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Alec Baldwin lets his antivaccine freak flag fly by interviewing RFK Jr.

Yesterday, celebrity Alec Baldwin let his antivaccine freak flag fly by interviewing antivaccine activist Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. on Instagram Live, spreading disinformation about vaccines and COVID-19.

Science, pseudoscience, misinformation, and disinformation about COVID-19 have been dominating the topics of this blog for such a long time that it’s seeming like an increasingly long time since I’ve written much about the topics that used to be the main drivers of this blog; e.g., antivaccine misinformation, cancer quackery, science denial, and just plain science. Unfortunately, the COVID-19 pandemic has resulted in so much pseudoscience, misinformation, and disinformation that is even more direct a threat to public health than the antivaccine movement that I’ve largely been concentrating on it since March, with relatively few posts that are “purely” about other topics. Examples include conspiracy theories that SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, was created in a lab, that 5G networks and/or influenza vaccines increase susceptibility to COVID-19, that masks don’t work to slow the spread of COVID-19 (they do), that COVID-19 is far less deadly than health authorities have estimated, that hydroxychloroquine is a cure for coronavirus, and the like have dominated this blog for nearly five months. Also, to the big surprise of many but unsurprising to those of us who’ve been paying attention to the antivaccine movement for years, a confluence between the antivaccine movement and the antimask/COVID-19 denialist movement and the antivaccine movement, which brings us to Alec Baldwin and antivaccine activist and leader Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.:

In a public health development that one can safely characterize as “not great,” actor Alec Baldwin appeared on Instagram Live on Thursday with Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a formerly respected environmentalist who’s been best known in recent years for promoting severe vaccine misinformation. As Baldwin listened obligingly, Kennedy promoted a variety of wildly false claims about vaccine safety, and speculative concerns about the quarantine measures being taken to combat the COVID-19 pandemic in the United States. Baldwin’s Instagram account has 1.8 million followers, and the video, in less than two hours, garnered more than 43,000 views. This is not precisely what we need right now.

At the outset of their talk, Baldwin told Kennedy that he’s been watching Kennedy’s videos on vaccines for “years,” which is also, on its face, not great. Kennedy, an environmental lawyer and the son of assassinated U.S. senator Bobby Kennedy, spent years doing important work advocating for issues like water safety with the Waterkeeper Alliance and with the organization Riverkeeper. He and Baldwin have previously discussed fracking on WNYC.

Beginning in 2005, however, with the publication of a now-infamous story called “Deadly Immunity,” Kennedy began promoting “egregious” misinformation about vaccines, as science writer Seth Mnookin put it in one story outlining his long history of misleading claims.

Great. So Alec Baldwin appears to be the latest antivaccine (or at least antivaccine-sypmathetic or antivaccine-credulous) celebrity to have outed himself. Also, just as an aside, my deconstruction of Deadly Immunity was the very first post I ever wrote that went viral. Basically, RFK Jr.’s article, published simultaneously by Rolling Stone and Salon.com (to their eternal shame) is a huge conspiracy theory about how “they” (the CDC) “knew” that the mercury-containing preservative thimerosal used until 2002 in several childhood vaccines caused autism but covered up the evidence. Since then, RFK Jr. has been a full-on antivaccine conspiracy theorist who spreads misinformation and disinformation (and outright lies) about vaccines, his claims to be “fiercely pro-vaccine” notwithstanding. He’s even spread anti-MMR lies to places suffering from horrific measles outbreaks. Unfortunately, he’s often given mainstream, platforms by either antivaccine celebrities like Alec Baldwin or by hack journalists looking for “both sides” stories.

I wandered over to his Instagram feed and found this:

View this post on Instagram

This Thursday at 1pm, eastern

A post shared by Alec Baldwin (@alecbaldwininsta) on

Depressingly, right next to it, I found this:

View this post on Instagram

Talking with the great writer @kurtbandersen !!!

A post shared by Alec Baldwin (@alecbaldwininsta) on

Kurt Andersen has written one of the essential books that you should read. It was his last book, not the one he’s promoting now (which might be great too, but I haven’t read it yet). I’m referring to Fantasyland: How America Went Haywire: A 500-Year History, a book that goes back 500 years to show how nothing we’re experiencing now is new and how the “fake news” moment we’re all living through is actually the ultimate expression of our national character, amplified by social media and our current grifter-in-chief President. As Andersen pointed out, America was founded by wishful dreamers, magical thinkers, and true believers, by hucksters and their suckers, and fantasy is embedded in our nation’s DNA. So Baldwin will be going from interviewing the ultimate huckster and antivaccine grifter, basically the sort of person that Fantasyland is about, to interviewing Andersen.

Here’s the Instagram Live link:

And here’s a YouTube link:

I watched much of the video, but not the whole thing, as it was quite painful to watch. Amusingly, the first couple of minutes of the video are taken up with Baldwin and his wife trying to figure out how to get RFK Jr. to show up on the video feed. When RFK Jr. finally does show up, he’s sitting in what appears to be a library or his office, with lots of books, very likely included to give the impression to Baldwin and his viewers that he is a Very Serious Person and Not At All A Crank. I mean, look at all the books in his office! Countering that impression is the way that RFK Jr.’s camera isn’t straight, leaving the whole room appearing a bit askew. There’s a metaphor in there about Baldwin and RFK Jr. somewhere.

You have to endure a bit of annoying small talk and chit-chat before you get to the antivaccine disinformation. Particularly annoying is RFK Jr.’s claim that he was “dragged kicking and screaming” into his antivaccine activism. (Obviously, he didn’t call it that, but, let’s be honest, that’s what RFK Jr. does, promote antivaccine disinformation and pseudoscience.). It’s well-trod revisionist history that RFK Jr.’s been repeating over and over whenever interviewed and asked about how he first got involved in his activism. Depressingly, once again, it shows how easy it is for an environmentalist who once did good work can apply principles of environmental science incorrectly to other areas where they have no expertise. As a reminder, to hear RFK Jr. tell it to Alec Baldwin, as a result of RFK Jr.’s activism over mercury in the water and the environment (good), women who believed that thimerosal in vaccines had caused their child’s autism started showing up at his speeches and approaching him, and that’s how he got interested in the situation.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is very strong in RFK Jr., too, as he went on from this story to start bragging about how, even though he’s not a scientist, he’s very “comfortable” reading scientific studies and is very good at it. Obviously, that’s not true, given his history. What RFK Jr. has long done is to cherry pick studies, ignore disconfirming studies, and spin studies to say things that they don’t really say (or at last to ignore high levels of uncertainty). In any event, this first segment is a virtual “greatest hits” of antivaccine tropes about mercury, as Anna Merlan notes:

During the conversation with Baldwin, Kennedy repeated several of his greatest hits, including claiming that vaccines historically contained unsafe levels of mercury, and that the flu shot is still full of mercury. (The respected physician and vaccine researcher Paul Offitt is one of dozens of people who have outlined that Kennedy is conflating two kinds of mercury. Ethylmercury is what the body produces when it metabolizes thimerosal, a preservative used in some vaccines, and leaves the body quickly. It is quite, quite different from methylmercury, which can be toxic to human beings at high levels of exposure.) Kennedy rejects the difference between the different kinds of mercury, and told Baldwin, “There’s no good kind of mercury.” 

Kennedy rejects a lot of science about vaccines. He also seems oblivious to the fact that mercury was removed from childhood vaccines more than 18 years ago. That’s a natural experiment. If thimerosal really did cause autism, you’d expect that, long before now, autism prevalence would have declined markedly. After all, a child born in 2002, the year the last childhood vaccines containing thimerosal expired, would be turning 18 this year. Basically, the idea that thimerosal in vaccines caused the “autism epidemic” is a long-failed hypothesis. Of course, RFK Jr. has implicitly admitted that by his behavior, removing the word “mercury” from his antivaccine group and renaming it Children’s Health Defense.

Basically, this interview is a Gish Gallop of antivaccine disinformation, with Baldwin serving as the friendly interviewer, with no challenge to any of the pseudoscience, misinformation, and disinformation being spewed by RFK Jr. This is also sometimes known as “firehosing.” It’s a technique that seeks to overwhelm with the volume of misinformation. So many studies (often obscure), claims, and facts are thrown at the viewer/listener that it’s impossible even to focus on one enough to refute it (or at least question it) before the next—and the next and the next and the next—are thrown out. As Steve Novella notes, there are two kinds of firehosers. The first is relatively innocent and is just repeating misinformation and disinformation that he’s heard or read on social media. The second is intentional, and designed to make a response or rebuttal very difficult or impossible. (Guess which category I think that RFK Jr. falls under?) Listen to Steve:

At this end the firehoser knows what they are doing. They are not intellectually lazy, they are intellectually dishonest. They know they are spouting falsehoods, or are indifferent to their truth status. The purpose of their communication is not to persuade, but to confuse and befuddle, even to distract. Go ahead, deal with all these lies. I can pile them on endlessly. While you’re busy doing that, I will make my emotional and ideological appeals. I will build a compelling narrative, and you will lose before you even realize you are playing the wrong game.

In fairness, you could argue that true believers aren’t lying and that maybe RFK Jr. isn’t lying. Maybe he believes the BS that he’s spewing in such copious quantities, such as the claim that vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe”:

Kennedy went on to claim that vaccines are “unavoidably unsafe,” a common canard in the anti-vax movement. (The law professor and vaccine policy expert Dorit Reiss has written about how vaccine skeptics frequently misconstrue what that term means; “Unavoidably unsafe” products are products that are so valuable—that have so many benefits—that the risk associated with their use is justified.”) He also claimed that vaccines “are the only medical product that aren’t safety tested,” which is an outrageous lie. Vaccines are among the most tested medical products on the planet, and are tested in thousands of volunteers before being licensed.

I’ve written about this as well.

Baldwin also nods and basically agrees with RFK Jr. when he lies about the Vaccine Court, repeating common antivaccine talking points lies about the court.

Of course, RFK Jr.’s antivaccine lies are bad enough, but what’s really dangerous in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic are RFK Jr.’s lies about the pandemic.

Finally, and most worryingly, Baldwin and Kennedy turned to COVID-19, which Kennedy used as an opportunity to promote dubious claims about quarantine measures and even mask-wearing. “One thing I think we’re not thinking about is what is the death toll from the quarantine,” Kennedy said. He claimed that previous studies from the 1980s have shown that unemployment leads to suicide and “additional admissions to mental institutions.”

“The death toll from quarantine could far exceed the death toll from COVID,” Kennedy proclaimed. (The coronavirus pandemic has killed more than 700,000 people worldwide and quarantine measures have been used in virtually every country that’s gotten the pandemic under control.)

In one particularly egregious bit of disinformation, RFK Jr. dismisses the possibility of a COVID-19 vaccine as a way out of the pandemic. This is the sort of disinformation that’s effective because it has a germ of truth in it. There are legitimate scientists (e.g., Peter Hotez) cautioning that a coronavirus vaccine is not a panacea and that, even if developed, it will take many months to manufacture and distribute. But to dismiss even the possibility of a vaccine as a way to mitigate the pandemic is irresponsible at best, dangerous at worst, particularly given how RFK Jr. pivoted next. Can you guess?

Yes, RFK Jr. thinks hydroxychloroquine is a promising treatment for COVID-19, even though evidence is increasingly showing that it is not. As I just wrote last week, hydroxychloroquine is the Black Knight of COVID-19 treatments. No matter how many times science chops a limb off, Sir Hydroxychloroquine says, “It’s just a scratch” or challenges science to keep fighting. Basically, RFK Jr. frames his support of the drug to Baldwin as “I don’t know if it works or not, but it wasn’t given a chance,” after having cited the same observational studies (and ignored the negative randomized controlled trials) and bringing up the SurgiSphere study, whose discrediting actually does not in the least affect the conclusion that hydroxychloroquine is almost certainly ineffective against COVID-19.

RFK Jr. also says that he’s taking vitamin C and vitamin D to “boost his immune system” and prevent COVID-19, even though there’s no evidence that either vitamin can do that. He’s also taking interferon, which has been studied as a potential immune therapy for COVID-19. Given that interferon is given by injection, one wonders where RFK Jr. gets it.

By the time I was through with the video, I was left with nothing but disgust for Alec Baldwin. Basically, he gave an hour of his Instagram Live time to a prominent antivaccine conspiracy theorist and let him firehose misinformation to his heart’s content. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised that Alec Baldwin is antivaccine. (There’s no way you do this credulous and fawning an interview with someone like RFK Jr. if you are not antivaccine.) Apparently, besides his anger management issues, he’s into conspiracy theories, for example JFK assassination conspiracy theories, and antivaccine beliefs are, if nothing else, rooted in conspiracy theories. Indeed, the central conspiracy theory of the antivaccine movement is that “they” (the CDC, the government, doctors, etc.) “know” that vaccines are ineffective and dangerous but “cover up” the evidence showing it.

I was also disappointed to learn that Kurt Andersen in that he co-authored a book with Alec Baldwin entitled You Can’t Spell America Without Me: The Really Tremendous Inside Story of My Fantastic First Year as President Donald J. Trump (A So-Called Parody). It made me wonder if Andersen knew that Baldwin was antivaccine when he co-wrote the book. Perhaps Andersen should consider withdrawing from his Instagram Live interview with Baldwin next Thursday. Either that, or he should contemplate long and hard how Baldwin is exactly the sort of conspiracy theorist and fabulist spreading dangerous misinformation and disinformation that he had written about in Fantasyland.

In the meantime, add Alec Baldwin to the depressingly long list of celebrity antivaxxers.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

371 replies on “Alec Baldwin lets his antivaccine freak flag fly by interviewing RFK Jr.”

Postscript: the frequent claim by antivaxers that the Supreme Court declared vaccines “unavoidably unsafe” is of course false. The Bruesewitz case is what they’re referring to, but the decision in that case never makes any such statement.

“In fairness, you could argue that true believers aren’t lying and that maybe RFK Jr. isn’t lying. Maybe he believes the BS that he’s spewing in such copious quantities”

For the most part I think RFK Jr. and his cohorts are conscious of lying but think they’re doing it in a good cause. They’ve convinced themselves that the pro-immunization position is founded on lies, so they feel justified in lying in return.

Agreed. The leaders of the AV cult for the most part do knew their pants are blazing but since they are fighting a holy war all tactics are fair.

As I wrote elsewhere: “It has been my experience that most of the vocal anti-vaxxers know they are lying. They rationalise it away in various ways, because to admit they were lying, they would have to accept that vaccines are effective and generally safe.”

Mostly they rationalise it from the back end. They believe vaccines are harmful and there is a massive conspiracy to hide the damage, therefore it is fine for them to tell as many lies about vaccines s they like.

well if u want to get the latest from a perth based …m.g.c.pharmaceuticals.. on the west coast in australia on their latest break thru’s in assocation with their overseas counterparts & in house covid 19 r&d in oz …suggest u will find very interesting info .. there ..cheers happy bob from oz..8

I’m sure it’s very comfortable to read studies if you don’t actually need to try and understand them, just look for the bits that support your beliefs.

I do think Kennedy really believes vaccines are bad. But I also think that at this point he showed clearly that he’s willing to lie in service of that belief. He shouldn’t be given a platform unless an interviewer is willing and able to call out lies. And likely not even then.

You are far more generous than I am. His AV activism gives a steady steam of extra cash and adoration so that is his gain from being a cult leader. And when he says things that there is no way he can possibly believe (like trying to push dismissed with prejudice as legal victories) that makes innocence on other issues much less plausible.

His youngest child was born in 2001, so it’s possible that he did fully vaccinate his children before he went totally anti-vax HOWEVER because his fabulous ** effort was in 2005, either he stopped vaccinating the younger ones then while defining “fully vaccinated” differently than most of us do or he frightened parents and discouraged vaccination whilst simultaneously protecting his own. Both ways are dishonest,

** in the original sense of the word

@Denice, He wouldn’t be alone in redefining the phrase. Christine long claimed her children were all fully vaccinated, to try and beef up her claims of “discovering the truth” and only after I pressed did she admit that her youngest hasn’t received any vaccines since he was three, which is a long way from “fully” vaccinated.

@ Terrie:

Oh, I know.
Woo-meisters and anti-vaxxers frequently re-define words to suit their needs or fail to recognise the meanings of but, and only, not only. Also words like “education”, “counselling”, “science”, “research”, “cognition”, “cognitive dissonance” as we have seen recently.in comments here and at woo sites.

But for most brilliant English phrase of the week, I nominate Narad:
re Bolen who ” lives in the woods like a bunny rabbit”:
I couldn’t stop laughing because I pictured it!.

Junior famously claims to be “fiercely pro-vaccine”. Given the veracity of this statement, I have no difficulty believing Junior has no qualms whatsoever about lying.

I do not understand your critique here, happy bob. She is kinda lawylery and knowledgeable about this stuff; And for that, she probably sux in some ways I have not recognized yet. But, I don’t yet; I’m very sorry ya’ll have gone back into harder, harder lockdown. L8r, M8; happy tim from… who am I kidding.

ps. could you post a video of huntsman spiders crawling on your beer or getting into yer daughters’ hair??? That wuld be sweet.

I recently watched the RFKjr/ Alan Dershowitz “debate” in which the former firehosed the latter in similar fashion. Even more dishonestly, the video included footage of the late Senator, RFK, to highlight jr’s hallowed lineage as a preamble to his appearance; although the debate was supposed to be purely about law, Robert barraged Dershowitz with a field artillery grade Gish Gallop about the “science” of vaccines: as a sample, the Whistleblower affair figured heavily in his attack as well as other mis-information ( no placebo lore) well-known to readers of RI. Of course, Mr Dershowitz was quite taken by surprise.

I imagine that most viewers of either video are likely to be believers of anti-vax nonsense because they were featured on anti-vax hangouts thus, sceptics like us should make sure that we continue to circulate anti-vaxxers’ common methods of distorting information and lying. I suppose I should be glad that RFK jr’s BS is no longer a fixture on television as most reality based outlets deny him access which he protests loudly. ( He used to be featured on popular news shows )

I was busy with other things when that debate hit the Internet and didn’t have time to watch it and deconstruct it. That’s probably a good thing, from your description. I’m sure it would have given me a headache.

My opinion of Baldwin just took a huge dive. Sounds like he should have dressed up in his SNL Trump wig, and done his Trump voice, to give this pseudoscience support the “gravitas” it truly deserves.

Baldwin is simply not a journalist, and it shows. He’s an actor. A journalist would have prepared for the interview, checked out Kennedy’s routine (he always delivers the same prepackaged lies in every appearance), and been ready to call them out with some pointed questions and factual sources refuting his claims. Instead, Baldwin just nodded and smiled–a celebrity sharing a fun chat with a fellow celebrity, both on the same team and out to have fun together. That’s not journalism.

There is a Supreme Court decision upholding mandatory vaccination. Lets use it to assure Covid-19 immunization when the vaccine becomes available.

Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court’s decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.

Thanks to this decision (among other things) smallpox was eliminated.

I would be very, very cautious assuming that Jacobson would cover a vaccine mandate for adults today, without an immediate emergency (which a disease going for, then, close to a year would not be). Maybe the courts will uphold it, but you cannot assume it.

Jacobson, you are right, stands for the idea that individual liberties are not absolute, but it stands for reasonable regulation in the name of public health. Whether the regulation would be reasonable would depend on the facts. I would point out that even during Jacobson there was not a universal adult mandate, and I am not sure a universal, all U.S. adult vaccine mandate for Covid-19 would pass muster today.

Excellent post overall, with one issue to expand: “RFK Jr. also says that he’s taking vitamin C and vitamin D to “boost his immune system” and prevent COVID-19, even though there’s no evidence that either vitamin can do that.”

Vitamin D is involved in the immune system. Even modest levels of deficiency are associated with subtle dysfunction. For example, people born and raised in northern latitudes are at greater risk for Multiple Sclerosis. The US DHS dietary guidelines (2005) recommend “Older adults, people with dark skin, and people exposed to insufficient ultraviolet band radiation (i.e., sunlight). Consume extra vitamin D from vitamin D-fortified foods and/or supplements.” RFKJr is 66 years old, and if he is spending a lot of time indoors, or if he limits his sun exposure to winters in Massachusetts, then taking a vitamin D supplement may be a reasonable measure for general health.

But there is no credible evidence I can find that this would prevent COVID-19. And Vitamin C supplements, for the prevention or treatment of infections, is a whole ‘nother chapter in the history of quackery.

@ David:

He lives in southern California. He married actress, Cheryl Hynes, a few years ago and bought a place in a posh enclave; he is supposed to be an active outdoorsman participating on falconry , rafting and other pursuits. .

Yeah, at one point the anti-vaxxers were raffling off a day of falconry with him. I thought about reporting this as cruelty to the falcon.

http://bchawkingclub.ca/styled/

Judging by what this website says, falconry requires extreme dedication and investment of time. What with his swanning about promoting epidemics, I don’t see how Junior’s version of falconry could be more than a pose. I expect he hires a keeper, and drops in once in a while to give the local wildlife the bird (as it were).
As a break from giving us the bird (as it were).

I know that’s off topic, but I had fun.

The ceiling beams suggest a basement. He could be sending the summer in MA, or just have the rare Malibu domicile with a basement. A place where he does not pick up stuff off the floor.

Seriously, if his youngest kid was born nineteen years ago I think he really was not involved in their visits to the pediatrician/family doctor. One of his many kids ended up with a developmental delay and he had to find something to blame. Apparently the thimerosal thing was trending, and he latched on to it.

Apparently he is one of those with a truly closed mind that cannot let go of an ideal, despite it being out of date for almost two whole decades. Bobby, Jr is a tool.

@ Chris:

“Why ‘id’?”

Because the unconscious mind – Freud’s Id- has a way of sneaking up on you like that
( not that I believe in an “unconscious mind” or an Id per se but that’s too much to discuss at present) BUT I had to say it!

At any rate, I saw a photo of his CA home a few years ago and it was faux English estate with half timbers/ stucco and all so that place- if he’s still there- may have a basement. I think it was 5 millions USD.
But if I were him, I’d only go to MA in the Summer because of various storm seasons.

He used to hang around here and I once was invited to an environmental charity event concerning the river at a Georgian manor house where he was being lauded but I didn’t go because I couldn’t tolerate seeing him in public without being about to counter his woo.

not that I believe in an “unconscious mind”

It’s utilitarian Fazzm. Introspection has to be placed somewhere. ¿Cómo se dice? Oh, yes — “unavoidably unsafe.”

“people born and raised in northern latitudes are at greater risk for Multiple Sclerosis”

Although not many people live there, and we’re obviously far less important than northerners, there is also a southern hemisphere 😉

@BillyJoe – No offense meant to the southern hemisphere. MS risk increases for people who lived prior to age 15, north of about 45 N latitude. There are many people who live that far north (most of Canada, UK, Scandinavia, other parts of northern Europe). But there aren’t many people in the southern hemisphere, south of 45 S. latitude.

Kurtzke, 1977, J Neurol v28;215(1):1-26.

Vitamin D indeed seems have an effect to immune system:
Evelyn Peelen, Stephanie Knippenberg, Anne-Hilde Muris, Mariëlle
Thewissen, Joost Smolders, Jan Willem Cohen Tervaert, Raymond
Hupperts, Jan Damoiseaux,
Effects of vitamin D on the peripheral adaptive immune system:
A review,
Autoimmunity Reviews,Volume 10, Issue 12,2011, Pages 733-743,
ISSN 1568-9972,
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.autrev.2011.05.002.
It seems actually to blunt it, and may be useful to prevent autoimmune diseases.
Of course, this must be proved first. An autoimmune disease really boosts immune
system, you know.

