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Dr. Kelly Victory: Another despicable physician spreading disinformation about COVID-19

Dr. Kelly Victory is spreading dangerous disinformation about COVID-19. It embarrasse me how easily doctors spread this sort of nonsense.

One of the things about the COVID-19 pandemic that’s really distressed me is just how many of my fellow physicians are willing to spread misinformation and disinformation about SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, and the disease itself. Obviously, antivaccine physicians have always embarrassed the hell out of me, and, indeed, I’ve said on multiple occasions that they should lose their licenses to practice medicine. When it comes to COVID-19, we’ve seen Dr. Mehmet Oz promote misinformation. We’ve seen grifting doctors like Dr. Stephen Smith and Vladimir Zelenko promote an unproven drug like hydroxychloroquine as a COVID-19 cure. We’ve seen a French “brave maverick doctor” promote the unproven combination treatment of hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as a COVID-19 cure and use his fame and prominence to bully those who question him. Now, I’ve learned of another doctor, Dr. Kelly Victory, who’s been promoting misinformation and disinformation about COVID-19. A couple of weeks ago, she posted a video on YouTube that’s since been taken down. Unsurprisingly, her fans view it as having been “censored by leftists”:

Unfortunately, the video is very much available elsewhere. For example, here’s a copy of the 17 minutes of pure disinformation:

And here’s another copy:

YouTube really needs to up its game in fighting COVID-19 misinformation.

Dr. Victory—was she really born with that name?—starts out by touting her credentials as a trauma surgeon and an expert in disaster preparedness and response and the management of mass casualties. She also brags about how she’s spent two decades in public health advising Fortune 500 companies, hospitals, schools, and municipalities to “respond effectively to the worst-ever cases.” She also does what a lot of doctors all too obviously do: She appears wearing a lab coat in order to emphasize her status as a doctor and therefore, presumably, an expert. Of course, as we’ve learned, not all doctors are experts, and, just because Dr. Victory is an ER doc (although she calls herself a “trauma and emergency physician”) does not make her an expert on infectious diseases or pandemics. We’ve seen her ilk before, namely Drs. Dan Erikson and Artin Massihi, two grifting owners of a chain of urgent care centers in Bakersfield who made some rather basic mistakes in epidemiology to sell their belief that COVID-19 is not as deadly as those pointy-headed infectious disease experts were estimating at the time.

I debated about whether to take on this video, given that YouTube has already taken it down, but it’s still available on other YouTube accounts and easily accessible. It’s also being spread around Facebook and other social media. So it’s worth looking at. You can get an idea of where Dr. Victory is going from how she starts out after touting her supposed bona fides to pontificate about the pandemic:

While we clearly mourn the lives of all who became severely ill or died from COVID-19, the vast, vast majority haven’t been victims of the actual virus, but of our response and our reaction to the outbreak. Millions of Americans have lost jobs, delayed necessary medical care, have been isolated from family, missed months of school, and been prohibited from worshiping. Now, we find ourselves months into the event, and communities across the country have suffered needlessly and are struggling to find a way out of this mess.

This is one of those propaganda lines that sound convincing because there’s a grain of truth in it. We are months into the pandemic, and communities across the country are suffering needlessly. However, the reason they’re suffering is not because of the “overblown” response, but rather because our political leadership has been utterly bankrupt at the national level (and in all too many states). There is no national strategy (and hasn’t been). President Trump spent months denying the severity of the pandemic, claiming that the coronavirus would just go away when summer came and the weather got warm, and touting his administration’s risibly incompetent response as the best ever, all as over 130,000 Americans are dead from the disease and there have been over 3 million infected. The number of new cases per day is skyrocketing in several states, and, because deaths lag cases, only now are the number of deaths starting to rise.

Dr. Victory emphasizes that COVID-19 is a “mild disease in the vast majority of people,” claiming that 85% of people who contract the disease have few if any symptoms. Again, that’s a bit deceptive. It is true that probably roughly around one third of cases of COVID-19 are asymptomatic ) or so mildly symptomatic that the person with the virus doesn’t think much of it (or maybe as high as 40%). That does not mean that 85% have “few, if any, symptoms.” None of this stops Dr. Victory from playing Pangloss:

But only a very small actually require hospitalization, and, although any deaths are tragic, only a tiny fraction have died of this infection.

As I like to emphasize, the law of large numbers tells us that, even if the disease kills “only” 1%, if it infects millions, that 1% will be a huge number. The same is true if the disease “only” kills 0.1%. As Dr. Victory notes, SARS-CoV-2 is a novel coronavirus. That means that there isn’t any immunity to it, and, even several months into the pandemic, we don’t know if infection results in immunity or, if it does, how long that immunity lasts. This is contrary to what Dr. Victory claims, which is that just because COVID-19 is novel doesn’t mean that our bodies don’t know how to respond to it. Dr. Victory claims that, because our immune systems have seen “many viruses like” SARS-CoV-2 before and is “remarkably capable of adapting,” COVID-19 is no big deal for most people (except for those for whom it is a very, very big deal indeed).

Check out her brain-dead analogy:

An analogy I might make is: Although I’ve never met you, if I ran into you on the street I would have a good idea how to interact. I’d know that you’re a person, not a tree, a man or a woman, tall or short, and I would have a good idea of how to begin interacting with you, even though I’d never met you before.

This sort of analogy deserves the Godzilla facepalm:

Godzilla facepalm

Seriously, WTF? Viruses are not human beings, and human social interactions are not a analogy for how the immune system deals with new viruses. Dr. Victory’s analogy might sound reasonable to the lay person, but to anyone with any knowledge of how the immune system actually works it is one of the silliest analogies ever.

She then launches into a number of claims that range from unproven to pseudoscientific to having a grain of truth vastly oversold.

For example, Dr. Victory notes that “most mutations” in viruses end up making the virus weaker or less lethal. While this can be true for viruses that are highly lethal, given that killing too many of one’s hosts could interfere with optimal replication and spreading, in the case of COVID-19 it’s hard to see how there is much selective pressure for less lethality. After all, 30-40% of cases are asymptomatic, and the infection fatality rate (IFR) is very likely under 1%. When over one-third of infections are asymptomatic (and asymptomatic infected people can spread the disease) and less than 1% of those infected die, it’s hard to see much evolutionary selection pressure on the virus for less lethality. Indeed, the evidence currently existing is that the lethality of coronavirus has probably not changed significantly since the pandemic began. It might be that doctors are becoming more adept at treating severe COVID-19, but it’s still potentially deadly.

Dr. Victory also claims that the virus can’t survive outside the body for more than a few minutes if the temperature is more than 70° F and “certainly not when the temperatures are in the mid-80s or higher.” Clearly, the unbridled spread of coronavirus in Florida, Texas, and Arizona in—checks calendar—July would beg to differ with this assertion.

Unsurprisingly, Dr. Victory next goes on to emphasize that it’s mainly people who are older and have preexisting diseases or other medical conditions who are most at risk for severe disease from the virus. Yes, we know this. Scientists have known this since very early in the course of the pandemic. It’s a frequent trope trotted out by COVID-19 deniers that it’s only old people and those with “preexisting conditions” who are most at risk of dying from COVID-19. We get it. You don’t care if old people or “useless eaters” die from the disease. I also note that a fair number of younger adults have been hospitalized with severe COVID-19

In fact, though, Dr. Victory goes beyond this, claiming that very few children suffer severe consequences from COVID-19 or die from it and that “all of them” had severe underlying health issues. This is one of those tropes that is partially true but incomplete. Yes, it is true that children are much less likely to suffer severe health effects from COVID-19:

Researchers analyzed data on 4,226 COVID-19 cases reported to the CDC from Feb. 12 to March 16 by 49 states, three U.S. territories and Washington, D.C. The CDC had complete age data for 2,449 of these patients.

The CDC found 31 percent of all cases involved individuals age 65 or older. This age group also accounted for 45 percent of hospitalizations, 53 percent of intensive care unit admissions and 80 percent of deaths.

However, the report also shows that millennials “are not invincible,” STAT wrote in an article about the CDC analysis. Of the 508 cases known to involve hospitalizations, 20 percent involved patients ages 20 to 44, and of the 705 cases in that age range, between 14.3 percent and 20.8 percent were hospitalized. About 2 percent to 4 percent of patients in this age range required treatment in an ICU.

That’s a lot of Millennials.

Particularly despicable is how Dr. Victory dismisses the virus as primarily a problem in nursing homes. She argues that, outside of New York City, the virus has primarily been a problem of nursing homes. While it is true that nursing homes have been hard hit by the coronavirus, to dimiss it as primarily a problem of nursing homes (at least as far as deaths are concerned) is incredibly irresponsible and not accurate.

