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Antivaxxers, COVID-19 vaccines, and “fetal cells”: Everything old is new again

Antivaxxers are raising the specter of “fetal cells” being used in COVID-19 vaccines. In the age of the pandemic, everything old is new again!

Somehow, some way, my ambitious plans for finishing out the week before Christmas with a catalogue of appropriate “insolence” directed at pseudoscience have come to naught, and I find myself on Christmas Eve morning with only one post this week, and even that was a repackaged post from my not-so-super-secret other blog. I suppose I could blame the COVID-19 vaccine the first dose of which I was fortunate enough to receive last Friday. A side effect inhibits blogging! I imagine that, were that actually true, it would pose a conundrum to antivaxxers who spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt about vaccines confronting the possibility that a vaccine might shut Orac up for a while. Be that as it may, if there’s one thing I’ve noticed about COVID-19 and the race to develop vaccines against SARS-CoV-2, the nasty coronavirus responsible for our current pandemic, it’s that every old antivax trope is new again, up to and including the claim that the COVID-19 vaccine will render our women infertile, as I wrote about a few days ago. This brings me to the latest, namely the blatantly obvious attempt to pander to religious fundamentalists by trying to link COVID-19 vaccines to abortion, specifically by claiming that “fetal cells” or “fetal tissue” is inextricably linked to their manufacture. Truly, in terms of antivaccine disinformation and propaganda, in the age of COVID-19 and with the vaccines rolling out, everything old is new again.

Before I get to COVID-19 vaccines, let me just point out what I mean when I say that “everything old is new again” in reference to the claim that COVID-19 vaccines are so horribly tainted by abortion. Regular readers know that antivaxxers have long demonized certain vaccines because human cell lines that originated from aborted fetuses nearly 60 years ago are used to grow up the virus stock used to make the vaccines. Vaccines manufactured using such cell lines (WI-38 or MRC-5, for example) have saved millions of lives and prevented billions of cases of disease. Even so, demonizing vaccines that currently require such cells for their manufacture is such a common antivax trope that I even have tags for it, including fetal cell lines, aborted fetal tissue, and (of course) fetal DNA, that last one because one of the most persistent claims among antivaxxers is that vaccines are contaminated with fetal DNA. That last one is particularly persistent, thanks to biochemist turned antivaccine propagandist Theresa Deisher. If you believe Deisher and antivaxxers, that fetal DNA is so magic that truly minuscule amounts of short fragments of fetal DNA can not only somehow pass through the blood-brain barrier but then also get into neurons and express “non-self” proteins that are then somehow recognized by the immune system to produce “autoimmunity” leading to—you guessed it!—autism. Never mind that the speculative contortions of science needed to make such claims, which can sound plausible to the scientifically ignorant and unsophisticated but, are laughed at by anyone who’s ever worked with DNA in a research lab. (If you have molecular biology knowledge and want a laugh, just search for “recombinaltion tiniker” on this blog, or even just Google the misspelled term.) It’s such a common antivax trope, that antivaxxers have even duped state legislatures to try to pass bills mandating “informed consent” about vaccines manufactured using these cell lines. It’s all part of a very transparent effort by antivaxxers to use religion to demonize vaccines, an effort that’s included trying to convince Jews and Muslims that vaccines containing gelatin are unclean.

Unsurprisingly, the same sort of nonsense is now being peddled about the two COVID-19 vaccines that have just been made available by emergency use authorizations issued by the FDA, the vaccine by Pfizer-BioNTech and the one by Moderna. Of course, when I learned this, I wondered: How could this be? Both of these vaccines are RNA vaccines, which use a messenger RNA (mRNA) packaged in lipid nanoparticles to allow entry into cells to induce cells to make the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. (More on that later.)

First, this campaign began before the vaccines were anywhere near ready to be manufactured and rolled out, when researchers were being urged in June not to use fetal cell lines to develop COVID-19 vaccines:

Senior Catholic leaders in the United States and Canada, along with other antiabortion groups, are raising ethical objections to promising COVID-19 vaccine candidates that are manufactured using cells derived from human fetuses electively aborted decades ago. They have not sought to block government funding for the vaccines, which include two candidate vaccines that the Trump administration plans to support with an investment of up to $1.7 billion, as well as a third candidate made by a Chinese company in collaboration with Canada’s National Research Council (NRC). But they are urging funders and policymakers to ensure that companies develop other vaccines that do not rely on such human fetal cell lines and, in the United States, asking the government to “incentivize” firms to only make vaccines that don’t rely on fetal cells.

“It is critically important that Americans have access to a vaccine that is produced ethically: no American should be forced to choose between being vaccinated against this potentially deadly virus and violating his or her conscience,” members of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops and 20 other religious, medical, and political organizations that oppose abortion wrote to Stephen Hahn, commissioner of the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA), in April. “Thankfully, other [COVID-19] vaccines … utilize cell lines not connected to unethical procedures and methods.”

The article went on to note that the vaccine candidates by University of Oxford/AstraZenica, Janssen Research and Development, University of Pittsburgh, ImmunityBio/NantKwest, and CanSino Biologics, Inc./Beijing Institute of Biotechnology had used HEK-293 or PER.C6 cell lines in their development, which had led anti-abortion activists to give aid to antivaxxers:

David Prentice, vice president and research director at the Charlotte Lozier Institute, which opposes abortion, notes researchers making adenovirus vaccines have modified HEK-293 cells to be adept at packaging new genes—such as those that direct cells to assemble the coronavirus spike protein—into adenoviruses. But he adds that other technologies are available, including using cells captured from amniocentesis that are engineered to make replication-deficient adenoviruses.

“The use of cells from electively aborted fetuses for vaccine production makes these five COVID-19 vaccine programs unethical, because they exploit the innocent human beings who were aborted,” Prentice and a co-author—molecular biologist James Sherley, a Lozier Institute associate scholar and director of the adult stem cell company Asymmetrex—wrote in a position paper published last month.

Interestingly, even the Charlotte Lozier Institute, which has led the way in demonizing vaccines that use cell lines derived from human fetuses listed the Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech RNA vaccines as “ethically uncontroversial.” One interesting thing I discovered is that the demonization of the Moderna candidate was based on disinformation:

The supposed connection to aborted fetal cell lines in patents does not cite the correct Moderna patent related to its vaccines, and the cites in the incorrect patent are to research concept examples unrelated to the actual vaccine production.  Some Moderna collaborators (NIAID/UT) did use abortion-derived HEK293 cells to produce viral spike protein to test its shape and antibody binding, but their test did not determine the design or production of the nucleic acid sequence, and in fact was done only after Moderna had already determined the genetic sequence needed, developed their mRNA sequence vaccine, and begun production of the mRNA vaccine.  Moderna is not producing a spike protein for its vaccine, nor does it use cell lines (aborted fetal cell or otherwise) in the production of this mRNA vaccine.  Moderna’s vaccine is mRNA (instructions) that tells the body how to produce its own spike protein. Bottom line, Moderna vaccine production does not utilize aborted fetal cells and its design did not rely upon aborted fetal cells.

Neither does the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines. Indeed, one of the huge advantages of RNA-based vaccines is that you don’t need a whole bunch of cells to grow up a whole bunch of virus as a source of protein antigen to use in the vaccine. RNA can be synthesized, along with all the other components of the vaccine. Meanwhile, the Catholic Church is saying that the use of COVID-19 cell lines is morally acceptable if there are no other alternatives:

The Vatican concluded that “it is morally acceptable to receive COVID-19 vaccines that have used cell lines from aborted fetuses” in the research and production process when “ethically irreproachable” vaccines aren’t available to the public. But it stressed that the “licit” uses of such vaccines “does not and should not in any way imply that there is a moral endorsement of the use of cell lines proceeding from aborted fetuses.”

The Vatican didn’t name any of the COVID-19 vaccines already being given to people in some countries or authorized to be used soon. 

In its statement, the Vatican explained that obtaining vaccines that do not pose an ethical dilemma is not always possible. It cited circumstances in countries “where vaccines without ethical problems are not made available to physicians and patients” or where special storage or transport conditions make their distribution more difficult.

This is, as I’ve noted before, no different than the position that the Catholic Church has always taken about vaccines that use cell lines derived from aborted fetuses in their manufacture. Basically, as I’ve described before many times, the Vatican has long recognized that the extreme good of protecting children’s lives from deadly diseases far outweighs the distant evil (in the view of the Catholic Church) that created the cell lines. In the case of RNA vaccines, that connection is even more tenuous. The bottom line is that the ranting about “fetal parts” and “fetal cells” in COVID-19 vaccines is, at least right now, even more disconnected from reality than previous ranting. True, as some of the more “problematic” cell lines begin to be approved, antivaxxers will raise this zombie issue again. The obvious response is: If you don’t like those vaccines because you view them as hopelessly “contaminated” with the “evil” of abortion, then take the Moderna or Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine! Neither are “contaminated” this way (nor will they scramble your DNA).

RNA vaccines are a truly huge advance in vaccine manufacturing because they allow much more rapid development of vaccines and eliminate a lot of messy issues with manufacturing. (Seriously, eggs are still used to manufacture some vaccines.) In theory, a new vaccine could be developed just by inserting a different mRNA into the same lipid nanoparticles used for the COVID-19 vaccines, without the need to start at the beginning for approval, given that the lipid nanoparticles have already been tested. One other advantages is that such vaccines shut down the attempts of antivaxxers to co-opt the opposition of some religions to abortion in the service of their propaganda.

Happy holidays, all, and Orac will return sometime next week.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

217 replies on “Antivaxxers, COVID-19 vaccines, and “fetal cells”: Everything old is new again”

In theory, a new vaccine could be developed just by inserting a different mRNA into the same lipid nanoparticles used for the COVID-19 vaccines, without the need to start at the beginning for approval, given that the lipid nanoparticles have already been tested.

I recall hearing/reading an interview with a Moderna/Pfizer voice a day or two ago that the time frame would be about six weeks to roll out a vaccine for lineage B.1.1.7 if necessary.

I heard the same.

Also, that mutation is always a concern when vaccines are developed and the new vaccines should “cover” some changes now.
Further, there have been speculations that MMR – because of the R- might be somewhat protective against Covid .because of some similarity of the two viruses.
If you recall, H1N1 affected younger people more because they weren’t around during its previous appearance: older people already had some immunity.

But anti-vaxxers will find something to carp about even if it actually works against their point..

