to try out a number of different styles and brands to find the ‘right’ one…

For me, what’s worked best is alternating. I have three different masks that I swap around every time I go out, so what’s uncomfortable doesn’t have a chance to persist and chafe, as it were.

As a surgeon who’s been wearing masks, sometimes for many hours at a time in the operating room, ever since I was in my early 20s, I’ve known about all these issues for a long time. My biggest problem hasn’t been fit, but finding masks that don’t result in my glasses fogging up. Back when I was a resident, there were no masks with either the sticky inner strip along the bridge of the nose or the antifog foam strip there to block air from shooting up under my glasses when I breathed. So I had to use tape. Yes, tape. Over time, I’d develop ugly raw spots on the bridge of my nose from the tape. These days, it’s so much better. The fog-free surgical masks really do work.

@Cloudskimmer

The one I tried out (branded as Silver Shield) in early March had the easily compressible foam strip and metal strip. Glasses would fog. Albeit, only along the bottom quarter to half at a temp of ~68-70F. Maybe others have a vapor barrier some length and width around the bridge but this one did not.

Interesting. However, it’s my understanding that if air is going out to fog your glasses, it can also come in, unfiltered, and defeats the purpose of an N95 mask. It sounds to me like yours doesn’t fit properly. If it is an N95, however, it’s probably still providing you better protection than a cloth mask. I’m wearing an N95 (bought long before the pandemic and with an exhalation valve—now taped over) for grocery shopping, but wear a cloth mask when out for exercise, since there is little likelihood of getting within 6 feet of another person. On cold mornings my glasses get fogged up with a cloth mask, but not with the N95. I’m still insecure when a runner or cyclist goes by, puffing and panting and probably spewing out lots of particulates, and try to avoid that by crossing the street, and going upwind. Paranoid? Maybe, but I don’t want to get sick.

I have to wear either 3M P3 (N100) particulate respirators 8233, with outlet valve or 3M 6500 series ‘half face mask’ with both ABEC and P3 (N100) inlay filters at work. Either against dust or harmful or right out dangerous chemicals.
For hours on end during sometimes very physical work.
Although there are outlet check valves, you will sweat. It get’s itchy. It’s uncomfortable.

But it keeps me from dying.
So I don’t even complain.
Wearing a mask for shopping 20 minutes is nothing.

Wearing a mask for shopping 20 minutes is nothing. – As you get older you will start to find the nothings turn into something. My weekly shop usually takes over an hour, especially when one has to queue to get in, are constrained to trundle around a one-way system avoiding others, and queue again to pay because of the social distancing measures. Notwithstanding I have quite good eyesight, my issue revolves round eye strain because my eyes are already under pressure in a supermarket operating at the limits of my aged ability to focus nearby without reading glasses, but which impede vision further afield, and the mask just compounds this. Hopefully when the rush has died down I can get a few masks to try out but right now I have to live with what I have.

@marquisdemoo
“As you get older you will start to find the nothings turn into something. ”
Isn’t that “as you get older, you’ll turn nothings into something cos complaining about absolutely every single little thing is 3/4 of what is left in life for some’?

Longtime readers will likely find the claim that the body produces viruses in response to various stressors to be a familiar one. It’s the sort of thing that Robert O. Young

It was familiar, but I sorta forgot about this dude.

The point being that viruses are molecular liquids or gases (venom)

And now that I got my booster, my immune memory will remember this quack for some time.
I started as a microbiologist, and I have colleagues working on scorpion venom, so this sentence was very painful to read. I just doubly facepalmed over the stupid, and then the guy drops a bracketed punchline making me wish I had more hands to facepalm with.
This sentence is also a nice example of how two wrongs don’t make one right.

Re: Larry Cook and his new normal
Another twitter person was kind enough to provide the history behind the picture of this gagged enslaved woman (I cannot find it right now). True nightmare fuel.

Larry Cook should go stand on top of a hill during a storm, with his feet in a tin basin of water, waving a 10-foot steel rod and yelling obscenities at any passing thunder god.

My thought is that if the president hadn’t made an issue out of it that it wouldn’t have become a war. His choice assured that anybody voting “Trump” would be willing to fight about it. My feeling also is that the discussion will change if he manages to contract the disease.

I think Britain opened later than the US in large part because Johnson got sick.

At this point, I really don’t want Trump catching it. He’s in a very vulnerable-to-death demographic, and if Pence is the 2020 candidate, he’s good at pretending to be the normal one in the context of Trump, and avoiding answering questions, so he’s dangerous politically.

At the moment, it seems like it’s just everyone around Trump getting it.

The CDC has a communication titled, “How to make Cloth Face Coverings.”

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/how-to-make-cloth-face-covering.html

Rubber bands are recommended for the cloth-mask construction, although, the CDC has warned of latex allergy through repeated exposure.

https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/98-113/default.html

@ Orac,

Is it safe to follow the CDC’s unsafe manufacturing process, knowing rubber bands are often made of natural rubber latex?

@ Narad,

Please advise.

Rubber bands are recommended for the cloth-mask construction

No, they’re not. Get some fucking hair elastics. Better yet, get an actual fucking mask — I don’t know when that page was written, but they’re handing them out like candy at the outpatient clinic I go to, and nearly everyone on the street opts for them over the bank-robber look.

Moron.
Go to a sewing supply shop and have a look at a garden variety elastic. The rubber fibres are covered by textile fibres. Nothing like rubber gloves.
Also, moron, when in a sewing supply shop, ask for non-rubber elastic. Elastane, silicone, whatnot.

A bit of thinking, eh?

