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Hydroxychloroquine: The Black Knight of treatments for COVID-19

Truly, hydroxychloroquine is the Black Knight of treatments for COVID-19. “America’s Frontline Doctors” demonstrated this for me conclusively.

Truly, hydroxychloroquine is the Black Knight of drugs to treat COVID-19. Monty Python fans will immediately know what I’m talking about, but for those who aren’t familiar with the hilarious scene to which I refer, the Black Knight is a fictional character from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. In the film, King Arthur encounters him guarding a rather pathetic bridge and asks him to join his quest to seek the Holy Grail. The Black Knight refuses and then blocks Arthur’s passage with a menacing, “None shall pass.” The battle is joined, and Arthur, one by one, chops off all of the Black Knight’s limbs in a truly warped comedy sequence. After losing each limb, the Black Knight says things like, “‘Tis but a scratch” and “I’ve had worse.” Before his last leg is chopped off, the Black Knight proclaims (while hopping around), “I’m invincible,” to which Arthur retorts, “You’re a loony.” After losing his last limb, the Black Knight finally concedes, “All right, we’ll call it a draw.” Then, as Arthur crosses the bridge and rides off, the Black Knight yells, “Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what’s coming to ya! I’ll bite your legs off!”

The reason the sketch is so funny and has become such a classic since the movie was released during 1970s, to the point that almost everyone recognizes it just by reference to the Black Knight, is, of course, due to the extreme disconnect between the Black Knight’s overconfidence and his rapidly declining limb count. (The bleeding from each limb stump is also so obviously fake and absurd that it contributes to the ridiculousness of the entire scene.) If you apply the sketch to the situation with respect to hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for COVID-19, you can quickly see where I’m going with this. Initially (on the surface at least), like the Black Knight versus Arthur, hydroxychloroquine looked fairly formidable as a potential treatment for COVID-19 based on anecdotal evidence. It wasn’t long, however, before the drip-drip-drip of negative studies soon rendered hydroxychloroquine a stump of a treatment, one limb at a time. Examples included the publication of a randomized controlled clinical trial of the drug as post-exposure prophylaxis that was entirely negative. This was followed by two more, first, a Spanish post-exposure prophylaxis trial that was also negative. Then there was the Recovery Trial from the UK. Most recently, last week the New England Journal of Medicine published a clinical trial of 667 patients with mild-to-moderate COVID-19 randomized to receive placebo or hydroxychloroquine (with and without azithromycin, yet!), with the primary outcome being clinical status at 15 days. It was completely negative. Two weeks ago yet another randomized controlled trial of hydroxychloroquine was published in Clinical Infectious Diseases. It was a Spanish trial of 293 non-hospitalized patients with mild COVID-19. Guess what? It was negative. No benefit was observed with hydroxychloroquine beyond the usual care. None of this stopped a Yale epidemiologist named Harvey Risch from publishing a risibly, embarrassingly inept defense of the evidence base for hydroxychloroquine, which I interpreted as the Black Knight losing his last leg.

So last week, the Black Knight was reduced to a stump. This week, we hit the part of the scene in which, as Arthur pretend-gallops off using coconuts to simulate the sound of horses’ hooves, the Black Knight is yelling, “Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what’s coming to ya! I’ll bite your legs off!” Yes, the frenzied promotion of hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19 has gotten just that ridiculous, with the release on Monday of a video produced by the right wing conspiracy outlet Breitbart featuring a group of doctors portentously calling themselves “America’s Frontline Doctors” that was viewed 17 million times on Facebook in just eight hours, retweeted by President Trump and his allies. It rapidly went viral:

A dangerous video spreading misinformation about a cure and treatment for COVID-19 circulated on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube yesterday.

Created by the media outlet Breitbart, the video depicts a group of experts who claim to be “America’s Frontline Doctors” at a press conference outside the U.S. Supreme Court in Washington. They say that Americans are captured by fear of the novel coronavirus— but there’s no need to be scared because hydroxychloroquine treats and prevents COVID-19. The video was seen by millions of people before it was pulled by all three channels for violating their misinformation policies, BBC reports.

Taking a starring role in this rogue’s gallery of quacks was a Houston doctor and religious minister named Dr. Stella Immanuel:

A Houston doctor who praises hydroxychloroquine and says that face masks aren’t necessary to stop transmission of the highly contagious coronavirus has become a star on the right-wing internet, garnering tens of millions of views on Facebook on Monday alone. Donald Trump Jr. declared the video of Stella Immanuel a “must watch,” while Donald Trump himself retweeted the video.

Before Trump and his supporters embrace Immanuel’s medical expertise, though, they should consider other medical claims Immanuel has made—including those about alien DNA and the physical effects of having sex with witches and demons in your dreams.

Immanuel, a pediatrician and a religious minister, has a history of making bizarre claims about medical topics and other issues. She has often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches.

She alleges alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments, and that scientists are cooking up a vaccine to prevent people from being religious. And, despite appearing in Washington, D.C. to lobby Congress on Monday, she has said that the government is run in part not by humans but by “reptilians” and other aliens.

See what I mean? Truly, the Black Knight Hydroxychloroquine is raging against King Arthur (science). Don’t believe me? Just take a look at Dr. Immanuel’s Twitter feed. First up, last week:

Here’s a hint: 250 patients are not a lot of patients to study for a disease whose overall infection fatality rate is likely less than 1%, particularly if there is no control group to compare the treated patients to. Seriously, this is such basic stuff that I learned it in my first year of medical school. How is it that Dr. Immanuel either did not or forgot?

Here she is, describing hydroxychloroquine as the “cure”:>

https://twitter.com/stella_immanuel/status/1288182154543980545

Next up, she’s complaining about being ridiculed:

https://twitter.com/stella_immanuel/status/1288149788534493184

Here’s a hint: Dr. Immanuel is being ridiculed and discredited because she and her fellow “Frontline Doctors” are ridiculous.

My favorite, though, is Dr. Immanuel challenging people to do urine tests to “prove” that they’re not taking hydroxychloroquine:

Because those of us who have concluded, based on existing evidence and the accumulation of negative randomized controlled trials, that hydroxychloroquine almost certainly doesn’t work against COVID-19 are secretly taking the drug to prevent disease.

Curious, I wandered over to the America’s Frontline Doctor’s website, only to discover that it has been taken down, with the hosting service presenting a message of “Website Expired.” I kicked myself, because I had checked out the website earlier yesterday, with the intent of writing about it. The almighty Wayback Machine has some of it still available, but the formatting, for some reason, is screwed up. The video, called “White Coat Summit,” can still be found at the Tea Party Patriots website. It’s 43 minutes long (if you can stand it), and it’s chock full of misinformation, pseudoscience, and disinformation about hydroxychloroquine of the sort I’ve been writing about since March. I debated whether to slog through the whole thing and do a blow-by-blow, but, given that there’s really nothing much new here, I decided to hit the “high points” (if you can call them that). But, first, who are “America’s Frontline Doctors”?

We’ve already met Dr. Stella Immanuel and learned of her belief in the reptilian conspiracy theory, that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches. You might have seen the hashtag #DemonSperm trending on Twitter. She’s the reason.

Next up is Dr. James Todaro, an ophthalmologist. Interestingly, we’ve met him before on this blog in the context of the SurgiSphere debacle. The interesting thing about Dr. Todaro is that, while he was correct about how bad the SurgiSphere study was, he’s wrong about just about everything else having to do with hydroxychloroquine, as he is a hydroxychloroquine cultist. Let’s just put it this way. He’s buddies with Didier Raoult, the “brave maverick doctor” ande bully who initially published a truly awful, incompetently done (and perhaps even downright fraudulent) study claiming that hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin clear coronavirus in 100% of cases. (The numbers were single digit.) Dr. Todaro also found his way onto my radar for publishing a credulous, pro-hydroxychloroquine article entitled An Effective Treatment for Coronavirus. He’s also a managing partner in a cryptocurrency company, which is always a red flag for grift, in my book.

It turns out that it was probably Dr. Todaro who was responsible for sparking President Trump’s obsession with hydroxychloroquine in the first place, something I didn’t know:

On March 13, cryptocurrency investor James Todaro and New York City lawyer Gregory Rigano tweeted out a link to a paper they’d put on the file-sharing service. In it, the men described a drug they’d been following, chloroquine, that in early trials in China and France appeared to show promise as a COVID-19 treatment. Long used as a treatment for malaria, the drug is cheap and plentiful and available to combat the pandemic immediately. Not only has it been deemed “effective in treating COVID-19,” they wrote, but it “also has strong potential as a prophylactic (preventative) measure against coronavirus.” The pandemic, they suggested, could be snuffed out in one stroke—if the authorities would just take action. The paper ended with a call for readers to disseminate it and translate it into other languages.

At a time when public anxiety about the pandemic was snowballing, the paper offered a rare ray of hope. As its authors had urged, the paper was quickly disseminated over the internet. On March 16, Elon Musk tweeted a link to the Google Doc, writing: “Maybe worth considering chloroquine for C19.” On March 18, right-wing websites Breitbart and The Blaze picked up the story. On March 19, Rigano went on Fox News and told Tucker Carlson that a chloroquine study had shown “a 100% cure rate against coronavirus.”

From there it was a short leap to the biggest bullhorn of all. That same day Donald Trump declared at a press conference that chloroquine was a possible “game changer” and that the FDA had approved it. “We’re going to be able to make that drug available almost immediately,” he promised.

If this is true, Dr. Todaro is responsible for the one of the two most harmful bits of propaganda and disinformation about COVID-19 spreading around the US (the other being that masks and social distancing don’t work to slow the spread of coronavirus).

As for the rest, Jenny Beth Martin is not a doctor, but she is co-founder of an anti-tax group called the Tea Party Patriots Foundation and claims:

Martin, among other things, dislikes Dr. Anthony Fauci’s skepticism of hydroxychloroquine and insists that he could change his opinion if he only met with this group of right-wing health workers.

“My message to Dr. Anthony Fauci is to have a meeting with these frontline doctors who are seeing real patients,” Martin said on Tuesday. “They’re touching human skin, they’re looking people in the eye, they’re diagnosing them, and they’re helping them beat the virus.”

No, Ms. Martin. Science will persuade Dr. Fauci (and those of us of a science-based bent), not a bunch of quacks touting their “anecdotal experience” coupled with conspiracy theories.

Next up, Dr. Simone Gold:

Dr. Simone Gold is a doctor and lawyer in Los Angeles who publicly takes credit as the founder of “America’s Frontline Doctors,” a group whose website was set up 12 days ago, and amusingly appears to be down right now.

Gold has been a regular on the right-wing media circuit during the pandemic, appearing on Fox News on May 21, arguing that patients are being harmed by the shutdowns taking place across the country.

She also revealed the reason why the group’s website is down:

She’s also pulling the favorite disinformation technique beloved of cranks and quacks everywhere, the “open debate” gambit:

She’s also arguing that hydroxychloroquine should be available over-the-counter, which, given its risk of serious arrhythmias is utterly bonkers:

Sadly, she has access to power:

Apparently, Dr. Simone is a lawyer and a board-certified emergency medicine physician. This leads me to ask: What is it with all these ER docs who, during the COVID-19 pandemic, suddenly think they are epidemiologists, infectious disease experts, and can science better than the true experts? Other examples have included Dr. Kelly Victory, who’s been claiming that masks don’t work, and Drs. Dan Erickson and Artin Massihi, owners of a chain of urgent care centers in Bakersfield, CA who made a splash in April promoting bad epidemiology designed to minimize the severity of the pandemic.

Speaking of Dr. Dan Erickson–surprise! surprise!—he’s one of “America’s Frontline Doctors” too. So is a doctor named Dr. Robert Hamilton, who appears to be the least bizarre of the group. He’s a pediatrician in Santa Monica and hasn’t shown up on right wing media much since 2015. He’s the founder of a Pacific Ocean Pediatrics.

The main themes of the video were simple. The first was very much an appeal to authority. Like the much larger Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, the far right wing John Birch-like group disguised as a medical society, “America’s Frontline Doctors” are playing on their authority as physicians to peddle a distinctly political agenda not based in science. (Unsurprisingly, AAPS also claims that masks don’t work.) Indeed, Dr. Gold starts out by laying it on really thick about how they are “experts” and “frontline doctors.” My response to that is that, while emergency medicine doctors and primary care doctors are certainly “frontline doctors,” that doesn’t give them any expertise in epidemiology, public health, or infectious disease. It doesn’t necessarily even give them any insight into how well specific treatments for a disease work (or don’t work), given that personal clinical experience can be misleading and, especially in the case of ER docs, many don’t even have longterm followup of their patients beyond an ER visit that might or might not lead to an admission. Basically, this group is playing on the average American’s lack of understanding of what their actual expertise really is.

Dr. Hamilton shows up next to tout the known information that children tend to be much less likely to get COVID-19 and to be less severely affected by the disease when they do get it. I do note, however, that it’s not as though coronavirus is completely safe for children. You and I have seen the reports of children dying from the disease and of the mysterious, Kawaski-like syndrome that, although rare, is not so rare that we haven’t seen it. Basically, Dr. Hamilton dismisses the reasonable concerns about whether opening schools again as baseless, all based on cherry picked science. You can also tell where he’s coming from, at least politically, because he includes a gratuitous swipe at teachers’ unions at the end of his segment for being (quite understandably, from my point of view) concerned that too many school districts are rushing to reopen without good plans to prevent outbreaks.

The most bonkers segment is up next, and, as you might guess, it’s Dr. Stella Immanuel. Her entire schtick is that she’s “personally treated 350 patients” with COVID-19 and that none of them have died. She’s also used zinc and azithromycin. As I said, this is all well and good, but that is actually a small number and, without a control group, is meaningless. She even goes on to claim:

This virus has a cure. It is called hydroxychloroquine, zinc, and Zithromax. I know you people want to talk about a mask. Hello? You don’t need a mask. There is a cure.

She even emphasizes that “nobody needs to get sick,” that “you don’t need masks” because there’s a cure, and that the schools should be opened because—you guessed it—there is a cure.

But what about all those negative studies that I’ve been discussing? Dr. Immanuel dismisses them as “fake science” by “fake pharma companies.” Her entire argument, boiled down to its essence, is that facemasks and social distancing are unnecessary because hydroxychloroquine prevents and cures COVID-19. Again, face masks work, and existing evidence is trending strongly in the direction of the conclusion that hydroxychloroquine doesn’t work against COVID-19. But to Dr. Immanuel, her single-physician anecdotal stories trump well-designed randomized clinical trials.

I think this bit from her says it all:

And let me tell you something. All you fake doctors out there that tell me, “Oh, yeah, I want a double-blinded studies.” I want to tell you, stop sounding like a computer, double-blinded, double blinded. I don’t know what are you, are your chips malfunctioning? But I’m a real doctor. We have radiologists. We have plastic surgeons. We have neurosurgeons like Sanjay Gupta saying, ‘Oh, yeah, it doesn’t work and it can harm in heart disease.’ Dr. Sanjay Gupta, hear me. Have you seen a COVID patient? Have you ever treated anyone with hydroxychloroquine who had heart disease? When you do, come and talk to me, because I sit down in my clinic every day and see these patients walk in every day scared to death. I see people driving two and three hours to my clinic because some ER doctor is scared of the Texas Board and won’t prescribe medication.

You hear that, all you pointy-headed docs who insist on—oh, you know—actual scientific evidence that a drug works, you’re mindless computers. Dr. Immanuel is the real doctor who knows what’s what! No, wait. It’s worse than that. Dr. Immanuel thinks you’re like the “good Germans, the good Nazis” who “watched Jews get killed” and didn’t speak up. Indeed, the martyr complex is strong in Dr. Immanuel. She rants about how she doesn’t care if “they” kill her because she’s “not going to let Americans die.” Indeed, the paranoia is strong in this one.

At this point, I really couldn’t take it much any more. I also learned of this video of another talk by Dr. Immanuel that really tells you how seriously you should take her:

I did skim through the rest of the “America’s Frontline Doctors” video, enough to know that it’s utter and complete nonsense. It makes me wonder. Dr. Immanuel was clearly the star of the show in this video. Given that the rest of the “America’s Frontline Doctors” apparently had no problem being part of the show should tell you all that you need to know about them. All of the key points promoted in this video are either false or misleading, but you’d think that the other doctors would be reluctant to put their reputations on the line by appearing alongside a doctor like Dr. Immanuel, who is so obviously a crank’s crank. You’d be wrong, apparently.

There are far too many quacks, cranks, and grifters in my profession. This video from “America’s Frontline Doctors” tells me that we’ve reached the point in the hydroxychloroquine story where the limbless Black Knight rails futilely against reality.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

303 replies on “Hydroxychloroquine: The Black Knight of treatments for COVID-19”

@Dorit – Is there something you need to talk about?!! In my family, on my mothers side, we seem to have a tendency to get cysts – clear evidence of an alien encounter a couple of generations ago.

Why does it matter whether one is right wing or left wing? Science should be an objective analysis based on facts. An objective analysis requires an experiment structured to test whether a hypothesis is true or false. The hypothesis concerning HCQ based regimens is that HCQ will disrupt the progression of the disease as it interferes with the binding mechanism to both the AEC2 receptor and sialic acid coating of cells; in so doing , it impairs entry of the virus into the cells. The mechanism is quite well understood. Not so well established is whether pharmacologic levels of HCQ can raise the pH of the endoplasmic reticulum high enough to interfere with viral replication. But clearly, once the virus is in the cell and replicating HCQ is unlikely to be as effective as when it can block the entry of the virus into the cell.