“He’s also taking interferon, which has been studied as a potential immune therapy for COVID-19. Given that interferon is given by injection, one wonders where RFK Jr. gets it.”

Or maybe, “Interferon” is another word for what he used to call “smack”. It would be the most logical explanation for his bat guano.

When RFK Jr. finally does show up, he’s sitting in what appears to be a library or his office, with lots of books, very likely included to give the impression to Baldwin and his viewers that he is a Very Serious Person and Not At All A Crank.

I agree strongly that RFK Jr. is a crank. I would add to this, however, that a person who is well-read and has a high opinion of their own ability to absorb what they read is exactly the kind of person who is most vulnerable to Dunning-Kruger. The books may all be his and he may read them; he’s just so well settled in his opinion that it doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks. He believes he’s above fault. I add this because I’ve met people who are talented, well-read and smart, even, who hold cranky opinions… mostly because they are talented, well-read, smart and have a self-opinion that reflects that. It’s hard to explain to someone that being all those things doesn’t also make them correct. Cognitive dissonance is truly remarkable.

When RFK Jr. finally does show up, he’s sitting in what appears to be a library or his office, with lots of books, very likely included to give the impression to Baldwin and his viewers that he is a Very Serious Person and Not At All A Crank. I mean, look at all the books in his office!

I swear these ‘insolence’ are getting more and more priceless by the day. Seriously Orac! — you are railing at the guy for posing with too many books! Ever thought he may have been in an actual library?! And if indeed RFKjr is not so innocent, I can just picture him now reading this blog, writing a cheque to a prop company, and laughing his ass off at how much he pissed you off. “Ha ha ha! Worth every penny!!’

Orac writes,

“In the meantime, add Alec Baldwin to the depressingly long list of celebrity antivaxxers.”

MJD says,

Thanks for cherry picking celebrities to give us a glimpse of said “long list.” Alec Baldwin was brilliant in the movie “Thomas and the Magic Railway!”

Alec Baldwin was brilliant in the movie “Thomas and the Magic Railway!”

Compared to Ringo Starr and George Carlin? Naaaaah. Not even close.

Hi , this is off topic but if somebody could help me with this I would be extremely grateful.
In online discussions of covid19 I regularly come afford the phrases ” sars cov2 has never been isolated” , “safe cov2 has never been isolated according to Koch ‘s postulates ” or ” show me proof that sars cov2 has been isolated ”
I realise it’s all red herrings , deflection etc but any help in answering these comments would be much appreciated.
All the best

Wow, what nonsense. The sequence was released very early on (around 29k bases) and there are at least hundreds of known mutations (almost all of which do not affect activity). I don’t know how people can be so ignorant. Do a search for: SARS-CoV-2 sequence, and look for hits in peer-reviewed journals or other reliable sources.

Do a search for: SARS-CoV-2 sequence, and look for hits in peer-reviewed journals or other reliable sources.

Or ‘SARS-CoV-2 micrograph’.

I fully accept my ignorance on these matters , I was just looking for a little help .I’m sorry to have upset you .

According to the Report of the WHO-China Joint Mission
on Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)
“whole genome sequences of the COVID-19 virus were shared with WHO on 10 January.” pg 14 last para.

Koch’s postulate is more than a century old, and it really only applied to microbes the size of bacteria. It does not work with viruses. Technology has progressed exponentially in the last forty years compared to a century ago.

Nigel, I hope you don’t think I was insulting you. Those comments were directed at the people challenging you. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

I’ve seen the same claims of “never isolated” and “no electron micrographs.” All this sort of thing tends to start with a single crank somewhere then propagate through the intertoobz.

I don’t remember the date, but two groups, one in Australia and one in France, succeeded in growing SARS-CoV-2 in culture quite soon after it was first identified. That’s hard to do without “isolating” it.The announcements of success in culturing were almost simultaneous from both groups.

I’m curious what the deniers think PCR is identifying if not the target virus, though they are also notorious for claiming that PCR reacts to other things. I’ve seen claims you’ll test positive for COVID-19 if you’ve had a flu vaccination in the past year or so.

@ doug:

Denialists have also done this with hiv, claiming it was never isolated,t hat there are no electron micrographs, and that tests for it are useless.
These days however, there is less focus on hiv because effective pharmacological treatments have allowed people with the virus to live reasonably normal lives with life spans approaching the average.

@ Orac’s minions:

I present to you a quandary:
RI has had a recent influx of trolls who persist in presenting mis-information or mis-interpretations about vaccines, Covid-19 and other important issues for the SB community.
I am of two minds about this:
— my education and training suggest that if one responds to them, the interloper is rewarded and will continue all the more because they received attention and have found an environment where they can argue, insult and disseminate their pseudo-science or deep thoughts about Science or The World without being banned, unlike other forums
BUT
— if we fail to respond and CORRECT their many errors, drop-ins, lurkers and newbies may assume that they are meaningful and that their Gish Gallops- often involving multiple links and citations- are valuable and may even negate the OP, SB view and consensus. Someone has to say. “You shall not pass!” or its sceptical equivalent. AS the old cartoon illustrates, the guy won’t go to bed because “Something is wrong on the internet” (SIWOTI) and he has to fix it.

At any rate, a few minions have repeatedly made mincemeat of frequent offenders and they are to be congratulated for their fact based repartee, sarcasm and creativity BUT if someone throws out a load of dubious material CONTINUOULSY, do we need to address each shoddy point or crappy reference? When you sort through their dreck, often you’ll find that the original material is mis-quoted, mis-used or is selectively edited to support their skewed perspective. Obviously, different minions have different approaches- some, like Joel ( Where are you?) address every error in great detail and include citations and links, others dismiss the BS summarily with a quip or insult ( you know who you are) and some try to do both ( guilty as charged!);some have manners ( Prof Dorit) whilst others do not ( Take a bow, F68.10!).

What do you gentlemen and ladies think?

As you may know, I already have another agenda and other fish to fry ( super spreaders of woo/ anti-vax on the net and efforts to de-activate their damage) but trolls are indeed progeny of the aforesaid liars. I would rather deal with the fonts of mis-information than those who partake of its tainted waters.

At the risk of being too law-professorish, it depends. I think you set out the dilemma really well, and there’s no right answer. Some response is important, but we don’t owe them a detailed response for every point, nor do we need it for lurkers.

I think we should keep in mind our goals, and I think you put them together clearly:
A. Protect people from being misled.
B. Not give the attackers too much importance or attention.

I would add one more –
C. Give each other useful information for other debunking – I constantly learn from comments by users here to trolls, where they explain things. Even if it gives the visitor attention, I would hate to miss some of the information given.

So, like with teaching plans, maybe our commenting strategy should focus on our goal, and be written to serve our goals.

On the other hand, some people may just enjoy sparring with science deniers, and that’s okay. Commenting on a blog can be fun.

Of course, I agree!

Another important factor is that commenting or responding promotes solidarity amongst sceptics:

in a world where quasi news outlets, off kilter politicians and thirsty internet influencers/ persuaders broadcast remarkably decorticate assemblages of pseudo-science, superstition and wishful thinking,, a SB observer can feel overwhelmed by
the sheer (un) critical mass of mindless nonsense being hurled about electronically.
AND social media is indeed their sorry handmaiden.
.
I take heart in two developments:
— mainstream media news gives little coverage to woo/ anti-vax
— social media companies are finally cleaning up their acts and restricting charlatans/ conspiracy theorists from benefitting from their free platforms. Many of Orac’s prime targets are being denied access to Facebook, Twitter and You Tube whilst Wikipedia skewers them all.

Indeed. The sorry reappearance of Gerg is getting no attention from me, but watching Aelxa squirm is still mildly amusing.

Yes, there is often little point responding to Greg. What he writes is mostly going to convince readers he has a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock.

I used to like Talk.Origins archive when I was a regular reader at The Pandas Thumb blog. Just having a repository of the most commonly asked ‘questions’ allowed for better consistency and the subtext of “It’s not new, or revolutionary. it’s he same questions as last time”.

@ Mongrel:

Right, the same obfuscation, same protagonists, same BS to refute over and over.
There is a search function that allows Orac’s followers find how he dealt with woo/ anti-vax talking points/ perpetrators in the past.

But there’s a problem in that there is so much material on topics such as the so-called autism epidemic, Hg, Al, various ( poor) researchers and myths about vaccines or SBM.
For example, if you Search ‘RFK jr’, you’ll find loads of articles because Orac has refuted his dreck for 15 years!** Also many OPs link to earlier articles. Also when discussing mis-informers like Bigtree, Exley or Shaw, Orac shows who funds them or how they earn money from their woo.

** and many of us had read most of it.

@ Denice Walter

“Take a bow, F68.10!”

Honestly, I do feel somewhat guilty about my rather extreme passive-aggressive stance on such matters, as it is not exactly representative of my baseline personality.

I tend, as Dorit wrote, to enjoy sparring with science-deniers in general, and I do not believe it is useless. Problems people have when assessing issues such as those treated on this blog boil down to readily identifiable mistakes, and I believe it is useful highlighting them. Not sure I’m doing good on that, but I try.

As I have a very conflicted attitude towards medicine, I’d rather stay away from the work you people are doing. I think it is a better use of my time to do that kind of job on semi far right blogs, where many such biases are rife on non-medical topics, and sometimes on medical ones.

@ Joel

If you are reading us, please come back. Really.

@ Everyone

If I am annoying, please tell me, and I’ll keep as silent as possible. I understand not everyone may appreciate my comments. And I’m pretty sure some positively do not.

Gosh! Imagine that! People are actually questioning vaccines! Outrageous! Questioning anything the media says is just ridiculous. Nevertheless, Dorit, I am wondering where exactly did you see the pandemic? Can you share any photos or personal stories of an actual pandemic, anywhere? Falling bodies? Overcrowded hospitals? Doctors cracking from too many patients…anything like that? Are there any survivors in your neighborhood? It would help to know because some silly people just won’t seem to take the media’s word for it. They are so stubborn they actually want to see for themselves. I know it it’s crazy, because we should just believe the strangers on TV and know it’s the Gospel Truth, but still, I would love to hear from you. Thanks

You, of course, can question vaccines. Problem with Kennedy is that he constantly lies. A factual statement would be more effective here.
I do know somebody who had COVID-19, if this means something

A. I’ve been following Face of Covid on Twitter, where they bring the stories and obituaries of victims. You could learn quite a bit.
B. I know people who lost loved ones to Covid-19.
C. I have two friends – young women, nurses – who went through Covid-19. One still has lingering heart problems. The other documented her day-to-day passage through it.

These are some examples. Wanting to imagine it away doesn’t quite work.

Gosh! Imagine that! People are actually questioning vaccines! Outrageous! Questioning anything the media says is just ridiculous. Nevertheless, Dorit, I am wondering where exactly did you see the pandemic?

Smooth transition, purported Biggs.

Nevertheless, Dorit, I am wondering where exactly did you see the pandemic?

I have been rather shielded from the pandemic, but even I know people who have been infected and a friend of mine has died from it. What is worse, I could not even attend their funeral.

So if you want to drop in here with conspiracy theories about how COVID-19 is not that bad, well you can sod right off. If it had not been for COVID-19, my friend would still be alive and we would be spending time together over Christmas. Can’t do that now.

@ Chris Preston

“So if you want to drop in here with conspiracy theories about how COVID-19 is not that bad, well you can sod right off.”

Being insensitive to people dying is not constitutive of a conspiracy theory. It may make someone a despicable human being, but not a conspiracy theorist. Of course, this is a technicality, admittedly… In some contexts, this technicality may be of importance…

Being insensitive is, you’re right, not part of being a conspiracy theorist, but the question here comes out of a belief that COVID-19 harms are grossly exaggerated, with some even claiming the whole thing is a hoax. That is an (untrue) conspiracy theory.

What do you gentlemen and ladies think?

I am sure I have written here and in other places, that I often just select one or two items out of the Gish Gallop and show those are wrong. This only needs to be done often enough for someone dipping into the thread to recognise there is nonsense on display. There is no point in getting into long internet arguments, as that leads to reader fatigue.

Even more important is affirming the response of another poster. One person debunking is less effective than when two or three debunk the same point.

Agreed.
I sometimes try to pick out the most egregious utterance** such as: ( radio example) if the expert on neurology can’t pronounce either amygdala or neuron don’t listen to him.
Or a troll presents something that was covered repeatedly on RI so we could just point to the Search box.

Like I say, if you are wrong with simple basics, your material can’t be trusted.

** Although a person like Joel who goes through each and every error has value for sceptics because we learn from him AND it does show the naysayer that the topic is much more complex and layered than they imagine.

Denice, not being native speaker, I tend to pronounce this sort of words Latin-ish.
I sometimes don’t know how to pronounce and sometimes it just annoys me how English mangles perfectly good Latin 🙂

@ kultakutri:

I often include these examples purely for comic effect, but your observation also furthers my point: you are familiar with more than one language: At least 3!

The offender claims a doctorate and diverse educational excellence to his audience – yet despite being an “expert” in life science and “widely read” in ALL disciplines , he mangles both physiological/ anatomical terminology as well names of artists, philosophers and scientists which are not originally English;
This tells me a few things-
— he never studied these subjects because he would have learned how to pronounce important words/ names as you hear them a thousand times in class
— he never studied a foreign language: in his age cohort and nationality, most students who attend universities need several years of a foreign language to start and doctoral students need to translate articles in foreign languages.
He instead has degrees from a non-academic business school, an ‘alternate paths’ university and a mail order PhD.

I’ve counselled international students, travelled and studied abroad so I can appreciate how much foreign language acquisition enables learning across other areas of inquiry.

A classic example of falsely presenting oneself as an authoritative figure using props is the cover of Neil Z. (I Communicate With Extraterrestrials) Miller’s book of “critical vaccine studies”*.

Not only is Neil not a doctor, it appears he isn’t even the man portrayed on the book cover wearing a white coat and sporting a stethoscope (unless he’s undergone impressive plastic surgery to include facial mole removal).

Neil Z. Miller: https://imhu.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Neil_Z_Miller_High_Res-e1410973902287.jpg

The cover of his book: http://vaccinecommonsense.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Vaccine-studies-Neil-Z.-Miller.jpg

It’d be interesting to know just who the “doctor” on the cover of Neil’s book is. I suspect it’s a stock image.

*The “400 Critical Vaccine Studies” only includes the articles Neil could wrestle and twist into seeming to support his otherworldly view of immunization. He admits in an introduction that he omitted all the studies validating the safety and efficacy of vaccines, as they’ve gotten too much attention elsewhere, or some such.

Dorit may be the only other one to fully appreciate this, but at least the wall of books isn’t random sets of legal books.

That tends to drive me bonkers in TV shows. I imagine that big firms and (especially) law schools still maintain libraries, but eight bound volumes of the Federal Reporter are not going to cut the mustard.

Especially if you’re trying to look like a serious medical expert. I get why it happens. With the shift to online databases, old, out of date legal sets are cheap and they look nicely matched and Important(TM) for set dressing. And most people won’t recognize the USC and such on sight. But once you do, you will never unsee it and forever yelling at your TV, going “Why does the European history professor have legal texts and not actual history books behind him in his office?”

I do own several multi-volume Floras (as in, Flora of the Iberian peninsula), and these do look like something quite pretentious but apart from actually needing them from time to time, I do read them just for my pleasure.
But, any personal library that gets actually used is more or less messy. Even if a person had staff, they wouldn’t let anyone rearrange their books – I like to reach for, say, Catalan dictionary and find them in their usual habitat, not in the section of books with red covers.

The idea that ethylmercury is safer than methylmercury, since ethylmercury is excreted faster, is not true, like RFKJr said “there is no safe mercury”…..

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16079072/

This study shows the same amount of cell damage from both methylmercury and ethylmercury in cells exposed for 30 minutes. Plus, ethylmercury left higher levels of inorganic mercury in the brain versus in the blood shows ethylmercury crosses the blood brain barrier effectively.

This webpage shows the amounts of aluminum in various vaccines, giving both the adult and child/infant vaccine aluminum amounts, note the child/baby vaccines contain about half as much aluminum as the adult vaccine versions.

The dose makes the poison in medicine,
how is giving 10 pound or less baby in one bolus, half the adult dose of Aluminum safe? When an adult weighs well over 120 pounds? The amount of Aluminum which a baby normally imbibed from breast milk over a one year period, in one sudden large bolus??

Aluminum is another toxic substance in multiple children and adult vaccines, look at the list of vaccines and their amounts of Aluminum here……..

https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients/aluminum

Aluminum is found in large amounts in both the brains of those with Autism……

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763

And in brains of people with Alzheimers Disease. In this study they compared neurotypical person’s brain aluminum levels against Aluminum amounts in persons known to have had Alzheimers, or Autism, or MS……

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-64734-6

The neurotypical brains had low levels of Aluminum, while the brains of those with neurological disease or disorder had high Aluminum levels.

Toxins cause brain damage, whether it is Mercury, Aluminum, or another toxic item used as a adjutant in a vaccine to stimulate the immune system.

To claim since Thimerisol was removed from vaccines, Autism levels should have dropped is facetious, children were already getting Aluminum in certain vaccines before 1997.

Theoretical studies were used to determine the MRL (Minimal Risk Level) to children based on animal studies done on TWO rabbits given oral Aluminum, not injected Aluminum…….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29307441/

By the time a child is 4 to 6 years old, they have been injected with about 126 antigenic compounds along with high amounts of Aluminum……

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22235057/

To think there would be no serious repercussions from all these toxins, is magical thinking. Depending on the ability of the child to detoxify all the chemicals and metals, depending on the genes the child inherited, is it small wonder we have gone from a Autism rate of 1 in over 2,000 children to 1 in about 36 children?

The dose makes the poison, and we are injecting children with chemicals never seen in Nature before 1920 when chemists started seriously making various strange compounds in the effort to find marketable compounds for DuPont and other companies to sell.

And add to them other substances like Aluminum, that the human body never had to deal with in such massive amounts over a short few months or years, amounts that are much more than any average person in 1940 would be expected to have consumed over their entire lifetime from air, water, and food.

Fast and hard exposure can be expected to cause fast and hard damage to a human body.

How about we give a child a lifetime exposure to X-rays before they are 6 years old, what would you expect the results to be to that body insult, hmmmmm?

@Aelxa, I had a look through your cites.
Aluminium in brain tissue in autism from “Science Direct” and Aluminium in human brain tissue from donors without neurodegenerative disease: A comparison with Alzheimer’s disease, multiple sclerosis and autism “Nature” articles were co-authored by Christopher Exley. Already you lose.

Critical analysis of reference studies on the toxicokinetics of aluminum-based adjuvants is Exley again, with Romain Gherardi.

Your fourth linked article is Mechanisms of aluminum adjuvant toxicity and autoimmunity in pediatric populations, written by Tomljenovic and Shaw.

The only “magical thinking being done is by you.

@ Julian Frost:

It’s interesting to try to figure out where scoffers get their references and examples.
Around here, they are usually from common anti-vax or woo sources that function as super spreaders.. How many times have we heard of these particular researchers and how many times has Orac debunked their nonsense? Anyone can check the Search button with a specific name.

Computer analysis has shown the reality of channels of mis-information amongst anti-vaxxers by monitoring traffic amongst dedicated websites or Facebook pages.
Pseudo-scientists’ results/ ideas are popularised by Woo/ anti-vax clearinghouses that perpetuate their myths: we all know who they are. Natoli Natrass calls them ” cultopreneurs”- i.e. they engender cults and then, sell them stuff or merely bad ideas.

This study shows claims to show

FTFY. You’re just completely incompetent at… oh, yes, “Medicine.” Think* there might have been some replies?

*Oh, wait.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16079072/

This study shows the same amount of cell damage from both methylmercury and ethylmercury in cells exposed for 30 minutes. Plus, ethylmercury left higher levels of inorganic mercury in the brain versus in the blood shows ethylmercury crosses the blood brain barrier effectively.

Unsurprisingly, the study by Burbacher et al. 2005 shows no such thing. What it does show is that thiomersal is more rapidly removed from the blood of monkeys than methylmercury (half-life of 2.1 days compared with 21.5 days and accumulated at concentratiuons three times less in the brain than methylmercury.

What it shows is that the behaviour of methylmercury and thiomersal are quite different.

@Chris Preston

Of course, methylmercury is more toxic than ethylmercury, otherwise they would be totally unable to use ethylmercury (thiomersal)at all in vaccines.

You do not seem to get the point, both methyl and ethyl forms of mercury cause the same damage to cells in a 30 minute period.

It is only because ethylmercury is detoxified faster that makes it LESS toxic than methylmercury, since it is removed from the body faster. Less toxic does not equal safe, it merely means more doses are needed over time to cause as much harm as a single dose of methylmercury.

You do not seem to get the point, both methyl and ethyl forms of mercury cause the same damage to cells in a 30 minute period.

So does a handgun.

You were the one who failed to get the point. There was nothing in the paper you linked to about cell damage caused by methylmercury or thiomersal. In fact, the word “cell” does not appear in the paper.

Reading. It is a very useful skill. Especially if done carefully.

All this Gish Gallop of yours demonstrated is that you are just another garden variety anti-vaxxer. Pulling out all the usual tropes. Citing papers because you think they support your position, but choosing them from the dregs of the literature or not reading them properly. Despite this, you have convinced yourself you know more than people who have studied immunology for decades and are able to read scientific papers.

@Chris Preston

Yes, the results are very different between Ethylmercury and Methylmercury. …..

If you go down to “Results” and make your way to where they go over Figure 7……

“The inorganic form of Hg was readily measurable in the brain of the Thimerosal-exposed monkeys. The average concentration of inorganic Hg did not change over 28 days of washout and was approximately 16ng/ml (figure 7). This level of inorganic Hg represented 21-86% of the total Hg in the brain…depending on the sacrifice time. THESE VALUES ARE CONSIDERABLY HIGHER THAN THE INORGANIC FRACTION OBSERVED IN MeHg MONKEYS (6-10%). (Emphasis is mine of course, since you had trouble reading it.)

Then the study says….

“The large difference in the blood Hg half-life compared to the brain half-life of the Thimerosal exposed monkeys (6.9 days versus 24 days) indicates that blood mercury is not a good indicator of risk of adverse effects on the brain, particularly under conditions of rapidly changing blood levels such as those observed after vaccinations.”

“There was much higher proportion of inorganic Hg in the brain of Thimerosal monkeys than in the brain of MEHg monkeys (up to 71% vs 10%).”

This means while ethylmercury seemed to leave the body faster because blood levels dropped faster than the Methylmercury treated monkeys Mercury blood levels, Ethylmercury left behind much, much more Mercury in the brain than the Methylmercury did.

As for the cell washout 30 minute test it must have come from another study I was looking at. I read so many damn studies daily.

Setting aside this shadow boxing of RFK Jr…. Why doesn’t Orac just call RFK Jr into the ring anyway?! Oh yes — Orac would get his clock cleaned! Yes, setting aside Orac’s lightening insolence jabs, twists, and turns, I did find this worthy:

In one particularly egregious bit of disinformation, RFK Jr. dismisses the possibility of a COVID-19 vaccine as a way out of the pandemic. This is the sort of disinformation that’s effective because it has a germ of truth in it. There are legitimate scientists (e.g., Peter Hotez) cautioning that a coronavirus vaccine is not a panacea and that, even if developed, it will take many months to manufacture and distribute. But to dismiss even the possibility of a vaccine as a way to mitigate the pandemic is irresponsible at best, dangerous at worst, particularly given how RFK Jr. pivoted next. Can you guess?
</blockquote?

