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Vaccines cause female infertility: Another antivax lie resurrected and repackaged for COVID-19

Antivaxxers have been claiming that vaccines cause female infertility for as long as I can remember. So it’s not surprising that they are now claiming that COVID-19 vaccines will make women infertile. Their assertion is based on a highly speculative and incredibly unlikely immunologic mechanism. Same as it ever was.

One of the most common false claims made by the antivaccine movement is that a vaccine (or vaccines in general) somehow result in female infertility. Sure, antivaxxers will sometimes promote the idea that vaccines cause sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) or simply kill older children, but not nearly as often as they like to spread the persistent myth that vaccines somehow “sterilize” females. Examples abound and can be found around the world, for example, from the conspiracy theory promoted by Catholic bishops in Kenya that the tetanus vaccine is “racist population control” and that the false claim in Africa and the Philippines (among other places) that the polio vaccine can impair female fertility, while in some Muslim countries the campaign to eradicate polio has long been plagued by conspiracy theories that claim that the polio vaccine is laced with anti-fertility chemicals that would render their girls sterile before they even became women (and/or can also infect them with HIV) as part of a plot to depopulate the developing world. (Indeed, portraying vaccines as “eugenics” is a popular antivaccine trope.) Of course, the vaccine most commonly falsely cited by antivaxxers as causing female infertility is the HPV vaccine, particularly Gardasil, which is blamed without evidence for premature ovarian failure (now more commonly known as primary ovarian insufficiency), usually based on some hand waving misunderstanding of immunology attributing this “effect” to some vaguely defined autoimmune phenomenon. This claim that a specific vaccine (or vaccines) can cause infertility is what I like to refer to as a “slasher” lie, because, like the killers in 1980s slasher movies, who appear to have been finally killed at the end of one installment, these lies always manage to somehow survive to kill more teenagers in the next movie.

So it should come as no surprise that, with the rollout of the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine against COVID-19 under an FDA emergency use authorization (EUA), with the vaccine by Moderna very likely to follow very soon in distribution, this old slasher lie has found new life, this time in the form of the claim that these two vaccines cause—surprise! surprise!—female infertility! Like the HPV vaccine before, it even has an alleged former pharmaceutical company employee at a high level fear mongering about the vaccine. (More on the details of that in a moment.) Before I go on to discuss this new bit of antivaccine disinformation and the conspiracy theory associated with it, let me just make a quick observation about how the antivaccine movement treats the genders differently. Notice how the lies about vaccines somehow causing infertility are basically always lies claiming that they cause female infertility. I can’t recall even a single antivaccine claim that vaccines impair male fertility. This is despite experimental vaccines existing for both female and male contraception (the former relying on beta-HCG like an experimental tetanus vaccine, the latter targeting sperm). I’m guessing claims about male infertility have probably been made, but, if so, they are far surpassed in number, imagination, and intensity by the claims that this vaccine or that somehow “sterilizes” females. That antivaxxers like to portray the HPV vaccine as the “promiscuity vaccine” and their obsession with vaccines supposedly rendering their women infertile, leads me to the conclusion that there is a lot of misogyny behind the antivaccine movement.

Dubious experts demand a stop to a clinical trial on the basis of nonsense

Let’s get back to the conspiracy theory that the new COVID-19 mRNA-based vaccines will cause female infertility. I guess it’s just one small step from using a total misunderstanding of the totality of molecular biology to claim that such vaccines will “reprogram your DNA” to finding a dubious “mechanism” by which they will render women infertile, and certainly antivaxxers have taken that step, as shown by this recent article entitled “Head of Pfizer Research: Covid Vaccine is Female Sterilization“. Interestingly, the actual content of the article is not nearly as definitive as the clickbait headline, but does report how two men have spread the claim that the new COVID-19 vaccines might cause female infertility. Seeing that article and various others making the same claim as the Pfizer vaccine is being loaded into trucks from the Pfizer plant in my home state of Michigan and being transported all around the country, I thought it a good time to examine this dangerous new form of an old antivaccine trope.

First, let’s look at a little history and comparison. Remember how the demonization of Gardasil used to cite an OB-GYN named Diane Harper, who was frequently represented as running the clinical trials of Gardasil used to obtain FDA approval when, as far as I was ever able to glean, all she did was to serve as principal investigator at one of the sites (site PI) where patients were being enrolled in the study? (She also said that she supports HPV vaccination.) Here, the conspiracy theory goes beyond that. Whereas Harper merely made comments that antivaxxers could interpret as being critical of the efficacy and safety of HPV vaccination, here the scientist is actually spearheading the conspiracy theory. I’m referring to Dr. Michael Yeadon, who is portrayed as the former head of respiratory research at Pfizer, and is working with a German doctor named Wolfgang Wodarg. Less than two weeks ago the two filed a motion for administrative and regulatory action to the European Medicines Agency (EMA), the EU agency responsible for EU-wide drug approval, warning that the vaccine can attack placenta cells, causing female infertility. Interestingly, the link to the PDF of the letter in the original article no longer works, but someone saved an incomplete version of the letter here and I found the complete 43-page letter here.

The letter doesn’t ask the EMA to stop the phase 3 trials of BNT162, the name for BioNTech’s mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccine developed with Pfizer just because it might cause infertility in females. There are a whole panoply of claims in the letter, some of which we’ve dealt with before. I won’t discuss them all, but I will briefly discuss Yeadon and Wodarg’s claim that the number of cycles for diagnosis of COVID-19 by PCR from nasal swab samples was set too high and therefore too sensitive. Because of the false positives, Yeadon and Wodarg claim that Sanger sequencing must be used to verify all the sequences. Sanger sequencing, for those not familiar with it, is an old method of sequencing DNA. In brief, Sanger sequencing was developed in 1977 by two-time Nobel Laureate Frederick Sanger and his colleagues. My first reaction upon reading the blog posts describing this particular demand was “WTF?” followed by: I know Sanger sequencing. I did Sanger sequencing when I was in graduate school back in the 1990s. My wife’s job when she worked at a biotech company back in the early 1990s was Sanger sequencing. It’s laborious and time consuming and requires a lot of starting material compared to PCR. (Does anyone remember how hard it was to pour sequencing gels?)

Then I got out of my time warp and realized that, of course, technology has marched on since the 1990s and Sanger sequencing can now be used in conjunction with various DNA sequencing machine technologies. Even so, what Yeadon and Wodarg propose is unnecessary and impractical:

All RT-qPCR-positive test results used to categorize patient as “COVID-19 cases” in the trials and used to qualify the trial’s endpoints should be verified by Sanger sequencing to confirm that the tested samples in fact contain a unique SARS-CoV-2 genomic RNA. Congruent with FDA and EMA requirements for a confirmed diagnosis of human papillomavirus (HPV) using PCR, the sequencing electropherogram must show a minimum of 100 contiguous bases matching the reference sequence with an Expected Value (E Value) <10-30 for the specific SARS-CoV-2 gene sequence based on a BLAST search of the GenBank database (aka NCBI Nucleotide database).

Basically, this, like the “casedemic” claim, is a strategy to cast doubt on the accuracy and utility of reverse transcriptase real-time PCR to diagnose COVID-19 infection. The point is, once you’ve optimized the PCR conditions and demonstrated again and again that the PCR product you are getting is, in fact, the nucleotide sequence your PCR primers were intended to target, it is wasteful and unnecessary to demonstrate that for each and every sample. Indeed, in general, such validation is only performed when there is reason to doubt that the PCR reaction is working correctly, as when the PCR product is the wrong size, for instance. I thus realized that the point of this particular demand was nothing more than to cast doubt on PCR diagnosis of COVID-19 and to add a lot of unnecessary time and expense to the diagnostic testing end of the clinical trial, particularly when one of the endpoints is also symptomatic disease.

I also can’t help but note, to conclude this section, that one of the Exhibits that Yeadon and Wodarg cites is written by Sin Hang Lee. Regular readers of this blog might remember that Lee is a pathologist who made a name for himself nearly a decade ago when he was hired by the antivaccine group SANE Vax to use ultra-sensitive nested PCR to find—gasp!—HPV DNA in Gardasil, a meaningless finding that antivaccine groups ran with, producing dubious claims of “microcompetition” by the DNA to cause autoimmune disease, including primary ovarian insufficiency, and even death, as when Dr. Lee teamed up with antivaccine “scientist” Christopher Shaw and used highly dubious PCR methodology to try to convince an inquest in New Zealand that DNA fragments from Gardasil had caused a young woman’s death. Truly, antivaccine cranks never go away. They just keep showing up in different forums arguing different nonsense.

Oh, no! The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is coming for our women!

Interestingly, the claim that the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine could potentially cause infertility is actually a small part of the overall petition, which spends far more verbiage on PCR, Sanger sequencing, and the not-unreasonable but thus far not observed concern about antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE) due to a vaccine, which has been a problem in the development of vaccines against Dengue Virus, Ebola Virus, HIV, RSV, and the family of coronaviruses. Basically, ADE is a phenomenon where a subject who has antibodies to a disease can mount a hyperactive immune response to it if challenged again. ADE has been observed in animal models of coronavirus vaccines in the past, for example, against SARS, but thus far not observed in humans in trials of vaccines directed against the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19. Given the number of subjects thus far vaccinated, if ADE were a problem we’d expect to have seen it by now.

Let’s get to the key claim made by Yeadon and Wodarg regarding the COVID-19 vaccine and female infertility, as described in the original blog post that went viral and started the social media spread of this particular claim:

The vaccinations are expected to produce antibodies against spike proteins of SARS-CoV-2. However, spike proteins also contain syncytin-homologous proteins, which are essential for the formation of the placenta in mammals such as humans. It must be absolutely ruled out that a vaccine against SARS-CoV-2 could trigger an immune reaction against syncytin-1, as otherwise infertility of indefinite duration could result in vaccinated women.

From the petition itself:

Several vaccine candidates are expected to induce the formation of humoral antibodies against spike proteins of SARS-CoV-2. Syncytin-1 (see Gallaher, B., “Response to nCoV2019 Against Backdrop of Endogenous Retroviruses” – http://virological.org/t/response-to-ncov2019- against-backdrop-of-endogenous-retroviruses/396), which is derived from human endogenous retroviruses (HERV) and is responsible for the development of a placenta in mammals and humans and is therefore an essential prerequisite for a successful pregnancy, is also found in homologous form in the spike proteins of SARS viruses. There is no indication whether antibodies against spike proteins of SARS viruses would also act like anti-Syncytin-1 antibodies. However, if this were to be the case this would then also prevent the formation of a placenta which would result in vaccinated women essentially becoming infertile. To my knowledge, Pfizer/BioNTech has yet to release any samples of written materials provided to patients, so it is unclear what, if any, information regarding (potential) fertility-specific risks caused by antibodies is included.

According to section 10.4.2 of the Pfizer/BioNTech trial protocol, a woman of childbearing potential (WOCBP) is eligible to participate if she is not pregnant or breastfeeding, and is using an acceptable contraceptive method as described in the trial protocol during the intervention period (for a minimum of 28 days after the last dose of study intervention).

This means that it could take a relatively long time before a noticeable number of cases of postvaccination infertility could be observed.

