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Lipid nanoparticles: The antivax “toxins gambit” reborn for COVID-19 vaccines

Remember the “toxins gambit,” that antivaccine talking point falsely claiming that vaccines are loaded with “toxins”? It’s back for COVID-19 vaccines, and this time lipid nanoparticles are the new mercury and aluminum.

When it comes to the antivaccine movement, there is nothing new under the sun and that none of its propaganda and disinformation about COVID-19 vaccines is new. It’s the same old antivaccine misinformation, tropes, misrepresentations of science, and propaganda, just repackaged for COVID-19 vaccines. I’ve already written about a number of examples. The most frequently used example thus far has been to weaponize anecdotes of death after the vaccine that likely had nothing to do with the vaccine, much as, pre-pandemic, antivaxxers had weaponized anecdotes of sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) after vaccination (and during the pandemic SIDS rates fell because of fewer well child visits and vaccines), all to demonize vaccines. Other examples include claiming that vaccines cause female infertility; that they “damage” or “alter” your DNA, or that COVID-19 is not dangerous (or isn’t even real at all). These are all basically the same tropes that antivaxxers used to use to claim that measles and other vaccine-preventable diseases aren’t dangerous (the implication being that vaccines are unnecessary). Then, of course, there is the ever-popular strategy of fear mongering about reports made to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database, implying that they indicate causation. All techniques antivaxxers used extensively pre-pandemic. So it should be no surprise that antivaxxers are also using a variant of a longtime favorite trope, the “toxins gambit“, the claim that vaccines are loaded with horrible “toxins“, a variant being the claim that vaccines have “fetal cells” or “fetal DNA” in them and are thus horrifically contaminated. Heck, that last one has even been used by antivaxxers about COVID-19 vaccines! This background brings me to lipid nanoparticles, which appear to be the new mercury in vaccines to antivaxxers.

Unsurprisingly, after having tried to misrepresent the mRNA-based vaccines developed and marketed by Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech as “gene therapy” or something that will corrupt your DNA, it’s no surprise that antivaxxers are now resurrecting a version of the “toxins gambit” to use against these same vaccines and that the target of the gambit are the lipid nanoparticles in the vaccines. Unsurprisingly, über-quack Joe Mercola last week decided to do what he does so frequently and summarize the latest COVID-19 conspiracy theories, this time the “toxins gambit” applied to the lipid nanoparticles, in the form of an article entitled “How Safe Are the Nanoparticles in Moderna’s Vaccine?” And Joe Mercola isn’t the only quack trying to demonize lipid nanoparticles.

A refresher on mRNA vaccines

I briefly discussed lipid nanoparticles when I discussed the antivaccine lie that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines will “alter” or “reprogram” your DNA. Even though we’ve discussed it several times, it’s worth discussing again how mRNA vaccines, such as those made by Moderna or Pfizer/BioNTech work, so that you don’t have to click on a lot of links. I’ll start with the basic idea.

The proteins and enzymes that make up cells and organisms are genetically encoded in DNA. DNA is made up of smaller building blocks called nucleotides attached to each other in a linear fashion and packaged in a double helix of two complementary strands wrapped around each other. Proteins are also made up of smaller building blocks, in this case amino acids. The genetic code translates nucleotide sequences into amino acid sequences, with a three nucleotide “word” (codon) specifying a specific amino acid. For purposes of this discussion, the details don’t matter, other than to understand that there is an intermediary between DNA and protein, and that intermediary is RNA. Messenger RNA (mRNA) is synthesized based on the DNA template in the nucleus, transported out of the nucleus, and then set upon by large protein complexes known as ribosomes, which build proteins based on the sequence encoded by the mRNA. The process is a bit more complex than that (for example, the initial RNA synthesized is often spliced into a shorter RNA before being translated into protein, and proteins often have modifications made after their synthesis), but these are the basics.

mRNA vaccines take advantage of this process. Traditional vaccines use killed pathogenic organisms or whole or fragments of proteins from the organism as antigens to provoke an immune response. The problem with this method is that it’s a lot more involved and time-consuming to manufacture the proteins or to grow up the organism then inactivate it to use in vaccines. There are many theoretical advantages to using mRNA instead. For one thing, it’s a lot easier to make large quantities of RNA than it is to make large quantities of protein. For another thing, if a new version of a vaccine is needed, it’s not difficult to just change the sequence of the RNA without altering the rest of the formulation, something that will likely become very important as the need arises to make new vaccines to combat the various variants of SARS-CoV-2 that are cropping up and might eventually evade the vaccine-based immunity. In brief, there’s a lot of advantage to using the recipient’s cells’ own machinery to manufacture the protein used as an antigen to provoke an immune response. In the case of the COVID-19 vaccine, both the Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech versions of the vaccine use the mRNA encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, the protein that the virus uses to get into cells.