Dr. Victory, as many COVID-19 deniers do, portrays the public health response to COVID-19 as overblown. For instance, she claims that “social distancing” is not even “an established health care concept.” This is BS, pure and simple, as a search of PubMed led me quickly to conclude. I easily found references to “social distancing” dating back to 2006 and before in the context of pandemics. Before that, I could find references dating back to the 1990s. To claim that “social distancing” is not an established medical concept is, quite simply, either ignorance or a lie, as is her claim that social distancing was never scientifically based or never tested as a concept for responding to a pandemic. That is nonsense. We know that social distancing of 3-6 feet is effective in slowing the spread of COVID-19.

Hilariously, Dr. Victory then goes on to argue that quarantine is the way to go, while simultaneously arguing that keeping “healthy people” separated from each other through social distancing is ineffective. But wait! Wait a minute. Didn’t she just say that the vast majority of COVID-19 cases are asymptomatic or only weakly symptomatic? How, then, would you distinguish “healthy people” from those with the virus who are asymptomatic? If asymptomatic people can spread the virus, then simply quarantining people with symptoms would be ineffective. The inconsistency boggles the mind.

Particularly idiotic is Dr. Victory’s claim that the WHO, CDC, and NEJM have “acknowledged” that there is no justification for the wearing of masks and that there is no reason for “normal healthy people” to be wearing masks. While it is true that early on in the pandemic the messaging on masks sucked, increasingly the evidence is trending strongly in the direction of concluding that masks are effective in slowing the spread of COVID-19. In particular, her claim that mask wearing increases the risk of disease to the wearer. There is no evidence that this is true, nor is there evidence that the mask traps viral particles and that “rebreathing” makes it more likely that a mask wearer will become ill. I’m also totally embarrassed that a physician actually buys into the idea that masks can impair gas exchange or increase carbon dioxide levels. This is a fundamental ignorance of science that is worse than that shown by creationist physicians because we physicians are taught pulmonary physiology in great detail in medical school.

Even more ignorant is Dr. Victory’s claim that masks somehow harm our immunity because they decrease our contact with viruses and bacteria. No, seriously. I’m going to quote her here:

Furthermore, and very importantly, habitual wearing of masks decreases the body’s natural immune response. We’re supposed to come into contact with foreign things—bacteria, viruses, all kinds of things—and that’s what keeps our immune systems on alert at full capacity. If you limit your exposure to everything by constantly wearing masks or the overuse of hand sanitizers and disinfectants, your immune system, in effect, says, “Apparently I’m not needed. I’ll go on vacation, take a nap.” And it won’t be prepped and ready when you need it to mount the appropriate immune response.

The stupid, it burns. I used to joke about wearing a paper bag over my head (or even a Doctor Doom mask) in embarrassment when physicians spout gleefully ignorant pseudoscience. I’m seriously tempted to do that now in response to Dr. Kelly’s proudly ignorant blather. Particularly embarrassing (to me, at least) is her blather about immunity, particularly herd immunity. She claims that herd immunity to COVID-19 is “the best approach.” This leads her to say, :”Let people be exposed to this disease, knowing that they won’t likely become ill.” She goes on to argue that letting children get the virus is one of the best ways to promote herd immunity. No, we don’t know that. Not at all. Unsurprisingly, Dr. Victory is also very much into unproven drugs for treating COVID-19, such as hydroxychloroquine, even though the evidence is very much trending in the direction of concluding that antimalarial drugs like this do not work against COVID-19.

Dr. Victory concludes with a bit on how we should “trust our immune system.” I laughed out loud at her introduction, given that her “trust your immune system” was a blatant appeal to nature. (Remember, nature is not infrequently trying to kill us.) Yes, adequate sleep and a good diet are good for us. There’s no doubt about it. The problem is that there’s no evidence that, in the short term at least, improving diet, exercising more, and getting more sleep will prevent severe disease due to coronavirus. Basically, Dr. Victory thinks that we should all “get back to our lives.” That would be nice if we could do it, but, unfortunately, the coronavirus doesn’t care what we would like.

What’s more depressing is that Dr. Victory is apparently actually viewed as real expert. San Diego’s KUSI, for instance, takes her seriously and interviews her as an “expert” on COVID-19:

And, so, a crank continues to spread her COVID-19 disinformation.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

171 replies on “Dr. Kelly Victory: Another despicable physician spreading disinformation about COVID-19”

There is a new video going around too published by a doctor from Georgia named Carrie Madej. She talks about how the DNA-based vaccines are turning people into GMOs. She is a DO, and as a 3rd year DO medical student, it really upsets me to see such quackery.

That is a new level of “fractally wrong”.

Please tell me she thinks that a DNA vaccine will turn you into GMO corn!

No one said she’s “not legit.” I said she was wrong. Of course, when you’re as wrong as she is about so many things about COVID-19, that leads me to question her legitimacy when speaking about a viral pandemic. Maybe she knows how to deal with mass casualties from natural disasters or mass shootings, but she sure as hell doesn’t know how to deal with coronavirus.

Whenever I discover that someone is ” wrong about so many things” in general, I tend to question their credibility on other topics- whether in their area of expertise or not.
A few guidelines for sceptics.

Thus, I note when woo-meisters or anti-vaxxers quote laughably inaccurate information or easily visible errors because:
— they usually present themselves as well informed, knowledgeable and even scholarly- if they were so, they would know how to check for errors
— if someone uses words carelessly or mispronounces them, it is an alarm bell ringing loudly: wouldn’t they know how to correct themselves or at least have been exposed to a wide variety of concepts enough to correct their usage?
— it shows how slovenly their “research” skills and reporting are
— and that they can’t learn when they repeat errors, uncorrected many times.

One of the idiots I survey, continuously mispronounces names of people/ city names that are not English in origin- on top of the above, I know that his degrees are suspicious because
in his age group, in his country of origin, most college students/ graduate school students/ doctorate candidates are required to study foreign languages to some depth, showing secondary education for 3-4 years and reading and/or translation skills in at least one foreign language ( usually European)-
if you mispronounce names in SEVERAL European languages ( those most commonly taught) it shows that you haven’t studied them. Students, even in secondary school, learn the spelling patterns of the language they study so that they pronounce them correctly and can even make jokes about them. Americans who follow baseball or hockey can usually manage to pronounce Spanish or French names because they hear announcers pronounce them so many times.

A few test words: Camus, Montagnier, Mozart, Jung, Javier, Reyes, Galileo, even Leicester– I know it’s English but you catch my drift by now.

Another dangerous quack sharing misinformation and fear… Dr Victory and this woman along countless other fools are contradicting danger and making false claims ”
This woman video is truly dangerous and will cost lives…
Carrie Madej is Osteopath student ‘intern’ not yet done on 3rd year.
her video is attention seeking and only URGENt issue is disclosing that these so called doctors are arguing with actual experts, infectious disease brilliant research scholars, she’s making ridiculous claimns as to date we do not have a release on any actual vaccine, there are hundreds of countries and thousands of actual scientist-experts working on it and vaccine must make it through 3 rounds of clinical trials before being tested on select group (any vaccine claim is total nonsense, dangerous as hell & self promotion by that individual)…

“There is a new video going around too published by a doctor from Georgia named Carrie Madej. She talks about how the DNA-based vaccines are turning people into GMOs. She is a DO, and as a 3rd year DO medical student, it really upsets me to see such quackery.” #QUACK #FALSEclaims #Foolrant

“That is a new level of “fractally wrong”.
Please tell me she thinks that a DNA vaccine will turn you into GMO corn!”

you are TOTALLY unconvincing where she IS. Saying a small percentage of fatalities still makes for a large total of deaths is irrelevant. The total amount of deaths from anything is worldwide allways a large number like the total amount of deaths everyday from any disease or whatever cause is allways a large number.
People die! How are you gonna stop it?? This one argument exposes all your stupidity, the stupidity off all those led by fear. And it s fear that s the worst killer.
She is totally right about the vaccination-bullshit, where was the vaccin when in the Netherlands 2 years ago 10000 people died from influenza???? You can t get around this argument!!!! No one can!

I know one thing Dr. Kelly Victory was right on: I spoke personally to two nurses here in my state of New Mexico, and they said this: Patients in the hospital are tested almost daily, and every time they test positive, that is counted as another CASE. Exactly what Dr. Victory said. Then one nurse said, one day we messed with the tests, we sent in several tests with fake names and we swabbed nothing–every one of those came back positive. I will be sending a letter to our governor regarding this fake data because the CASE numbers are not accurate. Also I question the validity of the PCR test created by Dr. Kary Mullis as a manufacturing technique, not a test— and the CDC itself states that it is for experimental use only and not for diagnostic purposes. Scientists are saying that this virus has not been isolated. Is that true?

Scientists are saying that this virus has not been isolated. Is that true?

You are into all the conspiracies. The virus has been completely sequenced multiple times.