@ Dangerous Bacon
That must really be a lady with a weird anatomy. At least three lungs, while most people just have to do with two.

So that is why I see a photo of president Netanyahu wearing a mask.

He’s probably trying to keep a low profile in case his plan to subvert his corruption trial implodes.

Anyway, I’m having a devil of a time trying to pin dow ftbagency-dot-com. As in GeoTraceroute’s placing the path backwards from me to… Norway. I also am unsure of the routinely reported DBP registration when multiple sources have it registered by wix-dot-com on June 20. In particular, ftbagency-dot-net seems to be some sort of marketing offshoot.

^ Sorry, I should have noted that this, ah, coincidence was noted after perusing the source of the ftbacency-dot-com site, which seems to be down all of a sudden, but I’m sure that’s just a glitch.

^^ Ah, they’ve swapped out the content from ftbagency-dot-com with that from ftbagency-dot-net and redone the latter, with an interesting new lede.

Busy beavers, but… “We believe that people and animals shall be free”? It’s an awful lot of work for low comedy at this point.

“which seems to be down all of a sudden, but I’m sure that’s just a glitch.”

Yea, I guess it could also be that RI hugged it to death. I also note that this post is currently #3 on r/coronavirus with 2,181,516 ‘subscribers’.

I also note that this post is currently #3 on r/coronavirus with 2,181,516 ‘subscribers’.

I don’t even know what that means. I’m going to rest my back before I do the exercises for my mediocarpal arthritis.

It is #2 now. {No “who does #2 work for” jokes, please., fuck that, bring them on.}

“I’m going to rest my back before I do the exercises for my mediocarpal arthritis.”

I don’t even know what that means but i’m thinking it is not a cat thing. Sounds painful. Manage, I hope; get ‘better’, they say.

Guhh. I’ve missed out on the ‘fun’. Idk css stuff or how to pass it through URL. Idk div, stylablebutton, or admin. The examples were right there. Were, because the only one left seems to be

Search Results
It looks like there aren’t any great matches for your search
Tip: Try using words that might appear on the page you’re looking for. For example, “cake recipes” instead of “how to make a cake.”
Need help? Check out other tips for searching on Google.

Web results

Thrift Store with a Twist: Greater Huntsville Humane Society …

Maybe there was that one instance I saw all those examples through the vpn which now is out of chicago because my fave atlanta one folded. — google just says I’m a robot. Dropping the vpn gave me that one result. I am ashamed I skipped leg… css day.

But that is neat. It is like some out of the way wall where one may graffiti a message givin they know how to use spray paint.

🧏

Q. If homemade protective masks are made with rubber binders as the CDC teaches, will a growing population of individuals with latex allergy thereafter be covered by the ADA?

Historically, an individual with latex allergy was not covered by the ADA in that a latex-free environment could be reasonably accommodated. Now that the CDC recommends cloth face coverings made with rubber bands (i.e, natural rubber latex), the possibility of a latex-free environments essentially disappears.

https://www.businessinsurance.com/article/20011213/NEWS/2000226/latex-allergy-not-covered-by-ada-jury-finds#

@ Orac’s minions,

Does the CDC need to step-it-up and provide a process wherein the cloth face coverings are NOT manufactured with natural rubber latex?

Does the CDC need to step-it-up and provide a process wherein the cloth face coverings are NOT manufactured with natural rubber latex?

Wow, two attempted bites at the apple, with persistent fantasy. Go bother PlastCare, Doucheniak; I’m sure they’ll be dee-fucking-lighted to answer your calls.

Be sure to record them for everyone’s edification.

They do. There are dozens of patterns online for masks with ties rather than elastic. If you’d spent even a moment looking you could have found them. Which means you don’t want to, which means you’re trolling. Again.

Every single one of the ~200 masks I’ve sewn has no elastic at all, just fabric. So stop acting like there’s no such thing as an elastic-free mask, you miserable ninny.

My main mask has cloth ties that go behind the head. I love it, because it’s really easy to undone and leave around my neck and then put back on as needed. While the design isn’t as fun as the ones I have with elastic bands, it’s my favorite.

Hey moron, if you don’t like the CDC pattern, after all, you’ve been inferring that they are useless because what if, why don’t you google any of those bajillion mask patterns out there that would be convenient for you?

@ kultakutri,

The CDC teaches the preparation of homemade masks using rubber bands, often made of natural rubber latex, for Covid-19 safety. Latex-free hospitals deny the use of said masks, in their facility, for well known safety reasons (i.e., latex allergies.)

Q. Is this scenario a conundrum for consumers.

A Latex free environment could be easily accommodated?

Try going to Physical Therapy anywhere and you will come in contact with Latex. Every PT department, both hospital and private within 100 miles of my home uses those damn Latex exercise bands.

Since I am allergic to Latex from decades of contact working in hospitals, just walking into a building with a PT department and I start wheezing within three minutes.

Latex should be outlawed in any patient setting.

If Trump has an ADA cronie in the Florida Transportation Builders Association, Inc. , it might not be so easy to rule out. And, given “posses” (he is the ‘law and order president’), he may even have penned it himself. Stern Wilbur Ross ghost rebuff of DoJ in 3,2,1…

“Freedom to Breath Agency”

That’s very progressive of them. I imagine they’ll soon trade their maga hats for “I can’t breathe” tee shirts.

Originally was gonna post a youtube by Thunderf00t, debunking the Nino Vitale video with real science and a better test setup. But that video got pulled by YT.
https://twitter.com/thunderf00t/status/1280295421164900353

Nino Vitale also thinks wearing a mask is wrong because then you hide your face. And who did create human faces to be like his? So hiding your face would be insulting to him, apparently.