There are, of course, problems to be overcome with mRNA vaccines. One is that RNA is unstable in aqueous solution, which is why the RNAs used are modified to make them more stable and also why the vaccines need to be stored at such ultralow temperatures, a characteristic that complicated the rollout because many sites didn’t have -80°C freezers to store the vaccines and such freezers cost thousands of dollars. (The -80°C freezer in my lab cost close to $10,000.) The other problem is getting the mRNA into the cells. That’s where the lipid nanoparticles come in.

Lipid nanoparticles

Lipid nanoparticles are small spherical particles made of lipids into which various “payloads” (in the case of the COVID-19 vaccines, mRNA encoding the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein) can be introduced. These particles are generally less than 100 nm in diameter and made up of—you guessed it—lipids. But what are lipids? Basically, mammalian cell membranes are made of phospholipids. Each lipid molecule in the membrane has two ends, a “head” and two tails. The “head” contains an ionic phosphate group that has affinity towards water and ions, while the two tails are long stretches of hydrocarbon molecule (just carbon and hydrogen) and is hydrophobic (insoluble in water). These molecules are referred to as amphiphilic (from the Greek αμφις, amphis: both and φιλíα, philia: love, friendship), having affinity for both water and hydrocarbons. Many molecules are amphiphilic, including detergents and soaps.

Lipids and lipid bilayers used in lipid nanoparticles
A lipid molecule and a lipid bilayer

Molecules like this can form two kinds of structures, micelles or liposomes. In cells, these amphiphilic phospholipids form a two-layered structure, with the hydrophilic heads facing the aqueous solution and the two-tailed hydrophobic structures facing each other. These bilayers can form spheres, as illustrated below:

Phospholipids
Phospholipids.

And:

Lipid micelles and bilayers
Lipid micelles and bilayers, the latter of which are used in lipid nanoparticles.

As a pseudonymous pharmaceutical scientist wrote:

If you have been preparing salad dressing with vegetable oil and vinegar, you likely notice that the oil droplets would aggregate together into one big slick, whereas you will notice a clear interface between the vinegar and the oil slick. This is because the lipids present in the vegetable oil will align their hydrophobic tails inside the droplet and expose their hydrophilic head outside to interact with the water molecules of the vinegar. This is what we call “micelles”. If you work hard enough, you can create structures called “liposomes” that are able to cage water and solutes within the oil slick, separating from the rest of the water of the vinegar by having a lipid layer.

Liposomes, when used for drug delivery, look like this representation:

Liposome with hydrophobic payload
A liposome with a hydrophobic molecule in its “payload” of the kind used in lipid nanoparticles.

So why use liposomes? In general, the reason to use liposomes to deliver drugs is to get a hydrophilic (water-loving, water-soluble) molecule through the lipid bilayer that makes up a cell and into the cell’s cytoplasm. mRNA, it turns out, is hydrophilic and easily dissolved in aqueous solution; so naturally when scientists started trying to use mRNA in vaccines a couple of decades ago liposomes were a natural choice as the delivery vehicle to get the mRNA to the cells. And, as I’ve alluded to before, antivaxxers are keen to blame all sorts of bad things on lipid nanoparticles. It’s basically a variant of the “toxins gambit” in which lipid nanoparticles are portrayed as being something potentially toxic and deadly.

Mercola and false comparisons

Now that I’ve briefly recounted what lipid nanoparticles are and why they’re used in the Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech COVID-19 vaccines, let’s take a look at the antivaccine disinformaton about them being spread by Joe Mercola:

Moderna and Pfizer are using lipid nanoparticles that contain polyethylene glycol (PEG)2 for this purpose. The mRNA is wrapped in lipid nanoparticles (LNPs) that carry it to your cells, and the LNPs are “PEGylated” — that is, chemically attached to PEG molecules to increase stability.