You’re correct Diane on the faulty testing. It is estimated that if every state wrote death certificates as they have always done, the fatality rate from this would be down 90%. And that’s not taking into account bad testing. I thought the story of people getting positive test results without ever taking the test was just an urban myth until it happened to my friend. Then you read of CT where they discovered a false positive rate of 60% and what did the FDA do? They told them how to tweak the test. Well, if you can tweak it to make it work you can obviously tweak it to get the results you want. Now how reliable is that. BUT, the fact remains, this has a very low fatality rate mostly centered around those w/ health issues. It is like the flu except it is not near so bad as the flu for children. It is ridiculous that we have let the health dept get involved in economics. The economy is life. Kill the economy and there will be far more deaths than from the virus. The CDC director has said there have been more deaths from suicide and overdoses than from the virus. Death comes to all. Most likely it will NOT be via covid. So go out and live! Every Dr thinks he’s a major deity and can spew whatever he wants. Do your own research and don’t let any of them look down on you. They are often guilty of confirmation bias.

I know for sure that Dr. Kelly Victory is right about one person testing positive multiple times and being counted as multiple cases because I spoke to two nurses here in New Mexico and they told me that people in the hospital are tested almost daily and every time the test comes back positive that is another CASE. So how can that Case count be accurate? I am writing a letter to our governor who is mandating orders based on the data that is flawed.

These kind of people make me a bit mad.
It’s mostly just talking about economic damage and elderly people who die, who would have died anyway.
Exept there are also younger people dieing from the disease and particulary those working in healthcare and having contact with Covid-19 patients are at risk.
Yes, a lockdown is bad for the economy.
You know what else is bad for the economy?
People getting ill and needing hospital care and suffer long term damage afterwards, if the ever will return to their old selves. The care these people need, also costs lots of money.
And do these people really think that if more people get ill and there will not be enough hospital care available, that people still will go on doing like nothing is wrong?
Some people state that lives are lost because of delayed treatments, but that would be a reason to try and avoid more Covid-19 cases and not let the disease run havoc. But to some it seems to be a reason to end lockdowns, so people can get the treatments they need. But if there are to many Covid-19 cases, there probably will not be enough room and personel to care for other patients.

Also, “old people would have died anyway” my shoe!
Being from a country with high life expectancy, I don’t see a 75 y.o. person’s death from covid as a normal thing, since under normal circumstances one can expect them to live 10 years more at least. There is a heck of a lot of things one can do in 10 years.

You are right, but some people seem to think old people are just the ones with one foot in the grave, people who might just have lived for a few more months, but old people still can have a good life, if they wouldn’t have been killed by this disease.

I don’t see a 75 y.o. person’s death from covid as a normal thing

My parents are in their early 70’s and in much better shape, physically and cognitively, than any of my grandparents were at that age – some actually didn’t reach it. They are active, mostly self-sufficient, and take care of my disabled sister. They would be deeply offended to be labeled a drag on society.
And the at-risk age starts around the 65-70’s. Even for the previous generation, dying in one 60’s was still seen as ‘too early’.

My mom was 78 when she died from a brainhaemorage en before she died she was a very active lady, doing voluntary work and still riding her bike in a pace even some younger people couldn’t keep up with.

People who consider elderly people as just a burden to society, who can easily be sacrificed, to save the economy, really make me mad and angry.


My grandma will be 90, she’s happy, healthy but for a few old age ailments, and active. She’s certainly not dying of a bit of arthrosis or varicose veins. While she’s not going to live forever, there are better ways to die than nasty pneumonia and being locked up in a covid ward.

Also, near my hometown, the archaeologists dug up many a settlement from some 25 000 y. BP to early Middle Ages and even in prehistory, there were people who lived to old age ev en though they were crippled. I recall one from a hunter-gatherer culture who had damaged jaw and practically couldn’t open his mouth or chew, meaning that someone had to find soft food for him or prechew it.
Especially in preindustrial societies, even that grandparent who could barely walk could sit somewhere and cut apples for drying or some such…. and the above mentioned grandma makes excellent jams which are an effing hard currency among my gourmet friends.

Old and useless my arse. When people who weren’t able to make pottery knew that it’s good to care for the weak, why can’t we do it?

Look at every flu season recorded the population of age 65 and up make up approximately 75% of the death rate for flu as well as pneumonia fact not fiction

The biggest misinformation about COVID19 is to suggest that the entire population is at risk for death (it is not); that it is one disease (it is not; it is two distinct diseases: a viral like syndrome and an increasingly severe immune dysfunction). High mortality was due to the advice by Fauci et al not to use steroids when steroids were clearly indicated. Once this nonsensical recommendation was removed, the mortality rate on those requiring ventilation, plummeted.

The refusal of Fauci et al to even consider HCQ regimens as a possible treatment to prevent the progression of the disease, and then the promotion of false studies (at least Lancet had the intellectual integrity to pull the bogus paper) to indicate HCQ was dangerous is beyond the pale.

There is a known mechanism by which diet may affect the progression of the disease. Hyperglycemia (an all too common condition in our society, with or without diabetes type 2 ) deactivates IRF5. Lack of IRF5 promotes autoimmune disease. The cytokine storm is to an autoimmune reaction (such as rheumatoid arthritis) what a CAT5 hurricae is to a thunderstorm.
There is a known mechanism by which lack of vitamin D also promotes autoimmune disease. Vitamin D suppresses autoimmunity. Vitamin D is also correlated with sunshine exposure. Adequate sunshine is also necessary for optimal immune response; including activation of cytotoxic T cells. Exopsure to sunshine and avoidance of heavily sugared snacks may alter the progression of the disease in some.

The list of misinformation, most of it promoted by the Fauci gang, goes on and on and one. When it comes down to it, there is plenty of misinformation and the blame for the misinformation is equally shared by virtually everyone who is a MD with a blog site and all those echo-chambers, claiming to be scientific sties, but lacking scientific rigor and understanding. People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones and in the case of COVID-19 everyone seems to be living in a glass house.

@ Dr Rene:

I know you must be working your butt off as an epi . Thanks for ALL YOU DO.

If you have a moment, check out the anti-Fauci remarks on the Airborne thread ( and elsewhere). You need a laugh.


Don’t you be encouragin no blasted epidemiologists! They’re obviously behind keeping this disease going so they can treat the whole world as a great big lab and produce a whole mountain range of papers. They’re worse than those pharma types gleefully hoping to force their mandatory vaccines on everyone.

“There is a known mechanism by which lack of vitamin D also promotes autoimmune disease. Vitamin D suppresses autoimmunity. ”

Which has exactly what to do with COVID-19?It’s not an autoimmune condition. And, there’s no evidence that anyone contracting it is vitiamin D deficient.

Yes there is and yes there update 97 on medcram … non-political. Just breaks down the latest studies.

Yes there is and yes there update 97 on medcram … non-political. Just breaks down the latest studies.

Um, Scott, no. I mean, first of all, you were too fucking lazy to even provide a link to what you’re talking about, as though “medcram” were some sort of commonplace reference.

Second, I for one almost never waste time with attempted argument by Y—be.* It’s on you to summarize or, better, transcribe these 13.5 compelling minutes.

*Yes, I’ll post links, but I can’t remember the last time one was intended as anything but harmless diversion.

it is two distinct diseases: a viral like syndrome and an increasingly severe immune dysfunction

Second verse, same as the first.


“The cytokine storm is to an autoimmune reaction (such as rheumatoid arthritis) what a CAT5 hurricae is to a thunderstorm.”

Could you elaborate on this, Pathcoin? I think the analogy is perhaps backwards in a way. A thunderstorm can contain a tornado which, locally, can be much more destructive than a CAT5 hurricae.

@ Rann:

For sure.
In fact, on another thread, I noted that searching the net for anti-Fauci sentiment yielded results involving Trump’s inner circle and conservative television host, Tucker Carlson. Amongst those I survey, Gary Null and Del Bigtree found Dr Fauci to be both incompetent ( as if they could judge what PH or SBM demands) and corrupt; right here at RI, his detractors include anti-vax scoffers and a general nay-sayer.

AS I noted below, ( Yann, CNN) several US state have contained the virus following
advice remarkably similar to Fauci’s. In fact, yesterday or Tuesday, he said that the US could manage the virus in 4-8 weeks through the use of masks and social distancing without shutting down everything. I think that a few places may take him seriously but NOT ALL. Actually, many of the states that are affected most now were
quite cavalier about re-opening or not closing down to begin with ( AZ, TX, FL,ID, OK). Unfortunately, politics seems to be a factor with redder states being more likely to fall into a less SB mode and the aforesaid successful states being rather anti-Trump.

Strange, Pathcoin……

The US is ~8.3 times bigger in population but has over 32 times the number of diagnosed cases. In fact, it’s gotten so bad in the States that you have diagnosed, for the last 2 weeks, more cases EVERY 2 DAYS than Canada has had during the entire pandemic!

Today alone, the States had new cases totalling 81% of Canada’s all-time total.