Yes, we hear concessions about the challenges of producing a 'safe and effective' coronavirus vaccine, but interestingly, not many seem to be spelling out the exact nature of these challenges. Searching and searching, I did come across this article from Prof Frazer from University of Queensland spelling it out. He explained that coronavirus infects outside of the body in the upper respiratory tract, and where the immune system is not active. I quote him…

There are several reasons why our upper respiratory tract is a hard area to target a vaccine.

“It’s a separate immune system, if you like, which isn’t easily accessible by vaccine technology,”
Your skin, and the outer layer of cells in your upper respiratory tract act as a barrier to viruses, stopping them getting into the body.

And finding a way to neutralize the virus “outside” of the body is very difficult.

This is partly because only the outer layer of cells (the epthelial cells) get infected, which, compared to a severe infection of internal organs doesn’t produce the same immune response, so is harder to target.

It’s hard to produce a successful vaccine if the virus isn’t activating a strong immune response.

Again, the issue is why are we not having more of such candid assessments, and how it bodes for the safety and effectiveness of a candidate covid vaccine

PS: Athaic, you seem to be the immunologist expert around here. If you are lurking I would like to take you up on Prof Frazer’s assessments.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2020-04-17/coronavirus-vaccine-ian-frazer/12146616

@ Greg

“Why doesn’t Orac just call RFK Jr into the ring anyway?!”

Because, as we say in French, “Taper dans la merde, ça éclabousse”. Which roughly translates as “Wrestle with shit at the risk of splattering”.

To have such debates, one would need a very very talented moderator. And the status of Orac as a medical scientist should be reason enough for him not to engage on such topics as it would unduly confer credibility to RFK. The opponent to RFK should be a militant skeptic instead, not a medical scientist. And in such a context, I do not believe wankers like you or people like RFK would agree to the debate; as it would not suit your purposes.

So keep up the Internet Warrior Performance. We’re scared to death.

F68, so Orac doesn’t debate RFK Jr because Orac is a ‘respectable’ scientist? Au contraire, my french ‘friend’! You see — Orac is indeed having the debates with these blogs. It’s a matter of debating your opponent with them absent You step in the ring and flail away at a caricature of them, and with your self-appointed cheerleaders (you for example!) hooting and hollering, and declaring you the victor. It’s a particular debating style that perfectly suits a ‘respectable’ scientist as Orac, and which he will have no other way.

@ Greg

“F68, so Orac doesn’t debate RFK Jr because Orac is a ‘respectable’ scientist?”

Yes. The argument was given in my previous comment. You haven’t treated its rationale.

“Au contraire, my french ‘friend’! You see — Orac is indeed having the debates with these blogs. It’s a matter of debating your opponent with them absent”

What is stopping RFK to step in on this blog and comment himself? Nothing, I’m told.

“You step in the ring and flail away at a caricature of them, and with your self-appointed cheerleaders (you for example!) hooting and hollering, and declaring you the victor.”

I explicitly explained in my previous comment under what conditions such a debate would be, to my eyes, legitimate. You have not treated the argument I gave.

“It’s a particular debating style that perfectly suits a ‘respectable’ scientist as Orac, and which he will have no other way.”

I do not have to tell Orac what to do. And RFK is, to my knowledge, free to put forth his arguments just below mine, yours, or anyone’s.

Keep talking.

You step in the ring

Heh.Do soldier on, Gerg, as watching you get your clock cleaned yet again is entertaining.

F68.10 is correct: why should Orac participate in performance art that elevates a dishonest poseur who relentlessly provides mis-information about vaccines and autism to naive audiences?

Orac’s alt med/ anti-vax critics aren’t exactly shrinking violets: they publish scathing ‘exposes’ of his nefarious and criminal activities, his lack of scientific background and intelligence, his money ties to Big Pharma and his maiming of women ( see respectively Natural News’ Mike Adams, PRN’s Null and Gale, Jake Crosby AoA/ Autism Investigated,, Tim Bolen, Whale.to) which could land ALL of them in court for libel **

Orac’s- and other sceptics’- activities may be a factor leading to, social media limiting the influence of pseudoscientists by cancelling their accounts on YouTube, Facebook and Twitter.
thus it’s now harder for them to get their scurvy message out to innocent followers which might cut into their profit margin. or charities’ bottom lines.

Wikipedia, which incorporates SB information provided by sceptics, is their bete noire

** and -btw- I’ve had scoffers libel me right here.

@ Denice Walter

“Why should Orac participate in performance art?”

I must say that I’d appreciate seeing some people undertake such performance art…

I must say that I’d appreciate seeing some people undertake such performance art…

Where’s Mummenschanz when you need them?

In terms of performance in the “ring” of factual and reasoned discussion in print and online (not to mention the “ring” of public opinion), RFK Jr. has been thrown so many times he must have virtual canvas burns all over his butt.

Though it would be fun to turn the tables and have Drs. Peter Hotez and Paul Offit moderate a live debate between Orac and RFK Jr.

Cut off from the ability to Gish Gallop, spew ad hominems and engage in other typical shenanigans, poor Junior would take a shellacking.

Though it would be fun to turn the tables and have Drs. Peter Hotez and Paul Offit moderate a live debate between Orac and RFK Jr.

Dangerous One, Hotez and Offit as moderators?! Are you sure we should not try for Merck’s CEO, Frazer, also? I can just imagine the debate with any of these characters as moderators…

“RFK, you have one second to answer the next question. Woops- time is up! Orac, please feel free to mail in your answer (wink wink).”

PS: Seriously though folks, who would like to address Prof Frazer’s assessments of the challenges producing a Covid vaccine.

@Julian Frost

Ah, you object to studies done by actual researchers in the field of examining aluminum effects on the human body, how cherry-picking of you.

Here are studies without those names on them…..

https://surgicalneurologyint.com/surgicalint-articles/immunoexcitotoxicity-as-the-central-mechanism-of-etiopathology-and-treatment-of-autism-spectrum-disorders-a-possible-role-of-fluoride-and-aluminum/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/medicalxpress.com/news/2018-09-toxic-metal-pollution-linked-autism.amp

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S001393511830269X?via%3Dihub

The objection to Exley was he had no controls, well the study of Alunimum content in neurotypical brains clearly shows that the neurotypical brains have much lower brain burdens of Aluminum.

Well, why don’t we divide America’s kids in half, give half of them the full slue of vaccines possible and the other half none. Then compare Autism rates.

Oh, not possible to do.

This whole controversy reminds me of poor Dr. Semmelweiss who was harassed for saying doctors were spreading disease by not washing their hands. Dr Semmelweiss wound up dying in an Insane Asylum……because other physicians refused to believe they were causing harm and killing patients by their going from autopsies directly to patients, etc.

It would upset anyone to think following regular everyday procedure might be the cause of severe harm to another person, imagine how much worse for a physician who takes an oath to “do no harm”.

Do physicians even take that oath anymore? And do they even think about that clause if they did take the oath?

Aluminum is toxic…….

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7071840/

Even back in 1986 physicians were aware of the problem in children and babies…….

https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/78/6/1150

There are tons of papers showing Aluminum is a neurotoxin, just because there are people who claim these “small” amounts are harmless does not make that true.

It is necessary to claim this, since if they took the toxins out of vaccines it would change vaccination radically. Can not make a poor weak almost useless vaccine unless you add something that will wake up the immune system it the fact the body is under attack by something that could kill it. Toxins stimulatevthe immune system, that is why they are in crap made vaccines with barely there parts of infectious particles. Without the toxins, the human body would completely ignore those tiny non-infectious bits.

Toxins accumulate and build up, like gadolinum from MRI that are supposed to be completely chelated and leave the body, but substantial amount stay in the body for years, depositing in the brain (just like Aluminum) and bones….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28362042/

You can not keep throwing toxic substances at a body and not expect “the straw that broke the camel’s back” effect to occur at some point.

If you do not believe that Aluminum is toxic, and that I am engaging in “magical thinking” to believe it does, then I challenge you to consume regular amounts of Aluminum beyond the “expected” amounts from air, water and food. A tiny 1/2 cm square of Aluminum foil should do the trick, since oral absorption of Aluminum is very poor versus injection.

Afterall, Aluminum is not toxic according to your view. Bon appetit. And see you in a year.

First article has Russell Blaylock as an author. It also contains words like “suggests”. Also, I read the conclusion. Not convincing.

Your second link is a press release, not a study.

Your third link goes to the article mentioned in 2. Only the introduction was available. The title is Toxic metal(loid)-based pollutants and their possible role in autism spectrum disorder
“Possible”.

The next link is Aluminium toxicosis: a review of toxic actions and effects. It cites James Lyon-Weiler, Tomljenovic and Shaw, Mitkus, and Neil Miller.

The Al ion has no physiological role in metabolic processes (Exley and House, 2011) but it can be a metallic toxicant to humans and animals (Becaria et al., 2002) when there is high body burden of the metal after natural or unnatural exposure (Exley, 2013). Al was considered unsafe to humans after the discovery of increased levels of Al in brain tissues of patients with encephalopathy, having been exposed to Al accumulation through dialysis (Alfrey and Solomons, 1976).

So symptoms only occur after massively elevated load.

As for your link from 1986, that deals with high aluminium load. It is hard to believe that the minuscule amounts of aluminium in a vaccine are that damaging.

The dose makes the poison. There is more aluminium in a single banana than in the entire vaccine schedule.

@Julian Frost

Obviously, you do not know that any medicine dose received is dependent on the method of administration. Giving an injection is fastest and the full amount gets utilized by the body. Rectal is next in a suppository not all is absorbed but most, and oral is least and slowest absorbed.

In the case of Aluminum…..

http://www.heraldopenaccess.us/openaccess/aluminium-exposure-through-the-diet

Go down to “ABSORPTION” and read…

“Aluminum is absorbed in a proportion of 0.1-0.3% by the gastrointestinal tract, and occurs in the upper intestine where absorption is higher due to lower pH levels.”

Also take into account babies have higher pH levels at younger age, so absorb less.

Also, citation please on Aluminum doseage of banana (without skin), then calculate what 0.1% of that is to obtain amount of Aluminum a child may obtain from a banana. Also, adjust doseage as a small child under six months never eats a whole banana.

In fact, one should wait until a baby is six months old to feed banana, as the baby’s digestive system is not mature enough to handle bananas……

https://wholesomebabyfood.momtastic.com/bananababyfoodrecipes.htm

Though some people feed kids banana earlier at four months, colic is very common at that age duse to feeding young children foods that are only appropriate at an older age.

In six months of breast-feeding a baby gets only a minuscule 2.0μmg of Aluminum, compared to 225 to 1750μmg of Aluminum per vaccine dose. …..

https://www.nature.com/articles/jes200964

Yes, you could give a baby high Aluminum baby formula made from soy or some other crap manufactured by corporations, then claim this makes giving high bolus doses of Aluminum ok, but formula is not the natural food of babies.

In fact, the Aluminum content of plant foods worldwide is increasing due to acidification of soils from acid rain….

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2017.01767/full

And Aluminum content of processed foods are increasing from the use of Aluminum in packaging …….

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5388732/

Aluminum was pointed out as the study says “indicated” as being toxic to brains in the 1960s, and all advised permissible levels are based on studies using words like “possible” and “indicative”, etc …….

https://enveurope.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/2190-4715-23-37

I will point Arsenic was used during the late 1880s and early 1900s to make the green color in wallpapers at that time, and Arsenic poisoning from wallpaper was common. It did not take too long to remove Arsenic from paints and coloring.

Asbestos has been known to cause disease and Cancer since the early 1900s, yet was not banned until 2009.

Studies will always indicate things, but never conclusively prove anything, thus the wording, because each individual whether animal or human reacts differently due to metabolic efficiency and gene variants affecting body function.

It is the preponderance of evidence that changes things in Medicine, there is never any firm and conclusive beyond all doubt evidence. You will not even find ANY conclusive study or evidence for the CDCs assertion that the adjutants like Aluminum in vaccines are safe, and the studies used to say so are so poorly done and used so few animal they are a joke.

So you can poo-poo every study out there the CDC cites, on which recommendations as to any substance are made by any official in any government.

It all comes down to Aluminum is known to be a toxic substance, and you can keep raising the “tolerable limits” all you want…but there comes a point where there is an obvious problem when you have a single disease or disorder go through the roof in conjunction to increasing exposure to that toxic substance year by year.

A substance known to cause brain damage, Aluminum, is increasing and a disorder known to be a neurological brain disorder, Autism (and let us not forget Alzheimers and MS, too) is increasing. The correlation is obvious, but Aluminum is big business, just like Asbestos was. Just like Arsenic had been.

But thanks to people like you, it will take even longer to remove toxins from vaccines. Not to mention foods and food packaging.

Overstating the difference in routes of administration is as incorrect as ignoring it. An IM injection is not the same as an IV. IV is the fastest.

Here is an accessible explanation by a scientist of why treating IM the way you did is incorrect.

It also directly addresses rates for aluminum adjuvants.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/scientistabe.wordpress.com/2018/05/07/sciences-pharmacology-ingestion-versus-injection-explained-to-my-cat/amp/?client=safari

@Dorit

Yes, IV is the fastest of all, giving medication into veins is 99% of the time via an IV port placed inside a vein in the hospital, generally to give fluids. Any drugs given via IV involves diluting them in sterile saline or Ringers Lactate or a dextrose solution in the majority of cases. Though an injection without dilution via IV port is done.

I was talking about giving injected medication in a non-hospital situation, which is injection either subcutaneous (just under the skin) or into muscle.

The only people outside a hospital or emergency situation who inject a drug into a vein may be an EMT, but are almost always drug addicts instead.

Overstating the routes of administration? There is huge difference as regards the rapidity in which a drug gets distributed throughout the body, depending on whether it is oral, rectal or injected. Oh, and I forgot the method of transdermal patch.

Aluminum is one of the most abundant elements on the planet – we’ve been exposed to it, in significant quantities, since man first walked on the Earth.

A child suffering a scrap, cut or even an abrasion, is going to be exposed to actual elemental aluminum in quantities that far exceed the “aluminum salts” used in some vaccines.

I’m surprised you don’t know the different between elements and compounds – especially since the chemical properties of compounds can be vastly different .

Try looking at the post I linked to, from a scientist. It addresses the difference, and in particular, in relation to aluminum, directly correcting some of your error. He says:
“In the case of aluminum, both PO and IM/SC routes are very poor in delivering it into the bloodstream. We estimate it between 0.3% (PO) and 0.6% (IM/SC) of the total amount of aluminum injected to reach the circulation.” and provides a citation.

@Dorit Reiss

First, Aluminum. While Aluminum is the most abundant metal on Earth, it does not come uncombined and is found as mineral rocks called Cryolite and Bauxite.

https://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele013.html

https://www.rsc.org/periodic-table/element/13/aluminium

If Aluminum was a highly available metal, the ancient humans would have been using it instead of iron, but seperating Aluminum from Bauxite requires extremely high temperatures, over 2000°Centigrade (3632°F).

So electrolysis is used to manufacture Aluminum instead. This means Aluminum has been locked away unavailable to really affect the human body, human metabolism and thus the human nervous system for untold eons.

As a side note, I actually own a Aluminum coin minted in the 1800s, it was more expensive then gold back then and worth quite a bit.

Aluminum was previously only available as tiny amounts in unprocessed plant foods, so the human body never accumulated much over a short human lifetime, about 35 to 40 years in most cases, if that.

Now our lives are inundated with Aluminum, in pots and pans, aluminum foil we put leftovers in or roast food within in the oven, drink acid soft drinks in, now imbedded in the plastic/foil bags chips and any other processed food gets shipped in. Humans get so much more aluminum absorbed than ever in history. A huge experiment in observation on pure Aluminum in massive amounts is going on, and we are dosing ourselves.

Now think of dosing a baby with an injection, remember less than 1% of Aluminum from foods eaten is absorbed through the gastric system. And a baby got less then other children until modern history and the invention of the baby bottle. A baby, which is still unfinished, still developing a nervous system that keeps on developing until the child is about 25 years old, only got less than 1% of the Aluminum in the breast milk her mother provided for food. A good thing, too, since the growth of the brain from birth to age two is massive, and adding crap like Aluminum molecules can really muckup in works in an organic computer still being built.

https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051

On top of Aluminum other adjuvants in vaccines are oil/water and squalene and they now come in nano size….

https://www.invivogen.com/addavax?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpYryt7-T6wIVHAiICR2lQQfGEAMYASAAEgLdr_D_BwE

Nano-size is noted for it’s excellent ability to cross the blood/brain barrier, the barrier that protects the human brain from toxins.

Hmmmm…..why use a nano product? As the big bad wolf said, all the better to get into your brain, my darling. Are they using nano-sized Aluminum, too? That would increase deposition in the brain also.

And multiple adjuvants and you get multi factors increase in effect.

Nano-size items are all the rage, but are a danger to the brain and it’s functioning.

You can not throw garbage into a delicate physical organism like the brain and not expect seriously negative consequences, that you insist it is ok is truly deluded thinking.

I have been wondering if I can waste an entire lawn by inserting two aluminum gutter spike nails across it and applying (quite clandestinely) ~80 volts across them… works a treat for making nano-thermite (not that I have any use for the stuff since jet fuel works pretty good).

@Dorit

So nice,….”we estimate it…”, did someone say to me before something about estimates, etc not being conclusion information enough to change concensus?

Here is a mouse study where they did exact measurements of Aluminum particles moving from muscle to brain…..

https://bmcmedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7015-11-99

Then here is lovely paper showing the studies the CDC used are very questionable, and their conclusions contradict the study information in studies cited…..

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/247218/

I too, can find citations backing my views. What I find interesting is every year there are more and more scientists willing to study vaccine adjuvants and no longer avoid the subject, where previously study in the area could cut a career short……..

Concensus is dividing as studies pile up. Gee, this reminds me of the trip from the 1960s to today regarding Global Warming.

A. Off-point studies do not actually back a point of view. Neither of your studies addressed rate of absorption from aluminum. The first was a mouse study that did not look at rate of absorption and the second an article from a group of highly problematic anti-vaccine activists with no relevant expertise that was not about aluminum at all.
Providing off-topic studies suggests, at best, a misunderstanding of the discussion (I am assuming it was honestly intended, and not an attempt to deflect from the actual topic).

So no. You do not appear to be able to find studies to support your point of view.

B. Note that the studies anti-vaccine activists address on aluminum adjuvants come from the same group of people, several of which have a history of retracted and highly flawed studies, none of which provide serious data on point.

@Dorit

The 2004 study the CDC based their claim in that “Vaccinations do not cause Autism”…….

https://translationalneurodegeneration.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2047-9158-3-16

And the 2014 Retraction of that study for manipulation of the data in order to get that result…..

https://translationalneurodegeneration.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2047-9158-3-22

The fact is the basic study information was made available, and in 2014 a study was released showing that African-American boys who got the MMR vaccine before age 2, were at higher risk of Autism.

It seems the CDC excluded these children’s information from the analysis by excluding all children without birth certificates.

However, the basic study information, which was released into public domain, included the information from the excluded children.

Wow, what a boo-boo. Which must be why my brother was told to completely erase the files of his study participants which the authors of his study did not want to use. It hurts to have things like this come back to bite you on the ass.

@Tim

Waste an entire lawn……were the lawn flamingos threatening to cross over into your green space?

Poor grass, isn’t it bad enough their homeowner bombs them to death with weed & feed? They are barely hanging in there, buddy.

@aelxa Hill:

The 20[1]4 study the CDC based their claim in that “Vaccinations do not cause Autism”

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong. The Hooker Study was NOT used by the CDC at all. It was an incompetent/malicious “reanalysis” designed to make the case that vaccines cause autism.
It is mindblowing that you get such basic facts wrong.

@ Aelxa Hill

“Ah, you object to studies done by actual researchers in the field of examining aluminum effects on the human body, how cherry-picking of you.”

No. Unless you show that consensus and meta-analysis and such confirm your views, you are the one that is cherry-picking.

“Here are studies without those names on them…..”

OK. Please extract relevant quotes from them to support your views, and keep looking for this “consensus”. We’re waiting.

Here’s my first shot at extracting quotes from your article

“The etiology and pathogeneis of ASD are not well understood.”

So that’s that for reliability…

“Our review presents evidence suggesting a hypothesis unifying the syndromes in ASD.”

When you just pour just about anything in an article and attempt to “suggest” a hypothesis, you haven’t proven much.

“Our hypothesis is supported by experimental evidence from animal models and by some clinical testing and pathology studies that give credibility to the concept of immunoexcitotoxicity as the underlying cause of ASD.”

So this a hypothesis. Now, if you wish to argue that their evidence is sound, please guide us through the article with the relevant quotes.

“Chronic activation of the brain’s immune system increases extracellular glutamate levels sufficiently to trigger the excitotoxic cascade, which in conjunction with inflammatory cytokines and prostaglandins, magnifies the damaging effects of both.”

Ah… Dizocilpine, my love

Do you seriously believe you have enough evidence to show that the glutamate explanation is the right one for autism? If you so say, I’ll try to get into the literature. Glutamate has been suggested for psychiatric disorders, such as schizophrenia, but I haven’t found these explanations to be “utterly” “convincing”. Now, if autism is tied to glutamate in a clear-cut manner, I’d like to know… But I really doubt that. Convince me…

“This mechanism explains most of the features of the ASD”

An “explanation” is not a “proof”. Is not “evidence”. It is the building block of a hypothesis. Nothing more.

“including the behavioral difficulties, language problems, repetitive behaviors, intellectual delay, and episodic dyscontrol of anger.”

All that? Wow! Big claims!

“Evidence is presented that the abundance of fluoride added to the water worldwide and the widespread availability of aluminum particularly to infants and young children through aluminum containing vaccinations, singly or together as aluminofluoride can be potent factors”

OK. Show me through the evidence. More interested in the fluoride nonsense than the aluminum one for personal reasons… Note, also, that this sentence is structured around the verb “can” of “can be”. Doesn’t claim anything definitive…

“The vaccination program should be evaluated to reduce the excessive stimulation of immature immune system and to replace Al3+-adjuvants.”

And here we have pure bullshit… All these “not well understood”, “suggests”, “hypothesis” locutions, these Niagara Falls of random and disparate evidence associated to these big claims, modulated by the use of verbs like “can” in “can be” are now morphed into a “should”.

What kind of watermelons do these authors have in place of their testicles? Sketching hypothesis and jumping to public policy in just one go! From 0 to 100 in what? 3 paragraphs in the conclusion! The nerve…

Deal with that first, and then we’ll see the rest of your claims. You’re going to have a lot of explanation and justification to do…

Do you seriously believe you have enough evidence to show that the glutamate explanation is the right one for autism?

“Captive chimpanzees are deprived of the diverse objects they would find in nature, and the most readily available projectile is feces. Since they also tend to get a pretty strong reaction from people when they do throw it, their behaviour is reinforced and likely to be repeated….”

A tiny 1/2 cm square of Aluminum foil should do the trick, since oral absorption of Aluminum is very poor versus injection.

I’ve offered many times, but the cranks always run away. I will happily drink a tablespoon of elemental mercury for 10 grand, escrowed. Nobody will put their money where there mouth is.