This experimental mRNA gene therapy and its lipid nanoparticle-based delivery system have never been approved for use in a vaccine or drug. This includes Pfizer’s and Moderna’s COVID-19 vaccines, which were only “authorized” for emergency use by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration — not “approved.”

Significant concerns have been raised over the technology, including the lipid nanoparticles, and Moderna actually abandoned it in 2017 after studies revealed a high rate of adverse effects.

That certainly sounds…ominous. Or does it? One of the references cited by Mercola is, unsurprisingly, an article published on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s antivaccine website Children’s Health Defense, in which RFK Jr. quoted a statement by Moderna:

[T]here can be no assurance that our LNPs will not have undesired effects. Our LNPs could contribute, in whole or in part, to one or more of the following: immune reactions, infusion reactions, complement reactions, opsonation reactions, antibody reactions . . . or reactions to the PEG from some lipids or PEG otherwise associated with the LNP. Certain aspects of our investigational medicines may induce immune reactions from either the mRNA or the lipid as well as adverse reactions within liver pathways or degradation of the mRNA or the LNP, any of which could lead to significant adverse events in one or more of our clinical trials.

This SEC report was dated November 2018. I also note that this is the sort of cautious statement that any scientist would make before a treatment is actually tested in patients. The difference now is that lipid nanoparticles have now been received by tens of millions of patients without significant adverse events.

I also can’t help but note how Mercola is parroting what is seemingly the accepted antivaccine talking point, specifically referring to the Moderna and Pfizer/BioNTech mRNA-based vaccines as “experimental gene therapy”. No, it’s not gene therapy, and, after 70K+ subjects in the clinical trials leading to the FDA’s emergency use authorization (EUA), it’s no longer anything resembling “experimental.” These are just scare words used by the antivaccine movement to invoke doubt and fear regarding these vaccines.

Next up, let’s compare apples to oranges, Joe:

In 2016, Bancel had talked up another of the company’s up-and-coming products, a drug treatment for a rare disease called Crigler-Najjar syndrome. Those with Crigler-Najjar syndrome are missing a liver enzyme needed to break down bilirubin. Moderna’s experimental treatment used mRNA to encode for the missing enzyme, and was encased in LNPs as the delivery agent. But, as STAT reported in 2017, the treatment was “indefinitely delayed” because it “never proved safe enough to test in humans.” According to STAT:
“… mRNA is a tricky technology. Several major pharmaceutical companies have tried and abandoned the idea, struggling to get mRNA into cells without triggering nasty side effects … The indefinite delay on the Crigler-Najjar project signals persistent and troubling safety concerns for any mRNA treatment that needs to be delivered in multiple doses … … And for its chemists, those nanoparticles created a daunting challenge: Dose too little, and you don’t get enough enzyme to affect the disease; dose too much, and the drug is too toxic for patients … Moderna could not make its therapy work, former employees and collaborators said. The safe dose was too weak, and repeat injections of a dose strong enough to be effective had troubling effects on the liver in animal studies.”

Now let’s look at what the STAT article cited also said. Remember that this article was published three years before the COVID-19 pandemic:

But the Crigler-Najjar treatment has been indefinitely delayed, an Alexion spokeswoman told STAT. It never proved safe enough to test in humans, according to several former Moderna employees and collaborators who worked closely on the project. Unable to press forward with that technology, Moderna has had to focus instead on developing a handful of vaccines, turning to a less lucrative field that might not justify the company’s nearly $5 billion valuation.

“It’s all vaccines right now, and vaccines are a loss-leader,” said one former Moderna manager. “Moderna right now is a multibillion-dollar vaccines company, and I don’t see how that holds up.”

STAT

Funny how Mercola didn’t mention this article’s implication that vaccines were not particularly profitable. After all, one of the primary false messages of antivaccine conspiracy theories is that it’s all about the money because vaccines are so insanely profitable.