This is somewhat of a problem for our vaccine – it needs to sneak past our immune system. Over many years of experimentation, it was found that if the U in RNA is replaced by a slightly modified molecule, our immune system loses interest. For real.

So in the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine, every U has been replaced by 1-methyl-3’-pseudouridylyl, denoted by Ψ. The really clever bit is that although this replacement Ψ placates (calms) our immune system, it is accepted as a normal U by relevant parts of the cell.

In computer security we also know this trick – it sometimes is possible to transmit a slightly corrupted version of a message that confuses firewalls and security solutions, but that is still accepted by the backend servers – which can then get hacked.

ps://berthub.eu/articles/posts/reverse-engineering-source-code-of-the-biontech-pfizer-vaccine/

They are hacking us — not real humans, but just a collection of cells under trench coats.

Though, I do wonder about that proprietary string… AAAAAAArgAAAAA…

Could it be a Zero-zero-zero-Destruct-zero scenario?? And just waiting for that particular 5G rat-rat-ratttatatat-rat-rat to implement??

Inquiring minds want to know.

Happy holidays, and here’s the rude parody of “A visit from St. Nicholas”. You have to imagine that it’s at the end of a long Christmas Eve, and Santa is tired and stressed out, with a stomach overfilled with brandy and cookies.
‘Twas the night before Christmas, and all through the House,
Everyone felt shitty, even the mouse.
Mum at the brothel, Dad smoking Grass,
I’d just settled down with a nice piece of arse,
when all through the window there came such a clatter,
I sprang from my lay to see what was the matter.
Then out on the lawn I saw a huge prick.
I knew right away it must be St. Nick.
He came down our chimney like a bat out of Hell.
I knew in an instant the fucker had fell.
He stuffed all our stockings with whiskey and beer,
and a pink plastic dildo for my brother the queer.
He rose up the chimney with a thunderous fart.
The son of a bitch blew our fireplace apart!
He cursed and he swore as he went on his way,
“Piss on you all! It’s been a hell of a day!”

Thanks for this article on the disinfo being promoted, once again, by the anti-vaccine industry – an industry dependent on lies for its existence.
.
On the subject of aborted fetal tissue:
There is no moral reason to not use fetal cells for medical development even if one is opposed to abortion.
To say so is the equivalent to saying that the eyes or liver or kidneys or any other organ from a murder victim with an organ donor card is somehow tainted by the evil essence of the sin inflicted on that victim. It is a logical and moral error used by biased anti-vaccine liars with an agenda. The organs and cells of a victim of a sin do not contain the essence of that sin perpetrated upon them. Fetal cells are completely innocent of any stain of sin and their use or presence is equally innocent.
As the Catholic church has stated – It is the act of abortion to harvest the cells that is the sin, not the cells themselves… The act.
If the use of the cells is evil then, in like manner, the eyes, liver, kidneys, etc. of a murder victim cannot be used for transplantation to save another person because they have somehow inherited the stain of the sin inflicted upon the person they came from.
That illogical idea is, obviously, complete idiocy.
.
The murder of the person is sinful. The physical body of the victim is completely innocent and may be used for any non-sinful purpose.
I’d like to hear these “religious” anti-vaccine ghouls explain how the cells or the use of the cells of a victim are sinful.
It is sinful to murderously promote not using them to save the lives of other innocent people.
.
The anti-vaxers are sleazy ghouls who are willing to kill children for their delusional anti-science agenda.
They are a death cult.

The organs and cells of a victim of a sin do not contain the essence of that sin perpetrated upon them.

Just because I’m avoiding some more stressful tasks, I’ll ask whether you’re sure that, within Catholicism, sin can be considered concrete enough to have essence?

I don’t know. That was the best I could come up with to convey the transfer of the stain of sin into a victim’s cells. It may be considered a “quality” rather than an “essence” but I am not a theologian nor a philosopher.
My understanding is “essence” is the sum total of all the qualities that make a thing a thing disregarding the physical “form” (world). It is the ‘spirit’ of a thing.
.
In any event it is clearly impossible for fetal cells to contain theological evil which is why the CC has not condemned them… they are innocent.
.
Have fun.

Two things.
A. An interesting fact about the use of cell lines is that one of the diseases routine vaccines made with them prevent is rubella, which harms the unborn. So even in terms of the unborn alone, these vaccines save, don’t harm.

B. I think there is a point to ask that where possible, alternatives be provided for people for whom this is an issue, and if it’s easy to avoid other things be used. There is a significant portion of the population for whom this can create questions, and I hear from friends who are pro life vaccines advocates that this claim has been used to create doubts in people who are provaccine.

If we know something is an issue, rightly or wrongly, and we know that we need high rates of herd immunity, and there are easily available alternatives, why create an issue?

Note that I’m referring to the point where choices are made for new vaccines, not to the past. If we can avoid giving the antivaccine movement ammunition, we should.

I think there is a point to ask that where possible, alternatives be provided for people for whom this is an issue

Unquestionably.

Does anyone think that in 2020, there is a new level of desperation amongst anti-vaxxers/ woo-meisters that pushes them to create even more spectacularly wrong misinformation?
— more people are thinking about vaccines because of the pandemic
— they have less access to new followers because of restrictions from social media/ MSM
— because of shutdowns and increased unemployment, followers may buy less products and contribute less to charities sponsored by anti-vax/ woo
— they hope to recruit new advocates because of an environment of general fear
— with more focus on public health, governmental bodies and industry, they have more opportunities to stir up doubts about them- baseless or not.

Does anyone think that in 2020, there is a new level of desperation amongst anti-vaxxers/ woo-meisters that pushes them to create even more spectacularly wrong misinformation?

I just noticed that Jake has crawled into a hole.

Right.
I wonder if he worked for the Donald again as he had in 2016, rounding up voters ( possibly for pay- I’m not sure)? Also no Epoch Times “employment. His linked in account is no longer free..;

-btw- you are hilarious ( other thread)

@ Narad

“I just noticed that Jake has crawled into a hole.”

I’m nonetheless not very happy when I see people going into self-imposed oblivion. Feels a bit too much like home.

I think that one of the issues that is concerning the anti-vaxxers is the pandemic and so many governments looking to vaccines as the solution. There seems to be a sense that any gains they may have made in legitimacy are slipping away.

Even short alphabetic sequences need a holiday break so am dropping this atrocity on you before I run off. Parts of the doggerel were inspired by the current article.

‘Twas the night before Vaxxmas, when all through the dwellin’
Not a creature was stirring, nor any pangolin;
The syringes were hung by the chimney with care,
In hopes that St. Vaccine soon would be there;

The vulnerable were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of mRNA danced in their heads;
With mamma in isolation, and I in my mask,
I’d just settled down, in the firelight to bask.

When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the couch to see what was the matter.
Sped across the room, just like a tornado,
Tore open the curtains and stared out the window.

The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
Gave the luster of mid-day to objects below,
To my wondering eyes did appear with a shock,
A miniature sleigh, bar fridge, and eight tiny docs,

With a little old driver, as sharp as an ax,
I knew in a moment it must be St. Vaxx.
More rapid than FedEx his coursers they came,
And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name;

“Now, PFIZER! now, OXFORD! now, TEDROS and WELBY!
On, DORIT! on ORAC! on, OFFIT and FAUCI!
To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
Now dash away! dash away! dash away all!”

As shrewd politicians before the pandemic flee,
When they clash with reality, turn to Fox TV,
So up to the house-top the doctors they flew,
With the fridge full of vials, and St. Vaccine too.

And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the flue
The prancing and pawing of each little shoe.
As I stepped from the window, and was turning around,
Down the chimney St. Vaccine came with a bound.

He was dressed in PPE, from his cap to his sneakers
And pasted all over with happy face stickers;
A bundle of vials he had stuffed in his pocket,
And he looked like an exec on a corporate junket.

He was chubby and ruddy, a right jolly old doc,
And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of my shock;
A twist of his head, and wink of his eye,
He glanced at the mirror and straightened his tie;

He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
And filled all the syringes; with a knowing smirk.
Cells of the naughty, was a part of the dose,
And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose;

He sprang to his sleigh, programmed the GPS,
And away they all flew, to relieve more distress.
But I heard him exclaim, ere he flew out of sight,
HAPPY VAXXMAS TO ALL, AND TO ALL A GOOD-NIGHT!

Well, I got coal. Again. I guess with a little anaerobic pyrolysis under steam it can become methanol which will fit into the syringes. It also contained taggants {and I don’t blame him one bit} so I get to microchip myself with it afterall. I hear that methanol is all the rage in the middle east for treatment of the novel coronavirus; ethanol is a remedy to that so I’m good to go.

It’s time for me to suspend responses to antivax woo for the holidays.

Much thought was given to posting an appropriate Xmas song to honor RI’ers. I considered “Christmas With The Devil” by Spinal Tap, “Christmas At Ground Zero” (Weird Al) and that old-time classic, “Christmas In Jail” (The Youngsters) but rejected them as a bit too downer-ish, even in such a dark and desolate year as 2020.

Here’s my offering, in a lighter vein.

Christmas in the England the Puritans were escaping was essentially a drunken riot.

Here’s how it generally went down, according to Stephen Nissenbaum in his book “The Battle for Christmas.” On Christmas Day, the lower classes would dress up in strange costumes to “invert” their roles: Men would dress up as women, young boys as bishops, and the lowliest peasant or the town drunk might be declared the “Lord of Misrule.”

They would gather into a mob and go around to the houses and estates of the well-to-do, making a racket, singing bawdy songs and demanding entry. Amazingly, most of the time they were let in and given alcohol, food and even money. There was gambling and promiscuity (often leading to marriages at the end of the misrule). Once the mob was satisfied, it would move on to the next rich person’s estate.

These mobs would generally roam until Epiphany – Jan. 6 – hence, “the twelve days of Christmas.”

https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/article/There-really-was-a-war-on-Christmas-Mr-15824044.php

feeling cute, might watch distanced people bust a lick on Overstock later 🤠

Any Christmas in England is essentially a drunken riot. Fuck it, a Saturday night will do if there isn’t a Christmas available. In fact I can tell that most people are sticking to a more strict isolation than the current coronavirus rules require by the total lack of police sirens over the last three nights.

The inversion and misrule element comes from the Roman Saturnalia. Or possibly even further back than that.