Perhaps the most convincing counterargument to this is simple, but I will go beyond that to go into the weeds a bit. First, however, the simple counterargument:

Humans do have a protein called syncytin-1, which is critical in developing the placenta during pregnancy, Stockwell said in an email. “Theoretically, an immune response against this protein could cause increased risk of a failed pregnancy.”

But if the claims in the blog post were accurate, that would mean that pregnant women who catch COVID-19 would also become infertile, he said. No increased infertility or pregnancy loss has been observed in women with COVID-19.

Exactly. But what about the claim that syncytin-1 is so similar to the COVID-19 spike protein that a vaccine using the spike protein to provoke an immune response against SARS-CoV-2 would risk cross reacting with syncytin-1? Just as I was gearing up to do a bunch of BLAST searches against the Genbank database, as I did so many months ago when James Lyons-Weiler was making claims that SARS-CoV-2 (then called 2019-nCoV, so long ago was it) was created in a lab, I came across an excellent post by Edward Nirenberg, where, in order to answer the question of how much the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein resembles syncytin-1, he did the same BLAST searches I was gearing up to do. Basically, being the sometimes-lazy guy that I am, I thought: Why should I reinvent the wheel? I’ll just cite him instead! First, I’ll note that he also provided an excellent description of what syncytins are:

Did you know that the reason that eutherians (placental mammals) have a placenta is because of several retrovirus infections? They gave us proteins called syncytins, which form a structure called a syncytium or polykaryon (literally “many kernels,” where kernel is an old word for “nucleus”) if you’re fancy… syncytium is essentially one giant cell that contains the nuclei of many cells. Your muscle cells are syncytia (that’s the plural for syncytium), for example, and syncytia are common cytopathic effects one can observe when cell cultures are infected with some viruses. Genetic studies of mice in which syncytins are knocked out (mutations are introduced so that no functional protein is generated) show that syncytins are critical for the formation of a placenta, and in their absence it fails to form. In humans, there are two proteins responsible for this: syncytin-1 (present in every layer of the trophoblast, the outer layer of cells in the blastocyst, a very early point in the development of a mammal appearing between days 5 and 9) and syncytin-2 (found in cytotrophoblast cells). The placenta is required for pregnancy, and thus tampering with syncytins can result in infertility.

Nirenberg, like Stockwell quoted above, also notes that there is no evidence that COVID-19 infection predisposes to early pregnancy loss, and he even cites the peer-reviewed literature. Read more if you’re interested in that aspect. Expected results aside, it’s a simple matter to take the amino acid sequence of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein and use the Basic Local Alignment Search Tool (BLAST) to compare it to the proteins encoded by the human genome. Nirenberg did just that, and found that “no human sequences align, but there is exceptional homology with many other SARS-CoV-2 isolates”.

Amusingly, Nirenberg also notes that there is actually a nine amino acid sequence “with 66% sequence identity between syncytin-1 and SARS-CoV-2 spike, which somehow the author of this claim ignored, even though this would represent a (still untenable but nonetheless) greater risk for autoimmune disease than the short stretch of sequences present there,” further twisting the knife by noting that he mentions “this to point out the competence of the individual behind the claim only”. I do so love pointing out something a crank missed as evidence for his incompetence, and that’s what Nirenberg did.

My enjoyment aside, such a small stretch of sequence homology (similarity) tends to be missed on BLAST because it “does not represent a significant homology, and similarly, it’s not going to be a concern for your immune system.” Bending over backwards to be fair, Nirenberg further goes on to mention in an addendum that, yes, it’s possible that how proteins fold might represent a means of even small bits of the protein being similar enough to provoke a B-cell immune response through molecular mimicry, but then shoots that claim down:

BLAST does not allow for considerations of how proteins fold, and thus cannot model B cell epitopes effectively. A rigorous approach to the question of whether or not molecular mimicry were possible here is actually a fairly advanced bioinformatics project that might merit a publication because one would have to be able to model how the proteins folded in space to see if conformational epitopes were shared (in the case of B cells), where the endogenous antigen presentation machinery is likely to make cuts in processing the spike protein antigen, determine which epitopes would be immunodominant, compare this to known HLA alleles to see if there are specific binding clefts that fit putatively cross-reactive sequences very well to see if a genetic susceptibility exists (assuming a cross-reactive sequence is identified in the first place), and then you would eventually need in vivo validation that this is legitimate (but that comes after all the very heavy bioinformatics work).

So, why did I go with a BLAST search, knowing these deficiencies? Was I being willfully dishonest? Well, no. BLAST will miss very short identities, like the 8-12 amino acids needed to share a T cell epitope. However, if BLAST did identify a significant sequence identity, that could be cause for concern, it would be a good indicator for further investigation, and thus I felt it was a reasonable shortcut rather than undertaking the complex bioinformatics project I described above, taken together with the available epidemiologic data. I will add though that if a competent bioinformatician wants to undertake the previously aforementioned project, I would be happy to update this post with their findings and credit them fully. The presence of a shared (putative- as it’s not known that this sequence could even end up being presented by antigen-presentation machinery without much more complex analysis) T cell epitope alone does not allow for autoimmune disease- a litany of other conditions must be fulfilled before this can be seriously considered (we still have an extensive suite of immunologic tolerance mechanisms).

He further cites this excellent Twitter thread in which an immunologist named Andrew Croxford does an exercise in which he takes the peptide sequence of the spike protein and aligns it with random human protein sequences.

He puts a bow on the whole thread by pointing out the inconsistency in Yeadon and Wodarg’s “hypothesis” (if you can call it that):

Basically, the stretch of amino acid similarity between the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 and syncytin-1 are too short to be of any immunologic consequence. Moreover:

To summarize, I quote Edward Nirenberg’s “short version”:

Someone has claimed that the COVID-19 vaccines are going to cause infertility because of a shared amino acid sequence in the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 and a placental protein, which will make the immune system attack both as it can’t tell the difference. The truth? This sequence is too short for the immune system to meaningfully confuse it with placental proteins. It’s sort of like saying that you are going to be confused with a criminal because you wear a commonly sold red bracelet that was also found on the criminal. It’s not realistic. If this were true, we would also expect COVID-19 to cause early pregnancy loss a significant amount of the time. The evidence available to us does not support that this is the case. There is no reasonable basis to believe that vaccines against COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2 will affect fertility.

Whenever I see disinformation like this, I’m always interested in who is spreading it.

Who are Michael Yeadon and Wolfgang Wodarg?

Having never heard of either member of this not-so-dynamic duo of physicians and scientists before, I naturally wondered who they were. Michael Yeadon was fairly easy to find in that news stories mentioned, that, yes, he did work for Pfizer until 2011. His LinkedIn profile lists him as having had multiple titles at Pfizer:

  • Chief Scientific Officer (CSO), Allergy and Respiratory Research, 1995-2011
  • Vice President, Allergy & Respiratory Head, Research, 2005-2008
  • CSO and VP, Allergy & Respiratory Research Head, 2006-2011

I can’t help but also note that some of the news stories I read described trying to verify his previous employment at Pfizer but having failed.

It doesn’t matter, though. Let’s assume that Dr. Yeadon’s employment history with Pfizer is as he says. A simple search on his name reveals that this isn’t his first rodeo when it comes to dubious science. In fact, I didn’t notice the first time I saw the viral blog post, but Yeadon has been featured on über-quack Joe Mercola’s website before making false claims about COVID-19:

Like several other scientists, doctors and researchers, Yeadon has pointed out that there are no excess deaths due to COVID-19.2,3,4 According to Yeadon, who has analyzed the statistics, about 1,700 people die each day in the U.K. in any given year. Many of these deaths are now falsely attributed to COVID-19.

“I’m calling out the statistics, and even the claim that there is an ongoing pandemic, as false,” he said in a recent interview with British journalist Anna Brees (see video above). He challenges anyone who doesn’t believe him to seek out any database on total mortality. If you do that, you will find that the daily death count is “absolutely bang-on normal,” Yeadon said.

Like Hodkinson, Yeadon is concerned about the fact that the laws of immunology are being completely ignored — apparently in order to fit some hidden agenda.

While Yeadon is unwilling to guess at what might be behind the creation of these false narratives, or why scientific truth is being censored, others have linked together evidence pointing to the pandemic being used as an excuse for the redistribution of wealth and the technocratic takeover of the whole world under the banner of a “Great Reset.”

First, it’s not true that there isn’t a lot of excess mortality in the UK due to COVID-19. Second, it’s obvious that Yeadon is a card-carrying, full-blown conspiracy theorist. For those who haven’t heard of it, the “Great Reset” is a proposal by the World Economic Forum that’s launched a major conspiracy theory claiming that the pandemic is being used as a pretext to “usher in a tech-driven dystopia free of democratic controls” and create a “new ‘social contract’ that ties you to it through an electronic ID linked to your bank account and health records, and a ‘social credit’ ID that will dictate every facet of your life”. Regardless of the merits of or problems with the proposal itself, the “Great Reset” is a horrible name. It’s almost as though the World Economic Forum wanted to provide the perfect fodder for conspiracy theorists, and I’d love to talk to whoever thought that name was a good idea. (Anyone who pays attention to conspiracy theorists could have told them that the very name would turn into a conspiracy theory!)

My irritation with a horrible name aside, it’s no wonder that Yeadon also features prominently in the “casedemic” conspiracy theory that claims that the count threshold for PCR testing for COVID-19 is intentionally being set too high (i.e., too sensitive) and that PCR testing can’t tell if you have COVID-19 and has been featured by Mercola on more than one occasion, never a good look if you are truly science-based. Indeed, if Yeadon were truly science-based in his concerns, he’d avoid Mercola like the quack plague that he is.

He’d also avoid the American Institute for Economic Research (AIER), the right-wing propagandists disguised as a “think tank” behind the eugenics-adjacent Great Barrington Declaration that basically advocates letting COVID-19 rip through the “young and healthy” population (because, you know, it’s harmless to them) while using “focused protection” to protect the elderly and those vulnerable to severe disease due to their chronic illnesses. Never mind that it’s impossible to protect the elderly and vulnerable from a virus that’s spreading unchecked everywhere else. Unsurprisingly, Yeadon not only doesn’t avoid AIER – he’s appeared in a video for the group asking why health authorities won’t declare the pandemic to be over. No, seriously.

If you don’t believe that Yeadon is a COVID-19 denialist and conspiracy theorist, a quick perusal of his Twitter feed will disabuse you of that notion:

I got tired of finding such Tweets; so I stopped looking. There were just so many to choose from.

What about Wolfgang Wodarg? He’s a German physician and politician, a member of the Social Democratic Party, who was elected to the Bundestag in 1994 and remained there for 15 years. One thing I found very rapidly is that, whatever his qualifications otherwise, COVID-19 is not his first rodeo when it comes to bad science and denying severity of a pandemic. It turns out that he did a similar thing during the H1N1 pandemic of 2009-2010 when he testified at a hearing conducted by the Council of Europe’s Committee on Social, Health and Family Affairs. The theme? “False pandemics: a threat to health”. Yes, that’s right:

At today’s hearing, several committee members pressed the WHO and vaccine company officials on two main issues. They expressed deep suspicions that vaccine industry experts on WHO advisory groups improperly influenced the WHO’s assessment of the pandemic in order to financially benefit pharmaceutical companies. Council members also questioned the WHO official, Dr Keiji Fukuda, special advisor on pandemic influenza to the WHO director-general, about confusion surrounding consideration of severity in its definition of a pandemic, which was revised at about the time the novel H1N1 virus was identified.

