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Dr. Carrie Madej: COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are transhumanism!

There’s a new quack in town. Dr. Carrie Madej is making waves with the message that COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are “transhumanism.” Too bad she fails Biology 101 in her fevered ramblings.

Antivaccine conspiracy theorists blame vaccines for many things, such as autism and other neurodevelopmental disorders, autoimmune diseases of all kinds including fake ones, childhood obesity, this generation of children supposedly being the “sickest generation,” infertility due to primary ovarian insufficiency, and even death, as in death by sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS). Basically, whatever the health issue, to antivaxxers, it is, first and foremost, always about the vaccines. Always. No mater how implausible and lacking in evidence the link between vaccines and a given disease or health condition is, antivaxxers will find a way to blame it on vaccines. Indeed, even now, in the age of the COVID-19 pandemic, they’ve found ways to blame the influenza vaccine for COVID-19, particularly now that flu season is here. However, one of the wildest claims I’ve ever seen about vaccines is that they are “transhumanism,” a claim being made by über-quack “Dr.” Joe Mercola in an article on The Vaccine Reaction, the house blog of Barbara Loe Fisher’s antivaccine group the Orwellian-named National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC), entitled Will New COVID Vaccine Make You Transhuman?, an article based on a video by one Dr. Carrie Madej:

Two years ago, in October 2018, Forbes contributor Neil Sahota, a United Nations artificial intelligence adviser and UC Irvine professor, warned that transhumanism is fast approaching—likely faster than you think.1 “In the past few years, there has been considerable discussion around the idea we are slowly merging with our technology, that we are becoming transhuman, with updated abilities, including enhanced intelligence, strength, and awareness,” Sahota writes.

The goal of the transhumanist movement, or “Human 2.0,” is to transcend biology into technology. Or, as Dr. Carrie Madej explains in the video above, to meld human biology with technology and artificial intelligence.

Two visible proponents of transhumanism are Ray Kurzweil (director of engineering at Google since 2012) and Elon Musk (founder of SpaceX, Tesla and Neuralink).

We’ll get to the video in a minute, because it is truly beyond the pale. I had never heard of Carrie Madej, DO before (or, if I had, I didn’t remember her). The website featuring her video, Stop World Control, describes her thusly:

Dr Carrie Madej directed two large medical clinics in the state of Georgia, USA. Since her twenties she has been fascinated by vaccines and studied them ever since. Her in depth research led her to discover what the proposed technologies are for the new COVID-19 vaccines. What she is revealing is alarming.

This video is an in depth documentary that shows how these new vaccines can alter our DNA, turning us into hybrids. The plans are to connect humans to artificial intelligence and global control networks. This is the start of transhumanism, turning us into HUMANS 2.0.

“Study.” You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. Seriously, I bet that Dr. Madej “studies” vaccines in the same way that Mike Adams does, her being a physician notwithstanding.

In any event, I found out a bit more. Dr. Madej is an internist in McDonough, Georgia. She’s Medical Director of Phoenix Medical Group of Georgia, where she has a full time practice in Internal Medicine. Her Twitter feed is a wretched hive of scum, quackery, and conspiracy theories. Unsurprisingly, she is an antimasker, seems to buy into every major conspiracy theory about COVID-19 out there, and has appeared on The Alex Jones Show, antivaxxer Sherri Tenpenny’s show, and on Mike Adams’ show. She also gave a virtual speech to the gathering of antimaskers and COVID-19 lockdown protesters at Trafalgar Square last month. It’s odd that I haven’t heard of her before.

So what is “transhumanism“? However, I describe it, I’m sure someone will object, but here goes anyway. Basically, it is a social, scientific, and philosophical movement devoted to the idea that humans can be enhanced by technology, be it biological, computer-based, or physical. The idea is that such technologies would augment or increase human perception, physical abilities, intelligence, and cognition, and also radically improve human health and extend human life spans. Unsurprisingly, the movement’s adherents tend to be employed in technology, biotech, and academia, and there is a strong link between libertarianism and transhumanism. The ultimate outcome is thought to be the “singularity,” a time when computers become so advanced that artificial intelligence transcends human intelligence, potentially erasing the boundary between humanity and computers, even leading to the merging of humans and computers. Personally, I’ve always looked a bit askance at transhumanism, because there is certainly a lot of woo in the movement. Moreover, transhumanists do tend to assume that the coming “singularity” will necessarily be a good thing. Science fiction, however, provides many potential counterexamples, SkyNet in the Terminator movies and the Borg in Star Trek being two of the most famous of them.

Nonetheless, I am not opposed on general principle to human-enhancing technologies. After all, what is medicine but an effort over many millennia to overcome the inherent biological weaknesses and defects in humans in order to enhance and extend lifespans by preventing at least premature death from infirmity and external disease? True, there is a philosophical argument to be had over how much modification might be too much, but that’s not what Mercola and his antivax cranks are about. Rather, just as antivaxxers have used the COVID-19 pandemic and President Trump’s “Operation Warp Speed” program to stoke fear that any new COVID-19 vaccine will be unsafe, having been rushed to approval too quickly with inadequate safety testing, and thereby to cast doubt on all vaccines, here antivaxxers are painting COVID-19 vaccines as incipient “transhumanism” in order to—you guessed it!—spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about all vaccines. Naturally, they’re focusing on mRNA vaccines, such as the COVID-19 vaccine candidates from Moderna, BioNTech, Fosun Pharma, and Pfizer:

Many of the COVID-19 vaccines currently being fast-tracked are not conventional vaccines. Their design is aimed at manipulating your very biology, and therefore have the potential to alter the biology of the entire human race.

Conventional vaccines train your body to recognize and respond to the proteins of a particular virus by injecting a small amount of the actual viral protein into your body, thereby triggering an immune response and the development of antibodies.

This is not what happens with an mRNA vaccine. The theory behind these vaccines is that when you inject the mRNA into your cells, it will stimulate your cells to manufacture their own viral protein. The mRNA COVID-19 vaccine will be the first of its kind. No mRNA vaccine has ever been licensed before. And, to add insult to injury, they’re forgoing all animal safety testing.

First of all, this is a bit silly. If there’s one thing about mRNA, it’s that (1) it doesn’t integrate into the genome of the cells that it enters, meaning that it can’t permanently “reprogram” a cell and (2) it’s a remarkably unstable molecule, which is why RNA vaccines currently have to be stored at -90°C and why there’s been concern about the mass distribution of such vaccines, given that few doctors’ offices and clinics have the capability of storing doses at that cold a temperature and there would be concern about keeping the vaccines sufficiently cold during transport. (It’s also why Moderna is working to make its vaccines more stable, now claiming that they can be stored at -20°C and will be stable for about a week at 2° to 8°C, and other companies making mRNA vaccines are frantically working to make the required storage conditions less frigid.) Indeed, some of these logistical issues are why I’ve always been a bit skeptical of RNA vaccines. I’m not skeptical that they can work. I’m sure they can. The problem is that I’m not convinced that whatever advantages they might have outweigh the many disadvantages in terms of their storage and distribution, slick videos by companies like Moderna notwithstanding:

So how do RNA vaccines work? The idea is that the mRNA (messenger RNA) gets into the human cells and does its thing, providing the template that the cell’s ribosomes use to “translate” the genetic code in the mRNA into protein, in this case the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, which is secreted and generates an immune response. I was quite amused by how impressed Mercola was by Dr. Carrie Madej’s claims. First:

Madej goes on to discuss how this mRNA vaccine is going to be administered. Rather than a conventional injection, the vaccine will be administered using a microneedle platform. Not only can it be mass produced quickly, but it can also be administered by anyone. It’s as simple at attaching an adhesive bandage to your arm.

The adhesive side of the bandage has rows of tiny microneedles and a hydrogel base that contains luciferase enzyme and the vaccine itself. Because of their tiny size, the microneedles are said to be nearly painless when pressed into the skin. The idea is that the microneedles will puncture the skin, delivering the modified synthetic RNA into the nucleus of your cells. RNA is essentially coding material that your body uses. In this case, as mentioned, the instructions are to produce the SARS-CoV-2 viral protein.

The part of Dr. Madej’s video where she describes this couldn’t be more obvious. While explaining the microneedle platform, the video flashes an image of a viper and its long fangs, ready to strike. She’s also conflating technology being developed with the actual Moderna vaccine and other RNA vaccines. Right now, they are not going to be delivered using microneedle bandages. That’s a technology that’s still being tested. Dr. Madej is getting ahead of herself here. After all, the current form of the Moderna vaccine doesn’t use microneedles. It’s a standard vaccine that’s injected, two shots given a month apart, and is intended to work as described in the video above.

I also laughed out loud reading the above passage. The nucleus of your cells? Nonsense! That’s not how protein synthesis works! mRNA is translated to protein in the cytoplasm (the part of the cell outside the nucleus but within the cell membrane). After DNA in the nucleus is transcribed to mRNA by an enzyme called RNA polymerase, the mRNA thus produced is transported out of the nucleus into the cytoplasm, where ribosomes use it as the template to make proteins. Sure, the system is more complicated than that, but I don’t need to go into how some mRNAs start out as longer precursors that are spliced into the final mRNA before being used in translation. The basic outline above is enough for a lay person to understand why Dr. Madej is full of you-know-what. Here’s a handy-dandy image from Wikipedia:

Seriously, Drs. Mercola and Madej need to pick up a Biology 101 textbook. No, really. This stuff is in the early chapters about cell biology. It’s really, really basic. It gets worse, though:

The problem with all of this, Madej notes, is that they’re using a process called transfection — a process used to create genetically modified organisms. She points out that research has confirmed GMO foods are not as healthy as conventional unmodified foods. The question is, might we also become less healthy? “Vaccine manufacturers have stated that this will not alter our DNA, our genome,” Madej says.
I say that is not true. Because if we use this process to make a genetically modified organism, why would it not do the same thing to a human? I don’t know why they’re saying that. If you look at the definition of transfection, it will tell you that it can be a temporary change in the cell. And I think that is what the vaccine manufacturers are banking on. Or, it’s a possibility for it to become stable, to be taken up into the genome, and to be so stable that it will start replicating when the genome replicates. Meaning it is now a permanent part of your genome. That’s a chance that we’re taking. It could be temporary, or it could be permanent.

Dr. Madej says this is not true. Well whoop-de-doo and la-dee-da! No, seriously. This is not a DNA vaccine. It is not possible for the RNA to “become stable” and be taken up into the genome. (Indeed, RNA viruses that can integrate into the genome rely on first being reverse transcribed into DNA.) Again, this is not even Molecular Biology 101. It’s high school Biology 101. As for transfection, all that is is a technique to introduce RNA or DNA into cells. Most commonly it’s used to introduce plasmids (circular lengths of DNA containing genes of interest) into cells. Methods range from really old school methods that I used in graduate school 30 years ago, such as calcium phosphate precipitation (which is horrendously inefficient) to various liposome-based methods. (Liposomes are small spheres of lipid, which can bind to the cell membrane and fuse with it, thus delivering plasmid into the cytoplasm.) While, it is true that the introduction of mRNA into a cell will produce a temporary change, namely the cell’s ribosomes using the mRNA to make the desired protein, that temporary change is just that. It has nothing to do with altering the cell permanently, and as soon as the mRNA degrades naturally the cell will go back to normal. Seriously, Dr. Madej, molecular biologists are laughing at you.

Dr. Madej is also apparently all worked up about a protein called luciferase. Luciferase is an enzyme that is commonly used in molecular biology because it produces bioluminescence. (More specifically, it acts on a compound called luciferin.) Most commonly, it’s used as a “reporter gene.” The idea is that you insert the gene for luciferase into a plasmid after various DNA sequences that regulate gene expression (how much mRNA and protein the gene makes). These sequences are known as promoter or enhancer regions. You then transfect cells with the plasmid. By measuring changes in light emission of the cells, either by harvesting them and extracting the proteins and measuring how much bioluminescence is produced when substrate and appropriate cofactors are added, or by looking at them under an appropriate microscope, you can see how various manipulations of the cells (e.g., drugs, changes in the media, changes in expression of other genes) communicate with the reporter/enhancer sequences to increase or decrease the activity of the reporter gene luciferase.

So what’s the obsession with luciferase, other than that some cranks (I’m looking at you, Mike Adams) have latched onto its name to associate it with the Devil? Let’s see:

Another part of the delivery system that raises its own set of questions is the use of the enzyme luciferase, which has bioluminescent qualities. While invisible under normal conditions, using a cellphone app or special device, you will be able to see a glowing vaccination mark.

As described in the journal RSC Advances7 in 2015, luciferase gene-loaded quantum dots “can efficiently deliver genes into cells.” The abstract discusses their use as “self-illuminating probes for hepatoma imaging,” but the fact that quantum dots can deliver genetic material is interesting in itself.

The hydrogel, meanwhile, is a DARPA invention that involves nanotechnology and nanobots. This “bioelectronic interface” is part of how the vaccination mark will be able to connect to your smartphone, Madej says, providing information about blood sugar, heart rate and any number of other biological data.

“It has the potential to see almost anything that goes on in your body,” Madej says. This will have immediate ramifications for our privacy, yet no one has yet addressed where this information will be going. Who will collect and have access to all this data? Who will be responsible for protecting it? How will it be used?