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blockquote>The hypothesis concerning HCQ based regimens is that HCQ will disrupt the progression of the disease as it interferes with the binding mechanism to both the AEC2 [sic] receptor and sialic acid coating of cells; in so doing , it impairs entry of the virus into the cells. The mechanism is quite well understood.

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blockquote>

It seems that “the known mechanism of how HCQ should work” has been given a promotion, or something.

Hey, Bolsonaro didn’t die (🥴). I hear tell that HCQ has replaced the ‘Body of Christ’ cracker in certain Brazilian church’s communion ritual — Those also feature a big mural of Jair instead of Hesus.

Logically, the best we can proffer at this point is to ask Pathcoin1, “what are you going to do? Bleed on me?”

Mikey ( Natural News) is right on the story:
Big Tech commits MEDICAL TREASON by Censoring …

I’ll have to listen to see if PRN gets behind these brave maverick doctors. They tend to support anything that Fauci doesn’t.

Also, GIve ’em Hella, Dr Stella AoA

Can’t you tell from the totally excellent word smithing by the managing editor?

It seems Dr Immanuel may have exaggerated her previous experience with hydroxychloroquine

Stella (age 55) is wrong about her own experience in Nigeria.
…Perhaps she misspoke?

The main quinolone used in Africa (west, east, central and southern) for uncomplicated malaria was Chloroquine. Although hydroxychloroquine was licensed for malaria, it was seldom used for that purpose.
Another factor is that in the 1980s chloroquine-resistant strains of malaria finally reached West Africa.
This meant that malaria was no longer responsive to the quinolones, and alternative drugs needed to be used, completely displacing chloroquine (and HCQ) from the therapeutic armoury.
Stella would have been in her late teens then, ie not even at medical school. Her bio says she graduated in 1990.
If she prescribed hydroxy/chloroquine for her falciparum patients in the 1990s, she was criminally negligent and likely responsible for a number of deaths (without treatment there is a 30% mortality).

from http://disq.us/p/2aulxz3 Oops.

There are far too many quacks, cranks, and grifters in my profession.

Trying to counter them feels like playing a hybride black-night/hydra/whack-a-mole game.

2020: What a sh**show.

Geez, just depress me further why dontcha…it’s bad enough there were two loon pediatricians in that group. I’m trying hard not to ponder the looming pertussis, measles and meningitis outbreaks we’ll be seeing in 1-2 years, esp in infants and children. I fear COVID-19 has done more to strengthen anti-vaccine leanings in the US, and parents will also be lulled by the fact that their un/undervaccinated kids haven’t become sick during this (which is mostly due to them not being in school/travelling).

There’s nothing like the sh**show in the NHS. Assorted medical scam merchants exist outside it but they are not generally medical doctors. “Doctor” of homeopathy, naturopathy etc but with rare exceptions they are not medical doctors. From this side of the pond it looks as if the medical profession in the USA is viewed as a means of making a fortune as much as a vocation. Such a perspective would in general be viewed as anathema in the UK.

I think it’s another symptom of the CF that is the American healthcare system. There’s no need for Alt-med quacks if all your healthcare is free and easy to access. We still have people who are happy to pay out of pocket for treatments but it’s a hard sell compared to the US where seeing a naturopath or homeopath may be cheaper and less hassle than trying to navigate the medical billing system.

I would love to agree with @Mongrel, because our lack of access is such a real issue, but a quick look at Germany and France – other countries with comprehensive healthcare – would show that magic thinking can certainly come in there, too. I think access is relevant, but it’s not the main thing.

Among other things, many of the people who go alt-med in the U.S. are well-off and do have good insurance.

Three Pills for Doctors in their clinical retreat,
Seven for Scientists in their halls of ivory,
Nine for Politicians doomed to election defeat,
One for Dr. Immanuel for her HCQ deviltry
In the Land of YouTube where the Truthers bleat.
One Pill to rule them all, One Pill to find them,
One Pill to bring them all and in the Truthiness bind them,
In the Land of YouTube where the Truthers bleat.

There was a twitter account for Trump Gollum- which sounded exactly as you imagine it
Let me see if it’s still there.

“the Black Knight, is, of course, due to the extreme disconnect between the Black Knight’s overconfidence and his rapidly decreasing limb count”

“we’ve reached the point in the hydroxychloroquine story where the limbless Black Knight rails futilely against reality.”

👍👍

quest added ‘Tis Just A Scratch
https://youtu.be/CwRttpeyv6o?t=1

Suddenly the right is all over an…..IMMIGRANT! Who would think? Proper Nigerian doctors must be mortified.

Reptile people conspiracies are generally repackaged antisemitism, so that probably helped them accept her as one of their own.

@ Terrie

“Reptile people conspiracies are generally repackaged antisemitism”

I’m still having trouble wrapping up my head around these reptile conspiracy theories. In all honesty, I have trouble believing anyone could believe in them. And as much as David Icke has this Rothschild fetish and recycles the jewish meta-conspiracy to the ludicrous extent of accusing jews of selling Zyklon B to the nazis, his theories are soooo bonkers that I feel anything, Jews included, could fit into them.

Are reptile conspiracies merely coded speech for antisemitism? Are there any true believers, besides Icke, in reptile conspiracies? I mean: is Alice Walker for real????

@F, Well, Icke will swear up and down that he literally means reptile people and he’s odd enough he actually might. But I have zero doubt that a good number of his followers are going “Reptile people. Right. wink” and are just plain old antisemitic. So I guess it depends on if you think Icke defines the state of reptile people conspiracies, or if it’s about looking at all the believers of those conspiracies.

According to Wikipedia, conspiracy theory scholar Michael Barkun asserts that the whole reptilian conspiracy thing originated with a fantasy short story called “The Shadow Kingdom” published in 1929, which also marked the debut of Kull the Conqueror, the forerunner of Conan the Barbarian (i.e. same author…). I always figured Icke just took the i983 miniseries V as a spilling-the-beans docudrama. Never having been into Conan or Kull, I can’t comment on any antisemitism in the originals or their more contemporary adaptations in comics or motion pictures. I found a review of Barkun’s book that includes an account of his overview of the history of CT, and some form of antisemitism seems to be one of the standard elements of some meta-mythos that also includes Christian dispensationalism (i.e. the Rapture and whatnot), but in proper Levi-Straussian fashion, any common element of the standard vocabulary may be present or absent in any given specific inflection of the whole enchilada.

I found the text of “The Shadow Kingdom” in an archive online, in case anyone wants to investigate further:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:Search/The_Shadow_Kingdom

From a “shit hole country” none-the-less. But, “She agrees with me”…

He is dangerously easy to play (you just have to play up to his ego). There was audio leaked last year of him at a dinner in Ukrain. After playing around with VLC audio settings like compression, frequency dim/enhance, timings and what not, These two dudes (Fruman and Parnas) were discussing in Russian what I interpreted to be “watch this”. Then after rejoining Trump at the dinner table, they flattered him with a tale that the letters in his name added up (with mystic numerology) to “chosen one”. They grabbed his ear for the next long little while.

I was like, meh; thought so.

” 2020: What a sh** show”

Agreed.
I’ve spent more time at home and thus, more time reading trash on the net and watching news. Crap abounds.
People are distressed, worried and scared. From what I’ve observed, savvy operators ( in politics, woo, anti-vax) are taking advantage of the vulnerability of masses of people who don’t know what to expect next, may be unemployed and have health concerns, by providing them with readymade ( unrealistic) answers and “counselling” to deal with life. All terrible, of course.
What do I mean?
— anti-vaxxers are poisoning attitudes against a Covid vaccine – which doesn’t even exist yet!- with tales of Pharma criminality and children “destroyed” ( killed, made autistic) by vaccines . Whilst hospital and medical services may be compromised later this year because of Covid, they frighten parents away from vaccines for VPDs.
— woo-meisters provide “helpful hints” to prevent or treat Covid while simultaneously disparaging whatever SBM advises. They sell magic formulae to strengthen immunity. And advise listeners about where to live and how to invest
— political opportunists get in on the act as well when they subvert SBM by supporting BS “medical” advice.
We see all of the above here at RI, up close and personal.

During the last financial crisis (’08-’09), similarly, woo-meisters became financial advisors, offering similarly unsound advice that didn’t pan out ( “Stocks will never recover! Sell! Get out of banks! Buy land!).
Sceptics can instruct the general public about who does this and how they get an audience that follows their lead.
“Things are Bad. The world is against you. Experts, institutions, universities and the government- the Elites– are your enemy. Listen to ME!” AS they rake in the cash.
.

If they were really concerned about our financial interest they’d recommend that we go all in with Pharma stocks so that we can claim that filthy lucre for ourselves. Why don’t they invest in Pharma? It certainly can’t be about scruples since they have none.

@ rs:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they DID invest. Who would know? Or get a mutual fund that is heavily weighted that way.
I won’t invest on my own because my mutual funds will do it for me, buying what they label a good bet.

As an example of woo dishonesty/ manoeuvring:
while Mikey is openly for Trump. Null claims to despise him** BUT tells his thralls to only support THIRD PARTY candidates because both major parties are corrupt and impure OR they should stay home in protest- which would help Trump
So this way, he doesn’t offend his liberal. older NYC audience AND he gets Trump’s low tax rates for millionaires ( he may earn in excess of 10 million USD per year as business sites report).

** although he echoes him on many points

I won’t invest on my own because my mutual funds will do it for me, buying what they label a good bet.

Load, eh?

Occasionally there are signs that the crazy has not completely overrun things. Heckenlively is ticked off that his hero Scott Adams finds him too toxic to interview. 😀

I quit reading Dilbert years ago, but I can’t help but notice that everyone in the Dilbert strip is wearing a mask at work.

I still won’t read it, so I don’t know if it is sarcasm or not. But given how many other comic strips are avoiding the whole conversation, it’s an interesting choice.

@ Narad:

Some Load, some No Load.
My parents had loads ( heh) of life insurance and the company’s rep advised them to convert to mutual funds that had a fee; so every time it earns, it gets re-invested with that BUT it has really earned since 1984.
The other ones are standard no load, large cap, research funds, tech based etc. so it’s a roller coaster whenever there is a downturn, like this last spring but I ride it out. I expect that one of these owns stocks in companies developing Covid vaccines .I’ll have to find out.

LOUIE GOHMERT (R-Texas) gets and “says he might’ve gotten Covid from wearing a mask”.

<

blockquote>“‘[I]f I get it,’ he told CNN in June, ‘you’ll never see me without a mask.’ Reps. Mario Diaz Balart (R-Fla.), Neal Dunn (R-Fla.), Morgan Griffith (R-Va.), Mike Kelly (R-Pa.), Ben McAdams (D-Utah) and Tom Rice (R-S.C.) have tested positive for the virus, along with Sen. Rand Paul [R-Ky].”

<

blockquote>

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook-pm/2020/07/29/why-the-capitol-needs-testing-489917

R -7
D -1
I – 0

Looks like some members of one party are secretly growing their own HCQ. Obviously, this presents ideological conflict for the other side.

Dang… busted blockquote and missed this:

JAKE, THANK YOU for letting our office know Louie tested positive for the Coronavirus. When you write your story, can you include the fact that Louie requires full staff to be in the office, including three interns, so that ‘we could be an example to America on how to open up safely.’ When probing the office, you might want to ask how often were people berated for wearing masks.

Worse still, he lives in his office when he’s in DC, so he’s quarantining inside the Capitol. At least until the other legislators kick him out, which it sounds like they’re trying to do.

I tend to disbelieve the assertion that political leaders are actually giant lizards, but then the existence of Louis Gohmert gives me a moment of pause. . . 😉

Contact tracing: I can’t find a damn clip (probably saw it on CNN of which I can’t get their vids to play for the life of me and YR no longer shows related/relevant vids after perusing a first one — just random shit, endlessly; perhaps I could go through the Cspan channel of the last week but it just irks me.) but it was of Doug Collins (R-GA.) and Louie Gohmert (R-Texas) with chinned masks yacking it up on the house floor with Louie hunched over but slightly elevated above Doug ~1 foot of separation. I think it was recent as he had that same nasty blue bandana.

My bet is that ‘ol Doug Collins is up next, if that is the case.

Oh, Louie Louie
Ohh Ho..
Let’s give it to ’em right now!

Congressman Dan Meuser (R – Pennsylvania)

“I was taken by surprise, as many of us were, by Governor Wolf’s recommendation that Pennsylvania schools delay interscholastic sports until January 1st. Schools across the Commonwealth have invested significant time and effort to develop health and safety protocols to protect student-athletes, while allowing them to compete this fall.

Because of the infection, Meuser said he did not travel to Washington on Saturday to cast his vote on legislation aimed at rolling back changes at the Postal Service
.
.
“I will, however, submit for the record that I would have voted nay,”
.
.
He added that Postmaster General Louis DeJoy has assured the American public that the Postal Service is fully capable of delivering the nation’s election mail on time and that any changes in operations at the agency have been suspended until after Election Day.
.
.
While Meuser was forced to miss the vote on Saturday, he made appearances at several events in recent days in his district before testing positive.

He stopped by Berks County on Wednesday to attend a groundbreaking ceremony for a distribution center at Berks Park 78 in Bethel Township where he was joined by state Sen. David Argall, Berks County commissioners Chairman Christian Y. Leinbach as well as several members of the business community.

https://www.readingeagle.com/news/local/congressman-dan-meuser-tests-positive-for-the-coronavirus/article_4a245760-e4b3-11ea-8948-23e25d38b448.html

R – 9
D – 2
I — 0

This ‘roll call’ has earlier ‘disclosed’ entries…

“Díaz-Balart (R – Florida) has a “D” rating from NORML for his voting history regarding cannabis-related causes.”
~~

“McAdams (D – Utah) is being challenged by Republican Burgess Owens, a former NFL player and frequent contributor on Fox News.
.
.
He has emphasized his efforts to work with Republicans, and has said on multiple occasions that he believes that it is important to work together to solve problems.”
~~

R -10
D -02
I — 00

I added him, but got the count wrong, thx. I ran out of fingers and toes are ‘problematic’.

Good luck with your migraine.. If it is light sensitive, then don’t let any commercials play because they all flash.. and sound like trash.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2020/07/29/hydroxychloroquine-the-black-knight-of-treatments-for-covid-19/#comment-433035

Annd, I’ve lost the thread to respond to to keep it a contiguous count. It’s kinda a sad hobby anyways.

R -10
D – 03 (or 04??)* **
I — 00

*any currently curated good list out there?

**Mario Diaz Balart (R-Fla.) was a double count (and the first known get) so, yeah, 3.

There’s no man more deserving of getting a disease because he didn’t believe the overwhelming waves of evidence and data than Louie Gohmert.

There’s no man more deserving of getting a disease because he didn’t believe the overwhelming waves of evidence and data than Louie Gohmert.

Could you sketch an actual totem pole to memorialize this utterance? Colored pencils would be sweet. Perhaps some sort of semantic phylogeny might sprout.

Better than sitting around for decades crabbing about whether P = NP.

I dunno, Herman Cain was doing more than his part to shout down – in both words and actions – the scientific consensus on SARS-CoV2. I’d say he’s in the running (yes, a posthumous award now).

The interesting thing about Dr. Todaro is that, while he was correct about how bad the SurgiSphere study was, he’s wrong about just about everything else having to do with hydroxychloroquine, as he is a hydroxychloroquine cultist.

A perfect example of a stopped clock being right twice a day.

“Sadly, she has access to power”

Two members of a dubious organization spreading unproven coronavirus information said they met with Vice President Mike Pence, the head of the White House Coronavirus Task Force.

Dr. Simone Gold and Dr. James Todaro said on Twitter that they met with Pence to discuss doctors’ abilities to prescribe hydroxychloroquine. Pence’s schedule for July 28 shows that he had a planned 5:30 p.m. meeting with physicians to discuss COVID-19. It’s unclear if the meeting listed happened or if it was with the two doctors who said they met with him. Pence’s staff did not respond to Business Insider’s request for comment.

“We have just met with Vice President Mike Pence to request the administration’s assistance in empowering doctors to prescribe hydroxychloroquine without political obstruction,” Gold said in a tweet. [ https://twitter.com/drsimonegold/status/1288261549103226880?s=20 ]

https://www.businessinsider.com/doctors-viral-coronavirus-misinformation-video-say-they-met-with-pence-2020-7

I do wish there were some way to write Musk out of this twisted timeline — but, to be fair, he has been a major dick RUD about coronavirus from day one.

Well, Doritos, the study I mentioned stated an interesting sentence in the body of the study, a sentence that never made it to the Abstract.

I am quoting this from memory….

” If the mother has two copies of MTHFR genes C667T or A1298C and is taking high amounts of Folic Acid, the child will always be born with Autism.”

If that does not show that Autism and Folic Acid is directly linked, I’ll eat my PDR.

Extrapolations of the stresses of chemicals and toxic metals from vaccines further damaging the more fortunate kids who are not Autistic from birth, is quite consistent with impairment of the methylation detox system, due to the C667T and A1298C genes, being tipped into Autism from toxic vaccine components.

I’ll stick with science, you can keep your blogs and commercial magazine articles.

” If the mother has two copies of MTHFR genes C667T or A1298C and is taking high amounts of Folic Acid, the child will always be born with Autism.”

Ah ha. No, I don’t think so.

Couple of recent meta-analyses suggest that C677T, but not A1298C, is associated with increased risk of ASD in Caucasions.

But folate supplementation? It seems to be protective, but more so for those with C677T mutation.

There is nothing like a bit of science for blowing bad ideas out of the water.

Also it is Dorit, Not Doritos. The latter is a term used by some of the more rabid anti-vaxxers to abuse Dorit.