Some government public health officials and influenza experts have strongly rejected Wodarg’s claims, defending vaccine stockpiling as a prudent public health response and calling the charges “preposterous.”

In his opening statement, Wodarg said he was skeptical about the threat of the H5N1 virus and the contracts that countries had in place with vaccine makers in the event of a pandemic. “WHO had the trigger,” he said, alluding to the pandemic plans of some countries that activate the contracts when the WHO declares the highest alert level. He speculated that vaccine makers are making a financial windfall from what he claims are more expensive patented and adjuvanted vaccines. He also argued that the billions that governments have spent on pandemic vaccines could be better spent on other health issues.

He charged that the change in pandemic definition “made it possible to turn a run-of-the-mill flu into a pandemic and translate into millions for vaccine for no good reason.”

Wodarg also claimed that adjuvanted vaccines used in Europe were not adequately tested, especially in children, and expressed doubts about the safety of cell-based pandemic vaccines.

Sound familiar? In 2010, Wodarg described H1N1 as a “run-of-the-mill flu” that the WHO and EU turned into a “pandemic”, all in order to produce huge profits for vaccine companies. In 2020, he’s describing COVID-19 as not nearly as prevalent or serious because of PCR false positives, something done—you guessed it!—to lead to huge profits for vaccine companies. Meanwhile, back in March, in a video in German with English subtitles, Wodarg was trying to convince people that COVID-19 was no more dangerous than the flu as he claimed that the virus “is not new” but merely another harmless coronavirus. He also referred to the pandemic as “alleged” and concluded, “The king is wearing no clothes”.

Same as it ever was. Cranks gonna crank, and quacks gonna quack. The sad thing is that this not-so-dynamic duo is stoking real fear that the new COVID-19 vaccines will make women infertile and is doing it based on speculative nonsense. Truly, antivaccine tropes never, ever die, which is why it was inevitable that the claim that COVID-19 vaccines will endanger female fertility would make an appearance before the vaccines were approved. Think of this as Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers appearing to die at the end of a movie, only to reappear in a subsequent installment of the series to kill again. Slasher lie, indeed.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

183 replies on “Vaccines cause female infertility: Another antivax lie resurrected and repackaged for COVID-19”

Reaction to Covid kills more women than Covid in Japan

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/28/asia/japan-suicide-women-covid-dst-intl-hnk/index.html

or turns them into sex workers in Africa

https://allafrica.com/stories/202010300121.html

Brittian could kill 200,000 because the couldn’t get treatment for other causes.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12168579/coronavirus-lockdown-could-kill-200000-people-report/

or 121 million starve in 3rd world countries

https://time.com/5864803/oxfam-hunger-covid-19/

or we could kill 270 million people of color.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/world-could-face-hunger-pandemic-in-2021-world-food-programe-warns/news-story/f314d1447fb33c3375bad2cf0f6bbc09

Fantastic, scott.
You have discovered that everything is related and that a worlwide-scale sanitary catastrophe has catastrophic consequences.

The hunger and bad turn in third-world countries is more because of re-allocation of first-world resources (translation – way less money for humanitarian groups) than of the lockdowns themselves.
Although I am willing to read about a study of the economic impacts of our lockdowns and travel restrictions on the rest of the world. But not from the Sun.
Interesting case in Japan, to say the less. They managed to keep the Covid out, and didn’t lockdown, but apparently the travel restrictions is one of the main reasons economy and morale are taking a big hit.

Now, if you have a solution, I’m all ears.
If you want to say we shouldn’t lockdown, as the Japan case shows, that wouldn’t be enough. The international travel restrictions are affecting other economies.
If you are claiming that Covid doesn’t exist or isn’t worse than the flu… I have colleagues reporting catching it, themselves or their family members. Tread carefully.
If you are for letting people catch and die from Covid, don’t hesitate to lead by example.

Sorry Covid does exist, so do wars, car accidents, heart attacks, Hong Kong flu of 68-69, etc. we humans have managed to weight those risks and go on with our lives. “the peltzman effect” or risk compensation.

I will keep posting those things over and over again until the researchers and doctors and virologist in white coats and their sterile labs understand that in their ineffective attempts at containing this virus, which has lead to the physical and mental toll is worse then the virus. To a virologist everthing about Covid looks like a virus problem, to a Chemist its a chemical problem in the blood, to an enginereer it a problem of air circulation, to a politician it looks like an opportunity (“never let a good crisis go to waste). To normal people its a problem of putting food on the table an a roof over their heads. “Remember, those who are shutting down our economy haven’t missed a paycheck since lockdown began. We are not in this together.” Van Morrison

They have put millions of people out of work in 1st world countries which in turn starves 3rd world countries which depend on trade with other countries for employment, food and medicine which will kill hundred of millions.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(20)30229-1/fulltext

Yes people will die from the virus but the cold, heartless, clinical effort to stop the virus it will be much worse. Children’s schooling has slowed the learning process and for children in the inner cities, learning has stopped, in fact some studies have shown a regression in learning.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2772834

Drug and alcohol abuse has skyrocketed (it is ironic that alcohol and marijuana dispensers and strip clubs are considered “essential” services), domestic and child abuse has almost tripled, suicides are at levels that are similar to wars. Untreated and undiagnosed cancers, heart disease and other treatable human maladies are striking with effect that will last for years. ( I am sure that our host can confirm or refute that) The effects of unemployment from lock downs will kill millions but that is in the future.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S027795361400269X

I understand the wanting to stop the virus but at what cost are we inflicting on our children and poor people and people of color. Every day I see people driving ALONE in their cars with facemasks on, we are scaring people to death.

The clinicians have argued to separate the elderly from friends, family and in some cases from spouses and in the name of keeping them from getting the virus, only to die alone and cut off from everything that keeps them alive, in cold clinical terms its called “failure to thrive” . Try to imagine being separated from loved ones by wired glass and only able talk to them on a phone, for months on end, and the only face you see is covered by a mask and the only touch you get is from hands that are covered with a rubber glove and when the family does get to visit you in person, you know that you have only days to live and in the end you still die. Try to explain what is going on to an Alzheimers patient who still has moments of rational thought and try explaining why they can’t see their sons and daughters and grandchildren.

So mock, criticize and make fun of these/my posts, but until you have gone thru it yourself you will never understand what you are doing to the most vulnerable in society all in the name of keeping them from getting the virus.

So mock, criticize and make fun of these/my posts, but until you have gone thru it yourself you will never understand what you are doing to the most vulnerable in society all in the name of keeping them from getting the virus.

Oh FFS, give us another solution, you smart ass.

OK, fine, go around give everybody the virus. I don’t care.

All I want to do right now is to hand you a rope. To hang yourself.

But you did succeed in one thing: make me understand how much a pest I am when I am in the bottom of my cycle, being all negative and despondent.
Maybe next time, I’ll go through it instead of just pestering people in talking me out of it.
Hope you are happy.

The hunger and bad turn in third-world countries is more because of re-allocation of first-world resources (translation – way less money for humanitarian groups) than of the lockdowns themselves.

Data on U.S. aid to developing countries is readily available. It’s not as though those appropriations have been redirected to COVID lockdowns, or whatever the hell our (tinu) semiliterate commenter thinks has been happening.

I wish I didn’t have more pressing things to get to, as mr. randiscule is such a target-rich environment, but this is a good one:

it is ironic [sic] that alcohol and marijuana dispensers [sic] and strip clubs are considered “essential” services

One little, hilarious detail is missing:

“The judge noted that before being ordered to close in October the clubs, Pacers Showgirls International and Cheetahs Gentlemen’s Club, operated for five weeks during the pandemic under their own safety measures — including keeping strippers 15 feet (4.6 meters) from tables, allowing no more than one stripper per stage and requiring them and other employees to wear masks.”

Sexxy.

(The background is that the clubs served food and thus fell under California’s restaurant umbrella.)

Isn’t it interesting that scott suddenly picked up this line of argument (after someone else brought it up in a couple of threads about a month ago) and thinks that we will believe him that he actually cares? When he has never shown the slightest interest in the plight of women, or developing countries, or food workers?

Well, after his little attempt at mansplaining the deep web vs the dark web to me, I’m just going to assume the rest of his claims are as fact checked and accurate.

Give the man Shodan and nmap and he could blow the lid on all the broken Dairy Queen slushy machines across the nation. That, or just creep on Rush Limbaugh’s Nest.

Juistatech

That was me 7 weeks ago and 9 weeks ago.
Use the search at the top of the page.

Athaic

so you’re having personal issues.
since I first posted here a little over 24 hours ago over 35,000 human beings died of starvation and you want a pitty party….

Terrie

you having had heard of the “deep web” in 2003 is misremembering.
The term “deep web” wasn’t coined until 2009 when it was used inconjunction with the dark web.

You people are almost sick, thinking it ok to starve millions and millions of people in 3rd world countries, because you want to hide in your basement and of course force everyone else to do the same.

“The term “deep web” wasn’t coined until 2009 when it was used inconjunction [sic] with the dark web.” FFS.

Computer-scientist Michael K. Bergman is credited with coining the term deep web in 2001 as a search-indexing term.
.
.
The first conflation of the terms “deep web” with “dark web” came about in 2009 when deep web search terminology was discussed together with illegal activities taking place on the Freenet and darknet. Those criminal activities include the commerce of personal passwords, false identity documents, drugs, and firearms.

Since then, after their use in the media’s reporting on the Silk Road, media outlets have taken to using ‘deep web’ synonymously with the dark web or darknet, a comparison some reject as inaccurate and consequently has become an ongoing source of confusion. Wired reporters Kim Zetter and Andy Greenberg recommend the terms be used in distinct fashions. While the deep web is a reference to any site that cannot be accessed through a traditional search engine, the dark web is a portion of the deep web that has been intentionally hidden and is inaccessible through standard browsers and methods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_web#Terminology

What are your thoughts on IoT??

@scott, as Tim showed, 30 seconds of googling proves you wrong. The term was coined in 2001 in relation to search indexing, so not that shocking that I encountered it in 2003 in a class discussion of…. search engine vs database indexing. In fact, Google’s Ngram viewer shows a slight decline of the usage of the term from 2008 to 2009.

Given that you couldn’t be bothered to double check something that basic when you were told you were wrong, I think you’ve just proven that you’re about as reliable as a sundial in a mineshaft.

“you’re about as reliable as a sundial in a mineshaft.”

No, no. His enlightenment is a radio head (and his stand-ins) beaming out a carbide blowtorch — and that guy sometimes looks from side to side.

@ Athaic:

When you’re feeling a bit off or on the down cycle, it’s sometimes wise to avoid people who make you feel worse., They’re not worth the effort and aren’t changeable but merely are contrarians. On the other hand, you are a valuable contributor who offers meaningful comments that educate us all. I gave up responding to resident trolls because – frankly- these particular women sickened me with continuous story telling and feigning erudition or expertise: it’s the era of women’s enlightenment and there they go sounding off like creatures from yesteryear: I only responded because I know that many, many people read RI and never speak up and, newer ones may believe the misinformation, at least temporarily. But I see that other regulars will step up and graciously set things straight. I don’t have to do it!