Harold’s link needs to be seen. That guy is not that umm F…..ed + modifiers, he knew he was being misleading because God. Idk if he is the originator of this but it has been spreading that “the face is the likeness of God” — And they are spraying out the message as evangelicals tend to do.

https://youtu.be/PCHdhVSWP8E?t=725

Yeah Tim, he’s a special one.
That video by him got pulled too by the way, just like the mirror of the debunk.

Another new mirror of the debunk video. https://jwp.io/s/I2zbyCiJ.
Mask O2/CO2 testing from 27:30 minutes in by Thunderf00t with better equipment and a more serieus attempt to measure the influence.

so many are portraying wearing masks as somehow unmanly

“getting more people — particularly the swaggeringly toxic mask-averse males of the species — to don face coverings in public”

Show them this. I don’t think these guys are wanting to appear more masculine — Maybe they are trying to imitate Charlie Kirk Turning Point USA supporters??. This is ’70’s comedy sterotypical. I’m pretty sure a normal ‘bromance’ doesn’t begin with honey, girllll, or sounding like the kid who spent 3 weeks at the speech therapist after getting his teeth knocked out.

https://twitter.com/loganxhardcore/status/1279594596339761152

heavy (dot) com/news/2020/07/corey-hannon-fire-island-coronavirus-twitter/

Also, WTF??? I heard Cuomo chastising Fire Island this morning but wasn’t paying attention. Dayum. SMH.

“masks in lumberjack plaids” — Umm, that has the potential to be problematic:

so many are portraying wearing masks as somehow unmanly

Tell that to Lord Humongus (either the movie character or the wrestler (1) ). Or to Bane. Or a few hundred bulky Ninja warriors in various media (let’s start with Sub-Zero, Scorpion and Storm Shadow).
I could point to Batman & co, but those are wearing an eye mask, not a mouth mask.

(1) trivia: there is a Lord Humungus who made pancake and pronounced wedding at a Wasteland festival.

lol, those comments though.

“Meh, waffles would have been manlier.”

— “If you want waffles, take the pancake and STOMP on it. If you’re wearing the right boots, you get waffles. If you’re wearing something lesser, you get what you deserve. >:)”

I have a mask, although I don’t need to use it much. If anyone had impugned my manhood while I was wearing it I’d have made a very simple statement.

“I’m not wearing it because I’m particularly concerned about my own health. I’m wearing it so that I won’t be responsible for the death of somebody’s grandparents. What’s your excuse?”

I’m a pretty severe asthmatic, I also have trigeminal neuralgia. A mask causes me pain. I still wear one. We’re not required to wear masks in shops here in the UK and I wish it was the case.

I ventured into the supermarket yesterday for the first time yesterday as I’ve been shielding and I was the only one with one on.

I don’t get the mentality, vulnerable people can’t stay at home forever.

So on one hand you attack someone for being Jewish and on the other hand you liken her actions to protect people from a serious disease with Nazi-Germany and we know what happened with the Jews in Nazi-Germany.
Please forgive me, but I can’t wrap my head around it.

Oke, I copied the tag line, should have checked. My bad. Not my country ;o)
That doesn’t surprise me at all. This level of stupidity must result in spectaculair interesting worldviews.
Good luck Ohio, you’ll need it.

VIdeo is back up on the original channel, Thunderf00t.

Testing with a mass spectrometer, sample taken from within different types of masks at about 27:00 minutes into the video.

YouRube == Google. And, yea, I suspect some algorithm is picking up on the debunking as countering ‘the truth’ from a well-subscribed contributor (our AI overlords are fucking steupid, it seems) or just the hash of the video itself at this point.

Well, with the chance that it’s pulled again, I post a link for the 3th time to the video about debunking the oxygen depletion of masks by Thunderf00t, this time on his secondary channel, VoiceOfThunder. But this time it’s more than 10 hours up already.
So, a scientist measuring O2 and CO2 inside a mask with a lab-quality mass spectrometer rather than the ‘experiment’ by anti-vaxxer Nino Vitale, an Ohio State representative. Experiment at about 27 minutes in. Rest is also about debunking breatharians he did earlier.

Sorry for the ‘triple post’ cos YT “AI” even after thoroughly human review pulled a science video.

I knew there were idiots, but I suppose this mother beats everything. You have a vunerable child and take her to a place where she is likely to pick up a dangerous virus. Then you decide not to take her to a doctor, but try to treat her yourself and if she has trouble breathing, you still don’t take her to the doctor but put her on her grandfathers oxygenmachine. And if you take her to the hospital and she can’t breathe, you decline intubation. I hope there is a special warm place for this mother, who probably will play the martyr card because she lost her daughter.

When I was reading the story this morning, it noted that the mother got really angry that the doctors wouldn’t give her daughter hydroxychloroquine, and has recently shared anti-mask posts on FB.

What really makes my head explode is that the ME’s report says the mother is a nurse!

That the mother was a nurse was something that suprised me as well, when I opened the coronersreport.

When I was reading the story this morning, it noted that the mother got really angry that the doctors wouldn’t give her daughter hydroxychloroquine, and has recently shared anti-mask posts on FB.

She’s also switching her prescriptions from Target because of their “new policy on transgender restrooms/dressing rooms.” Why she posted the to the CVS FB page is anybody’s guess.

The part of this “viral” meme that says the mom intentionally exposed her daughter to the virus is evidently unfounded. The medical examiner’s report makes no mention of it and I haven’t seen any confirmation elsewhere.