Again, this is not how the Moderna and other mRNA vaccines are going to be administered, at least not now. Also, the reference she cites merely describes using luciferase vectors as a way to image liver cancers. As for the luciferase, as it’s just there to show where the vaccine was injected and to demonstrate that cells did take up whatever was on the microneedles. I’m also amused how Dr. Madej apparently doesn’t know how to pronounce “luciferase.” I laughed out loud when she first mispronounced it, although she started pronouncing it closer to the correct pronunciation as time went on. Moreover, luciferase is an enzyme, and, unless the vector used to introduce it into human skin cells truly did integrate with the nucleus, any luminescence from luciferase would be temporary. The enzyme would degrade, over time, as would the plasmid that makes it.

As for the marking, I’ve discussed that before. She’s appears to be referring to quantum dot tags, basically copper-based quantum dots embedded in biocompatible, micron-scale capsules. They’re tagged with a near-infrared dye that’s invisible, but the pattern they set can be read and interpreted by a customized smartphone. Even these are not permanent, as the currently estimated time during which they can be read is five years.

None of this stops Dr. Madej from going full conspiracy crank:

We’re gonna be branded. Each person will have their own ID. This reminds me of World War II. You know, it’s something to think about, being branded like a product in the store…So we’ll be branded. What can that be used for. There are lots of technologies out there, and that’s something we need to be concerned about.

Gee, that reference to World War II and branding wouldn’t be a reference to the Nazis tattooing prisoner identification numbers on the inmates in their concentration camps, would it?

There’s so much more in this video that I might have to do a second post at some point. (The segment on Hydrogel make me chuckle and groan in equal measure) However, this post is about COVID-19 vaccines and the claim that they will us transhuman. What’s depressing is that there are real issues to consider when it comes to using technology like quantum dots to mark us, but the paranoid conspiracy mongering, coupled with the ignorance of basic biology, used by cranks like Mercola and Madej obscures any legitimate concerns, subsuming them into full blown QAnon-like conspiracy:

Getting back to the mRNA vaccines, time will tell just how hazardous they end up being. Clearly, if the changes end up being permanent, the chance of long-term side effects is much greater than if they end up being temporary.

In a worst-case scenario, whatever changes occur could even be generational. The problem is these issues won’t be readily apparent any time soon. In my view, this vaccine could easily turn into a global catastrophe the likes of which we’ve never experienced before.

We really should not be quick to dismiss the idea that these vaccines may cause permanent genetic changes, because we now have proof that even conventional vaccines have the ability to do that, and they don’t involve the insertion of synthetic RNA.

No, we do not, and the example cited doesn’t show what Mercola thinks it does:

After the H1N1 swine flu of 2009, the ASO3-adjuvanted swine flu vaccine Pandemrix (a fast-tracked vaccine used in Europe but not in the U.S. during 2009-2010) was causally linked9 to childhood narcolepsy, which abruptly skyrocketed in several countries.

Children and teens in Finland, the U.K. and Sweden were among the hardest hit. Further analyses discerned a rise in narcolepsy among adults who received the vaccine as well, although the link wasn’t as obvious as that in children and adolescents.

A 2019 study16 reported finding a “novel association between Pandemrix-associated narcolepsy and the non-coding RNA gene GDNF-AS1”—a gene thought to regulate the production of glial cell line-derived neurotrophic factor or GDNF, a protein that plays an important role in neuronal survival.

They also confirmed a strong association between vaccine-induced narcolepsy and a certain haplotype, suggesting “variation in genes related to immunity and neuronal survival may interact to increase the susceptibility to Pandemrix-induced narcolepsy in certain individuals.”

Steve Novella has discussed the issue of whether Pandemrix caused a spike in the incidence of narcolepsy in these countries. It’s important to note that this is a strange case. The association was only observed in specific countries and not in others (including the US) in which the vaccine does not appear to be a consistent or unique risk factor for narcolepsy in these populations. Overall, it was a confusing set of data to derive any clear picture of whether the H1N1 vaccine was a true risk factor. On the other hand, there are data suggesting that Pandemrix might trigger the production of antibodies that can also bind to a receptor in brain cells that help regulate sleepiness in genetically susceptible people. Basically, the whole situation is confusing, and it’s not clear if any of the H1N1 vaccines truly caused narcolepsy.

Also, the study cited by Mercola does not show that the H1N1 vaccine caused permanent genetic changes. The investigators did a genome-wide association study (GWAS), a type of study that frequently finds associations that do not hold up to scrutiny but can nonetheless be useful for hypothesis generation. What this study shows is an association between the haplotype and “vaccine-induced narcolepsy,” not that the H1N1 vaccine produced “permanent genetic changes.” Mercola is either grossly ignorant of basic biology, or he’s lying, knowing that his audience doesn’t know the difference. Take your pick.

The bottom line is that Mercola and Madej are doing nothing more than putting a COVID-19-based spin on an old antivaccine trope, one that I first saw eight years ago, when Sayer Ji claimed that vaccines are transhumanism in the service of subverting evolution by interfering with how we have co-evolved with pathogens. A few years later, antivaxxer Sherri Tenpenny was making the same sort of nonsensical argument, but by then antivaxxers had started pointing to DNA vaccines as a hopelessly unnatural corruption of our genes that reminds me a lot of the claim that trace amounts of contaminating DNA from the cell lines used to grow viral antigens for some vaccines can somehow get into the brain, express “non-self” proteins, and trigger an autoimmune response causing autism. (Truly, to antivaxxers, DNA and RNA are magic!) Again, it’s all an appeal to “nature” as being somehow always superior to anything humans can do. They view vaccines as “unnatural” to the point of altering what human beings are.

Of course, just because something is natural does not make it good, benign, or even just neutral. Nature is harsh, and the battle for survival brutal, and it’s completely “natural” for all manner of animals to be eaten by bigger, faster, and hungrier animals, and it’s just as natural for humans do die horrible deaths from infectious diseases. Yet the mindset behind so much of “alternative” medicine and antivaccine views is that natural is always good and that anything synthetic should be viewed with extreme suspicion. It’s silly, because even “natural” nutrients and medicines are just as much chemicals as any synthetic nutrient or chemical. We have to judge whether such chemicals are harmful based on science and where the evidence leads us, not based on whether the chemical is “natural” or not.

In the end, there’s so much antivaccine and COVID-19 pseudoscience coming from Madej that I suspect this will not be the last time I write about her. She really is an up-and-coming crank, and now that Mercola has amplified her message I expect, alas, to see a lot more of her. She’s an all-purpose conspiracy theorist.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

203 replies on “Dr. Carrie Madej: COVID-19 mRNA vaccines are transhumanism!”

This poor woman is clearly as mad as a box of frogs , and in desperate need of help.
Can you imagine being one of her patients ?!

Disinformation here about wonderful Dr Madej who has hundreds of happy patients. She is a brave whistle blower against deadly vaccinations telling truth about the Covid 19 scamdemic. Dr Madej and truth will prevail while the evil haters of God and truth burn in hell.

“Brave whistle blower”? Not at all! It’s more like her being another example of how physicians can fail critical thinking just as badly as any non-physician. I mean, seriously. How can you get through medical school and not understand the VERY basic molecular biology that shows that an mRNA vaccine can’t “permanently alter” your DNA in the way she’s claiming?

Well, a friend of mine with a cochlear implant jokingly calls herself “a cyborg”. And I think it’s great we have those implants, pacemakers, hip implants or intraocular lenses (judging by my family history, I’ll probably get one, if I live long enough). And I am pretty certain that all those antivaxxers who have latched onto “the evil transhumanism” will be very glad to get them, too.

The Luciferian doctrine plan is to turn everyone into cyborgs with Ai vaccinations, duh, do you people ever read?

” … need to pick up a Biology 101 text..:”
How often do I want to say ( scream?) the same thing when I hear or read woo-meisters/ anti-vaxxers/ scoffers at RI.
I imagine that a basic grasp of life science would inoculate most people from accepting related pseudoscience. BUT IT DOESN’T as we know only too well.
Actually, I venture that anyone who buys into typical anti-vax ideas fails because of the unlikely scenarios that are required to explain how vaccines cause autism whilst simultaneously dismissing all of the evidence of lack of a relationship between vaccines and autism AND research about how autism truly develops .
Also, the nonsense about DNA **

I like that Orac mentions her mispronunciation. I take it as a warning sign when an “expert” alt med advocate mispronounces terms from an area which they are supposed to know inside out because if you study something formally or work in the area you will hear it pronounced hundreds or thousands of times

** I notice though that they frequently choose topics which the average person- their target- may have little or no background.for arcane terminology and handwaving
Even anti-vax mothers who have college degrees fall into their traps.( Wright, Rossi, Taylor, Kuo etc). .


I wonder what she thinks viruses are. SARS-CoV-2 isn’t all that different from some messenger RNA in a fancy wrapper. It enters cells and demands that its RNA be replicated and its proteins made. mRNA vaccines don’t even demand that the mRNA is replicated.

Hi Doug , that’s exactly what I don’t understand . Let the virus rip , go for herd immunity , let viral rna run free , that’s all fine . Yet one piece of vaccine rna is going to change us into transhumans . It’s insane.

She points out that research has confirmed GMO foods are not as healthy as conventional unmodified foods. The question is, might we also become less healthy?

1 – False.
2 – Genetics are truly the new magick. What can these nefarious GMOs not do?

Actually, it’s an appeal to purity. Even one hint of being touched by the impure stuff and you are corrupted forever.

Interesting in that she has an active Georgia medical license but says in a recent YouTube video that she stopped being a clinician in 2015 and instead lives in the Dominican Republic doing mostly charity work, telehealth and occasionally coming to Georgia to see patients. ( , first 40 seconds). She’s also highlighted alongside Del Bigtree in the top row of billed speakers at the “Unity Rally for Medical Freedom” in Central Florida on October 25th ( ).

There’s an angle here for this quack shyster that hasn’t been uncovered yet.

I want to recommend to everyone the YT video “In Search of a Flat Earth” that Tim linked to a couple days back.

Synopsis, in the first part a skeptic named Dan Olson begins by showing his debunking of flat earth theories. Then – noting that his proofs have no effect on the flat earthers he encounters – he presents an analysis of what flat earth really is: a conspiracy theory based in a barely displaced fundamentalist Biblical evangelical worldview. Halfway through the video, he notes that the flat earth social media groups have been losing members “because they’ve all gone to QAnon!”. The 2nd part then digs into the QAnon phenomenon, which in many ways parallels the flat earth stuff..

I recommend the video not just for it’s specifics on those forms of conspiracy theory – I doubt readers here are much interested in flat earth – but because a lot of it strikes me as suggesting similar points about other CTs, including, I think, hard-core antivaxxers. I was especially taken by the example of a “Q drop” that poses a long list of “what about?” questions that just goes all over the place to the point of being utterly overwhelming. Olson describes this as “sandwich filler” for the actual agenda of support for a crypto-authoritarian state. The CT is characterized by the massive volume of psuedo-knowledge it generates, largely an inconsistent and chaotic mess, constantly morphing with new old goo phasing out and new goo coming in, to the point where he eschews doing an inventory because it would be ut of date by the time the video went up. Pretty much anything can go in the sandwich, because the movement isn’t about factual knowledge, it’s about outcomes, about power. This, he says, makes the movement immune to evidence.

The reason they aren’t more bothered by Q constantly getting things wrong, by extreme inconsistencies and outright contradictions… is because it gives them power over others who are bound by something as weak and flimsy as reality… They engage in wild hypocrisy as an act of domination, adhering to something demonstrably untrue out of spite, because they believe power belongs to those with the greatest will to take it… Their will is a hammer they are using to beat reality itself into a shape of their choosing.

Now if that doesn’t describe pretty much every antivax troll who’s ever appeared here, I don’t know what does.

How might this apply to Carrie Madej, DO, then. I do sense a wider agenda there, in her anti-maskism, the conspicuous display of the cross, and the whole ‘Stop World Control’ shtick, (not to mention that she’s from Georgia and looks likes she could be related to QAnon soon-to-be-Congresswoman Marjorie Tayor Greene). which makes me think that the horror warnings of transhumanisms and the details of mRNA – accurate or not – are just the newest flavors of filler in the antivax sandwich, yet another cycle of “what about?” on which to hang a desperate attempt to wrench power back from a recalcitrant unpleasant reality.

All of which suggests that none of the detailed granular debunking Orac does will have any effect on anyone down the antivax rabbit hole or headed in that direction with any momentum. [Not that this makes the activity useless, necessarily…] But then, we knew that already, I think. The question is whether Olson’s analysis helps us understand why this is a little better, such that we might be more effective at devising strategies for pulling at least some folks back from the edge. Though frankly, I have no idea what those might be…

The Conspiracy Chart:

I was that conspiracy guy. For me, it was a sense of betrayal that let me a little out (that, and this blog).

The first day I ever heard of Alex Jones was on September 11, 2001. I was frantically tuning the short wave looking for my goto, William Cooper (The Hour of the Time), found him, he was raving, “I told you so”, faded out — I scrambled sticking bamboo poles in the backyard and stringing a long-wire antenna, then way up the band I found Alex (not only raving, but frothing and cussing to) — I fell in love.

I knew that they did not like each other.. Cooper had warned of Jones many times though I just took it as a kind of ‘sibling rivalry’. I was listening to Cooper the last night of his life one November 2001 night before he was gunned down by police on his own property. I also was undergoing somewhat of a ‘traumatic experience’ myself whilst listening.

{FF 2015} Jones had Trump on his show; His show became the Rodger Stone Show; MFW WTF, dude?? These ones are everything you have been raiing, ranting, and warning about and now this?? I became very paranoid (and not in a good way).