You educate people about diverse topics and write extremely well in a foreign language which is admirable. You said something about “cycles” which means you know that these feelings don’t last but change although not as quickly as we’d like them to. Try to find the things that help you to change how you feel- even if they are ridiculous or seem unimportant. Sometimes I find odd things by chance: here’s something, I know that you and Tim are familiar with_ Lovecraftian lore_. I knew a little but found this year that a television show tackled a novel based on HPL’s themes which incorporated his horrors with the REAL horrors of mid century racism in the US. Basically, Black protagonists get entangled with racist sheriffs and Klan members whilst also battling gooey monsters and shape shifting cult members and interdimensional timewarps. It’s called *Lovecraft Country”, based on a novel. The show is wildly uneven but incredibly ambitious and the performers/ special effects were great plus it included true historical events and people Check it out.. Take care.

Tim did you even read what you posted?
“The first conflation of the terms “deep web” with “dark web” came about in 2009 when deep web search terminology was discussed together with illegal activities taking place on the Freenet and darknet.[8] Those criminal activities include the commerce of personal passwords, false identity documents, drugs and firearms.[9]”

So between two women discussing their “cycles” and how depressed they get or watching a beautiful Maui sunset without a mask, i am leaving this blog for a few hours.

but found this year that a television show tackled a novel based on HPL’s themes which incorporated his horrors with the REAL horrors of mid century racism in the US.

I pirated ALL of that in 1080p. The Vietnam girlfriend was… undeliciously Lovecraftian. And, in my antifa fashion, I loved it when the inadvertently summoned beast ripped the cop’s heads off.

“Maybe next time, I’ll go through it instead of just pestering people in talking me out of it.”

Don’t go anywhere into that next plane, Athaic. If you do, I might drive across the county to ******************* *** Scott and then spend the rest of my life asking Trump for a pardon. And that is a bad thing for me.

*oh shit, I did it again. I can’t afford a lawyer. Can Scott??

“watching a beautiful Maui sunset without a mask, i am leaving this blog for a few hours.”

Bu bye. Also, there is a volcano going on.. Jump across the puddle and ignore guidelines to have a very close look. Don’t wear a helment.. it makes you look like a nerd. They are not lava-proof anyways.

Mr. Tim

When I came to this site over a year ago, I wasn’t aware this was a women’s support group, I will mark my calendar and note not to post anything during this time, so as to not upset Athaic

How utterly romantic of you to want to save Athaic.
Reminds me of Don Quixote and his encounter with the merchants of Toledo and his attempts to save Dulcinea’s “virtue” but ends up severely beaten and left on the side of the road.

As to your reference to the volcano on Hawaii, please consult Google/Google maps or your Ouija board.

Kiluaea is on the Big Island of Hawaii and has been pretty much erupting since the 1950 and is about 150 miles from Maui. It would be the equivalent of living in Maine and worrying about flooding in New York city.

As for me I am getting ready to pack my gear for a dive at “fish eye” rock to look for hammer heads a maybe spot a whale or a least listening to them.

Interesting note, “fish eye” rock is right off the coast of Malokai, it’s where all the people who suffered from Hansens (leprosy) were imprisoned by order of the King of Hawaii, who followed the science and best medical advise of the time. See how far we have progressed, we now lock up everyone.

the last paragraph is SARCASM, IRONY.

https://sciencenordic.com/cars-and-traffic-cycling-denmark/bike-helmets-are-less-effective-than-we-think/1394145

As usual, scott doesn’t get the point . No one was discussing menstrual cycles – there are other types of cycles relevant to quality of life- AFAIK, A is a man and some of us are qualified to address these issues. Also, commenters share more than information about alt med and pseudoscience because there is solidarity amongst us and that includes conversations about lifestyle and entertainment.
Now we know how to push him away: pretend we’re all women…

@ Tim

There were so many wild concepts and images in that show, it’s hard to say what sequences stood out most but people changing skins was creepy, I enjoyed a few ideas like the spirit of a slave showing the way out of the collapsing building, the stage performers of different eras, the ‘space odyssey’, the creatures.
Production must have cost a fortune. Wikipedia has an entry that outlines episodes
I don’t enough HPL to know which ideas are purely from his twisted mind and which are from the novel or the television writers..

What are your thoughts on IoT??

I for one would welcome Scott’s refrigerator posting instead as a likely improvement.

“pretend we’re all women…”

Of course the XY chromosome is a short alphabetic sequence. Just saying.

Denice.
You really need and I repeat NEED to use the search engine at the top of this page. I posted this link in the first week in December or at least read the posts. To assert that everyone fake being a female because I would push you away, is quite the opposite of what would happen (if you were a real female and not self identify as female)

This is what I posted just two short weeks ago.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/yes-men-can-have-periods-and-we-need-to-talk-about-them

If you are female you should be outraged by the latest move now by NASDAQ.
The are preposting to the SEC that would allow for board members and CEO’s etc. to self identify as female, lgbtq etc. to count towards the minority representation. In laypersons terms, companies will not have to hire REAL females just men who are willing to self identify as female, etc. Men (who self identify as females) are already beating women in beauty contest, weight lifting, tennis etc. and liberal women are sitting back and letting men take over after al the gains they made

https://listingcenter.nasdaq.com/assets/RuleBook/Nasdaq/filings/SR-NASDAQ-2020-081.pdf

Hurray,

Scott seems to have read ‘The transsexual empire’ by Janice Raymond.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transsexual_Empire

A book I really hate. A friend of mine who was in transition at the moment this book was published and who was active in the feminist movement, was dropped, thanks to this book. Because, of course the best way to suppress women is to become a female yourself, with the help of hormones and operations. I don’t know how many transgenders there currently are, but we are still a small group.

You really need and I repeat NEED to use the search engine at the top of this page.

It keeps saying this, but I’ll be damned if I can figure out what it thinks the search terms should be (not that it works that well anyway; the obvious alternate approach is left as an exercise for the reader).

I don’t know how many transgenders there currently are, but we are still a small group.

Thanks for the reminder — I haven’t checked in with JP in a coon’s age.

@ scott:

First of all, NO ONE was discussing menstrual cycles. There are other cycles;
Second, you didn’t catch that I frequently speak by allusion or that I joke.
Next, believe me, regulars at RI know all about the search fx. and google, bing etc.
Many commenters have a history researching material for university or career.

Also, no one was discussing transgender people or their rights. I have no problem with them. If the NASDAQ (or DJIA or FTSE or DAX or CAC) allows them this, how does this affect me? Would my mutual funds crash? Let people be. I judge individuals by their abilities and how they treat others- male, female, gay/ straight, trans etc makes no difference to me..

In laypersons terms

Heh. Ha. My, oh my, no, it’s coming… wait, oh, G-d, no, send Muttley away, it’s not safe, hahahaha, bwahahahaha. Let me catch my breath…. AHHHAHAHAHA. Oh, dear, Deep breaths, deep breaths.

companies will not have to hire REAL females

Phew. Now, define your terms, sptwottsy.

Not shocked. I was hearing complaints about “mercury-laden vaccines” as early as May.

Of course vaccines all course infertility and that’s why you can hardly find anyone younger than 50.

Here’s what I can’t understand about anti-vaxxers’ acceptance of ‘theories’ ( I won’t go in details as most readers already know these ideas) that hold that a minute amount** of a substance/ “toxin”/ “contaminant” in a tiny amount of vaccine ( which is mostly water) could wreck such havoc, either by re-arranging/ “damaging”/ “destroying”” entire sections of the brain causing autism or transforming the entire neuroendocrine system throughout the body, causing infertility WITH ONE SHOT! Just like that!
When we DO know what sort of conditions ( repeated meds, alcohol, infection, deficiencies in utero) lead to autism or what types of daily meds are necessary for birth control ( temporary)
Come to think of it, it might make cheap and efficient non-surgical options for permanent BC.. but it’s NOT real..

** and yes, I know they may also accept homeopathy

If everyone is so concerned about women/vaccines/shutdowns/facemasks/flattenthecurve etc.,

try these.

Covid-19 Linked Hunger Could Cause More Deaths Than the Disease Itself, New Report Finds

https://time.com/5864803/oxfam-hunger-covid-19/

or More Japanese women have died from suicide in one month than have died from Covid in 11 months

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/11/28/asia/japan-suicide-women-covid-dst-intl-hnk/index.html

or our over reaction to Covid will kill 270 million poor people.

https://www.news.com.au/technology/world-could-face-hunger-pandemic-in-2021-world-food-programe-warns/news-story/f314d1447fb33c3375bad2cf0f6bbc09

Or we are turning African women into sex workers.

https://allafrica.com/stories/202010300121.html

Most of these women are 3rd world, persons of color, and poor, so lets shut down more things until we have vaccinated 70% of the population.

The last one was sarcasim

@rs: Maybe he uses Hickies instead. Alas, no familial ties to this company which has grown well over time as people no longer want to tie shoes.

Millions are dying in Africa ? Curiously, there is no reports. And there is other causes for malnutrition in Africa. (There is that may.)
Sex workers is really strange thing
Suicide is not transmissable disease, so number is irrelevant. COVID is now leading cause of death in US.

Aarno:
In 2019 over 9 million people died in Africa and 3rd world countries from hunger and malnutrition, and 2019 was not an unusual year.
In 2019 the death of those 9 million people didn’t even make it into the top 45 headline news stories. Just because you didn’t read about it or a reporter didn’t write about it doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

This year so far over 13 million people have died from hunger/starvation, that’s an excess deaths of 4 million, 4 times the number of Covid deaths.

Covid has taken 12 months to top 1 million deaths, starvation/hunger takes over a million a MONTH (and that number will only go up).

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/photos/biggest-news-stories-of-2019/ss-AADx2fu#image=1

@ scott

In 2019 the death of those 9 million people didn’t even make it into the top 45 headline news stories.

You know, you do bring up a sore point: there are plenty of situations we First-world nations and the accompanying mainstream media are good at ignoring in usual times, because it’s just business as usual

That this say about us is not flattering. On average, we are a bunch of self-centered jerks.

That being said, there is another lesson, another face to this coin: as you said, last year, these 9 million deaths didn’t made much of a bip on the News radar.
So, all these people who are suddenly highly concerned about this issue? Where were they, last year?

Another regular made a similar observation on another blog – suddenly, plenty of people are discovering that child abuse happens, and are all concerned it may happen more during lockdowns.
Very true, sadly true… But also, an issue which existed before lockdowns.

Isn’t it that the youngsters mean with the term “virtue-signaling”?

Covid has taken 12 months to top 1 million deaths, starvation/hunger takes over a million a MONTH (and that number will only go up).

Well, there’s an excellent reason to let SARS-CoV-2 run unchecked. Oh, wait.

Moron.

Athaic
Your are correct that it is sad that we ignored the 9 million but this year we caused an additional 4 million deaths because of our fear of a virus. (and a lot more next year).

As to the “virtue-signaling”
I reserve that to Harrison Ford who tells the rest of us not to fly, while owning 9 air planes (2 are private jets) and three helicopters and flies down the coast just to get a hamburger or Al Gore who owns 2 houses and llectures us about carbon foot print, rising sea levels (one of the mansions is 20 feet above sea level). The list could go on, but you get the idea.

My point was we are killing more people because of the virus then from the virus in an even more cruel way.

this year we caused an additional 4 million deaths because of our fear of a virus

How? Be specific.