Of course, comparing vaccines to gene therapy treatments for Crigler-Najjar syndrome is also deceptive. The reason is simple. Replacing an enzyme involved in a critical biochemical process is not the same thing as a vaccine. The targeting isn’t the same in terms of which cells need to produce the protein encoded by the mRNA, and vaccines don’t need nearly the same level of precision when it comes to the amount of protein produced. To be an effective vaccine, all that’s necessary is that there should be a sufficient amount of the protein being used as an antigen to provoke an immune response to “get the attention” of the immune system. The margin for error in reporting an enzyme that is lacking is far less forgiving than the margin for error in producing a protein as an antigen for a vaccine.

But the brain!

Then, of course, there’s the old antivaccine trick of claiming that vaccines cause “neuroinflammation.” First, however:

The mRNA vaccine triggers your body to produce antibodies against the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, and spike proteins in turn contain syncytin-homologous proteins that are essential for various functions in your body, including the formation of the placenta in pregnant women.

“Syncytin is the name given to the endogenous gamma retrovirus envelope,” Mikovits said, “and we know if it’s expressed overtly in the body in different places … for instance, in the brain, where these lipid nanoparticles will go, then you’ve got multiple sclerosis.”

Remember how I said that I wouldn’t just repeat a debunking of an antivaccine trope? I lied, sort of. The whole “syncytin” thing is merely a repackaging of the antivaccine claim that vaccines will make our women sterile. It’s nonsense.

Then there’s this:

The study’s authors suggested lipid nanoparticles like those in COVID-19 vaccines may be ideal for drug delivery systems because of their ability to bypass the blood brain barrier and “reach the target site due to their small size and ability to dodge the reticular endothelial system.”

I recently interviewed Judy Mikovits, Ph.D., a cellular and molecular biologist, and she agreed that LNPs can enter the brain and contribute to pathologic neuroinflammation, possibly leading to adverse effects like multiple sclerosis or ALS. Additionally, these LNPs carrying the mRNA last for long periods of time, forcing your cells to continuously produce the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. I encourage you to review my article and interview with Judy.

First off, no. Just no. As I discussed the last time I covered this topic, the mRNA molecules used by these vaccines don’t last long. They just don’t. Moreover, this is yet another example of antivaxxers trying to claim that vaccines cause “neuroinflammation,” no matter how tortured the rationale they have to use to do it.

Then there’s the dreaded PEG:

At least eight people have also had severe allergy-like reactions to Pfizer’s COVID-19 vaccine, prompting NIAID to convene several meetings to discuss the adverse events with officials from Pfizer and Moderna, along with the FDA and independent scientists.

Many suspect the PEG found in both Pfizer’s and Moderna’s vaccines might be the culprit causing allergic reactions and anaphylaxis. PEG has never been used in an approved vaccine, but is used in certain drugs known to cause anaphylaxis. According to Robert F. Kennedy Jr., “studies show that 1 in 7 Americans may unknowingly be at risk of experiencing an allergic reaction to PEG.”

He believes “everyone should be screened for anti-PEG antibodies before getting the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines,” adding that “It is unconscionable that, instead, the FDA and CDC are encouraging people to go ahead and risk a life-threatening anaphylactic reaction and just assume that someone will be on hand to save them.”

Too bad for antivaxxers that a recent study found that anaphylactic reactions to COVID-19 vaccines are rare, 4.7 cases/million doses for the Pfizer vaccine and 2.5 cases/million doses for the Moderna vaccine, well within the range seen for other vaccines and very uncommon, with no deaths reported.

“Toxins” here, “toxins” there, “toxins” everywhere, especially lipid nanoparticles in COVID-19 vaccines!

Certain antivaccine canards never die, no matter how many stakes you stick through their heart or how many silver bullets you shoot them with or how many headshots you’ve pumped into them (depending on whether your favorite metaphor is a vampire, werewolf, or zombie, of course). One such canard is what I like to call the “toxins gambit”. Over the years, we’ve seen it used by such antivaccine “luminaries” as Jenny McCarthy and many other antivaxxers. Basically, it consists of listing all sorts of scary-sounding ingredients that are found in vaccines and then trying to argue that vaccines are horrific cesspits of toxins because they contain trace amounts of formaldehyde, for example. It’s a truly stupid, brain dead gambit, but no matter how many times it’s slapped down, there will always be some ignorant antivaccinationist who will resurrect it. (It’s like a lot of antivaccine misinformation that way, actually, but even more so.)