As for gadolinium, your carpet-bombing of crankology is getting tedious. It’s been dealt with at length before here, with (based on a quick check) one Maureen as the self-appointed heroine, or something.

In short, you’re out of your element, Donny.

I have some old deuterium thyratrons (high power, high speed switch) that I scobbod off an abandoned military (sensor/weapon) radar base. They are encased in beryllium and, apparently, It was inadvisable for me to polish them to a nice sheen with sandpaper before hamfest.

That sweet palladium absorber off the broken ones just couldn’t be not sucked on, chewed on, and used for makeshift dental amalgam. I’m pretty sure it did not make me the way I am; the stuff seems innocuous.

” I offer you twenty thousand dollars to place one Tablespoon of Mercury in an well-sealed enclosed room”

Yea, don’t try this indoors:
https://youtu.be/m8KzmlIEsHs?t=39

That guy does lots of crazy stuff with Hg probably because Hg.

You’re right about vapor; A not particularly nice way to go is to spill an automotive hood tilt switch or thermometer’s worth amount of Hg and then vacuum* it up (in an enclosed room). You’ll know something is not right when you start face-planting into door frames before even having downed the first 175 mL.

*nope, not even once. The ‘correct’ way to deal with that situation is to go over the area with a wide strip of cellophane tape (if the amount was known, the tape can be weighed as to remaining cleanliness). Some types of carpet could be problematic and should be replaced. Otherwise, you could end up with a deading dose if your house burns down with you in it.

https://www.cfs.gov.hk/english/programme/programme_rafs/files/RA35_Aluminium_in_Food_e.pdf
Go to concentrations of aluminium in food. Some foods contains hundreds of milligrams per kilogram.
Aluminium in vaccines is regulated:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/21/610.15
About a milligram is maximum
It is true that aluminium is not absorbed well, only 1 % goes to blood. But still, if you are right, eating is a much more dangerous activity. My challenge is to eat a cake every weekend, ten years. That would really kill you.

Wow, Julian, ear infections.

I suffered from ear infections my entire childhood…I have five scars on my right eardrum and three on my left eardrum. And all she had was one and she freaks out about it, amazing.

Curiously, I never got an ear infection when I had the Measles at six years old, which you would think would happen since I had an ear infection every Winter of my childhood until I was nine years old, and I was prone to them.

If she had an ear infection, she would have been screaming for hours before the eardrum finally blessedly burst, it is an excruciatingly painful and hours long experience. My poor Mom had to hold and rock me through each burst eardrum, she suffered almost as much as me since there was nothing she could do.

This sounds like someone who never had an ear infection at all in her life. Way back in 1950, back before the institution of those tiny tubes they put in the ears of children prone to ear infection, children like me suffered horribly. This women is telling tales since she supposedly slept through the whole experience.

Back then there was little antibiotic even available, today they easily treat the ear infections with ear tubes and antibiotics, and treat the other effects of the Measles. I refer you to the recent outbreak in NYC among the Orthodox Jews who do not vaccinate their children, nobody died or had horrible scarring or other effect from it.

Nothing like scaring people with tales of horror, apparently by a woman making her personal experience completely up.

Nothing like scaring people with tales of horror, apparently by a woman making her personal experience completely up.

… And the gathered Irony Meters rose as a single man to recall the Halifax explosion.

@Aelxa – Your measles experience illustrates the problem of understanding rare outcomes. The small sample size you are acquainted with prevents you from seeing the true complication rate. Approximately 1/1000 children who get measles die, and an additional approx 1/500 develop a serious neurological complication. As a neurologist, I’ve seen adults with residual neurological problems, so I know these are real.

disclaimer: I’ve worked for drug companies but never on vaccines against infectious disease.

@David

I pointed out this woman could not have experienced an ear infection because she slept through it apparently according to her according to her account. Ear infections are excruciately painful, I can say from experience I would rather give birth again than experience another single one of those ear infections. But children no longer suffer as I did, Medicine made ear tubes and antibiotics usage common, which has made scarred eardrums like mine a think of the past.

Then there was my entire grade school of over 1,000 children, no deaths and no residual effects.

Yes, children who are malnourished frequently can die or have side-effects, just like kids who get the vaccines of today can die or get side-effects. And as the CDC admits most side-effects are not reported.

Let me tell you about my son. He got his six month shots, then had a couple days of circulatory problems, like legs turning blue when I carried him in public in a chest carrier where his legs hung down. Another woman pointed it out to me while I was shopping in the grocery store, then he had blank moments where he would just stared at nothing. Then he arrested at home and I resuscitated him as I was a Respiratory Therapist who spent over a decade already on the Code Blue team and had certification in Pediatric Resuscitation. Afterwards, he just sat, not interacting, not responding to even banging pot lids together behind his head.

The Pediatric Neurologist did an EEG on my son, and told me the brain damage was so severe he would never talk or interact withe anyone at all, and I should just institutionalize my child. Well, I said “F” that, babies are more able to recover from physical damage because they are not yet fully developed, they are still fairly”plastic”. I spent years taking him to physical therapy, occupational therapy, speech therapy,etc

Today he can talk, mostly about only the things he is interested in, is Autistic, but he is able to play games on PlayStation with people on-line in other States. It has taken him until now, at 28 years old, to finally learn to make his favorite Annie’s Mac & Cheese from a box. And to not burn his pizza in the oven. He has not taken a shower or bath in over ten years, due to water on his skin feeling like acid burning. Yes, life is fun with a child who will never grow up completely and who has severe neurological problems.

His vaccine case was never reported, because our Pediatrician would not give me his records to do so. We switched Pediatricians, and he told the new Pediatrician that “the records are lost” when the new pediatric group requested the records.

So I have spent years working to improve his functioning ability, without help from any “Vaccine Award”, though he was severely damaged by a vaccine. I have no idea what vaccine was given to my son, or what was in it, who knows. I do know everytime he got a vaccine of any kind he was terribly sick, and the last one almost killed him.

Now every year his Pediatric Physician who specializes in Autism, tries to convince me to let them give my son the HPV vaccine, and I just look at them and say “No Way!”. My son says “No” also, as he has no desire to have further neurological problems beyond what he already deals with. Why give an Autistic person who has no interest in the opposite sex, never even wanted to hold a girl’s hand, a vaccine for a sexually transmitted disease? So they can check it off on a form at the Pediatrician office? I have tried to get him to go out and meet others like himself, but he prefers to talk to others without seeing them, as he can not determine from faces if someone is friendly, or angry. Yes, neurological damage sucks.

So Vaccines can cause death and terrible neurological damage, and if vaccines can be made safer by removing toxic ingredients then they should be.

To claim that since “consensus” says that vaccines are safe, that they are completely safe, is just going along like a lemming.

As a doctor you know Medicine is constantly changing as we learn more and more. It was not too long ago that the federal government said we should eat hydrogenated oil margarine, as it was safer for us and our hearts than butter. Now we know better, and eat grass-fed butter and virgin olive oil instead.

Disclaimer: I have worked in Medicine but never for a drug company. My brother has, and he does the computer programming, and told me four years ago how he had been made to drop certain participants records information from the inputted data, as they “mucked up” the results the doctors wanted in the study. So much for non-Independant studies by companies with a financial agenda.

You just skimmed the article, didn’t you?
One classmate lost hearing in both her ears.
Further along, it mentions that her then pregnant mother caught rubella, and when her sister was born, she died at just 13 days old.

@ Aelxa Hill

“Way back in 1950, back before the institution of those tiny tubes they put in the ears of children prone to ear infection, children like me suffered horribly.”

Aren’t they overdoing it, with all these tympanostomy tube insertions? Pretty prevalent, heh?… How necessary are all these surgical procedures?

Somehow, I’m not excessively happy about mine, you see. And I do not have any memory of having suffered horribly from chronic otitis media… But boy, do I have memories of me being harassed because I was being forbidden to swim because of these tubes I had to venerate.

Weirdly, my daughter has vivid memories of a specific otitis infection. She did suffer for one day and a half. It got treated, and it never became “chronic”, contrarily to all these ear infections I allegedly had and of which I have no memory. And my daughter doesn’t have tubes…

Just because a surgical procedure solves a problem doesn’t mean it should be generalized out of principle and become some kind of ritual for kids. And complications for tympanostomy tube insertions do exist. I do not complain about mine overly, as they are the least of my concerns nowadays and I do not care much about minor discomfort. But nonetheless, they do exist.

To me, one otitis infection is nothing chronic and should not justify tympanostomy tube insertions. Even at two infections, I do not believe that the benefit of this surgical procedure is massively beneficial.

That’s a personal appreciation

@Julian Frost

No, I read the entire article.

No one sleeps through a ear infection that bursts the eardrum, this story is that, a story.

I have 5 perforations of my right ear and 3 in my left ear and I wore ear plugs to swim as a child. It was worse when I took a shower, seemed I always got water in my ears and had severe pain then.

I spent time at the St Augustine School for the Deaf as a child, so I know about deafness, dude. Most of it was due to no treatment being available at the time, as I said before those little tubes in the ears to relieve pressure, and antibiotics eliminated the huge hazard of deafness from Measles.

In my case, the yearly ear infections occurred every Winter…..turns out I was allergic to Wool, and everything was Wool in Winter, from blankets to coats to gloves and sweaters, etc. I did not find out until I was 27 that I was allergic to wool.

And nothing is without risk, but I guess my town was very fortunate to have no child or adult deaths, and no serious repercussions, like deafness, occurring. A true miracle.

And vaccines would be fine, if they took the crap out of them, and made vaccines like they made the Small Pox vaccine I had back in 1960.

I refer you to the recent outbreak in NYC among the Orthodox Jews who do not vaccinate their children, nobody died or had horrible scarring or other effect from it..

Funny.
You could have gone for more large-scale events. Like the measles epidemics we get in Europe since the 2010’s. We got our 1 death per 1000 cases, as advertised.
Or more recently, the outbreak of measles in Samoa. It was mostly harmless. Emphasis on “mostly”.

Also, I am suspicious of this assertion of “nobody… had horrible scarring or other effect from it.”
Deaths would have been publicly reported, yes, but other medical issues?
Plenty of reasons they wouldn’t make the newspaper’s front page. Patient privacy, for one thing. Got a source for your assertion?

@Athaic

It happened back in 1960, so no, there is no reference to refer to.

But it was a well-to-do town, where houses cost $75,000 in 1960. Houses there now start at $1 Million for a teardown.

We had one physician in our town back in 1960, and kids were rarely ill.

When I was in boarding school in Europe back in 1967-1970, I caught Rubella which the entire school came down with. No one died, or had bad after effects. Maybe I was lucky, or perhaps we were all just very healthy and ate well.

Rubella is primarily a risk to the unborn (though adults can have more severe cases too). It’s not surprising none of the children died. The question is did you infect any woman in early pregnancy, and what harm did you do to the fetus if you did.

@ Aelxa Hill

1 – I think you answered to someone else than me.
Again, Samoa, last year, just before the covid19 outbreak. A “mostly harmless” measles outbreak.

2 –

And vaccines would be fine, if they took the crap out of them, and made vaccines like they made the Small Pox vaccine I had back in 1960.

As the smallpox vaccine had a whole lot more antigens – more different molecules – than the whole current vaccine schedule combined,
And as this vaccine, as a live-attenuated vaccine, is not the one I would have put forward as a paragon of causing lesser side-effects…
This is a very weird claim for someone who complains about antigen overload.

In my case, the yearly ear infections occurred every Winter…..turns out I was allergic to Wool, and everything was Wool in Winter, from blankets to coats to gloves and sweaters, etc.

Oh, that makes perfect sense.

@Athaic

Without antigens there is no vaccine possible, antigens are the viral or bacterial parts the immune system has to react to.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/multiple-vaccines-immunity.html

I complain about the toxins in vaccines, the adjutants used to get the immune system to take notice, since the very small incomplete viral particles they use in vaccines are unable to get the immune system to react to them, thus no antibodies are would be made.

Since the incomplete antigens used are so incomplete the immune system swiftly decides to drop the manufacturing of those antigens and deletes the information, and you become susceptible to the disease.

Why make vaccines this way? Because you are then in need of a “booster”, and they can sell another vaccine injection.

The Small Pox vaccine used antigen particles the immune system is able to sense and react to without using an adjutants. And the information is retained lifelong, protecting completely, a one time lifelong vaccine.

@Athaic

Yes, the Samoa measles outbreak was terrible.

Two babies died when the measles vaccine was mixed not with sterile water but instead an anesthetic, and the babies swiftly stopped breathing and their hearts stopped. It was a huge tragedy that brought great pain to their families.

One 15 year old girl, who had already had two Measles vaccinations in her life before the outbreak and was fully immunized, died from the Measles.In every Measles outbreak vaccinated individuals get the Measles because the antibody production by such incomplete antigens is so very poor. Since she had a pre-existing heart condition, Christol died in the hospital.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/05/its-broken-me-into-a-million-pieces-six-months-on-from-samoas-deadly-measles-outbreak

None of the articles I read said how many of the 5,000+ infected persons in Samoa who contracted the Measles had already been fully immunized, but in previous outbreaks elsewhere it is often 50% or more of the infected.

…but in previous outbreaks elsewhere it is often 50% or more of the infected.

And since vaccination rates are typically over 90%, this means that vaccines are excellent at stopping infection.

Aelxa Hill said, “None of the articles I read said how many of the 5,000+ infected persons in Samoa who contracted the Measles had already been fully immunized, but in previous outbreaks elsewhere it is often 50% or more of the infected.”
Hmmm.
It seems that only 8.3% of the Samoan measles victims were fully immunized.
Looking at the US recent outbreak history shows similar or less infection rate in the fully vaccinated.
Your “50% or more” opinion seems to be completely unfounded on any actual data.
.
Source:
Ref 27 at – https://virologydownunder.com/measles-in-samoa-a-couple-of-referenced-facts/
That reference:
Measles weekly report, Institute of Environmental Science and Research Ltd (ESR) and Ministry of Health, New Zealand Week 51: 14–20 December 2019
https://surv.esr.cri.nz/surveillance/WeeklyMeaslesRpt.php?we_objectID=5066
The actual report as pdf:
https://surv.esr.cri.nz/PDF_surveillance/MeaslesRpt/2019/WeeklyMeasles23122019.pdf

Immunization status of confirmed cases of measles 1 January-20 Dedember 2019
Those with known vaccination status:
Not vaccinated – 1671
Partially vaccinated – 84
Fully vaccinated – 158
Unknown status – 261
Total cases – 2174

Vaccination rate by known vaccination status.
Unknown status discounted.
∴ Total cases with known vaccination status = 2174-261 = 1913

Not vaccinated: 1671/1913 = 0.87349 = 87.4%
Partially vaccinated: 84/1913 = 0.04391 = 4.4%
Fully vaccinated: 158/1913 = 0.0825 = 8.3%
Not or partially vaccinated = 1755/1913 = 0.9174 = 91.7%

87.4% of the victims were not vaccinated.
91.7% of the victims were not vaccinated or only partially vaccinated.

This looks like the measles vaccine is very effective at preventing infection contrary to your “very poor” assessment.
I’m sure you will now change your opinion of the effectiveness of the MMR vaccine…

@Reality

Here is a Measles outbreakbin Israel…..

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/67/wr/mm6742a4.htm

A fully immunized soldier brought back the Measles from visiting the Ukraine, and all the infected were fully immunized.

Here is a Measles outbreak in a high school……

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646939/

70% of the infected were immunized.

Let me just throw in Mumps outbreaks among the vaccinated……

https://jvi.asm.org/content/86/1/615

Another measles outbreak among the vaccinated paper….

https://academic.oup.com/aje/article-abstract/129/1/173/58793?redirectedFrom=PDF

Here is an outbreak in NY caused by a fully vaccinated person in 2011, who infected four other persons, two of whom were fully vaccinated….

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/04/measles-outbreak-traced-fully-vaccinated-patient-first-time

Here is a measles outbreak in a fully vaccinated school……

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM198703263161303

Want to tell me again that I am incorrect when I say 50% of the infected can be vaccinated persons?

The vaccines they are making now are crap, the original Small Pox and Polio protect 100% and life-long protection. The new stuff is a complete joke.

This looks like the measles vaccine is very effective at preventing infection contrary to your “very poor” assessment.
I’m sure you will now change your opinion of the effectiveness of the MMR vaccine…

Reality, all you will get from Aexla Hill is some more goalpost moving. I think I mentioned elsewhere that Aexla has an over-inflated opinion of her own expertise.

@ Chris Preston

all you will get from Aexla Hill is some more goalpost moving.

I eventually noticed that, too, and I’m not the sharpest bulb in the drawer, debate-wise.

Although, I feel some irony that Aexla Hill just advocated in an answer to met above for the use in vaccines of complete pathogens instead of isolated/synthetic antigens.
So, by example, she should be in favor of the live-attenuated oral polio vaccine over the inactivated polio vaccine.
She did present the smallpox vaccine as the example to follow.

She has a very odd definition of “safe” vaccine.

You have a point with your first and third cites. But only those.
Cite 2:

Here is a Measles outbreak in a high school…
70% of the infected were immunized.

And 98% of the students were vaccinated. That means the 2% of unvaccinated were 15 times as likely to get infected.

Your fourth cite dates back to 1989. And according to https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4418682/

In 1989, the Committee of Infectious Disease of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) assessed trends of infection and vaccine failure for measles. Because most cases had been reported in older school-aged children, the committee recommended that a second dose be given at entrance to middle/junior high school, at approximately 11 or 12 years of age.

In other words, instances like that led to the introduction of a second MMR on the schedule.
Cite 5 has the title Measles Outbreak Traced to Fully Vaccinated Patient for First Time.
Cite 6 dates back to 1985, which once again, is before the introduction of the booster dose.
Like so many other antivaxxers, you downplay the effectiveness of vaccination.

I see that Aelxa cites a 1985 outbreak in Waltham, Massachusetts and a 1987 outbreak in Corpus Christi, Texas as supposed evidence of the ineffectiveness of the measles vaccine. But both those incidents were before the addtion of a second dose to the schedule.

An outbreak of almost 30,000 cases in 1990 led to a renewed push for vaccination and the addition of a second vaccine to the recommended schedule. No more than 220 cases were reported in any year from 1997 to 2013, and the disease was believed no longer endemic in the United States.[16][17][18] In 2014, 667 cases were reported.

This change was needed because a single dose is only about 93% effective in producing immunity while a booster raises that to about 97%, which is above the 95% threshold needed for herd immunity.

This gives her apparent evidence to support her nirvana fallacy.

@ Julian Frost

The highly touted theory of herd immunity says when 60% of the herd has antibodies to the disease, then others without antibodies are protected.

But when the antibody production is so poor, even with full immunization of two shots? And almost all of the infected immunized in all of the studies I cited were fully immunized with two shots, and thus they became spreaders of the Measles.

Even in a fully immunized school with both shots, children came down with the disease, showing how poor modern vaccines are in protecting.

When you are immunized you think you are protected, and are safe from the disease, and thus you would not worry about contracting and spreading disease. Invariably the cases of the Measles in the US all come from overseas, either visiting the US or Americans who went overseas and brought it home.

There are no pockets of Measles in the US, it always comes from overseas. And before it was only the unimmunized who brought it. Now it does not matter if you are immunized, your antibody level can be too low to be effective.

These vaccines are weak and filled with crap that is toxic, if the Small Pox vaccine had been like these, Small Pox would never been eradicated.

@Aelxa Hill:

The highly touted theory of herd immunity says when 60% of the herd has antibodies to the disease, then others without antibodies are protected.

Citation needed. I would guess that’s when a protective effect starts to be noticed.

But when the antibody production is so poor, even with full immunization of two shots?

Poor? A seroconversion rate of over 90% from one shot is not poor, by any stretch of the imagination.

And almost all of the infected immunized in all of the studies I cited were fully immunized with two shots.

False. You didn’t check.

Even in a fully immunized school with both shots…

False. The cases you mentioned involving schools were before the introduction of the second MMR dose.

Bottom line: the MMR vaccine is highly effective, with a seroconversion rate of over 95% for two doses, which although not 100%, is still excellent. The problem is that measles is an exceptionally virulent disease, which is why it sometimes gets through.

Aelxa, the Hippocratic oath (“do no harm” appears in one version) is still pledged in one form or another by some doctors; others take a different pledge and still others none at all. My med school class was not administered the Hippocratic oath, so I am free to give vaccines and other nasty stuff. 😀

“…I challenge you to consume regular amounts of Aluminum beyond the “expected” amounts from air, water and food. A tiny 1/2 cm square of Aluminum foil should do the trick”

I wouldn’t dream of depleting your headgear.

Props though for bringing up Semmelweis. I’m sure none of us here have ever heard of the man before. It’s a fab object lesson, but for real relevance you should have mentioned Galen.

*I am currently rereading a book about medicinal plants used by the Plains Indians. It’s remarkable to consider the array of toxins contained in their traditional remedies, like locoweed and native Euphorbia species, not to mention the holistic aspects of medical care involving things like putting willow sticks down someone’s throat to force vomiting and the expulsion of “harmful” green bile. They must have been anticipating Semmelweis.

@Dangerous Bacon

Since I have no Aluminum in my house, there is no headgear to “deplete”. I got rid of all aluminum in the house back in the 1970s when questions were already being raised about Aluminum, sucka.

You just do not want to increase your Aluminum body load and cause Alzheimers to occur faster, you know exactly how toxic Aluminum is to the brain. I hope you sock away enough money to afford a nice assisted living center with attached nursing home.:-)

Actually the Native Americans (they are not Indians, America was not the India Columbus was shooting for) used willow sticks bark to make a drink for pain. Salicylic Acid remember….Aspirin came original from willow bark before it was synthesized.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/bjh.14520

Actually the Native Americans (they are not Indians, America was not the India Columbus was shooting for)

Perhaps you should refrain from dictating to people what they should prefer to be called.

@Narad

Since I live next to a huge Reservation and personally know many Native Americans, a few whom I went to university with. I can tell you that they hate being called “Indians” and prefer Native American.

Perhaps you come from a different reservation and prefer to be called an “Indian” instead of Native American?

Since I live next to a huge Reservation and personally know many Native Americans, a few whom I went to university with. I can tell you that they hate being called “Indians” and prefer Native American.

Again assuming arguendo that you are not simply making things up, perhaps you should also learn not to generalize from anecdata. I’m not sure at the moment whether there is anything more recent than the 1995 poll, but then again, it only goes to show that you are predictably full of shit.

And, of course, you ignore the bleeding obvious, which is to — when relevant — use the tribal name. This naturally leads to the 64¢ question: Who lives in your conveniently adjacent “huge Reservation”?

Eric Hamp, Harry Smith, you’re not.

Wow, you have a fully-functional airlock in your house?

I mean, how else could you keep out the most common element in the Earth’s crust except by totally excluding all dirt?

Or do you really mean that you don’t have any aluminum pots or foil?

@Justa Tech

Since aluminum is not seen in Nature uncombined, even without an airlock there is no Aluminum in my house. 🙂

No bauxite. No gibbsite, boehmite or diaspora which bauxite is the aggregate of either , none of them are Aluminum, though Aluminum is made from them.

I purchase no Aluminum, and am purchasing less processed foods every year due to the use of Aluminum in packaging.

I prefer to get any Aluminum via simple plants as my grandparents did.

@Narad

I do not call them by their tribe since…

One, that is our white man’s name for them.