Canada has received about the same information as USA was given by Dr. Fauci throughout the pandemic. In fact, his advice was featured every day The difference is all of Canada treated it like an actual emergency and followed the advice of Dr. Fauci and out medical officers of health. We are now slowly reopening and watching for any potential hot spots……all the while with no spike in cases as we are seeing in Florida and other states…. I “wonder” what the difference has been……

Maybe you complainers about Dr. Fauci should acting pompous and know-better-than-the-expert, shut your mouths, listen and follow his advice!!!! It’s working anywhere else in the world that has!!!! Until you star doing it, Canada has NO intention of opening its borders to you riff-raff.

Open up fully and move on with our lives. There is nary a thing that Fauci and / or the CDC have gotten correct to date.

And, no interest in going to Canada anytime soon so you can shut down your smart a** remarks…..LOL

“There is nary a thing that Fauci and / or the CDC have gotten correct to date.”

Prove it. Provide the PubMed indexed studies that would correct their “misinformation.” Make sure it is current data, nothing something that is out of date from April and May.

High mortality was due to the advice by Fauci et al not to use steroids when steroids were clearly indicated.

When was this, Dr. Path—?

“Vitamin D is also correlated with sunshine exposure. Adequate sunshine is also necessary for optimal immune response; including activation of cytotoxic T cells.”

First, then why are COVID infection and death rates so high in the Sunshine belt?

Second: I’m going to need a lot of citations for “sunshine” being part of the activation pathway of cytotoxic T cells. Because I’ve done a lot of work with those specific T cells and, no, they do not require sunshine, UV light, or really any light at all.

“To put it baldly, if it’s a topic and area of study you know nothing about and after a bit of cramming you decide that basically everyone who’s studied the question is wrong, there’s a very small chance you’ve rapidly come upon a great insight and a very great likelihood you’re ignorant “. politely re-phrasing one Josh Marshall about another self-declared expert.

Smartest thing I’ve read. Yet you will get blasted because other scientists don’t take the time to read the latest studies on vitamin D or decadron. People are lazy. And FYI I’m not even anti-Fauci on this. We just didn’t know what we didn’t know.

Vitamin D has been hyped for a lot of things not related to bone health and turned out to be ineffective for most if not all of them. Chasing a chimera diverts resources away from other, potentially more fruitful areas.

@ Julian Frost

“Vitamin D has been hyped for a lot of things not related to bone health.”

Ah… my childhood… that bone fetish…

So, there’s “no evidence” that mask and social distancing help slow the spread of the disease so we sholdn’t bother. But, there’s no evicedne that hydroxychloroquine works but we should us that.

And, as a surgeon, you think she’d have a better understanding of the real life implications of wearing a mask.

MEG You’ve got it right. There is “no evidence” that mask wearing and social distancing help slow the spread of the disease. There IS evidence that the mask has zero effect on COVID-1984. All that anyone who doubts this FACT needs to do is buy (or find) a box of masks & READ the statement printed clearly on the box. For the lazy:

“This product is an ear loop mask, this product is not a respirator and will not provide any protections against COVID-19 (coronavirus) and other viruses or contaminants.”

Numerous annual studies on the N95 respirator mask have shown that even it is not effective against spreading Influenza. Cloth masks, due to improper use (repeated use, sliding up & down neck, touching constantly etc.) have actually contributed to the wearer becoming infected & causing hypoxia!

There is actual evidence that hydroxychloroquine not only works, it has actually CURED the COVID-1984 illness in 90-100% of patients depending on which study you review. Of course you won’t know any of this if you receive your (mis) information from articles like this one or anything on mainstream media news (all funded by big pharma who doesn’t want anything cured & will discredit any cures discovered & suppress from coverage).

Demonic Greedy Jesuit Keebler elves like Dr. Fauci (who should be executed for crimes against humanity) don’t focus on giving sound & genuine medical advice, such as boosting the immune system or taking decades old proven & cheap remedies like HCQ all in favor of an untested & dangerous vaccine that his conflict of interest wife is involved in the testing of & stands to make a pile of cash for them both, even though we have a flu virus, for example & yet we still have the flu. Well we used to, until all flu cases have been reassigned as COVID-1984 In order to boost the already fictitious numbers in desperate attempts to justify this fake plan-demic along with fakestream news outlets focusing on the large numbers of new cases which directly corelates with the increased number of those 80% false positive results so the economy gets destroyed & the one world BS can be further implemented. In a real pandemic such fudging of numbers would never be necessary!

I do know that Dr. Kelly is right on one thing: Two nurses here in New Mexico told me that patients are tested multiple times during their stay in the hospital and every time the test comes back positive that is counted as another case. I am sending a letter to our governor who is basing her orders on this incorrect data. Also I wonder about the PCR test because the creator of that test, created by Dr. Kary Mullis as a manufacturing technique, not a test—Scientists are saying it could not actually test for infection and identify the virus causing the infection. I also hear from scientists speaking out about this — that the virus has not been isolated. Confusing…On the CDC website it states that PCR test is for experimental use only, not for diagnostic purposes.

There is documented evidence of the use of social distancing to control an epidemic at least as far back as the 1660s, The most famous example I know of being Eyam the “plague village” in Derbyshire in the UK, but isolating households with a plague victim by nailng the doors shut and painting a large red cross on the doors was used eg in London in the same period and there were severe penalties for breaking the isolation.

just because Dr. Victory is an ER doc (although she calls herself a “trauma and emergency physician”)

She seems to be in private practice at “Victory Health” in Steamboat Springs, which has no Web presence. (It was also a pain in the ass to verify her license until I found this amusing report.) No hospital affiliations listed by U.S. News, for what that’s worth.

Time to go check the Ohio license.

@ Orac,
“We are months into the pandemic, and communities across the country are suffering needlessly. However, the reason they’re suffering is not because of the “overblown”
response, but rather because our political leadership has been utterly bankrupt at the national level (and at the state level in many states). There is no national strategy (and hasn’t

Here are your political leaders who have been “utterly bankrupt”. If anything; the biggest mistake the political leader I am sure you are referring to made, was to appoint them.

“Today, President Donald J. Trump announced the formation of the President’s Coronavirus Task Force. Members of the Task Force have been meeting on a daily basis since Monday. At today’s meeting, which the President chaired, he charged the Task Force with leading the United States Government response to the novel 2019 coronavirus and with keeping him apprised of developments.

Secretary Alex Azar, Department of Health and Human Services

Robert O’Brien, Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs

Dr. Robert Redfield, Director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

Dr. Anthony Fauci, Director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health

Deputy Secretary Stephen Biegun, Department of State

Ken Cuccinelli, Acting Deputy Secretary, Department of Homeland Security

Joel Szabat, Acting Under Secretary for Policy, Department of Transportation

Matthew Pottinger, Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor

Rob Blair, Assistant to the President and Senior Advisor to the Chief of Staff

Joseph Grogan, Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council

Christopher Liddell, Assistant to the President and Deputy Chief of Staff for Policy Coordination

Derek Kan, Executive Associate Director, Office of Management and Budget”

Why did you leave out the ‘head’ of the task force; Mike (meme man face and pray and electro-shock (disputed but, yea, of course he did) the gay away conversion clinic advocate) Pence??

“I will always view our response to the coronavirus as having been a distinctly American response,” he said.

“Only in America could you have a president who could step up, marshal the private sector, marshal states, call on the American people, the better angels of their nature, and say, ‘We’ve got to ask you to do really, really hard things.’ We’ve got to ask industries to do really tough things. We’ve got to ask states to step up and do things at an exceptional level. But only in America could you do that,” he said.

Ra ra.

“Only in America could you have a president who could step up, marshal the private sector, marshal states, call on the American people, the better angels of their nature, and say, ‘We’ve got to ask you to do really, really hard things.’ We’ve got to ask industries to do really tough things. We’ve got to ask states to step up and do things at an exceptional level. But only in America could you do that,” he said.

That is facepalm level of bulldust. Perhaps Mike Pence should have a look at what people in Australia have been asked to do? We have a second lockdown under way. People are grumbling and a few have been flouting the rules, but most are putting up with it. Not only that, we had a huge public driven donation of food, children’s activities and money for families caught in a hard lockdown of apartment towers.

The US President has spent more time blaming other people for the COVID-19 situation in the US than he has marshaling the private sector, the states, etc. and instead has used Twitter to encourage his supporters to not listen to the experts.

In recent days, the media has taken to sounding the alarm bells over a “second wave” of coronavirus infections. Such panic is overblown. Thanks to the leadership of President Trump… we are winning the fight against the invisible enemy.
The truth is that we’ve made great progress over the past four months, and it’s a testament to the leadership of President Trump. When the president asked me to chair the White House Coronavirus Task Force at the end of February, he directed us to pursue not only a whole-of-government approach but a whole-of-America approach.
But our greatest strength is the resilience of the American people. From the outset of this pandemic, the American people have stepped up and made great personal sacrifices to protect the health and safety of our nation. And it’s because of their embrace of social-distancing guidelines that all 50 states have begun to reopen in a safe and responsible manner.
The media has tried to scare the American people every step of the way, and these grim predictions of a second wave are no different. The truth is, whatever the media says, our whole-of-America approach has been a success. We’ve slowed the spread, we’ve cared for the most vulnerable, we’ve saved lives, and we’ve created a solid foundation for whatever challenges we may face in the future. That’s a cause for celebration, not the media’s fear mongering.