Another Xmas carol:

Fetal cells, fetal cells
It’s vaccine time in the city
AoA, hear them bray
Soon it won’t be Covid’s day

Science misconduct, the gift that keeps giving the whole year long, to kind of quote cousin eddy.

51% of scientist were aware of colleagues scientific misconduct. I get the motivation of these researchers (the KGB had a term on how EVERYONE thinks and is motivated its called , MISE (pronounced “mice”) M = money, I = idelogy . S = sex, E = ego , but not many people on this blog speak of the real damage these scientist do, you give ammunition to your opponents when you don’t or shout them down as science deiners or they are not following the science. Seems you would rather go after soft/easy targets AKA: low hanging fruit.

And if a peer reviewed paper that is published and has “issues” that cause it to be retracted, other papers that citied the paper that was retracted should also be retracted. in legal terms its called the “fruit fo the poisonious tree”. and leads to dismissal of the case in question but other cases that use the same evidence or similiar evidence collection methoids will be dismissed.

“Publish or be ethical? Publishing pressure and scientific misconduct in research.”

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1747016120980562

in legal terms its called the “fruit fo the poisonious tree”. and leads to dismissal of the case in question but other cases that use the same evidence or similiar evidence collection methoids will be dismissed.

You just can’t make this shit up. It’s barely at the developmental level of Lincoln Logs.

The rule of the “fruits of the poisonous tree” has been a legal rule since 1920 (well at least the US which explains why you are not familiar with it) which says that materials illegally/fraudlently obtained and the subsequent followup evidence obtained is not admissable in court. If a search warrant or a confession is illegally obtain all materials or investigation obtain as a result of the illegal warrant or confession or fraudlently obtain is inadmissable in court. This also applies to most civil courts as well.
Thus a research paper that is based on fraud or a research who uses another researchers paper that was based on fraud, should have the paper retracted at the very least and could open themselfs to civil litigation for any number of resulting acts.
As lawyers run out of easy targets in other professions, the research community is soon to be next in line.

Please use a search engine, as this “shit” is available on line, for free.

would explain more but am waiting for my flight to the north shore, waves are said to be great, and the boards in the hole.

“Mahalo”

You do realize that what you actually wrote is still there, right?

in legal terms its called the “fruit fo the poisonious tree”. and leads to dismissal of the case in question

I know what the f*cking exclusionary rule is, halfwit.

Thus a research paper that is based on fraud or a research who uses another researchers paper that was based on fraud, should have the paper retracted at the very least and could open themselfs to civil litigation for any number of resulting acts.
As lawyers run out of easy targets in other professions, the research community is soon to be next in line.

Should we (tinw) tell him about R—on W—ch?

as to your “research” I read the citations

Attaboy, skip over that pesky content.

it has numerous cites of “insta-gram”, and those are considered reliable sources by you, like Twitter or Facebook ?

Let’s see… if one were to, say, wish to catalog and analyze social-media activity, how would you suggest that one, y’know, actually document what you want to discuss?

Science misconduct, the gift that keeps giving the whole year long, to kind of quote cousin eddy.

Speaking of Shaw and Tomljenovic…

‘Nonards” can we apply “Skitt’s Law” to my post or at least “Hartman’s Law”

And maybe you should see some kind of doctor who can prescribe some meds to calm yourself down. I really fear for you safety, you know like getting your blood pressure meds re-adjusted or how about stepping away from the keyboard for a few days for some much needed “time away” might be useful, 7 mile is really really great.

After reading your link, and all the conspiracy theories mentioned in the link (I mean talk about the JFK assination or the 9/11 truthers, from that site you would think the anti vaxxers were going to take over the world in the next 10 days), I am starting to think that all the people who suggested that I have tin foil on my head would be better suited to talk about yours.

“Shaka”

@ scott allen

“I really fear for you safety”

Bullshit.

I’d just wish we’d lock up people making bogus claims of “fearing for the safety” of others.

These people are scumbags.

To F68.10

“Bullshit.
I’d just wish we’d lock up people making bogus claims of “fearing for the safety” of others.
These people are scumbags.”

You have failed to notice that for 11 months we have been told by experts to wear “the damn mask”, socially isolate, shut down businesses (you know quit have any kind of fun or social activities,

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12356029/university-georiga-students-wear-coronavirus-masks-sex/)

…… becaue of they are concerned for our safety.

As I have said before do I really need to write sarcasim/irony tag every fricken time.

In other news.
“In 2018, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center’s chief medical officer, Dr. José Baselga, resigned under fire over his failure to disclose payments from health care companies in dozens of research articles he wrote.”
‘Now, recent Internal Revenue Service filings show the nonprofit hospital paid more than $1.5 million in severance to Baselga in 2018 and 2019.’
“Baselga now is an executive at the pharmaceutical company AstraZeneca”.

And people here post about hawkers of “natural medicines” making big money selling vitamins.

https://www.propublica.org/article/memorial-sloan-kettering-jose-baselga-severance-package

To Nonards and now F68.10 the last item was irony.

@ scott allen

“You have failed to notice that for 11 months we have been told by experts to wear “the damn mask”, socially isolate, shut down businesses (you know quit have any kind of fun or social activities,…”

Poor you!

I ask for solitary confinement for jerks like you. Just to give you a feel of what’s it like to really care for someone else.

As I have said before do I really need to write sarcasim/irony tag every fricken time.

You mean your vague, all-purpose “defense”? No, especially given that you can’t even spell the former and are apparently at the level of Alanis Morrissette on the latter.

Perhaps you could compare and contrast Socrates and Confucius on the rectification of names for the benefit of the commentariat.

After reading your link

Uh-huh.

and all the conspiracy theories mentioned in the link (I mean talk about the JFK assination or the 9/11 truthers

Why?

from that site you would think the anti vaxxers were going to take over the world in the next 10 days)

Do you have any factual dispute regarding the content observed at Babs’s confab?

I am starting to think that all the people who suggested that I have tin foil on my head would be better suited to talk about yours.

I missed any mention of tinfoil (I generally recommend a colander instead), but you can always write a crank letter to WaPo.

I was shocked upon learning that nothing Morrissette descanted out was ironic. I think “unfortunate” is a better word.

F68.10
“I ask for solitary confinement for jerks like you. Just to give you a feel of what’s it like to really care for someone else.”

Obviously you haven’t availed yourself of the search engine located at the top to this page. You would have found links to other sites on the terrible effect/affect of our desire to over protect everyone from Covid.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S027795361400269X

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2772834

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(20)30229-1/fulltext

https://allafrica.com/stories/202010300121.html

https://time.com/5864803/oxfam-hunger-covid-19/

https://www.news.com.au/technology/world-could-face-hunger-pandemic-in-2021-world-food-programe-warns/news-story/f314d1447fb33c3375bad2cf0f6bbc09

over the past 8 months I have posted articles and peer reviewed research which shows just how devastating the “lock downs” are

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/health/research/09sick.html?_r=0

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/economic-downturn-excess-cancer-deaths-atun/

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12168579/coronavirus-lockdown-could-kill-200000-people-report/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8856959/Lockdowns-lethal-toll-NHS-vulnerable-patients-laid-bare.html

Our site host should be able to tells us how many people are not getting timely treatments or are being turned away from elective (but life needed) surgeries because of a hyped fear of Covid. We are bombarded every day with the death toll, now over 320,000 in 11 months, well guess what this year over 2,700,000 people died from something else.

When I pointed out that in week 50, of the year (week 10 of a 20 week flu season) only 666 people caught the good old regular flu, and that this was about 5,000,000 less than in a normal year and by this time last year over 5,000 would have died from the flu and this year we have had NO deaths from the flu. You would have thought that GOD his/her self would open the heavens to smite me.

“I really think it was more the Flying Bonobo Squad’s trying very incompetently to start a land war in Asia.
you have the choice of being pointed and laughed at, or told to fuck off all the way home to Fuckoffsville and die in a fire.
Just how STUPID are you?
And is storing every byte, nibble, and bit of a person’s past in perpetuity to be used against them in the future something you have become enured to?
Of course it it is, you snivelling little rat-faced git”.

I have been accused of wanting to kill people and infect them with covid. Of being an antivaxxer (what antivaxxer has to do with what I posted about starving 3rd world people or worrying about kid’s education is a bit of a stretch). One accused me of being late to the party, because I was copying someone else, on this site’s, work (I had to show them that it was me who posted those things over month ago).

When I posted this, I was labeling Covid as “conspiracy theory” and I was claiming it was a fake virus.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/29/health/coronavirus-testing.html

All of the articles I linked to were from main stream media, Harvard, Science Direct etc.

To “Nonards”

Please get back on your meds your going to stroke out.
I prefer number 10 copper wire screen, it works as an effective Faraday cage, and people think it is a bug screen.

The tenth man rule.

@ scott allen

“Obviously you haven’t availed yourself of the search engine located at the top to this page.”

Lecturing a hedgie on financial risk assessment, are’ya? How charming.

I made, on this very blog, quite a number of comments, a mild one being this one showing that I had more concerns for the economy, and for my Bride in Heaven – a.k.a. Big Business – than quite a number of people around.

But that won’t change your mind of a whiner, determined to be offended. Here’s how people should deal with cockroaches such as you:

And, whenever I use someone instrumentalising psychiatric lingo, such as you did… yes, I advise locking you up. 100%.

Any other question?

to f69.10
the quotes in the middle were the erudite comments of the sensitive and caring crowd here, after I had posted links to research that showed how determental lock downs were to people and would result in more deaths than from the virus.

“I really think it was more the Flying Bonobo Squad’s trying very incompetently to start a land war in Asia.
you have the choice of being pointed and laughed at, or told to fuck off all the way home to Fuckoffsville and die in a fire.
Just how STUPID are you?
And is storing every byte, nibble, and bit of a person’s past in perpetuity to be used against them in the future something you have become enured to?
Of course it it is, you snivelling little rat-faced git”.

(a lot of people who post here have a thing for “fire” maybe closet arsonist, or they are the fire and brimstone preachers of the modern era and sending my soul to the land of eternal fires)

I do feel bad for you as you have so much hostitily in your posts, maybe you should try watching “how the grinch stole christmas”. or maybe brushing up on your manners or reading comprehension.

Our site host should be able to tells us how many people are not getting timely treatments or are being turned away from elective (but life needed) surgeries because of a hyped fear of Covid.

I wish I had my copy of The Wit and Wisdom of Spiro T. Agnew with me.