@Chris Preston

First, the quote from the study was TWO COPIES of C677T or A1298C, both gene mutations of the MTHFR gene grouping.

The result was having two low functioning gene variants in MTHFR, plus taking high doses during pregnancy, resulted in the child being found to have Autism in every single woman with this condition who was enrolled in the study.

I am still looking on PubMed to retrieve the link, it was a number of years ago that I read the Open Access study. And that line was not in the Abstract, it was buried in the body of the study. If you did not read the entire study, you would never know about that result.

Mega-studies are chosen using Abstracts, one one who did not read every single word of the study would not know about this startling result.

Folate supplementation can be protective, IF it is methylfolate and not folic acid, and not more than 400mcg.

The federal government was recommending 1,000mcg or more of folic acid in 1991.

In Medicine the dose can make the poison, too much can be detrimental to the health of the mother and the fetus.

As for Doritos , my ancient “smart”phone changed Dorit to Doritos, it was not me. I wrote Dorit, no insult was intended.

And I am not an anti-vaxxer, I lobby for toxin-free one-time vaccinations, like the Small Pox and original Polio vaccines were, and which I had as a child. And the right of people to refuse vaccinations, if that is what they want.

“methylfolate and not folic acid, and not more than 400mcg.”

Levomefolic acid (INN) (also known as L-5-MTHF, L-methylfolate and L-5-methyltetrahydrofolate and (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolate, and (6S)-5-MTHF)

‘Folic acid’, as used to contaminate foodstuffs, does have that upper limit; It also inhibits the absorption of ‘real’ folate and does not readily clear from the body. Also, it is the methyl form that is prescribed to pregnant women for the most part and places now.

There is no upper limit for ‘folate’.

INB4 Justatech notes that the women may not know they are pregnant. —

Pharma could stop being so litigious over patents and make it an inexpensive supplement recommended for a period of time after getting it on. Stop mandating poisoning everyone’s grain-based foods.

Kawasaki’s disease. Oh, they vaccinated children during Covid.

Y’know, this is pretty crappy even for your usual routine:

You linked your name to your Gravomitar.
You just ran with some sort of internal-speech version of “mysterious, Kawaski-like syndrome”
The lone complete sentence has no discernible semantic payload.

^ I presume I got my point across, but this playing Hide the Sausage with numbered lists is (wait for it, think luge)

Pretty
Freaking
Obscure

if it just appears out of nowhere and starts eating perfectly innocent CDATA.

Because why bother with science and carefully designed studies to understand what’s actually happening, when you can just make shit up on the internet.

Exactly.
Making up shit on the internet lets them vent but has consequences because readers believe it and make bad decisions.
I can list a few websites, twitter accounts and public facebook pages where distraught mothers like Kim, Katie and Christine histrionically narrate their tales of vaccine injury to naive women who then fear vaccines for their children.( see @ Kim Rossi1111, AoA, TMR,, Vaccine Injury Stories Facebook, VAXXED stories etc).

Years ago, people made up shit about hiv/aids without “carefully designed studies” endangering others in a similar fashion.- Denialism. not the first time I’ve seen it.

@Denice, This one is especially blatant. To go from “some children with COVID develop a systemic inflammatory syndrome” to “Vaccines!” is one hell of a leap, unless you’re working from the assumption that it’s always vaccines. I look forward to the claims that vaccines were why so many people died in the 1918-1919 flu pandemic.

Here is a new (7/1/2020) study from the University of Michigan, https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Highlights:
According to a protocol-based treatment algorithm, among hospitalized patients, use of hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with a significant reduction in-hospital mortality compared to not receiving hydroxychloroquine.

Of 2,541 patients, with a median total hospitalization time of 6 days (IQR: 4–10 days), median age was 64 years (IQR:53–76 years), 51% male, 56% African American, with median time to follow-up of 28.5 days (IQR:3–53). Overall in-hospital mortality was 18.1% (95% CI:16.6%–19.7%); by treatment: hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin, 157/783 (20.1% [95% CI: 17.3%–23.0%]), hydroxychloroquine alone, 162/1202 (13.5% [95% CI: 11.6%–15.5%]), azithromycin alone, 33/147 (22.4% [95% CI: 16.0%–30.1%]), and neither drug, 108/409 (26.4% [95% CI: 22.2%–31.0%]). Primary cause of mortality was respiratory failure (88%); no patient had documented torsades de pointes. From Cox regression modeling, predictors of mortality were age>65 years (HR:2.6 [95% CI:1.9–3.3]), white race (HR:1.7 [95% CI:1.4–2.1]), CKD (HR:1.7 [95%CI:1.4–2.1]), reduced O2 saturation level on admission (HR:1.5 [95%CI:1.1–2.1]), and ventilator use during admission (HR: 2.2 [95%CI:1.4–3.3]). Hydroxychloroquine provided a 66% hazard ratio reduction, and hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin 71% compared to neither treatment (p < 0.001).

Rich, I’m not going to bother much with your comment aside from noting that your skills at the delicate task of successfully deploying “cut and paste” are about at par with your competitor “richard pattiso.”

I saw a comment yesterday that in future, 2020 will be used as shorthand for terrible.
“How was work today, dear?”
“It was a complete and utter 2020.”
“I’ll get you some wine.”

She tells Americans not to wear masks, but in a video detailing treatment protocols for Covid-19 in-patients and out-patients at her Houston clinic, she is fully clothed in PPE. The irony hurts my poor head.

It’s also strange she cites a 2005 study (which she claims was sponsored by the NIH, although it wasn’t) whose findings suggest that chloroquine (not hydroxychloroquine) is a zinc ionophore and uses it to extrapolate that HCQ plus Zithromax plus Zinc would be effective for Covid-19 treatment. But she ignores the fact that an actual NIH-sponsored clinical trial failed to find any benefit for HCQ in Covid-19 patients. Does she have multiple personalities?

I am a big fan of Fauci and many other dedicated doctors and scientists, but to Stella they are fake. That’s totally irresponsible coming from someone who has done absolutely nothing to further the development of medicine through good scientific research. I remember when Fauci took care of an Ebola patient in 2015 for many days despite his busy schedule and she has the guts to claim he is among the “fake doctors”. She is a loon no doubt.

I am Nigerian, and it’s a big embarrassment to us that she was trained over here. I hope this incident does not affect the reputation of other US-based Nigerian doctors.

Nice article Dr Gorski (or not-so-respectful orac 😂).Your blog is a true gem.

For every second spent watching that video, you lose a hundred neurons. Don’t ask me to prove it, I just know. If you disagree with me, you are a fake human. Hehehhehehe

How is it possible to be a frontline Doctor AND a lawyer. I would have assumed both those jobs ran to long, intense hours. The idea that you can keep on form in both fields…..

Here is some hard data that doesn’t agree with the consensus of this website, recently published, with N=2,541: Treatment with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and combination in patients hospitalized with COVID-19
Samia Arshad
Paul Kilgore
Zohra S. Chaudhry
William O’Neill
Marcus Zervos
Henry Ford COVID-19 Task Force 1

Published by International Journal of Infectious Diseases VOLUME 97, P396-403, AUGUST 01, 2020

Highlights

As of May 27, 2020 there are over 1,678,843 confirmed cases of COVID-19 claiming more than 100,000 lives in the Unites States. Currently there is no known effective therapy or vaccine.

According to a protocol-based treatment algorithm, among hospitalized patients, use of hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with a significant reduction in-hospital mortality compared to not receiving hydroxychloroquine.

Findings of this observational study provide crucial data on experience with hydroxychloroquine therapy, providing necessary interim guidance for COVID-19 therapeutic practice.

Results
Of 2,541 patients, with a median total hospitalization time of 6 days (IQR: 4–10 days), median age was 64 years (IQR:53–76 years), 51% male, 56% African American, with median time to follow-up of 28.5 days (IQR:3–53). Overall in-hospital mortality was 18.1% (95% CI:16.6%–19.7%); by treatment: hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin, 157/783 (20.1% [95% CI: 17.3%–23.0%]), hydroxychloroquine alone, 162/1202 (13.5% [95% CI: 11.6%–15.5%]), azithromycin alone, 33/147 (22.4% [95% CI: 16.0%–30.1%]), and neither drug, 108/409 (26.4% [95% CI: 22.2%–31.0%]). Primary cause of mortality was respiratory failure (88%); no patient had documented torsades de pointes. From Cox regression modeling, predictors of mortality were age>65 years (HR:2.6 [95% CI:1.9–3.3]), white race (HR:1.7 [95% CI:1.4–2.1]), CKD (HR:1.7 [95%CI:1.4–2.1]), reduced O2 saturation level on admission (HR:1.5 [95%CI:1.1–2.1]), and ventilator use during admission (HR: 2.2 [95%CI:1.4–3.3]). Hydroxychloroquine provided a 66% hazard ratio reduction, and hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin 71% compared to neither treatment (p < 0.001).

Conclusions and relevance
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.

In related news…

Del Bigtree is de-platformed by You Tube for his Covid BS. ( Natural News)
Madonna jumps on board with the sane woo.

And Annie Lennox told her off but good.

I could use some Sweet Dreams to take me away from this Material (World) for a bit.

“Drs. Dan Erickson and Artin Massihi, owners of a chain of urgent care centers in Bakersfield, CA who made a splash in April promoting bad epidemiology designed to minimize the severity of the pandemic.”

Currently, Bakersfield and Kern County (pop 900K) are spiking and second only to little Amador County (pop 39K) in terms of COVID19 doubling rate. Kern is also one of the most politically conservative counties in an otherwise blue state. Coincidence? https://lat.ms/3e1nLDa

The red areas are where the Loyal Lemmings live, of course they follow their leader in not wearing masks, and in thinking this is the flu.

Notice how every flu season the hospitals are completely overwhelmed with flu patients dying and more dying to get into the hospital and onto ventilators?

Not.

@Julian Frost

Anyone who works in medicine knows the flu is not a reportable disease and that the CDC makes up a number.

Here is the CDC webpage that explains the process…….

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/faq.htm

The rest I refuse to go finding links for, go do it yourself since you are clueless as to the facts. It might expand your medical knowledge.

We who work in Medicine get the message every damn year that once again the flu version going around is not the one the vaccine was made for.

Give a citation for the fact you say this is false, have fun being disappointed.

The flu has a paltry 0.01% deathrate most years, some years it has been estimated at 0.2%, but it usually is under 0.1 %.

Just ask Orac.

@Aelxa Hill:

The rest I refuse to go finding links for, go do it yourself since you are clueless as to the facts.

You make the claim, you stump up the evidence. That’s how it works around here.

@ Julian Frost

“You make the claim, you stump up the evidence. That’s how it works around here.”

Yeah… well… I’d also wish it would apply to medical doctors writing bullshit in medical records. Seems they do not have to “stump up evidence”. Their word is the evidence…

I’m sick of this argument.

Though, in the case of Aelxa Hill, it is a perfectly valid one.

Anyone who works in medicine knows the flu is not a reportable disease

As your own link notes, pediatric influenza mortality is in fact reportable.

And you forgot to capitalize ‘medicine’.

@Narad

I am talking about making all Flu Deaths a reportable Disease, not the small Sub-group of Children whom the CDC keeps better Death Records for in order to get a better Picture of how Children die in the Modern Age.

If They can do it for Children, then They can do it for Adults.

Enough Capitals for You now?

You make the claim, you stump up the evidence.

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if there were countries in the world that reported statistics on laboratory-confirmed influenza cases and deaths?

Australia does and 10 years of data is available https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/cda-surveil-ozflu-flucurr.htm

Over the past decade the CFR for influenza has ranged from 0.06% to 0.32% with an average 0.22%.

When I go to the CDC website I find the estimates of CFR are not that different (Range from 0.1% to 0.17%). I wonder why this could be?

Aexla Hill is just another garden variety anti-vaccine liar.

@ Aelxa Hill

“not the small Sub-group of Children whom the CDC keeps better Death Records for in order to get a better Picture of how Children die in the Modern Age.”

What the hell are you talking about? What are these “better Death Records”?

@Chris Preston

The Australian real deathrates and the CC made up deathrates are not that different???????

It is obvious you have NEVER taken Statistics and have no idea that the difference between 0.06% and. 0.1% is humongous.

0.1% is 1 in 1,000 persons and 0.17% is 1 in 1,700 persons

0.06% is 1 in 60,000 persons and 0.32% is 1 in 3,200 people.

And you think those numbers are close? Are you very sure about that?

I took three statistics courses in University, but you should have learned percentages in grade school.

And I am not an anti-vaxxer, I am against weak diluted, toxin-filled crap they push today as vaccines.

The Small Pox and Polio vaccines worked and gave life-long immunity.

The new vaccines are made weak so constant re-vaccination is needed, in order to have a constant repeat business.

We need to return to the older effective method of making vaccines, where one immunization covered you for life.

It is obvious you have NEVER taken Statistics and have no idea that the difference between 0.06% and. 0.1% is humongous.

0.1% is 1 in 1,000 persons and 0.17% is 1 in 1,700 persons

0.06% is 1 in 60,000 persons and 0.32% is 1 in 3,200 people.

Incorrect. 0.1% is 1 in 1,000. All your other calculations are completely wrong. 0.06% is 1 in 1,667 people. 0.32% is 1 in 312 people.

I took three statistics courses in University, but you should have learned percentages in grade school.

Those 3 courses have done you no good at all. You cannot even convert from percentages correctly.

The Australian real deathrates and the CC made up deathrates are not that different????

This is where your mathematical ignorance shows up worst. The CDC estimates (they are not made up, they are based on population level surveillance https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/how-cdc-estimates.htm) are inside the extremes of the Australian values. Australia is a smaller country in population and so its data is likely to have more noise. A quick statistical analysis shows the CFR are not significantly different between the 2 countries, although the noise in the Australian data is a problem.

And I am not an anti-vaxxer

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

So far you have provided the following classic anti-vaccine tropes:

Underplayed the seriousness of diseases for which vaccines are available
Claimed vaccines are “toxin filled”
Claimed vaccines can cause autism
Claimed vaccines contain metals at toxic concentrations
Claimed vaccines are more harmful then the disease they protect against

And on it goes.

@Chris Preston

Yup, my math skills suck, I am not my brother who got a perfect Math SAT score. I keep forgetting that 0.06% meant 0.06 is written as a fraction of 100. I promptly left the math calculations up to the math geeks in the group, my focus was the medical and physical effects during studies. Oh woe is me for not liking math. 🙂

However, when dealing with any population you can not downplay real world reporting of actual numbers versus calculated estimates that are not real.

Gee, if the Australian population is too small to be accurate, we need to throw out all the studies doing tests on less than 25 Million persons then.

And somehow estimates on the American population of 331 Million is more accurate that real reported cases of infection. Wow, how unreal.

The Australian numbers showing wide variation in yearly flu infections, and the difference in numbers between 0.1% and 0.06% are huge when dealing with tens of millions of people. This is to be expected and is seen in graphs as the infections wax and wane due to changesvin the number of previously infected who become immune and additions of newborn and uninfected change over time. The graph goes up and down like huge waves and troughs.

As for vaccines not containing metals that are toxic…….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21568886/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25428645/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29307441/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25699008/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31059838/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26259285/

The original studies on aluminum adjuvants gave the aluminum orally, not by injection, and studies of injected aluminum adjuvants show very low excretion rates.

And let us not take into account the high permeability of the infant’s blood/ brain barrier at all. Oh, no, babies and children are just small adults right? They can tolerate just as much toxin as an adult and their bodies are exactly the same. Not.

In medicine the dose makes the poison, and if you keep injectioning toxins that are not excreted but retained, a catastrophic event over time is to be expected.

A tiny bit of Arsenic will not kill you, but even given over time will. Aluminium is no different than Arsenic, it is a metal the body can jot use for any metabolic process and mucks up the works, just like putting some Aluminium grit in the oil of a car and see what happens.

Neither human body nor automobile can tolerate Aluminum internally, the stuff is toxic.

@ Aelxa Hill

“Oh woe is me for not liking math. 🙂”

If there is one legitimate reason for the death penalty, it would be not liking maths. OK, I may be a bit extreme, there…

“However, when dealing with any population you can not downplay real world reporting of actual numbers versus calculated estimates that are not real.”

What you call “real world reporting of actual numbers” is not real world reporting of actual numbers. The reasons why it doesn’t work in the case of the flu are many, including the fact that the flu is not always detectable when patients get to the hospital and die of complications. So relying on what you call “real world reporting of actual numbers” would indeed be manipulation of the numbers, given the way you’re bound to flaunt them around.

And it is precisely because what you propose is unrealistic that people do massage numbers to get closer to the truth. They may be right, they may be wrong, but they’ll likely be more right than you are, especially if you do not give an argument as to why their massaging should be considered as wrong.

Just waving your hands in the air and blaming maths or computer programmers, as you already did, is unlikely to cut it.

Concerning your antivaxx nonsense, others will likely better refute them than me.

“Gee, if the Australian population is too small to be accurate, we need to throw out all the studies doing tests on less than 25 Million persons then.”

This is dishonest FUD. You can do good statistics on small numbers and awful statistics on big numbers.

“And somehow estimates on the American population of 331 Million is more accurate that real reported cases of infection. Wow, how unreal.”

No. Precisely the opposite. See the above for an explanation.

“The Australian numbers showing wide variation in yearly flu infections, and the difference in numbers between 0.1% and 0.06% are huge when dealing with tens of millions of people. This is to be expected and is seen in graphs as the infections wax and wane due to changesvin the number of previously infected who become immune and additions of newborn and uninfected change over time. The graph goes up and down like huge waves and troughs.”

Reference needed. I am not going to waste time waddling through all your bullshit to get two figures and a graph. Drop the link here, out of basic respect.