— Mike Pence, vice president of the United States.

Also, thx, ‘whole-of-America’ and ALL of its peoples ‘working together to protect the health and safety of our natiion.’


The relevant list seems to be:
Mark Meadows
Deborah Birx
Joe Grogan
Chris Liddell
Mark Short
Russell T. Vought
Hope Hicks
Kevin A Hassett
Steve Mnuchin

A couple tidbits

If the point was to sustain a monthlong lockdown, the numbers told them, the administration succeeded. If it was to squelch the virus to containable levels, later events would show the officials were oblivious to how widely it was already spreading.


Those outside experts who disagreed were largely brushed off. In mid-April, Dr. Ashish K. Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute, urged a top administration official to embrace his call for conducting 500,000 coronavirus tests a day — far more than was happening at the time.

The official, Adm. Brett P. Giroir, the administration’s testing czar, who had been delivering upbeat descriptions of the nation’s growing testing capacity, eventually conceded to Dr. Jha that his plan seemed to be needed. But he made clear the federal government was not prepared to get there quickly.

“At some point down the road,” is what Dr. Jha said Admiral Giroir told him.

“My take is that Jared Kushner believes that this is not something that the White House should get too involved in,” Dr. Jha recalled. “And then the president believes that it is better left up to the states.”

Their critics notwithstanding, White House officials came to feel that they had in fact accomplished their job: giving governors the tools they needed to deal with remaining outbreaks as infections ebbed.

and TBL.

It was a devastating situation, said Mayor Steve Adler of Austin, who watched as the Covid-19 cases at intensive care units at area hospitals jumped from three in mid-May to 185 by early July. Mr. Adler had a simple plea for the White House.

“When we were trying to get people to wear masks, they would point to the president and say, well, not something that we need to do,” he said.

Mr. Suarez expressed similar frustrations with Mr. Trump’s dismissive approach to mask wearing. “People follow leaders,” he said, before rephrasing his remarks. “People follow the people who are supposed to be leaders.”

Is it just me, or was Birx a bit too comfortable settling into her role as WH soothsayer (although the disinfectant moment was totally r/watchpeopledieinside)?

For scientific affirmation, they turned to Dr. Deborah L. Birx, the sole public health professional in the Meadows group. A highly regarded infectious diseases expert, she was a constant source of upbeat news for the president and his aides, walking the halls with charts emphasizing that outbreaks were gradually easing. The country, she insisted, was likely to resemble Italy, where virus cases declined steadily from frightening heights.

On April 11, she told the coronavirus task force in the Situation Room that the nation was in good shape.

Dr. Birx was more central than publicly known to the judgment inside the West Wing that the virus was on a downward path. Colleagues described her as dedicated to public health and working herself to exhaustion to get the data right, but her model-based assessment nonetheless failed to account for a vital variable: how Mr. Trump’s rush to urge a return to normal would help undercut the social distancing and other measures that were holding down the numbers.

Then there was Dr. Birx, the response coordinator of the coronavirus task force. Unlike Dr. Fauci, who only stopped by the White House to attend meetings, she was given an office near the Situation Room and freely roamed the West Wing, fully embracing her role as a member of the president’s team.

Inside the White House, Dr. Birx was the chief evangelist for the idea that the threat from the virus was fading.

Dr. Fauci, a friend of Dr. Birx’s for 30 years, would describe her as more political than him, a “different species.” More pessimistic by nature, Dr. Fauci privately warned that the virus was going to be difficult to control, often commenting that he was the “skunk at the garden party.”

By contrast, Dr. Birx regularly delivered what the new team was hoping for.

“All metros are stabilizing,” she would tell them, describing the virus as having hit its “peak” around mid-April. The New York area accounted for half of the total cases in the country, she said. The slope was heading in the right direction. “We’re behind the worst of it.” She endorsed the idea that the death counts and hospitalization numbers could be inflated.

“We’ve hit our peak,” she would say, and that message would find its way back to Mr. Trump.

Dr. Birx began using versions of the phrase “putting out the embers,” wording that was later picked up by the press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany, and by Mr. Trump himself.

Idk, perhaps Putin handed Trump some pictures/video of her engaged in some bawdy depravity?

A youtuber I watch pointed out something hilariously depressing. A lot of anti maskers claim that masks can’t prevent the virus from spreading, but also claim that masks trap carbon dioxide. How can a mask trap carbon dioxide and prevent oxygen from entering if it’s so porous it lets a virus, larger than a CO2 or oxygen molecule, escape? I know this isn’t news to anyone who reads this blog who isn’t an anti masker, mind. But if there are doctors who peddle ideas like that, it’s alarming. They have to be using doublethink, right? There’s no way you can graduate from medical school without understanding the relative size of molecules…

Kelly Victory has also claimed that responses to the pandemic are a scheme to elect Democrats.

“Victory helped spread conspiracy theories that coronavirus-related closures are a Democratic plot, coordinated in conjunction with the “deep state” and the press, to defeat President Donald Trump in November. She also alleged an over-reaction to the pandemic is a Democratic plot to steal the 2020 election via mail voting and shared a tweet accusing Democrats of stealing elections that way in 2018.

Victory is a critic of Dr. Anthony Fauci, director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases and the nation’s leading expert on infectious disease. She shared a tweet calling for him to be criminally prosecuted and another calling him an idiot. Fauci has drawn the ire of some on the far right for supporting closures.

On social media, Victory has aligned herself for weeks with ultra-conservatives, such as Ann Coulter, who have spread dubious information about coronavirus. Victory knows Coulter and pleaded no contest to misdemeanor disorderly conduct related to an altercation after an event with Coulter in Colorado in 2012.”

Kelly Victory has also claimed that responses to the pandemic are a scheme to elect Democrats.

Well, she’s consistent. (ISTR that I may have seen some under the ‘Colleen’ name, but it’s hardly interesting at this point.)

She also had a seemingly brief stint as an expert witness.

ok. First let’s get that trailing ‘vocal fry’ out of the way:

An analogy I might make is: Although I’ve never met you, if I ran into you on the street I would have a good idea how to interact. I’d know that you’re a person, not a tree

Larry: And in the snow, I see … a tree!
Writers (applauding): Yes! Yes!
Larry: Wait, wait I haven’t finished yet.
Third Writer: There’s more?
Larry: And by this tree, gentlemen, I see … a dog!
Writers: Olé!
Larry: And gentlemen, this dog goes up to the tree, and he piddles on it.
Writers: Hallelujah!
Sixth Writer: Have we got a movie!
Fifth Writer: He tells it the way it is!
Fourth Writer: It’s where it’s at!
Larry: Well now we’re getting somewhere. No, wait. A new angle! In the snow, instead of the tree, I see Rock Hudson, and instead of the dog I see Doris Day and, gentlemen, Doris Day goes up to Rock Hudson and she kisses him. A love story. Intercourse Italian style. David Hemmings as a hippy Gestapo officer. Frontal nudity. A family picture. A comedy. And then when Doris Day’s kissed Rock Hudson she says something funny like…
Larry: I like that! I like that, I can’t take it any more, and then Rock Hudson says ‘I’m a very rich film producer and I need a lobotomy’ and then Doris Dog says ‘I think you’re very handsome and I’m going to take all my clothes off’ and then Doris Dog turns into a yak and goes to the bathroom on David Lemming. No, wait, wait!

{Video pending. Maybe. Piss off YouRube with your endless scroll of totally irrelevant content suggestions; just as bad as NF now.}

the mask traps viral particles and that “rebreathing” makes it more likely that a mask wearer will become ill.

I once buried a puppy for a friend. As I laid it upon its bed of cedar chips, I thought I saw it move. Upon closer inspection, its throat was completely choked with trying to escape worms (tapeworms, I think. They were kinda big). If only that puppy was allowed to be barefaced and not rebreath all of those, even though he was a biter…. But in not ‘rebreathing’ your own germs then you are doing exactly what the virus wants — giving it the chance to escape an environment that is actively killing it. These people are coronavirus worshipers and a few of them don’t even realize that.

Rather than a movie, that read more like a script for one (or two) of those bloody awful, pretentious perfume/after shave adverts.

by Holly Yan, CNN:
From Worst to First about places that tamed Covid-19 and how they did it
And they did it by NOT listening to Fauci.

I’m JOKING, Sue me.

@ Denice Walter,

The image at the beginning of this post shows a coronavirus with spiked glycoproteins using the color red. The color red is often associated with danger. It is my understanding that glycoproteins do not have a ~700-635 nm wavelength (i.e., red coloring) in the visible spectrum.

Q. Is the CDC using red coloring to induce an emotional response to SARS-CoV-2.

Please advise..

Not bad at all. I’m surprised no one had yet made this modification. Quick search revealed nothing, so you’re the first!