To Nonards, did f98.60 call you to help him ??

as to your “research” I read the citations, it has numerous cites of “insta-gram”, and those are considered reliable sources by you, like Twitter or Facebook ?

So when you write papers what is date on your oldest citation, by your post you must not put anything that is older than 1 or 2 years.

Those news article in the sun etal have links to the ministers and health professionals and to the reports or interviews .

As for the US.
“toddlers are regressing from achieved developmental milestones such as potty training and the ability to feed themselves.

Almost half of the black-owned small businesses have been wiped out.

70% of adults aged 18-23 report suffering symptoms of depression

Adults aged 25-44 years saw the largest increase in “excess” deaths from previous years, a stunning 26.5% increase, despite accounting for fewer than 3% of deaths from COVID-19.

Suicide and suicide attempts have increased at an alarming rate, including among children.

Education achievement gaps have widened, and early literacy is declining.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/brown-center-chalkboard/2020/05/27/the-impact-of-covid-19-on-student-achievement-and-what-it-may-mean-for-educators/

As of September, 13,200 excess deaths of Alzheimers is due to isolation and rapid decline.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/09/16/coronavirus-dementia-alzheimers-deaths/?arc404=true

So Brookings and the WAPO are not good enough for you or are they too conservative.

so lets continue those lock downs, we should be able to push all those numbers higher, I mean look what lock downs did for California.

spf 20 time, and I have corona

As of September, 13,200 excess deaths of Alzheimers is due to isolation and rapid decline.

“In recent weeks, Goerke has struggled with anger — at U.S. leaders and at people who continue to reject simple measures such as wearing masks. As long as the virus keeps spreading, Goerke knows there’s no way to safely visit his wife.”

Nice own-goal.

@ scott allen

“To Nonards, did f98.60 call you to help him ??”

Yeah. I got a call.

@ Narad

Just who the hell does this guy think he is?

Tim: “I was shocked upon learning that nothing Morrissette descanted out was ironic. I think “unfortunate” is a better word.”

Yeah, my youngest knew that in 8th grade. The kid was not pleased to have to explain that to a student teacher in English class.

“Just who the hell does this guy think he is?”

Well, it usually happens with the females of species but he’s(??) still attempting Scotthenogenesis in the wrong pond. Maybe practicing?? I bet he thinks it feels really good, even without squirting out any extra viable versions of (they)self.

@ scott allen

“I do feel bad for you as you have so much hostitily in your posts…”

Me? Hostility? Noooo….. that’s not possible! Luckily, with Netflix, I can indulge in as much pathological self-soothing as humanly possible, and always maintain a cool and mellow attitude in public.

And I must say I have somewhat cooled down over the last year; though I still wouldn’t advise anyone to second-guess the nature of my soul by gazing at the edges of my eyes: people do not like the experience. Corrosive. Rhetorically, I have become more intolerant over time, though. Can’t say I’m not proud of it.

@Scotl Allen Africa’s hunger is not caused by lockdown (links speak about COVID itself). Do you think food export to Africa will solve its hunger ? Actually, all African countries are reducing food import.
You cite flu report from week 50. Perhaps you can cite other weeks. And, accidentally, it is entirely possible that masks prevent flu, too.
Tests have false positives ? Now that is really news. Question is, what is false postive rate.
COVID fills hospitals, so many operations are postponed. If people really start to spread the virus, as you suggest, there will be more cancer deaths, tooo.
Actually I do think that if government closes business, compensation is warranted

Please read ALL the links.

“Disruption to food production and supplies due to COVID-19 could cause more deaths from starvation than the disease itself, according to an Oxfam report published Thursday.”

https://time.com/5864803/oxfam-hunger-covid-19/

We have seen over 4 million excess deaths in 2020 over 2019 from starvation

In economic terms, the western worlds lock down/slow down has caused the supply chain to slow down, which in turn slows down supplies/food stocks to 3rd world countries and also slows down their ability to sell goods, to get money to buy more supplies/food stocks
I will give you two examples.

American produced, flash frozen box beef, is sitting in warehouses on both coast waiting to be shipped but because of lock downs loading is slowed. The beef can’t get to foreign markets, the foreign markets shift their eating to more local products (US beef is preferred). The shift to local markets drives up the price for meats, which in turn drives up the price of grain stocks to feed local (cows, chickens, pigs), which causes poor people to pay more or starve.
Another example is DDG, it is a cheap food for cattle and it replaces local higher priced seed/grain foods. Prior to Covid and our lock down/slow downs. DDG shipped to the west coast would get to the south asian markets with in 6 weeks, it now sits in warehouses for 4 to 6 weeks, then an additional 6 weeks of shipping time, which in turns leads to a shortage of cargo ships. Again the farmers in south Asian have to switch to higher priced local grains stocks, which causes poor people too starve due to the higher prices.

The latest flu report from the CDC is week 50 (2nd week in December).
“Due to the Christmas and New Year’s holidays, the week 51 and 52 FluView reports will be released on Monday, December 30, instead of Friday, December 25 and Monday, January 4th, instead of Friday January 1st” (side note, I believe that they listed Monday, December 30 is actually Monday December 28th, everyone makes mistakes)

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/index.htm

If masks are so great at stopping the flu, why haven’t they had a similar effect on Covid? If enforced lock downs and mask wearing worked (except if you are a politician), California, which is in it’s 3rd week (going into the 4th) of lock down would have the slowest rate of Covid as to what they have now, (the highest)

False positive range from 14% to 1%, the big question should be false negative, which leads people to think they don’t have Covid and continue to spread it.

I don’t want people to spread the virus (as you suggested, that I wanted). However in some/most states elective surgeries are being stopped by the government. Did you know that heart valve, stints and aortic aneurisms (among other similar surgeries) are considered elective?

I would agree on the compensation, but how long can any government keep paying businesses/people, somebody has to produce goods and services.

None of the links I have posted are anti vax sites, most are peer reviewed research or news article with links to peer reviewed papers.
and to 98.6 you might want to switch to pimozide, as lock downs lead to depression, intolerance and suicide.

@ scott allen

“We have seen over 4 million excess deaths in 2020 over 2019 from starvation…”

So you believe that a carefree and mask-free policy would have avoided the economic disruption? That’s bonkers, mate.

@ scott allen

“and to 98.6 you might want to switch to pimozide, as lock downs lead to depression, intolerance and suicide.”

Nah… I only care for pentobarbital. And lockdown is fine by me. Gives me time to focus on my work. Now, do me a favor: start whining a bit more intelligently.

Please read ALL the links.

“Disruption to food production and supplies due to COVID-19 could cause more deaths from starvation than the disease itself, according to an Oxfam report published Thursday.”

This (PDF, source document) has fuck-all to do with what you’re actually whining about, viz., putting on a fucking mask and practicing social distancing. Is there some other dire circumstance that you’ve been subject to? Is your local Red Lobster teetering on the brink?

I’m increasingly getting the sense that you’re fond of the structural socioeconomic flaws that been laid bare.

I will give you two examples.

American produced, flash frozen box beef, is sitting in warehouses on both coast [sic] waiting to be shipped but because of lock downs [sic] loading is slowed [what?]. The beef can’t get to foreign markets, [conjunction] the foreign markets shift their eating to more local products [NOOOOOO!] (US beef is preferred [by whom?]).

Behold, spotts, Beef Magazine.

G-d, it’s the gift that keeps on giving.

However in some/most states elective surgeries are being stopped by the government.

National Guard? Lectroids? Planet 10? Nuclear extortion? A girl named John?

Did you know that heart valve, stints [heh] and aortic aneurisms (among other similar surgeries) are considered elective?

You really need to do your homework, Hunnybunny. Or learn to recognize when bragging about the breadth of your brush is going to lead to embarrassment and ridicule, as though you’re not riding low in the water as it is.

@Scott Allen From the link:
“Oxfam says Yemen, Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), Afghanistan, Venezuela, the West African Sahel, Ethiopia, Sudan, South Sudan, Syria, and Haiti are “extreme hunger hotspots” that are likely to be severely affected by the pandemic.”
Hunger there is caused by war, socialism, drought and other natural catastrophes and kleptocracy.
Meat packing is an essential business:
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trump-sign-executive-order-meat-processing-plants-open/story?id=70389089. Issue is that workers need protective equipment. .
I do not think, either, that American beef is any solution of African hunger. interesting thing is that during Biafra war, Norwegians send them stockfish (cheap protein, no need of refrigerator) and Nigerians still love it.
False negatives reduce number of COVID cases, false positives raise them. You can count error limits to COVID cases, if you want to make point, but diagnosis id different thing. Patient should definitely be told what “false negative”. means.
Do you yourself know that opposite of elective surgery is emergency surgery ? Only medical emergency cases are excluded. I myself wait. It is not that government has closed elective surgeries, but because COVID patients need healthcare,

Correction: these cell lines did not come from elective abortions. Elective abortions at the time were illegal in the United States. These abortions were done legally to protect the health of the mother as recommended by actual doctors.

The real objection is that opponents have a low opinion of the health of the mother and don’t trust doctors to make a medical judgement. The mental health, and really everything short of actual death of a woman is supposed to be unimportant.

Woah. I just saw the little lot we parked in for the 2017 eclipse. It seems a big bomb went off just a building over from there; in between the lot and the bar we peed in.

[email protected] infrastructure hub huu? Could be someone trying to take out the 5G feeds to save us from activation of the ‘covid-19’ and NOT a dirty bomb.

The ‘bomb’ was giving the warnings to leave over loudspeaker:
https://twitter.com/TA32556798/status/1342513650360348676

correction: That was not where we parked. Our lot was skinnier and to the east. I did see where we were on the waterfront in the aerial shots though.

@ Tim,

The AT&T building may have held the Dominion servers wanted for auditing? Lol, I don’t know.

The guy may have died in the explosion but played a recording to tell people to evacuate. Which intrigues me. The guy has zero social media presence & does not appear to be an activist with political motivations. Then again, he worked in IT & security. This had been planned for a while.

Back to topic … Fetal cells in vaccines. The issue doesn’t bother me as much as I suppose it should. I mean, it bothers me. It just doesn’t bother me as much as them leading to autism, SIDS & Alzheimer’s does. Something could be done about the fetal cells being used but it wouldn’t make them safer.

@Christine:

It just doesn’t bother me as much as them leading to autism, SIDS & Alzheimer’s does.

Researchers have looked at this multiple times. Vaccines do not cause these things.