1) Japan has always had a higher suicide rater than other developed countries. It’s a cultural thing. Also, they’ve had excellent control of COVID, so very few people have died. In other words, this is an irrelevant comparison.
2) The current terms are “developing nation” and “developed nation” not “3rd world” and “1st world”. Those terms went out of use years ago, because they only made sense in the context of the Soviet Union.

3) News flash, scott, you can’t force people to go to restaurants or bars or salons. Even if my governor gave up tomorrow and said “to hell with it”, I’m still not going in anywhere until I’ve been vaccinated. And a lot of other people here feel the same way. So those restaurants and bars and movie theaters would still be empty. What they need is meaningful financial support from the government, not forcing their employees to risk their lives for the 10 people who want to go out to a bar.

@Dr Hickie

Alas, you still have to reach your feet to use them! I was all set to order several for weight-challenged friends and family who can’t reach their shoes.

@ JustaTech

Re “developed” vs “first-world”

In fairness, I’m the one (or one of the ones) using antiquated vocabulary here.
Just showing my age, I guess

@Athaic,
Yes, but scott started it. Also, I like you because you’re an interesting and sensible person.

@ JustaTech

(blushing) Oh, Thanks 🙂
Some in the present company do encourage me to be a better human.

Coming to an internet near you, via Twitter, Facebook and Google. If you suppress someone else speech, some day your speech will be suppressed. ““Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.”

“China has a politically weaponized system of censorship; it is refined, organized, coordinated and supported by the state’s resources,” said Xiao Qiang, a research scientist at the School of Information at the University of California, Berkeley, and the founder of China Digital Times. “It’s not just for deleting something. They also have a powerful apparatus to construct a narrative and aim it at any target with huge scale.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/19/technology/china-coronavirus-censorship.html

“Be careful which “rights” you want to get rid of, some day they will come for rights that you enjoy.” a college professor.

Lower-case scott: “Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.”

“Whatever the deficiencies in their knowledge of science, anti-vaccine advocates sure can spin the Orwellian language, where up is down, left is right, and vaccines are alway, always, always the cause of autism, or at least more harmful than good.”

http://sciencebasedmedicine.org/smartvax-versus-maxvax/

By the way, George Orwell, who was not an antivaxer, died of a (imperfectly) vaccine-preventable disease – tuberculosis.

“Be careful which “rights” you want to get rid of, some day they will come for rights that you enjoy.” a college professor.

Cool non sequitur, bro.

P.S. Argument by aphorism rarely goes well, but argument from made-up aphorism never does.

To the Baconator.

If tomorrow all the anti-vaxxers were to disappear or any other group that you dispise were to vanish.
How long before the people you are aligned with would turn on you with the same fanaticism.
History shows that the first group of people who suffer after a revolution are the people who supported the revolution.

And please try to keep up with a thread, I made no mention of vaccine in my post as I was posting about a New York Times article on how China suppresed information on Covid, you have a propensity to lable everything and everyone anti vax.

So, Lower-case scott, you’re not an antivaxer despite posting reams of antivax glurge, including this example of ”sarcasim” (sic) from the current thread?

“Most of these women are 3rd world, persons of color, and poor, so lets shut down more things until we have vaccinated 70% of the population.”

By the way, you missed out by only quoting Van Morrison to support your Covidiocy. A really sciency approach would cite Eric Clapton too.

@ scott

Because of course, we here are like China and want to give antivaxers the reeducation camp treatment (although, right now, I would be sorely tempted to get medieval on a certain troll).

You expect us to do what? Run to the rescue of Chinese antivaxers? (assuming those are Chinese antivaxers being harassed right now, which is not a given)

I’m sorry, but the Uighurs and the people from Hong-Kong are at the front of the line. Their harassement by Chinese authorities has been going on a bit longer and a bit more physically than antivaxers.
Didn’t see you talking about that.

Frankly, you know that? If you really believe in these sorry issues, go ask the right people about it. Meaning your politicians. Neither me or the other ones here are the ones making lockdown policies or turning a blind eye on China’s horseplay with free speech.

Go ask Trump. He is still POTUS for 20 days or so.

History shows that the first group of people who suffer after a revolution are the people who supported the revolution.

Well, there’s a bit of Americana that I missed out on.

Athaic

You are kind of strange, “going medievil”? interesting concept, but the invention of the modern firearm has put an end to the use of suits of armor, and battle axes.
As for posting about the Uighurs, I have been posting about their oppression and the use of high tect software and facial recognition and american IT companies assisting in that, right here for about 6 months. Please avail yourself of the search box at the top of this page.
Again, the little band of merry men/women/people, don’t quite get the concept of starving millions and millions of humans.

The last libertarian I spoke too said that, as long as was your property, it was fine to torture animals to death or dump toxic waste. I’m glad to see that Scott expects American companies to behave ethically, even in other countries.

Antivaxxers are serious threat to public health during a pandemic. And they are certainly not suppressed. Their problem is that they cannot monetarize their antivaxxing, which causes lots of noise about censorship. Doctors have a duty of care, so their medical advice cannot be detrimental to public health.

As of, right now, I’ haven’t yet seen or heard any anti-vax / woo misinformation about the new variant of Covid, BUT I predict that SOON we will hear fear mongering along these lines ( select one or more):
— the new variant will render the current vaccines totally USELESS
— or DEADLY: Don’t take them now!
— the new variant is weaker and therefore you don’t need a vaccine for it
— it will be more deadly so vaccination is futile
— it is a product of pharma lab tinkering with DNA ( or RNA)
— the longer the virus persists, the less likely it will mutate, so wait to vaccinate

-btw- that last one is totally wrong but that never stopped anti-vaxxers

Well, I’m going to go with DEADLY since, in those links Narad provided was this blurb about Antibody Dependent Enhancement. I don’t know much about the immune system or whether the mRNAs, adenovirus-vector ones, or natural infection might be the more baddie if that were the case– I’ve heard tell that a second ‘natural’ maskless dumbass-aquired infliction from the beer store is worse the second time around. I’m scared over the videos of all the truckers stranded that were going into France. Is there something ‘they’ are not telling us?

Lawrence, yelling about the new strain is bad for vaccine optics in that the public might consider things are futile and not bother with Covid vaccines.

Again- what’s up with you guys, why are you shooting yourselves in the foot?! Surely you couldn’t be interested in public health!

@ Greg

Not everyone interested in defending science is also invested in defending public health. I’m pro-disease ! I thought that was clear since the time we first met in 2019 on the topic of your denialism on autism/MMR with the Danish study.

I do not endorse public health. I simply believe that anti-science on medical matters is murderous. That it’s even worse than being pro-disease.

Not everyone interested in defending science is also invested in defending public health.

Or wasting time on bad-faith actors.

As of, right now, I’ haven’t yet seen or heard any anti-vax / woo misinformation about the new variant of Covid, BUT I predict that SOON we will hear fear mongering along these lines ( select one or more):

Denice, if I were to offer my antivaxx two-cents, I would agree that something just doesn’t sound right about a new strain popping up in England of all places where we first saw Covid vaccination. I am also suspicious of how the allergic cases occurred in small samples (ie Alaska and the nurse that fainted). Could it be Covid vaccination harms are through the roof and blaming things on a new strain will be the cover for even more overwhelmed hospitals?

@scott allen
I agree wholeheartedly with you that we are paying too steep a cost for Covid hysteria, but costs for the most parts are subjective and political. This lends to fertile grounds for exploitation — and as we can see here!

VUI-202012/01 was first observed in the UK in September, but don’t let that stop you from connecting it to vaccines, Greg.

VUI-202012/01 was first observed in the UK in September, but don’t let that stop you from connecting it to vaccines, Greg.

Maybe — but throughout Covid we have heard now and again of new strains. The heightened attention that this one is receiving from the provaxx crowd just doesn’t feel right, and especially with it being bad for vaccination optics Something is afoot.

New mutant can be dangerous, this is the reason of high alert. Or perhaps it is not dangerous

“Bad for vaccination optics,” how exactly?

The unimpeded spread of viruses tends to lead to an increase in mutations.

I love that you keep coming back here and show your extreme ignorance….

Here in the UK many people think that Johnson is using the ‘new’ variant as cover for him having to change the rules for Xmas and generally being a shite PM, and that all the travel bans and thousands of lorry drivers stuck in Kent is just the collateral damage of his face saving exercise – needlessly cynical? Time will (hopefully) tell.

The heightened attention that this one is receiving from the provaxx crowd just doesn’t feel right, and especially with it being bad for vaccination optics Something is afoot.

No wonder you are an anti-vaxxer, Greg. Everything looks like a conspiracy to you.

The concern is because this variant is suspected to be more able to infect than other strains and hence could move through the community more quickly. Normal, sensible stuff, Greg.

In other news…I just had to contain my rage as I listened to two of our exceedingly-polite and patient CCU RNs deal with the grown children of one of our ICU patients on some kind of care conference on the phone. They are in several states and all called in to DEMAND we do everything we can despite this being a comfort measures situation. We need to put a surgical airway into their mom since she’s been on a vent for so long and they are on the call saying things like: “If she even really has this fake virus,” and, my personal favorite: “When they finally find out what is actually making mom sick.” The best part? Earlier in the week, one of them tried to arrange for a transfer for her to the nearest academic center, which promptly told them to go piss up a rope because they’re completely full and the care wouldn’t change.

“If she even really has this fake virus,”

The rumor is that Trump will issue a pardon for SARS-CoV-2 shortly, absolving the virus of guilt for causing COVID-19.

[email protected] Athaic or Squirrel

On the Paul Thomas thread, I am inviting you guys to share your opinions of why mRNA vaccination could potentially pose a bigger autoimmunity issue than getting and recovering from Covid naturally. Dr Bhakdi’s, Corona False Alarm, appears to be not available over the Holidays. Perhaps you guys can assist me and also save me $20..

Did you read Orac’s text at all. It was about autoimmune issues. In a nutshell, if such a sort sequence similarity (between SARS CoV 2 spike protein and a placenta protein) would cause autoimmune diseases, we would all have we would all have one.
MRNA is translated to a protein, so mRNA vaccine is not different from a protein vaccine. A plus is that mRNA rapidly disintegrates.

So even though we do not have Athaic and Squirrel coming to the rescue, Aarno is, nevertheless, here to help me keep $20 for Xmass shopping. Thanks, Aarno! Aarno, I am not consider the autoimmunity issue specifically as it relates to female infertility, but I am considering it generally.

Below is an article discussing waning neutralizing antibodies of Moderns’s vaccine. My question is are neutralizing and binding antibodies different protiens?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2020/12/22/the-moderna-vaccines-antibodies-may-not-last-as-long-as-we-hoped/?sh=7d5525424567

@Greg, I have a lot going on now, but I’ll give you a quick answer. I still need to work my way through Sompayrac.

That was a reasonably good article. It didn’t get into details like which antibodies. Th1, Th2, CD4 or Cd8? We expect those to decline over time. The memory B cells are key to longterm protection.

We’ll find out how well protection holds up as trial participants are monitored for 2 years and the vaccines are used in the general population.

Even an annual booster wouldn’t be too bad.

And Aarno still hasn’t answered; And Squirrel entered but really did not address the autoimmunity issue. Athaic?! For a science blog, why are you guys often so hesitant to discuss the science?!