Mom should definitely have known better than to allow her vulnerable kid to go to such a mass event, and then attempt to treat her at home when she got sick.

I agree, I don’t see it as a Covid-19 party, more like a gathering without safety-measures, which of course is bad enough.

Take a child with an auto-immunedisorder to a gathering with no safety-measures, What could possibly go wrong? (Retorical question.)
What did her mother think?
God would protect her?
It still amazes me a nurse could do this kind of things.

Mom should definitely have known better

She latched on the Trump/Raoult “game-changer” to try to cure her daughter. She apparently was also posting comments on Faebook showing that she was into Q-sphere conspiracy theories and antivaccine stuff.
I’m afraid she was too deep into the rabbit hole and stopped knowing better a long time ago.
She is responsible for her own choices and actions, but the people who enabled and feed her distorted view of reality share a big responsibility in her daughter’s death.

‘Trump o’ the Tropics’ gets:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/07/americas/brazil-bolsonaro-positive-coronavirus-intl/index.html

Sometimes known as the “Tropical Trump,” President Jair Bolsonaro has derided Covid-19 from the beginning of the outbreak as just a “little flu.” He undermined his Health Ministry’s call for social distancing with showy, unmasked outings and eventually fired respected health minister Luiz Henrique Mandetta.
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Yet as a testament to Bolsonaro’s power of persuasion on the 30% of the population that polls show are still loyal to him, one supporter I met was convinced that coronavirus is much ado about nothing.
“It could exist,” activist Mario Schwartzmann said. “But if it exists, it is weak.”

…”It’s crazy. Science is being ignored in this government as it has never been before,” she said.

After Bolsonaro fired his health minister and the replacement quit within a month, a loyal general with no public health experience is now in charge of Brazil’s pandemic response.

And after Donald Trump sang the praises of hydroxychloroquine, Bolsonaro ordered his military to stockpile millions of doses and ordered that the controversial malaria drug distributed in public clinics. “Even if even if there are no side effects, that is money that could go to buy ventilators and diagnostic test kits,” she said.

…”This is really scary because we’re talking about opening churches and schools and pubs and restaurants,” Pasternak said. These are places where you get people together, which is exactly what we’re trying to avoid. And then these people are not even going to wear masks.”

The lower house of Congress did pass rules for mandatory mask wearing in churches, schools, shops and prisons, but Bolsanaro vetoed essential parts of them.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/06/americas/brazil-coronavirus-sao-paulo-reopens/index.html

Aaand he’s taking hydroxychloroquine. He just needs bleach enemas and a flat earth tirade to hit crank Bingo.

In other news…

for your enlightenment/ entertainment there is a new Andy J. Wakefield film being released, 1986: The Act, that discusses how a law relieved pharmaceutical companies of liability for “vaccine injury” ( see AoA and designated website) and it appears to include actors ( as well as anti-vax luminaries ) and is dedicated to mothers’ INTUITION which leads them to the TRUTH
An adamant, distressed woman** protests loudly to her husband about what went wrong because she knows what really happened. Vaccine makers’ actions are compared to auto manufacturers who allowed exploding cars to save a little money.. The website includes an alternate life history for Andy

In theatres soon. Or in living rooms, I suppose..

** who somewhat resembles Carmel Wakefield

Always find it odd when antivaxers claim that vaccine manufacturers have zero liability, while simultaneously trumpeting the billions paid out in vaccine court awards.

Dangerous Bacon: Why should that surprise you? After all, the American antivaxxers who were convinced that thimerosal is the one true cause of autism have firmly attached themselves to the sphincter of Andy Wakefield who pretended to find evidence that autism is caused by MMR – a vaccine that never contained thimerosal. The only consistency you will find among them ever is “Vaccines bad – dead children no big deal.”

@ DB – Duh. pHARMa doesn’t pay. The “awards” given to the injured/maimed/killed are funded through the excise tax on every purchased vaccine. C’mon, stop with the dishonesty. You’ve been around here long enough and know this:

National Vaccine Injury Program – “Since 1988, the program has been funded by an excise tax of 75 cents on every purchased dose of covered vaccine. To win an award, a claimant must have experienced an injury that is named as a vaccine injury in a table included in the law within the required time period or show a causal connection.”

@ Natalie

are funded through the excise tax on every purchased vaccine.

Ah, annoying, isn’t it, dealing with private businesses? They will just factor in in their final product’s price everything they had to pay for producing it.
Including taxes.

Where would you like they take the money from?

Money!!!!!?!!!!!! Don’t you know, anti-vaxxers are socialists. They oppose all profitable companies. At least those that aren’t their own. For those companies they are libertarian. Their ideology is exceedingly plastic, ready to suit any occasion.

do not open until may 10, 2023:
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<

blockquote>as he listened to the cries of joy rising from the town, Rieux remembered that such joy is always imperiled. He knew what these jubilant crowds did not know but could have learned from books: that the plague bacillus never dies or disappears for good; that it can lie dormant for years in furniture and linen-chests; that it bides its time in bedrooms, cellars, trunks, and bookshelves; and that perhaps the day would come when, for the bane and the enlightening of men, it would rouse up its rats again and send them forth to die in a happy city.

<

blockquote> — The Plague, Albert Camus, 1947

Bwahhha, who am I kidding? Carry on.

“.. it can lie dormant for years…”

I just was reminded about about how Parvo can also remain dormant in dirt for years thus endangering the doggos and kittehs.
Fortunately, they have vaccines for them.