Anywhoo, just my two bitcoin.

p.s. jet fuel does not melt steel beams.

I’ll bite once and stop here.

There is ‘melt’ like ‘makes a goo out of a solid thing’.
And there is ‘melt’ like ‘decreases the structural rigidity of a rod of solid stuff’.
The latter doesn’t need the stuff to get to the melting point temperature.

I spent some time in my youth stretching Pasteur pipettes out of glass tubings, with a Bunsen burner. You quickly learn the difference between ‘soften’ and ‘melt’.
And it’s fun. A few glass pretzels may have been made.

As a structural engineer I can tell that much of the engineering material science class was on the how heat and chilling can affect the crystal structure of various types of steel, and there is also a bit about how temperature changes the Young’s and Poisson ratio. There is a reason I avoid 9/11 truthers.


And I am sure you know the result should have been chaotic, resulting in the buildings falling all over the place….

Instead we saw not one, not two ,but multiple buildings falling flat like pancakes, in defiance of the expected result that all fires have done to buildings, they fall in unpredictable ways.

The only times I ever saw a building fall like a pancake was when high rise hotels in Atlantic City were wired and taken down flat as pancakes, in controlled implosions.

What happened at the World Trade Center was impossible.

Impossible? No.
Many years ago, I saw a Youtube video made by a blacksmith who was fed up with 9/11 conspiracy theorists. First, he took a steel rod that was the same grade as the steel in the WTC and stuck it into a slot in his anvil. He was able to move the anvil by using the rod as a lever. Then he took a steel rod that was again of the same grade but now heated up and again, put it into the same slot on his anvil.
He was able to bend the rod using just his pinky finger.
As for the other collapses, there’s a very obvious explanation. Two huge buildings each weighing tens of thousands of tons collapsed. At that close range, the vibrations were like being in an earthquake. It is not that surprising that other buildings had their structural integrity compromised to the point that they collapsed too.
I am done with conspiracy theorists and their fantastical ideas.

@ Aelxa

And I am sure you know the result should have been chaotic, resulting in the buildings falling all over the place.

Not really. You are thinking of things built with a core and successive layers put around it, like an old castle. Or maybe you are thinking that the towers should have fallen like a tree, from the bottom. Except a tree (or a building) falls this way when it has been cut at the bottom The towers were hit near the top.
The outside walls of the Twin Towers were doubling as the load-bearing structure. I found somewhere on the internet a picture of the sun shining through one of the towers, showing that the inside of the tower was literally see-through. Aside from the lifts and a few office partitions.
The buildings disintegrated along the induced fracture lines. First the floors above or near the impact, and then the lower floors failed to absorb the combined shock and weight from above and ruptured one after another.
The towers were built like a card castle. And they fell like one.

Also, define “chaotic”.
The result sure looked like “all over the place” to me.

And I was starting to like you…

@ Athaic:

My late cousin studied architecture and engineering and created energy saving designs for large buildings like skyscrapers since the 1980s: after 911, he was hit by a barrage of requests – mostly from tabloids and ‘documentary’ filmmakers – trying to find an alternative explanation for the collapse which he actively avoided because he lived in the real world. In fact, it became a family joke because they also bothered his father, my uncle, who had a similar name and was extremely sarcastic.

And the troll proves yet again why I ignore her. Especially with that proud display of her ignorance of physics. I am sure her ignorance is pretty deep on just about everything else.

I really enjoyed the video sadmar linked and the chart from Tim. Wow!

Conspiracy theories utilise “filler’ for their ( hard to swallow,) “sandwiches” of ideas ( Dan Olson).
I notice that woo BS artists toss in ludicrous filler including actual terms/ issues from physiology/ biochemistry/ science** but frequently used incorrectly or even randomly in order to impress the marks with their ‘expertise’. Another form of filler must, of necessity, insult doctors, institutions and pharmaceuticals, which is another aim of their programming

** epigenetics, Occam’s razor, peer review (sic) research PCR,, chemical names of arcane nutrients alongside their own inventions

What is missing with this post?? The ‘flying monkey squad’. No, No, No, verbotin! Some someone somewhere might be spreading this link far and wide; and, and no takers??

“Well, it COULD be (or happen, or whatever)” is the phrase that usually pops out ot their mouths whenever you try to pose something so preposterous that you are sure it will make them see how ridiculous their claim must be.

I don’t know about this elaborate power theory–I think it’s just the same thing that drives people to believe in imaginary sky gods or participate in ritual purification and dietary religious “laws”–or more temporally, the weird Catholic teachings on marriage and sex roles, motherhood and transubstantiation, especially when practiced as orthodoxy such as by the Supreme Court nominee, Amy Coney Barrett, and espoused by millions, including many of my relatives by marriage, with a straight face.

Nine children in that family. My MIL got a dispensation from the priest to use birth control for four years after being told that another pregnancy after seven in six years (!) would likely kill her (she has a problem with blood clots still). Two more babies then arrived a year apart, at which time, her “headship” (mercifully I’d say) dropped dead of a heart attack.

And these people all hate–or at least mistrust– Muslims for being “repressive” or “barbaric”. But they all love Trump and Fox News. My husband is now the family outcast–happily.

Indeed, vaccines are leading us down the path to transhumanism, and this goal will be achieved by turning our children into autistic zombies.

That apparently is the thesis of Wayne McRoy’s book “The Autism Epidemic: Transhumanism’s Dirty Little Secret”. According to one reviewer, “(McElroy) ties the autism epidemic to an elite agenda that wants to use autistic individuals in the quest to achieve singularity and merge human consciousness with machine, in this way taking our freedom and individuality and ability to have our own thoughts. According to the author the acceptance and normalization of autism will lead to the use and later widespread use of neuroprosthetic implants and the connection of our consciousness to the internet and a hive mind.”

Vaccines are not the only culprit; EMFs are on the list too.

Just think about that before you sign up for 5G and become one with the machine

No no no. The purpose of merging human consciousness with machines is to give machines freedom, individuality and the ability to have their own thoughts. Until then machines are slaves and that’s an injustice.

I fix machines for a living. If the machine is merged with a human conciousness, would that make me a doctor. Mind you, I’d quit. At least machines in functioning order carry out their jobs correctly. Humans seem unable to push buttons in the correct order without developing weird ideas about multiple repeats and varying hold times. These ideas spread like a virus, despite written instructions right in front of their noses.


Humans seem unable to push buttons in the correct order without developing weird ideas about multiple repeats and varying hold times.

Oh shit, I was a clarinet player. Guilty, as charged.

the autism epidemic to an elite agenda that wants to use autistic individuals in the quest to achieve singularity and merge human consciousness with machine

There is a DLC-sidequest in the video game Mass Effect 2 (2010) where a (to say the least) misguided scientist hook up his autistic brother to a complex computer.
Don’t know who stole the idea from who.

1 – no vaccine were involved
2 – the autistic brother was hooked up because he is of the “idiot savant” type, à la Rain Man. His ability to extract square roots of prime numbers in his head is that get him “volunteered”.
3 – if you, the player, get to the trouble of saving his bacon, in the sequel Mass Effect 3 he will appears – still autistic – and will save your bacon. Well, convincing the students you are out to rescue that you are the good guy/lass.
Oh, and one possible end – and a good end – of the Mass Effect trilogy is transhumanism.

I guess my point is, if I am to indulge in sci-fi transhumanism stories, I think I will fire up Mass Effect again. It seems better written.

Trivia. Just found out on Wikipedia that the game production was impacted by the 2009 flu epidemics.

due to the 2009 flu pandemic, a significant part of the team was ill during the last months of development, resulting in a loss of a man-year of time.

@ Tim

I choked and got my Tali dead before 3

Ah! During my first playthrough, I didn’t pay enough attention to all the clues about the characters’ qualities and flaws, and the final suicide mission got a few casualties.
Putting in charge of a fireteam the guy who had showed a blatant disregard to teamwork, and previously to that managed to get his merc business stolen from under him by his second-in-command, was not my brightest idea.
Also, as you know, it was the one mission where you should not wait to do it. I didn’t know and waited.
Comes the third opus, my PC takes the lift to the third deck of the Normandy, and right here across the exit, surprise, there is this memorial to all the people my Shepard managed to get killed in the previous two games. It was quite full.
Taught me the importance of managing human resources.

2009 flu: Ah, the infamous PAX pox incident. PAX is/was a major gaming convention in Seattle (there is/was on the East Coast as well) and in 2009 someone went with swine flu.

The convention did an admirable job of alerting attendees to the infection (when they found out after the event). “If you were on these flights (list), these buses (list) or these trains (list), you were exposed to swine flu, get tested and stay home.”

An acquaintance of mine got it there and was quite sick.

“However, I describe it, I’m sure someone will object”

I’m not. I like Orac’s take on the T word. I don’t know much about neuralink, but I think it just connects to a bunch of semi-random/localized neurons and, through cloud computing, bada boom bada bing, does machine learning/computer vision to suss out it’s own mapping/translation as to what it is supposed to be doing.

It does seem so sci-fi and it does have those ‘tendrils’ (microfilament conductors) much as tv/films depict such a chip: Upgrade, Brave New World, Raised by Wolves, and (my favorite) CW’s The 100’s the flame.

Musk’s video reveal of the pig implants playing a soundtrack of neurons firing was widely panned. But, data, data, data, data data data data and a computer that started with nothing teaches itself and beats the world’s most foremost experts at go (much harder than chess) — AlphaGo.

I don’t want a hole drilled in my skull just yet while it is still in beta, but I certainly can evision it restoring a severed spine before Starship gets to Mars.

There was a House episode years ago where they used an algoritm and fMRI to visualize a patient’s dream; I can’t remember the number, can’t find it, or you bet I’d link that unminimized.

The problem for me is that most people don’t know even high school biology, and that people who are not anti-vaccine can be misled by it, especially when a doctor is saying this. I’ve had discussion with a few.

She has the potential to cause real harm. Thank you for taking this on.

I took HS biology, but my knowledge of biology (what I managed to retain) is decades out of date. I think that also trips up a lot of people — most of us haven’t kept up with advances in biology, so we don’t know how to counter the quackery.

“No mater how implausible and lacking in evidence the link between vaccines and a given disease or health condition is, antivaxxers will find a way to blame it on vaccines.”

No, no, no. Firstly they are not antivaxxers; they did vaccinate but now they won’t, ever again. It’s very rare to find someone smart enough to be antivaccine without having to be hit over the head with vaccine injury in either themselves or their children, siblings, parents, etc … I am not that smart. In fact, compared to them; I am a total dumb ass because I let it happen twice.

EXCEPT … for this Q thing. Suddenly, we have antivaxxers who are only antivax because Q told them to be, lol. This is not the time to perseverate over quality vs quantity. I welcome them & just ignore the 5G rants & Trump worship. Useful. Otherwise, no matter how much science is slandered to quash the evidence between vaccines & “a given disease or health condition”; these are evident:

If GBS was diagnosed more in early summer rather than mid-winter (after flu shot campaigns); there would be less antivaxxers.
If adult onset schizophrenia was diagnosed spread out in ages 20-50, instead of ages 18-22 (after college required vaccines); there would be less antivaxxers.
If pediatric AFM outbreaks happened at the start of summer vacation rather than the end of it (after back to school vaccines); there would be less antivaxxers.
If adolescent POTS were diagnosed anytime before the first dose of HPV vax, instead of after the third; there would be less antivaxxers.
If autistic regression happened before the first MMR dose was given instead of after; there would be less antivaxxers.
Additionally, if the MMR was given not less than 6 months after the infant vaccines & not with ANY other vaccines; there would be less antivaxxers. And less autism. And less severe autism.
If more babies died from SIDS the week before their infant vaccines, instead of the week after them; there would be less antivaxxers.

Until Q, of course. Now you have actual antivaxxers AND us exvaxxers . Oh well!

My understanding of vaccines “changing DNA” is rudimentary. I’m not sure that is actually happening. I don’t think it HAS to, to change how our immune systems function. If a Measles antigen is combined with an adjuvent & injected, therefore bypassing the immune system capabilities of the skin & respiratory membranes; you will develop “sort of Measles” antibodies (unless you are a nonresponder like me; then you won’t & that IS ‘in the genes’).

Which for at least a few years, is good enough to fight off actual Measles infections. But isn’t everything else in the vaccine is also combined with that adjuvant? Are people developing unneeded “immunity” to bovine serum too? Is this causing reactions in the gut after ingesting “bovine products”? Beef? Cow’s milk? How does the body “decide” to accept immunity to “sort of measles” but not “sort of cows”?

If the HepB vaccine provides an immune response against hepatitis, is it also causing an immune response against aluminum? Would that turn off our ability to metabolize aluminum & lead to our tissues becoming aluminum reservoirs?

Not rhetorical questions. Your welcome for the laugh. Sigh.

Thank you. Hahahahahahahahahah! Ha Ha Ha!



Points at Christine ->>> HA!

Do you do birthday parties?

*the Q thing”

— Q thing

— I’m sure he is very good at it but it worries me. If I could just make an analogy; If it was like, say, i don’t know, cards or penuckle …

–I’m sorry, but your analogy is a very bad one… If you want to make a comparison to something, compare it to something that makes sense. Compare it to math, or music, or art. Otherwise, it belittles him, and it, and me.