Aluminium is no different than Arsenic, it is a metal the body can jot use for any metabolic process

Arsenic is not a metal. I am curious, though, why you have switched spellings of Al midway through.

Heh, regarding arsenic, I just remembered this:

Also took 9mg of Boron a day

Watch out for silicon.

Borosilicates have some very useful properties as well as being the primary biological sorting chambers of several galactic crystaline entities. It is also good at absorbing the excess neutrons from other beings walking around that injest such crap in the first place. It makes a supurb, high strength, corrosion and high temperature resistant ‘litecrete’ that can be used for a wide range of uses ranging from landing pads on ships to band aids.

https://youtu.be/VTM0WOIKDvA?t=1
https://youtu.be/95czIK82l5c?t=66

Borosilicates have some very useful properties

Yes, yes they do. Nonetheless, I went with Zeiss lenses the last time around, which were 40 times as expensive as the exquisite WWI frames* that I had them cut for. Sadly, the left temple gave up the ghost close to its hinge one night when I was looking at Orion and friends while wading at Daytona Beach Shores.

Now I’m getting depressed.

Mamesh. their case had a label inside that warned about having to properly fit them in case of need for a gas mask. I think the basic style is called khaki Windsor.

@Narad

Boron is essential to making new bone cells and the immune system. Most Americans do not get the 3mg of Boron DV daily which they need from their food….

https://www.getroman.com/health-guide/boron-citrate-and-bone-health/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330619/

Boron compounds inhibit avian flu replication…….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22145224/

Boron inhibits HPV replication and cervical cancer development. …….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17295277/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4712861/

Boron is important in immune function and fighting cancer. …..

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0150607

An excellent article on the history of Boron use, including food preservation, and the discovery that daily intakes >699mg/day were harmful to humans….

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2156587211407638

As regards Aluminium and Aluminum….

Aluminium is the English spelling and Aluminum is the American spelling, both are correct. Blame it on my English teacher from England.

I never said Arsenic is a metal, just that it is a toxin, as the metal Aluminium is also.

@Aelxa Hill

Interesting. I did not know that about silicon or its prevelance in beer.

Sadly, I’m back on cheap wine as the entire craft beer case and shelves are devoted to destroying the reputation of craft beer. This began in earnest last September ~21. The beer I drank was only very good for about two weeks and then falls off a cliff. Those craft beers are a living thing which dies in the can and rapidly putrifies to a state worse than Buttweiner to begin with. Their policy is “all beer is good for three months”, beer regional manager tells me. Ohh? Then I suppose they must have had a little mishap at the brewery.

Before the initial ‘ruining’, they had trouble keeping it in stock as people were coming from counties around to get it (~30 boxes a week got stocked). Afterwards, I’m the only one drinking it but it was still that 30 boxes. I had asked them on several occasions to order it weekly and ‘just enough’ but to no avail. Also, it is the same every time when it does get ‘re-upped’; first, it is mysteriously ‘out of stock’ for a couple weeks and when it arrives it is 2-3 weeks old. Dead on arrival. I’m done and am letting them eat 22 boxes.

More than a month ago, I pointed out a shelf section of Founder’s dated 3/3/20. This week, refrigerated, discounted a couple bucks, 3/3/20. Their gig is up, see? It is time to go full-on Karen but I don’t know how far up this goes.

Oof. I would have immediately gone negatively boyant and do snow angels in the sand until I found them. Sorry for your loss.

I never said Arsenic is a metal, just that it is a toxin, as the metal Aluminium is also.

Sure thing.

Aluminium is no different than [sic] Arsenic, [sic²] it is a metal the body can jot [sic] use for any metabolic process and mucks up the works

No doubt your “English teacher from England” would be proud of your randomly mixing spellings and overall yeoman’s work.

Then comes the Boron Highway, which is even more over the top for the fact that it results from your apparently not getting the joke.

You earn no golf claps.

Ohh, pipe down. She’s earned a couple jazz hands.

When a persons hands shake uncontrolably from alcohol withdrawl.
Man, Just thinking about an ice cold beer right now is giving me a mean case of Jazz Hands!

— urbandictionary

What about this article written by Harvey A Risch and published by Newsweek? https://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535 It is irresponsible and unethical of Newsweek to publish this.

And this article keeps popping up as evidence Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread
Martin J Vincent,1 Eric Bergeron,2 Suzanne Benjannet,2 Bobbie R Erickson,1 Pierre E Rollin,1 Thomas G Ksiazek,1 Nabil G Seidah,2 and Stuart T Nichol. Virol J. 2005; 2: 69.
Published online 2005 Aug 22.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/

The second paper is of value if you are primate cells growing in a petrie dish. Apart from that, not so much.

@68.10

Julian Frost said multiple times my facts were incorrect, and I gave citations proving what I said was true, such as the CC makes up the number of flu deaths annually.

Notice that he never once said he made a mistake when he claimed my information was incorrect, and that my citations clearly showed I wrote the truth. Instead he just continued nitpicking to make me jump through his stupid hoops.

Should I give a citation for every word I write? Perhaps for the word “a”? Be real, it would take hours to retrieve all the citations.

He showed no citations to backup each of his claims, tit for tat, boys. Put up or stop harassing.

@ Aelxa Hill

“He showed no citations to backup each of his claims, tit for tat, boys. Put up or stop harassing.”

OK. I “put up” and will keep “harassing”. Here’s the quote from the same website you quoted:

“CDC uses mathematical modeling in combination with data from traditional flu surveillance systems to estimate the numbers of flu illnesses in the United States.”

Which is a perfectly valid approach. What would you expect the CDC to do more??? Break into people’s homes and force-test them so that the sampling is as perfect as could be? It could get out of hand pretty quick

I really do not understand people like you who are unwittingly advocating for a medical dictatorship…

@ Aelxa Hill:

FYI:
Julian cites consensus material about medicine and science like that which proceeds from the CDC, NHS or his country’s scientific authorities and thus, does not need to provide detailed citations for each and every fact or one could instead point to references by the blog’s author via the search box.. It is the custom of this blog and many other outlets..

HOWEVER, if a commenter disputes consensus material THEY are the ones who have to show why they object in great detail, including links or references that readers can easily find. OBVIOUSLY, anecdotes or personal experiences carry much less weight that controlled studies with large numbers of subjects. Contrarian and alternative sources frequently rely upon anecdotes, testimonials and flawed research involving small numbers of subjects that were inadequately controlled
Examples:
–Wakefield at al; ” I saw my son regress into autism after vaccination”. VS
–Jain et al (2015), Hviid; Sally Ozonoff et al etc etc etc.

@Julian Frost

Yes, calculating the number of deaths from the flu is making it up, the range of “calculated deaths” is so wide by their methods it spans from 20,000 to 60,000 deaths per season, a huge gap of 40,000 people. Epidemiology is able to do a better job than estimating.

It is simple enough to get a number closer to the true numbers of deaths by just making the Flu a reportable disease.

If a person is admitted to the hospital with the flu as a diagnosis, when they die it is simple enough to put down the admitting diagnosis as the cause of death. A positive Flu test confirmed the Flu diagnosis on admission to the hospital.

Instead they put down pneumonia or heart failure as the cause of death, even though those are just effects from the flu virus which would not have occurred in the absence of the flu infection.

It would be like a person being admitted with the Measles, who gets pneumonia and dies. Do they put pneumonia as the cause? No, the put down “Complications of the Measles virus” after putting Measles as the main cause of death.

In that case, if we do the same tactic as they do with the Flu, there would never be any deaths from the Measles.

People with COVID-19 are reported as dying from COVID-19, not the Pneumonia, or Kidney Failure or Heart Attack or Hyperclotting Syndrome which the COVID-19 virus caused.

In Flu patients they can do the same, there is no need to make up fake numbers.

@F69.10

Just changing the Flu to a reportable disease is not “advocating for a medical dictatorship””.

I am not advocating forced testing, I am advocating recording the actual number of deaths from the flu.

I do not care how many people have the Flu, or COVID-19 either, just how many people actully died from the flu. How hard is that to do? Not hard at all.

Society needs accurate records in order to know where to allocate Public Health resources properly, anyone with a Public Health or Epidemiology degree will tell you this.

Just like our society needs various other things, a balance must be made, but it is impossible to do without real facts and figures. To make up a number when it is simple to get the true number reported, makes one ask what is being hidden.

While I am for everyone being made to wear a mask during this pandemic, I am not for invasive things like mandatory vaccination, which is an invasion of the human body.

However, if you are not vaccinated you have to take precautions in an epidemic, to both protect yourself and Society from the spread of of disease.

Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness in a Society means there are rules, but they should not be onerous to the individual.

@ Denise Walter

I am quoting real medicine information from Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins, the CDC, and from studies published on the NIH PubMed website that publishes Medical Studies and Medical Journal papers.

Just because the information is not common knowledge amongst the public, does not invalidate it.

The public consensus is not a validation of information, consensus is frequently incorrect. Just look at the Hydroxychloroquine problem, public consensus says it works, and real studies shows it does nothing when taken by itself.

Public consensus says this is a Respiratory illness, while medical studies shows that this is a virus that merely gains access to the human body via the lungs.

The Measles gains access to the human body via the lungs also, would you call it a Respiratory illness, too?

No, because it is not a Respiratory illness. But consensus continues tobdpread the false information that COVID-19 is merelyca Respiratory illness like the Flu.

As for citations, I have seen personal blogs and commercial magazines used as sources, not medical citations.

I use medical citations 99% of the time, rarely non-medical sites.

Tit for tat here girl, show the consensus citation before you say I am incorrect. It is just lazy to say it is “consensus” and common procedure.

While the exact cause of the Autism pandemic is unknown, and going from 1 in 2,000 children in 1991, to 1 in 58 children in 2020 is a pandemic, there are many facts known and being discussed among medical professionals.

One, the increase parallels folic acid use in both foods and pregnancy vitamins.

Two, 98% of people have the MTHFR genes C677T and A1298C, while in the general public the incidence is 60%.

Three, those two genes are known to impair methylation, a methylation system that is involved in every other system in the body, including converting folic acid into usable folate forms, plus is part of the body’s detoxification system.

Four, vaccines contain chemicals and often metals in concentrations known to be well above the FDA levels of safety for babies and children.

While a so-called study was published that “proves” vaccines do not cause Autism, the relationship in timing between vaccinations and Autism on-set in this population has kept the research alive in medical circles.

I am not talking anti-vaxx sites and blogs, I am talking real medical studies and papers published by the NIH on their PubMed site.

Since I can not access PubMed while writing this, I will post a slew of NIH links to papers and studies for you to peruse in your spare time.

Hope you know medical terminology and have a medical degree of some kind, plus have taken classes in statistics and how to develop a study that does not have built in bias.

Otherwise, you may have difficulties.

@ Aelxa Hill

“I am not advocating forced testing, I am advocating recording the actual number of deaths from the flu.”

Your position is bonkers. That would not increase the reliability of data. Assessing the prevalence and mortality of some disease is a different exercise than making the inventory of some random pawn shop. I’m pretty sure you won’t understand it and believe it’s a conspiracy to cover up the true data, but it isn’t.

“In Flu patients they can do the same, there is no need to make up fake numbers.”

This is not making up fake numbers. You do not understand the English language.

@ Aelxa Hill

“No, because it is not a Respiratory illness. But consensus continues to spread the false information that COVID-19 is merelyca Respiratory illness like the Flu.”

You’re completely nuts. There are respiratory issues from coronavirus and they can be quite severe.

You’re understanding of consensus also seems really bonkers to me, but I’m having trouble understanding what your beef with consensus is. You seem to pull it out of thin air.

You are a real piece of work.

@F68.10

I am bonkers for wanting real World data, rather then estimates from vague calculations?

Every person who dies and gets cremated and buried has a death certificate. The Cause of Death is plainly and clearly written on it, making it simply a matter of sending the information to the government…which is what happens.

The Flu is not reported because they have not made it a reportable condition. For some reason they do not want to see Flu as the Cause of Death placed on a Death Certificate. Reporting actual Flu deaths is simple to do, Instead they are willing to make up (calculate) a number every year instead.

I work in Medicine, we try to do our jobs the best we can, and we try to be a accurate as possible. I can tell you on any particular day exactly how many Cardiac Arrests we had, how many we resusitated and how many died.And the Cardiac Arrests who died are listed on the Death Certificate as Heart Attack being the Cause of Death.

There is no earthly reason not to list the Flu as the cause of Death if the patient died of the Flu.

Are you so adamant about making up a number, because this is your job to do and you want to keep it?

How about instead of reporting Heart Attacks we just make up a number for that medical condition, too?

Why record any medical condition in that case, just make all the numbers up and be done with it. I am sure it would keep creative computer programmers busy.

@F68.10

Heart Failure causes respiratory issues, too……do we in Medicine call Heart Failure a Respiratory Disease?

No.

COVID-19 is NOT A RESPIRATORY DISEASE.

God, how dense can you be? Or are you just bored to death and love to argue?

In the Beginning…… We in Medicine THOUGHT it was a Respiratory Illness, but after a month or so we realized we were not dealing with a illness that was Respiratory, it was merely a virus that gained entrance to the body through the lungs.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ucsf.edu/magazine/covid-body&ved=2ahUKEwinoa_c-IHrAhUSU98KHSfPD_04ChAWMAF6BAgIEAE&usg=AOvVaw1K-rNRJjYgI43W4hOeJ_vm

The Measles does the same thing, it gets into the body through the lungs by a person inhaling it. Measles is not a Respiratory illness either.

This is a new disease and mistakes were made because we never dealt with it before, and had no idea how to treat it, regular Respiratory drugs, and even ventilator setting were ineffective. Positive pressure ventilation was not helping, instead it was damaging the lungs further.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/933970&ved=2ahUKEwjQ0dX9-oHrAhXQmeAKHROKCxMQFjACegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3VLcGkGMhFV5eh7rfWB9-c

It was not until we realized this was a systemic disease that can and does attack every organ in the body, did we change tactics. And we are still learning every day more about what this virus can do.

This virus can cross the blood-brain barrier and cause Encephalitis, just like Infectious Meningitis does.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sciencealert.com/serious-cases-of-brain-damage-are-on-the-rise-and-covid-19-seems-to-be-behind-it/amp&ved=2ahUKEwjPnviJ-IHrAhWIiOAKHb-KBAwQFjAOegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw0TXocEz16N8Hz-YC9HNMlL&ampcf=1

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/dozens-more-cases-reported-of-neurological-problems-in-covid-19-67717/amp&ved=2ahUKEwjPnviJ-IHrAhWIiOAKHb-KBAwQFjAPegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw1dUxc1MA7AjpEf3deCNieG&ampcf=1

This is NOT a Respiratory Illness.

This virus can attack the kidneys and destroy them causing Kidney Failure.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-kidney-damage-caused-by-covid19%3Famp%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwjomuu0-IHrAhVih-AKHRYZD9cQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3LS1E7B77G_pZr6kIDd2s1&ampcf=1

This virus causes residual organ damage in 85% of hospitalized patients who survive, and 20% of “mild” cases that got better at home also have organ damage.

They are finding Heart damage most frequently, and this is often in patients who had no previous heart problem.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.cardiovascularbusiness.com/topics/cardiovascular-imaging/78-covid-19-patients-heart-damage-recovery&ved=2ahUKEwj73e2294HrAhVtmeAKHXwADPIQFjAIegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3ct8LTSACiS6uMFsznaFvK

Do stop being so snotty, you are tedious and repetitious in your posts.

And I can not believe I have to have a citation for commonly know facts that were published in newspapers and broadcast on TV. Perhaps people need to open their eyes and ears and minds before this virus kills or maims them.

ampcf=1

Are you on mobile, or something?? Dayum, that is some fast thumbs. Also, none of those links work for me because Gooble script shall not pass.

Just look at that wall’o’text those links comprize — you should be ashamed.

@ Aelxa Hill

“I am bonkers for wanting real World data, rather then estimates from vague calculations?”

You are bonkers for claiming that CDC is making up data. Yep. For sure.

Look, sweetie… I also want real world data rather than vague calculations for some subtypes of SIDS cases. And also a pony and a blowjob. The thing is… I won’t get them.

For the time being, recant your claim that the CDC is “making up” data. Until then, yes, you’re bonkers.

“Every person who dies and gets cremated and buried has a death certificate. The Cause of Death is plainly and clearly written on it, making it simply a matter of sending the information to the government…which is what happens.”

Yeah. Well go say that to L. Spears. More seriously: you are mixing two issues here. You cannot claim that CDC estimates are “unreliable” or “made up” just because they do not follow the method you fancy.

“Reporting actual Flu deaths is simple to do, Instead they are willing to make up (calculate) a number every year instead.”

It is not because it would be “easy” to make flu deaths “reportable” that such reports would be reliable… And I’d be very curious to know how “easy” that would be. You seem to be making an assumption that it is “easy”, but I generally assume that it is not that easy to discriminate “the” cause of death that easily. The raw reported figures are just what they are: raw reported figures. Not the most reliable ones.

“I work in Medicine”

As if I gave a fuck. I’m a professional patient and I heavily dislike doctors, specifically when they use appeal to authority to push forward their case. And I might call you “Mom” if your behaviour starts ringing too many bells…

“we try to do our jobs the best we can, and we try to be a accurate as possible.”

Sure, Mommy.

“I can tell you on any particular day exactly how many Cardiac Arrests we had, how many we resusitated and how many died. And the Cardiac Arrests who died are listed on the Death Certificate as Heart Attack being the Cause of Death.”

And I do not trust raw figures that do not undergo corrections by rigorous scientists. They’re more reliable than doctors.