In many anti-vaxxers’ world, Nature is pure and pristine and only Pharma creates poisons/ dangers. .

In my younger days I found the idea of Mother Nature as a kind of benign goddess quite seductive – aspirin, penicillin and all that, took me a while to realise that deadly nightshade and hemlock were also a product of the good mother. Most people only see what they’re looking for, which is why science, or at least scientific thinking, is the antidote to rose-tinted spectacles.

Denice…we can always send them to a woodpile I know….. that is full of Black Widow spiders……. ;-D

Only now Big Pharma makes vaccines which are so weak, they are useless to protect against the disease they are supposed to protect you from.

Just look at at the vaccinated kids who get the Measles when exposed to the real disease. And the Whooping Cough vaccine can make you a carrier for the disease, the CC used to have that fact posted on their website, but they took it down. They can not admit publicly anymorecthat even a single vaccine might be deeply flawed.

Plus vaccines are now filled with chemical and metal toxins that are many times higher than any baby or small child should ever be exposed to at once, at a single point in time.

The Small Pox vaccine was a one time vaccine that protected you for life, it was a device that was dipped in the vaccine (? I do not clearly remember, I was only Six) and left a circle of radiating scratches that developed into a circular scar on your left arm.

Everyone knew if you were vaccinated due to the prominent scar. If you look at the Dalai Lama’s left arm in photographs you will see an example of a Small Pox vaccination scar.

The Polio vaccine was a liquid on a sugar cube that protected you for life. I had it in the 1st Grade.

These vaccines worked well, however, you only needed one vaccine per person on Earth.

They were not moneymaking machines like the new vaccines are.

Plus now vaccine makers are protected from liability suits, and the funds for the compensation for side-effects and damage is funded by each person who gets a vaccine. Making vaccine production a win-win business.

I work in medicine, today’s vaccines are dangerous, ineffective and make people think they are protected when they are not.

They produce such a low response from human immune systems, that the antibody count are totally inadequate to protect anyone.

The Anti-Vaxxers have a point, the vaccine manufacturers have produced vaccines are the equivalent of junk food. It will fill you up, but will not protect you.

That you accept this crap is amazing to me. If you want real vaccines, then demand that vaccine manufacturers make them in a way they will be safer and effective.

A totally safe vaccine will never exist, but at least we can make them effective and less able to destroy lives through disabling toxic side-effects.

Every vaccine can be a one time vaccine, but stop trying to take a vaccine for every little disease out there. There are thousands and thousands of them, and the human immune system is not made to deal with an overload of multiple vaccines at once.

One disease, one vaccine. And give the immune system time to recover for Goodness Sake!

In medicine if we have a patient come in with multiple infections at one time, we know there is a very good chance we are going to lose the patient.

The immune system can only deal effectively with so much at one time. Stop flogging it to death.

The immune system can only deal effectively with so much at one time.

Christ, did “too many, too soon” really demand that tedious prolegomena?

“left a circle of radiating scratches that developed into a circular scar on your left arm.”

Sweet! Can I DIY this at home? Because I’m afraid to go to a tatto parlor because of all the covid.

@Aelxa Hill:

Just look at at the vaccinated kids who get the Measles when exposed to the real disease.

We have a vaccination rate of over 90%, and in every recent outbreak, more than half of the victims were unvaccinated. Doing the maths, vaccination lowers the risk of infection by 95%
A seroconversion rate of 95%, although not perfect, is still excellent. But I’m guessing that you’re one of those antivaxxers for whom anything less than 100% effectiveness = ineffective.

<

blockquote>And the Whooping Cough vaccine can make you a carrier for the disease, the CC used to have that fact posted on their website, but they took it down.

<

blockquote>
Not a fact. And the CDC (note spelling) took it down because later research showed it to be false. The “vaccines make you an asymptomatic carrier” claim is just more antivaxx BS.

Plus vaccines are now filled with chemical and metal toxins that are many times higher than any baby or small child should ever be exposed to at once, at a single point in time.

Riiiight. Which is why babies abd children keep dropping dead right after getting vaccinated. Oh wait.
We are hit with more antigens each second than are in the entire vaccine schedule. As for those “toxins”, the dose makes the poison. Even drinking too much water can kill you.
You are making claims that every commenter here has seen literally hundreds of times before, and that many of us have personally refuted many times before. You have not brought any new or fresh material. Not only are you wrong, you are boring.

Sure you can , just ask the CDC in Atlanta, GA or the VECTOR Institute in Koltsovo, Russia for some Small Pox.

Those two are the only places where Small Pox is now stored.

Good Luck.

@Julian Frost

Since you do not know that the Whooping Cough vaccine can make you a live asymptomatic carrier able to infect others, here is a PubMed published article proving it.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4482312/

And a CDC article about it….

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/6/5/00-0512_article

And now SuperBug strains of Whooping Cough are developing from using weak crappy vaccines.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200116112540.htm

And try this article about vaccines being faulty. ……

https://www.bu.edu/sph/2017/09/21/resurgence-of-whooping-cough-may-owe-to-vaccines-inability-to-prevent-infections/

I clicked on your links.
First link dates back to 2015 and says that vaccines may turn the vaccinated into asymptomatic transmitters. Not proof.
Second link dates back to 2000 and again, not proof. Just suggesting it might.
Third link: okay, you have something good. But the article argues for an improved pertussis vaccine. I actually agree. The change to acellular pertussis due to worries of harms caused by wholecell pertussis did reduce effectiveness. I would argue for a return to wholecell pertussis vaccination.
Fourth link: as for third link.
Links 3 and 4 both argue for improved vaccines.