You repeat same thing endlessly, thinking that it makes it truth. It does not work that way.
Firstly, this vaccines cause things is strange. Vaccines have different antigens and ingredients. They definitely cause different things,
As for autism, Japan stopped MMR vaccinations and autism rate still rose. Data was collected, as you suggested, with questionnaires. Very good proof, that,
Vaccinations actually seems to reduce SIDS rates, Where you get Alzheimer’s disease, I do not know. Trying to scare old people, I guess,

Still can’t bother to explain why the rate of SIDS has decreased by more than 50% over the last two decades…..

There’s not a single bit of antivax nonsense you won’t believe. My cousin’s father in law died of COVID on fucking Christmas day, and you’re spreading bullshit about how it’s only a big deal if you get the flu vaccine. I hope you find a rabid bat in your bedroom, and everyone has to get the rabies vaccine.

“This had been planned for a while.”

If taking down the building was a goal* then that planning didn’t seem to take into account that those Bellsouth ‘Central Offices’ are cold war relics; basically bunkers to survive nuclear strike and aftermath.

Or Perhaps they knew exactly where to punch and there was a more Die Hard plot afoot — Joe’s alarm system is now disabled; lets get his xbox. Or failover:access data??

*their services did not even go down until gas was cut and batteries drained.

CK: “Fetal cells in vaccines. The issue doesn’t bother me as much as I suppose it should.”

Since there have never been fetal cells in vaccines, that “issue” shouldn’t bother you at all.

Vaccine developers are missing a bet here though. Why not pump vaccines full of fetal stem cells? They’d magically travel to whatever part of the body is ailing, fixing bad knees, Parkinson’s, cancer and hyper-hydrosis.

I’m calling Pfizer on Monday.

If taking down the building was a goal* then that planning didn’t seem to take into account that those Bellsouth ‘Central Offices’ are cold war relics

I guess you’ve never had to bitch to The President’s Analyst about a bad Redback in a real CO. That would be an unlikely box.

They are fukkin’ ugly and you must walk past them to get to traffic court.

They all remind me of my windowless high screwell to much. If I thought I could take one down, I would try.

I guess you’ve never had to bitch to The President’s Analyst about a bad Redback in a real CO.

Why, no. I can’t say that I have. If I were in that position, I’d probably sneak in a couple submarine lead-acids and call it upper management’s problem.

My one triumphant, happy memory sandwiched between insanity and my employer’s wife’s funeral and this guy comes along and sprays himself all over it. Tainted. Stained. Dirty.

Au contraire
flu and pneumonia vaccines decrease the risk of Alzheimer’s in seniors.
We know that they are not causing it since at least 2001.There are many studies/ references but the most recent and concise I can find may be ( alz.org/ releases_2020) 27 July; Amran et al 17% LESS with flu vaccine and up to 40% LESS ( dependent upon specific genes) with pneumonia vaccines ages 65-75, Ukraintseva **.

The mistaken idea may have started with Hugh Fudenberg ( remember him? hint: association with Andy) and has been spawned by the tales about aluminium/ aluminum or mercury causing AD. I can recall a long article about this possibility in about 1990 in the New Yorker of all places – remember people fearing cooking pans and foil?

Misinformation like this can be very harmful to older people – especially in a pandemic year- because getting the flu could lead to serious events in people with pre-existing health issues, at any age and hospitals are already at capacity in many countries because of Covid.

But anti-vaxxers have to stir up fear about vaccines anyway that they can..

** SBM followers know how to find these sources and trolls will ignore them anyway

@ Denice Walter

Indeed, skeptics could learn from Hitchens’ response. There is a time to debate deniers and convince doubters, and another time to repudiate bad faith and whiny stubbornness.

I must say that my politics tend to be center-right – not quite Hitchens’… – but I’ve always admired the man on almost all his positions. He was an unrivaled master when it came to debating the undebatable. I’ve learned a lot listening to him and reading him.

He had all the right references and rhetorical talent to handle scum parading as intellect. And despite his somewhat ultra-left leanings – which I have trouble sharing or thoroughly sympathising with – he had an unwavering commitment to enlightenment values, devoid of genuine bigotry. He remains a solid reference for me. Not an ultimate one, but a very solid one.

I do try to popularise his thought in the French speaking sphere: I do feel culturally isolated with my anglophile leanings in this rather chauvinist cultural environment.

And I’ve also noticed all the French-speaking antivaxxers in France coming out of the closet during the pandemic. It’s frightening to see the extent to which they are present in that environment – though much much much less vocal than in the US: no Del Bigtree around here… – and believe they represent the moral majority on the matter: the fact that medical matters are not very much discussed by cranks in the public sphere as they are not given a platform, comparatively to the US, which is much more free in this domain, leaves one with the uncanny feeling that the cultural war on this matter hasn’t really started there… and also that it seems no one wants to really start it. Though I must say that the Didier Raoult Saga has shown that something really is rotten in the public perception of medicine. Not sure if it will be possible to endlessly keep the lid on this KulturKampf no one seemingly wants to have.

I don’t knoin your non-enlgish illegitimate banter but I think peeing on the floor as you leave is a bold move.

Carry on.

@ Tim

You’re unclear. Didn’t have the impression of peeing on the floor as I left. Some things annoy, some don’t; that’s just the way it is.

@ F68.10:

I didn’t agree with him on everything but I think he handled ” scum parading as intellect”. excellently. As you know, I survey some of the most despicable and frenzied hives of unreason and misinformation on the web thus, when I read self aggrandising pronouncements from maleducated trolls here I often can trace exactly from whence it originated. I find it useful to point that out: the self-styled maverick, revolutionary thinkers just read it on a supplement seller’s website or heard it on a right leaning internet broadcast. that advocates for a return to the gold standard or 1950s culture.

So I don’t deal ( for the most part) with the followers, I try to enlighten other sceptics about the perpetrators : who they are, how they work their magical spells on the vulnerable and how they profit, sometimes immensely.. What both groups have in common is their masquerading as intellectuals and experts in cargo cult fashion, aping the language and presentation of scientists or scholars when they are nothing of the sort, speaking ex cathedra about bullshit to impress those who are even more clueless .than they are.

@ Terrie,

What’s your point? Your cousin’s father in law didn’t get his flu shot but died from covid on Christmas day? My DIL’s mom died of breast cancer on Christmas day … What do either of these have to do with anything?

Or did he get his flu shot before dying of covid on Christmas day?

Wow, you really are a lousy human being, aren’t you? I’m betting your son’s MiL got to have her family with her when she was dying. But thanks to rat lickers like you, the US had zero chance of reducing spread of COVID, and now 1 in 1000 Americans have died from it, and my cousin’s kid have the holidays forever tainted as the day they had to say goodbye to their grandpa over a zoom call, despite living less than 10 miles from the hospital, while you run around discouraging people from getting vaccinated, the thing that will actually stop this from happening.

But it’s not your kids’ grandfather who died, so we all know you won’t care, because you have less empathy than a moldy gym sock, and want other people to suffer, because then everyone else will be as miserable as you.

because you have less empathy than a moldy gym sock, and want other people to suffer

puts crush’s moldy gym sock in microwave and slurps up the partially liquified, re-curdled contents

Can confirm. Am suffering. I empathize. I don’t know why.

@ Lawrence,

"Still can’t bother to explain why the rate of SIDS has decreased by more than 50% over the last two decades….."

Because “Back to Sleep” reduces the risk of the vagal off-cycle that is occuring during the vaccine induced seizures, just like Back to Sleep works to reduce SUDEP. I’ve mentioned this before here. Many times.

You’re saying that vaccines cause SIDS….but that they are so bad at it, that a baby sleeping in its back can half the possibility?

Where was your original statistical evidence?

@ Number Wang,

The addition of a few more ICD codes for cause of death helped to dilute the statistics as well.

@Christine Kincaid SIDS is unexplained death. If a reason could be found, its code would of course be used,

@ Aarno Syvänen

“@Christine Kincaid SIDS is unexplained death. If a reason could be found, its code would of course be used…”

You know, Aarno, I’ve had quite a number of people, Brave Defenders of Science, explain to me that the science on SIDS is settled. When you simply mention morally repulsive explanations of some cases of SIDS, that are kind of documented in the scientific literature, you do get that kind of denial: that can’t be a cause of SIDS because SIDS is explained: it doesn’t have an explanation.

This is only a mild caricature of the kind of denial that you get when writing down on ugly topics on Wikipedia. What I wrote down on SIDS has been reverted by someone with medical credentials but that, given the topics I ventured on, had vested interests in denying some aspects of the literature on SIDS. Luckily, aside from this SIDS sentence or paragraph that has been reverted, the bulk of the Wikipedia article I rewrote still stands up to scrutiny after a few years.

SIDS is kind of forbidden territory.

Because “Back to Sleep” reduces the risk of the vagal off-cycle that is occuring during the vaccine induced seizures

I’d say that’s a keeper, but the trash has to go to the curb tonight.

California now has the worst COVID-19 spread in US

“California is now reporting the highest number of new daily COVID-19 cases per capita in the country.”

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/California-COVID-19-cases-data-CDC-worst-states-US-15829422.php

“It feels like during this whole pandemic, the people in charge have been acting like this is an experiment in a lab at Stanford,” he said. “It’s all about, ‘How can we win the COVID death rate race,’ with no regard given to any other real-world concern that impacts society like livelihoods, well-beings and mental health.”

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/California-COVID-lockdown-cases-deaths-businesses-15819841.php

But yes I know this is from a right wing, Trump loving newspaper. But I think someone posted this very same idea about a last week, last month, 4 months ago and 6 months ago right here on this blog, and the responses were that I was calling for people to die of Covid and the Baconator as ususal called me an anti vaxxer and Nonards notice a misspelled word in the two articles and then claimed because of the misspelling they were both disproved.and F98.6 went on a rant about death or prison. But I would love to read your responses but I have an 11:15 tee time and get to watch the whales and golf at the same time.

Your entire argument hinges on assuming that the current death toll is as bad as it gets, and that all impact is due to preventative measures, neither of which is true, and your only rebuttal is mocking people’s names, which tells me your understanding of the issue is on par with your understanding of the history of the deep web.

He understands it deeply. It shouldn’t matter that all that knowledge is wrong.

Slice, slice, slice, THAR SHE BLOWS, slice, slice… Here that ‘twing’? That is the sound of quality. This driver is made of titanium and I paid alot for it on Etsy. Sucks to be you with your old school woods.

terrie and the pirate,
I am responsible for only the last paragraph.