Because the “toxins gambit” is such hoary old bit of antivaccine misinformation, it should surprise no one that it’s been resurrected, much like slashers like Jason, who, after seemingly having been killed at the end of the last movie, always find a way to come back to kill again in the next. Demonizing lipid nanoparticles in the most recent crop of vaccines is just its latest iteration.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

169 replies on “Lipid nanoparticles: The antivax “toxins gambit” reborn for COVID-19 vaccines”

If PEG is such a potent allergen, I would expect there would be a considerably increased incidence of anaphylactic reaction to the second dose of the vaccines. Lot of people certainly have a pretty strong reaction to the second dose, but I haven’t seen anything suggesting an allergic sort of response.

I wonder how many of the people who get agitated about the lipid nanoparticles in the vaccines think there is some great merit in concocting liposomal vitamins. I don’t know if that is still a “thing” but a few year back the intertooz were flowing full force with methods form making your own liposomal vitamin C – or at least slopping some stuff into an ultrasonic cleaner and pretending you had liposomes when the machine went “ping!”

You would also expect lots of people to have allergic reactions to colonoscopies. The bowel prep can be a little disconcerting, but I haven’t heard of people having an allergic reaction to it.

Tell people that it’s possible to have an allergic reaction to a colonoscopy and before long someone will report one.

(Sorry, got to go. My nuclear piles are playing up.)

Chris

Have you ever had a colonoscopy?

They give you so much anesthesia, that the next day you can not remember you had a colonoscopy but you feel like crap and wonder why.

Then you look at your calendar and realize you had a colonoscopy the day before. …..and then you wonder why you feel like a Mack truck ran over you. And what the hell did they do that your chest hurts so much.

Doug

The second dose causes more severe allergic reactions than the first shot…….

https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/side-effects-or-lack-of-side-effects-after-being-vaccinated-for-covid-19/

That is why the CDC says if you had an allergic reaction DO NOT GET THE SECOND SHOT…….

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/allergic-reaction.html

They are saying if you had even a mild allergic reaction to the first shot, DO NOT GET THE SECOND SHOT.

This is pretty much common news out there, you should have encountered it by now.

I wonder if anti-vaxxers/ woo-providers seek out newer technologies or lesser known concepts primarily to game people better? Most people probably have an inkling of what DNA is but mRNA is less likely to be understood therefore, it’s easier to concoct whole scenarios about. Similarly, the micro-biome, autoimmunity,
PCR, epigenetics, etc
.
As I remarked elsewhere: trolls try to sound all science-ish, tossing terminology about haphazardly and citing research but at heart, anyone who advocates anti-vax is definitely not science based because:
— vaccines are not unsafe or untested
— they don’t cause autism
— autism is caused by genes and largely prenatal conditions
all based on voluminous research, evidence, data, too powerful to dismiss.. They can’t have it both ways.,

Here’s a quote from an abomination of an article from Popular Mechanics from November. Some bozo has quoted it in comments on CBC articles a couple of times:

So-called “messenger” genetics do just what they say on the tin: deliver genetic information to parts of your body, usually in order to overwrite or erase the genetic information that’s already there.

That nonsense really deserves a blistering letter to the editor of Popular Mechanics. The whole article looks like something from a “writer” rather than someone who actually knows something.

It sounds so much like the type of material I survey:
they pick up snippets of information and stitch them together piecemeal it’s one of the “joys” of reading the self-educated .
You can’t glue together an entire scientific discipline of such parts or become well informed on your own because it’s not the 17th century anymore when things were rather basic. ( see PRN, NaturalNews). It’s even worse if you are biased against science with an axe to grind. ( anti-vax lore).They focus in on one shiny pebble and forget about the mountain in front of them.

There are courses and textbooks. Or professional educators’ websites ( e.g. Prof . Racaniello who could benefit scoffers here) .

This is so bad that it is not even wrong.

Caroline Delbert is a writer, book editor, researcher, and avid reader. She’s also an enthusiast of just about everything.

Not enough of an avid reader or an enthusiast to bother reading the link she has to the Britannica in her story.

@Chris

Yes, just after I wrote that I went back to the article and clicked on the author’s name (Yay! I wins the Orac IQ test challenge!), finding what you posted.