@Julian Frost

Yes, vaccines may make you a carrier, it does not happen that frequently, but it does happen.

Link 3and 4 are saying the same as I do, that vaccines are weak and ineffective, which is why they need strong adjuveants in order to trigger the immune system.

Yet no one is calling these articles “Anti-Vaxxer” propaganda.

Yes, we need to return to whole cell, just like the Small Pox vaccine I had as a kid. Be careful, they will slap you down and label you “Anti-Vaxxer” now for saying so in this comment section.

More than a century has passed since face mask ordinances proliferated in U.S. towns and cities during the 1918-1919 pandemic flu. Face mask ordinances, where they existed, could be enforced with citations and fines, with municipal judges holding what journalists referred to as “influenza court” {<– visit the link} in which a citizen could contest the citation and hope to avoid paying a fine.

{scroll down and see KOA v. Hogan} lawyer stuff. bleck.

https://www.acslaw.org/expertforum/face-covering-requirements-and-the-constitution/

But, If I want to run up and staple 35 ply potato sack to NW’s mug…..fffffffFFFFUCK. There is something I gotta go take care of.

Well, I guess I could have an out arguing ‘penetration’. Naa, not my groove.

More like a driver’s license corrective lenses requirement? You did not correct it (such as with lasik, which has risks) then You must wear these glasses to drive==You must wear this mask to go out and buy eyeliner.

Here is Dumbp’s deal: He is a sociopath. He wants all the dying and dead to be done before his election ~2.4 million if 330 million infected. But those numbers will be dropping by then so heckofajobdonny.The best way to facilitate that? Churches. School. All students must physically attend brick and mortar ‘screwells’. Even though last week he said that for the past 2 decades that they took god out and made a bunch of libtards.

Imma gonna get to see me those blue columns of smoke rising, after all. Yeah?

“”If they were in scoool then they would not have the time to k-pop my rally and make me look steupid..

Thnk Gd I was not able to do that right now becauwe I don’t wont to get sids or artistic.

We heve a real problem in this county where they will not even allow me to become artistic. without fat-shaming me.

Natalie like other antivaxers knows that the excise tax that funds the vaccine court is collected from manufacturers. Why pretend otherwise?

“Money for the Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund comes from a $0.75 excise tax on each vaccine that kids routinely get as recommended by the CDC.

Who pays this vaccine tax?

Is it the drug companies or folks getting the vaccines?

The U.S. Department of the Treasury collects the tax from the vaccine manufacturers.

But like other manufacturing costs, they likely just add it to the price of the vaccine. They are still paying it though.”

Vaxopedia

@ Athaic asks, “Where would you like they take the money from?” How about no money collected, no mandates, remove vaccine court, and make the manufacturers liable for injuries/maimings/deaths, like they were in the past and like they are for their other products.

And to anyone, please spare me the history of the vaccine court. Yes, I know the backstory regarding vaccine shortages. I know how the court was implemented to assist the injured/maimed/dead. I know about Vaxopedia and the info from CHOP.

Attached is the Vaccine Info Sheet for the MMR. Page 2, paragraph 6 on the VIS states, “As with any medicine, there is a very remote chance of a vaccine causing a severe allergic reaction, other serious injury, or death.” https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/vis/vis-statements/mmr.pdf

How about a safer/better product? Until then, no mandates, regardless of how remote my chance of “a severe allergic reaction, other serious injury or death”

Good day.

Can you identify any really useful product or substance that won’t cause anyone serious injury or death in normal use?

I’ll save you time by noting that neither water nor sunlight meets your criteria.

Alternatively, have you checked that the products you do use are at least as safe as the MMR?

How about no money collected, no mandates, remove vaccine court, and make the manufacturers liable for injuries/maimings/deaths, like they were in the past and like they are for their other products.

I think I said this a couple of days ago, but how about a loser-pays system? Liability cuts both ways.

(I’ve suggested giving yall what you claim to want in the past, but at the time, Dorit objected that it would be too brutal to, if I may simply replace her reasoned words with mine, moronic screws such as yourself. You don’t even understand basic liability law: “like they are for their other products.”)

Be careful what you wish for, Natz.

@ Narad writes, “moronic screws such as yourself. You don’t even understand basic liability law: “like they are for their other products.”)

Oh Cheeky! Starting with the insults. I’m ALL ears. Please educate me. Tell me what I don’t understand or is this when medical tyrannist, tort liability proponent and shareholder of GSK stock, Professor Dorit REI$$ from Libtardtopia I, CA chimes in?

OT but kinda’ not….speaking of Libtardtopia I, I had to drive to Berkeley the other day. Could not believe the homeless encampment on the University Ave. off ramp. The smell of excrement and filth wafted into my car. What a shameful, dangerous mess! Where are the public healthscare officials when you need them?

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/01/21/berkeley-to-consider-putting-homeless-camp-below-university-ave-overpass/

Good day.

The smell of excrement and filth wafted into my car. What a shameful, dangerous mess!

All the more evidence that the perceived world is your unconscious mind.

@Narad, ever notice how sooner or later antivaxxers always reveal themselves to have a bigoted, dehumanizing streak?

I’d like to see an antivaxxer in court facing the kind of lawyers that the big pharmaceutical companies can afford. Do they really believe that they have the kind of bulletproof evidence required to overwhelm the Pharma resources and the majority of scientific data?

I suspect they are hoping that RFK and the rest of the antivax illuminati would put up the money and bollocks for the first test case. Fat chance.