— You want to know how good he is?? I’ll tell you how good he is… He is better at this than you will ever be at anything. {I’t’s not the “Q-thing”, it is Q}

{Lake Placid continuation of looking into the pure heart of the demon’s eyes eludes me}


Try reading that again, Christine said would “an immune response AGAINST aluminum” happen? In other words, would the immune system become sensitized to Aluminum, and possibly send antibodies to attack the aluminum absorbed by the body from food, etc?

And she was not speculating about the events that happen after certain vaccines are given, they are known to happen. The fact that these known increases in certain “diseases” or “disorders” after specific vaccinations are given, are then ignored is the interesting part.

The fact that these known increases in certain “diseases” or “disorders” after specific vaccinations are given, are then ignored is the interesting part.

If you are referring to autism after the MMR Vaccine, this has been proven to be sheer random chance. Unvaccinated children developed autism at the same rates as vaccinated children.

You just speculate that vaccines cause everything. You must prove your claims you. Being immune to aluminium is quite ridiculous statement.
There are more aluminium in baking premix than in the whole vaccination schedule, even after absorption is accounted. Perhaps those schizophrenic people where eating to many cakes ? Actually schizophrenia was known dementia praecox (juvenile dementia) before vaccines.

@ Arno:

Also not all people with schizophrenia receive vaccines for university because not all of them GO to university. Many young people in that age group worldwide enter the armed forces and receive vaccines- does that lead to SMI? Do new service people suddenly get schizophrenia frequently or is their rate the same as that of the general population ( around 1%)? Why don’t we hear about this?

Needless to say precise genetic markers, familiar patterns, MZ/ DZ twin studies, childhood precursors and predromal syndrome have all been studied for decades as well as research on brain differences, neurotransmitters, prenatal factors, social and environmental factors.These causes have been studied to death and are EASY to find on the internet/ in text books. there are research organisations and imaging labs ( NARSAD, LONI, respectively) that focus on this Sometimes psychologists have to educate consumers about causation because myths about mental illness are prevalent and destructive…

If everything is caused by vaccines, I suppose that before vaccines became so widespread in the 1980s-90s ( or whatever anti-vaxxers postulate) virtually NO ONE had ADHD, ADD, ASD, ID, SMI, LD,
but wait. ,
all of that existed although it may have been called something else or hidden away in governmental hospitals prior to de-institutionalisation. If you live in the US or UK, you can view many huge former institutions that housed the mentally ill or people with ID, ASD etc. now emptied
But anti-vaxxers don’t account for those populations because they can’t be explained away by vaccines… .. .

Aarno Syvänen writes,

“You must prove your claims you. Being immune to aluminium is quite ridiculous statement.”

MJD says,

Christine Kincaid is right, again. If “you” can’t prove a negative, exclusionary means may be a vial alternative (e.g., exvaxxer’s); especially when a history of vaccine injury is presented in a family.

Being immune to a aluminum complex is an insightful statement!

@ Christine,

It’s dangerous to laugh at a boxer who can land a knockout punch.

@ Aarno,

No, wait. I didn’t say immune TO aluminum, I said causing an immune RESPONSE against aluminum.

Typical response by the body to aluminum is to metabolize or excrete it out of the body. Everyone here tells me that we encounter aluminum naturally in our environment all the time. So we already have an immune system mechanism in place to deal with that aluminum, correct?

Are aluminum containing vaccines “immunizing” us against our BODY’S mechanism to excrete aluminum, because an immune response is triggered when the body goes to launch that response, to form antibodies against the hepatitis B? Meaning that all aluminum ingested, inhaled, absorbed & injected not only stays but accumulates.

We become immune to our own aluminum metabolism, not the aluminum.

@MJD Proving positive and proving negative are very different things. First one requires just one paper, second one results with string of negative results, which makes claim very improbable.
@Christine Kincaid Aluminium is not removed by immune system. Kidney removes it.

Are aluminum containing vaccines “immunizing” us against our BODY’S mechanism to excrete aluminum,

To echo Aarno, this is not how things work.
While Mithridatism is over-rated, the mechanisms we have to neutralize and excrete stuff like metal ions are stimulated upon exposure, not suppressed.


Well, the rate of Autism before the 1990s was one in 2,000+ children, and now it is down to one in 54 children.

There are certain genetics known to cause Autism but those genes have not increased in the human population, as they tend to eliminate themselves due to the carriers tending to avoid other people and human contact.

Yes, these syndromes, disorders and diseases existed before, they were just not very prevelant at all, most were very rare.

I went to grade school in the 1950s and early 1960s, and there was not one kid with ADD, ADHD, Autism, etc. Kids sat quietly in class and paid attention. Anyone being sent to the principals was rare, and no one was on medication to control behavior.

It is mind boggling that we now have to drug kids to get them to sit and learn quietly in school. But people like you who never experienced the 1950s and early 1960s think drugging kids is perfectly normal for some crazy reason.

You all live in a crazy world that never existed before vaccinations became commonplace after the late1960s, and more and more frequent mandated vaccinations, and for diseases we thought of as basically benign childhood illnesses which rarely had bad aftereffects.

There was one person in my school who had a brother that was mentally handicapped and he was in school with the rest of us, and not kept in an institution. And he was accepted by everyone as a nice guy, slow but that was the way Charlie was, he was born that way.

If we had to institutionalize one in 54 kids with Autism now practically every town would have a mental institution in it. We would be hip deep in jobs taking care of these people

The extreme uptick in these disorders is astronomical, and is a huge drain on families who have to take care of these children for life. That people refuse to accept that something unnatural is causing this huge increase, is the very weird part.

Do you think it is the air we breathe or what? The Autism Fairy is going around smacking kids on their heads making them Autistic? Especially right after getting vaccinations, just for the hell of it?

If so, tell the Autism Fairy to stop smacking kids around. And while you are at it tell the ADD, ADHD etc Fairies the same message.

Aarno and Athaic

The vaccine manufacturers use Aluminum as an adjuvant, a material that PROVOKES an immune response, so the immune system will develop antibodies to the disease particles in the vaccine which are too small or too few to normally provoke the immune system to respond.

Now what part of that means the immune system is not reacting to Aluminum as you claim?

And Christine said the body normally detoxes and eliminates things like Aluminum, she did not say the immune system was normally involved. Yet here we have vaccine manufacturers using Aluminum as an adjuvant.

Tell me, once you sensitize the immune system, how does it react to that substance after sensitization? Do you think it ignores it?


According to this paper, the military has found one in 4 recruits as a mental health problem……

The interesting part is the number of genes found that are connected to schizophrenia, yet they have no idea what turns those genes on and then suddenly they are dealing with a soldier who is unstable in the field.

Interesting things genes, you can have a gene and it may never be turned on and cause problems. Yet the US military is finding 25% of their recruits develop mental problems during their service.

What could be causing that? That is a hell of alot of people becoming mentally disabled. Way more than in civilian life. Of course, the military get alot of unusual vaccinations, and are exposed to various toxins civilians are hardly ever exposed to.

But maybe it is the air they breathe, or a certain Military class Mental Illness Fairy?

@Aelxa “Turning genes on” is not how genes cause genetic diseases. Actually, it is defective genes, with a disease causing mutation.

@Vaccine manufacturers use aluminium to boost immune system, as any CAM providers do. This is an innate system reaction. This does not mean that it aluminium desensitises immune system against aluminium. Kidneys remove aluminium, not immune system.

@Aelxa, just because we didn’t have the tools to detect these diseases doesn’t mean they were rare before. As the old joke goes:

Mt Everest was discovered in 1856. What was the highest mountain before then?
Answer – Mount Everest.

With autism, greater awareness, broadened diagnostic criteria, diagnostic substitution and previous underdiagnoses explain the increased rates of diagnosis.

I went to grade school in the 1950s and early 1960s, and there was not one kid with ADD, ADHD, Autism, etc.

Oh yes there were. I was in mainstream schooling for the entirety of my education, and I’m definitely autistic. The more severe cases were in special schools, and the ones like me were considered weird or eccentric.

You all live in a crazy world that never existed before vaccinations became commonplace…and for diseases we thought of as basically benign childhood illnesses which rarely had bad aftereffects.

The only person living in a crazy world is you, Aelxa. Every year, those diseases killed thousands and disabled many times that number. Measles caused deafness. Polio outbreaks paralysed thousands and condemned many to a life inside iron lungs. Smallpox mowed down up to a third of those who caught it. Diphtheria and pertussis damaged lungs and organs. There was a reason why parents literally lined up around the block to get their children vaccinated against polio.

If we had to institutionalize one in 54 [autistics] now…

The increase has been on the less severely affected end of the spectrum. This is a complete and utter straw man.

[T]he US military is finding 25% of their recruits develop mental problems during their service.

Oh wow, I wonder what could be causing that. It’s not like military life is extremely stressful or anything.
Oh wait.

To quote the Judge in the film “Fried Green Tomatoes”, you got a whole loada’ nothin’. You’ve started with the premise that vaccines cause problems, and you’ve been twisting the evidence to support it in increasingly laughable ways.

@ Julian Frost,

No I’m not. I wanted educated responses to help me think it through. I don’t mind being ridiculed along the way, I need those flaws in thinking pointed out to me. That’s my first priority.

In that case, I recommend a 4th grade math class, so you can learn fractions and understand the difference between number of total infant deaths per 1,000 and number of SIDS death per 100,000.

@ Terrie:

I think that you and Julian are both correct:
if after months of “asking questions” and being informed by Orac and his followers who produce SB research/ evidence with many dozens of posts and comments, if scoffers persist, they are un-reachable and merely show up at RI to disseminate their anti-vax talking points; in fact, some of them even admit it.- they want to warn people about how vaccines are dangerous and persuade them to not vaccinate….

Texts about basic mathematics, biology, physiology, psychology or history will not affect people who are motivated to NOT learn. I frequently counsel women who want to acquire degrees who have no problem learning despite not being native English speakers or having had family support for expanding their educational and occupational horizons.

Orac has readers who want to learn, many of them silent… . . ,

The only quibble – if it’s that – that I will put to that is that since these claims are almost never new, and are repeated by other science deniers outside RI, providing counters – to some extent, and not so much that people are focusing on the science denier for too long – can help us respond to them elsewhere. In that sense, they’re not a waste of time. For example, often when Joel responds to someone who is not going to listen or learn, I learn a lot – and that is true of the answers of many of you.

In part, by responding, advocates help each other.

@ Dprit Reiss:

Of course, I agree.
*I think that it’s important to point out- especially to newbies/ drop-ins- that scoffers have LONG histories here
We support each other and increase educational opportunities across the board..

Unfortunately, I observe the same basic “informational” infrasctructure amongst woo-meisters/ anti-vax proselytisers with NON-SBM “facts”.
Some of the garbage I read or hear is actually frightening – especially about Covid- and future vaccines. I’m sure it will have a deleterious effect prolonging the pandemic and increasing its severity and economic consequences. .

@Denice, the part that disgusts me the most is people who fall over themselves, practically rending their clothing, to show the “horrors” of having a child with a “vaccine injury” but who would also happily spit on any family dealing with disability if they don’t blame vaccines and dismiss their struggles as “disability lite.” That makes it clear they don’t care about children, only about themselves.

“…they are not antivaxxers; they did vaccinate but now they won’t, ever again.”

The claim that “there are no antivaxers, just ex-vaxers” ignores the considerable percentage of antivaxers who believe tales of vaccine injury heard from a friend of a friend, or anonymous Internet anecdotes. There are also libertarians who are antivax because of legal mandates, people who resent the medical profession and health experts, and needle phobics. Antivax ideology involves a rancid stew of varying motivations.

“EXCEPT … for this Q thing. Suddenly, we have antivaxxers who are only antivax because Q told them to be, lol. This is not the time to perseverate over quality vs quantity. I welcome them & just ignore the 5G rants & Trump worship.”

Why is not surprising that antivaxers would welcome support from a cultish movement with violent overtones, which is loaded down with ludicrously false beliefs?

You have so much in common with the QAnon crowd.

@ DB,

"The claim that “there are no antivaxers, just ex-vaxers” ignores the considerable
percentage of antivaxers who believe tales of vaccine injury heard from a friend of a
friend, or anonymous Internet anecdotes. There are also libertarians who are antivax
because of legal mandates, people who resent the medical profession and health
experts, and needle phobics. ideology involves a rancid stew of varying motivations."

Yes, I suppose you are right on that one. Sometimes I don’t ‘count’ those people because they are not as invested in it as I am. They aren’t antivaccine like I am antivaccine. They haven’t earned it the same way I have. Fortunately for them.

"You have so much in common with the QAnon crowd".



What disgusts me is you saying that people with children who were damaged by vaccines would ” happily spit on any family dealing with a disability that don’t blame vaccines and dismiss their struggles as ‘disability lite’ “.

Where you get off saying that is amazingly cruel, and I have never seen that behavior in any group of parcents dealing with their children’s disabilities.

Disabilities come in every shape and color and different causes, parents do not go around saying their child’s disability has more validity because it was caused by a certain factor.

But perhaps you just like spreading such nasty rumors for the attention.

parents do not go around saying their child’s disability has more validity because it was caused by a certain factor.

That’s not exactly true.
Misery loves company, but also is picky about the company it keeps.
It’s not just antivaxers, it’s quite universal, from let to right. Find a group of oppressed/vulnerable/disabled people.
I can guarantee you, look long enough and you will find people advocating for their group ana label to be restricted to only ‘true’ sufferers, and to keep out people who are not suffering ‘enough’, or not ‘the right way’.
A complex case mixing practicability (keeping the label meaningful by restricting it) and appeal to purity (a.k.a. going into cult-like behavior).