I’ve encountered a lot of stuff like that in the past. There was an “explainer” website of some sort that I browsed around a few times. I don’t recall the name now, and I think it is gone. I read a bunch of articles on tetanus. They were uniformly rubbish except for one well written and accurate one. That one turned out to have been written by our very own René Najera. At the time it took me awhile to recall from where I recognized the name.

Well, Micelle is all like r/dontstickyourdickinthat but I just want to know more about how bitcoin enriches these lipid manufacurers.

Antivaxers shouldn’t complain about lipid nanoparticles in Covid-19 vaccines.

They’re essential for coating microchips, whose sharp edges otherwise could nick blood vessel walls and promote thrombosis.

It is now nearly 9:30 pm here and WTF CNN? There was a hearing on $important stuff going on and ya’ll just cut to wall-to-wall over r/idiotsincars Tiger Wood??? All damn day? I don’t even like golf. I hope he gets amputated so he can raise a bunch of pity-cash for people who don’t golf well but don’t do much other stuff very good either!

Well, I’m feeling pretty terrible about that comment now. I assumed it was just another celebrity drug/drink fueled outburst and that he mearly had a broken leg. I wake up to hearing all about ‘compartment syndrome’. I hope he pulls through alright.

And I certainly won’t detract from his accomplishment — apparently, he the GOAT — as there was a time when a black man was not allowed on the course. Much like how black people in the US were often known as ‘non-swimmers’ because racism; When laws changed, they just shut down the pools and made it hard to learn thus be able to pass the knowledge down.

But it’s golf ; so called because all the other four letter words were taken — Raymond Floyd

Perhaps my bias is amplified by having had somewhat of a celebrity {at least among some other classmates} golfer attending the same high school. I didn’t know the guy but there were… occasions…, where whatever group I was with, someone would pipe up “did you hear what so and so pulled off?”

“Why, no. I can’t say that I have.”

. You’ve got to be kidding me. Just making a comment fixes the illusion on my side even though I’m in moderate. It’s just done it again. CF rolling back 8 hours. Comm’on, man! They are fooling me and I don’t like it. I hate this man-in-the-middle crap.. It plays into my paranoid nature. I know I pledged to stop bitching about CF but here I am bitching about CF — blame it on my alcoholism .. or penchant for licking the wrong kinds of toads.. I don’t care anymore. Getting raped by big tech {or the suspected NSA} is not a good look for me.

That was an interesting run around the “PEG in the brain” problem.

I wrote about PEG and how it does not need to wind up in the brain as nano-particles… and you talk about “nanoparticle lipids” instead.

PEG IS NOT A LIPID, IT IS A PLASTIC. It may be a liquid plastic, but it is still a plastic. Even this plastic surgery group admits PEG is a plastic, and they use it in their practice……

https://beverlyhillsmd.com/polyethylene-is-it-safe/

There are a ton of articles on PubMed about nanoparticles not being good for the blood/brain barrier and that things that do not belong in the brain, like plastic, which can cause big problems….

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28904346/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19812977/

In this article gold nanoparticles caused Alzheimer like amyloid formation…..

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26782664/

You know there are somethings which should really not go into the brain, like nanoparticles.

Oh, you can go on PubMed and find all sorts of articles on using gold nanoparticles to fight brain cancer, but what might be the use of killing a cancer if you develop an Alzheimer’s like disease?

Plastic, our oceans are being clogged with it. Now let’s just fill our brains with the liquid kind. Joining PEG with a lipid just might make it more acceptable to our brain cells…..which are made of lipids!

And do not forget that the AAAAI article I linked to in that other topic, which quoted that 72% of people were found to have antibodies to PEG. It is never about the lipid, the plastic is the problem.

This article provides ZERO FACTUAL information on why we should not be concerned with possible cationic lipids toxicity in the mRNA vaccines. The problem was well known in the last 10 years of research and, as the author quotes, studies were abandoned because of the toxicity effects. What specifically changed to make the cationic lipids safe in the new vaccines? Is it the lower dose? Is it a new improved lipids formula? Is it a shorter half-life of administered lipids in human body? Are there studies or at least some indications that the LONGER TERM effects are acceptable? You find no answers to these questions in this article, but plenty of political rhetoric and pretty but irrelevant pictures from a biology textbook

Silly antivax troll, we now have the results of 100 million doses of these vaccines to demonstrate that the lipid nanoparticles used are very safe, and before that we had phase 3 clinical trials with a total of over 70,000 patients between them to show their safety.🙄🤦🏻‍♂️

Look, I just want to understand why do you think these vaccines are safe LONG TERM (6+ months, or even years). Almost all of the 100 million vaccinations happen in the last 2 months. I don’t know if anyone follows up on the 70k trial participants now (do you? if yes, let me know), but even these have less than 1 year of data.