And Two, that would identify where I live.

I recently met some Lumbee tribe members who were visiting the Reservation I live next to, so I will mention that they also prefer white people call them Native American rather than being called “Indians”.

I also have a Sociology degree, plus a Fine Arts degree. One of my fellow pottery class students is a world-renown potter who help re-discover the ancient techniques his ancestors used to make pottery. A small 4 inch pot of his now goes for almost $1,000. He gave me a 24 inch high pot as a gift.

You can believe all you want and what you want about me, I do not give a fig for your opinion of me. After 66 years of living in multiple countries I have personally known royalty (one princess and one baroness in my class), had a famous defrocked priest, Gabriel Longo, as a school advisor, and generally spend my time in University libraries reading and studying even at my age.

The day I stop reading and learning is the day I die.

@ Aelxa Hill

“No bauxite. No gibbsite, boehmite or diaspora which bauxite is the aggregate of either , none of them are Aluminum, though Aluminum is made from them.”

That honestly sounds like some kind of unhealthy obsession. Really.

People have a right to choose what they will be called, whether it is their personal name or their ethnic group or nation. Native American is the preferred (PC) term at this time, but America’s indigenous peoples are not nearly as opposed to the word Indian per se as Aelxa makes them out to be.

For instance, I grew up in Pawhuska, Oklahoma in the middle of the Osage Reservation in what had previously been the Indian Territory. A couple years ago I drove through for some sightseeing and just missed the National Indian Taco Championship.

https://www.travelok.com/listings/view.profile/id.18776/25915

It draws participants from around the country who don’t mind having their food labeled as “Indian”.

And I lived for many years in Albuquerque, where a major spring event is the Gathering of Nations Pow-Wow.
https://www.gatheringofnations.com/event-info.aspx

This features the Miss Indian World Contest and the Indian Traders Market.

On the other hand, my congresswoman, Deb Haaland

is a 35th generation New Mexican who is an enrolled member of the Pueblo of Laguna, and also has Jemez Pueblo heritage. After running for New Mexico Lieutenant Governor in 2014, Haaland became the first Native American woman to be elected to lead a State Party.

Personally, the many native people I worked with over the years would identify their tribe or pueblo and then I would call them by their first name or refer to their job title.

I grew up next to the second largest reservation in the US, now live next to a totally different one, worked in IHS clinics, and did my MPH with six Dine’ students and I can readily assure you – many prefer or demand to be called American Indian. Especially native veterans.

I do not call them by their tribe since…

One, that is our white man’s name for them.

You’re really outdoing yourself in Screaming Idiocy category. Some sort of war on orthography? Iron Eyes Cody was uppity?

Perhaps you should adopt the rattle as your primary form of “communication.”

@Dorit

Considering that the boarding school was on top of a mountain in the middle of a forest with no public transportation, plus we were not in contact with anyone who was not working at the school, and the teachers, etc all lived on campus…neither I nor anyone else at the school infected anyone off-campus.

The idea of the school was to focus on school, there was no television at all, and no radio unless you were in the upper grades.So there was no social contact but once every two months, when the upper grades were taken 2 hours by school vehicles to the closest city for shopping and theater.

@Julian Frost

What I wrote was not false, I wrote ALMOST all the infected were fully immunized. I did not claim they were all fully immunized.

I do not need a citation for a theory “consensus” says is true. Go look up the theory yourself.

https://financialpost.com/opinion/junk-science-week-vaccinating-the-herd

Here is an article above, where it discusses herd theory, but the interesting part is the link on the bottom to read the 1967 handout from the Public Health Service of the US. Just read the first paragraph…..

Regarding Measles….”Complications are infrequent, and, with adequate medical care, fatality is rare”

And the third page of the handout discusses The Theory of Herd Immunity that Hedrich developed and published in 1930, herd immunity occurred at 55% according to Hedrich.

This next article was very interesting to read, and has multiple medical journal references you could check out…..

https://financialpost.com/opinion/lawrence-solomon-the-untold-story-of-measles

The US Measles Mortality Rate graph at the beginning of the article shows mortality from the measles had been dropping precipitously well before any measles vaccine was developed. Showing the usual wave form of infection.

I know you poo-poo these articles, so go to it.

@Aelxa:

I wrote ALMOST all the infected were fully immunized.

Actually, what you wrote was:

…almost all of the infected immunized in all of the studies I cited were fully immunized with two shots.

With TWO SHOTS. And no they weren’t. The 1985 and 1987 case reports were BEFORE the introduction of the second dose. So no, most were not immunized with two shots.

As for your two cites in the Financial Post (Are you kidding me? That’s not a medical journal!), they were written by Lawrence Solomon,whose name is well-known to readers here.

w.r.t. the measles mortality rate, Solomon is pulling a dishonest trick. Advances in healthcare meant that people who would have been killed by the measles were surviving. Only the introduction of measles vaccines sent the incidence rates into freefall.

PS. The details keeps putting my name as my WordPress name. If you see a comment by “AutismJungle”, that’s me, I’m not trying to sockpuppet.

@Julian Frost

You are wrong……

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646939/?page=3

Look at page 436, it says the the April 1984 School outbreak some children had more than one dose of Measles vaccine, and the graph on the page states six of the infected children had two or more vaccinations with the Measles vaccine.

The other study stated some of the children had two vaccinations with Measles vaccine, due the physicians recommending it, but did not document how many had two vaccinations with Measles vaccine. Try reading the studies.

Solomon is pulling a dirty trick? And by saying the medical care was helping people survive the Measles? Where does that come from? Are we to assume no healthcare exists on Earth, we have not progressed beyond the 19th Century?

You are making no sense at all, dude.

I referred you to the Public Health Service Handout, which stated death was rare, and complications infrequent. The Public Health Service includes the CDC, the NIH, HHS, etc. It was not the author of the article that wrote the 1960s PHS Handout. I do not care if you dislike the author of the article, I referred you to the wording of the handout.

One measles vaccination started in 1963.

And two doses of the measles vaccine did become standard in 1989, but many physicians were already doing two measles vaccinations way before 1989, which is why those two papers mention students getting two or more doses of measles vaccine back in 1984.

@Aelxa, “some” is not “most”, not even close.

Solomon is pulling a dirty trick? And by saying the medical care was helping people survive the Measles?

Yes. Firstly, it overlooks the fact that death is not the only possible negative outcome of measles. Deafness, brain damage, lung damage, immune suppression, meningitis, eye disorders, and Subacute Sclerosing Panencephalitis, which can kill its victims years later, are all possible complications of measles.

Secondly, it disregards that measles vaccine sent cases plummeting, by well over 90%. The old cliché of “prevention is better than cure” holds very strongly.

Even though the MMR is not perfect, it is an excellent preventative that has saved millions of lives and reduced the odds of sequelae hugely.

Wool may not be a common allergen, but IS an allergen. Here is a paper on it……

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4207589/

Just because something is rare foes not mean it , does not exist. Plus, I was diagnosed with wool allergy by a conventional Pulmonologist, not a woo-woo allergist.

My allergy is to the inhaled fibers, it will trigger an asthma attack in me.

On the other hand I can wear and have no reaction are all to boiled wool garments.

@ Aelxa Hill

“My allergy is to the inhaled fibers, it will trigger an asthma attack in me.”

I’m amazed you’re still alive.

Back when I was taking a year-long seminar on Old Irish (once a week, 3 hours),* there were two undergrads and four graduate students; all of the latter had taken it the year before, as well. One time, when there were only one or two of us, Prof. Eric Hamp decided to simply opine that felt had really been discovered on St. Kilda.

^* One time, I was the only student. I don’t recall what we talked about, and I only know one sentence of Old Irish, and there was a fight whether this satisfied my language requirement (the swimming requirement was another problem — I didn’t complete it until I found a woolen [oh-ho!] suit from a fantastic men’s vintage store), because the durians in admin forced me to prove that there was a body of literature in the language. There’s a cassette tape from the language lab somewhere in my stored belongings, it they still exist.

RFK Jr is right about the murder of his dad and uncle by CIA. But he hasn’t contributed anything to that understanding, merely finally admitted in public what he and his family have always understood in private.

Wrong on nearly everything else, including vaccines and covid.

About a decade ago I heard RFK Jr speak in person on ecological concerns. He said “there’s enough natural gas to replace all the coal.” The audience applauded. During the question time I asked if he had bothered to look at the geologists who point out that conventional nat. gas peaked in the US in 1973, that coal is in decline (also due to depletion) and fracked gas has been exaggerated in its reserves to boost share values of certain companies. He said he had no idea about the geology.

I assume growing up knowing what was done to his family and they couldn’t really do anything about it probably was extremely traumatic.

The motive why his uncle was removed from office is obvious but uncomfortable to admit. President Kennedy announced the end to the Cold War, withdrawal from Vietnam, normalization with Cuba, refused to start a nuclear war (several times, but especially in October 1962), negotiated a treaty to end atmospheric nuclear testing, successfully challenged the power of the steel industries in the US, supported decolonialization in Africa, a balanced foreign policy in the Middle East, among other accomplishments. And the “Warren Commission” is not even the official story any more — the 1978 House Select Committee on Assassinations admitted the “one gunman” claim was a hoax but declined to investigate further. The Warren Commission’s most energetic member was Allen Dulles, fired by Kennedy as CIA director for lying to him (among other reasons). Having a virulent political enemy be the defacto chief investigator of one’s murder is usually considered a conflict of interest.

Mark-the most persuasive evidence I have seen that illuminates JFKs killing was presented in a UK Channel 5 documentary ‘JFKs Secret Killer;The Evidence’ broadcast on Saturday 10 November 2015. For those interested, in short, Lee Harvey Ostwald- first shot. Second shot by an unknown ( to us) member of the armed protection provided by the secret service. In his alarm and panic his rifle went off and hit JFK.The forensic as well as circumstantial evidence is compelling.

Oswald was given a test in police custody that showed a lack of powder (from a gun) on his hands. There is zero evidence that he fired any gun anywhere that day and lots that he did not. There is also zero evidence that JFK was shot by the Secret Service (although there WERE personnel in Dealey Plaza using false S.S. credentials – many witnesses to that, and a reason the agency switched its identity cards shortly after).

The real issue for the coup was the motive, more important than the physical evidence although that is important.

It is also worth noting that most of the Warren Commission members later admitted the report was lying.

Off Topic,

The FDA recently responded to a citizen petition from MJD (Docket No. FDA-2007-P-0243 – formerly 2007P-0486/CP1) which was filed 13 years ago. I simply asked for a regulation to reduce the allergenic proteins in infant products formed from natural rubber latex. A summary of their response is below:

“We received your comment to the docket for this citizen petition dated July 17, 2017, stating that we failed to adequately address the hazards of natural rubber latex in infant products and that we should apply the same safety standards for natural rubber latex in infant products compared to medical products. We do not believe we need to take any action with respect to natural rubber latex in infant products at this time because there is no evidence provided by your petition, nor do we have any other evidence to support such action. We will continue to monitor this issue to determine what actions, if any, should be taken in the future.”

MJD says,

Science-based medicine is reactive while the general public often demands a proactive approach.

@ Orac’s minions,

Now do you understand why a growing number of Americans are frustrated with the inertia of science-based medicine?

“.because there is no evidence provided by your petition, nor do we have any other evidence to support such action…”

There is inertia? If there is no evidence whatsoever, there SHOULD be inaction.

Thanks for your response, Denice.

@ Orac,

The FDA refuses to protect infants from repeated exposure to natural rubber latex (Hevea Brasiliensis), what’s the point of latex-free hospitals?

MJD says,

Doctors and nurses were able to sue hospitals after developing severe latex allergies. Infants that develop severe latex allergies through repeated exposure (e.g., pacifiers and bottle nipples) aren’t so lucky.

@ MJD

“Science-based medicine is reactive while the general public often demands a proactive approach.”

OK. Be pro-active yourself: just list down every little thing that may go wrong with infant products. Be exhaustive… I’ll double-check if you left out anything that may go wrong.

Down to work, Big Boy! Be proactive!

F68.10 writes,

“I’ll double-check if you left out anything that may go wrong.”

MJD says,

Thank you! Why does your username carry out to ten-hundredths? I need to know that you can be trusted F68.10.

@ MJD

“I need to know that you can be trusted F68.10.”

No, you don’t.

What counts is what I write down. Not whether or not I can be trusted. I’m no medical doctor.

@Michael J Dochniak

First of all, hospitals are not Latex-free throughout. Every single hospital Physical Therapy Department uses those damn Latex bands for exercises. Even private Physical Therapy centers that are not hospital owned used the damn things, which means I can never step foot in a Physical Therapy dept .

I am allergic to Latex, from working as a Respiratory Therapist for decades. And one of my injectable meds has to be special ordered in order to supply ne with a Latex-free medication.

Why the FDA still allows the use of Latex in medications is the bigger question. Imagine taking your medication and almost dying.

@Dorit

Your citation said …” estimated ….0.6% of Aluminum injected IM. …reaches the bloodstream”.

My mouse study shows a hell of alot more than 0.6% reaches the bloodstream through mobilization via the lymph system which dumps toxins from the tissues and muscles into the bloodstream over time. It is completely applicable as to citation.

I did not know anything about Hooker, I found the 2004 Study just today and wondered why it was retracted, then found out about the data pruning problem.

The 2004 study was retracted because it came to light that they “fixed” the data, a outright no-no to do. Granted it was positive in African American boys, but leaving that data in would have resulted in a closer look and further studies into vaccines and Autism.

It took 10 years before anyone looked at the raw data and questioned why a whole group was excluded, for having no birth certificates available, really?

So here have another study that shows the massive increases in Autism, and they use records from 1931 onward….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27301968/

This study is rather long, since it covers almost 90 years of data on Autism.

But I am sure the authors names are on your list of “trash” study authors…if not be sure to add them. Quite a neat way of eliminating all studies that contradict your world view, a certain author was involved. I am sure that author list is getting rather long now as the years go by.

The article you cite is available only on a subscription basis, but the abstract says nothing about vaccination or about “massive increases in Autism”, so it’s reasonable to wonder how honest you are about its conclusions.

Moreover, antivaxers typically don’t claim lead and arsenic are “vaccine toxins”*, and mercury (in the form of thimerosal preservative) was removed from vaccines almost 20 years ago with no effect on autism rates, so the heavy metal argument, if valid, has zero to do with vaccination.

As to a mouse study being “completely applicable as to citation” – even if you’re accurately paraphrasing its conclusions (again, doubtful), you need an education on the hazards of extrapolating rodent data to humans.

First though you should read Orac’s article on the dangers of “doing my own research” and then arrogantly assuming you know better than the professionals who do actual research.

*there are probably exceptions.

@Dangerous Bacon

Thimerosal is “found in vaccines for influenza” in 2020…….

https://www.publichealth.org/public-awareness/understanding-vaccines/goes-vaccine/

“Thimerosal is about 50% Mercury by weight” according to the FDA, and is still in multidose flu vaccine……..

https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/safety-availability-biologics/thimerosal-and-vaccines

In 1989 Merck knew babies were getting 87 times the recommended amount of mercury in vaccines…….

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2005-feb-08-fi-vaccine8-story.html%3f_amp=true

The point about Arsenic and Lead is they were known toxins and still took decades to remove from common everyday items. Using other known metal toxins is the same as using Lead and Arsenic….a completely stupid thing to do.

@Aelxa, in the same way table salt isn’t explosive like sodium and toxic like chlorine, thimerosal isn’t mercury. In addition, thimerosal is metabolised to ethylmercury and quickly excreted.

@Julian Frost

And in a link I posted before, while ethylmercury is excreted from the bloodstream faster, it leaves a huge percentage of mercury behind in the brain….while methylmercury is excreted slower, it leaves little mercury behind in the brain.

Different concentrations in different organs damage those particular organs more where the higher concentrations are.

This means ethylmercury damages brains more, and ethylmercury damages Livers more.

This means ethylmercury damages brains more, and ethylmercury damages Livers more.

Again, is English really your native language? If you want to worry about EtHg, the kidneys are the place to start.

@Narad

I wrote “methylmercury damages livers more”, as I wrote before my spellcheck keeps changing things. My English is just fine, my phone on the other is a PITA.

@Aelxa:

And in a link I posted before, while ethylmercury is excreted from the bloodstream faster, it leaves a huge percentage of mercury behind in the brain.

Which one? You have posted multiple links.

This study is rather long, since it covers almost 90 years of data on Autism.

You think slightly over 12 pages of text and tables is “rather long”?

So here have another study that shows the massive increases in Autism, and they use records from 1931 onward….

No, they don’t. You think the ADDM existed in 1931?

Yoo-hoo.

Anyway, the new titanium fixation isn’t getting the merriment that it really deserves. Who’d a thunk that Michael Nesmith’s mom was so high up the chain of command?

@Narad

Autism was first used in 1911, though it wad used to describe a different mental condition that involved excessive fantasy life……

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3757918/#idm139733373175888title

The first person diagnosed with what we think of as Autism was born in 1933, Donald Triplet, and diagnosis by Dr Leo Manner in 1938.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/magazine-35350880

Autism was recognized even in the late 1920s though not called Autism at that point in time. In the 12 page study, link I posted previously, they explain how they used patient records of symptoms to correctly identify patients who we now call Autistic. And even with a different diagnosis label, patient records clearly identify Autism via symptomology.

Here’s the deal: If you grovel, I’ll give you the paper that you’ve been trying to cite. Mark Blaxill is the second author.

And guess what really releases mercury and lead into the atmosphere that many poorer people have to live near?

Coal Power Plants !!!

https://blog.arcadia.com/15-key-facts-statistics-power-plant-pollution/#:~:text=In%202016%2C%20coal%20plants%20released,720%20tons%20of%20carbon%20monoxide.

Mercury is released during coal combustion: In general, power plants emit 50 percent of the mercury released into the air, and 75 percent of the acid gases released. That accounts for 40 to 52 tons of it per year. Mercury vapor is highly toxic, and can easily enter water and be converted by bacteria into a neurotoxin known as methyl mercury, which can cause seizures, cerebral palsy, and even death. The Mercury and Air Toxic Standards that went into effect in 2011 aim to limit how much pollution coal-fired power plants can emit; after some delay, a final finding was released in 2016 supporting the benefits of reducing mercury and other toxins.

An uncontrolled coal plant releases many harmful pollutants: These include about 114 pounds of lead, traces of uranium, and 720 tons of carbon monoxide. Also, 220 tons of hydrocarbons are released, which trigger reactions that form ozone at low altitudes. A plant also releases 225 pounds of arsenic in a year, a carcinogenic compound that affects drinking water. If there are 50 parts per billion of arsenic or more in a water sample, one in 100 people may get cancer by drinking it.

But perhaps if Aelxa has a really good HEPA filter on all her house air that protects from aluminum containing dust, it will also protect her from mercury, lead, and arsenic.

@squirrelelite

Oh yes, Alexa does have multiple free-standing HEPA units, plus one HEPA has built-in UV light to deal with mold. Also I put THE A filters on my air-conditioners. Also I use PUR water filters to remove the Aluminum that is in the water, from the Aluminum flocculant used to remove particulate matter from the water at the city water treatment plant. Thankfully they do not put fluoride in our city water.

I am the owner of two copies of the MTHFR gene C677T, which makes my detoxification system and methylation system work at only 20% on a good day. So naturally I do all I can to reduce the toxic crap my body has to process from the air, food and water.

I do not live near any coal-burning power plants, we use water and dams to make electricity where I live. There is no mining etc either, and I live far from any traffic. I live in a fairly clean area, and I strive to keep it that way. I even use an electric mower to avoid exhaust fumes, which make me terribly sick.

But that is the joy of having two C677T, crap other people tolerate and put up with, I avoid as much as possible.

@ Aelxa Hill

“I am the owner of two copies of the MTHFR gene C677T, which makes my detoxification system and methylation system work at only 20% on a good day.”

I am getting more and more “skeptical” of all these claims I hear concerning MTHFR. For an orphan disease with unknown prevalence, we sure see a lot of people bitching about MTHFR.

Ueland and Rozen claim there are roughly 85 cases of people recorded with this problem overall in the literature. I’m pretty sure there are more cases of factitious disorders imposed on another recorded in the literature… Given the very little amount of credibility I do have with my ordeal, I do not feel very inclined granting you a lot of credibility for a double whammy on MTHFR.

@ Narad

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Getting fed up with this tendency people have to magnify all their little problems into life-threatening conditions.

It’s simply going to remain true to form and ignore the matter, Like sands through the hourglass, so are the trolls of our lives.

P.S. I think I have a place to stay, which is particularly helpful given that I’m now being kicked out early and the nurse that triaged me at a recent appointment had previously worked in the homeless racket in the city and warned me against it if at all possible. Bedbugs, etc.

You know that you have complete junk when the first two authors on an epidemiology paper are an atmospheric geochemist and management consultant.

What amuses me is all the negative comments , etc…..and none of you realized it was the wrong link until today.

I have stated that at least three times, Bitsy. Fuck off.

How many people who claim to have MTHFR mutations have had that confirmed by reliable testing? And of that group, how many have had reliable testing to confirm actual defects in “toxin” processing?

I suspect the number is very, very small. Meantime, sellers of air purifiers and other “detoxification” devices as well as supplement pushers are getting rich off people who don’t need any of this stuff.

@Dangerous Bacon

The MTHFR test was ordered by my Pain Management Physician back in 2012, and other tests then confirmed the toxicity which was causing medication problems.

The HEPA filters and water filter were prescribed by my Pulmonologist back in 1985 to deal with my allergies to chemicals, metals and mold.

Neither prescribed any vitamins, except now my Primarycare Physician recommends a daily vitamin pill. Gee, is she a supplement pusher then? No.

@ Aelxa Hill

“The MTHFR test was ordered by my Pain Management Physician back in 2012, and other tests then confirmed the toxicity which was causing medication problems.”

And a relative of mine had a shitload of allergies. All the tests confirmed she was allergic to almost everything. The day she moved away and started binge drinking with her low-life friends, all that went away.

So, may I ask… what kind of “MTHFR test” was performed? For what motive? You have to exclude quite a lot of situations to nail down MTHFR as the “real cause” of pain management issues…

“The HEPA filters and water filter were prescribed by my Pulmonologist back in 1985 to deal with my allergies to chemicals, metals and mold.”

And are you allergic to anything “natural”? Cats? Pollen? Stuff like that?

“Neither prescribed any vitamins, except now my Primarycare Physician recommends a daily vitamin pill. Gee, is she a supplement pusher then? No.”

The problem is not there. The problem is that supplement pushers piggy-back on the ideas on relatively respectable physicians who “try” “various” “things”. This kind of mental manipulation by supplement pushers is all too common, and physicians need not be supplement pushers to have some kind of pro-nature/anti-chemistry bias.

This doesn’t answer the question of whether a reputable lab found an MTHFR abnormality that could be reliably linked to a deficiency in eliminating “toxins”.

One could also question what testing found nonspecific allergies to chemicals and metals, and wonder how HEPA air and water filters magically alleviated them.

Congrats if in fact you have avoided paying $$ for the myriad supplements alleged to “detoxify” the body in ways the liver and kidneys supposedly can’t. Lots of people with similar beliefs are prey to these scam artists.

One could also question what testing found nonspecific allergies to chemicals and metals, and wonder how HEPA air and water filters magically alleviated them.

I have passed to the default position of not believing anything Aexla Hill writes. They have produced so many fantastical inventions, that I am convinced she can no longer separate fantasy from reality. I have got tired of the whack-a-mole of her ever increasing number of claims. Some people just want to believe themselves to be special.