In the case of autism, you have parents advocating for the label to be restricted to ‘true’ autistic children, and to exclude ADHD, Asperger, and other ‘light’ versions of autism.
Conveniently, they forget about using these strict criteria whenever talking about one child every 54.

Dr. Carrie has got amazing info and super easy on the eyes. I’d listen to her all day long. Thanks for sharing her with us.

“easy on the eyes”

So is a Barbie doll. I’m a licensed phrenologist and divine that her cortex is as smooth as her forehead, soutijuafatty.

Dr. Carrie has got amazing info and super easy on the eyes.

Easy on the eyes, perhaps. Painfully hard on the mind, definitely.

I’d listen to her all day long.

You poor fool.

@ norcalskinny,

I agree. It’s amazing how attractive like minded people are.

Someone told me once that when the human eye/brain sees someone they consider to be attractive, that what they are actually ‘seeing’ is health.

WTF, CK? you think that r/instagramreality filtered clusterfuck is ‘attractive’?? Not judging… just, dayam.. Don’t invite me for a thruple.

She comes across as very trustworthy and concerned about others especially their health. Thats what I see.

And, actually, CK; What is smelled is the other person’s immune system exuding stuff. These registered smells are largely subconscious — So, knowing that, there is hope for you; just not in the way you think.

Seemingly trustworthy and caring is no indication of actual knowledge and ability. Frankly, I’d rather deal with a complete twat who backs up his or her statements than a delightful beauty who talks bollocks.

So if the firefighter telling you to evacuate a wildfire wasn’t conventionally attractive, you’d stay put?

Someone go find author Scott Westerfield and tell him that his Uglies series has come to life.

I prefer men with multi-syllabic vocabularies who know what they are doing. Like my wonderful husband, and for disease prevention: Dr. Fauci.

You are an honest-to-god paid troll, are you not?? You are not very good at it and I’ll bet your handlers are monitoring this.Bu bye.

She does not know that genetic instructions are carried by DNA, not RNA. Could she really be that stupid ? My guess is that she is not, and she just plays for conspiracy theorists. You get lots of internet visibility by saying really stupid things.

You are really a gullible fool. It is not like we have not seen this exponential growth before. We are all trying to be like St. Louis, MO and not like Philadelphia, PA.


DNA only holds genetic information, to transmit the information an mRNA molecule must be formed. The mRNA carries genetic instructions to the cell to form protein from the genetic program held in the mRNA.

DNA is just a storage pod, and does not give the instructions to cells, that is the mRNA function.DNA just sits there, without mRNA it does nothing.

@ Aelxa

DNA is just a storage pod

I think Aarno knows that full well.
(we could nitpick about the just-a-storage part, but I’m no geneticist)

The point we are discussing is the following: could it be there is a risk of the RNA in vaccines making its way into our genome and changing us permanently.
This is that Madej and a few others are claiming.
Which means, as a first step – the first of many -, for the RNA to be reverse-transcripted into DNA.
Another point to put forward is that, in order for these changes to stick, it isn’t enough for them to happen in our somatic cells. They need to happen in our germinal cells as well – in our gametes. That’s a bit more difficult.

Madej seems to be overlooking the finer details of both these points.

DNA carries genetic instructions in a sense that only changes in it are heritable. MRNA carries these instructions to ribosomes, where proteins are made.
Any case, semantics is irrelevant. Changes in RNA are heritable only in some viruses (One of them being SARS CoV 2).

As a point of accuracy, luciferase is not luminescent. It is an enzyme and its substrate, luciferin, is the thing that glows. Luciferins are small molecules that are luminescent in the presence of oxygen and sometimes ATP. In order for that to happen, the luciferase must knock a small piece off the luciferin. Fireflies and certain bacteria are examples of this.

Yeah, I forgot to mention luciferin, mainly because it’s been probably a decade since I myself have personally performed a luciferase transfection and assay!

One thing that gets me about transhumanism and alarmism over integration of technology is that we’ve always been cyborgs, since the emergence of homo sapiens sapiens. We externalized and technologized significant elements of our digestive system tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years ago. We externalized and technologized significant elements of our thermal regulatory systems, and our teeth and claws, and so on, tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of years ago. In the past couple of centuries, many of use have externalized and technologized elements of our visual perception system, and in the past few decades, many others have done so with their auditory perception system.

I guess the difference is supposedly making these enhancements internal, but, it seems really weird to me to be more alarmed about internalized enhancements than externalized enhancements that involve atrophy and loss of function of “inherent” and internal capabilities.

Dan Simmons has a big part of his Hyperion canticles series written around these concepts of “what is human?”.
In these books, there is an open war between ‘vanilla’ humans, who terraformed and settled in various places in the galaxy amenable to human life as we know it, and mutant/transhuman societies – people who underwent massive genetic modifications to adapt themselves to truly alien worlds.
Spoilers – in the end, the mutants were no less ‘human’ than the others.

It’s indeed a point I fail to catch with these discussions about transhumanism, for or against – how it is supposed to make us more or less human.
Well, Dan Simmons conjonctures on Teilhard de Chardin’s Omega point are a fun read. (it’s like the Singularity, except the human mind fusion is not with machines, but with god – or we collectively become god. Details are also a bit sketchy.)

@ MJD,

"Being immune to a aluminum complex is an insightful statement!"

I never quite understood your position on latex before but … something occurred to me. If the immune response triggered by the injection targets everything injected, (the antigen, the adjuvent, bovine cells, etc …) couldn’t it also include any ‘foreign’ materials used in manufacturing & packaging? Is this where latex allergies are ‘born’? Or; is the body ‘trained’ to not react to & excrete the chemicals used in latex, also causing a ‘buildup’?

Now I need to find the papers you have written to see what direction you were going with the latex theory.

@ Aarno,

"Aluminium is not removed by immune system. Kidney removes it."

It has to make it to the kidneys first. And the kidney contains immune cells too.

Only quite big molecules cause immune system reaction. Yes, one can be allergic to penicillin. This is because penicillin reacts with proteins. You presumably can be allergic to aluminium, too, but this is a different thing,

@ Tim,

"WTF, CK? you think that r/instagramreality filtered clusterfuck is ‘attractive’?? Not judging… just, dayam.. Don’t invite me for a thruple."

Lol! I guess you could be right about the filters. I literally just started an instagram account two weeks ago & don’t know how to use filters for pics yet. Don’t really know how to recognize a filtered pic if I saw one, except I notice some women post pictures where their nose seems to disappear. I can see most of her nose. Maybe not all of it. hmm

Not your type maybe.

It’s the eyes. Her head does not look tilted but eye elevation is uncanny valley. Also, the nostrils: one is a cavernous gulf and the other a pinhole. I could be a bit insensitive with that observation as it is also a perfectly cromulent assumption that her ex bashed her skull in with a baseball bat.. That is just rude, violence is rarely the answer.

Meh, whenever you figure them out, please, please, please don’t go around abusing the big butt/boob/lip feature as it is gross/not ‘lit’.

FFS, the more I look, the more it’s like a grownup kid from The Hills Have Eyes. Also, maybe it is Orac’s low resolution posting, but that crucifix has no chain; like it is glued there. Also, her shadowed-out cleavage is wrong, unless she is eleven.

This ‘person’ does not exist as depicted. Period.

As to latex above: Some of my earliest memories were of birthday parties and pain. Blowing up ballons resulted in a burning sensation — mom said it was the ‘dust’ inside them — going to the dentist was a hated experience because my mouth would be on fire for a couple days after. Later, mom developed a severe reaction and all the hospital wards had latex warnings on her door (but, in the ’90’s were stupidly ‘adhered’ to).

It is called asymptomatic sensitization where you get exposed, get exposed, get exposed, get anaphalaxic shock. Same with wasp stings — It was first noticed widescale in nurses that they would have red palms everyday and then just drop dead. They, at the time, blamed it on cornstarch also.

I don’t think it is shots, it usually develops over years. I just think everybody is ‘allergic’ to latex and varying exposure brings it out. Also, kiwi fruit can fuck allllll the way off to.

Here’s my thing about all this “transhumanism” and “vaccines integrate into the genome!” stuff: if it was seriously that easy to get a gene to integrate and make the protein you want, then why the heck has it taken so long to make CAR-T cancer therapies? And why are they so effing hard to make?

Oh, that’s right, because it isn’t easy to get genes to integrate where you want them to. And it isn’t easy to clone out cells (let alone anything bigger than a cell).
If any of this stuff was easy then sickle-cell disease and type I diabetes and cystic fibrosis and a host of other diseases would have been cured a decade ago!

CK: “Someone told me once that when the human eye/brain sees someone they consider to be attractive, that what they are actually ‘seeing’ is health.”

Most of Ted Bundy’s victims apparently thought he was attractive.

Based on the violent and deranged yahoos accepted in the antivax movement, you get the feeling that if Bundy could be reanimated and persuaded to adopt antivaccine ideology, antivaxers would happily accept his support, while defending him as a misunderstood women’s rights advocate.

@ DB,

Ted Bundy WAS attractive. And healthy.

Nobody could have persuaded Bundy to be one way or the other. He would “be” whatever was needed to get what he wanted.

Meaning; our children are not being force vaccinated without our consent while at school. Like what happened in Pakistan last year

Yes it is, but not just vaccines. Here, we beat the ever-living shit outta the kids so they don’t dare tell you about it. I might can round up a Volkswagen Bug, wanna take a ride??

@ Christine Kincaid

Unfortunately, as we already have seen unethical use of vaccines and medical procedures in Pakistan… (They were used to pigeon-hole and track Al-Qaeda, which is ethical on our side, but not on their side…) and as defiance is high, I would oppose force or stealth vaccination in Pakistan. On purely political grounds.

@ F68.10

They were used to pigeon-hole and track Al-Qaeda, which is ethical on our side,

Talk for yourself.
(knowing you, I actually assume you are talking about ‘us’ westerners, not ‘us’ you)

I had recently an interesting conversation about this event on a blog of one of Orac’s friends. Made me realize I was holding some very subjective romantic views on commando/assassination raids on enemy leaders.
Anyway, I was already not considering it ethical to muck up with the deliveries of life-saving treatments (as polio vaccines are) in order to track a criminal,

Collateral damage. On innocent children, and if the fate of foreign children don’t concern you (again, not ‘you’ you, but ‘you’ US/western deciders and movers), on US people working with the local healthcare organizations.
In the long term, not much different from a carpet bomb run.

@ kincaid

lol “violent antivaxxers’. This isn’t Pakistan yet.

Meaning; our children are not being force vaccinated

If you were a player at one of my RPG session, as the game master I would say “nice save”.
You are no Rogue, so still taking half-damage.

Translation: I won’t forget how you plainly said once how you wished for US antivaxers to take matters in hand like the Pakistanis antivaxers did.

@ Tim,

How is the US like Pakistan?

Knowing me I would even help you carry something to your VW bug if you had your arm in a sling.

So Christine, are you being self-deprecating about being stupid because you think it will make us look at you more kindly or just because you are,well–stupid?

@ brainmatterz,

Neither. It’s not even ‘self-depreciating’. I WOULD likely have helped Bundy to his car.

That doesn’t mean I wouldn’t have survived him.

I was a research subject once. Not for medical science but for forensic science. In the 1980s, the FBI launched a huge profiling database project. Not only for violent offenders but their victims. Who was at risk for being targeted. Why were they chosen as a target, etc.

Unfortunately; there are not many women who have survived a sexually violent serial offender but I did, in 1988. The FBI was involved in that investigation & the offenders capture. He profiled as ‘A Bundy” (their words) & I agreed to participate in the research & be profiled as a victim.

Not being self-depreciating; I am just aware of being vulnerable, however; I survived & HE went to prison where he couldn’t hurt anyone else & they were able to link him to other crimes & solve those in the process, as well as bring closure to the one other woman (that I am aware of) that also survived him. What it is about me that makes me vulnerable isn’t something that can be ‘fixed’, nor do I want or need to be fixed.

One way in which the US is like Pakistan is that you both have serious religious fundamentalists with the power to push their agendas.


We only have a minority of religious nuts, about 20% of the population.

The problem is we have a bigger percentage of fools who believe whatever story is told to them, instead paying attention to the storytellers actions. Just call the US a nation of “battered spouses”.

Hence a conman sits in the White House.

20% is huge.

I advocate for religious tolerance. When it crosses the line into politics or criminality or child abuse, it’s not merely a question of tolerance.

Transhumanism is bad enough, but it appears that the forces of Evil are interfering with Donald Trump’s natural healing processes. This takes some explanation, but should be alarming to all right-thinking Americans and even some foreigners.

One of the loonier regulars on the Gazillions of Imaginary Health Freedom Fighters website has revealed that his group intervened to “protect” Trump from a toxic overload of Covid-19 drugs during his recent illness.

”It is for this reason that a number of us in relay used techniques upon him which delete all toxins. Partially we used the Clearing Transmissions, which anyone with the DVD can use, and other, more advanced techniques which require study and practice. We did not restrict ourselves to neutralising the dangerous pharmaceuticals but deleted ALL toxins. It is quite possible that his body has, thereby, become, physiologically, literally 20 years “younger”.”