Anti-vaxxers are counting on parading their “vaccine-injured” children in front of a jury to get sympathy. Plus it’s hard to get credible scientists to make absolute statements, even if the probabilities are lower than ice cream coming out of my tuchis. Anti-vaxxer so-called experts have no such problem.

@ Wang – Yeah. Lawsuits were so successful before vaccine court, the manufacturers (pHARMA) threatened to stop making the vaccines. Remember the history of the U.S. vaccine court? It’s been covered here ad nauseam. Besides, there are attorneys who are experts at vaccine injury litigation. I witnessed it during Plotkin’s depo.

Lawsuits were so successful before vaccine court, the manufacturers (pHARMA) threatened to stop making the vaccines.

So basically, you want the taxpayers/vaccine purchasers to subsidize ambulance chasers.

Lawsuits were so successful before vaccine court, the manufacturers (pHARMA) threatened to stop making the vaccines.

Why no, they weren’t. The question was having to relitigate the same thing over and over in different venues.

Have you looked at the package inserts for Tylenol or Pepcid? You’re taking your life in your hands every time you take an OTC drug!!!!! /sarcasm

I had to go to the emergency room after anaphylaxis from Aleve. However, I don’t think it should be taken off the market because of that.

@ EmJay – Really? Are you serious? Weak argument…not even an argument. OTC drugs aren’t mandated for school or work like vaccines. Gimme’ a break.

Natalie: “And to anyone, please spare me the history of the vaccine court. Yes, I know the backstory regarding vaccine shortages. I know how the court was implemented”

If antivaxers like Natalie are so knowledgeable about the vaccine court, why do they continually spread misinformation about its funding? Why do they lie about vaccine makers being exempted from liability? Why do they ignore the fact that a key proponent of the court was one of their own, Barbara Loe Fisher? Why do they want to return to a system that makes it more difficult for claimants to be recompensed for genuine vaccine-related injuries?

Why?

@DB writes – “If antivaxers like Natalie are so knowledgeable about the vaccine court, why do they continually spread misinformation about its funding?”

Duh. You said it earlier. The .75 excise tax paid by the manufacturers (pHARMa) is treated as an operating expense and passed on to the purchaser.

I’d like to hear a heartwarming story about the ease of navigating vaccine court. Those stories don’t exist.

Good day.

As pointed out to Natalie earlier, every business expense likely gets passed on to the consumer eventually.

That doesn’t excuse antivaxers lying when they suggest the general public/taxpayers are hit up directly for vaccine court awards. If you don’t buy a vaccine (and this includes vaccine refusers), you don’t pay a penny.

Still wondering how antivaxers reconcile their rants about the vaccine court being “rigged” against claimants, while simultaneously gloating about billions of dollars paid out (over several decades).

Brainlessness or deliberate deception? You decide.

I’d like to hear a heartwarming story about the ease of navigating vaccine court.

Perhaps you could slap a 20 on Judge Judy’s producer and find a defendant.

Andrew Napolitano is, umm, fapping the shit outta that right now and looking to see if he has precedence and venue. I’d still vote for him.

@ Dangerous Bacon

If you don’t buy a vaccine (and this includes vaccine refusers), you don’t pay a penny.

Ah, that’s right. I keep forgetting that with the healthcare system set in the USA, vaccines are not reimbursed by state healthcare.
In countries with socialized healthcare, most vaccines are free, or highly subsidized, which means that every taxpayer does pay for vaccines, even the refusers.
Don’t you have insurance plans which reimburse vaccines?

Everything has a risk, sweetie. And you’re only mandated to give you kids vaccinations if you want them to do to public schools, or if you want to work in a healthcare setting. You don’t have an argument.

I’d like to hear a heartwarming story about the ease of navigating vaccine court. Those stories don’t exist.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

@ Narad writes, “Why no, they weren’t. The question was having to relitigate the same thing over and over in different venues.” In response to my comment, “Lawsuits were so successful before vaccine court, the manufacturers (pHARMA) threatened to stop making the vaccines.” I stand corrected. By 1984, the lawsuits against DPT were so successful, only one U.S. company still made DPT.

From The History of Vaccines regarding the DPT –

“DPT Lawsuits – Through the 1970s and 1980s, the number of lawsuits brought against vaccine manufacturers increased dramatically, and manufacturers made large payouts to individuals and families claiming vaccine injury, particularly from the combined diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus (DPT) immunization. In this environment of increasing litigation, mounting legal fees, and large jury rewards, many pharmaceutical companies left the vaccine business. In fact, by the end of 1984, only one U.S. company still manufactured the DPT vaccine, and other vaccines were losing manufacturers as well.”

Good day Cheeky.

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-injury-compensation-programs

Narad’s correction referred to the fact that lawsuits do not have to succeed to be a burden. The quote doesn’t actually contradict his point. In reality, wins were not common (that’s part of the reason anti-vaccine organizations supported the act, seeking an easier venue). But a few large jury awards combined with litigation costs in suits where plaintiffs lost made making vaccines unattractive.

Lawsuits can be frivolous and still costly to a business.

Hi Dorit – Would you please provide some references for your statements above?

Regarding your beloved, GSK, these guys must have bottomless pit of funds available for their various lawsuits. No worries, though, the vaccine production folks, I’ve been told, are different….more altruistic because there is little profit in the vaccine biz…. Well, at least their scant profits are protected by the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Act. What else can be done to further insulate these multinational, billion dollar corporations from litigation? Poor GSK. They need your help! https://www.corp-research.org/glaxosmithkline

@Julian Frost

And you are clueless, I am sure science bores you to bits.