As to “on assuming that the current death toll is as bad as it gets, and that all impact is due to preventative measures” The other quotes and cites are from a very liberal paper, not sure how you missed that.

Our understanding of the internet goes back to punch cards and before dial up was in full use. I had a Macintosh, but that was before you were a gleam in your daddies eye. So yes we do like poking fun at some people on this site. Do you feel left out?
I could have included you in my list along with Denice who always replies to Christine about being anti vax, part of a conspiracy or how everyone is suppose to disregard Christines post but Denice always manages to respond to Christines post.

these posts would make a great sitcom.

Tim most of these pudknockers on this site are too young to do know the difference between a wood (old school) and woody (the car, surf board,the bar, the disney doll, the wood pecker or ….). Santa brought me a Calloway GBB epic (so I didn’t have to buy it anywhere), it replaced one of my big berthas. was sunny and 73 and on maui the humpbacks breach, its too shallow for deep dives so you don’t see them blow. Truly amazing creatures, they know how big they are but more gentle than any lamb and more inquisitive than even the spinners.

@ scott allen

“I had a Macintosh, but that was before you were a gleam in your daddies eye.”

Bla-bla-bla. Next, you’re going to tell us that you were the one to implement the CORDIC algorithm for computing transcendental functions in Hewlett Packard’s 1968 calculator.

Sure, pal.

(The nerve…)

“most of these pudknockers on this site are too young”

What?? Most of these people here are old af {at least, over twenty}.

Terry and the pirate.

“and your only rebuttal is mocking people’s names,”

Lets go down the list of the names I mock.

one is a name of a cartoon character, with big hand and a small brain.
another is a sage in Hindu mythology.
another is a fictional tv series.
and another describes a medical mental condition.

So I believe I am on pretty safe ground making fun of their sock puppets
Just because you are educated, doesn’t automatically grant you intelligence or wisdom. One poster here mocked you, so subtly that you didn’t even realize it.

F98.6
Nope was using my slide rule (an aluminum one with florescent green/yellow paint, still have it) , I was pretty excited to be the first one to get a bowmar in my physics class.

@ scott allen

“Nope was using my slide rule (an aluminum one with florescent green/yellow paint, still have it) , I was pretty excited to be the first one to get a bowmar in my physics class.”

Did you use to lick it? More seriously: stop trying to shame us with your old age, experience and wisdom as if you invented the light bulb. This is not putting you in a positive light.

@Scott Allen Funny thing is that you say that we should believe everything printed in a very liberal newspaper. Not a good argument, that.

Our understanding of the internet goes back to punch cards and before dial up was in full use. I had a Macintosh, but that was before you were a gleam in your daddies eye.

Dear, G-d, what is this about? I had a first-generation Mac (with the signatures inside the back case). So what? F*ck, my freshman year in college, we were using a pair of DEC-20’s, “chip” and “dale.” (I actually managed to score a pair of DECwriter II’s — my dream was to get a polyurethane top, with slots for the paper output, and make a dining-room table.) Then everybody got nervous when they were replaced with a RISC machine, “sphinx” — “you RISC losing all your data.”

But, hell, I was programming HP calculators before that, the neighbors let me use their Compucolor II, the sixth-grade computer club made the local TV news (and peeked and poked the station’s logo for camera), a social-studies teacher laid a System/360 manual on me, and my dad briefly had to take a gig at a Radio Shack — I mourn the loss of the one in my neighborhood, even if the supply of actual components had been reduced to a few cabinets by the end — where I taught myself BASIC on a TRS-80 with audio cassette storage.

Then came the Commodore PETs, a stint with Harris 100’s,* and so forth (I don’t remember whether anyone actually wound up using the Lisp machine).

You should think twice before randomly starting a dick-waving contest, spotts.

*Have you ever written assembly code embedded in FORTRAN on the VULCAN operating system? Changed tape drives? Talked to a pen plotter? Figured out a Tek 4010? I didn’t think so.

The other quotes and cites are from a very liberal paper, not sure how you missed that.

Well, the ICU capacity in southern California is back down to zero. How’s it out on the islands?

Next, you’re going to tell us that you were the one to implement the CORDIC algorithm for computing transcendental functions in Hewlett Packard’s 1968 calculator.

Thanks for that bit of history. A lot packed into two pages.

@ Narad @ scott allen

“You should think twice before randomly starting a dick-waving contest, spotts.”

Did you ever try to read Harry Potter by replacing the words “magic wand” by “penis”?

Let me tell you: it ends up being very very kinky.

@ Narad:

Ananda! Holy crap! I used to drive past there regularly..I even thought about taking a yoga class years ago but it seemed like one of those places that are “too pure” for their own good. Or mine. I had friends who followed yoga/ chanting etc Long story. The ashram ( see website) is in a rural/ suburban area off of the main road and not far from Kiryas Joel and the world’s most expansive discount designer mall. Actually, quite a scenic place especially in spring and summer.
re Millbrook itself: I’ve been there but for more mundane reasons: seeing the garden and main street.
-btw- are you that Narad or another one?

TI 99/4A, VAX/VMS, PDP-11, some Sun box more powerful in a small box than a room full of the former, and a CRAY across the street that, naturally, had a sign telling me not to touch it /s/s checking in.

Cries in CP/M How could I forget the Coleco Adam. Well, I tried.

I forgot some, too — bought a NeXTstation Color at nearly retail (academic discount, and shipped to Oregon and back to avoid sales tax) when they came out. I still have it; it booted once or twice years ago, but I’ve got to find a replacement drive. Sweet, sweet machine, and where all that NS* stuff on one’s Apple machine derives from.

I’ve never seen a whale IRL — Ohh, dolphins aplenty; a pod once saved us from sharks — Though maybe gentle, I hear they have very formidable ‘equipment’. Though, ounce per ounce, not bigger than the average echidna’s.

What COVID related hospitalizations ? They do cost money. And mocking reducing the death rate is really callous. Every item of death rate is a person once lived

So I believe I am on pretty safe ground making fun of their sock puppets

Oh, f*cking wonderful, it doesn’t know what a sockpuppet is.

@Narad, the first Macintosh was released in 1984, and he’s claimed I could not have encountered the term “deep web” in grad school in 2003, so scott apparently thinks I was in grad school in my early to mid teens. I have to admit, I’m flattered.

-btw- are you that Narad or another one?

I’m not the actual person, if that’s what you mean — I’m no spring chicken, but too young to have been carrying on with Dianne di Prima.

To f98.6,
I worked with Joseph Wilson Swan, I knew Joseph Wilson Swan. Joseph Wilson Swan was a friend of mine. F98.6 you’re no Joseph Wilson Swan. Without my good buddy Joseph Wilson Swan nobody would be in a positive light.
And yes I did use my spit to clean my slide rule (it kept everyone from borrowing it), to remove the mechanical pencil marks made during complex calculations and used to keep track of the magnitude of a calculation.

To Aarno.
I never claimed that you should believe anything printed anywhere. (Can you show me where I stated “Funny thing is that you say that we should believe everything printed in a very liberal newspaper.”) So your starting premise is incorrect, which invalidates the rest of you statement. The reason I now use “liberal” papers is due to “Nonards” criticism that I was using “right wing, Trump leaning” and “Tabloid” newspapers and as such, were a discredited sources (I’ve had to quit using the New York Times and the Washington Post for the same reason).

To Nonards,
I was responding to Terri and the Pirates. to quote you “please learn how to use the reply button” I wish everyone would use that. As to your question on ICU its about normal for this time of year, as we have a surge from visitors who think they can surf “big waves”, drink as much as they want, drive the rented corvette as fast as they want, ride the rented jet ski and drive a Harley. We have the added freedom that the I-D-I-O-T-S from lala land who have been locked up for months didn’t/don’t have.
And I am sorry the “Nonards” is self deprecating, I kind of like the Hindu god/sage thing.

To Terri and the Pirate.
“so scott apparently thinks I was in grad school in my early to mid teens.”

I never claimed you were in Grad school in 2003, you did…. From a previous post. “The term has been around since before 2003 when I encountered it in grad school.”

And so much compassion. “ I hope you find a rabid bat in your bedroom and everyone has to get the rabies vaccine.” I hope your nicer to the walmart clerk who double rings your items.

@ scott allen

“F98.6 you’re no Joseph Wilson Swan.”

Yawn… teach me things I do not know.

@ Narad

When will Eternal September end?

I was responding to Terri and the Pirates. to quote you “please learn how to use the reply button” I wish everyone would use that.

Well, you f*cked it up yet again. Perhaps there is some basic conceptual problem here: When you click “reply,” the idea is that you are responding to what is immediately above. Now, there are only two layers of nesting, because the whole thing would quickly become unreadable otherwise.

If you find it too tedious to backtrack to the source comment in a long exchange, something that certainly has manifested here, just quote* and start at the bottom.

*Preferably with the correct markup. You can also link directly to other comments. I take it HTML is not over your head, version 4.01’s being 21 years old at this point, and all.

When will Eternal September end?

I suggest just kicking back with an appropriate beverage and this.

Modern Psychometry data, man, to 2-decimal point accuracy.

@ Terrie,

No, my grandson’s other grandma died & my DIL didn’t get to be with her because they planned on driving out to Illinois the day after Christmas but she died on Christmas morning.

Now; tell me how I contributed to Covid when I haven’t left the state all year, pulled my son out of school before the school closed, have been masking since January 28 & had both Thanksgiving & Christmas at home alone with just my husband & youngest 3 children?

@ christine kincaid

“Now; tell me how I contributed to Covid when I haven’t left the state all year, pulled my son out of school before the school closed, have been masking since January 28 & had both Thanksgiving & Christmas at home alone with just my husband & youngest 3 children?”

I must say, Christine, that while I may/do disagree with you on substantial points, I acknowledge that you mean well. Even the way you look at the science, which makes me want to bang my head against the wall, also shows that you do mean well, which makes me want to bang it even harder against the wall. Weirdly enough, it is kind of a compliment. I just can’t manage to have hard feelings against you, no matter what you keep writing.

Felt I had to say it. Dunno why, precisely…

Hope you enjoyed Christmas with your family.

Here’s the thing. I don’t believe you’re being as cautious as you claim. You have a long history of claiming things that later turn out not to be true, such as your claim that your son is fully vaccinated and that he’d never had a vaccine preventable disease. Your claim that you’re being super duper cautious doesn’t mesh with your insistence that the flu vaccine is the culprit behind severe COVID, and as I said, we all know you lie.