@ Greg

As a matter of fact, we do not shy away from discussion the science with you. You’ve indeed been thoroughly humiliated in 2019 on you denialism of MMR/autism. And I’m quite proud in having been a massive science-based jerk against you.

But if you’ll excuse me, I’ll be more busy making death wishes on myself while defending the notorious antivaxxer and covid denier Fourtillan that has been coercively sectioned in psychiatry and solitary confinement in France.

Because some of us do believe that personal freedoms of bloody jerks like you do matter.

Arschloch.

It’s Christmas. We have better things to do than to make an annoying troll happy.
Actually, that’s true anytime.

“make an annoying troll happy”

Trolls are never happy. They only have a variable level of despair. The level of despair is temporarily lessened by drawing others into their distorted world view. Trolls are not social. At best they will grudgingly tolerate the company of other trolls.

OK, seems like most of you are good with discussing the science. Good! Let’s continue then…

Analysis of the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2 shows 78.4% similarity with HL epitopes. For the avoidance of confusion, a standard protein blast searches for functionalities and homologies to other proteins. However, antibodies can only recognize 5–6 amino acids and therefore a 6-amino acid rolling window search for antibody epitopes was performed. A search so tailored to match against all human known proteins will give a 78.4% human similarity to the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, that is if all epitopes on the 1,255-amino acid long SARS-CoV-2 spike protein can be used by antibodies then there will be 983 antibody binding sites which also could bind to epitopes on human proteins. This is what we did and found.

In my layman reading of that spiel, it seems to be suggesting that spike protein of SARs-COV-2, which is the target of current vaccines, is similar to human-like epitopes. The end result of this is the virus will bind on lots of of locations of human cells, and that is what they found. Is that not a bad thing? Is that not a precursor of autoimmunity issues?

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/DBBC0FA6E3763B0067CAAD8F3363E527/S2633289220000083a.pdf/biovacc19_a_candidate_vaccine_for_covid19_sarscov2_developed_from_analysis_of_its_general_method_of_action_for_infectivity.pdf

@ Greg

“OK, seems like most of you are good with discussing the science. Good! Let’s continue then…”

Not me. Not today. I’m busy defending your antivaxx and deviant doctor buddies. The one that you’re not busy defending… given that you only want to bitch around on inconsequential matters. You see medical dictatorship only where it suits you, pal.

Unenlightened self-interest does not impress me, mate.

@ Narad

Thanks for the link. Just read that:

“”No scientist or group of scientists created this virus in a laboratory. That would require insight into [viral] pathogenesis and protein engineering that does not exist,” said Robert Garry, Ph.D., virologist at Tulane University.”

Maybe it’s because I’m a crank, but I’ve always thought it highly improbable that people knew enough to engineer such a virus in a lab. I do not have enough faith in “science” for that…

Oh! Well… I guess it’s the man-made trope rearing it’s ugly head over and over again. I mean, I do not exclude out of principle the idea of human tinkering and humans making a mess, but gee… what would it bloody change that this virus had been engineered? It would still be there, anyway! I just do not f%cking get it why there is all this fuss in the first place! Aside some geopolitical stakes that may end it being somewhat significant.

People are just looking for a way to frighten themselves with a good ol’ Frankenstein story from time to time, I guess.

F%ck covid deniers assholes. I’m going to watch a good Gremlins movie, waiting for hell to be unleashed on Earth. If only I could engineer a virus that would target stupidity, you’d bet I’d do it.

@Greg Neutralizing antibodies bind to the active site of the receptor
As I said before, six amino acid sequence similarity is quite common. If it causes autoimmunity, we would all be dying because of autoimmune diseases.
MRNA vaccines are mRNA, which produces protein. The result is same as in an ordinary vaccine, bur you do not need a cell culture.

Thanks for the link.

I’m sadly unsurprised that ABC News would put a boner such as “M16” (for MI6) in electronic print.

New op-ed in the Wall St. Journal by neurologist Michael Segal protesting “Facebook’s censors” who announced they will remove false claims that Covid-19 vaccines contain microchips or anything else not on the list of ingredients.

Segal (who notes that microchips are small enough to fit through a needle but that the idea they’d be used is “ridiculous”) says “banning discussion is a terrible way to counter a conspiracy theory” and also that Facebook is inhibiting “serious discussion” about vaccine ingredients that might be causing rare allergic reactions to the Pfizer vaccine. You see, Segal and a “drug-formulation scientist named Chris Moreton think that allergic reactions might be caused by bean protein — since some of the lipid ingredients are derived from plants such as beans and therefore it follows that bean protein traces could be the culprit. Lipids…proteins…they’re both molecules…connect the dots…

It seems to me that such a theory might be credible if anyone had shown there was bean protein in the vaccine in the first place, but whatever. Segal is unhappy because he thinks he won’t be able to speculate on Facebook without facts and that this restriction will encourage conspiracy theorists.

Segal is also the guy who recently urged that the second, “booster” dose of Covid-19 vaccine be suspended to improve supply so that more people could get the vaccine sooner (never mind what this might do to effectiveness and public willingness to get the vaccine).

With pro-immunization friends like these…

@ Dangerous Bacon

“New op-ed in the Wall St. Journal by neurologist Michael Segal protesting “Facebook’s censors” who announced they will remove false claims that Covid-19 vaccines contain microchips or anything else not on the list of ingredients.”

Why not lock him up in solitary confinement to teach him a lesson?

I’m getting more and more angry as time flies on medical matters.

Too much BS really is too much BS. I’m all for debate, even with antivaxxers, as there is a need to convince them. But opposing cancellation of false claims of microchips in vaccines starts being a bit too much to my taste. There are psych drugs with “tracking devices”, though. I guess that’s OK, but that false claims of microchips in vaccines should fly by?

I’m getting really annoyed by jerks of this magnitude.

Lock them up! No pity!

Orac writes,

“Their assertion is based on a highly speculative and incredibly unlikely immunologic mechanism.”

MJD says,

Awareness of autoimmunity based on cross-reactivity of structurally homologous exogenous/endogenous proteins is in its infancy. In continuation, I am pleased that vaccine manufacturers have recognized the potential hazards of natural rubber latex (i.e., Hev-b proteins) and have eliminated such cross-reactive proteins from vaccine packagings. For example, the CDC communicates that the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine does not contain latex.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/Pfizer-BioNTech.html

@ Orac’s minions,

Jump on the adaptive-immune-system wagon, even though the cart may be in front of the horse in some instances.

So the vaccine MIGHT cause infertility but you don’t THINK it will. So it could. I didn’t realize there was much fertility in the DEVELOPED world left to impact, since the HPV vaccine started ravaging us 14 years ago. Not to mention the Talwar vaccine.

Isn’t this something we should knoiw for sure, before recommending it to women of childbearing age? Otherwise, eventually; survival of the species will depend on antivaccine mothers & women in the LDC’s, who really have no need for the covid vaccine anyway, since covid is pretty much over there. (LDC’s = a country without an annual flu vaccine campaign)

I mean, it’s pretty much that way already anyway.

@Christine, Two things.
1) Saying something “might” happen is not a reason to halt an action. We can argue hypotheticals in perpetuity, but in my opinion, those hypotheticals must have some plausibility.
2) The claim that HPV vaccination caused infertility has been investigated.
Thoroughly.
It doesn’t. Please do NOT cite the Meylor sisters. Their case was one of the ones investigated.

@ Julian Frost

“Saying something “might” happen is not a reason to halt an action. We can argue hypotheticals in perpetuity, but in my opinion, those hypotheticals must have some plausibility.”

Yep.

@ Julian.

I had to look the Myelor sisters up. Why would I cite something I didn’t know about? So they are two of the millions that can vouch that vaccines are the leading cause of coincidental disability in the world.

What part of “[t]here is no reasonable basis to believe that vaccines against COVID-19/SARS-CoV-2 will affect fertility” do you not understand, Christine?

I didn’t realize there was much fertility in the DEVELOPED world left to impact, since the HPV vaccine started ravaging us 14 years ago.

See this, Peaches? Good luck finding Ragnarök.

So, should we end this convesation following Godwin’s Law (you’ll have to look it up) or would you perfer to let NoNards continue

The very liberal Washington Post (you know “Democracy Dies in Darkness’) and its supporters have called Trump “like Hitler” or Hitleresque) and his followers little NAZI’s.

so about a week ago The (very liberal) Washington Post ran a cartoon that showed Republicans as rats and vermin that needed to be exterminated

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/12/18/telnaes-trump-republican-rats-cartoon/?arc404=true

well guess what, that cartoon was very similar to an actual cartoon the real NAZI’s published that refered to the Jews as rats that needed to be exterminated.

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/shortcuts/2015/nov/18/rats-the-history-of-an-incendiary-cartoon-trope

I don’t recall that Trump ever called for the extermination of liberal democrats, but HE is Hitler.

Ok I couldn’t help myself.
Godwin’s Law.

“an online discussion goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Adolf Hitler or his deeds, the point at which effectively the discussion or thread often ends.”
sorry, I copied that from wikipedia

and yes, Mele Kalikimaka.

<

blockquote>The very liberal Washington Post… and its supporters have called Trump “like Hitler” or Hitleresque) and his followers little NAZI’s.

<

blockquote>

Good on them. Have you seen a trump rally?? I’ve a friend (raised in a sundown town) that called last night to then gloat about voting trump. I asked him what he thought he liked of the man and his answer was “the guys I talk to say that he has done great things.” **

— Have you seen his twitter?*

— no, my computer hasn’t worked since you didn’t buy me a battery and come over to put it in for me.

— Have you watched any news outlets other than Fox?

— no, I only watch stuff with laugh tracks.

— @#AFUCKKIN%^#

— Hey, I’m not yelling. You are yelling.

— I have to go. My butt is stinky and I have to take a massive Trump.

click

“and yes, Mele Kalikimaka.” Well, I to hate ‘r’ and ‘s’ just because I’ve never been given a reason not to. Same to you.

*88 million ‘followers’ and over the last five years they have all mastered the “I did not see the tweet” defence. Ask one of your kind If they saw the latest trump vomit on twitter. Answer: “no”. I’m guessing that you have not either. Freerepucklic, Limbaugh, Fox, oann, newsmax don’t exactly advertize the unhingedness.

**Upon my criticism a couple years ago, he chastised me that “he is our president and should be respected.” Boy, howdy; that is not at all what he voiced of Obama. Or for that matter, any presnedent before.

@ Narad,

Looks Ragnarök-ish to me. The DC’s are all under replacement fertility level.

CK, what makes you think that you are cleverer than every relevant member of every public health organisation in over fifty countries?

@Scott Allen Have you read what Laura Ingraham says about Dems at very conservative Fox News ?

An eagle MIGHT drop a turtle on your head, killing you, if you step outside your home, but something tells me you’re not going to be staying inside.

to
Terry and the Pirates

If I were to reply like you just did, “No nards” ( who also doesn’t know how to use “search” on this blog) would be all up in my undies about how “stupid” and “ignorant” (his very words) I was, in not using the “correct” reply modality on this site. So I would be very cautious that someone might drop a house on you.

sorry for the last sentence, my roomate is an old school female and is defensive of her roomate.

and Merry Christmas

“my roomate is an old school female and is defensive of her roomate.”