“There is no earthly reason not to list the Flu as the cause of Death if the patient died of the Flu.”

Except that your CDC website claims that: “Also, most people who die from flu-related complications are not tested for flu, or they seek medical care later in their illness when influenza can no longer be detected from respiratory samples.”

“Are you so adamant about making up a number, because this is your job to do and you want to keep it?”

I’m a mathematician. I love numbers, but I do not see many of them any more. I deal with more abstract stuff.

“How about instead of reporting Heart Attacks we just make up a number for that medical condition, too?”

Well, I do expect that raw numbers are adjusted for pretty much every condition. I’d be disappointed if they weren’t.

“Why record any medical condition in that case, just make all the numbers up and be done with it.”

Here, you clearly enter the domain where I believe I can reasonable claim that you are a liar. This is not making up a number. A-b-s-o-l-u-t-e-l-y n-o-t.

“I am sure it would keep creative computer programmers busy.”

Oh yeah. Right. Your work is above the criticism of scientists. “Don’t they dare correct my numbers!”… Fuck me.

“Heart Failure causes respiratory issues, too……do we in Medicine call Heart Failure a Respiratory Disease? No.”

Come on.

“COVID-19 is NOT A RESPIRATORY DISEASE.”

Yeah, right. People die gasping, but, no, it’s not respiratory. We all know on this blog that organ damage shows that it’s not only respiratory, but your taxonomy fetish is starting to bore me to death.

“God, how dense can you be? Or are you just bored to death and love to argue?”

Could be. So what? You come here to argue, don’t you? What is this kind of “don’t you dare do what I myself do” mentality, Mom?

“In the Beginning…… We in Medicine THOUGHT it was a Respiratory Illness, but after a month or so we realized we were not dealing with a illness that was Respiratory, it was merely a virus that gained entrance to the body through the lungs.”

So? It’s a virus, that comes through the lungs. And people die gasping. But it’s not a respiratory illness…

“The Measles does the same thing, it gets into the body through the lungs by a person inhaling it. Measles is not a Respiratory illness either.”

So?

“This is a new disease and mistakes were made because we never dealt with it before, and had no idea how to treat it, regular Respiratory drugs, and even ventilator setting were ineffective. Positive pressure ventilation was not helping, instead it was damaging the lungs further.”

So?

“It was not until we realized this was a systemic disease that can and does attack every organ in the body, did we change tactics. And we are still learning every day more about what this virus can do.”

Good for you.

“This virus can cross the blood-brain barrier and cause Encephalitis, just like Infectious Meningitis does.”

What does all this have anything to do with your prior claims? I call that “drowning the fish”, Mom…

“This is NOT a Respiratory Illness.”

I already read you claiming that. Here’s what wikipedia has to say: “Common symptoms include fever, cough, fatigue, shortness of breath, and loss of sense of smell. Complications may include pneumonia and acute respiratory distress syndrome.” Do you deny any of this?

“This virus can attack the kidneys and destroy them causing Kidney Failure.”

So?

“This virus causes residual organ damage in 85% of hospitalized patients who survive, and 20% of “mild” cases that got better at home also have organ damage.”

So?

“They are finding Heart damage most frequently, and this is often in patients who had no previous heart problem.”

So?

“Do stop being so snotty, you are tedious and repetitious in your posts.”

I can be a bitch. Test me.

“And I can not believe I have to have a citation for commonly know facts that were published in newspapers and broadcast on TV.”

Neither did I believe I would need to quote the third paragraph of the Wikipedia article on the pandemic to defend my claim that there may be breathing issues involved… Sheesh…

“Perhaps people need to open their eyes and ears and minds before this virus kills or maims them.”

I do not mind being maimed.

The Measles gains access to the human body via the lungs

Only if one has misplaced one’s nasopharynx in them.

@Narad

Well, you know how it is about those metalloids. ….they can not decide if they are one thing or another.

And they never agree with each other, which way to bend towards anyhow.

If you have complaints about my English….Muerchten Sie das ich vieleicht in Deutsch schreib sollte?

My “smart”phone keeps trying to turn German into English, so I’ll just have to stick with English. Ta-ta for now.

@Tim

As a hard of hearing person and Mom of a person with Autism, I appreciate your jazz hands…..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/International/universitys-move-replace-clapping-jazz-hands-sparks-controversy/story%3fid=58254353

My son will not go places where sudden loud sounds occur, every year I have to watch fireworks on July 4th alone. 🙁

As a kid he would wear headgear over his ears and watch the fireworks, ear plugs were not effective, but as a teenager he did not want people to see that he has a huge problem with noise and starting refusing to go. He hates for anyone to know that he is different in any manner.

[…] Pro tip: If you haven’t yet bookmarked Dr. David Gorski’s incredibly valuable Respectful Insolence, do so now. Last week, Gorski sounded the alarms on the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons (AAPS). Amongst medical professionals and health care policy wonks AAPS is a notoriously far-right “astroturf” group, as they have an extensive track record of lobbying against Medicare (and not just “Medicare for All”, but also Medicare for anyone), any and all patient safety laws, and (of course!) vaccine requirements. Getting back to COVID-19, Gorski warned last week that AAPS was already spreading propaganda against wearing masks, for blaming COVID-19 on immigrants, and for hydroxychloroquine. […]

@F68.10

You are pretty pitiful, no wonder you are dreaming of a bj.

Yes, I like to be accurate, if you were really a mathematician you would be that way also, but apparently you are not, and just blow hot air .

Every source was to medical sources confirming this is not a Respiratory illness.

People with Heart Failure die gasping for air, as their lungs fill with plasma fluid backing up into the lungs, as the Heart is unable to circulate all the blood it has to but can not.

Heart Failure is not a Respiratory Disease and neither is COVID-19.

Why is that important? Because it affects what we have to do to watch out for and compensate for. The damage to the heart and kidneys is immense, often we are fighting a losing battle between lung tissue damage, heart damage and kidney damage. Try attempting to deal with all that in one hour, it is a bomb that goes off throughout the body. But you have no idea, you do not work in Medicine.

You say you do not mind bring maimed, well this virus can cause brain damage and psychosis, all from the virus destroying blood vessels in the brain, since it is a vascular disease and systemic effects are global throughout the body.

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/933131

You will not be happy if you get the virus and have a stroke, or other brain damage, nothing like getting a stroke and having to depend on another person for everything. The frustration is immense when you need to go, and no one is there or responding when you need a bedpan. I know how bad it is, I was paralyzed on my right side a total of four days from a Hemiplegic Migraine a few years ago. I never ever want to have a stroke and be like that for the rest of my life.

Your problem is you have a fixed idea about this virus, and are unwilling to modify your data. You are clinging to old inaccurate data and are getting angry at the messenger bringing you updated facts. For a mathematician to reject facts is highly unusual, unless the facts contradict their desired outcome. Talk about bias…..

Hence your ranting and raving about me.

The facts are there, do what you will with them, but I will have no sympathy for you if you are one of the Dumbo Loyal Lemmings not wearing a mask, and wind up hospitalized and on a ventilator.

Here a fact for you, 20% of the dead are Healthcare Workers, we are dying taking care of these patients. And the longer this goes on the fewer people will be there when you or your loved one gets sick.

I got a “mild” case and now am dealing with Heart and Kidney damage, and 20% of “mild” cases experience this same damage.

Beware of being maimed, you have no idea how bad it is. You should hope and pray you never find out for yourself.

So go on ranting about me, I will not respond to you anymore, you are a waste of time.

@ Aelxa Hill

“You are pretty pitiful, no wonder you are dreaming of a bj.”

The reference to a pony and a blowjob is a punchline from Chrisjen Avasarala in The Expanse. It explicitly refers to demagogy. Please learn your classics.

“Yes, I like to be accurate, if you were really a mathematician you would be that way also, but apparently you are not, and just blow hot air.”

You seem to have many preconceived notions about mathematicians. You’re not the first one. We do not live in a world of exactness and perfect axiomatics and perfect precision. This is how mathematics are really done, and there is a lot of intuition going on, ideas being tossed around and refuted, and not that much formalism when unnecessary. Gimme a break with your “accuracy” gambit which is essentially worth nothing.

As a matter of fact, I believe I’ve been rather precise when it came to making fun of you.

“Every source was to medical sources confirming this is not a Respiratory illness.”

No. They are sources showing that more than one thing is going on. Which is hardly surprising. I gave you quotes from Wikipedia asking you explicitly if these quotes were accurate. You have not answered. You’re therefore full of shit.

“Why is that important? Because it affects what we have to do to watch out for and compensate for.”

Everyone knows on this blog that organ damage from coronavirus is not merely respiratory. Who are you trying to fool??? Seriously???

“But you have no idea, you do not work in Medicine.”

I do not think it is extremely smart to make this kind of statement to someone with my ‘nym. The Wikipedia page on the topic of that ‘nym states: “In some extreme cases, people suffering from Munchausen syndrome are highly knowledgeable about the practice of medicine and are able to produce symptoms that result in lengthy and costly medical analysis, prolonged hospital stays, and unnecessary operations.”

“You say you do not mind bring maimed”

Yep.

“You will not be happy if you get the virus and have a stroke, or other brain damage, nothing like getting a stroke and having to depend on another person for everything.”

Are you kidding me?

“Your problem is you have a fixed idea about this virus”

Projection much? I was pretty much happy fooling you into acknowledging that what you call “possible” is precisely a medium by which toddlers can be abused medically. Thank you for proving the point I was really interested in. In fact, I believe I’m one of the rare self-avowed pro-disease person on Earth. I’m trying not to be overly annoying with it in the context of the pandemic, but if you really want me to take sides between Humanity and the Virus, I really may speak up my mind… Stop behaving like a spoilt brat.

“and are unwilling to modify your data.”

People do die gasping. Tough for you.

“For a mathematician to reject facts is highly unusual, unless the facts contradict their desired outcome. Talk about bias…..”

Yeah, talk about bias. Pinpoint a fact I have “rejected” by the way, big mouth.

“Hence your ranting and raving about me.”

You’re your worst advocate.

“I will have no sympathy for you if you are one of the Dumbo Loyal Lemmings not wearing a mask, and wind up hospitalized and on a ventilator.”

A frightening perspective for someone with my ‘nym… Why am I laughing out loud at your pathetic emotional blackmail? Why?

“Here a fact for you, 20% of the dead are Healthcare Workers, we are dying taking care of these patients.”

I do not believe it would be politically correct to speak my mind openly on this topic… I do not like health professionals much. If at all… I do try, at times, to have a more positive view of them, but I’m in for the long haul…

“And the longer this goes on the fewer people will be there when you or your loved one gets sick.”

I’m fine with that.

“I got a “mild” case and now am dealing with Heart and Kidney damage, and 20% of “mild” cases experience this same damage.”

Do not tempt me in showcasing how insensitive I can be.

“Beware of being maimed, you have no idea how bad it is.”

Yeah. Right.

“You should hope and pray you never find out for yourself.”

I’m pretty much annoyed when anyone claims they are “praying” for me.

“So go on ranting about me, I will not respond to you anymore, you are a waste of time.”

You are a waste of your own time.

Drop the abusive appeal to authority, and I may express some courtesy and compassion. At least superficially. Until then…

Yes, I like to be accurate, if you were really a mathematician you would be that way also, but apparently you are not, and just blow hot air .

Granting this pathetic display arguendo, at least his English is better than yours.

@Narad

🙂 If the virus stayed in the nasopharanx, only the upper section of the Respiratory system, then the disease would not get anywhere else into the body. Without the lungs the disease goes nowhere at all, just like COVID-19 the lungs are where the virus has to get.

The Lungs are the access point for systemic infection, not the nasopharanx.

People who have the virus in the nasopharanx only do not get sick, until the virus gets down into the lungs, we see this with COVID-19. The nasopharanx is just the entrance to the lungs.

@ Aelxa Hill

“The Lungs are the access point for systemic infection, not the nasopharanx.”

I thought there was some kind of connexion between the lungs and the nasopharynx.

Does the horrific imagery used at the beginning of this post indicate that the black knight doesn’t matter? Hmm, when will the white knight come to the rescue?

@ Orac,

Retract this post, it’s insensitive with only a smidgen of respectful insolence.

I switched to using the Black Knight because I’ve beat the parrot sketch to death discussing antivaccine conspiracy theories.

@ MJD

“Hmm, when will the white knight come to the rescue?”

I’ve never met a White Knight. Only Black Knights. And a fair indication that you’re in front of a Black Knight is that he pretends that he’s a White Knight.

Let the (new) conspiracy mongering begin…

( National Geographic/ animals; @ natashadaly)
It seems that the first dog to test positive for Covid-19, Buddy of Staten Island, NY, has died. He was seven and most likely had lymphoma which should be kept in mind. People will be freaking out and probably flooding veterinarians’ offices with calls

Also:
Forbes had a good article about why you “shouldn’t do your own research” because generally, most people just gravitate to what they already want to believe.( Oh, do we know about that!)
Age of Autism and Ginger Taylor disagree

The people I survey do their own research and we know that that results in: woo, anti-vax and bizarre political positions. Most adults don’t possess the scientific background or critical thinking skills to check themselves, because they’re “the easiest people to fool” as someone once said..
..

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman
Richard Feynman —
“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool.”

Another quote that is applicable to what we are seeing from the alt-med and brave mavericks in health care —
“In this age of specialization men who thoroughly know one field are often incompetent to discuss another.”
.
Have fun.

@ Reality:

I’ve never YET heard a woo-doer or anti-vaxxer bring up RF- I wonder why? HOWEVER, I HAVE heard about “Oxxam’s Razor” (sic) and “teaching critical thinking” (PRN) OR ( a real howler) about sceptics experiencing “cognitive dissonance” which is not at all what LF meant. How do I know this? Well….guess.

@Denice Walter

Rational and logical thought is anathema to the woo-woos as they depend upon irrational belief rather than facts for their Weltanschauung even though they claim to be scientific… they are not. They are medieval mystics pretending to be rational and scientific.
.
RE – Leon:
Was he one of your profs?

Yes, I know the kooks trying to paint rational skeptics as experiencing “cognitive dissonance” isn’t what he was describing. Quite the contrary his seminal research showed that committed kooks merely rationalized and doubled down on their error when the error became evident. A trait of the True Believer™. It is one of the kook’s traits to try to project onto their rational opponents when cornered.

One of my profs/ mentors sent me to take seminars with him about research in cognition- he was then less about social psych and more about cultures or perception… He was an absolute riot: funny, charming, cool, sarcastic “Real New York”.
He was probably already sick but didn’t show it: he smoked a lot but that wasn’t what finally got him I was sad to read about his death.

Critical thinking may be beyond them when they seem to have trouble grasping things like the difference between “per 1000” and “per 100,000.”

The question of vaccines causing Autism is more complicated than mist people realize.

There is a gene called MTHFR, which is involved in many biological functions, from converting hormones, converting nutrients (like artificial folic acid into foliate forms like methylfolate the body can use, etc) and also it is involved with the detoxification system.

Now there are two MTHFR genes, C667T and A1298C, which perform these functions poorly. If you have one copy your methylation system works at about 70% of normal, and with two copies it works at around 20% of normal.

About 60% of the population carries one or more of these genes, however a huge study done by an American University a few years ago showed that 98% of people with Autism carry these genes.

Now in 1991 the federal government starting advising ob/gyn doctors to give all their pregnant patients folic acid to prevent spinal cord problems like Spinal Bifida.

Before 1991 the Autism rate was almost 1 in 2,000 children, and as the years have gone by it is now in 2020, 1 in about 36 children. Autism is a neurological disease/disorder.

Spinal Bifida incidence has barely changed.

Now, imagine a baby or child with a methylation problem…..the system is already trying to deal with folic acid. And you need a proper balance of folate, B6 and B12 form the brain and nervous system to develop correctly.

So far the methylation system has be just barely managing to deal with the folic acid, now shoot the child up with a vaccine filled with chemicals, metals, etc which were put in it to challage the immune system to pay attention and make antibodies to the weak live or dead part of a disease complex molecule.

What is a methylation system to do? It was trying to deal with the folic acid that was impairing the brain and nervous system growth and development. …..then it got thrown a curve ball in the form of a sudden surge of crap to detoxify.

Oopppsppsss.

Now with the methylation system overwhelm, brain damage happens causing the Wonderful World of Autism.

The whole thing could be avoided with one of two things.

A….test everyone for the MTHFR genes, plus genes like CBS that are also involved in detoxification, and then making sure they never eat folic acid and get methylfolate instead. That also means taking folic acid enriched foods and no longer adding folic acid to foods.

B…..Or just eliminating adding folic acid into foods, vitamins, etc.

Then we only have to be careful of the people with two copies of C667T and A1298C, they will still be endanger from vaccines since their methylation system works at 20% on a good day…. and it is usually busy dealing with the pesticides and fluorocarbons and other toxic chemicals we dump into the air, food and water, thinking out of sight out of mind. In addition to it’s normal functions of hormone conversions, vitamin conversions, etc, etc.

I happened to be a two copy person, but fortunately I grew up before the vaccine craze, of a vaccine for every small disease. I only got the Small Pox and Polio vaccines, which did not contain a bunch of metals and chemicals in them.

I did get the Chicken Pox, German Measles, regular Measles, etc and survived them all with no bad effects, as did my five siblings, and all the kids in our school. Not one kid died or developed any residual effects.

Well, I did develop shingles when in my 30s, but even the Chicken Pox vaccine will give you that over time. Darn stealth viruses.

So the story of vaccines is complicated, did you know that the Measles can reset the immune system to it’s original settings like a computer?