@ Chris Preston

“I have passed to the default position of not believing anything Aexla Hill writes.”

100% agree.

@Dangerous Bacon

A MTHFR gene test is a regular test drawn at the hospital and sent out for gene sequencing to either Lab eitherr Quest, depending on what lab the hospital uses for any advanced testing the hospital does not do in-house.

All the tests I get done are draw at the hospital and run in-hospital or by Quest or Lab Corp. IgG and IgE bloodtests are common regular everyday blood tests for allergies and sensitivities. Regular physicians and order them

I do not know any woo-woo labs, physicians and other nonsense you all keep writing about. I neither have the time nor energy to waste on these anti-vaxxer sites you all keep writing about, the papers I read and posted were ones I had only seen gor the first time was the day I posted them here.

You all are clueless about chemicals and metals and their toxic effects on people, for some reason you seem to think they are fine, as one guy I know says….”the government would not allow them to sell something bad for us.”

Right, like I did not tell people Glyphosate was dangerous and caused Cancer 40 years ago, and now Monsanto is losing money left and right from Cancer lawsuits.

The human body is not made to detoxify all this crap that is being thrown at it, and people with gene variants who are less able to detoxify it get sick first, but the crap is building up and soon it will not matter what genes you possess.

Just like now, the atmospheric CO2 is so high, Global Warming is now is inevitable, and now everyone believes in Global Warming. Congratulations for being finally unable to deny the facts staring directly in your face.

Remember me in 15 years, when you are so sick from chemicals and metals you are no longer able to deny it and know I warned you to wake up about Aluminum and before the Titanium made holes in your brains and the brains of your loved ones.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but at that point it will do you no good at all, just like with CO2 today. Your “consensus” will not protect you from real life.

And vitamins are not a scam, real food has such poor vitamin levels in it from depleted soil and artificial fertilizers, that taking a daily vitamin is necessary as any physician would tell you.

My Cardiologist put me on CoQ10 because it slows down the progression of Heart Failure, which I developed from having COVID-19 damage my heart. I went from severe shortness of breath and unable to do anything other than sit quietly, to being able to walk through the supermarket and shop without being short of breath.

So vitamins and nutrients can improve body functions, way more than many medications can. And the ones I take are recommended to me by conventional physicians, not scam artists.

My Cardiologist put me on CoQ10 because it slows down the progression of Heart Failure, which I developed from having COVID-19 damage my heart.

Uh-huh. I presume you have will be able to make up before-and-after ejection fractions.

You must be sucking down an inordinate amount of cash from your insurer.

That is because 23andme is only interested in revealing the fact that you killed aunt Gertrude. Gotta recoup that overhead.

My bad;

(sb) that you impregnated then killed aunt Gurtrude, as one does. Don’t judge, my pregony is from Kentucky.

r/schrodinger’sIfuckedauntgertrudebutdidnotbutyeaiplowedthat

@Dangerous Bacon

Can a gene be reliably connected with a toxicity?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4413404/

Here is one on MTHFR and Arsenic…

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3943866/

A study about MTHFR and Folate Deficiency…..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4555142/

A lack of Folate affects development and maintenance of the brain and nervous system.

Without methylfolate, detoxification is impaired.

Just for the hell of it, here is a study showing infertile couples with MTHFR C677T or A1298C finally being able to conceive with methylfolate supplementation, how woo-woo is that……

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6086798/

Here is a 2020 study on MTHFR C677T increasing high blood pressure and giving Riboflavin, a B vitamin that is a Methylfolate cofactor, can decrease BP…..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6955829/

This next study is informative, go down to Section 4 Discussion, and read about various lab tests to confirm Chemical sensitivities and what genes the study found associated with MCS, FM, etc…….

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4387900/?report=reader

Another 2020 study showing genes, including C677T, found connected to chemical sensitives and connected to impaired xenobiologics (chemicals, metals,pesticides,etc) detoxification….

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6981591/

As I keep repeating genes variants affect everything from the fetus to chemical detoxification in adults, this is not new science.

@Narad

“sucking down an inordinate amount of cash from your insurer”….

First of all I do not get any money from my insurer, I pay them every month.

Wow, now you deny COVID-19 causes residual damage to Heart, Kidneys, Lungs , Liver, etc too, huh?

Another clueless COVID-19 denier is what you are.

85% of Hospitalized patients with COVID-19 suffer residual effects, and so do 20% of “mild” cases.

I had COVID-19 in March, and developed both heart and kidney damage. I have Asthma and did not develop any lung damage, which seems to be common for some reason among patients with Asthma, perhaps due to the Asthma medications I and other asthmatics take.

What tests the physicians order is up to them, they have done a number, from a Nuclear Medicine Stress test, Echocardiogram and next week a MRI of the Heart w/wo Contrast. And I am certainly not sending you my Echo results, dumbo.

My kidney damage is actually controlled with Sodium Bicarbonate, just simple baking soda. It raised my GFR from 50, which is Stage 3 Kidney Disease, up to a GFR of 72 in only two weeks, and that is only Stage 1 Kidney Disease. The Nephrologist did not require as many tests, thank goodness.

And taking a teaspoon of Baking soda dailystopped the continued damage to my kidneys, so all I need is to buy a small box of Arm & Hammer baking soda once every two months. Thank goodness, for the UBI Study they ran in Italy to prove that Sodium Bicarbonate works to prevent Kidney Disease progression, and improves GFR.

No prescription needed. The study was published December 2019……

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40620-019-00656-5

So pray you never get COVID-19, it can ruin the rest of your life, especially if you are dumb enough not to take seriously wearing a mask and physically distant from others. I caught it before wearing a mask was advised, and I wish I had known more than I did in mid-February.

@Narad

The MTHFR gene test is only one tiny gene sequence, and is included as part of the 23 and Me gene test. You get the MTHFR result in the complete printout they send you. Good luck in understanding it.

Personally, I would never recommend 23 and Me gene testing, they sell your gene information and everything else they have on you. How else do you think they keep the test so cheap?

“My kidney damage is actually controlled with Sodium Bicarbonate”

I actually had a long post about this and the merits of it but I’m drunk off my ass now and can not recreate — my tiny logitech keyboard ate the whole thing.

Anyways, I eat it every day; Baking soda good, I must take a dab after every swallow of beer {I tracked a certain delivery — they held it for two weeks before putting it onto the shelf; had beeradvocate 94 rating; buy it, it is disgusting; it is obvious what they are doing– the whole half of the store is dedicated to destroying craft beer; all mask-under-nosers too. fuck those people. I’m done.

https://youtu.be/Mj8sWaTagCE?t=1

@Aelxa Hill I am quite sure that you not get baking soda for kidney damage. It would be pure medical grade sodium bicarbonate. Raw material for baking soda is trona, a mineral. It can contain lots of aluminium.
Similar things apply for your personal testimonies concerning various diseases. Some people are lucky, some are unlucky. This is why one needs epidemiological studies.

@Aarno Syvaenen

You are incorrect, baking soda does NOT contain Aluminum.

It is Baking POWDER that contains Aluminum.

And the link in the post I wrote will take you to the double blind, large scale, multiple year medical study.

Try to read the medical study before commenting, and learn the difference between Baking Soda and Baking Powder.

@Aelxa Hill What is the difference anyway ? Cake is made with baking powder, and so cakes contain aluminium. So eating cakes should be a very dangerous activity.
Canada evaluated aluminium uptake of various groups:
https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/hc-sc/images/programs/consultation-aluminum-drinking-water/aluminum-eng-consultation.pdf
Go to table 1.
If one uses bioavaibility estimate of 1% for aluminium, one week of eating, breathing and drinking results a bigger aluminium load than vaccination

You get the MTHFR result in the complete printout they send you. Good luck in understanding it.

A four-column list of SNPs? Not too difficult, Bitsy.

@Aarno

What is the difference between baking soda and baking powder? You obviously do not bake. Baking soda needs an acid in the recipe to make bubbles and raise the cookies so they are light and fluffy, cookies are thin so not much raising is needed. Baking powder is a stronger bubble former, so cakes do not come out of the oven looking and feeling like bricks.

Since I have Celiac Disease, I do mot eat Wheat, and fo not eat cakes. The damn Titanium they put in icing now, including fount glaze makes it so I would not eat a cake anyway. I also fo not eat bromated anything so it will not block,the iodine my body needs.

I already went over this in other posts, my body doe not detoxify and eliminate metals and chemicals like other people can, so I avoid as much as possible. This means no grains since rice has high Arsenic, Corn has Glyphosate, etc.

You all can eat as much toxins as you want, bon appetit to you and good luck with that.

Amazing how people are so brain-washed into thinking you can keep increasing the amounts of chemicals and crap, and there will be no consequences. We are living in such a polluted world, the rain contains Glyphosate and you can not avoid it anywhere. Autism goes from 1 in over 2,000 kids, 1 in 36 kids but nobody will admit anything causes it. When putting living cells in a soup of crap will cause gene damage in a petre dish, but supposedly the same crap in our food, water and air is harmless to us.

Magical thinking indeed.

@ Alexa Hill

“Since I have Celiac Disease”

Wow! That too?

Did you ever try to compound all the odds of all your diseases and estimate the prevalence of your level of suffering? When you’ll have done the computation (I know you do not like numbers…), maybe we can have a little chat about a differential diagnosis.

Once upon a time, I did such a computation myself…

First of all I do not get any money from my insurer, I pay them every month.

It’s as though you’re probing the boundaries of slapstick.

@ Aelxa Hill

“First of all I do not get any money from my insurer, I pay them every month.”

I also paid my insurer every month. Doesn’t change the fact that I felt real pain for them given the amount of cash my insurer had to pay for treatments I never asked for in the first place.

Real pain…

@ Narad

“It’s as though you’re probing the boundaries of slapstick.”

All too true…

The HEPA filters and water filter were prescribed by my Pulmonologist back in 1985

Like, on a prescription pad?

@Narad

Yes, like on a prescription pad, my health insurance paid for the HEPA filter unit, it cost over $500 to add to the HVAC unit.

The water filter was out of my own pocket.

And my PUR system is a under the sink unit with a separate water spout at the side of the sink where some people have a sprayer unit.

Those tests were done by a company selling pills to chelate metals, and a weird pitcher unit of some kind was tested. If the tests were done by Consumer Reports or an Independant Lab not working for a company selling “chelating” pills, I might believe their spiel.

I wonder how a pitcher carbon filter unit can increase aluminum, Aluminum in the plastic of the pitcher? Anyway, that is not what I have as a filtering unit.

And my PUR system is a under the sink unit with a separate water spout at the side of the sink where some people have a sprayer unit.

Oh, well, as long as it’s under the sink, I’m sure it works differently.

Right, like I did not tell people Glyphosate was dangerous and caused Cancer 40 years ago,

Yah, very far ahead of the curve there. Was this while you were a respiratory therapist? It’s a natural connection.

@ Aelxa Hill

“You get the MTHFR result in the complete printout they send you. Good luck in understanding it.”

Your genome is quite huge. That you’ll find an abnormality in your personal genome is essentially a given for any human being on the planet. Narad already explained to you that your abnormality is fairly normal. That this element translates in a clinically significant disease is a much less trivial claim. One that you do put forward. And one that 23andMe explicitly warns against.

Good luck in understanding it.

@Aelxa Hill
It was not about difference between baking powder and baking soda but the fact that baking powder is used to make cakes. So instead of aluminium folio, the challenge is to eat cakes.
Next challenge is to live. Canadian government evaluated aluminium uptake of various groups:
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/programs/consultation-aluminum-drinking-water/document.html
Go to table 1.
I am quite sure that your body can detoxify. Paper you cited was about arsenic, about mice and about total ablation of the gene. I am afraid that a quack is after your money

@Aarno

The point is the aluminumis not naturally in drinking water, it gets added because they was Aluminum as a deflocculant, to clump with and settle out large particles floating in the water.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0130683

Unfortunately, this introduces Aluminum into the water supply that was not there before the water was treated.

And now they are turning to more soluble Aluminum Chlorohydrate, which leaves even higher amounts of Aluminum in drinking water…..

https://www.waterworld.com/home/article/16193412/aluminum-chlorohydrate

A Quack is after my money? Yeah, the people pushing aluminum are after my money for sure. I will pass on buy Aluminum foil, etc

I do not eat cake, or any grain, so I do not worry about how much Aluminum or Titanium, etc is in cakes.

If I do not consume it, then my body does not have to detoxify it.

How not consuming a product helps anyone make money? You must explain your logic to me, it just does not equate.

Baking powder and aluminium foil manufacturers are after your money. Quacks are after it, too. They are more expensive, tell you ridiculous things like your purification pathway is totally blocked and sell you detoxification. Actually metals, including mercury, lead and arsenic bind to proteins called metallothioneins. There are many other “purification pathways”.
Natural water does contain aluminium. End result of weathering of aluminium containing minerals is a compound called “elemental aluminium”, which is water soluble. So read again this:
https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/programs/consultation-aluminum-drinking-water/document.html
Go to table 2. It tells aluminium content of raw and treated drinking water. So your next challenge is stop drinking. Seriously, you should learn to quantify.

@Aarno

There are eleven aluminum smelters in Canada and zero bauxite minesm

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural-resources/minerals-mining/aluminum-facts/20510#L2

Bauxite is found in tropical and sub-tropical areas, such as Africa, South America and what is called Oceania.

It is mined overseas and brought to Canada for processing, it takes about 5 tons of Bauxite ore to make one ton of Aluminum….that leaves 4 tons of pollutioning residue.

All the aluminum is Canadian waters is due to pollution, Canada has no natural bauxite at all.

Try again, buddy.

@ Aelxa Hill

“All the aluminum is Canadian waters is due to pollution, Canada has no natural bauxite at all.”

Aluminium is the third most prevalent metal on Earth. And you’re telling me that Canada has zero?

Here are the production zones of aluminium in Canada

So yes, there is an industry with respect to aluminium. But the claim that there are no aluminium from natural sources in the environment is 100% bonkers.

Moreover, concentrations of inorganic aluminium have been going down in the US.

The point is the aluminumis [sic] not naturally in drinking water [sic], it gets added because they was Aluminum [[sic>] as a deflocculant, to clump with and settle out large particles floating [sic] in the water.

What in the fucking hell have you been reading? In any event, a cursory glance suggests that your PUR water filters increase aluminum content.

Bauxite is found in tropical and sub-tropical areas, such as Africa, South America and what is called Oceania

.

Ah, yes, subtropical Boddington.

re: Aluminum

I guess this stuff was right out, then. Babies typically didn’t work in the mines so no autism. But it is blamed for Parkinson’s:

were required to breathe in McIntyre Powder aluminum dust prior to each shift. Miners would undergo a mass “treatment” wherein canisters of McIntyre Powder aluminum dust would be dispensed via a compressed air system into the mine drys or specially constructed chambers. All ventilation would be stopped during the aluminum dust dispersal, and miners were instructed to inhale the black fog of respirable aluminum dust deeply to protect themselves against silicosis. The practice was mandatory and was given without medical supervision and in the absence of the prior informed consent of the miners. Tens of thousands of miners would have been exposed to McIntyre Powder aluminum dust during the 36 years that the program ran.

http://mcintyrepowderproject.com/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31532354/

@ F68.10, DB, Narad**, squirrelelite, ChrisP. others:

Gentlemen/ ladies, your deconstructions are outstanding and necessitated by the most recent influx of alt med material. Someone has to do it – at least part of the time. But wouldn’t it be lots more entertaining- if trolls dreamt up more creative beliefs and groundbreaking theories? SRSLY: an Italian doctor once postulated that cancer is a fungus! An anti-vaxxer imagined himself to be a character from Lord of the Rings! A woo-meister created a vegan and supplement based cure for grey hair ( photos available at his website)! You would think that scoffers in quarantine with time on their hands would at least make an effort to stand out from the crowd.SO….

Pro Tip
if you’re going to troll a SB website, don’t just repeat tired anti-vax tropes and woo that have been discussed and deconstructed dozens of times already by Orac and acquired by his followers so well that they could repeat them in their sleep We’ve heard it all, seen it all and dismissed it all. It’s categorised and archived for anyone who chooses to do a little research
Countering it is not a great exercise for minions: it’s too easy, it’s not a challenge.

** I’m glad to hear of this development

Speaking of I Do My Own Research, I ran into a commenter online who styles him/herself as “Vaccine Researcher” and who is following Forrest Maready (the guy who thinks vaccine toxins are giving today’s babies “crooked” expressions). No doubt this person has performed sophisticated research in an accredited facility and is published widely in non-predatory journals. I stand in awe.

As for sophisticated pandemic-era commentary, little could beat the antivax commenter with the following devastating rejoinder to a Snopes article on Judy Mikovits, “Snopes is for dopes.” (repeated after being invited to demonstrate any falsehoods in the Snopes article).

You are correct. Woo patter has gotten increasingly pedestrian.

Writing credible fiction is difficult. Plausibility and self-consistency are beyond their abilities. It is already quite an accomplishment for them to master ctrl-c/v and most stop their progression at that stage. You need to lower your expectations to avoid further disappointment.

“Writing credible fiction is difficult. Plausibility and self-consistency are beyond their abilities.”

There was a master, that within his fictional world, was pretty ‘self-consistent’:

We must be as stealthy as rats in the wainscoting of their society. It was easier in the old days, of course, and society had more rats when the rules were looser, just as old wooden buildings have more rats than concrete buildings. But there are rats in the building now as well. Now that society is all ferrocrete and stainless steel there are fewer gaps in the joints. It takes a very smart rat indeed to find these openings. Only a stainless steel rat can be at home in this environment.

― Harry Harrison, The Stainless Steel Rat

I need to comment here…
if I had CHF/ kidney issues, I wouldn’t be as worried about toxins as Alexa is but would want to make sure that I didn’t get the flu or pneumonia which can be avoided with vaccines. CHF can be manageable through meds, diet and other interventions. Several family members have lived with it for many years and recent innovations in SBM make that process easier to do as I have learned from my older cousin in contrast to my late father’s experience – although he lived a very LONG time -and quite well- with the condition.

@Denice Walter

I do not have Congestive Heart Failure, there is no fluid backing up into my lungs.

I can not take vaccinations because my immune system does not make antibodies well, my antibody test after getting COVID-19 had no detectable antibodies found and I was so sick I barely stayed out of the hospetal.

It is my conventional physicians who do not want me to take any vaccines, as the last flu vaccination put me in the hospital with side-effects over 30 years ago.

Chemicals and metals make me sick.

The only time I had Pneumonia, it was due to using an enzyme treatment for lice, since I am allergic to pesticides and could not use the usual shampoo hair treatment. I spent a week in the hospital with a chemical-induced pneumonia, back in 1998 when my son brought lice home from grade school.

My conventional non woo-woo physicians say it is my MTHFR genes which are the problem, this is not a self-diagnosis, and that increasingly their patients are getting sick from chemicals and metals due to their gene varients in MTHFR and CBS, etc.

My chemical problems are so bad, they have a list of over 30 medications I am either allergic to, or have such severe side-effects from that make it impossible for me to take.

Many of them I took for years and then suddenly one day my face would swell up and I would wind up in the ER with anaphylaxis. Or my last one was my main asthma medication I took for over 40 years, suddenly it caused my body to dump Potassium into my urine and my heart started to have arrhythmia. Now my Pulmonologist has no idea what to do, as I can not take steroids as my Retina specialist says they will cause me to go blind the next time I take them. Finding medications my body will tolerate is very difficult. Even natural substances like Latex and steroids are problems.

You all are clueless about the increasing problems people are having with chemicals and metals, but there will come a time real soon when even you will be having problems as the environments concentrations continue to go up.

So make all the fun and comments you want about my filters and avoidance of chemicals and metals. I will continue to follow my physicians advice to avoid and filter everything, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Just to clear up a point:
you said “heart failure”- a cardiologist gave you CoQ10 to “slow the progression of heart failure”:

@ Aelxa Hill

“I do not have Congestive Heart Failure, there is no fluid backing up into my lungs.”

Phew! One disease you do not have… Good for you!

“It is my conventional physicians who do not want me to take any vaccines, as the last flu vaccination put me in the hospital with side-effects over 30 years ago.”

M’kay.

“Chemicals and metals make me sick.”

M’kay.

“The only time I had Pneumonia, it was due to using an enzyme treatment for lice, since I am allergic to pesticides and could not use the usual shampoo hair treatment. I spent a week in the hospital with a chemical-induced pneumonia, back in 1998 when my son brought lice home from grade school.”

M’kay.

“My conventional non woo-woo physicians say it is my MTHFR genes which are the problem, this is not a self-diagnosis”

I hope you read the 23andme warning on the matter. I hope your “non woo-woo physician” also knows that it is highly difficult to link your issues with MTHFR.

“and that increasingly their patients are getting sick from chemicals and metals due to their gene varients in MTHFR and CBS, etc.”

Honestly, this list of misfortunes you give can only raise eyebrows. You really should double check with your own self whether or not you’re not overdoing it.

“You all are clueless about the increasing problems people are having with chemicals and metals, but there will come a time real soon when even you will be having problems as the environments concentrations continue to go up.”

I highly doubt the concentrations will keep going up in the developed world. Lead concentration has been going down over the years on this Australian chart. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’d be the case in general for heavy metals.

@ Aelxa Hill

“So make all the fun and comments you want about my filters and avoidance of chemicals and metals.”

OK. Here goes:

Look, you may be really sick from whatever. That I cannot know. But honestly, you do not need to make yourself believe whatever nonsense just to allow yourself to take measures that you’re fine living with and get you through the day. And, also, honestly, your rants were completely over the top… Moreover, for your health, you likely should refrain from reading medical literature so compulsively. My 2 cents.

@Denice Walter

Yes, Denice, I said “Heart Failure” NOT Congestive Heart Failure which is where the Heart Failure has progressed to the point the left side of the heart is too weak to pump the oxygenated blood from the Lungs out into the rest of the body.

This means the right side of the heart pumps blood strongly into the lungs where CO2 is exchanged for O2, then the blood is backed up as the left side is, at the point of CHF, unable to get the blood fast enough blout of the lung cappillary system, and blood plasma starts leaking from the capillaries into the lungs aveoli, and the patients starts drowning on their own blood plasma.

Need a medical education in the CardioPulmonary system? As a Respiratory Therapist I can help you with that.

Early in the Heart Failure process, simple actions, like extra CoQ10, can help the Heart recover from damage, but often some prescription medication needs to be taken lifelong, to prevent progression to CHF.

I would think a respiratory therapist would have a better grasp of high school science than “chemicals and metals.”

I would think a respiratory therapist would have a better grasp of high school science than “chemicals and metals.”

I would as well, but this is the Aelxa Hill Alternative Universe we are playing in.

unable to get the blood fast enough blout of the lung cappillary system

You are well past being able to blame your phone for this letter salad.

@Denice Walter

Are you looking for Cardiomyopathy?

Cardio means heart , myo means muscle and pathy means pathology or disease.

However physicians commonly call it by the name “Heart Failure” to patients and other physicians.

The wife of one of my physicians went on a bike fund-raising trip, came back exhausted and tired 24 /7. Her physician sent her to a Cardiologist at Duke University, who diagnosed her with Heart Failure, just like me. She is on CoQ10, too.

It is called Heart Failure.