I think it’s obvious you provided no new information regarding the long term safety of the mRNA vaccines (beyond 6 months). What we know so far:
– Moderna (and others) were concerned about lipids toxicity, stopped studies
– the mRNA vaccines use similar lipids
– there are no public studies on where in body the lipids go besides the muscle cells and how long they stay
– mass vaccination started only recently and it’s too early to conclude anything about long term effects

I only want to make an informed decision on what vaccine to take, but instead of factual information I get “antivaxxers this and antivaxxers that and silly troll”

Why don’t you write a blog post about these concerns regarding the Pfizer vaccine from Dr. Vanessa Schmidt-Krueger, a microbiologist from Berlin

http://enformtk.u-aizu.ac.jp/howard/gcep_dr_vanessa_schmidt_krueger/

If you do, can I ask you to respond less to who says something and why, but WHAT they actually said

Antivaxxers would far rather millions of people die than ever admit they are wrong.

But then, every religion is built on the suffering of others.

I just want to understand why do you think these vaccines are safe LONG TERM (6+ months, or even years).

This is a known antivaxx claim. And when the evidence comes in, people like you will keep pushing the safe period back.
All I will say is this: you are the one making the extraordinary claim that these vaccines might, and I stress might, cause long term harm. It is therefore incumbent on you to provide a plausible hypothesis as to how they could cause harm.

Damon Diggs makes the following claim: “there are no public studies on where in body the lipids go besides the muscle cells and how long they stay”

This is patently false. This was studied extensively in the development of other drugs using lipids.

It was a long road to optimizing lipid nanoparticle formulations for nucleic acid delivery, which is perhaps best exemplified by the development of patisiran. Patisiran is a lipid nanoparticle-based short interfering RNA (siRNA) drug for the treatment of polyneuropathies induced by hereditary transthyretin amyloidosis, and it was the first siRNA-based drug approved by the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in 2018. To achieve clinical efficacy, every aspect of the lipid nanoparticle formulation had to be optimized, and more than 300 ionizable lipids had to be screened. Furthermore, all key steps of the lipid nanoparticle journey in the body, from the site of administration to the release of the siRNA payload into the cytoplasm of hepatocytes, had to be understood before clinical trials could begin. Importantly, translational criteria, such as a size range of 100 nm or less, efficient encapsulation, low surface charge, robust, scalable manufacturing processes and adequate product stability were achieved in the development of this therapeutic. This knowledge has certainly contributed to the rapid development of COVID-19 mRNA vaccines.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00281-4

Julian

Did you go to the link and read? If so you have the answer .

The doctor reporting to the German commission outlined the problems with the vaccines. While she was speaking of the BioTech vaccine, the information is clearly applicable to all mRNA vaccines.

Yes, and all of the “problems” they outlined were not really “problems” at all. I’ve been meaning to write about that letter…

@ Aelxa

siRNA and mRNA are two very different molecules

So what? The question was about the vector, not the payload.

@Damon Diggs Lipids are fatty acids or their derivatives. Olive oil is hardly toxic. Cationic just mean charge state. You should read basic chemistry.
Your link is about antivax lawyer similar to Robert Kennedy Jr. He just repeats old claims, like DNA will somehow just sneak into genome.

So I decided to dig through Damon’s link and see what I could glean. fortunately half of it seems to be the German version. Here are a few snippets.

VSK is Dr. Vanessa Schmidt-Krueger
RF is Dr. Reiner Fuellmich, who launched this “extra-parliamentary inquiry committee”. He is “a consumer protection trial lawyer in California and Germany”.