Your roomate is a nazi. Is she not??

How was the diving (I wish I was there). Did you wear a mask*?

*interesting thing about that. I’ve spent many years freediving in a quarry and practicing static apnea there and in a river. I don’t know when it happened; never thought about it. But, I realized one time that I could see perfectly without goggles. Is this common?

An eagle MIGHT drop a turtle on your head

Or a god in the form of a turtle may catch an eagle (1) and steer it so it is drooped on the head of some écœurant.

(channeling Terry Pratchett)

(1) guess what this turtle grabbed to steer the eagle. The lowercase fool keep making jokes about it. (2)
(2) and actually Pterry was anatomically wrong, or went for rule of funny, these organs are not apparent in male birds.

He has the all too commonplace habit of simply ignoring demonstrations of error and changing the subject instead.

CK: “I didn’t realize there was much fertility in the DEVELOPED world left to impact, since the HPV vaccine started ravaging us 14 years ago.”

The population crash is well underway.

“The U.S. population today, at the start of 2020, numbers just over 331 million people…
Ten years from now, the U.S. population will have almost 350 million people.”

http://pbs.org/newshour/nation/3-ways-that-the-u-s-population-will-change-over-the-next-decade

Apparently we have HPV vaccination to thank for that increase. I suspect the Gerber baby food and Huggies people are secretly behind the drive to vaccinate against HPV, so they can boost sales of their products.*

*of course, claiming HPV vaccination boosts the population sounds just as nutty as blaming it for destroying fertility. There is, however, a logical reason to credit the vaccine for helping bring some babies into the world. HPV infection sometimes necessitates invasive surgical procedures to prevent serious precancers or cancers from progressing. Those procedures can impair or prevent fertility. So if they’re made unnecessary by preventing HPV infection in the first place, more women can have children.

@ DB,

The US is under replacement fertility levels. We will be a nation of mostly old people. Unless; immigratrion.

To function, we need at least a worker-to-beneficiary ratio of about 2.8 to 1. In 1975 we had a 3.2 to 1. In 2016 we had a 2.8 to 1. In 2040 we will have (estimated) a 2.1 to 1. That’s not enough.

Hopefully our immigrants will come from countries without the HPV vaccine so at least they could breathe some life (youth) back into us.

By some measures, U.S. fertility is stable or moving back up:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/05/22/u-s-fertility-rate-explained/

Declines in recent years have been fueled by economic factors.

There is of course zero association between HPV vaccines (or any vaccines) and fertility. Antivaxers jumped on a bogus association between HPV vaccination and premature ovarian failure, which has been disproved. Example:

http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6719304/

CK: “Why would I cite something I didn’t know about?”

Because you do it all the time?

Hopefully our immigrants will come from countries without the HPV vaccine so at least they could breathe some life (youth) back into us.

Let that sink in, perhaps with a brief reflection upon Rima Laibow first.

So the vaccine MIGHT cause infertility but you don’t THINK it will. So it could.

No. It is not a case that the vaccine might cause infertility. It is a case of two people with form in playing down the impacts of pandemics and the need for vaccines trying to frighten people by making the claim. The evidence they presented showed they were really quite ignorant about this.

This is on a par with the flat earthers who say that if you travel far enough, you will fall of the edge of the Earth.

The rest of you post has similar levels of ignorance.

Ho. Hum.

@Christine Kincaid Do you know that only sure thing is death and taxes ? Otherwise, you should evaluate the data. Now million Americans have received first shot of COVID vaccine:
https://www.foxnews.com/health/live-updates-coronavirus-12-23-2020#
Quite robust safety profile is possible. (Greg has reported less than then allergic reactions, btw)
As Orac cited, COVID 19 does not cause infertility, so COVID vaccine (part of its spike protein) cannot cause it either. It would have showed up in clinical trials, too.
HPV does not cause infertility either. DeLong made “study” about the matter. She did not include contraception usage.

Yesterday, I noticed that the maps Narad linked had one about rates of contraceptive usage by country- which, unfortunately didn’t fill in correctly- so I found another source: World Contraceptive Usage and Indicators of Development ( easy to find) which of course, illustrates that countries with lower birth rates are the ones with much higher use of contraception. So the high rates in sub-Saharan Africa just might NOT be attributable to lack of flu vaccines or HPV but because they use far less birth control. Similarly, more developed countries use more contraception which has been the case for decades
Control of reproduction is an important issue when addressing poverty in both developed and less developed locales..

@ Aarno

Do you know that only sure thing is death and taxes?

And even so. There is some debate about death.

Quite robust safety profile is possible. (Greg has reported less than then allergic reactions, btw)

What ‘robust’ safety profile, Aarno?! I knew the numbers were out there, and I happened to find it! The CDC reported that after the first week of Covid vaccination nearly 3% of the guinea pigs — ahhemmnn, vaccinated– were seriously put out of commission. That’s horrible! Remember also that Pfizer’s trial reported far more adverse reactions after the second dose! Could the numbers jump to over 10% severely maimed after the second dose?

No wonder the talk now is delaying the second dose and just giving everyone the first dose. Perhaps the hope is to not raise further alarm bells and that the limited protection from one dose will get everyone into the summer months where things will likely improve.

https://humansarefree.com/2020/12/cdc-report-over-3000-are-unable-to-perform-normal-daily-activities-after-receiving-the-covid-19-vaccine.html

@Greg When I said robust, I meant that we have data of million vaccinations. This is enough data.
There is now PEG allergy warning. Perhaps this have prevented allergic reactions.

It’s Christmas but that won’t prevent my RI indulgence. Back to the drawing board….

As mentioned, I am not so much interested in this specific issue of whether Covid vaccination might cause female infertility but the matter of how such adverse events or autoimmunity issues might come about.

Humans do have a protein called syncytin-1, which is critical in developing the placenta during pregnancy, Stockwell said in an email. “Theoretically, an immune response against this protein could cause increased risk of a failed pregnancy.”

But if the claims in the blog post were accurate, that would mean that pregnant women who catch COVID-19 would also become infertile, he said. No increased infertility or pregnancy loss has been observed in women with COVID-19.

OK! But then we have this….

Both ADE pathways can occur when non-neutralizing antibodies or antibodies at sub-neutralizing levels bind to viral antigens without blocking or clearing infection.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41564-020-00789-5

And up-thread I also cited this study…

Difficult to predict In such vaccine designs, there is no innate guiding of where the antibodies should bind. However, due to continued boosting of these epitopes through life, there is an elevated risk for development of ADE which must be expected due to the fact that if the virus returns at a later date in a mutated form, having modified antigenic composition, partial binding may occur and hence result in ADE (Ricke D, et al., 2020; Negro et al., 2020).

https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/DBBC0FA6E3763B0067CAAD8F3363E527/S2633289220000083a.pdf/biovacc19_a_candidate_vaccine_for_covid19_sarscov2_developed_from_analysis_of_its_general_method_of_action_for_infectivity.pdf

Ok, let this pupil now put up his hand in class and ask the experts here a very simple question: Are we more likely to see neutralizing binding from natural infection and recovery than from artificial infection through vaccination? Athaic, Squirrel, Aarno…?

Btw, Athaic where have you been? We haven’t talked in such a long time. I really did enjoy our discussion about the possibility of Measles infection destroying memory cells.

@ Greg

“It’s Christmas but that won’t prevent my RI indulgence. Back to the drawing board….”

Aren’t we blessed?

“As mentioned, I am not so much interested in this specific issue of whether Covid vaccination might cause female infertility but the matter of how such adverse events or autoimmunity…”

How surprising!

It’s not lupus!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmP4DJO6IzE

It’s like listening to someone recite the words inscribed on ‘the one ring’ whilst being clearly unable to understand the tongue of Mordor.

Are we more likely to see neutralizing binding from natural infection and recovery than from artificial infection through vaccination?

Generally speaking? It’s less likely with a natural infection.
But we already told you that a hundred times.

I was around, Greg. I’m not the one hiding in echo chambers (are pro-vax dissenting voices still censured at your usual joints?)

OMG, Athaic is back! Great! Athaic, I really missed our immunology discussions.

I am a little unclear, are you saying vaccination generally confers better neutralizing binding than natural infection? Again, the issue is if vaccination provides less specific binding than natural infection then that could account for more ADE and autoimmunity issues from vaccination. Of course, that would also effectively defeat Orac’s central argument made here that if Covid vaccination causes female infertility then we would also see it from natural Covid infections.

Athaic, I was also reflecting on some other slightly unrelated matters. For instance, with the Pfizer trial, it was said that it wasn’t sure whether the vaccine would protect against infection, yet that study revealed some of the trial participants found to have Covid symptoms were vaccinated — albeit there were far fewer of them than controls. Doesn’t that prove that the vaccine is not protective? Also, if the vaccine is not neutralizing the virus and the virus is perpetually locked in a wrestling match with the B-cells, what’s neutralizing the virus and ridding it from the body?

Athaic, again, I am overjoyed that you are back and we can continue these immunology discussions on Covid.

@Greg COVID vaccine is piece of COVID virus, after it it is translated. This is reason why Orac says that if vaccine causes infertility, disease should cause it, too,

ADE is a theoretical possibility. It was not noticed during the trials. It is not stronger immune reaction either (in a sense you refer). Actually, it is suboptimal.
Vaccines does not generally produce better immune response than original disease, either.

ADE is a theoretical possibility. It was not noticed during the trials.

TBH – I am not most interested in adverse events observed during the trials. Don’t know if you will agree with me that there is a lot of art to these trials. What I am most interested is what’s happening with the real-life rollout. What’s going on with the near 3% vaccinated cases suffering serious adverse events?

Where the trials are concerned, I am also most interested in the final neutralizing findings that were obtained. I don’t believe they were ever given. I was hoping Athaic would stick around and answer some of these questions, but she disappeared again. Must say that lately she is acting so shy around me.

So you think that trials are falsified and data will come out during rollout. Have you considered liability involved if this happens ? I guess Robert Kennedy Jr would sue. Regardless, no ADE is reported after more than million vaccinations,
Btw, COVID vaccine is not “artificial infection”. A protein, or mRNA, cannot replicate

So you think that trials are falsified and data will come out during rollout. Have you considered liability involved if this happens ? I guess Robert Kennedy Jr would sue. Regardless, no ADE is reported after more than million vaccinations

Aarno, again, nearly 3% are seriously maimed after just one freaking dose of the vaccine! If that’s not ADE then please tell me what the hell it is.

@ Greg

“Aarno, again, nearly 3% are seriously maimed after just one freaking dose of the vaccine!”

Reference needed.

Also, I like simple explanations…

Are we to believe the six suffering anaphylactic reactions are separate from the near 3% that are maimed? So, are we dealing with PEG or ADE?

@ Greg

No reference for the 3% claim?

Oh well…

BTW… See? Here in Newsweek? ’bout the lab? Politics…

“Nonetheless, Gadkari, a former president of Modi’s right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party, told NDTV, “We need to understand the art of living with corona. That art of living is very important as it is not a natural virus. It is an artificial virus and many countries across the world are researching for a vaccine.””