No, that’s not the only term: there are others: more than one. YOU tell me.
But that wouldn’t sound as bad as “heart failure” unqualified
Also no meds?
No wonder you didn’t answer Narad’s question about ejection fraction.

@Denice Walter

They call it Heart Failure because sometimes it takes plain English to get people to realize they have a serious problem, and they need to take it serious BEFORE it becomes CHF.

No medication yet, because he wants the result of the MRI of the Heart w/wo Contrast first, before prescribing a medication. And because I have so many problems with medications, he wants to see the damage from the virus before treatment first.

You are a nosy one, aren’t you. What do you care what medication he places me on? I could have given,you one of a handful being used today to treat Heart Failure, instead I am honest and say I am not on one at this time.

Betablockers are contraindicated due to my Asthma. I take Spironolactone and Micardis at this time to deal with the low potassium and high BP, before I developed Heart Failure. I also take daily Genotropin shots since my Pituitary gland stopped making HGH in my 40s, and having no HGH causes Heart Failure.

But this Heart Failure is from COVID-19 damaging my heart, and they want to document the damage first.

Your curiously satisfied, Denice? I doubt it.

@ Aelxa Hill

“And because I have so many problems with medications”

Maybe you should try ingesting more heavy metals and less medications.

“Your curiously satisfied, Denice? I doubt it.”

Cannot speak for Denice, but, speaking for myself, I am not satisfied yet. I have an uncanny curiosity for people who take a lot of medications.

I will stop responding to you after this but readers need to know

YOU are the person who put forth details about your health, often misleading readers. CoQ10 is not approved for heart failure by the FDA nor did Cochrane ( 2014) find it useful for HF in a review of research. There are other terms for your condition, but you choose the one that sounds worst and leave it unqualified- “heart failure” could mean a slight cardiac insufficiency, ischemic HF or a step away from death- there is a range that is QUANTIFIABLE- that’s why Narad asked that question . Similarly, you espouse multiple positions that are not accepted by SBM as other commenters have shown you many times foremost amongst them the pseudoscience of vaccines causing autism, That alone should make anything you write suspect.

You are not the only person who has ever studied life sciences, worked with medical professionals or cared for people with serious conditions, being advised by experts. You and your cohorts here have repeatedly talked down to me in a manner which I have never heard from any of my professors in several degree programmes across different fields or medical doctors who treated my parents and educated me or whom I worked with / know socially.. You are a respiratory therapist or were. That’s it

It probably bothers you that a woman- me- has influence as a sceptic and is accepted by the regulars of RI while YOU ARE NOT. You repeatedly advocate positions that Orac has demolished over the years or researchers whose studies have been retracted and could be referenced right here via Search. Regulars have read his deconstructions and can probably quote him verbatim. You aren’t telling us anything that we haven’t already heard from pseudoscientists even though you throw in a some SBM. So does Dr Mercola or Gary Null. It doesn’t make the rest of your spiel true .Doctors who comment here don’t second your positions.

If you truly have all of these serious conditions you claim, you have better things to do than to spread misinformation about vaccines and other topics on a blog. -btw- doesn’t standard medical practice advise flu vaccines for people with heart conditions or asthma?..

. .

@Aelxa Hill Have it occurred to you that someone may actually read your links ?
First one: Mayo says that CoQ10 may help symptoms of HF and that some research shows that it may help otherwise. Definitely not curative.
Second one: Japanese consume lots of CdQ10, which does not prove anything
Third one: Again, conclusion is that some research suggests that CoQ10 may be useful.
Statins block cholesterol synthesis, which is useful when your problem is cholesterol in your arteries. There are, of course, any number of RCTs about the matter.

@Aarno

Cutting cardiovascular mortality and all cause mortality by 50% is beyond statistically significant, it is better than most prescription medications. To say it is not significant, is facetious.

No medication for any heart disease is “curative” , but to cut the mortality in halve by taking a nutrient alone is fantastic.

Cholesterol is what our body’s hormone are made from, like DHA and testosterone. And statins lower these hormones …….

https://www.endocrinologyadvisor.com/home/topics/cardiovascular-and-metabolic-disorders/statin-use-linked-to-lower-levels-of-sex-hormones-in-multi-ethnic-cohort/

Statins are known to make diabetes worse…..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4156828/

Statins double the risk of Diabetes…….

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.medicalnewstoday.com/amp/articles/325567

Each person needs to take the side-effects of medications into accounlowthere are documented cases of low Vitamin D nutrient levels plus a statin equals heart and muscle damage…….

https://academic.oup.com/qjmed/article/105/5/487/1565780

And long-term Statin use is found to low Vitamin D levels. …….

https://www.ijbcp.com/index.php/ijbcp/article/view/700

This makes sense since Vitamin D is a hormone.

Arteriosclerosis is caused by plaques in arteries. They do contain cholesterol. Your knowledge of medicine is as limited as your knowledge of geology.
If there are cholesterol in your arteries, there are obviously too much of it. All testosterone have been synthesized, and there are still lots of it around.
One cherry picked paper may impress you, but it does not impress FDA. eveidently.

@Aarno

Cholesterol has multiple functions in the body, without enough you have not enough testosterone, and can not get it up.

Cholesterol is also what your brain cells are made from.

Cholesterol is also the vessel repair, band-aid substance, when the vessels are damaged the body slaps cholesterol over the damaged section. Analysis shows the damage is from Calcium oxalate crystals, which have sharp razor-blade edges.

I know lots about cholesterol, you have no idea the scope of cholesterol and it’s functions in the human body.

@Aelxa Hall. Gosh, I do know all that. But you do not know that arteriosclerotic plaques contain cholesterol. If you have in your arteries, you have to much of it, even after all testosterone is synthesized and all brain cells have got their share. All these things reduce amount of cholesterol.
I tell you a secret: all cells have cholesterol. But you know, you can get too much of a good thing.

@ Narad

I do believe a few percents of gold or similar in your portfolio, if you can afford it, is worth it. For a variety of reasons. It’s not the smartest hedge for bad global events, but it’s a rather low-maintenance one.

@Denice Walter

You are incorrect.

Even Mayo Clinic recommends CoQ10 for Heart Failure…

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-coenzyme-q10/art-20362602

CoQ10 has been a prescription medication treatment in Japan since 1974……

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019483217308696

Another study showing CoQ10 100mg taken TID almost halved cardiovascular mortality (9% vs 16%), almisted halved all cause mortality (10% vs 18%),morbiditylong-term cardiovascular morbidity (15% vs 26%), and the benefits just go on…..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6131403/

So your OPINION regarding CoQ10 is trash.

In fact, if you are prescribed a Statin, the pharmacy now gives you a handout stating you will need to take CoQ10 daily to replace the CoQ10 the Statin destroys.

Statins have negative effects…..

https://www.bmj.com/content/340/bmj.c2197

Read the “Discussion” section. Among those negative effects are myopathy, liver dysfunction, acute renal failure, and cataracts. Stopping statin use was found to reverse cataract formation caused by the statin.

Statins can cause brain malfunctions….

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/its-not-dementia-its-your-heart-medication/

Go to the papers listed at the end of the article and google them to read, instead of complaining that it is merely an article.

No medical treatment, medication, or vaccine is without negative effects of some kind to patients. Treatment is always a balancing between negative and positive effects and deciding if a trial of the medication will benefit the patient.

This comments section is to make comments, and not to just agree and pat each other on the back for having the same opinion as the person who writes the blog. I do not care who thinks you are great, etc and certainly I do not envy you or your fellow ego massagers.

As regards your list of names for Heart Failure, they are all SUBTYPES of Heart Failure.

I wrote that Heart Failure had a gradient of severity, and CHF was not what I had, since I had no blood plasma backing up into my lungs. I have Heart Failure, subtype is viral myocarditis.

You obviously have no idea what a Respiratory Therapist is or does, our patients all have Cardivascular problems and/or Respiratory problems. I have dealt with every possible Cardiac patient that exists, who do you think helps keep them alive on ventilators, not the Cardiologists or the Pulmonologists either.

I have no “Cohort” , have never read an antivaxer site, never watch you tube videos as they are mainly cranks spouting whatever, never saw Baldwin do anything outside Saturday Night Live, seen and read nothing by Kennedy, or any internet doctor selling their products, etc.

All you accusations are full of hot air, people can actually come to conclusions all on their own like me and not be a Loyal Lemming.

To have a list of researchers who publish studies a blogger does not agree with, and refuse to even read them on your own with even a semblance of impartiality shows a closed mind. Medical journals published them after they went through review, they were not self-published.

As for retractions, lately I see alot of politics causing them. Doctors on Healio and Medscape are screaming in the comments section about medical studies from China being suspect…..because Trump accuses the WHO of colluding with China to spread COVID-19. As if the WHO is able to definitively confirm anything a government tells them is true or not.

I see huge faults in studies you claim show Autism is not caused by vaccines.

And I have said that it is a multitude of factors coming together that causes Autism, genes, chemicals, metals, vaccines in concert are causing the problem, not a single factor by itself, so stop trying to say I said that vaccines alone cause Autism.

Readers need to know there are two sides to every question, and without discourse there is only stagnation.

almisted halved all cause mortality (10% vs 18%),morbiditylong-term cardiovascular morbidity

No, really, it’s the phone’s fault.

@ Orac’s minions:

I won’t respond to AH but anyone interested in what the Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, AHA, Web MD, etc say, can look directly at their sites where TREATMENTS for heart failure are listed which are all meds, devices and procedures. No supplements. Also FDA, Wikipedia, Cochrane (2014) on CoQ10.
She supplies misleading information that can harm the unwary.

The rest is obvious.

She has more serious problems than we usually deal with in a comment section. I want nothing to do with her.

@ Denice Walter

“She has more serious problems than we usually deal with in a comment section.”

Indeed. The only analogy I can find when I think of Aelxa Hill is the Niagara Falls. Claims upon claims upon claims upon claims… no feedback loop open. Just amazing. World Champion.

@Denice Walter

The link I posted was from the Mayo Clinic, you can lie all you want, they recommend CoQ10.

The FDA states no vitamin or nutrient may be claimed to treat any disease, thus CoQ10 is not on the Mayo Clinic Treatment page, but the Mayo Clinic still advises all their heart patients take CoQ10.

None of what I posted was misleading or false, cardiologists do tell patients to take CoQ10, especially if the patient takes a Statin.

You just hate anyone contradicting your pronouncements. That is so obvious, and is your problem.

The link I posted was from the Mayo Clinic, you can lie all you want, they recommend CoQ10.

The link more suggests that it’s not likely to cause one to drop dead.

@ Aelxa Hill

“The link I posted was from the Mayo Clinic, you can lie all you want, they recommend CoQ10.”

Here is the text from the Mayo Clinic website:

“CoQ10 has been shown to improve symptoms of congestive heart failure. Although findings are mixed, CoQ10 might help reduce blood pressure. Some research also suggests that when combined with other nutrients, CoQ10 might aid recovery in people who’ve had bypass and heart valve surgeries.”

Let’s be clear: This is NOT what it means when talking about a recommendation. The Mayo Clinic website makes a cautious statement, not a “recommendation”.

Moreover, your accusation towards Denice Walter is ill founded. She wrote: “Also FDA, Wikipedia, Cochrane (2014) on CoQ10.”

So Denice has not been referencing the Mayo Clinic website when she put forward her argument concerning CoQ10. She referenced other sources, such as Cochrane. So you were essentially lying when you were accusing her of lying. She was pointing other sources, and you mislead your audience by asserting that the Mayo Clinic website was being twisted in Denice’s words. YOU were the one twisting her words.

Own it: you are much more of liar than Denice is. The best you can accuse her of is downplaying a mildly ambiguous statement on the Mayo Clinic website in favor of other official statements: “The FDA has not approved coenzyme Q10 for the treatment of cancer or any other medical condition.” “No report of a randomized clinical trial of coenzyme Q10 as a treatment for cancer has been published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal.” All that on the cancer.gov website.

These statements are perfectly consistent with other statements on the same webpage, acknowledging that some effects have been documented. Typically: “Coenzyme Q10 has shown an ability to stimulate the immune system and to protect the heart from damage caused by certain chemotherapy drugs.”

Which DOES NOT IMPLY THAT COQ10 IS “RECOMMENDED”!

You just hate anyone contradicting your pronouncements. That is so obvious, and is your problem.

Irony much?

Wrong wrong wrong wrong. I just leaned over and asked the Cards team, who were passing through the charting area, since I had NEVER seen a single one EVER tell people to use CoQ10. Keep in mind, I’ve done three dedicated cardiology rotations. Back to the point – they say: “It doesn’t hurt but it’s a waste of money-no effect on outcomes at all.” That’s straight from three horses’ mouths, so to speak.

They put tons of people on statins, I put lots of people on statins. This NEVER comes up. A cursory review of the literature and all of the major academy recommendations says the same thing – can’t hurt but no changes in outcome.

@MedicalYeti

“It never comes up”

Well, it sure will as you find your patients dying with good lipid profiles after going in Statins.

I was working an Internal Medicine practice back in 1987, when the first Statin, lovastatin came out. After a few of our patients died with great bloodwork, the doc stopped prescribing lovastatin to his patients.

Here is a study on patients who developed heart failure on Statins, who had the satin stopped and treated with CoQ10…..

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6730959/

Here is article about cardiologists in Texas who treat heart patients with CoQ10, in conjunction with Karl Folkers who discovered both B-12 and CoQ10 and also worked for Merck at one point…..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.texasmonthly.com/articles/heartless-behavior/amp/

A complete list of the over 300 published works of Karl Folkers……..

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/2120920601_Karl_Folkers

A tribute to Karl Folkers by NAP which lists his outstanding work in biochemistry……

https://www.nap.edu/read/10470/chapter/6

Without Dr Folkers work physicians would not have a treatment for Pernicious Anemia,…….

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/000569.htm

What is the treatment? Shots of B-12.

Get smart, if you give a patient a medication that depletes essential vitamins and nutrients, you must have the patient take a vitamin or nutrient to compensate, and prevent side-effects caused by that lack.

Otherwise, you are open to possible malpractice.

Every pharmacy gives out a handout with a Statin prescription filled, explaining Statins can deplete CoQ10 and that taking CoQ10 is advised.

From your link:
“The 1-year mortality was 0%, and the 3-year mortality was 2.8%. Two strokes but no heart attacks were observed during the study period. No adverse effects from supplemental CoQ10 were observed.”
Not exactly a miracle cure.

@Aarno

There is no miracle cure for anything.

And having no side-effect is way better than Statins causing cariomyopathy, other myopathies, and in some cases even Psychosis.

Statins fo not decrease cardiovascular death rates, while CoQ10 does cut the death rate in half.

Huge difference in results, cutting lipid bloodtest results with Statins show no benefit.

@Aelxa Hall There are so many clinical trials about statins that you can do meta analysis, for instance:
Kazem Rahimi, William Majoni, Amal Merhi, Jonathan Emberson,
Effect of statins on ventricular tachyarrhythmia, cardiac arrest, and sudden cardiac death: a meta-analysis of published and unpublished evidence from randomized trials,
European Heart Journal, Volume 33, Issue 13, July 2012, Pages 1571–1581, https://doi.org/10.1093/eurheartj/ehs005
For CoQ10 you have questionable Q-SYMBIO trial.

Another Mayo Clinic link which discusses possible use of CoQ10 for statin-related muscle aches (which occur in a small minority of patients).

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/coenzyme-q10/faq-20058176

Note that (contrary to Aelxa’s assertion) Mayo does not recommend CoQ10 for all such patients, but says that if you do experience muscle aches while on statins, your doctor may suggest a trial of CoQ10. So should we now accuse Aelxa of “lying”?

Also, statins do not “destroy” CoQ10 as Aelxa claimed, but instead are thought to decrease formation of an intermediate metabolite in CoQ10’s production, which is a different story.

I have a pretty good idea of what a respiratory therapist does. The job description does not include spreading ridiculous woo, or randomly Capitalizing certain Words to comic effect, like Cardivascular (sic), Cardiac or Statin.

Given that physicians and nurses are far from immune from functional ignorance about health and giving out bad advice, it does not impress me when someone claims credibility on the grounds of being a therapist or technician. Someone in a completely unrelated occupation who takes the trouble to be well-informed and is capable of critical thinking, is far more likely to be trustworthy on health-related issues.

*a surprising (depressing?) number of wooists posting online boast of being in “the medical field” which could be anything from open-heart surgeon to the person who empties the clinic wastebaskets. The latter is a useful job, but neither automatically makes one an expert on (for example) vaccines.

@Dangerous Bacon

10% to 20% of patients develop muscle aches, etc from Statins…….

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/08/190826191928.htm

10 to 20% is not a small number of patients when about 35 million Americans are taking Statins……

https://www.drugs.com/article/statins-benefits-and-risks.html

That means 3,500,000 to 7,000,000 Americans experience this “minor” side-effect each year. That is a hell of alot of people.

“Thought to decrease formation”? That is a theory, but even as a theory that means that the formation process of CoQ10 interrupted, destroying CoQ10 formation.

Sort of like destroying a fetus, by interrupting it’s development.

The human body recycles the CoQ10 molecule multiple times over and over again before it is discarded by the body.
In humans, the mitochondria and Golgi apparatus is thought to be where CoQ10 is made but no one knows for certain how our bodies make CoQ10. …….

https://microbialcellfactories.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12934-017-0646-4

Am I lying? No, but you are by implying that I lie.

And when I went to grade school we were taught that nouns and proper names were capitalized. And that Don’t, can’t and all other contractions were not proper English. If you think my habit of capitalization is bad, do not read the Declaration of Independence, every other word is capitalized.

You know zip about Respiratory Therapy.
When I take care of a patient on a ventilator, I decide when to change modes of treatment, and when to wean a patient off the ventilator, to finally breathe on their own. Doctors do not tell me what to do with my patient on my ventilator. It is an Art, to get a ventilator and a patient to function well together and to help the patient survive long enough to heal and leave the hospital alive.

I have yet to hear anyone who works in Environmental Services, ie the people who take out the trash, say they “work” in Medicine. You are so intent on belittling anyone who disagrees with you, you are a sad little man.

And when I went to grade school we were taught that nouns and proper names were [sic] capitalized.

What, in Germany?

@Farad

This time I am no longer going to try and correct my “smart”phone’s spellcheck, so your name is now Farad. AMD for a guy whose phone wrote “it” instead of “if”….you have nerve to talk.

They taught me American-English in New Jersey, I learned Latin, Greek and French ….plus German and English-English in Germany during High School.

@ Aelxa Hill

“Am I lying? No, but you are by implying that I lie.”

You proved that you were a liar, when calling Denice Walter a liar.

Case closed.

@Farad

Well, spellcheck made you Farad again.

Spellcheck changes “and” into “AMD” after I send my comments, I re-read each carefully before sending. And then wind up changed, not my fault.

I do not own a computer, got tired of spending over $1,000 every couple of years for another machine that is swiftly outdated .

It is bad enough having to buy a new “smart”phone every few years. When I was younger you rented a phone from the phone company, and the phones rarely changed, now you need a computer and phone budget as large as your car budget.

Forget that, a car used to last you 20 years easy with maintence, now you are lucky if the piece of crap lasts until you have it paid off. I swear, you pay more for stuff and it breaks the day after the warranty ends. Built in timers to make the stuff go kaputt.

I do not own a computer, got tired of spending over $1,000 every couple of years for another machine that is swiftly outdated .

I’ve only bought two computers in my entire life: a NeXTstation Color and a 15″ PPC G4 AlBook. Yet I somehow have five or six laptops in working condition, not counting the stuff I’ve fixed up for friends. You’d be surprised at what a modicum of competence, appropriate tools, and a hard drive here and there can do (although the G5 iMac — I think — throws RF hash like there’s no tomorrow outside the top left display corner now; the glue on the foil shielding did not fully yield to a hair dryer).

So should we now accuse Aelxa of “lying”?

It claims that a U.S. grade school taught it that nouns are capitalized and, moreover, that its phone somehow changes it’s comments after they’ve been submitted. There are only so many options.

@Arad

Now your name is Arad, I keep wondering what kind of bug enjoys infecting Spellcheck. I am leaving it again, it is too funny.

Well, cupcake, I learned English Composition in the 1950s. Why don’t you find a 1950s English instruction book for grade school and check it out. Or just an old book from back then, and see what was capitalized, that is no longer capitalized now.

And yes, I have corrected things before sending and they go out looking fine, who knows why the phone does what it does. Just look at your name, why it did it insist your name was Farad and now insists it is Arad? Do not ask me, we laugh about this stuff on another list I belong to, as others on it have the same problem.

And like I said, do not read the Declaration of Independence, every other word is Capitalized.

And “it”? Really, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel there, dude.

And “it”? Really, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel there, dude.

Pick your preferred pronoun. Nobody is actually named “Aelxa.”

Well, cupcake, I learned English Composition in the 1950s. Why don’t you find a 1950s English instruction book for grade school and check it out.

Yah. I think I do have a ’50s style guide in storage (hell, and a facsimile copy of the 1895 first edition of the Astrophysical Journal</>; no Germanic capitalization to be found).

No, Bitsy. Howsabout you dig one up? Or look around your library from books published in the ’50s? Kerouac? Koestler? This isn’t exactly antiquarian stuff. Fuck, open up Fowler.

You’re getting pretty close to Gerg in the trolling category.

@Arad

Wrong, AELXA has been my name since before you were born, and way before the Internet existed as ARPANET.

Sometimes errors are made on birth certificates, and no one wants to bother jumping through hoops to fix them.

And that is all you can do, pick on my name? Real barrel scraper.

You should see author Anne Rice’s real name….Howard Allen Francis O’Brien. Her parents gave her three boy’s name, I am happy with a misspelling.

@ F68.10:

Whilst you’re almost correct,I DO refer to the Mayo Clinic’s site in my post at 6.38pm yesterday,

( as well as Cleveland clinic, AHA, Web MD about treatment ). for their Diagnosis and TREATMENT section which only lists meds, surgery and devices for HF: no supplements whatsoever: look THERE.. Also FDA, Wikipedia, Cochrane more generally about CoQ10..
Since the 1990s, many claims have been made about supplements for CVD and studies have been done HOWEVER, we still do not see standard sources recommending CoQ10 as a treatment. HOW DO I KNOW THIS? I can tell you, it’s not a random factoid I discovered by skimming references but anecdotes don’t count.

@ Dangerous Bacon:

That’s a good capsule description.
For over 20 years now** I survey how alt med partisans distort information. This was a perfect example: mix in a few facts, leave out others, insult people and claim success with woo-fraught panacea. Orac’s readers deserve better

About “woo-ists” declaring they are in the medical field-, lately in PRN’s Wikipedia wars, they tell followers to not to listen to sceptics because Susan G, is only a “picture hanger” ( while their leader is a ” board certified, clinical nutritional biochemist”) and Dr DG is neither educated nor intelligent enough to understand science. SURE he is! Poor guy!

** .before that New Age and Natural Medicine.
I studied life sciences as an undergrad/ neurological, pharma- based, gerontology, etc as a grad student

“I just completed a for-profit class in new age biology online and they certified me. Respect my authoritah!”

@ MedicalYeti:

Thank you, Dr Cartman.

But more seriously, since DSHEA in ’94, New Age, Natural Medicine and alt med proselytisers have downplayed the value of meds for life threatening conditions and focused upon the “efficacy” of supplements and foods as superior replacements. It is Nature uber alles and they usually can cite research to support their beliefs.