That means the Measles vaccine may wipe out the antibody information from previous vaccinations. Meaning you may need to revaccinate for everything.

Oh dear, when first we try Mother Nature to deceive….she will smack you in the head.

So do not think vaccinations do not cause Autism, it depends on what genes the poor kid inherited from Mom and Dad.

And what crap the kid has to detoxify in order to stay alive in this Brave New World.

There is a gene called MTHFR

Genes are italicized, proteins are roman. As for the rest, I will repeat my request that somebody find a mechanic who can repair a turnip truck.

I did get the Chicken Pox, German Measles, regular Measles, etc and survived them all with no bad effects, as did my five siblings, and all the kids in our school. Not one kid died or developed any residual effects.

That’s called “survivor bias”. Just because you don’t know anyone who died or suffered permanent sequelae doesn’t mean everyone was so lucky. One of my mother’s classmates had a hand crippled by polio, and a teacher of hers had a hunchback, also from polio. Roald Dahl’s daughter Olivia was killed by measles encephalitis. My driving instructor was deaf in one ear, thanks to measles. Every year, thousands of children lost their hearing to measles. Vaccines put a stop to that.

@Narad “Those numbers are not genes.”

You are quite wrong.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.114.013311&ved=2ahUKEwiUwrD2hoLrAhXLhOAKHcs6DT8QFjAQegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2QWbwv2rDoU72hXvWF541W

A1298C and C677T are called gene variants, or gene mutations, but by any other name they are genes. MTHFR is made up of two genes. You get one from Mommy and one from Daddy. Mom could give you the A1298C GENE and Dad could give you the C677T. GENE.

GENES the things that are not blue and tacky.

Get a medical education and then tell me how to suck eggs, numbnuts.

@Deni¢e writes, “Forbes had a good article about why you “shouldn’t do your own research” because generally, most people just gravitate to what they already want to believe.”

Translation – Most people are too dumb to understand the $cience.

I read the article from Forbes but stopped once the author tried to convince the reader flouride in the drinking water is good for us. Author is out of touch. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/04/why-fluoride-water/606784/

“Fluorides—compounds of fluorine—can be nearly as toxic but are much more stable. They are a common waste product of the fertilizer, pesticide, refrigeration, glass, steel, and aluminum industries. In the ’30s, many of these industries were facing protests and lawsuits for poisoning workers, polluting the soil, and contaminating water supplies. Understandably, executives were thrilled to discover that the chemicals they had to get rid of because they could seep into city water systems might be gotten rid of by being jettisoned into city water systems.”

Also realized Forbes sold the magazine In 2014 to a Hong Kong-based investment group, Integrated Whale Media Investments. Bias anyone?

https://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/countries.pdf

So, uh, no, Duhnice, I’ll continue to read and draw my own conclusions.

Good day.

So, uh, no, Duhnice, I’ll continue to read and draw my own conclusions.

Do you assign different crayon colors to different topics?

@ Natalie White

“Most people are too dumb to understand the $cience.”

People who put a dollar sign at “science” are quite likely too be dumb enough not to want to understand the science.

Yes, fluor (in general) is toxic. That doesn’t change anything to the fact that claiming out of the blue that fluoride in water is toxic is utterly bonkers. Whether or not one wants fluoride in water is another topic. There are, by the way, situations that are perfectly natural, no human tampering, where fluoride concentration is excessive and detrimental to health, from what I gathered. No Big Bu$ine$$ involvement, though, in these situations…

Personally, I tend to think that human dentition is not an ultima ratio justifying tampering in this way with the environment. It would justify diminishing the concentration of fluor when detrimental, but not adding it to the water in rich countries. But that’s completely besides the point.

“Also realized Forbes sold the magazine In 2014 to a Hong Kong-based investment group, Integrated Whale Media Investments. Bias anyone?”

You do not justify not dealing with arguments on the mere basis of alleged bias. Detail your bias allegations.

Of course, you agree with Kim Rossi and Ginger Taylor ( AoA article today ) and disagree with Orac ( @ gorskon’s recommendation ) and me. The article describes anti-vaxxers, AGW deniers and other contrarians/ denialists. If the shoe fits.

I rest my case.

Fluoride, bromide, etc all block iodine and cause thyroid problems.

Before the 1970s they used an iodine product in bread called iodate as a bread conditioner, then they chaconditioners bromine dough conditioner.

From that time the cases of Hypothyroidism has continually gone up and up, and is now very high due to people avoiding salt. Salt, the last thing on the American table that would provide a daily dose of iodine.

But still, fluoride , bromide and other chemical close in structure continue to block iodine, causing disease.

“But still, fluoride , bromide and other chemical close in structure continue to block iodine, causing disease.”

I can’t say that I disagree with this. In the 70’s and 80’s people avoided iodized salt because zits. BOOM! goes the dynamite; Saggy tits.

@Julian Frost

“That is survivor bias”……no, it is called subjective observation.

And yes, any disease can have the effect of killing and maiming.

Just as vaccines can and do kill and maim.

However today’s Measles and other vaccines give such poor results they do not protect against disease and are even causing resistant strains of disease to develop.

There is no perfect solution, but making vaccines safer by removing the toxins, and giving one immunization for one disease only at a time, will allow the body to handle immunizations better and reduce the likelihood of bad side-effects.

And if someone does not want an immunization that is their right, no one should be forced to take a vaccination. If a person has genes which make them more likely to suffer bad effects, then they have a right to take a chance catching the disease.

Just as you can not force a person to take medicine for a disease, you should not force immunizations on anyone. Especially if the vaccination is not effective at preventing infection.

“Every year thousands of children lost their hearing to Measles.”

True, and every year even now children today lose their lives, or develop disability from vaccines.

Vaccines did not eliminate death and disability, vaccines do cause death and disability in multitudes of children.

The increase in Autism from 1 in 2,000 children, to 1 in 36 children even mirrors the vaccination rates. The heartbreak of parents who have to support these children, most for their entire lives is staggering.

“That is survivor bias”……no, it is called subjective observation.

So just because you didn’t know anyone who was killed or disabled by these diseases they didn’t exist? That is absolutely survivor bias.

…vaccines can and do kill and maim.

Citation needed.

However today’s Measles and other vaccines give such poor results they do not protect against disease…

Vaccination rates are at over 90%. When VPD outbreaks occur, around half of the victims are unvaccinated. A back of the envelope calculation gives an effectiveness rate of over 90%.

Vaccines did not eliminate death and disability

They sent disease rates plummeting by over 90% and reduced deaths and sequelae by huge amounts. They may not be perfect, but they are excellent.

vaccines do cause death and disability in multitudes of children.

Citation needed.

The increase in Autism…

Vaccines do not cause autism. After Andrew Wakefield’s fraudulent “case study” was released, the question was thoroughly investigated. Large studies and metastudies done in multiple countries returned the same result. Vaccines do not cause autism.

from that nevada-today.com link above:
https://youtu.be/Aez1bOPKFj0?t=330

Stella wears masks. Good ones.
creating containers for demons (Chucky style maybe??)
terroristic gays
yoga is demonic
don’t give your kids McToys because witchcraft, psycics, snails, snakes, pokemon (eastern demons)*
majic 8-ball is a psychic*
*debasing art
she does look chique in that purple hat

yoga is demonic

Certainly, if one peruses Catholic chitchat sites. Still, I really didn’t expect to read the words “Subhas R. Tiwari, a professor at the Hindu University of America who holds a master’s degree in yoga philosophy” today.

r/BrandNewSentence

“It is important for Catholics to know that yoga should neither be hallowed nor damned.”

I don’t need to know what you were doing lurking around there, I’m not waiving any flags.

But for those who may not have gotten that far into the video (9:30 or something, I don’t even know anymore) because you rammed something much smaller than your finger into your ears.. My reptilian tympana (mom had issues, don’t judge), being much more external and more easily fixed with cyanoacrylate and crepe paper allowed me to continue…

The study that made me starting using hydroxychloroquine was a study that (I/they??){garbled} did in NIH, in 2005 {that’s how it works?}…. Recently, I was doing some research about a patient that had hiccups and I found that they even did a recent study… our national NIH..That is Uhh,, which is umm, that is..of health. They actually had a study {I go look it up?}. Type “hiccups and covid”. You will see it. That treating a patient that have hiccups with hydroxychloroquine and it proved that covid is a symptom of hy.. of of .. co..wa wa wa ha..hiccups is of hy.. of covid. So if the NIH knows that treating the patient with hydroxychloroquine proves that hiccup is a symptom of covid then they definately know that hydroxychloroquine works .

Aand the above was extremely difficult to transcribe and I probably missed/added some stuff. Earlier today, I was able to right click and see the bitchute* address and go directly to the .mp4– That has been thwarted for the casual user of that site and the slider for going back and forth on their link is very, umm, a dark pattern–sliding it back may take one forward. I note they very recently got behind CF.

*Bitchute (a dumpster fire) even has a “not safe for life (NSFL) setting for extreme or strongly questionable content that may cause psychological trauma if viewed”. Did it get applied? Ohh no, it did not.

Perhaps, Narad, you should ask Professor Tiwari for a reference to a good turnip truck mechanic……

He surely must eat alot of them.

No, no. Lack of iodine, over time, gave everyone saggy titties;. And lawn fetishishes.

p.s. I agree about the ‘folic acid’; I think it is something to be avoided and labels be like “this crud contains 50% of the recommended daily value of crud.”

Interesting observation, Tim. So a lack of iodine is causing the national obsession with big pink plastic lawn flamingoes……and other plastic crap from China.

Good to know.

I need to sneak some iodine into my neighbor’s water. The Flamingoes are creeping closer and closer…..

Arrrgghhhhh!!!!! Too late, they got me! I have been Flamingo Bombed, someone pass me a flamethrower before it is too late to survi……….

Dearly beloved, we sadly are gathered here todayto bury Joanie’s beloved pink flamingo flock, cut down before their time from toxic human poisoning.

Following this memorial we will be having the memorial for Alexa, so please stay on to participate….

@Julian Frost

This is the last citation you get from me..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/vaers/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwiv4ZXn9P7qAhUQnOAKHcsBBOcQFjABegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1fpV5vpQy_rGdUEmV3YWPq

On the CDC VAERS webpage are listed all the REPORTED serious effects from vaccinations.Most side-effects are not reported as the CDC webpage clearly states.

Meta-studies are pure trash put out by people who do not want to do any real studies. They cherry-pick the studies and can prove anything they want. If you want a citation for that ……go read the book “how to prove anything with statistics” written back it the 1970s, or at least it was one of the textbooks we had to buy in my first University Statistics course I had to take in order to run studies we did in University.

Now go suck a dead fish, you are way beyond boring, and know nothing of Medicine.

@ Aelxa Hill

“Meta-studies are pure trash put out by people who do not want to do any real studies.”

Gee…

Eat shit. That way you’ll start recognizing shit when you see shit.

With what would you replace “meta-studies” if you had to discriminate between all the conflicting data out there? Please enligh… entertain us.

@Aelxa, from the CDC Page on VAERS:

VAERS serves as an early warning system to detect possible safety issues with U.S. vaccines by collecting information about adverse events (possible side effects or health problems) that occur after vaccination.

Operative word POSSIBLE. Just because an adverse event is reported to VAERS doesn’t mean the vaccine caused it.

@Julian Frost

Of course it says “possible” side-effect…. If you worked in Medicine you would know that everything is labeled “possible” until it is confirmed.

We have patients admitted with “Possible Appendicitis” and until it is confirmed, we still treat the patient as if they have Appendicitis because they likely do.

“Possible” does not mean the same in Medicine as it is used in the Public Domain, it is a qualifier until it is confirmed.

The same applies to Vaccines….if enough side-effects are reported they know the formulation needs to be changed, as something in the Vaccine is causing problems beyond the usual expected rates and kinds of side-effects.

Remember the Swine Flu vaccine? People died and became paralyzed, but each report was treated as a “Possible Side-Effect”.

That is how we do it in Medicine, everything is possible until confirmed.

@ Aelxa Hill

“we still treat the patient as if they have Appendicitis because they likely do.”

So when a caretaker comes and claims that his kid has this or that ailment, merely on the ground that it is “possible”, notwithstanding tests that do not support the claims, you act just to be on the “safe” side? Because the kid “likely” does have, say, appendicitis?…

Really?

And you were the one complaining about bogus death records?

Oh! The irony

@Tim – The condition is called, Aspergillosis – “https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/14770-aspergillosis

https://www.cdc.gov/fungal/diseases/aspergillosis/index.html

Most people do not have a problem with mold spores, however, the immuno-compromised are susceptible. Perhaps he has been quarantining in a moldy domicile? Brazil is hot and humid. Mold and mildew are problematic in that kind of climate.

Good day.

“Perhaps he has been quarantining in a moldy domicile?”

He’s been a sick puppy these last few weeks (week==15 years.. a different kind of sick though). My best guess is that he got the mold off some kind of dirty tubing. And now his wife and minister are also going to have moldy lungs.

Also, What kind of authentic authoritarian He-man gets bitten by an Emu?

Just out, an editorial in JAMA by Robert Califf (former head of FDA) denouncing the many observational studies on hydroxychloroquine, and calling for reliance on randomized controlled trials. “Weighing the Benefits and Risks of Proliferating Observational Treatment Assessments – Observational Cacophony, Randomized Harmony”. While he doesn’t go into details on the problems of each non-randomized study, he does make clear his view that the only reliable evidence on HCQ for COVID19 is that it is not effective.

Thanks, David.
Here’s a link to the article:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2769139
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2769139
Viewpoint
July 31, 2020
Weighing the Benefits and Risks of Proliferating Observational Treatment AssessmentsObservational Cacophony, Randomized Harmony
Robert M. Califf, MD1; Adrian F. Hernandez, MD, MHS2,3; Martin Landray, MBChB4
JAMA. Published online July 31, 2020. doi:10.1001/jama.2020.13319

Just saw this website going around: c19study.com.

My quick interpretations: They are reinterpreting the Boulware NEJM study to be positive apparently based on the idea that patients who had to wait longer to get the medicine in the mail showed less beneficial effect of the treatment. So I’m guessing they are also skewing a lot of the other study’s results as well.

I have no idea what they are doing to “demographically adjust” the data in the displayed country deaths graph, but it mysteriously drops all the HCQ countries relative to the “non HCQ” countries.

Anyone have a good take-down of this?

I described this site elsewhere as motivated cherry picking. It starts with their lists of studies. No account is taken of the strength of the studies. Larger, better quality studies are given the same weight as small observational studies and opinion pieces. Even then, studies are given a positive rating if any outcome is significant, even if the study as a whole is negative.

So it goes right through the website.

If Orac ever gets tired of Respectful Insolence, Observational Cacophony would be a good name for the blog.

@Chris Preston

Came across the “c19study” site too and have similar feelings to yourself. It seems to be trying to push HCQ (particularly early HCQ) as hard as it can while trying to look as though it’s not doing that.

“Negative” studies get picked at, or even a bit of creative re-interpretation of the results – such as with the Boulware study.

On the flipside “positive” studies get a pass, no matter how small, or how terrible they are.

Contrast the handling of the Boulware study there with the Lee Korean one – “Lee” had no control, small numbers of patients, etc Strangely the diligent folks at c19study don’t feel the need to dissect this at all, they just chalk it up as another “win” for HCQ.

Right-wing blogs Gateway Pundit and The Post Millennial variously report that Simone Gold has retained attorney Lin Wood (most recently prominent for securing face-saving nuisance settlements on behalf of the Covington Catholic kid) to represent her, either for improper termination by her hospital employer for appearing in the video–which is weird, as according to her LinkedIn, she’s self-employed, with her only doctoring activity any time recently is listed as a concierge practice*–or for libelslander and/or censorship by social media giants (and maybe the RICO, who knows). Both cranksites reference the same Tucker Carlson interview, which I’d rather have periodontal work than view, so how they arrived at such different takes is a mystery (unless it involves backpedaling and/or historical revision). Anyway, her website quickly found a new host, where the “donate to our legal fund” button seamlessly integrates the Brave Maverick martyrdom into the overall grift.

* Exactly how one would expect to market AND deliver emergency medicine in a concierge model from one’s home address is also… puzzling, to say the least.

May I say one thing? There’s a lot of people saying very negative things about me, I would ask people to stop saying negative things about me… We’ve hired Lin Wood to help me in this matter and I hope that puts to rest anything that people might want to say that is defamatory.

Tucker: ahhwehha I hope so to ( ͡o ͜ʖ ͡o)

https://twitter.com/BarrettWilson6/status/1289000840192237569

It is completely false and defamatory that my cat gave this person an Alabama hot pocket — “willingly”. {Tucker, I mean}

These beautifully animated videos are just… gone. So, it takes up lots of space:

Live your life in fur and whiskers
Fourteen years on four small paws
Ate the heads and left the bodies
Of the victims of your claws

I poked you and you scratched me
Each claw like a tiny knife
And through it all I shared with you
Some of the best times in my life

Last year dead, year before alive
This year, still dead. Sad

Your indifference to that puppy
Selling bog roll on the telly
Made me love you so I didn’t care
That your breath was smelly

Your little kidneys couldn’t
Handle it no more
Not unlike Pope John Paul II
Be he had fewer paws

You were not that religious
Also unlike Pope John Paul
And he lived in the Vatican
But you had never been there
At all, oh at all

This year dead, year before alive
This year, still dead. Sad

–Tom Milsom

Emergency Room Physicians would as independent contractors, having a contract to provide services to the hospital in the ER.

Apparently, the hospital terminated the contract and booted her to the curb.

There was likely a tiny clause in that contract than she did not notice letting the fire her at a moments notice.