Earlier in the article it was noted that Covid-19 doesn’t exist (it’s really the same as the common cold) and colds aren’t even a disease – they’re the body’s natural means of ridding itself of toxins in time for winter. So in effect, Trump’s remote healers were interfering with a natural process of toxin removal, which could only have had a deleterious effect on our supreme Leader.

This sounds like just the sort of nefarious plot that QAnon was meant to uncover and counteract.

Stay tuned…


Where is Major Tom when you need him.

Clearing toxins and disease by transmissions? Neat trick.

Maybe if I stare at my naval long enough it would help.

@ Athiac,

"If you were a player at one of my RPG session, as the game master I would say “nice save”.

Nice catch?

But really. The US is not Pakistan. I have so many acquaintances who are terrified of what happened to those children in Pakistan happening here. Their fear frustrates me.

Meaning (lol); what happened in Pakistan TO THE CHILDREN, shouldn’t & probably won’t happen here, in the US.

The reaction to what happened in Pakistan wouldn’t happen here either.

“CIA used fake vaccination campaign to as a part of their Osama bin Laden operation. This is why there is still polio in Pakistan.”

There was heavy Taliban/fundamentalist religious opposition to vaccination in the region before the CIA’s ill-advised operation and afterwards. The CIA is not the reason why vaccination workers continue to be attacked. It furnishes an excuse, not a justification.

Kincaid knows full well that. But this is not what she is referring to.

She is having fantasy dreams about what happened around that. Namely, that healthcare workers on a vaccination trip were murdered by some suspicious locals.

In a previous comment some time ago – before you became a regular here, IIRC – , she made it clear she wished for something similar to happen in the US.
She voiced it along the lines of American antivaxers to “take a more hand-on approach like the Pakistanis antivaxers”.

That these murdered workers were likely unrelated to whatever shenanigans the CIA or other healthcare workers may have been involved with, is of no matter to her.

What “happened to the children?”

Because what actually happened was medical volunteers were murdered.

What kind of monster are you?


What happened in Pakistan, is that hundreds of children became sick after being vaccinated without parental consent at school & were taken directly from the school to the hospital. The parents didn’t know what was going on until they were told that their children were hospitalized.

That has never happened here, to my knowledge.

As you may know, I do not respond to anti-vax trolls BUT they may mislead people who aren’t aware of SBM research about mental illness and developmental disorders.
First of all, schizophrenia is not caused by vaccines: we know a great deal about how genes interact with environmental factors and vaccines are not one of them. In fact, schizophrenia- broadly- like autism has genetic roots and can be effected by prenatal and perinatal events. shows a list of causes and frequencies. Because autism may not be diagnosed before age 2-4 or schizophrenia before age18-22 does not mean that these conditions are not already developing. If you have the genes to be over 6′ tall, you are not over 6′ tall at age 2 but the eventuality has been set up and although it can be affected by the environment, you won’t be short.:

–videos of kids who were later diagnosed with schizophrenia show differences that are apparent, as well as learning difficulties and other problems compared to people who are not ever diagnosed. The rate of this illness is higher in relatives especially in MZ twins relative to degree of genetic similarity. There is a prodrome that anticipates diagnosis. There are structural / chemical differences in the brain that are set up many years before the obvious symptoms. Knowing family history, early experiences and demographics can show a person’s risk of schizophrenia years before dx…
NONE OF THIS RESEARCH IS NEW- some is decades old.

— similarly, we know that vaccines don’t cause autism. Julian does a good job of explaining common misconceptions about rates so I’ll only add that in the UK, older people who were never diagnosed as children were considered ASD when questioned at the present time with new diagnostic criteria at rates similar to that of present day chldren.AS he notes, the additional subjects are mostly in the least affected quartrile/ what was called “Asperger’s”
Sally Ozonoff studied kids who were at risk ( siblings with autism) and found differences in how they behaved/.interacted at 6 months of age. EEG studies ( UCLA) show brain wave differences at 3 months of age. Other researchers ( Aldridge, Miles) show subtle intra-facial dimensions differentiating mild vs severe ASDs. Courchesne shows prenatal development- second trimester- of ASDs. He’s been studying this for over 30 years! Research shows that maternal infection, medication use or dietary deficiency during gestation can predispose towards ASDs.
No studies show a relationship between vaccination and autism: Hviid’s and Jain’s are especially informative.

No university presents courses about vaccines as causative of ASDs or SMI YET their respective genetics and prenatal development are studied deeply.. I wonder why.
So universities are all wrong- worldwide- and RFK jr, Wakefield, Null, Adams, Bigtree, Tenpenny, Shaw, Exley et al are correct?

Speaking of antivax scientists, the saga of Mahin Khatami makes for interesting reading. A professor in Florida has been waging a campaign to get a bizarre paper of hers retracted. According to Retraction Watch:

“The 2018 paper (“Cancer; an induced disease of twentieth century!” published in Clinical and Translational Medicine) is a bizarre mishmash. Among her claims, in no particular order, are that the polio vaccine is linked to human cancers, that cancer is not hundreds or even thousands of diseases but:

only one disease; the severe disturbances in biorhythms (differential bioenergetics) or loss of balance in Yin and Yang of effective immunity.”

Not only that, vaccines in general are part of the process of unleashing “dark energy” that leads to cancer, thanks to the sinister cancer/medical establishment which is out to generate huge corporate profits. In another groundbreaking paper Khatami tackles the plot to sell HPV vaccines which she thinks are designed to create drug dependency. Actually, that paper has relatively little to say about HPV vaccination but is more a stream-of-consciousness rant about cancer research featuring highly relevant quotes like:

“People cannot see the camel in the minaret, but they can see the hair in its nose ”

This woman makes Russell Blaylock look sane.

Well, almost.

*Orac was once invited to a panel “discussion” on vaccines featuring a number of antivaxers including Khatami. He declined the invite. 🙁

@ Athaic,

Good grief. DB referenced ‘dangerous antivaxxers’. Where that came from, I couldn’t begin to know, UNLESS he was talking about Pakistan, which I didn’t think he was. “What happened” to CAUSE parents to become ‘violent antivaxxers’ had nothing to do with any CIA operative. Nobody here wants to acknowledge what happened TO THEIR CHILDREN.

And I don’t believe I ever said I wished that would happen here. If you could maybe provide a source so I could respond to that, instead of your perception of what was said?

I think Aarno has been here longer than I have, btw.

Is it about autism ? In Japan MMR vaccination was ended, and autism rate went up.
Honda H, Shimizu Y, Rutter M. No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study. J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9. doi: 10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01425.x. PMID: 15877763.
Can you comment that ?

@ Aarno,

No it wasn’t about autism. They became ill after a Polio vaccine. Pakistan is still using the live vaccine; the oral drops.

I thought the general consensus around here was that autism rates increased due to “better testing” the autidm rates did exactly what they SHOULD have done after discontinuing the MMR, since it is the cumulative effect of the HepB + the Dtap AND the MMR that is causing autism.

Japan stopped using the MMR in 1993 & the autism rates peaked in 1994. Since autism is usually not diagnosed until after the age of 12 months; that’s sort of what should be expected. Unfortunately, Japan started the HepB in the late 1990s & the rates that had started to fall due to the lack of the MMR being included in the mix, leveled off & plateaued way higher than what they had been before the MMR was banned.

You yourself think autism diagnosis fully reflects autism prevalence. Why this is not true in this case ?
Paper says this:
Results: The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.
a) Children up to seven years were investigated
b) MMR vaccination rate declined significantly before 1993
c) Endpoint was 1996.
d) Autism rate did not peak at 1994. It rose significantly starting with the birth cohort 1988 and dramatically starting from 1993.
How there could be a synergistic effect between MMR and other vaccines when there is no MMR vaccination ?
Polio rumor was just a rumor, as Terrie said

CK: “DB referenced ‘dangerous antivaxers’. Where that came from, I couldn’t begin to know”

When you put words in quotes you should make sure the person you’re quoting said them. I did not.

What I actually referenced were “violent and deranged yahoos accepted in the antivax movement” – referring to the QAnon types you happily welcome as support.

Of course, antivaxers who employ death threats also qualify, as well as Del Bigtree, a leading antivaxer who once urged followers to use their Second Amendment power (i.e. guns) to get their way.

He remains adored by antivaxers, with no consequences for his call to violence.

@ DB:

Del and Adams know how to select their words so that they stop just short of clearly advocating violence BUT social media is aware of their history, subtext and ulterior motivation and thus, cut them short. Most of the people I survey have been tossed from FB, twitter and/ or YouTube.

HOWEVER don’t anti-vaxxers already cause enough damage ( or, metaphorical violence if you will) when they frighten people away from children’s, flu and future vaccines? If only 50% accept a Covid vaccine, won’t the pandemic drag on longer and result in more deaths, serious illness and economic consequences because herd immunity, via vaccination uptake, would not ever be achieved?

They persist because there is no way that consequences could ever be pinned directly on specific individuals who poisoned the well against vaccines that don’t even exist yet although they’ve cultivated this enterprise for years. Although I understand that the leaders of this movement are greatly responsible, followers who spread misinformation and fear are not innocent.

(As a side note, hopefully for a good laugh-
as I write Null ( PRN) discourages vaccine advice from Bill Gates “who never graduated form college” UNLIKE HIMSELF
For new readers, Null’s academic history is… shall we say,,,, creative..)

@ Aarno,

"You yourself think autism diagnosis fully reflects autism prevalence."

No; that is wrong, that is not what I think. That is one of my main criticisms of autism/vaccine studies, actually.

Autism prevalence in the US is completely independent of a medical diagnosis. Prevalence is not counted by diagnosis. Prevalence is counted by supports required in schools for 8 year olds; the CDC does not use having a diagnosis as a criteria because that leads to under counting.

Only studies of vaccines correlated to autism use medical diagnosis; specifically, they use the ICD10 codes on a child’s medical record. Whether or not they are KNOWINGLY using the one method already KNOWN to lead to an under count, I don’t know but if one was trying to set up methodology for a study to skew the results of vaccines impact on autism rates; that’s a very good start.

@ Aarno,

The same way the CDC does; Educational identification at the age of 8 years old.

Was the child identified to receive early intervention supports for ASD?
Does the child receive services determined on a 504 or IEP for ASD?

Many autistic children here do not have F84. 0 on their medical record but they are in special education & requiring accommodations for autism.

Those children would not be counted in a study looking at vaccines correlated to autism, simply because they do not have F84. 0 in their chart or electronic health record.

If a children get education services without autism diagnosis, there is two possibilities:
a) autism is underdiagnosed
b) child needs special education and autism is reported to guarantee that (autism like symptoms)
Any case, argument was that if MMR vaccination causes autism, stopping it will cause autism to disappear. Even medical diagnoses would notice should a dramatic change.


Lots of kids with Autism are not diagnosed with it until much later than 8yo.

My son had a “speech delay and emotional and behavioral impairment” diagnosis until he was in the 7th grade. That was when he was finally sent to a state university center that tested specifically for Autism.

I protested his previous diagnosis for years, but no one listened until he was in middle school.

So since my son was not diagnosed at 8 years of age, he is not counted.

Talk about a lousy system, it shouldn’t matter what age the child is when they are finally diagnosed with Autism.

In rural areas they have few resources, so these kids are ignored and side-lined into the “behavioral problems” catagory and parents left with no supports. Getting an Autism diagnosis can take forever, and in some cases it never happens.

In my case I sent him to the local Charter MiddleSchool that was started by parents like me, whose children never got the services they had had listed in their IEP. It was the Special Education specialist at the Charter school who referred him to the university two hours away for evaluation and his final diagnosis with Autism.

The local school system did not care as they did not have the money to treat Autism, so he never got the early supports that would have made the difference. Now he is 28, and he never leaves his room.

And I can say on both sides of the family there is no mental problems found going back for over five generations, but suddenly there is a child with Autism.

The question is WHY?

@Aelxa Interesting thing is that Japanese study I mentioned used autism questionnaire, like CDC. Jain used insurance claims
Do you know about recessive genes ? Children will be neurotypical, when only one parent has such a gene. These are called carriers. Only when when both parents have such a gene, result is autism.

@ Aarno:

To add to you point:
it’s not only recessive genes BUT there is de novo variation, that is, there are changes in the genes- deletions or replications of parts of it- that are associated with ASDs- thus, the parent doesn’t really pass down a gene, it is novel. In fact, in genetic studies of families with autistic kids, when there is only one child affected, it is frequently de novo variation but where there are more than one, it is more likely to be inherited in the usual way. More than 100 genes so far,
— also, something else happened in the mid-1990s. the diagnostic codes for ASDs changed and were changed again in the 21st Century ( DSM III, DSM IV, DSM 5) expanding the dx both times
There’s more but I have work.


Do I know about recessive genes???

Ahhh, yes. And gene studies were done. Guess what, no recessive genes or any genes connected with Autism were found.

I live in the US with decent health insurance and all the testing was done. And even repeated as years went by and new genes were found and doctors wanted new gene analysis done.


In fact, many kids who were diagnosed with Autism are now not considered Autistic.

It is one way to reduce Autism numbers, change the diagnosis criteria. Every few years they make changes to the criteria, it is as fluid as the water in the ocean.

ODD ….Oppositional Defiant Disorder is a new one.

Kids with Autism hate change, and they will let you know about it. But now they are no longer kids with Autism, instead they have ODD.

Odd how names and criteria change so much.

Let me see if I have this right…your argument is that the prevalence of ASD is higher than we realize simply because not every person affected is ever diagnosed as having it?