@ Terrie

“…we all know you lie.”

Or merely “massages the truth”. People do not always share the same understanding of what lying is all about. I’m well versed in these kind of nuances… though I haven’t double-checked CK’s claims as much as other people on RI.

@ Julian Frost,

With the way the vaccines/autism studies are structured; they couldn’t correlate gravity to a falling object because they only count kids with an F84.0 as being autistic. Almost half of autistic 8 year olds who require support services have never received a F84.0.

I’m completely artistic. Please change your profile pic as it is making me trash my parents’ house every time I see it {they are rapidly running out of tv’s for me to scrap}. I just go scottuclear, spinning around and pointing — look, look, just look! I’m going to tell my lawyer, Scott, that you are incensing me. Your discordant image makes me triggered. Could you just make one without the hand that causes me to cream my sheets every night please? It is just too fucking weird for normal mortals to behold.

Thx for your consideration, Clefts.

Tim

ps. whatever else you said on topic was probably stupid anyways. Sorry I got distracted.

Well, it’s not out of the mod queue which makes me fear the Deep State may have EMP’d Orac. But I’ll take a guess; You can’t just leave something like that laying around and not expect me to ‘procure’ it.

Christine, you’re clueless about those studies, as you are about SIDS. You don’t have the background to understand at least half about what you babble about. You throw terms around and cite figures without reference. You talk like an expert yet don’t realize how clueless you sound to those who actually work in those fields. Buzzwords don’t make you an expert….. a lot of hard work, which you obviously haven’t done, does.

There’s a counter hand gesture provided by Mr. Natural when the Cult of the Snoid is “confronted,” but I can’t find the panel. I don’t think I have it correct here, but it might provide some defense: clasp your hands together, and simply raise your middle fingers into an oscillating V-shape.

Maybe the real thing will come to me after I deal with the dishwasher.

Welp, shadow puppetry just got a great deal more stimulating.

Other than that, TIL that deaf people are all flaming closet racists and sex fiends; given the right projection.

The only practical way to “deal with the dishwasher” is RandR — thingyverse might have some additive manufacturing solution in some situations, but that is far in the future and for those with knowhow to build their own $300 3-d printer and also know how to hide their digital footprint — pirating patented plastic spritzer valves.. what has this world come to??

So you still say that vaccines cause only medically undiagnosable autism ? How this is possible ?
Besides of that the statement is false. Japan study used questionnaires as you prefer, and result was still same. Jain used insurance claims.

@ Aarno,

I do not want to see a study using questionnaires OR insurance codes. I want to see the studies identify the autism cases the same way the CDC counts autism cases, when they assess prevalence.

This is how CDC does surveillance
https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/casedefinitions.html#autism
A child is included in MADDSP as a confirmed case of ASD if he or she displays behaviors (as described on a comprehensive evaluation by a qualified professional) that are consistent with the diagnostic criteria listed in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, Text Revision (DSM-IV-TR) for any of the following conditions: Autistic Disorder, Pervasive Developmental Disorder-Not Otherwise Specified (PDD-NOS, including Atypical Autism), or Asperger’s Disorder.
Besides of that, you did not answer the question: How it is possible that vaccines cause only autism that is not medically diagnosed, do no cause insurance claims and do not appear in questionnaires ?

”Almost half of autistic 8 year olds who require support services have never received a F84.0.”

That’s a billing code used by health professionals, not a diagnosis used in actual practice.

If you’re concerned about the accuracy of studies using an ICD designation to identify autism cases, you should be even more loudly protesting online “studies” by antivaxers that rely solely on parental input as to what diagnoses their children supposedly received.

@ Dangerous Bacon,

I do not advocate for those “online ‘studies'”. Which is why I never cite them here.

@ F68.10:

I am quite impressed if you wrote a great part of the SIDS entry/ English. There is other stuff at NORD/ SIDS that might interest you . I can imagine how certain people might have extreme un-SB views about such a subject as you narrate.
-btw- Harry Potter – a new type of magic wand?

@ Denice

“I am quite impressed if you wrote a great part of the SIDS entry/ English.”

no, no, no… another topic that incidentally touched upon SIDS. It’s when I wrote lines on that matter that Wikipedia expertise came tumbling in with a rather one-sided perspective on the matter. I just stepped back and stopped writing my stuff at that moment. The article stands mostly as is.

“-btw- Harry Potter – a new type of magic wand?”

Hitachi’s magic wand is better than Harry Potter’s. It delivers on its promises.

Covid would as well have a terrible effect on the health of poor and non-white people. And it is nog the masks that causes problems, but the way we deal with them when we throw them away. If I’m on my way to a shop, I see throwaway masks on the streets, which has effect on the environment. If people would be more carefull with them, they wouldn’t be an environmental problem, or a problem for wildlie.

So lock downs and slow downs are not only killing poor people and people of color, our mask wearing is killing wildlife.

No, spotts, morons throwing them on the ground is. Have you always been so concerned about litterbugs?

Do you know what else is killing minorities?
COVID! Whether you look at figures from the UK or US ( and probably most other countries), minorities are getting ill and dying more:: whether they’re Hispanic, S or W Asian or Black living in NY, London or California. Often these figures are multiples of what whites suffer. ( S. CA and NYC especially: for many reasons including type of work,
more fq comorbidities and poverty)

And do researchers ever say that there are NO psychological , economic effects from lockdowns or no environmental effects? Not at all.. They are not news to us..
But they weigh these against the benefits of closures and masks
This is disparagement of measures is similar to anti-vaccination talking points where vaccines’ negatives ( real and imagined) are discussed whilst their benefits are either doubted or dismissed entirely.

In related news…
Anti-mask/ anti-shutdown activists stormed a food market in protest yesterday ( LA Times) IN LA.
What else is happening in LA recently? It involves ICUs being at capacity and massive infection rates in particular areas. Although the positivity rate for CA is not terrible overall ( see Johns Hopkins; Becker Hospital), LA is the focus right now.

Also, the new variant, now in CO, is more transmissible. Great time to discourage masks.. . ..

https://www.chron.com/news/article/Like-a-bathtub-filling-up-Alabama-is-slammed-15834019.php

The beer store today started with a pleasant surprize; both the manager and the new trainee were wearing their “masks” {one, and Auburn bandanna and the other something slim and dainty on the some-flavor-of-latino, fast talking new girl} — This is more and more a rare occurrence there.

True, they were in each other’s faces with some freindly but firey conversation about paychecks or somesuch but it’s the thought that counts. But, no. Upon the chip reader announcing “approved”, new girl pulls her mask completely down, leans into the counter, and with a pleasant gaping grin tells me to “have a nice day”.

I weep for the species. https://youtu.be/ouov5nSC33Y?t=1

”But we ARE saving rich, old, white people so I guess it’s ok.”

A lame attempt at fanning racial discord. Not unknown among the antivax contingent (see the William Thompson affair, and flirtations with Nation of Islam racists).

Speaking of which, a Nation of Islam spokesman opened a lot of eyes this week, not just with revelations about Covid-19 vaccination being part of a genocidal plot against black people, but breaking the news that Jews get special non-toxic flu shots.

”Ishmael Muhammad: “We have to be careful of what injections we allow ourselves to take. The minister said to us did you know that there are different flu vaccine shots? According to one of our researchers, he went to the doctor, and she recommended a flu shot; and he refused, saying that he didn’t want a flu shot due to the excessive mercury and other additives used as preservatives. And she told him: ‘Oh! We have a flu shot that is a non-preservative, that does not have any additives that we give to Jewish people.”’

http://jns.org/senior-nation-of-islam-official-covid-19-vaccine-part-of-a-plot-to-kill-off-blacks/

As I normally live in the neighborhood, I can confirm that their ground operation has gone to shit, about on par with the local Mormon brigade. The JWs travel in half-dozen groups and are similarly feeble. The most prominent evangelizing is one or two ladies who wander around bellowing at the top of their lungs.

A couple of things. re rs and Julian

I can’t say for sure that Covid denialists/ minimisers are against diversity BUT a few of the loons I survey really despise cities and city dwellers who often are … minorities. Endless rants Perhaps they fear the day when whites are no longer the majority; in some cities/ states ( UK and US) they are becoming merely a plurality now and young children are more likely to be a minority than not,

A few months ago, some denialists believed that the mortality rate for Covid was 1 in a thousand HOWEVER, we learned recently that it is 1 in a thousand PEOPLE – not 1 in a thousand people with Covid. ( US)

A trends analyst ( PRN) shared his exasperation that he observed a child… A CHILD…being forced to wear a mask. Where is our freedom?

Pretty soon children will also be forced to eat their vegetables and look both ways before crossing the street. What is the world coming to.

“we learned recently that it is 1 in a thousand PEOPLE”

That is a pretty good head start. If we could get that up to 1 in 300 or 100 then that might make people take it more seriously. 1 in 10 is right out as that would just make everyone despondent*.

*I really, really do not recommend watching the new Steven King adaptation of Stand at this time {even though,so far, it is great}.

1 in 300 would mean around 1,000,000 dead .Onwards towards herd immunity?
.
-btw- if you watched Years and Years:
Emma Thompson as PM: Worse than Boris ( but better hair) but not as bad as Donald? No one is, even fictional characters
Didn’t the asterisks in her party stand for FUCK or suchlike? That was in June- it feels like 5 years ago.
We have HBO so I watch all of the new shows although I don’t stick with all of them
..

“1 in 300 would mean around 1,000,000 dead.”

This is where I see this going here, Denice Walter. I’ll appreciate those trying to talk me down, but still I’mma going to just laugh all the way to my rooted-neutered Zoom appearances.

The phone keeps ringing more and more. “This person died, that person died” Stupid fucking church people. Not that I told you so, or anything /s/s/s/s

They are all flying up to heaven and endangering LEO satellites.