The 2019 measles outbreak in Samoa: 83 deaths out of a population of 200,000. So ~0.04 percent of population of Samoa died from measles.
So far in US COVID-19: 139,000 deaths out of a population of 375,000,000, so (as of now) ~0.04 percent of population of US has died from COVID-19. Its gonna go higher, possibly doubling given how things appear.

Samoa, during its declared state of emergency arrested an anti-vax “holistic” healer Edwin Tamamese for telling Samoans not to vaccinate and for promoting ineffective alternative med treatments instead.

The US governernment (President Trump) declared a national emergency on March 13, 2020 due to COVID-19 outbreaks. It’s too much to hope that someone in authority would arrest these dangerously disinformational COVID-19 physicians during this pandemic/state of emergency, but I’d like to think that somewhere in the 50 states there’s a medical board with a spine that would grok they are fully and completely justified and authorized to sanction physicians such as Kelly Victory. Apparently there is not. As a physician I am ashamed.

Aside from these important points, it always trouble me where the people talking about the suffering from response measures due to the pandemic only talk about deaths from the pandemic, and not the intense suffering it caused in many more. Including those suffering for months. That doesn’t count?

And even with the logic of her – as you point out – highly problematic analogy, no, I don’t think she’d know how to react to a person she met if that person was a con artist that’s really, really good at getting under people’s defenses, hijacking their resources and using them against them.

Not all people are the same, just as not all viruses are, and no, you cannot assume you’ll know how to react in ways that avoid harm even with people. And yes, the biggest people is what Orac pointed out, but the analogy doesn’t even work on its terms.

That was my point as well. Besides, today I heard the news that people who had a relatively mild disease and didn’t need hospital care, are the ones who are longer suffering from other problems, being tired and memory-problems.

I know two people who tested positive in late March/early April. Neither had to be hospitalized at any point. Both were sick over 6 weeks. They are now considered “recovered.” One still gets short of breath with anything more strenuous than getting up to use the bathroom, and the other shows neurological effects similar to post-concussion symptoms.

@ Terrie
You are so right. Don’t let anyone tell Covid-19 is just like the flu and we make to much of a hastle of it. I’ve had the same kind of arguments with someone on a Dutch site. Someone stating, the negative consequences of the social distancing were worse, than the negative consequences of the disease. People who think so, should think again.

A colleague and his wife both got Covid19, just before our French lockdown. Both are in their 50’s. They didn’t have to spent much time in hospital and both survived fine.
But that colleague reported to me how they fell dead tired for the next 6-8 weeks afterward.
Also, his wife had previously some onset of Parkinson, and her state has somewhat worsened.

I saw a thread a few days ago about the costs of a COVID-19 pandemic if the U.S. had done nothing. If I find it, I’ll post the link here. From what I recall, it was terrible.
At a 1% death rate, over 3 million extra deaths. On its own, that would “monkey wrench the economy” (exact phrase). But then it looked at hospitalisations and non death sequelae.
For every one death, 19 hospitalisations would occur. Patients with permanent damage to their hearts and lungs would number in the 10s of millions. The economy would not just be monkey wrenched, it would be nuked.

Dorit: “Aside from these important points, it always trouble me where the people talking about the suffering from response measures due to the pandemic only talk about deaths from the pandemic, and not the intense suffering it caused in many more. Including those suffering for months. That doesn’t count?”

The miserably ill and those with long-term sequelae from infectious diseases have never mattered to antivaxers; why should they matter to Covid-deniers?

It is not just Covid-deniers, but also just people who think the lockdowns and social distancing are worse than the disease, because they are bad for the economy.

The ideas and comments presented here are amazing. Unfortunately, many of us in auto-moderation have our point-of-view delayed based on Orac’s busy work schedule; extending cancer patients lives, through surgery, and writing medical research grants.

@ Orac’s minions.

Here’s a suggestion, in an effort to reinforce “auto-moderated opinions matter” please ask Orac to re-evaluate his priorities ASAP.

My only comment; if you are going to try to shoot down someone else and their perspective, learn to spell. Otherwise, you immediately lose credibility.

Sure thing. Just because I don’t catch every typo cranking out thousands of words of text every week means I must not know what I’m talking about. 😂🙄🤦‍♂️

Any time someone says that herd immunity is the best way to handle this, they should (should but won’t) be forced to state it as “killing two million plus Americans is the best way to handle this”. And, of course, condemning millions more to suffering and often lingering after effects.

What frustrates me – I often feel like banging my head on the wall when reading through Facebook – is the Covid-19 deniers angle. You either die or you recover 100%. No in between. Unfortunately, life is never so black and white. I have yet to see anyone of them mention the potential effects of Covid-19 after you recover. Millions of people that will have permanent heart and lung damage, strokes, or neurological issues. And what then, with millions of people permanently scarred, how will healthcare systems and economies be? It is unfortunate.

Another really dumb thing Dr Victory says “prohibited from worshiping”.
No. This is false. Nothing in the universe is prohibiting anyone from worshiping in their mind and in their heart.

The only thing that is being (lightly) restricted is engaging in large-group in-person services. There’s nothing stopping you from going to church online. There’s nothing stopping you from praying over the phone or over the fence.

Always got to be claiming persecution.

@ JustaTech

Nothing in the universe is prohibiting anyone from worshiping in their mind and in their heart.

Well, some religious currents ask for some very flashy and public acts of devotions. Generally on the evangelical/orthodox side of the spectrum.
So apparently worshipping in their mind doesn’t count. So much for the all-seeing ceiling cat.
My catechism is a bit dusty. Isn’t there a passage in the New testament on the topic of public pretend-worshipping, involving Pharisees?

Less flippantly, worshiping en masse is a strong part of what makes religion a social tool for community building.
But as you point out, nowadays there are other social tools than physical attendance. If the Canterburry vicar can deliver his sermon via a video taken in the cathedral’s garden, with only the local cat as his witness, people can do their worship keeping their distance, too.

And again ‘they’ try another way to scare people away from testing.

Nothing like a hearty laugh after spending a full hour at the Target trying to find light bulbs and Post-Its (too large, mind you).

I’m not talking about like that but like the smokeless ashtrays. That is, the stuff stuck to the outside would be blown back out and the stuff on the inside would be blown back in.

I once made a joke ‘smokeless ashtray’ in my ’69 Thunderbird that sure cleared the air (god knows where it went, all over every surface, I guess) — It was an old tv flyback through a more modern tripler/rectifier that pushed the open load voltage to around 70 kV.

The joke was that if you actually laid your cig into it then it magically vanished.

The same setup with the more modern integrated flyback was used with a fan, wide plastic tube, and dome of stainless steel as an emitter — I could stick coins on the wall and they would hold with that thing 20 feet away. (all my vintage memory chips no longer work).

Another possible win: If one turns the current up a bit then there can be active cooling from ionic winds blowing off. Of course, you should be very careful not to touch your face in that mode and there may need to be modulation upon inhale/exhale so that it limits the uptake of ozone. tweeting Musk…

Wakefield has also made an appearance:
“Speaking in the measured, authoritative tones of an expert, Andrew Wakefield delivered his considered judgment on the coronavirus pandemic.

It was, said the disgraced British former doctor, one big hoax: a cynical plot by pharmaceutical giants — aided by governments, scientists and the media — to force the world to be unnecessarily and dangerously vaccinated.”

Fortunately they included a big fat warning about anything Wakefield says.

“These are terrifyingly gullible times — the perfect environment for Wakefield, who is still shamelessly preaching the same dangerous anti-vaccine message a decade after it was discredited by British medical authorities.”

I always wonder why a “Proportional Response” always seems to converge to “Do Nothing”?

While I understand the argument that naive or ignorant intervention may cause more harm. Dr. Victory and her ilk also oppose any precautionary and protective measures, designed to mitigate and reduce risks. Even with little or no understanding of the disease itself, it is not difficult to conclude that its a good idea to defend ourselves from a potentially fatal contagion we know close to nothing about it. In principle alone this last fact invites even greater caution. Not less.

Also, if they really are interested in “Personal Freedom” and “Individual Liberty”, the thought of the medical surveillance apparatus required for a “Proportional Response” ought to be terrifying!

If Liberty and Care for the well being of others is of such great value, then surely these minor inconveniences are but a meager sacrifice. But alas…

If there is a plague of anything its one of Ignorance, Selfishness, and Hypocrisy.

Two points for all of you arrogant medical professionals who cannot seem to get past the “public health” component to see any other parts of this global elephant.