Emergency Medicine as a concierge service…instead of calling an ambulance, the doctor comes to your home and drives you to the ER ?

Most ER visits, especially after hours or on weekends are not really emergencies, so calling might be an option, depends if she is any good. My last ER doc could not tell Compensated Metabolic Acidosis (HCO3 was 18), instead he diagnosed Anxiety with Hypervention causing Respiratory Alkalosis.

We call them “Dr Dumb Duck”….quack, quack.

Emergency Room Physicians would as independent contractors, having a contract to provide services to the hospital in the ER.

Please for to rephrase in English.

We call them “Dr Dumb Duck”….quack, quack.

“We”? I’m having trouble keeping track of them. Perhaps you could adopt a brand name or cipher out your Gödel number or something.

Hey, Narad, blame it on,my ancient “smart”phone. I fixed errors before sending it out and still the errors occur.

I wrote “Emergency Physicians would be working as Independant contractors,…..”

And ” …a tiny clause in that contract, letting the hospital fire her….”

“We call them Dr Dumb Duck”…. refers to us poor smucks who work hospital double 8 hour shifts back to back, taking care of the patients, and trying to catch the physician errors before they kill a patient.

You would not believe the orders for medications that are clearly listed in patients charts as allergies, and the hospital pharmacy dispenses them to the floor.

More people die from drug errors and drug reactions, then you could believe. That it still happens in 2020 boggles the mind.

I wrote “Emergency Physicians [sic] would be working as Independant [sic] contractors,….. [sic]”

Perhaps you could make good on the assertion that most ED doctors are independent contractors.

@Narad

Here is a whole list of medical associations and even a PubMed article on ER Physicians as Independant Contractors……

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10145998/

https://www.acep.org/life-as-a-physician/careers/contracts/ep-contracts-handshakes-and-other-red-flags/

https://epmonthly.com/article/personal-finance-should-you-be-an-independent-contractor/

https://www.workforce.com/news/emergency-room-physician-is-independent-contractor-cannot-pursue-bias-claims-court

https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/Books/aspen/Aspen-Hospital-3.html

When you go into the ER they have your sign paperwork and if you read it carefully you will find an advisory that for many services you will be getting separate bills not from the hospital for those services. Radiologists and ER physician bills are almost always billed separately because they are not hospital employees, but Independant contractors.

Here is a whole list of medical associations and even a PubMed article on ER Physicians as Independant [sic] Contractors

None of which support your contention, but all of which are old, including one pure anecdote.

When you go into the ER they have your sign paperwork and if you read it carefully you will find an advisory that for many services you will be getting separate bills not from the hospital for those services.

Your certainty is misplaced, as I can serve as around four counterexamples.

@Narad

There is no uncertainty, if you go to any ER there is a very high likelihood the ER physician is a Independent Contractor. I get enough bills from each,of my ER visits to know, and the paperwork you sign on admission to the ER clearly states you can expect to get bills from others working there.

Here is a webpage link to a January 2019 article on this, hope it is “new ” enough for your scratching obsession. ……

https://thedo.osteopathic.org/2019/01/lone-wolf-the-pros-and-cons-of-life-as-an-independent-contractor/

Here is one from February 2019……

http://byarslaw.com/independent-contractor-or-physician-employee-considerations-for-your-practice/

Here is an article from Emergency Physicians Monthly on the topic….

https://epmonthly.com/article/personal-finance-should-you-be-an-independent-contractor/

You have no way way to know if the physician who sees you in the ER is an Independent Contractor, unless you ask. And a hospital can have both physician employees and Independant Contractors working their ER.

@kfunk937 –
She’s got a problem.
Unlike Richard Jewell and Nick Sandmann who were private individuals she put herself forward as a public figure representing and org. that was giving a press conference intended to garnish national and international notice.
She gave up her “private citizen” mantle and intentionally became a public figure.
In this she is now no different than Trump, Pelosi, Fauci, etc. and must put up with what comes with being a public figure.
In the US it is very difficult to get a decision of libel/slander against a public figure no matter how egregious the comments seem to be.
She’s brought it on herself and she and Lin Wood will have virtually zero chance of prevailing in any action on that front and will incur the large costs of their legal actions should they try and fail.
I hope she has a large bank account… IOW – She and lawyer Wood will file no actions, IMO.
.
Is Lin Wood a moronic adolescent QAnon cultist?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/right-richter-why-is-the-right-so-obsessed-with-hydroxychloroquine?ref=scroll
.
I have no feelings one way or another about Wood and remember the Richard Jewell fiasco where he was tried in the press which ruined his life.
.
Have fun.

He was still kinda still a ‘mouth breather’ though:
https://youtu.be/gSMxBLlA8qY?t=1

I once took a friend’s* friend through a cave with a ‘siphon’ — a real seasonal watergate– and remarked that “If I was Eric Rudolf, this is where I’d be. And the ‘friend’, who just happended to be from Arlington, remarked “We are never gonna find the son of a bitch.”

*gave me some ‘pot’ in the cave which was later revealed to be Jimson weed. I do love me some scopalamine now — takes the jitters away.

@ Tim

“I do love me some scopalamine now”

Aahh… Devil’s breath… I had some very nasty ideas with it, when I was at the paroxysm of being pissed off by medicine. Very very nasty. I now feel like a saint for having pushed back against my sadistic impulses.

Seeds of jimson weed are so easy to come by…

Thanks.No need to dig it up. I was just a little concerned. She is in a work position that may put her at risk for COVID. We’ve lost a few people around here over the years.

You should read the comments from some honky doctors and nurses on Medscape, where they say masks are useless and actually spread the virus or else being forced to wear mask is a infringement on their right. And my all time favorite….that it is a liberal-socialist-communist conspiracy to take away their freedom.

Doctors can be as clueless as the general public, take it from a Respiratory Therapist who has to deal with Pulmonologists who give orders to ventilate patients with the same volumes and rates no matter if they are 4 foot tall and 85 pounds, or 6 foot 4 and 250 lbs.

I was on Hydroxychloroquine years ago for my arthritis, the stuff will destroy your eyesight even years later, because it is so toxic. While on it I had to have regular eye exams to check for damage, and still lost sight in my right eye years after stopping it.

Hydroxychloroquine is merely a Zinc Ionophore, it transports Zinc into cells, where the Zinc then kills the SARS- CoV-2 virus. You do not have to use Hydroxychloroquine to do that …..both Quinine (it is in Quinine Water) and Quercetin, which is on every health food store shelf, act as Zinc Ionophore.

Back in March I caught this nifty virus, and found out on a professional Viral Geneticist website that this virus was susceptible to both iron and zinc. I promptly treated myself with Quercetin and Zinc, along with Lactoferrin. Also took 9mg of Boron a day, as Boron does interfere in viral replication of HPV. Figured if it can stop HPV replication, if may impede the COVID-19 virus.Also threw in some Melatonin as the theory why kids under 10 are almost never infected by COVID-19 might be due to their very high Melatonin levels.

Let’s face it, if you have a completely new disease, you try anything that may possibly work to stay alive. I survived, and I have multiple medical conditions that made me the “Most Likely To Die” prize winner. My doctors thought I was going to die when I caught it, but I even managed to stay out of the hospital, where I probably would have died as they had nothing it treat it with.

This is a new disease, and it will take time yo dirt out what works, and what decreases mortality from this virus.

Right now people on Dupixent are found to rarely die from COVID-19 and have much milder cases. Thoughts are that since Dupixent reduces IL-6, and release for IL-6 starts the cytokine storm that kills people with COVID-19, that treating patients with Dupixent would help reduce deaths in the most susceptible patients.

We are living and learning here people, remember in the beginning we thought COVID-19 was purely a Respiratory virus…. now we know it attacks the ACE2 receptors inside all our blood vessels and travels to every part if the body, causing damage to multiple organs, the heart, kidneys, liver, brain. Take your pick, 85% of hospitalized patients have residual organ damage. And 20% of do-called “mild” cases are showing organ damage that can permanently disable you.

So wear a mask, keep you distance and be smart. This virus will kill you, and if you survive you have a huge chance of suffering permanent organ damage.

I got damage to my heart from it, and am now permanently disabled and retired.

Oh, and a tip…..those so-called “disposable” facemasks they give out everywhere can last 450 years before they decompose. I just let them sit in a paperbag for a week, then wash without fabric softener and air-dry to reuse. Never throw them away, with multiple masks available, you can put a clean one on more than once a day.

A very recent study showed after three months antibodies to COVID-19 drop to zero, and study outcome is predicting you can catch it again after about 4-5 months. Sort of like a cold.

So stay safe, be smarter than the Loyal Lemmings and wear your mask religiously.

both Quinine (it is in Quinine Water) and Quercetin, which is on every health food store shelf, act as Zinc Ionophore [sic]

If you think tonic water has pharmacologically meaningful amounts of of quinine, you’re even more distanced from reality than your diligent efforts to date have demonstrated.

@Narad

Quinine water is the only form of over-the-counter quinine available, the FDA banned selling it OTC back in 1994. And I never said you did not have to drink enough quinine water to sink the Titanic. Only that it is a Zinc Ionophore, and is in quinine water.

I merely said Quinine (quinine water). You can get Quinine as a prescription but the FDA wants you to have Malaria first.

Though quinine water can help if you have high blood sugars, it will drop your blood sugar, so diabetics should not drink quinine water.

That is a letter to the editor that employs some mighty fine cherry picking, not a an actual paper of a study. The first hint are the first two words: “Dear Sir.”

It is a letter with some data. It is another observational study. This time we are given no information about the population make up for each group. So we are left in the dark.

What we can see is that once the model was adjusted for potential confounders, in hospital mortality was mostly not significant (only HCQ + Azithromycin remains significant and only for the combined group). This does rather suggest that, like the Henry Ford study, the individuals given HCQ were different to those not given the drug. I note that the authors state that cardio-vascular disease was more prevalent in the controls than treated. What we are not told is whether the presence of cardio-vascular disease was a factor in deciding not to treat the controls. It could well be.

If anyone finds Nirvana by watching paint dry, then tomorrow should be a ‘hop’ of a piece of ‘test article’ that nerds have estimated to be 100 tons dry weight. The little block on top (mass simulator) is known to be twenty tons. The motor is a hot mess…ehemm… revolutionary in that it is ‘full flow staged combustion’ and it burns methane. That is one Raptor. The booster bad boy ‘Falcon Super Heavy’ is purported to have 31-33 of those.

If someone tries to follow the chat, ‘Kaarls’ are the guys on the manlifts, ‘Raalphs’ are the wanna be Kaarls on the ground that are afraid of heights, ‘Caspeers’ are the guys inside the shell that are seldom seen, ‘Scotties’ are the guys welding I-beams together, and, and, I don’t remember what ‘Edwaards’ are; The guys driving the cryo delivery that have trouble backing up into place??

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFwMITSkc1Fms6PoJoh1OUQ/live

Not, Not, Not, (maybe later today). Of note is that the motor is not central but offset as the web is designed for three motors in a triangle around the axis — this should lead to a sort of ‘power slide’ off the launch platform and a hovering with it tilted about 5 degrees. Disconcerting.

This link should always have the ‘live’ as the previous one is only good every 10 hours (YR thing).
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFwMITSkc1Fms6PoJoh1OUQ

The motor is not on fire, that’s just the stuff leaking out of it:

It is false and defamatory that Caspeer taped a bunch of plaquenil tablets to it — “on purpose”.

@ Julian Frost

First of all, no one knows how many people actually die from the Flu each year, it is not a reportable disease and the CDC just makes up a number from thin air.

Second, the flu vaccine each year always winds up not being the one that actually occurs.

Third, less than 40% of Americans actually get a flu shot, and in the older adult over 60 the antibody production result is so poor, the CDC would like to double the dosage. Except that would massively increase the negative side-effect rate, and thus likely influence away more people into NOT getting a flu shot.

Fourth, quite a few people who each year are hospitalized by the flu. However, I worked in hospitals for decades as a Respiratory Therapist running the ventilators in the ICU, CC, and ER…. And only remember less than five people ever dying from the flu and it’s complications.

The Flu has a 0.01% death rate, and that is with the CDC made up numbers which are completely erroneous IMHO.

@Aelxa Hill:

…the CDC just makes up a number from thin air.

Citation needed.

…the flu vaccine each year always winds up not being the one that actually occurs.

Always? Citation not needed as this is demonstrably false.

The Flu has a 0.01% death rate…

Citation DEFINITELY needed.

“I worked in hospitals for decades as a Respiratory Therapist running the ventilators in the ICU, CC, and ER…. And only remember less than five people ever dying from the flu and it’s complications”

I’ve worked in hospitals for decades, and can’t recall a single case of someone being hospitalized for flu vaccine complications.

@ Dangerous Bacon

“I’ve worked in hospitals for decades, and can’t recall a single case of someone being hospitalized for flu vaccine complications.”

I spent my life hovering around hospitals for decades and seen doctors getting a few things quite wrong. Mostly controversial differential diagnosis where they, out of principle, did not take all the available elements into account. (In fact, I had the extra elements available at the time but also failed to recognize them when asked, which would likely have not changed the diagnosis anyway). Stuff like panic attacks on someone I knew which were a bit trickier than “just” panic attacks, but I know it’s rough to acknowledge some iatrogenic aspects when they officially do not exist… And even if they had been officially acknowledged at the time (seems that they are a bit more acknowledged nowadays), I still do not understand how an ER doctor could, in practice, in real life, make such a differential diagnosis on the spot.

@Aelxa: “the CDC just makes up a number from thin air.”

How CDC estimates flu deaths is clearly described on the CDC website. https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/how-cdc-estimates.htm

“Laboratory-confirmed influenza-associated hospitalization rates are obtained from the Influenza Hospitalization Surveillance Network (FluSurv-NET), a collaboration … in 13 geographically distributed areas in the United States … The network includes hospitals that serve roughly 9% of the U.S. population. The reported numbers of hospitalizations are used to calculate hospitalization rates … ”

You’re right that in some years the vaccine is more effective than in others. If only we could know in advance. Sadly, we have to make do with the best efforts that the best experts can make. That said, reducing overall flu mortality by around 50% (approximate CDC estimates of how well influenza vaccine works) saves tens of thousands of lives each year.

You’re also right that the number of adults who get the flu shot each year is disappointingly low. Part of the reason is misinformation about how serious influenza can be.

@F68.10

You are trying to be harassing, aren’t you?

A parent brings in a kid they think has appendicitis and we place “possible Appendicitis” on the chart and then run bloodtests, physical exams, etc on them to r/o (rule out) the possible diagnosis of Appendicitis.

Even then there might be an infection in the abdomen, that is not known when they operate, which they may find it was not the Appendix that was the problem at all, but another organ in it’s vicinity. Appendicitis is not confirmed until the surgeon visualizes (looks directly at) the organ and then decides to remove it. The removed organ the goes to the lab to be examined, and confirmed once again that the Appendix was diseased and the source of the problem.

Hence the usage of “possible Appendicitis” on there chart. Everything is “possible” until it is confirmed.

It is obvious you have no knowledge of Medical Terminology or Medicine, and are nitpicking because it does not fit your common everyday word usage.

The language in Medicine may be using the same words, but the meaning is a bit altered.

@ Aelxa Hill

“You are trying to be harassing, aren’t you?”

Me? No… I just see so many things wrong in your mindframe that it’s likely I won’t give you a free pass anytime soon. And it just so happens that I’m pretty much interested in the specific question I raised.

“A parent brings in a kid they think has appendicitis and we place “possible Appendicitis” on the chart and then run bloodtests, physical exams, etc on them to r/o (rule out) the possible diagnosis of Appendicitis.”

So you try to “rule out”… So, in essence, a Parent is a bit like the Church claiming the Sun orbits the Earth, and you are Galileo trying to rule it out. In essence, the Parent’s claim is the default position. And you are trying to “rule it out”.

That’s a bit frightening to my taste, but heh, what do I know? I’m just the kid…

“Even then there might be an infection in the abdomen, that is not known when they operate, which they may find it was not the Appendix that was the problem at all, but another organ in it’s vicinity.”

Sad that you did not mention that it might be… nothing at all.

“Appendicitis is not confirmed until the surgeon visualizes (looks directly at) the organ and then decides to remove it. The removed organ the goes to the lab to be examined, and confirmed once again that the Appendix was diseased and the source of the problem.”

And do you get a slap on the hand if the appendix turns out not to be diseased?

“Hence the usage of “possible Appendicitis” on there chart. Everything is “possible” until it is confirmed.”

Until after the appendix has been removed, that is… Or other invasive procedures performed. That’s what “possible” means, in essence: Act Now, Think Later.

“It is obvious you have no knowledge of Medical Terminology or Medicine, and are nitpicking because it does not fit your common everyday word usage.”

Yeah right. Maybe you should look at whether my ‘nym is in the ICD-10 classification or not, little snotty prick.

“The language in Medicine may be using the same words, but the meaning is a bit altered.”

And I meant something very specific in my very own personal jargon when calling a little snotty prick.

@ F68.10:

Although you are highly entertaining, I doubt that you can get through to her. Although your insults are quite apt.
.
She knows better than the CDC, NHS and WHO. And Orac himself..

first page, CDC Covid-19 page ‘”Influenza and Covid are respiratory diseases caused by different viruses”
first page NHS professionals – a respiratory illness
similar WHO page on Covid

AND the name itself includes “SARS” which stands for ….WHAT?
Why would it be called a SARS 2 ? What does ‘RS’ designate?

I can’t argue with someone like that .It’s hopeless. Just send her to Orac’s posts for instruction. If anyone could…

@Denice Walter

In the beginning the disease was called the same name as the virus that caused the disease, SARS-CoV-2 (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Corona Virus #2). The first SARS (Sudden Acute Respiratory Syndrome) was a 2003 epidemic which swiftly disappeared.