Orac’s readers are comprised of a spectrum including a significant proportion
who may be ill suited for discerning the difference between SB consensus and speculative claims. Many people yearn for the comfort of illusory control over dangerous conditions and opt for diets and supplements to treat illness or merely
postpone SB treatment because they believe that they have something to fall back on: that they’re already doing something helpful with supplementation . When someone claims professional expertise and personal success with alternative methods they may encourage that tendency
Sceptics have to speak up. to counter that..

@Denice Walter

Again, you spout another falsehood, and imply that I “downplay the role of medicines” in favor of using vitamins and nutrients.

I said my Cardiologist had not put me on any meds yet for my heart failure, as the MRI w/wo Contrast was not done yet. I was told to increase my CoQ10, which my PrimaryCare Physician had me on already along with Micardis and Spironolactone for high blood pressure.

Here, let me cite an article for using CoQ10 again, this time it using CoQ10 to decrease Nephrotoxicity caused by Cisplantin used in treating Cancer…….

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/iji/2020/5369797/

So even in Cancer treatment centerd they are starting to use nutrients to counteract the toxicity of medical treatment of malignancy.

Here is another article from the University Hospital of Ferrari, Italy where they use both medications and vitamins and nutrients to treat patients with cardiac problems…….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15591005/

Any good physician uses all the tools available to them, I do not know one Cardiologist who does not use CoQ10.

That the rest of the World uses medications and vitamins and nutrients in conjunction to treat disease has been going on for almost 100 years. Only in Americthis the idea that vitamins and nutrients are of no value espoused.

So keep blathering, you are just an embarressment to yourself at this rate.

Sure, it’s the phone.

The notion of a person who is demonstrably semiliterate engaging in patient care is frankly terrifying.

She has got a point; And statins do suck — strokes, and whatnot. Cholesterol is good — Try to get it from eggs for the HDL.

European regulators wrestle with the same dietary supplement issues as the U.S. – lack of assurance of quality, widely variable concentrations of product compared to what the label claims, and non-proven uses.

A recent study of CoQ10 supplements in Europe found wide disparity between labeling and how much CoQ10 was actually in the pill. This may be part of the reason (apart from lack of solid evidence of efficacy) that many cardiologists don’t recommend CoQ10 to their patients.

American physicians are trained to recognize vitamin deficiency disease (rare) and when supplementation is advisable. They, like their European counterparts, don’t share some patients’ ill-informed enthusiasm for megadosing and for unproven, potentially hazardous supplement pills.

@Dangerous Bacon

Citation please for your claim “European regulators wrestle with… dietary supplement issues”. If I have to post links to back my statements, then so do you.

In fact, the European Nations have been regulating supplements far longer than the US. When I was living in Germany in the 1960s, they were dispensed only at pharmacies and well regulated.

Now the EU has one standard to be followed, here is the USDA handout if a US company wants to sell in Europe…..

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://apps.fas.usda.gov/newgainapi/api/report/downloadreportbyfilename%3Ffilename%3DExporting%2520Food%2520Supplements%2520to%2520the%2520European%2520Union_Brussels%2520USEU_EU-28_1-11-2017.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjwxuzO-6nrAhWDmuAKHcifBPQQFjANegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2hDPgbTkV1BO3mNvMOiXI6

Kanaka which is the major japanese maker of CoQ10, has started selling in Europe…..

https://www.nutraingredients.com/Article/2008/05/13/Kaneka-targets-CoQ10-at-European-supplements-market

Try to make honest claims.

Most American physicians would not recognize Vitamin C deficiency symptoms or Beri Beri (thiamine deficiency) symptoms. Just ask any of them what the symptoms are.

American physicians prescribe, ie recommend patients take, vitamins and nutrients all the time, the major one is Vitamin D as the studies show low Vitamin D is related to poor disease outcomes. I do not know a physician who does not check a patients Vitamin D level at least once every few years, mine checks it yearly. Another is Calcium. And they prescribe these plus potassium, etc all the time as people eat poorly now.

Megadosing anything is stupid, the common uninformed user idea that more is better.

For example, the US government pushes Beta-carotene as a substitute for Vitamin A, yet high Beta-carotene levels block utilization of true Vitamin A by the body. Yet the US government pushes Beta-carotene as a “safe” Vitamin A substitute.

And a common gene variant, 50% of women in the UK have it and tons of women around the World have it too, makes converting Beta-carotene extremely unlikely……..

https://faseb.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1096/fj.08-121962

If you read the research done by Earl Harrison on Beta-carotene and true Vitamin A, only 135 studies, you would learn that Beta-carotene blocks Vitamin A transport from the Liver to the body for usage also…..

https://www.researchgate.net/scientific-contributions/9997971_Earl_H_Harrison

Here is a 2012 article on his work…..

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/05/120501134414.htm

In fact, high Beta-carotene helps lung cancer grow….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20155614/

Anyone who know anything about vitamins knows too much of a good thing can be a very bad thing.

Even too much water can kill you…….

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-drinking-too-much-water-can-kill/

Another good 2018 study showing CoQ10 DOES work on muscles problems caused by Statins. …….

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.118.009835

A study proving Statins reduces blood levels of CoQ10……

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/786017

Anything that reduces a nutrient that is imperative for heart function, needs to be counteracted by replacing the lost nutrient. It is CoQ10 that enables your heart to beat 24/7, year after year.

Practicing physicians know this, and remind their patients on Statins to take CoQ10, and to take it far apart from their Statins, so the COQ10 is not destroyed right away.

And for the last time……

The FDA has ruled no vitamin or nutrient may claim to treat or prevent a disease, so you will never find a vitamin or nutrient on the list of treatments for a disease anywhere in the USA.

You will find them as adjunct support items, but no physician will fight the FDA and the AMA and the “status quo”.

While in the rest of the World, physicians do make vitamins and nutrients regular part of patient treatment. And they publish papers and studies of the effects, like the Italian Cisplantin study I posted.

@ Aelxa

“While in the rest of the World, physicians do make vitamins and nutrients regular part of patient treatment.”

I already showed you that France has essentially the same position as the US. I have asked you to isolate a specific country where your claim holds water.

You haven’t replied.

Not surprising.

The FDA has ruled no vitamin or nutrient may claim to treat or prevent a disease, so you will never find a vitamin or nutrient on the list of treatments for a disease anywhere in the USA.

You lose. Go away.

@Aelxa HalI I myself take D vitamin supplement. It is useful when you do not get enough sunshine,
Of course beta carotene blocks absorption of A vitamin.Body converts it to A vitamin, You cannot have overdose here, because body syntheses only as much A vitamin as needed. You don’t know anything, do you ?

@Aarno

You are in need of reading Earl Harrison’s research on Beta-carotene and Vitamin A from the last 17 plus years.

High Beta-carotene foes not convert into Vitamin A, and it blocks Vitamin A transport from the Liver where Vitamin A is stored to thecrest of the body where Vitamin A is essential for sight, skin repair, etc.

Vitamin A fights off Lung Cancer, while studies show high Beta-carotene causes Lung Cancer in smokers.

Go get an education.

@Aelxa Hall Body converts only as much carotene to A vitamin as it needs. So, of course, large amounts of carotene is not converted. You are pushing for overdose. Funny that nature knows best, expect when a supplement pusher knows better.

Aelxa: “The FDA has ruled no vitamin or nutrient may claim to treat or prevent a disease, so you will never find a vitamin or nutrient on the list of treatments for a disease anywhere in the USA.”

Someone who cites the Mayo Clinic should have found it easy to find Mayo Clinic articles on standard treatment of vitamin deficiency diseases, i.e. certain anemias, rickets etc., which include (wait for it) administering vitamins.

As for mindlessly challenging the idea that the European Union wrestles with dietary supplement regulatory issues and demanding a cite, try digesting this:

http://raps.org/news-and-articles/news-articles/2018/7/food-supplements-in-the-european-union-the-diffic

“no physician will fight the FDA and the AMA and the “status quo”.”

If a physician prescribes or profits from selling non-FDA approved medications, they could well be in trouble (eventually). The A.M.A., despite being the wooists’ Great Satan, has no power to discipline physicians. And the “status quo” of medical diagnosis/treatment is continually challenged with success and updated, as even a cursory glance at the medical literature would tell you, if you found a practitioner willing to deal with your cranioanal impaction problem. It’s only in the land of woo that promoters and apologists doggedly stick to the same old ineffective and dangerous remedies and debunked tropes.

@Dangerous Bacon

I ask you for a cite on your claim about CoQ10, not variation in regulation within EU nations. Could not find a single cite to back your claim, could you. That is because the Japanese are careful to make a good product since it a prescription item in Japan.

I already gave a link to the newest EU regulations for American manufacturers wanting to sell their products in the EU, try reading it. Your link says nothing new.

Could not find a single cite to back your claim, could you. That is because the Japanese are careful to make a good product since it a prescription item in Japan.

No, it’s not.

“CoQ_10 was introduced into clinical therapy in 1974 in Japan. Its generic name is ubidecarenone. Many clinical trials showed that oral administration to patients was effective for mild congestive heart failure symptoms such as edema, lung congestion, and swollen liver. On the basis of these clinical findings, CoQ_10 was classified in the group of cardiovascular drugs for metabolic disturbances. In 1991, CoQ_10, whose generic name is ubiquinone-10, was also made available as an over-the-counter drug in pharmacies.

Go away.

“Practicing physicians know this, and remind their patients on Statins to take CoQ10, and to take it far apart from their Statins, so the COQ10 is not destroyed right away.”

I’m a practicing physician and I told you a couple days ago I asked THREE practicing cardiologists. No one “knows this.” No one “Reminds their patients to take it.” I’m sorry if this flies in the face of your beliefs but you cannot make statements like this as fact and go unchallenged.

“You will find them as adjunct support items, but no physician will fight the FDA and the AMA and the “status quo”.”

This is just plain silly. The AMA does little to nothing to direct daily clinical practice in real life. It’s not as if they send out a message every morning saying: “Today, thou shalt not prescribe CoQ10 .” They take absolutely no stance on it, at all, in fact. The vast majority of clinical decisions are made by following evidence based recommendations or society recommendations. The FDA has NO direct effect on any clinical decisions, save for maybe whether or not a device is safe to use. No physician ever says: “I’d better consult FDA guidance” before recommending for or against any supplement or other intervention that I can think of. It just NEVER happens. The only thing they might be involved in is drug recalls.

Again, I’m sorry this doesn’t fit with your world view but you are making outrageous statements without any regard to their basis in fact or how absurd they are. This is part of the problem with our current discourse in this country, in my opinion. Someone can simply say anything he or she wants and no weight is given to refutation from people who actually know what the hell they are taking about. In some cases, expert response indicates that the statement-maker hit some nerve or uncovered some “truth” and lends even more credibility thereto, rather than the dismissal the statement actually deserved. Be a part of the solution.

@MedicalYeti

I do not think much of the new physicians coming out of school.

My endocrinologist was retiring and transferred me to a new endocrinologist in the practice. This “brilliant” fresh from residency physician reduced my Synthroid and took me off my Cytomel because “older adults are SUPPOSED to have low T4 and T3 results.” (Her emphasis)

Three days later, I was in my PrimaryCare physician’s office, my hair filling out, crying tears non-stop because my eyes were tearing on their own, severely depressed, etc. Long story short, blood tests showed my TSH through the roof, my T4 and T3 way beyond low, and my Primary had to put me back on my previous Synthroid and my Cytomel at twice the previous dosage.

My retiring Endocrinologist took me back, and kept me on the higher Cytomel, because that was what I needed now to stay in normal range. He finally found a Endocrinologist in the practice who would keep their hands off my Synthroid and Cytomel prescription and not rock the metabolic boat. But it still keeps an eye on my case, because he is a founding partner and my doc for over 25 years.

Yeah, I just love the new doctors, but you will learn, hopefully, before you kill too many people. Hopefully.

There is enough studies out there now showing Statins will cause Heart Failure, so you better cover your ass, as one of these days a patient will sue over this happening.

Just like Monsanto was sued over Glyphosate causing Cancer, after decades of studies showing the connection between Cancer and Glyphosate. A lawyer will start the ball rolling. Especially now, that pharmacies are telling patients about the connection between Statins and CoQ10 and Heart problems in those little handouts.

If a patient reads that handout, and asks you about CoQ10, and you tell them they do not need to take CoQ10…….if they then develop Heart Failure? Watch out, hope you have good malpractice insurance. Even alot of the really good doctors wind up having their insurance settle before it goes to court at least once in their lifetime. I have seen it over and over again.

The AMA sends out a monthly magazine, JAMA, that espouses exactly what is acceptable practice with every article they publish.

The AHA too publishes articles like this one from March 2016 saying “The pathophysiologic rationale for the use of CoQ10 in HEpEF exists…” ……

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/CIRCHEARTFAILURE.115.002639

So open you eyes and pay attention. That one line from the AHA article above is important.

The AMA sends out a monthly magazine

, JAMA

Man, that takes a special kind of stupid. Maybe your phone wrote it.

Just like Monsanto was sued over Glyphosate causing Cancer, after decades of studies showing the connection between Cancer and Glyphosate.

Decades of studies, eh? Odd that you elided them. (Of course, there’s Sheppard meta-analysis, but you don’t believe in those.)

The only organization that thinks glyphosate is a human carcinogen is the IARC.

Suggest reading your links. From the conclusion:
“Current American Heart Association/American College of Cardiology HF guidelines do not recommend initiation of nutritional supplementation for the treatment of HF (levels of evidence B, class III). Although the Q-SYMBIO trial was published after these guidelines were established, given the limitations of this trial (described previously), CoQ10 initiation cannot currently be recommended as a guideline-based treatment for HFrEF.”

@Aarno

Oh yes, AHA Guidelines…… I remember when they were pushing margarine made of hydrogenated oil for decades, while I told people plain butter and virgin olive oil was best. I said since the 1970s that the free hydrogen ions released by hydrogenated fats damaged blood vessels.

It took the AHA almost three decades later to say hydrogenated fat was deadly to hearts.

The AHA has to be dragged screaming into admitting they were wrong. But it happens after a while.

The study said the physical evidence was there to use CoQ10, then the AHA added on their rational to continue to oppose CoQ10 which has nothing at all behind it.

@Aelxa Hall
AHA still prefers margarine over butter:
https://www.heart.org/en/health-topics/cholesterol/prevention-and-treatment-of-high-cholesterol-hyperlipidemia/the-skinny-on-fats
“Use soft margarine as a substitute for butter and choose soft margarines (liquid or tub varieties) over harder stick forms. Look for “0 g trans fat” on the Nutrition Facts label”
Notice “soft margarine”. Advice has always been to avoid hard fats. Problem is hard margarine used for frying.
AHA did not like Q-SYMBIO for this reason:
“Q-SYMBIO required an extended period of time (an 8-year period >17 centers in 9 countries) to complete enrollment. It is unclear if this was because of investigator or site-specific limitations, patient acceptance of drug intervention, competing trials, or other causes.”
Definitely a better trial is needed.

Welcome to the alternative universe that is Aelxa Hill.

You will now see a long, rambling, goalpost moving response with no indication of any introspection, let alone recognition they are wrong, from Aelxa.

The Journal of the American Medical Association publishes studies from a large variety of sources. Sometimes they are accompanied by journal editor commentary; rarely if ever are they accompanied by a declaration that this is now a recommended standard of care. And even in such a case, the recommendation would be balanced against what other sources say.

Again, the A.M.A. has zero power to enforce its guidelines or discipline docs. This is hard for the woo crowd to accept but is nevertheless true. A shrinking minority of M.D.s are even A.M.A. members.

@Aelxa Hall I did check effect of beta carotene on lung cancer on smokers
The Effect of Vitamin E and Beta Carotene on the Incidence of Lung Cancer and Other Cancers in Male Smokers
The Alpha-Tocopherol Beta Carotene Cancer Prevention Study Group*
April 14, 1994
N Engl J Med 1994; 330:1029-1035
DOI: 10.1056/NEJM199404143301501
As one can guess, you lied again. Beta carotene rich food seems to reduce lung cancer. Is it possible that a supplement pusher want to push supplements and does not like people eating healthy food ?

@ Narad writes, “What in the fucking hell have you been reading? In any event, a cursory glance suggests that your PUR water filters increase aluminum content.”
Cursory glance indeed! YOU citing Natural New as a reference? High-larious! Thanks for the laugh Cheeky!

It depends on the pH. It is all about the substrate**.

**I completely fabricated this but thought it plausible.

@ Narad & Tim – Hmm. From what I have read, reverse osmosis still seems the way to go.

” the primary source of Aluminum in drinking water comes from the use of aluminum sulfate (alum) as a coagulant in water treatment plants. The total dietary exposure to aluminum salts averages around 20 mg/day. Aluminum is on the US EPA’s Secondary Drinking Water Standards list with suggested levels of 0.05 – 0.2 mg/l; dependent on case-by-case circumstances.”

https://www.aquapurefilters.com/contaminants/102/aluminum.html

According to this and EPA standards, if a person is drinking from the tap, WAY TOO MUCH aluminum on the daily. I wonder, does aluminum accumulate or is the body able to rid itself of the overload? Daily?

And this: “It is well established that Al is a neurotoxic agent.”

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6040147/#sec1-2title

@Natalie White Second sentence from your link
“However, the link of Al to the etiology of various serious neurological disorders such as AD remains still unclear.”
Quote mining is a bad thing. Do you think that people do not read your links ?

@ Aarno writes – “Do you think that people do not read your links ?” I provide for anyone who wants to read it. You can wait around for the next 10-20 years for the labcoats to confirm a diet that includes aluminum is not good for the human body. I prefer to be more conservative in my approach and do what I can to limit my aluminum consumption/injections NOW!

Good day Aarno.

Of course it is possible never confirm toxicity. And in the case of aluminium, you should stop drinking, eating and breathing.

Sorry for typo. I meant that labcoats may not never confirm the toxicity. And you cited a labcoat.

The first says there may be high levels of aluminum in water.

The second mentions this, but doesn’t cite a toxic dose for any of the different sources.

No mention of vaccines.

Because aluminum is found in food, water, air, and soil, people may be exposed to high levels of aluminum when they:

Drink or ingest substances containing high levels of aluminum
Breath aluminum dust in workplace air
Live where aluminum is mined or processed
Live near certain hazardous waste sites
Live where aluminum is naturally high

@ Natalie White

Your first link deals with patients on dialysis. Not tailored for your fear mongering.

Your second link states:

“Because aluminum is found in food, water, air, and soil, people may be exposed to high levels of aluminum when they:

Drink or ingest substances containing high levels of aluminum
Breath aluminum dust in workplace air
Live where aluminum is mined or processed
Live near certain hazardous waste sites
Live where aluminum is naturally high”

Tell us if you’re concerned by any of this 5 conditions. Most people are not. And yeah, according to that link, you should stop eating, drinking and stop breathing given the FUD you seem to believe in.

@F writes, “Tell us if you’re concerned by any of this 5 conditions” – My concern is drinking/ingesting. From the beginning of the thread, I said reverse osmosis is best to filter out contaminants like aluminum (and fluoride). Aluminum is added to the drinking water and some estimates of daily consumption were substantially higher than EPA regulations.

Aluminum is a known neurotoxin regardless of its abundance. Why not limit what I can control through my drinking water?

“Neurotoxin regardless of its abundance”. Of course toxicity of any substance is dependent of its abundance. Do you believe curse of toxins ?

@ Natalie White

“My concern is drinking/ingesting.”

No. You misunderstood me. Pick one of these:

1) Drink or ingest substances containing high levels of aluminum
2) Breath aluminum dust in workplace air
3) Live where aluminum is mined or processed
4) Live near certain hazardous waste sites
5) Live where aluminum is naturally high

My pussy itches. Could it be related to the aluminum powder radiator stop-leak I smeared all inside to give my hun hun a bit’o’friction?? Also, I feel more stupid this morning… I feel really, really dumb.. Stupid fly levels of ‘not smart’… Aluminum out; stuff left over from drilling copper and berillium in. 🍆🍑🦴🤏🦴 What was I thinking? {as if you did not know}

{No ‘camel toe’ jokes, please — serious replies only}

Aarno: “Do you think that people do not read your links ?”

Natalie doesn’t read her own links…at least, not for comprehension.

Speaking about reducing heavy metal consumption, Gary Null has this disclaimer:
https://www.garysvitamincloset.com/pages/disclaimer
It is a standard quack Miranda warning expect this:
“Gary Null & Associates Inc. will not assume liability for any cross-contamination of ingredients, misprints, or adverse reactions to any ingredients in the products we carry. The products sold here may contain lead and other substances that are known to cause cancer and birth defects and other reproductive harm.”
One wonders why Gary Null cannot guarantee, for instance, that there is no lead is his products.

[…] Del Bigtree and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. are two of the heaviest heavyweights in the antivaccine movement at the moment, up there with Andrew Wakefield himself. In antivax world, it doesn’t get much bigger than them, and we’ve written about them here on many occasions. You might recall Del Bigtree. He produced the antivax conspiracyfest of a movie VAXXED, donned a yellow Star of David to liken the “plight” of antivaxxers to that of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe, and, most recently, was urging everyone to “catch this cold” (COVID-19) to reach herd immunity because, according to him, it’s only deadly to the old and sick. Meanwhile, RFK Jr. has been a leader of the antivaccine movement since 2005, when he popularized the Simpsonwood conspiracy theory. In more recent years, he’s been trying to recruit African-Americans to the antivax cause, claiming that vaccines and glyphosate are responsible for the obesity epidemic, labeling the current generation of children the “sickest generation” (because of vaccines, of course), and (also of course) going all in on COVID-19 conspiracy theories. […]

[…] Del Bigtree and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. are two of the heaviest heavyweights in the antivaccine movement at the moment, up there with Andrew Wakefield himself. In antivax world, it doesn’t get much bigger than them, and we’ve written about them here on many occasions. You might recall Del Bigtree. He produced the antivax conspiracyfest of a movie VAXXED, donned a yellow Star of David to liken the “plight” of antivaxxers to that of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe, and, most recently, was urging everyone to “catch this cold” (COVID-19) to reach herd immunity because, according to him, it’s only deadly to the old and sick. Meanwhile, RFK Jr. has been a leader of the antivaccine movement since 2005, when he popularized the Simpsonwood conspiracy theory. In more recent years, he’s been trying to recruit African-Americans to the antivax cause, claiming that vaccines and glyphosate are responsible for the obesity epidemic, labeling the current generation of children the “sickest generation” (because of vaccines, of course), and (also of course) going all-in on COVID-19 conspiracy theories. […]

[…] Del Bigtree and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. are two of the heaviest heavyweights in the antivaccine movement at the moment, up there with Andrew Wakefield himself. In antivax world, it doesn’t get much bigger than them, and we’ve written about them here on many occasions. You might recall Del Bigtree. He produced the antivax conspiracyfest of a movie VAXXED, donned a yellow Star of David to liken the “plight” of antivaxxers to that of Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe, and, most recently, was urging everyone to “catch this cold” (COVID-19) to reach herd immunity because, according to him, it’s only deadly to the old and sick. Meanwhile, RFK Jr. has been a leader of the antivaccine movement since 2005, when he popularized the Simpsonwood conspiracy theory. In more recent years, he’s been trying to recruit African-Americans to the antivax cause, claiming that vaccines and glyphosate are responsible for the obesity epidemic, labeling the current generation of children the “sickest generation” (because of vaccines, of course), and (also of course) going all-in on COVID-19 conspiracy theories. […]

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