First, as part of the medical cartel that currently has the entire world forcibly under your command: your messaging stinks. The “science” and advice you’ve dispensed has been contradictory, confusing, and inconsistent from Day 1. Your initial death models were way off. You change your minds constantly on issues of critical importance, such as the effectiveness of masks outside the clinical setting, and whether asymptomatic spread is actually “very rare” (WHO) or “common.” (others, next day). You have given us ZERO reason to trust any of you. Moreover, the fact that you resort to labeling (“anti-vaxxer”), censoring, and character-assassinating any medical professional who dares to offer an alternative view to the contradictory, fear-mongering ones offered by those who hold us captive, rather than engage in thoughtful discussion, shows how little you care about getting to truth. Beda Stadler, John Ioannidis, Scott Atlas, Michael Levitt have all offered reasoned alternative opinions on the science of CV-19 — and the public health measures they believe would better address the health aspects, while not completely destroying our world. Are they all “quacks” too?
Second –while you might (or might not) know how to treat cancer and write blogs excoriating fellow medical professionals just trying to bring some measure of calm and common sense to this crisis, you have very little understanding of who actually rules the world (hint: it is not a benevolent medical cartel). Your support for a technocratic surveillance state, CoVi-passes, mandatory injections of a rushed, DNA-altering vaccine, and the “jailing” of those medical professionals who disagree with you (as one of your readers advocates in the comments! Is this America? Do we not have a First Amendment?) will bring in a totalitarian, dystopian regime we have not seen since WWII – or maybe ever. Perhaps you should keep in mind, as we march towards this dystopia, that the civil liberties you demand we relinquish now in the name of “public health” will not likely be returned, and that tyrants ultimately execute the professional classes too, once they have served their purpose.

“the medical cartel that currently has the entire world forcibly under your command”

How much of the “entire world” can you experience from a basement apartment? (I look out the window.) Nope, no goose stepping doctors in this part of the “entire world”.


blockquote> Is this America? Do we not have a First Amendment?) will bring in a totalitarian, dystopian regime we have not seen since WWII – or maybe ever.

Checks Drudge…Yep, Nero Really wants that second term. “I da lau n ordar presnident, Ib I not presnident den dey come for da sunurbs nextr. The beautiful suburbs. Yu butyfal houses with the beautiful lawns and burn it all to the ground…”

Perhaps you should keep in mind, as we march towards this dystopia, that the civil liberties you demand we relinquish now in the name of “public health” will not likely be returned, and that tyrants ultimately execute the professional classes too, once they have served their purpose.

I won’t argue with that. Checks DMV, Facebook, Google, Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Rekognition, Nest and ClearView police, ICE, and DEA clients, FoxNews,…, the asshole at the vitamin shoppe trying to sign me up for a discount card, the phone company, the cable company, carpet cleaning guys, the USA Patriot Crapct, the NSA, Permanent Record,…,TicTok. — Real ‘muricuns do not give a fuck.

“and that tyrants ultimately execute the professional classes too”

Good. I hate Orkin and SimpleGreen.

as part of the medical cartel that currently has the entire world forcibly under your command: your messaging stinks.

Part of the reasons the messaging stink was precisely because the ones in charge are not a “medical cartel”.
In the US, and in various European countries, the politics have been fighting their health advisors and delayed taking preventative measures.

As for the masks, it’s basic CYA. Our countries were low in stock, because stocks cost money (and again, this is against the repeated advice of “the medical cartel” – physicians and scientists have been warning about the risk of a major viral pandemic since at least the 90’s).
So instead of being honest and saying “sorry, not enough for everyone, let’s ration them”, our so-wise authorities went for “oh, you don’t need them anyway”.

Hyperbole does not make for compelling arguments. Especially if you lead with an assertion (“the medical cartel…”) for which you provide no evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your entire posting is a stream of unfounded, hyperbolic nonsense. You’re utterly, ridiculously unserious.

You’re wasting your time talking to these “experts.” It’s crazy how detached from reality they are, and detached from the facts as well. I hope all you “experts” will be first in line to take the vaccines that will soon be coming. In fact, be the human guinea pigs that take it. Please. Please be the first to inject it! You’ll be doing the rest of the world a huge favor 🙂

She is a total joke and backed by the millionaires in this country who are filing bankruptcy and losing their asses because of COVID-19. She doesn’t care if people die! Because she isn’t in the Hospital working with Covid 19 patients. She has 15 years of experience compared to many of our physicians that have way more experience and who are on the front lines. This virus is 6 months old! We don’t know enough about it yet!

In other news …

Mistrust of a Coronavirus Vaccine Could Impact Widespread Immunity by Jan Hoffman, NYT, yesterday

She outlines how misinformation from anti-vaxxers ( compleat with photo of California protestors holding signs well known to us) and how PH is trying to deal with that likely scenario. Don’t call them “anti-vaxxers”: it gets them mad as they spread fear and uncertainty and why it especially affects Black people who already have doubts about governmental interventions and health ( understandable given their history) ** And whose communities are more likely to suffer because of the virus.

Orac’s minions are well acquainted with how anti-vaxxers use the internet ( blogs, boards, videos, comments, social media) to frighten nervous, vulnerable parents about vaccines by telling tales of imagined damage that vaccines inflict which frankly contradict all that research WORLDWIDE enlightens us about them.

Picture if you will an entrenched partisan who spends her day writing incessantly to scare others. rather than advocating for people with autism, volunteering at the local animal shelter or donating clothes and food to worthy charities.. They imagine themselves as saviours of children when they are indeed misinforming parents which could feasibly result in harm
to children or adults who are unvaccinated or immune compromised. They may “Hide in the Herd” but because of their activities to enlarge their numbers, they actually may contribute to changing the equation so that herd immunity can’t be reached at all. This has occurred in pockets of vaccine doubt already.

Beside fear mongering mothers we also have business people who benefit from vaccine doubt because they sell books, films, supplements, diet plans or natural remedies, enriching themselves at the expense of children. These opportunists are working full steam ahead to prepare followers to reject a Covid vaccine.. .

** well known to me because I worked with multicultural clients during the hiv/aids epidemic. Despite being preternaturally white.

There is potentially something else which “could impact widespread immunity”.

I’m starting to think of a world where we all walk around with trained T-cell (inhalable?) poppers or maybe even cyber like an insulin pump or the like.

That sets the stage for the most surprising result of the study. Participants who had never been exposed to either SARS virus also had some T-cells that recognized pieces of SARS-CoV-2 proteins. This wasn’t true for every participant in the unexposed group; only about half of them had these reactive T-cells. But again, it was mostly based on cells that reacted to pieces of protein that were identical between SARS-CoV-2 and viruses that cause the common cold.

Mostly, but not all. There were two exceptions to this—two fragments of protein that didn’t look like the cold virus but provoked a response from T-cells of unexposed participants—and the researchers struggle to explain them. Their only suggestion is that some other pathogen happens at random to have a small section of protein that looks like this. There were also differences among the groups regarding which of the three proteins their T-cells recognize, but the significance of these differences are not clear.

@ Denice Walter

“why it especially affects Black people who already have doubts about governmental interventions and health ( understandable given their history) **”

Could you be more explicit about that specific point? This is something I genuinely know little about and on which I’d appreciate being more knowledgeable.

(BTW, if someone knows how to reach Joel and ask him to come back, I’d be grateful.)

@ F:

Obviously you know that Black people were treated horribly since they were brought against their will to serve as slaves BUT
their worst “memories” are related to medical experimentation that left their illnesses untreated to document their progression ( most infamously, syphilis Tuskegee Institute experiments), included forced sterilisation and other inhumanities.over the years- including by mental hospitals, schools for disabled- as well as institutional racism that leads to neglect and lack of appropriate, modern services. IN general, their health status is, on the average, worse because of other factors like average lower income, living in substandard housing, less access to healthy lifestyles, education and many, many other issues.( See Wikipedia on Tuskegee experiments and Institutional Racism).

Because of this history, some Black people even believed that hiv was engineered to harm them It wasn’t but they were affected worse than whites.

In the era of Covid, Black people are more likely to live in cities, work in service sector jobs, live in more crowded homes and in poverty as well as having more health risks ( like diabetes, high BP, overweight etc) so they get Covid more frequently and die more.( Similarly, Hispanics do worse that whites).

So, of course many are suspicious of SBM.

I also miss Joel. I know he wrote for other blogs so someone may know him well enough to contact him PLEASE.

@ Tim

I was not interested in historical facts, but thanks for the pointers anyway. (Damn paywall for the Washington Post, but never mind…).

I was more interested in contemporary gut feeling of black people when it comes to healthcare. How suspicious are they, in a nutshell. The “how” does not refer to intensity of suspicion, but modalities of suspicion. That’s what I was interested in when I asked my question to Denice Walter.

But thank you anyway for your answer.

Ahh. Modalities. {Comment tree is probably wrong because I’ve got cooldowns on the machine browsers. I can see people have made comments but can’t read them…have to click through the various links at the top to even see them. fucking CF}

“nitric oxide deficiencies” Things that make you go hmmm.

@ F:

Orac has discussed how Black people are especially vulnerable when he looked at how anti-vaxxers court Black communities – like Wakefield/ BIgtree with the VAXXED film ( misrepresenting the Thompson study as showing that Black kids are negatively affected by MMR) and Kennedy in Harlem trying to sway Black leaders so that they could rally their supporters .against vaccines

My own monitoring reveals that woo-meisters target Black people not to trust SBM because of the reality of Tuskegee and slavery and fables about hiv ( PRN) usually this is accompanied by rants involving true details about racial inequalities.