The WHO named the disease SARS-CoV-2 virus caused COVID-19 (COrona VIrus Disease-2019) in order to distinguish it from the SARS disease which occurred in 2003.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/lab/grows-virus-cell-culture.html

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/disease-caused-by-the-novel-coronavirus-officially-has-a-name-covid-19/

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/technical-guidance/naming-the-coronavirus-disease-(covid-2019)-and-the-virus-that-causes-it

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30484-9/fulltext

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2319417020300445

In the beginning even physicians were often confusing SARS with SARS-CoV-2, a disease epidemic that occurred in 2003 and was swiftly disappeared because it was so fatal. The symptoms were similar in the beginning, a Respiratory problem that swiftly killed the patient in 2003. A patient with SARS got sick so fast they had no real chance to pass the virus on before the patient died, and the SARS stayed in the lungs, a sign of a true Respiratory disease and SARS viral structure was unable to exist outside the lungs, so had no chance to cause the vascular and organ damage the SARS-CoV-2 virus causes……

https://www.cdc.gov/sars/index.html

Although they are finding bone problems occurring 15 years after patients were infected with SARS, bone necrosis which is bone dying and putrifying. Which makes me wonder about the claim SARS is purely a lung disease, it may be like TAB where TAB patients can develop TAB in their bones ……..

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41413-020-0084-5

But now we know COVID-19 is not a Respiratory Disease, it is a vascular disease…..

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/26/from-nose-to-toe-covid19-virus-attacks-like-no-other-respiratory-infection/

https://hms.harvard.edu/news/distinctive-features

https://vascularcures.org/2020/06/11/is-covid-19-a-blood-vessel-disease/

https://vascularnews.com/new-study-shows-covid-19-causes-blood-vessel-damage/

Even with giving patients huge amounts of anticoagulants, patients are having severe clotting due to the virus aggressively attaching to ACE2 receptors that exist inside all blood vessels in the body, multiplying inside blood vessel cells…….

https://news.yale.edu/2020/06/30/yale-ids-test-detect-blood-vessel-injury-predict-survival-covid-19

Perhaps if you read all the links you will be become better educated about current COVID-19.

Here are two non-medical links that help explain it well for everyday non-medical persons…..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/elemental.medium.com/amp/p/2c4032481ab2

http://www.bioquicknews.com/node/5417

And no, you can not argue with me about it.

We simply thought we were dealing with a Respiratory disease in the beginning back,in February 2020. however it swiftly developed that we were not dealing with a Respiratory disease at all, like SARS was.

The structure of the SARS-CoV-19 virus is so different it becomes a systemic disease that only uses the lungs to access the body’s blood vessel system.

Your knowledge of COVID-19 is old knowledge that is way outdated, every week brings new discoverys about what this virus is doing inside the body.

Unless you belong to Healio.com or Medscape.com, and check in with new publications and papers at Lancet and other professional medical journals weekly or almost daily, your medical information will be outdated.

And you need to look at the new CDC, WHO, British NHS, Harvard Medical School, etc releases, not the old stuff you are referring to as a source of COVID-19 information. Look at the dates when the webpage was posted,
and search for new COVID-19 info from June and July 2020…..

This is a completely new virus which was thought to be Respiratory virus back in February 2020, in August 2020 we have now known for months that it is Vascular not Respiratory.

And I am sure ORAC knows this, too. Every physician has known for quite a while that it has gone vascular and killing people via causing hyperclotting and organ damage body wide.

Everyone in Medicine referred to it as a Respiratory disease in the beginning, now the new medical papers are all about it being a Vascular disease.

This is a new novel virus never seen in humans before, and we are working at hyperspeed trying to deal with it and trying all sorts of medications and med combos to help people survive.

Studies are going on with all sorts of medications, they are still trying to use Hydroxychloroquine in various medication combinations, though I think Hydroxychloroquine is a dead end and too dangerous to use in these patients.

The antivirals and now drugs that affect IL-6, since IL -6 initiates the Cytokine Storm that kills patients, are being used

Try to be more accepting of new information on COVID-19.

Of course, you can keep arguing and calling names if you want, but it is foolish to cling to outdated medical information and disease names. F68.10 just hates anyone who works in Medicine, he has a problem and I understand his attitude. I spend over two decades suffering before I found physicians who would treat me for Fibromyalgia and not refer me to a psychiatrist instead.

Now they finally have a bloodtest for FM, and more and more physicians are realizing it is a real disease, and not an imaginary disease that exists only in the patient’s head.

The disease we are dealing with is called COVID-19, and we are now unlikely to change that name at this point in time, but COVID-19 meant COronaVIrus Disease-2019 anyway, the word “Respiratory” is not in the name.

@Denice Walter

Wikipedia is filled with inaccurate and sometimes outright false information.

I stay with using medical websites. Not an “encyclopedia” that anyone can write an article and have it accepted on. Wikipedia is no reference at all to be using for anything. Wikipedia is a joke.

@Aelxa Hill:

Not an “encyclopedia” that anyone can write an article and have it accepted on.

If that’s what you believe about Wikipedia, then you are really clueless. Wikipedia is a lot more reliable than it once was. In addition, there are resources at the bottom if you want to do more research.
There is thorough fact-checking now. In fact, a Reddit user “lesbianbrachiosaurus” tried to hoax Wikipedia. She was unable to get away with it. Details:
https://www.reddit.com/r/tumblr/comments/dpm9k2/wikipedia/

@ Aelxa Hill

“the SARS stayed in the lungs, a sign of a true Respiratory disease”

And Ebola stays in the eyes. A sign of a true ocular problems.

What a bunch of bollocks you are writing…

“Unless you belong to Healio.com or Medscape.com, and check in with new publications and papers at Lancet and other professional medical journals weekly or almost daily, your medical information will be outdated.”

For sure. No one knows anything except Your Majesty.

“F68.10 just hates anyone who works in Medicine, he has a problem and I understand his attitude.”

You just have no clue.

I hate people working in Medicine who feel entitled to believe they can force — brutally — other people to think the same way they do. I positively loathe people instrumentalising science to this end. And whenever I see someone like that, I desecrate his authority with utmost joy. Just happened overnight on another blog. Gives my life meaning.

@Julian Frost

“Wikipedia is alot more reliable than it once was.”

Alot more reliable is not reliable. The day Wikipedia is used as a reference in a medical paper or study will be the day I rely on Wikipedia.

I note again just nitpicking because I do not use an unreliable source called Wikipedia, and no actual discourse on the actual medical links I provided.

@ Aelxa Hill

“Alot more reliable is not reliable. The day Wikipedia is used as a reference in a medical paper or study will be the day I rely on Wikipedia.”

Citing an encyclopedia, whether Britannica or Wikipedia — doesn’t matter which — is generally considered bad practice.

So your criterion applies uniformly to any encyclopedia… We should therefore thrash them all…

Well, we’re still giving HCQ/AZT/Zinc/now Vitamin D to all inpatients with a positive test. I asked the committee why and got the “Don’t ask” answer.

Why does it have to be HCQ??* Apparently, there are other ‘zinc ionophores’ with Q in the name that can be bought over the counter.

And, indeed, I have always heard that zinc was a viral inhibitor — change my mind.

*because Dumbp, of course.

Besides Rumpy, Hydroxychloroquine is a prescription medicine than makes drug companies money.

Drug companies are always looking for new markets for their drugs, the more people use them……just follow the money.

They even come up with new “diseases” and “disorders” in order to sell more drugs, and alot of them are new “psychiatric” conditions in many cases.

Natural substances are not allowed to claim a use to treat any disease per the FDA. Even though things like Scurvy is cured by Vitamin C , and Beri Beri is cured with Thiamine.

Right, Alexa, because you totally can’t buy Vitamin C over the counter at every drug store. Or buy it in its unprocessed form at every grocery store and fast food chain in America.

I mean, that’s just a stupid lie. The FDA doesn’t set treatment protocols.

@ Aelxa Hill:

You come here proclaiming ex Cathedra as if no one else knows anything or reads anything or has studied anything .You have no idea about my background or anyone else’s. Especially F68.10 or Bacon. Several people here have backgrounds in statistical analysis and research design, MDs and PhDs.

You state that Covid-19 “IS NOT A RESPIRATORY DISEASE ” more than once, in slightly different ways. Show me one medical source that says that Covid 19 is NOT a respiratory disease. SHOW me one. Everyone knows about its effects on blood vessels. OLD NEWS. Show me SB sources that say what you do: “it’s NOT RESPIRATORY”. .

I cite those particular sources because even the most simple, easiest to access sources do not say what you say They are not old sources but the basic ones used to inform the general public and professionals. Show me sources that say it’s not a respiratory disease.

Wikipedia happens to be a project being transformed by information from sceptics like our host using SBM. Therefore it is well known to people like him and me. It is suspicious to people like you who have your own slant on reality. Julian Is correct: also alt med providers who try to change their bios can not do so because they are not fact based with reliable outside sources despite hiring people to sing their praises. Wikipedia is updated via internal argumentation amongst contributors / editors backed by SB sources, sometimes on a daily basis.

If you are wrong with simple things, your other material cannot be trusted : you display opinion, contrarianism and grandstanding. You cite inside information about doctors that you can’t show evidence for and make other outrageous claims ( concerning the great value the earlier vaccines in contrast to newer ones) similarly without data. You play games with language.
I’M DONE WITH YOU.. Harass someone else who enjoys arguing about inconsequential nonsense. .

Why is often anti-vaxers who post several posts, more or less at the same time? Often in the list of comments I see a whole row of comments by:
Aelxa Hill
Nathalie White
or
Christine Kincaid

@ Renate:

Because they want to be noticed?

Actually, I think that RI attracts contrarians because Orac is so well known for SBM and they unrealistically believe that they can come here and demonstrate their superiority to him BUT since he usually doesn’t bother to argue with them, they then focus on regulars whom they wish to shoot down as a substitute for him.

To be truthful, they frequently use the same methods that woo-meisters/ anti-vaxxers do ( as you know only too well ) :they distort or exaggerate results, they twist word meanings, cherry pick, rely upon anecdotes, appeal to outrage or drama and report personal opinion as though it were fact and throw in some facts alongside their beliefs as if to validate them. . They demonstrate these tendencies clearly for students of scepticism: their only useful function

Recent research about anti-vaxxers illustrates their need to be outsiders, to reject consensus, to be ahead of the game: brave mavericks all. To them , there is no expertise in any subject or any authority so someone like Orac ( or one of his followers) enrages them and leads them into hissy fit territory.

Pro tip: if you think you’re the next Galileo, chances are you’re not.

.

I mean, I do that too sometimes, when I finally have a chance to read and comment, I’ll put in several different comments (responding to different people) at once. But I don’t think I’ve ever made as many comments as those three (thank goodness).

@ Aelxa Hill @ Denice Walter

“Harass someone else who enjoys arguing about inconsequential nonsense. .”

Me! Me! Me! I’m here!

I know!
And you can be truly excellent arguing about the inconsequential as well as about the meaningful. I have other issues of greater concern than trolls..

-btw- IF ONLY I were more fluent so that I could fully appreciate your contributions in your native tongue-. although I can sometimes comprehend quite a bit.

If you are wrong with simple things, your other material cannot be trusted : you display opinion, contrarianism and grandstanding.

I am just waiting for Aelxa Hill to mathsplain percentages to me again. I need another good laugh.

But yes, playing whack-a-mole over inconsequential claims is time-wasting. I often do the demolish one key argument and leave the trivia alone. Aelxa has a much over-inflated view of her own expertise. A large number of inconvenient facts ain’t going to change that.

@Just Tech

I did not say you can not buy Vitamin C over the counter, I wrote you can not use it to treat a disease……..

https://www.fda.gov/food/food-labeling-nutrition/label-claims-conventional-foods-and-dietary-supplements

If you go down to the section titled “Structure/ Function Claims and Related Dietary Supplement Claims” you will find that Labels must carry a disclaimer which must state the dietary supplement is not intended to “diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease” because only drugs can legally make such a claim.

So when it comes to vitamins, yes the FDA can set treatment protocols when it concerns vitamins and nutrients.

Although it so known that certain vitamins, or nutrient levels are very low in bloodtests of people suffering with COVID -19, you can not claim taking Zinc or Vitamin D will treat the patient’s condition .

Even though they are using Zinc and Vitamin D in hospitals and studies on these COVID-19 patients, giving these nutrients is not treating them for COVID-19.

Though they know from testing that people with COVID-19 who suffer no or little symptoms have good Zinc and Vitamin D levels, vitamins are not allowed to have a drug claim on them. Otherwise you would need a prescription to buy them.

In many other countries vitamins are prescription items, in the USA they are not.

I did not say you can not buy Vitamin C over the counter, I wrote you can not use it to treat a disease……..

“Root hog or die” seems applicable.

@ Aelxa Hill

“I did not say you can not buy Vitamin C over the counter, I wrote you can not use it to treat a disease……..”

Are you telling me that you do not treat people with scurvy in the US?

“If you go down to the section titled “Structure/ Function Claims and Related Dietary Supplement Claims” you will find that Labels must carry a disclaimer which must state the dietary supplement is not intended to “diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease” because only drugs can legally make such a claim.”

Which is just perfect. These supplements should not be allowed to have these mentions. In fact, I started twitching in my chair years and years ago when probiotic yoghourts where playing the health card in TV ads. Slim women with happy tummies ecstatically… swallowing… a yoghurt… It already was obvious that they were essentially fooling the public for commercial gain. This trend really should be pulled to a halt. Food is for pleasure, company, friends, taste. Not health. Eating badly is obviously bad, but any health claim for any kind of diet seems to me completely excessive, and should not be on commercialisable items. Such as supplements.

“Although it so known that certain vitamins, or nutrient levels are very low in bloodtests of people suffering with COVID -19, you can not claim taking Zinc or Vitamin D will treat the patient’s condition.”

Yeah. And I do not see why you should. As long as you do not overdose your patient on vitamin D, I do not care much if it is reasonably given to a patient (with his consent…). But claiming that this is “treating” a patient? No way. No. Way.

“Even though they are using Zinc and Vitamin D in hospitals and studies on these COVID-19 patients, giving these nutrients is not treating them for COVID-19.”

What’s your issue with that?

“Though they know from testing that people with COVID-19 who suffer no or little symptoms have good Zinc and Vitamin D levels, vitamins are not allowed to have a drug claim on them.”

Look. Claiming that you can cure a disease by playing on the four humours or four temperaments is not how we should be doing things in this day and age. It is not because asymptomatic patients have this and that level of this or that that you can expect some notion of “equilibrium” to be applicable to treatment of sick patients.

“Otherwise you would need a prescription to buy them.”

Is that a claim of a conspiracy by Big Pharma? Looks like it…

“In many other countries vitamins are prescription items, in the USA they are not.”

Well… not in France either. That link is pretty explicit on the matter. Now, give me a country where they are prescription items, according to you.

“Alcohol can cause brain damage, Wernicke’s encephalopathy and Alcoholic Korsakoff syndrome”

You forgot to mention thiamine for that.. It works a treat to prevent it. No, yer doctor probably won’t mention it.

sb “mom had a dream“, dammit; quite a lot of them, actually. How much js must pass to see this critique?… I am trying.

“Wikipedia is no reference at all to be using for anything. Wikipedia is a joke.”

The medically/scientifically uninformed frequently denounce sources like Wikipedia and Snopes. I’ve yet to see the scoffers specifically refute any of their articles.

Such sites are not perfect, but they typically provide numerous references to quality journal articles and other reliable sources, which is a lot more than you can say for their woo-befuddled critics.

As you can imagine, “someone we know” and other sceptics are providing SBM/ research information to expand medical topics and critique alt med on Wikipedia incorporating material from Quackwatch, RI, SBM and SB journals..

Interestingly, most of the objections I hear come from quacks whose MOs/ faux degrees/ businesses are examined in detail. And although my connection to WP is indirect, I can ascertain that quacks have their own representatives ( often paid) and reality-based contributors have to repeatedly fight them off with evidence based sources despite the quacks’ relentless efforts to push woo and PR. Thus, they have no love for WP.
“Talk” pages about various topics are public and may be viewed easily.

Now, it’s been a long time since I’ve had a car, but I’ve yet to see vanity plates that list one’s “supposed credentials: M.D., J.D. and Ph.D” as reported here.

Debating whether I should spend $40 on a book detailing use of homeopathy to treat plant ailments.

https://www.amazon.com/Homeopathy-Plants-revised-Christiane-Maute/dp/3955822133

Fire blight on your fruit trees? Slug damage? House plants sulking after repotting? Homeopathy is good for what ails them.

Since homeopathic meds for humans are commonly extreme dilutions of phytochemicals, I wonder if corresponding drugs for plants involve a 30C dilution of Homo sapiens.

I often put water on plants to help them grow. You don’t need to spend $40.

The sugar pills on the other hand are useless unless you can get enough of them to suck the water out of slugs..

That contains Hard Water. God damn,are you that INSENSITIVE?? It has been known to cause constipation… It is a human right to blow it out like a champ.

Oh, yay, oleander in a Petri dish (PDF).

Thus, considering the beneficial anti-inflammatory activity of Nerium oleander extracts combined with the suggestion that oleandrin might protect against neurological deficits, Phoenix Biotechnology, Inc.(San Antonio,TX) has developed an extract for sublingual administration that it will quickly explore for efficacy in appropriate in vivo studies.

Additional studies are needed to define the mechanism of oleandrin’s antiviral activity.

Horse, cart, whatever.

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