Those toxins are not the fragment of the disease, they are the adjuvents placed in the vaccine in to prod the immune system to wake up and attack the disease particles in order to force the body to make antibodies, since the bits of the disease molecule they use are too small to stimulate the immune system by theirself.

I never said the toxins were killing tons of babies and kids, I said they were damaging and disabling them due to genes the children have that make detoxing these toxins very difficult, causing damage to the body.

Try reading what I actually wrote, instead of applying a stereotype like “Anti-Vaxxer”.

I have had vaccinations, and the first two which had no chemicals or toxic metals in them, were effective and wiped out Small Pox and Polio in the US and most of the World. They were also lifelong effective vaccinations.

The new vaccinations are weak, toxic crap. The US has a Measles outbreak every couple years, and it is mainly vaccinated children who get sick since people believe these vaccines protect them.

Yes, New York City had a Measles outbreak in a Conservative Hasidic Jewish community. And note, not one of the infected died or had any lasting harm from it. The Measles is only deadly if you are weak and malnourished, it is not a fatal or harmful disease in First World nations.

As for drinking too much water, that is a stupid comparison and has no equivalency to toxic chemicals and metal known to cause damage to babies and children in much smaller doses. Try reading about modern vaccines and how they are made with toxins, in order to stimulate the immune system.

If the vaccine had enough of the disease organism in it to stimulate the immune system on it’s own, it would not be profitable. Imagine if carmakers made cars that lasted your entire life….they would go out of business in short order. In order to make money making vaccines, you need to keep the customer coming back as often as possible. Hence, the crappy vaccines of today.

And the Whooping Cough vaccines can make you a live carrier, any live vaccine can do it. That is why people who are given live vaccines are told to stay away from people with immune problems and babies for a certain length of time sftrr they receive the immunization.

And gee, my “smart”phone keeps dropping the”D” in CC….which it just did again. I typed “CDC” and it keeps changing it…..big deal. Go suck a dead fish.

And I suggest you go to the John Hopkins website, the institution in Baltimore where they developed the “herd immunity” theory back in the 1930s.

They now admit with even a 93% vaccination rate the “herd immunity” effect does not kick in….Why is that? Because the theory is not valid, and never was valid.

The theory was formed after a disease outbreak stopped once 60% of the population of Baltimore. They postulated that once you reach 60% of the “herd”population with antibodies from a disease, then those 60% act as a firebreak, protect the rest of the population from the disease.

So since then the federal government has been trying to make this theory work. First they aimed for vaccinating 60% of the American populance. Then they kept raising the rate of immunized needed. Now they are saying everyone has to be immunized to get “herd immunity”, and that is not “herd immunity” at all.

Forget “herd immunity” and forget 100% immunization with these weak useless crappy immunizations.

All you need is one person coming back from overseas, or a foreign tourist who has the Measles, and you get a Measles outbreak among the so-called “immunized” herd.

Modern immunizations are piss poor at producing adequate antibodies, and they were made that way to increase and keep profits coming in, from the need to frequently give ” booster” shots.

If the Small Pox vaccine and the Polio vaccines had been made like modern vaccines, we would still be hip deep in dead or paralyzed people every year.

I am no “anti-Vaxxer”, I am an Anti- Crap Vaccine proponent.

@Aelxa Hill:

Those toxins are not the fragment of the disease, they are the adjuvents…

I just ate a banana. There is more aluminium in a single banana than in the entire schedule. Guess I’m full of “toxins” now.

I never said the toxins were killing tons of babies and kids, I said they were damaging and disabling them due to genes the children have…

“Susceptible subgroup” combined with claims of unspecified damage.
What damage and what disabilities are being caused to these children who have certain genes? Oh, and I will want proof.

Try reading what I actually wrote, instead of applying a stereotype like “Anti-Vaxxer”.

Your claims have been made multiple times before, and refuted multiple times before. If you don’t want to be called an antivaxxer, don’t act like one.

The US has a Measles outbreak every couple years, and it is mainly vaccinated children who get sick…

False. In every single recent outbreak, more than half the victims were under- or unvaccinated. In addition, vaccination rates are still over 90%. If we compare the numbers, vaccines have an effectiveness of well over 90%.

The Measles is only deadly if you are weak and malnourished, it is not a fatal or harmful disease in First World nations.

Another antivaxx claim. And you’re (pardon the pun) dead wrong. Olivia Dahl, whom I’ve mentioned before, was not malnourished. Also
https://www.vaccinestoday.eu/stories/measles-kills-german-toddler/

An 18-month-old boy from Berlin has died following a measles infection, prompting Germany to promise measures to improve vaccine uptake.

And the Whooping Cough vaccines can make you a live carrier, any live vaccine can do it.

Now I know you’re an idiot. The Whooping Cough vaccine (TDaP) is not only not live, it is acellular. It is impossible to become a live carrier from the vaccine.

They now admit with even a 93% vaccination rate the “herd immunity” effect does not kick in….Why is that? Because the theory is not valid, and never was valid.

Actually, it’s because measles is one of the most virulent diseases around.

TL;DR: Your arguments are wrong.

@ Aelxa Hill

“I never said the toxins were killing tons of babies and kids, I said they were damaging and disabling them due to genes the children have that make detoxing these toxins very difficult, causing damage to the body.”

Fuck me sideways…

“Try reading what I actually wrote, instead of applying a stereotype like “Anti-Vaxxer”.”

Julian Frost is spot on in his assessment.

Is there any specific point in your incoherent rambling that you would wish to discuss?

I have had vaccinations, and the first two which had no chemicals

What did they have in them? The empty space between subatomic particles?

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