How much more evidence gives credence to the lab theory rather than geopolitical “arguments”? Much? Or Zilch. You tell me…

Athaic also asked whether provaxx dissenting voices are still censured at my usual hangout joints; I believe she is referring to AoA. Athaic, I believe AoA allows all dissenting provaxx opinions on their site. If provaxxers are getting blocked that is likely because they are acting as obnoxious, insulting trolls who are just there to derail conversations rather than offering anything constructive. I believe we can both agree that such conducts are not in keeping with good-faith discussions.

@ Greg

“I believe we can both agree that such conducts are not in keeping with good-faith discussions.”

Hmmmmhhh… No.

It’s too easy to claim persecution when using fallacious appeals to courtesy to legitimise closing doors for discussion. We see that precisely everywhere: intellectual protectionism.

I endorse the idea of people kicking out strangers on some discussions boards some time, so that things do not derail. I do not endorse kicking out people one disagrees with systematically. It’s way too convenient. And it happens almost everywhere.

Which is why Respectful Insolence is such a Boon. There are a few other such places on the Net. But most of the Net has since become a constellation of echo chambers. It has since become a duty to teach people that being contradicted is something good for them. And a duty to teach people how to bash the teeth out of arrogant contradictors.

I miss UseNet.

But I welcome Net Brutality.

Setting aside the issue of whether Covid was an accidental lab release — you would have to be an absolute idiot to believe it wasn’t!– why did the Government not go with that Norwegian scientist’s proposal to use non-human like synthetic antigens to neutralize the virus? Why role the dice on experimental mRNA with its potential for autoimmune adverse effects?!

Here is a recent published study that seems to be addressing the issue of neutralizing antibodies from Moderna’s Stage 1 trial — but does it?! Last we remember of that trial, only 8 of the 45 subjects were tested for neutralizing antibodies.

Now they are reporting results for 34 subjects. I am presuming it’s 34 after they exclude 11 subjects from the 250 dosage group. Remember that dangerous side-effects were reported for that group that they decided to go with the lower doses for the 2/3 trial.

So, are we finally getting neutralizing antibodies for all the subjects? I am not sure! The neutralizing results that they are reporting is in reference to ‘pseudo-virus’. Is this neutralizing antibodies specific to their MRNA concoction and not for the precise Covid virus?

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2032195?query=RP

Why do you think that COVID 19 is a lab leak ? There are lots of zoonosis around there.
Why do you think that mRNA vaccines are more prone to cause autoimmune reactions ?
You forget that there was phase iii trial, which showed that vaccine was 95% effective, This, of course, happened after phase i tiral.

Why do you think that mRNA vaccines are more prone to cause autoimmune reactions ?

From what I have worked out here with limited help from you guys, it seems these vaccines are doing a terrible job at neutralizing the virus, allowing it to hang around, and which invariably will lead to crap happening.

Greg: “So, are we finally getting neutralizing antibodies for all the subjects? I am not sure! The neutralizing results that they are reporting is in reference to ‘pseudo-virus’. Is this neutralizing antibodies specific to their MRNA concoction and not for the precise Covid virus?”

Their “mRNA concoction” causes production of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein which induces neutralizing antibody formation. As the link you provided shows, the vaccine appears to do a better job of that than “natural” infection.

“At day 119, the binding and neutralizing GMTs (in the vaccinated group) exceeded the median (geometric mean titers) in a panel of 41 controls who were convalescing from Covid-19, with a median of 34 days since diagnosis (range, 23 to 54). No serious adverse events were noted in the trial, no prespecified trial-halting rules were met, and no new adverse events that were considered by the investigators to be related to the vaccine occurred after day 57.”

I realize that as an antivaxer you are profoundly depressed by this encouraging news.

Their “mRNA concoction” causes production of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein which induces neutralizing antibody formation. As the link you provided shows, the vaccine appears to do a better job of that than “natural” infection.

And indeed, Dangerous One, I have taken to the dance-floor on this issue and have beckoned so many of you here to join me. Again, is it fair to say that, overall, the prevailing evidence seems to be indicating that mRNA vaccination is doing a better job at neutralizing the virus than natural infection — Dangerous One, Aarno, Squirrel, Athaic, Narad, Orac, Anyone?!

@ Greg

“you would have to be an absolute idiot to believe it wasn’t!”

You’d need to be an absolute to believe it would in any way matter.

You’d be an absolute idiot, if you were an Indian official, not to scrutinize the double-talk of Chinese authorities on may geopolitical matters, their influence at the WHO included.

Do you have a job in the Indian government?

Do you have a job in the Indian government?

You seem to have missed the part where he denied being Canadian.

I don’t know what he’s doing here now, as I don’t follow SBM’s commentariat, but perhaps he wound up properly being completely ignored.

Shit, man, I’d take Philip Hills over this any day.

You seem to have missed the part where he denied being Canadian.

Why are you always stressing about which country I am from? What do you have against Canadians anyway? Should any of that matter to these deep scientific discussions?!

@ Greg

“What do you have against Canadians anyway?”

Canadians? Well… let’s see… perhaps Trudeau is portraying himself as the epitome of human rights while catering a bit too much to the interests of some minorities within Canada. My 2 cents.

Why are you always stressing about which country I am from?

Because of the hilarity of your strenuously denying it, including bungled attempts to feign U.S. spelling. You’re a pathetic sack of shit, Gerg, and you know it. The ample demonstrations are unnecessary — the core of your being is neither more nor less than wretchedness.

You’re a pathetic sack of shit, Gerg, and you know it. The ample demonstrations are unnecessary — the core of your being is neither more nor less than wretchednes

Well, not sure how how to respond to all that. Perhaps a simple childish retort will suffice: Narad, I am rubber and you’re glue; whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you; nah nanna nah naah!!

Really?? I remember that taunt. While our kindergarten compatiriots were recanting it, me and mine were using flint chips off my miner uncle’s gift to slit ourselves to join the club. We were also eating spinach to be able to tear down power lines and discovered that the b/w popeye method didn’t do shit but that mechanical resonance sure did — we are all still fugitives to this day {sorry, Polaski Pike}.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but words have lasting meaning.

“Sin Hang Lee seems to have moved on to Chronic Lyme as his main scam.”

But what about Lee’s super-healthy green tea?

http://tea-for-health.com

I’m especially interested in his line of tea steepers with lids to keep out oxygen, which would otherwise degrade the tea’s antioxidant capacity.

@ Smut Clyde

Thanks for your work on Christian Perronne. Very important IMO. Not sure how the Chronic Lyme mystification played a part in the sanction that ultimately made him step down, but, yeah, the French public is completely clueless about the ramifications of Perronne’s stance.

The narrative that he is a persecuted scientist that opposes the State seems to me to be dominant in the minds of people. We do need articles like yours to shed some light on the man.

Seems like the media are starting to realize that they keep inviting people on TV merely because they have a title and look good. Not because they are experts. It’s a start… Not enough to make some sparks in their minds, but it’s a start…

But lay people are really thinking that they should support Christian Perronne to overthrow Macron. It’s bonkers. I think it’s one of the unhealthy aspects of having a medical system hierarchically tied to the State: medical power dynamics are recast in the mind of lay people as partisan politics. Not good: cranks can play on these sentiments, and Raoult has played that part with maestria.

Clinical trials have shown that vaccines strongly suppress virus fertility. They’d be protesting in the streets if they only had feet to get there and arms to wave placards.

Has any vaccine ever been studies in relation to fertility?

This is a pretty vaguely phrased question. To cut to the chase, there are no vaccines that are in FDA Pregnancy Category A. Then again, not much is else is otherwise, and the whole system was supposed to be scrapped, but it seems that it may still be skulking around.

Found this paper:
Schmuhl NB, Mooney KE, Zhang X, Cooney LG, Conway JH, LoConte NK. No association between HPV vaccination and infertility in U.S. females 18-33 years old. Vaccine. 2020 May 19;38(24):4038-4043. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2020.03.035. Epub 2020 Apr 3. PMID: 32253100; PMCID: PMC7255493.

Honestly, if the Covid vaccine did affect fertility, I don’t think it’d make a lot of difference. Most people can’t afford babies anyway, and a lot of mothers lost their jobs anyway, and more ‘staying home with the kids’ would be the last thing they’d want.

The rampant infertility is astronomically shooting up the price of unwanted babies for the whole economy. Have you seen the price of Wayfair recently? Infertile jobless women who can no longer have babies to push will have to go back to hawking plastic containers, candles, carnal favors, and meth.

I had never heard of Mayfair, but as I am now indulging television on and off, given that the thing’s here and mildly calming when I can’t take much more, I just saw one. More disturbing is the unrelenting stream of ads for products intended for women to do unnatural things to their eyebrows.

I mean, I deal with unruliness, but this this is over the top.

If they are buying fit for purpose gadgets then that is gobs better than plucking themselves bald and drawing them back on. Trust me.

Some of the Q people claim to believe that Wayfair is so costly because they contain the trafficked children. A typical member of this faction is the guy with the two trump flags in front of the yellow trailer with the peeling vinyl siding. Though he’s always raving about how great the stock market is doing, he has yet to cough up the funds to order one and see for himself.

Nonetheless, I’m sure some agency or other is keeping an eye on it just in case {that is way too many chests for a 3 bm 2 1/2 bath spec home in Meadow Brook… planning shows they recently installed a storm shelter. Flag that one, Bob}.

“about”: sb fixxin;’ as in the very near term. What do I know? We may all welcome a hot lead injection sometime in the as-yet to-be-determined future.

Published yesterday. Yeadon is still at it. Dropping it here so I can find it again. Speaking (of course) to “American’s Frontline Doctors”

America’s Frontline Doctors (AFLDS) spoke to former Pfizer Vice President and Chief Science Officer Dr. Mike Yeadon about his views on the COVID-19 vaccine, hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin, the regulatory authorities, and more.

At the outset, Dr. Yeadon said “I’m well aware of the global crimes against humanity being perpetrated against a large proportion of the worlds population.

“I feel great fear, but I’m not deterred from giving expert testimony to multiple groups of able lawyers like Rocco Galati in Canada and Reiner Fuellmich in Germany.

“I have absolutely no doubt that we are in the presence of evil (not a determination I’ve ever made before in a 40-year research career) and dangerous products.

https://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/exclusive-former-pfizer-vp-to-aflds-entirely-possible-this-will-be-used-for-massive-scale-depopulation/?fbclid=IwAR2w0C9hFIqqUDthnvrsK0LgUENnn_CtLa_XsKIqTWOj__jaZqnrzIkptE4

[…] We know that the mRNA doesn’t last very long, so we wouldn’t be able to continuously make spike proteins. We know what’s in the COVID-19 vaccines, including the code of the mRNA in the vaccines, and that the vaccines aren’t altering our DNA. We also know that other proteins in the body likely aren’t being targeted after you are vaccinated and these vaccines aren’t causing infertility. […]

[…] Although I never wrote about this particular survey, I did see it when it first started to circulate last month. It’s a web-based survey being done by an anthropologist, with no involvement of medical scientists or physicians who are experts in women’s reproductive health. I predicted at the time that it would be positive, thanks to recall bias and no control group, and so it appears to have been. The best thing you can say about the survey is that it might be hypothesis-generating regarding whether COVID-19 vaccination has any detectable, reproducible effects on menstruation and pregnancy. The worst that can be said about it is that it’s scientifically worthless and will do nothing more than help spread misinformation based on earlier unproven and likely false claims that the COVID-19 vaccines cause miscarriages and even infertility. […]

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