If that’s the case, what method and metrics do you use to decide if a person falls into this category if not medical diagnosis? If a person “feels” like they have autism, do they? Who decides? To what end?

Your inference is clearly that there is some kind of overall impetus to “setup” or “skew” any investigation into vaccines and autism one way. We get it. No amount of convincing will change your beliefs.

This is a huge issue in the US right now; the notion that anyone who disagrees with you is “evil” has “evil intensions” or is “subhuman.” I’m sick of it. I’ve had to diagnose a few children with ASD and it is a devastating day for all involved.

Before that day ever comes, that child’s parents were talking with teachers, his/her peers’ parents, etc for months or years about concerns. They come to me and I have to send the child to a childhood developmental specialist for testing. From there, the family typically sees a social worker or equivalent. Then the family comes back and we take it all into account, follow – wait for it – evidence-based recommendations and guidelines, and then make a diagnosis. I have yet to deny one that is clearly proven by testing and never would. Neither would any other doctor I know. If we did? Simple-the parents take that material to another physician. Word would soon spread not to go to that doctor.

So tell me…where in that process is the doctor in cahoots with some fanciful cabal to cover up ASD on behalf of the “big scary vaccine agenda” going to skew things? I can think of about five places that would break down. Not to mention that malevolent physician would be simple to catch since he/she would be declining to diagnose. It would be the easiest paper trail in the world to audit. The developmental specialists might even report that person.

Last, and most importantly, all of that has to take place before the state will recognize the diagnosis and implement an ILP or similar. This was the case in all three states I’ve practiced. No parent of an ASD child will go without this because their child cannot be expected to function in a standard class without assistance. Even if the parents tried to avoid it, the teachers and administrator wouldn’t.

Where are all of these undiagnosed ASD kids? As before, how do you know that they are ASD? How do their parents educate them without assistance? How does this go unnoticed?

@ Medical Yeti,

"Before that day ever comes, that child’s parents were talking with teachers,
his/her peers’ parents, etc for months or years about concerns."

WTF, NO! Before “that day ever comes”; those kids have been ‘diagnosed’ as ASD by the schools. Did you think they just allow those poor kids to go without support because YOU haven’t seen them yet? Do you generally only see high functioning kids? Because if they waited on a medical diagnosis in the schools, they would be literally stepping over children lying on the floor in wet diapers for years. That’s not how it works. In fact, the CDC says that 30% of autistic kids getting support in schools do not have a diagnosis.

“30% of children who met the ADDM Network surveillance case criteria for ASD had not received a formal ASD diagnosis by 8 years of age, potentially limiting the services they receive.”

In fact, the only time that YOU seeing a child matters, is when a study seeks to determine how many vaccinated kids are autistic.

Federal funding started equipping public school districts to provide preschool starting at the age of 3; in 2002 (Colorado schools at least). Kids are EDUCATIONALLY diagnosed via early childhood intervention services before they ever see you. And many; will never see you. The CDC waits to “count” them as autistic until the age of 8, to make sure they haven’t missed a kid who wasn’t identified at age 3. You writing “F84.0” on the child’s chart is irrelevant to the schools. Your diagnosis is irrelevant to the CDC. It has to be, otherwise children with severe needs go unserved.

“CDC estimates that about 1 in 54 children has been identified with ASD (or 18.5 per 1,000 8-year-olds). These estimates from the ADDM Network are based on data collected from health and special education records of children living in 11 communities across the United States during 2016. Information was collected on children who were 8 years old because previous work has shown that, by this age, most children with ASD have been identified for services.”

Is it “nefarious” that the big data studies out of Denmark (& ALL the others) relied on a method that conveniently undercounts by up to 30%? You know what? I actually don’t think it is! I actually think the methodology is determined by medical scientists who believe counting kids with F84.0 is “the best way”. They don’t know autism. They don’t know how parents navigate the schools or the massive burden that autism places on the schools. They probably think they are doing it the right way but their studies are fundamentally flawed. They dropped 30% of autistic kids right through the cracks.

“Nefarious” Hviid used same criteria for unvaccinated and vaccinated. So if autism amongst vaccinated underestimated, autism amongst unvaccinated is, too.
Curious indeed that people in educational system has autism services without autism diagnosis.
I accidentally noticed that diapers crept in, again. You just love to tell everybody that your children are not potty trained, do you ?

I see that once again you’re going to pretend you weren’t caught lying (about Pakistan this time). Tell me, why keep making up nonsense? Do you think that if you just do it again and again, we’ll get tired of pointing out that you’re a liar?

I don’t give af what you believe. Especially you. You can only comprehend within the confines of what you are told. You have been told vaccine injury is imaginary & you can’t comprehend that the polio vaccine made hundreds of schoolchildren in Pakistan sick.

You therefore can’t understand why parents have become violent to vaccine workers. You believe your mainstream media outlets, instead of reaching out to actual people in Pakistan who have personal knowledge about the communities they live in. This is your loss. Can’t help you with that.

You listen Pakistani antivaxxers ? I do not them, but I know US ones. They always lie. Some may just give a false statement, but this is a good bas it gets

This article is great because it has a good graph which shows the number of “wild-type” polio cases and VACCINE-CAUSED polio cases for 2019 and 2020…….

Notice that in Africa there are no “wild-type” polio cases, only vaccine-derived polio cases.

Afghanistan and Pakistan do have “wild-type” polio cases, but vaccine -derived polio cases are raising. In Pakistan they went from 2 in 2019, to 52 in 2020.

But the article is excellent for getting a good grasp of the oral vs injected polio vaccine problem. I highly recommend reading it.

When it comes to vaccines, the attitude that all vaccines are good, is a LIE. Making anyone who says so a spreader of falsehoods.


Read more carefully.

I wrote they did multiple gene analysis on my son who has Autism, and they did not find any genes in his analysis which were common in people with Autism.

There is a gene they found in inherited Autism…..

However, no one in our family has this gene, and neither does my son.

There are six other genes that are associated with Autism, but not everyone who has any of these genes, has Autism. Many people of not.

Associated is not causation.

CK: “actual people in Pakistan who have personal knowledge about the communities the live in.”

Like the ones who spread false rumors about polio vaccine injury?

From a 2019 Washington Post story:

“On April 22, vaccinators spent the morning at a school in Mashokhel, a few miles outside Peshawar, the capital of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province. Soon after they left, school administrators reported that dozens of students were vomiting and fainting. Among local residents, long-
suppressed suspicions burst into a frenzy. An angry mob attacked the school and burned down the local health clinic.”

“People were pelting my house with stones,” said Arshad Khan, 35, a longtime local health-care worker. He said that even during the years when Islamist militants were attacking vaccination teams, he stayed on the job. “There is nothing wrong with the drops,” he said, “but this misunderstanding, these fake reports, have hurt our efforts all over the country.”

“As the news circulated that day via social media and cellphones, frightened parents rushed 40,000 children to hospitals in Peshawar. Health officials later reported that almost all were found healthy and sent home, but by then it was too late to contain the panic. Across the country, hundreds of thousands of parents refused to let their children receive the drops, and the vaccination drive was suspended.”

“Police arrested 16 people in connection with an alleged plot to sabotage the polio campaign, including several staff members at the school, and pernicious messages and videos were posted online that added to the crisis. One showed a man, who was later arrested, instructing schoolboys to lie down on hospital cots and pretend to be sick. Another showed an unidentified man denouncing polio vaccinators as pimps and prostitutes working for the United States.”

A lot of the hate and misinformation leading to killing of vaccine workers and preventable disease outbreaks is reportedly being spread on Facebook, which has a large presence in Pakistan.

More spiritual allies of Christine.

Someone who was really concerned about children’s health in Pakistan would take note of the 20,000 annual measles deaths there, or be appalled by the fact that tetanus is the second leading cause of infant death. Or that children under 5 account for 50% of annual mortality.

She likes to claim she’s the one who cares about others (not us), but she clearly only cares to the extant it validates her journey down a bottomless antivaccine rabbit hole. When we stated that it’s clear that she needs better support services for her son, so that she doesn’t have to worry about things like a metldown preventing her from buying her family food, she wasn’t interested in that kind of thing, because it doesn’t validate her views. Makes me sad for her son.

To understand how dangerous the oral polio vaccine is, read this……

Perhaps you all need to understand that all vaccines are not good nor are all vaccines safe.

Choosing to take only the vaccinations one deems safe does not make a person an “anti-vaxxer”. It makes one a wise consumer. I would never take an oral polio vaccine nor give it to my child, on the other hand the inactivated polio vaccine is one I would likely take.

@ Aelxa

I would never take an oral polio vaccine nor give it to my child, on the other hand the inactivated polio vaccine is one I would likely take.

Then give thanks you live in a Western society, in a state of civil peace, and don’t have to concern yourself with supply logistics.
Not everybody has that privilege.

Also, what you see as a curse of the oral polio vaccine shedding? It’s also a benediction when trying a mass vaccination program in places where a good number of people are hiding or keep hidden.
It means that any vaccinated people will transmit some mild strain of polio to people around them. Including, hopefully, some of the people the healthcare workers could not reach.
Yes, in a few cases, it will have a tragic effect.
But in the long run? It will save lives. Because the wild strain is worse. Wild polio will be eradicated much sooner.
That is, if the CIA and other groups of goons and murderous zealots would just let people working.

in places where a good number of people are hiding or keep hidden.

It means that any vaccinated people will transmit some mild strain of polio to people around them.


This does not sit well with me at all. It’s akin to the ‘conspiracy theories’ of mosquitoes for involuntary vaccination.

Immuno compromized people??

** this would also lead to a Trumpian nightmare scenario where some people are criminals for taking precautions/not being patriotic by avoiding getting disease.


Wow, you think virus shedding from oral live polio vaccine is a “benediction”?

Are you nuts? Do you know how many people become permanently paralyzed from catching polio that way?

And the live virus is not worse if it is the vaccine derived virus that paralyzes you.

God, it is amazing how those who approve of all vaccines no matter the side-effects are so complacent. I guess if is not your kid or family who winds up paralyzed, it is then ok. They are just poor Third World residents anyway.

People like you make me sick. If these outcomes are ok, then you and your family should only be given oral live vaccines.

Except they would never do it here in the US, since too many kids and family members would come down with Poliomyelitis. That no longer happens here, since they switched it to strictly inactivated polio vaccine injections only in the US.

As for “a few tragic cases”, the vaccine polio cases totally outnumber the wild polio cases, no wild polio cases even exist in Africa. Try reading the links, the big graph of world polio cases tells the real story about polio.


Have you not noticed that if you wear a facemasks you are now a radical leftist communist and should be shot as being anti-american?

One guy told me it was obvious I was not a Christian who attended church….. because I insisted on wearing a facemash plus a clear plastic face shield while shopping at my local grocery store.

Those people who will not wear masks are deluded and been mind-sucked by trump.

“Have you not noticed that if you wear a facemasks you are now a radical leftist communist and should be shot as being anti-american?”

I gotta go vote. I’m in deep, deep red state and fear standing in line with my HEPA OREC bag mask. I have a hand-held for when they ask me to take it off for identification. I’m ascared to go vote. But, Imma goin’.


These vaccine-caused polio outbreaks appear to be happening because they are using an outdated oral vaccine that was supposed to be stopped being used in 2016…….

The cheap live virus polo vaccines are keeping polio live as a dangerous disease. The whole thing is a stupid disaster caused by stupid cheap-minded vaccination programs.

In wonder there is rumors of the polo vaccine causing disease… does!

Cheap, unsafe vaccines are a disaster and only spread disease, they do not help.

The whole thing is a stupid disaster caused by stupid cheap-minded vaccination programs.

Easily fixed. Give the vaccination programs more money.


The inactivated injected polio vaccine has few side-effects. Side-effects with the oral vaccine are numerous and very common……

Side-effects like headache in 22.4% of patients, abdominal pain in 17.2%, fever in 11.7%, and diarrhea in 9.9%.

Gee, I wonder why parents were freaking out and taking their children to hospitals. The vaccine was supposed to protect them from disease, not make them sick.

And the patient needs to get the drops twice in order for the vaccination to be effective. How many children would get a second dose if they got so sick from the first dose?

The whole live polio vaccine program should be scrapped and replaced by the single inactivated polio vaccine injection otherwise polio will continue to be active in the World.

Oh, dear me, I must be an anti-vaxxer because I insist on safe vaccines, so you can ignore all this I have written. It must be a lie, right?

Alexa, do you know why the oral polio vaccine is still used in low-resource countries, despite its known flaws?

No needles: no risk of spreading BBPs. (Blood borne pathogens)
Easier to transport.

I have a coworker who got polio from the oral vaccine. He still wears a brace. He is very, very pro vaccine.


And when your co-worker got the polio vaccine there was an inactivated vaccine in use since 1955, so they got polio due to government cheapness.

The US switched to using only inactivated polio vaccine in 2020, too many kids were having to have money paid out to them, from getting polio from the oral vaccine.

On top of it people who recover from polio also have to deal with post-polio syndrome decades after the initial infection……

Yes, I too know people who got polio from the live oral vaccine. Like me tell you, having the deal with the neurological problems that come with Post Polio Syndrome can be like getting polio all over again.

This is why I am for safer vaccines and not for the use of any old vaccine they decide to make. If everyone got the inactivated polio vaccine since 1955, your Co-worker would not have had polio. I wonder if they even know that an inactivated polio vaccine was available, and that they got polio because the live oral polio vaccine was some much cheaper. You get what you pay for, and in this case they got polio.