Opportunists know who are prime targets for their BS- protective mothers or disadvantaged minorities.. .

“Picture if you will an entrenched partisan who spends her day writing incessantly to scare others.”

Wow, when did Rod Serling start posting here?

Actually, I was originally going for more of a Prince vibe but didn’t think that readers would get it immediately.

John Oliver tackled conspiracy theories on his latest show ( Sunday) including a focus on Mikovits , “the Mid-Western Diane Keaton” in his parlance. Last Week Tonight video – easy to find. Several celebrities try to enlighten viewers to varying results.

I wonder if Orac’s scathing remarks and SB wisdom have little effect on scoffers, could a shirtless, over-muscled dude succeed?


oppsie: sb “don’t want to get a rise from dough”.

Ahh, I did it again. Sorry, what is wrong with me??

Can we please have an end to these stupid videos!? We got along well around here for years with just the occasional one.
If I want shit from youtube I can find it for myself. What I do like to find are new comments by people and they get bounced around and bounced around and bounced around until all of the damned videos have been run down and opened.

If I want shit from youtube I can find it for myself.

If it is germane to the subject, then Imma thinking that you can not. It requires a learning curve, these days. Far greater than a global warming alarmist can muster. YouRube has really let me down. But I intend to ‘shut up a little’ so as not to trigger you further.

{does this count as three in a row… Shit. I’m the bad guy.}

Aaand. Billie Ellish parody I’m the Vlad guy is no longer searchable. No vid for you; I hope you are happy. (also, YR is dead to me now.)

I’m not “triggered” by your skull turds, I’m just sick of having to wade through the shit you dump to get to comments made by intelligent people with something useful fo contribute.
Did I say FUCK YOU!
Well, just in case I forgot, FUCK YOU!

I accept. But it will be live streamed and there will be safe words like “sea level rise, daddy, sea level rise”.

@ doug

“I’m not “triggered” by your skull turds, I’m just sick of having to wade through the shit you dump to get to comments made by intelligent people with something useful fo contribute.”

He did say that he’d tone down. If you have any better way to make it clear that making efforts to be civilized by taking criticism into account is a worthless idea, please let me know.

Tim should have known better than trying to be accommodating: he should have said “OK, I tone down”, so that he could not stand accused of not being sensible, and simultaneously should have told you to grow a thicker skin. As things stand, he moderately backed down; and it backfired on him… The proof of which is in the pudding.

Now he’ll know it’s a mistake to try to be accommodating.

BTW, I’m likely the one that has been abusing YouTube videos in the first place. Did try to make some points with them at times, though. I therefore also decide to limit my use of them, to take your wishes into account. Not because I try to be accommodating; but because being lavishly civilized to the point of servility and on the brink of hypocrisy is my sovereign decision, and one that can be revoked on a whim at any point in time. Modulo our host’s policy and wishes on the matter, who evidently has the final say.


I’ve now tested this with no yourube video thumbnails and it still does the “bounced around and bounced around and bounced around”

You need to block the gravatar scripting — the user thumnails even if null — such as with Umatrix and that seems to help

also, {never mind, Imma going to take the high road here (not really)} I thought we had a dinner date to fuck or something — you were very adamant about it; to the point of being a creeper??

Hey, one of those was an addendum! But I know what doug is talking about with the loading of the thumbnails — that can be fixed by adding the t=(anything) to the end of the link. I’ll try to keep that in mind. Also, on long comment threads, Orac may bypass the plugin that generates the images.

I’ve been trying to goad Pathcoin/..(1) to address this. He was on about that pathway months ago. It seems to be a compentent orator, but,alas, clinically retarded or, at least, it is demonstating a kind of dementia.

Why should I believed you over her? Quite honestly, I believe that everything she claims makes complete and total sense. If it turns out that she was right and you were wrong, will you come on here and apologize for your comments? Will you contact her directly to apologize? I doubt you will do either.

Of course he won’t. Orac is hiding because about what he says because he doesn’t want any responsibility when calling these people out. It’s the I hidden in my parents basement, but I’m still an invisible badass on the keyboard.

His identity is the worst kept secret on teh interwebs. Knowing it is an intelligence test, and it seems you failed.

Right. And if you tell me that you’re 8 feet tall and she’s 2 feet tall, should I believe that too? If you know so much, how come you’re not invited onto shows to speak and you’re limited to this blog that is something you set up and pay for all on your own. Who sponsors you? What’s your CV? My opinion is you’re probably just another doctor with a God complex. she’s not right and I’m not wrong, what an arrogant statement. She’s not right and I’m not wrong, what an arrogant statement. Excuse me while I gag now.

Have you read the detailed rebuttal of her specific claims in the post? Are there any errors you see?
If not, you should believe Orac because his post is accurate and referenced, and shows that Dr. Victory’s claims are inaccurate.

Content matters.

Your guess is. Not surprising that you were just making guesses. Of course I read the whole damn thing. But because I don’t buy into your theories, you guess I didn’t read it. Maybe you should start coming up with reality and facts instead of just guessing. It is not lost on me that you failed to provide your CV. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them, some just stink more than others. It’s getting rather smelly in here so I think I’m going to leave. Y’all can stay here and enjoy your own stench.

I think we got the impression you did not read from the fact that you pointed to no errors and provided no substantive criticism. You gave no reason for rejecting his reasoned analysis.

@ Ben

“Of course I read the whole damn thing. But because I don’t buy into your theories, you guess I didn’t read it.”

Well, you made no comment regarding the content of this blog. Now, you may well not “buy into” theories, but we have no clue what your opinion really is on the matter. And no clue what the main points you may have against the post’s content. So, OK, you’re not happy, but we have no statements from you that would allow us to engage in a discussion with you…

“Maybe you should start coming up with reality and facts instead of just guessing.”

Oh! He did! Didn’t you notice?

“It is not lost on me that you failed to provide your CV.”

You may want to start here. Orac is under no obligation to Waste Time With Wankers who are unable to make a basic web search to answer such a trivial question…

“Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them, some just stink more than others. It’s getting rather smelly in here so I think I’m going to leave. Y’all can stay here and enjoy your own stench.”

Bitchy, aren’t you?

So the fact that you are an oncologist/surgeon automatically means that whatever you say medically is correct and any other Dr with a different opinion is wrong. Your rebuttal to Dr Victory sounded like it came from a typical surgeon with a god complex. Have you treated any covid patients?

@ Caro

“Your rebuttal to Dr Victory sounded like it came from a typical surgeon with a god complex.”

And I always thought God had a Surgeon Complex… Sheesh!…

“Have you treated any covid patients?”

Did you ever teach English in school? No? Flabbergasting that you do manage to line up words…

@ Caro:

Dear One, Orac is not automatically correct because he is an oncologist/ surgeon BUT because he provides peer reviewed, controlled, science-based studies that illustrate what he says, Every article explains why he supports what he does and usually links to research or previous explanations which include links to studies.

IN fact, you don’t have to be a doctor/ surgeon/ professor to be correct IF you can provide
DATA: research studies that were done correctly: anyone can BUT.

Here’s the problem- although it is NOT insurmountable:
most adults, unless they are educated and trained in medical or other research, don’t know when something is done wrong ; modern life science is incredibly technical and statistical methods/ research design are not something you pick up by watching a few You Tube videos.
There is also consensus amongst experts ( which is not always cut and dry but developing)..You can’t achieve this depth by flitting around the internet reading brave mavericks; A single study, poorly done, can’t be used to disqualify the bulk of research.
( see Wakefield)

Alt med “experts” and anti-vaccine activists like to pretend that anyone can be a critic of
medicine, psychology or general science: this is merely to support their own shaky positions, to create a cadre of the like-minded. They simplify physiological systems and then posit a cause and a cure, based on their own insufficient knowledge. You can gauge how much they understand by their models’ complexity
–: some believe that cancer is caused purely by a bad diet- a lack of anti-oxidants or other nutrients yet science based models will present ( often graphically) a convoluted pathway of multiple biological actions- including the influence of genes- that may lead to cancer ( there are very complex images shown on this very blog)
— similarly, anti-vaxxers posit that vaccines given at age one-two cause autism HOWEVER physiological and developmental research shows how genetic influences interact with prenatal/ perinatal events leading to events in the brain that are called autism. There are multiple lines of research that show how this happens and how it can be detected before that age and which researchers lead the way BUT anti-vax proselytisers LEAVE ALL OF THEM OUT. They are inconvenient for their belief system .In addition, long-term studies involving huge numbers of subjects show no link to autism, done in many different countries.

So anyone can learn SB scepticism but it takes study and guidance usually from people who have studied the field in depth and learning about how consensus comes about. You can’t choose which parts of research you like and ignore others. Also having a degree or several doesn’t insulate you from criticism as many alt med doctors and researchers have shown. It’s about the data not the person. . .

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