Thought this might be of interest, although it’s probably nothing that most won’t already know. It’s a youtuber I listen to for UK politics who’s also a science teacher, anyway he’s read some stuff on the cholera epidemic that made Dr Snow take off the pump handle and is discussing how the public reactions, especially conspiracy theories, correspond with modern Covid reactions. Also wondered what non-Brits made of his accent which is not southern/public school. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KTNVW2H7Aw

Aarno,

“CDC estimates that about 1 in 54 children has been identified with ASD (or 18.5 per 1,000 8-year-olds). These estimates from the ADDM Network are based on data collected from health and special education records of children living in 11 communities across the United States during 2016. Information was collected on children who were 8 years old because previous work has shown that, by this age, most children with ASD have been identified for services”

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/addm.html

Do the vaccines/autism studies wait until children are 8 years old to “count” them? No. They count any child at any age when the study ends. The Danish studies included anybody over the age of 1 year. In fact, less than half of their group was over the age of 8.

Do the vaccine/autism studies count children with an educational diagnosis of ASD? No, they use only medical documents.

@ DB,

Is it? Regarding autism prevalence, I have no other choice. Otherwise, I certainly can’t rely on them to spot the discrepancies between how they count cases & how vaccine risk studies count cases. That sucks.

Cohort studies are like that. Later cohorts have younger children at the endpoint, and thus lower autism prevalence. There are statistical methods to handle this.
There is a study showing that vaccination does not raise autism rate among children with autistic siblings:
Hviid A, Hansen JV, Frisch M, Melbye M. Measles, Mumps, Rubella Vaccination and Autism: A Nationwide Cohort Study. Ann Intern Med. 2019 Apr 16;170(8):513-520. doi: 10.7326/M18-2101. Epub 2019 Mar 5. PMID: 30831578.
Participants: 657 461 children born in Denmark from 1999 through 31 December 2010, with follow-up from 1 year of age and through 31 August 2013.
Many children older than 8 were included

Christine was stumped by the idea that two different reports used different measurement (per 1000 and per 100,000), so I suspect serious statistical analysis is beyond her.

“I have no other choice.”

Antivaxers have yet to realize the damage to their already minuscule credibility when they attack a source as flawed and corrupt, yet when it seems to back their claims it’s suddenly authoritative and reliable.

The most blatant example is antivaxers’ linking to the CDC pages on vaccine excipients a.k.a. “Toxins”.

@ DB,

I have never complained about the CDC’s ADDM Network. I also don’t rant about “toxins” in vaccines.

Dr. Bacon is this the link you are referring to? I provided the link for any lurking newbies. Thanks for the reminder. This list of excipients really opened my eyes. You see I am a compulsive label reader and this list BLEW MY MIND. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/b/excipient-table-2.pdf

The thing with the CDC besides having a history of conflicts of interest, they are experts at obfuscation and data manipulation…not a good combo if one is trying to be trustworthy.

Hope you are well and doing what you can to keep your immune system in top form.

A list of chemical names you do not understand does not actually provide meaningful information, and the only purpose of sharing it by anti-vaccine activists is to try and scare people by implying that the list, by itself, means something.

It’s an attempt at manipulation. Those seeking to actually know more about vaccines ingredients would not go to the list alone, but to credible, science-based sources on the topic. Like: https://www.chop.edu/centers-programs/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-ingredients

The thing with the CDC besides having a history of conflicts of interest, they are experts at obfuscation and data manipulation…not a good combo if one is trying to be trustworthy.

Citation needed.

Hope you are well and doing what you can to keep your immune system in top form.

Keep your jazz well formed and your stools smooth, Nats.

Ooh, that is a scary list.

Sodium chloride (salt), sucrose, ascorbic acid (I guess vitamin C sneaked up and became a Toxin while I wasn’t looking), and worst of all – water. People have died from water intoxication!

All this stuff in vaccines (remember, the Food Babe tells us there is no safe level of any Toxin, and it’s automatically dangerous if you can’t pronounce the name) – we must DO something!!

Or else the notoriously unreliable and corrupt CDC is lying 🤥 about the ingredients to scare us away from vaccines, so we can once again have many millions of new cases of vaccine-preventable diseases every year, and Big Pharma can clean up selling billions of dollars worth of antibiotics and other drugs and products to treat them.

Gee, it’s so confusing. 🙁

@ Dorit Reiss:

Especially when so many of them are salts, sugars, vitamins, additives such as what are found in common food products, minute amounts of antibiotics or substances your body already produces like formaldehyde, If you find these scary, please don’t read ingredient lists in the supermarket.

@ Prof. Rei$$ writes, “A list of chemical names you do not understand does not actually provide meaningful information”. You sure do assume a lot. Now you know what I understand and don’t understand? Maybe it is you who doesn’t understand. Now run along and brush up on your persuasion skills…Perhaps that is why you teach law instead of practice it.

Have you seen the latest on your beloved GSK? Looks like they won’t have a vaccine avail until the end of the year.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/11/gsk-sanofi-covid-vaccine-delayed-end-next-year

As pointed out by Denice above, if the list seems scary to you, (and it is clear you think it is scary enough that you think you can use it to scare others from vaccines) then you do not understand it.

I recommend against imagining how other people feel about companies. It’s not good for you. But that’s your problem.

I think all reasonable people would like to have a variety of Covid-19 vaccines available, since that’s our way out of a pandemic that is currently killing thousands of people in the U.S. each day – something most people see as a bad thing. But there are quite a few other candidates that are close to the finish line, so we should see some more coming through reasonably soon, and we are lucky to already have two good options available. Now we just need to get them to people, which, sadly, we seem to be doing poorly at.

I don’t know why they’re talking about fiddling with the dose when they can’t get the ones they have out of the loading dock icebox. Fifth grade me could probably organize a wheelbarrow brigade at the very least.

If it weren’t for the HIV and hepatitis, I’d say go with the multi use nozzle jet injector like Nat Guard did us in college.

@ Duhni¢e writes, “as what are found in common food products” – Maybe in the crap you eat. You are what you eat. Last time I checked, human diploid cells were not listed as a food ingredient nor was formaldehyde (a known carcinogen). Maybe your body makes a lot of formaldehyde…would explain some of your cognitive issues. Will you stop with the comparison? I don’t inject ice cream into my skin and I don’t eat ice cream with Polysorbate 80 or other emulsifiers/stabilizers. This is fake food.

Reading labels is educational. If a product has a list of additives, preservatives, and non food ingredients, I DON’T BUY IT. This is called making an informed choice. I still have a choice.

Case in point, PEG, should not be in drugs, cosmetics, or in food. https://aacijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13223-016-0172-7

Again, you are what you eat. I’ve learned to appreciate that saying more and more as I get older.

Last time I checked, human diploid cells were not listed as a food ingredient nor was formaldehyde (a known carcinogen)

1) There is more formaldehyde in a single apple than in the entire vaccine schedule.
2) Your body makes more formaldehyde each second than is in the entire vaccine schedule.
3) At what quantity is formaldehyde carcinogenic?

@ Julian:

As usual, you are correct. An average person makes about 1.5 oz of formaldehyde a day. Anti-vaxxers point to ingredients lists like these to frighten people who don’t know the chemical names of simple salts, sugars, vitamins etc or simple bio.

Similarly, NW talks about things she doesn’t know: like me: she assumes that I eat poorly, don’t read ingredient labels, have no insight into nutrition, have cognitive issues, am paid by pharma etc whilst..
— food ingredients have been an issue since I was a child because my mother had type 1 diabetes and had to control everything she ate, usually making her own meals rather than using processed foods. I continue to seek out healthy food choices from international cuisine and cooking choices. I eat better than most adults, have never been overweight or had serious health issues.
— she hasn’t the background- education and training- to evaluate anyone’s status, I doubt that she has studied this because first of all, very few people do except for those with specialties in cognition, life span developmental psychology and testing which I have and have worked with potential university students and created educational material for other clients with medical conditions based upon their educational level.
Next, she’ll instruct Orac about organic chemistry.
.
Trolls can confabulate life histories and financial statements for people they hate but that doesn’t make it true.
We could just as easily make accusations that they are being paid by supplement companies or anti-vax lawyers BUT WE DON’T because we rely upon data and evidence.. :

Natalie, I looked at your quotes.

Humans and most other living organisms make small amounts [of formaldehyde] as part of normal metabolic processes…
People can also be exposed to small amounts by eating foods or drinking liquids containing formaldehyde.
Formaldehyde is normally made in the body.
Exposure to relatively high amounts of formaldehyde in medical and occupational settings has been linked to some types of cancer in humans, but the effect of exposure to small amounts is less clear…
Studies looking at the link between workplace exposure to formaldehyde and other types of cancer have not found a consistent link.

In short, it is true that formaldehyde causes cancer, but only at elevated high levels. Levels far above the amounts found in vaccines.

Last time I checked, human diploid cells were not listed as a food ingredient

Does this list include haggis ingredients?

^ Right:

Again, you are what you eat.

OK, so the list, wherever it is, plainly includes assholes. It must be quite complicated. Can you source them humanely?

“If a product has a list of additives, preservatives, and non food ingredients, I DON’T BUY IT. This is called making an informed choice.”

It was LOTS safer back in the day, before all this new-fangled food treatment nonsense. A few bouts of trichinosis or St. Anthony’s fire just made the immune system stronger.

NW: You don’t eat food with preservatives? So, no bacon, no jam or jelly, no jerky, no smoked salmon, no pickles, no sauerkraut, no kimchee, no yogurt?

Man, your diet sounds boring.

@ Dr. Bacon and JustaTech – Thanks for your replies.

For the meats, I go for the celery juice naturally occurring nitrate preserved instead of the synthetic form of nitrate. I know you’ll claim they behave in the same way, I prefer the taste…celery juice is less salty.

Re: Trichinosis – When we eat pork, besides bacon, it is well cooked and usually, unpleasantly dry unless smothered in a sauce/gravy. I’d be ok w/o pork/bacon but not ok for the other family members 🙁

Current jam – Bonne Maman – a tasty French jam made with cherries, sugar, pectin, and lemon juice.

For comparison – Smuckers (crap) – Strawberries, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Corn Syrup, Sugar, Fruit Pectin, Citric Acid.

Current yogurt – Straus Family Creamery – https://www.azurestandard.com/shop/product/food/dairy/yogurt/plain/whole-milk/yogurt-plain-whole-milk-organic/11837?package=DP134

For comparison – Yoplait (crap) – Ingredients: Cultured Pasteurized Grade A Reduced Fat Milk, Sugar, Strawberries, Modified Corn Starch, Kosher Gelatin, Natural Flavor, Colored with Carmine, Pectin, Vitamin A Acetate, Vitamin D3.

Love kimchee and sauerkraut. It is available w/o preservatives.

I’ve gone on long enough.

Good day and good health to you both.

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