I have nothing against the inactivated polio vaccine, the live oral polio vaccine should be outlawed. It causes polio, all of the polio outbreaks in Africa are caused by the live oral polio vaccine.

Your excuse, about blood borne pathogenes, is just that, an excuse for using a dangerous live oral vaccine that is keeping polio alive in Africa and the MiddleEast.

The inactivated polio vaccine is available in single use syringes, spending a little more to deliver a vaccine that is the safest possible and would finally eliminate polio worldwide is the only logical plan.

Parents who are informed that the oral polio vaccine is able to give their children the disease, will avoid vaccinating their children with it.

And right now the polio spreading in Africa is a strain that is not even in the oral live polio vaccines anymore, the oral live polio vaccines are spreading new lab-made strains. And then they stop vaccinating for that lab strain which is now free in the African environment.

How stupid can they be? Apparently, extremely stupid.

My coworker who got polio from the oral polio vaccine did not grow up in the US. Everyone in his country got the oral. It is not his fault that he was born in a developing country. And given that he is a talented immunologist I am sure that he is completely aware of why he got polio.

Polio is eradicated in the Middle East. I believe you are thinking of Central Asia.

Here’s an organization that is working hard for polio eradication. Perhaps you will learn more from them:


Neither Afghanistan or Pakistan are located in Central Asia…..

Weirdly, Iran is in the Middle East, yet Afghanistan and Pakistan are considered as being in Asia along with India, and extending to the Philippines and Mongolia.

I do not think either Afghanistan or Pakistan consider themselves as being “Asians”

If you look at the tectonic plates India is on a plate isolated from the Eurasian plate which extends from Britain to the Philippines, with the Philippines existing on a plate by itself.

One of these days India may move away from Asia. How do we wind up giving China influence on the biggest chunk of the World by calling it “Asia”????

I know enough to know Polio would be completely eradicated if the inactivated polio vaccine was used, and the oral live polio vaccine use eliminated. vaccine.

Sometimes when you try to save pennies, you wind up having to spend many dollars to fix your mistake.

Using the live oral vaccine is just extending the existance of polio, the only way to eliminate it means doubling down and paying the extra dollar for the inactivated vaccine. Screwing around with the live oral vaccine is purely stupidity.

Why don’t you ask your coworker about how they feel regarding the live polio vaccine vs inactivated polio vaccine, instead of assuming you know their thoughts on the matter. Everyone I know here in the US who got polio from the oral vaccine got mad when they found out a safe inactivated vaccine was available since 1955, and they did not get it because it was a bit more expensive.

Apparently Aelxa overlooked the part where it turned out that virtually all the kids hospitalized in Pakistan after that round of polio vaccination were found to be in good health.

Vomiting and fainting in this context are classic signs of mass hysteria. It probably didn’t help that adults with antivaccine agendas were doing their best to exacerbate the situation.

This sort of thing has happened before on a number of occasions.

“In September 1998, more than 800 young people in Jordan believed they had suffered from the side-effects of tetanus-diphtheria toxoid vaccine administered at school; 122 of them were admitted to hospital. For the vast majority, their symptoms did not result from the vaccine but arose from mass psychogenic illness. The role played by the media, the children’s parents, and the medical profession in the escalation of this mass reaction appeared, at first sight, to be unusual and even unique to the circumstances in Jordan at the time. A review of the literature showed, however, that this mass reaction was similar in many ways to previous outbreaks, even though the underlying causes varied. There are about 200 published accounts of mass responses to situations involving suspected poisoning or other events. Because such mass reactions are relatively rare and the triggers so diverse, individuals faced with responding to them are unlikely to have prior experience in how to handle them and are unlikely to take bold steps to prevent their escalation. Indeed they may be unaware that such events have been recorded before. The lessons learned from this incident in Jordan may help other immunization programme managers to handle crisis situations elsewhere.”

Apparently Bacon is overlooking the fact that the live oral polio vaccine is keeping polio alive as a contagious disease, and that all the polio outbreaks in Africa are from vaccine derived polio variants, and the outbreaks in Pakistan and Afghanistan are now starting to be mostly the vaccine derived polio variants.

Gee, Bacon, Aelxa can read just as well as everyone else. And side-effects that are distressing are very common with the oral polio vaccines they are using. To claim it is all made up, is an obvious lie, when the rates of side-effects are over 25%. Just the side-effect of abdominal pain is almost 25%.

They can try to downplay the problems with the oral vaccines, but they are directly causing polio outbreaks.

They know the oral live-polio vaccines can cause polio in the vaccinated and in others who are in close contact with newly vaccinated, or even just the feces of the newly vaccinated. Think dirty diapers and washing clothes in streams where people are also getting water to drink. Feces is even used to make stucco covering walls in countries like Pakistan.

They do not have disposable diapers, treated city water, and things we take for granted in First World Nations.Hence, the problem in Africa, Afghanistan and Pakistan with oral polio vaccine created polio outbreaks.

Focusing on the offical news handouts about “hysteria” over vaccinations, is a deflection to take attention away from the real problem…….

Crappy oral live polio vaccines which are causing most of the polio outbreaks in the World.

Well, it is one way to keep the polio problem going, thus keeping polio vaccine manufacturers in business.

“Feces is even used to make stucco”

Neato. I’ll take 400 lbs of baby shit grellow, please.

Feces are also used by antivaxers to manufacture misleading and inaccurate posts.

A good example of “deflection” is failing to acknowledge that the mass hospitalizations in Pakistan after polio vaccine administration were not due to the vaccine, and attempting to change the subject.

Someone who was actually concerned about sick children in Third World settings would rejoice at the fact that instead of 350,000 cases of polio worldwide as recently as 1988 and 75,000 cases of paralytic polio in Africa in 1996, wild-type polio has now been eradicated throughout the continent thanks to vaccination. There have been 177 cases of vaccine-derived polio in Africa in 2020, an obvious source of concern, but one for which a solution is in sight. From the CDC:

“Circulating vaccine-derived polioviruses (cVDPVs) can emerge in areas with low poliovirus immunity (in other words, lack of sufficient immunization) and cause outbreaks* of paralytic polio (1–5). Among the three types of wild poliovirus, type 2 was declared eradicated in 2015 (1,2). The use of trivalent oral poliovirus vaccine (tOPV; types 1, 2, and 3 Sabin strains) ceased in April 2016 via a 1-month–long, global synchronized switch to bivalent OPV (bOPV; types 1 and 3 Sabin strains) in immunization activities (1–4). Monovalent type 2 OPV (mOPV2; type 2 Sabin strain) is available for cVDPV type 2 (cVDPV2) outbreak response immunization (1–5). The number and geographic breadth of post-switch cVDPV2 outbreaks have exceeded forecasts that trended toward zero outbreaks 4 years after the switch and assumed rapid and effective control of any that occurred (4). New cVDPV2 outbreaks have been seeded by mOPV2 use, by both suboptimal mOPV2 coverage within response zones and recently mOPV2-vaccinated children or contacts traveling outside of response zones, where children born after the global switch are fully susceptible to poliovirus type 2 transmission (2–4). In addition, new emergences can develop by inadvertent exposure to Sabin OPV2-containing vaccine (i.e., residual response mOPV2 or tOPV) (4). This report updates the January 2018–June 2019 report with information on global cVDPV outbreaks during July 2019–February 2020 (as of March 25, 2020)† (2). Among 33 cVDPV outbreaks reported during July 2019–February 2020, 31 (94%) were cVDPV2; 18 (58%) of these followed new emergences. In mid-2020, the Global Polio Eradication Initiative (GPEI) plans to introduce a genetically stabilized, novel OPV type 2 (nOPV2) that has a lower risk for generating VDPV2 than does Sabin mOPV2; if nOPV2 is successful in limiting new VDPV2 emergences, GPEI foresees the replacement of Sabin mOPV2 with nOPV2 for cVDPV2 outbreak responses during 2021 (2,4,6).

The plan is to eventually switch over to an inactivated polio vaccine post-eradication. Cost and logistics are some of the reasons OPV use has continued in poor countries – not some sinister desire to enrich vaccine makers.

If only Aelxa could be persuaded to stop flinging feces, we’d have a healthier discussion. 🙂

Gee Bacon, I guess you failed to notice test the type 2 that they said was eliminated and is no longer in the oral live polio vaccine, is the strain that is now breaking out in Africa.

And feces is important, because these poorer nations do not have the wastewater treatment plants we have in the US or even septic systems in most areas. Never mind public toilets.

Instead, people relieve themselves on the side of the road, in fields or wherever. The feces dries up and becomes dust borne in the wind. And since the polio virus can spread via feces…..polio keeps spreading and infecting people in these areas.

Living in the US , you think feces is a joke but it is a huge cause of the spread of disease in poorer countries.

I remember going out to the hotel toilet, which was located in the courtyard behind a hotel. The toilet was two stones you put your feet on with an open hole between them. The smell was something else. But that was a sophisticated compared to otherplaces, many which only had a field behind the “hotel”.

In India they have had a government program for decades trying to get people to build and use public toilets, but people still just go anywhere they want, and disease keeps spreading.

Talking about feces is not a joke. It is a serious cause of disease.

There are 7 Billion people in the World and 1.1 Billion of them do not use a toilet…..

That means 1 in seven people have no safe sanitary facilities. You guys make jokes about giving the gift of an indoor toilet, this not a joking situation.

Even in the US the farmworkers wind up going in the fields, a farm might have a single Port-a-Potty at the edge of a huge field a mile long. Do you think they are going to hike a mile to go relieve themselves, when their pay is based on how much they harvest.

Would you hike a mile from your home to use a toilet. My house has two toilets, but 1 in seven humans have no toilets available.

Disease spread is mostly a matter of having sanitary facilities and clean water to drink and wash with. Vaccines do not make up for this lack.

But you live in a rich country and have no idea what it is like for a woman to hike two or three miles with empty water container, to fill it with dirty stream water and then have to carry the filled container home so the family will have water to drink for that say. Then repeat this procedure every day of your life.

Now think if you then want to hike another mile one way to use a public toilet. And you could be attacked walking to that toilet. Nope, the field next door looks fine. And thus disease continues to freely spread.

If you read the above link, polio is spread via the oral-fecal mode. This means people get it from water that has fecal matter in it, from people going to relieve themselves near or in streams. In some cases it is from raw sewerage being discharged into streams.

Only 25% of people who contract polio have any symptoms, and it can take ten days before there are symptoms, so there can be polio spreading far before the first “sick ” person is actually seen.

So feces is an important topic if you want to eliminate a disease. It is not a joke.


Switch over to inactivated vaccine “post eradication”?

When the live oral polio vaccines keep polio alive now do there is no eradication?

What you wrote is completely illogical, and uninformed.


Why would anyone vaccinate for a disease that no longer existed? If polio was eradicated, then no more vaccinations would be given for polio.

Just like for smallpox, no more disease, no more vaccinating for small pox. No polio would mean no more vaccinating for polio. There would be no switching over to an inactivated vaccine.

Sorry – but most of the comments, are like Wankers !! Particularly negative pseudo criticism targetting of Antivaxxers & those who have checked out & concluded that the 9/11 Twin Towers collapse, was a clear Neocon – Israeli False Flag DisInfo Operation, to start the Wars of the PNAC..look that up (!!).

Check out all the Deep Investigations of 9/11 by top investigators, including structural engineer & architects.. that you so conveniently Ignore.

Their YouTube videos bring these out in stark detail

Wankers !! Weaponised Wankers !!
Orac- Gorski included !

Cheers.. otherwise !!

First we have QAnon with vaccines, now Neocons…..

All this takes legitimacy from real engineering investigations, like the University of Alaska Engineering Dept testing out the NIST claims of the reasons for the collapses.

Stuff like this just makes everyone believe any valid critical analysis is just more quackery.

Can we leave the blue moon guesses as to who did what, where, and for why….where they truly belong? In the imagination.

I mean QAnon, that appears to be more radical rightwing bs, it is on 8chan, now called 8kun, which is hosted by a company that supports only 8kun and a neo-Nazi stormtrooper group. Two groups which seem to be perfect for one another….

You seems not to understand that terrorist are not only mass murderers, but really stupid. They dig blood from their nose, as saying goes. Read the original NIST report and comment it, not various internet posts.

Not true. My health and your health and everyone’s health is impacted by the health of others in society. Public health matters. Even on a strictly selfish basis, we should want a robust public health infrastructure. The pandemic has certainly revealed what happens when we don’t have one.

Public health has always been a part of government’s job, to my knowledge. For example, protecting the cleanliness of available water sources, preventing air and water pollutions, or quarantine, have a very long history.

Denying the existence or importance of public health is simply ignoring reality.

And if this person lives in any developed country, this person is enjoying whatever good health he, they or she has, in part, because of efforts for clear water, clean air, food safety and disease prevention by his, hers, or their government.

@Dorit, perhaps they’d like it if we went back to the 1536 style of public health and just boarded up people’s homes with them inside.

Then you’re totally cool with your water being full of raw sewage and industrial waste? Even after you paid good money for it?

And you’re totally fine with your food being full of bacteria, parasites, fungi, plaster, arsenic, and every preservative know to humanity, including formaldehyde, without any indication on the label?

You don’t want any health screenings at your ports, something that’s been standard practice (if not always effectively done) for centuries?

You want killing fogs?

All of these things are part of public health. You just take them for granted.

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