“VSK: ( Trust me!) I’m a cell biologist” /s

“the BioNTech vaccine that is currently already being used is not highly purified” Ref the EMA report. (It was good enough for the EMA, but not for me.) /s

“there are all the technologies and cellular operations described: only specialists like myself can really understand them.” (I don’t know how I can explain to a lawyer like you or the uninformed general public why there are problems that the scientists and medical specialists at the EMA completely overlooked.) /s

“normally vaccine development takes a very long time. It’s not just the clinical phase: with this vaccine, it’s set at three times two and a half years, i.e., three phases of 2.5 years each plus the evaluation phase, which makes 7 ½ years in total. And then one shouldn’t forget that the production optimisation is also important, at least a year would surely be needed for that. That hasn’t taken place at all.”

Even if thousands of people are dying every day, we should have taken our time and run them sequentially like we usually do instead of overlapping them once we got the efficacy and a few months of safety data.

“in the clinical phase the product, i.e. the RNA, was produced with completely different techniques to how it is being produced now.”


“During the clinical phase … 78% of the RNA was good … now they have found new batches with only 55% RNA integrity”

etc., etc. —> they should stop all production until they can convince me they are doing it right.

There is some speculation about DNA contamination and loss of function ???

“So it is theoretically possible that this linearised DNA that is in there as a contaminant could integrate into the host’s cell nucleus in a dividing cell”

Is there any evidence that this “linearised DNA” actually gets into the lipid nanoparticles? How is it magically more dangerous than the DNA in all the DNA viruses, bacteria and other microorganisms that are in your body all the time???

“RF: … You have just said that the EMA has specified several requirements, and when they have fulfilled them they should come back again. So how come vaccinations are already taking place?”

VSK: That’s a question I’d ask you!

Such political pressure.

Dr. H: That’s criminal, unbelievable. Terrifying.

(Thousands of people are dying, but who’s counting? /s)

WW: But these are processes that are probably not the same in all patients. … if a million or so and so many thousands of people are vaccinated, then one can perhaps say with a certain degree of probability after 10 or 20 years whether something will happen or not.

RF: If we wait until July we won’t have any Israelis left as far as I can tell. Holy Shit.”

(Oh no, the Israelis are back. /s )

…and on and on and on …
“I will refer to this Public Assessment Report – I have to say that the raw data are lacking, they aren’t in the report, which I find disappointing.

RF: Peter Doshi is challenging them on that.”

3 raspberries for Peter Doshi
“Dr. H: The second vaccination comes on top of that after 30 days …”

Actually it’s 21 days for the Pfizer and I’m getting my second dose this morning!

…speculation about rat studies that used 3 doses of the vaccine instead of 2.

“RF: The horror story needs to be complete.”

I swear I am not making this up!!

And it goes on.

However, I need to go get my vaccine.

Personally I trust the evidence from the thousands of people in the stage 3 trials and the follow-up on the millions who have been vaccinate more than I worry about VSK’s speculations.

Oh silly me. When Damon was going on and on about lipids and lipid toxicity, I should have known he actually was talking about nucleic acids.

@Aarno Syvänen: “Lipids are fatty acids or their derivatives. Olive oil is hardly toxic. Cationic just mean charge state. You should read basic chemistry.”

Oh sure, laugh now, but you won’t be laughing when the Kmart Rouge drags you out and shoots you in the paddy field.

@Diggs: “The problem was well known”

Ok then, so stop waving that Hitchen’s Razor before you slice your own head off, and provide the relevant PubMed citations.

“as the author quotes, studies were abandoned”

Aaaand we’ve just found your problem: you blindly swallow everything that Kennedy and Mercola feed you. (See: Coprophagia.) Because Big Pharma always lies, millionaire antivaxxers never fib, and something-something-PROFIT!!!!!

Our latest dissembling douchenozzle can’t even pretend honest ignorance here, because “Mercola” is right there in black 30pt text, the first word in the third subheading down, and Jr mentioned in the second paragraph under it. So either it didn’t even read the subheads, or it did read them and doesn’t care; but either way it knows full well who Mercola and Kennedy are and is just baiting now for responses.

And this is the difference between Big Pharma and antivaxxers:

Pharmas sometimes lie and sometimes hurt people. And when they do, everyone here excoriates them. Because that behavior is utterly evil and wrong, and ought to result in life sentences for all those who perpetrate it.

Whereas antivaxxers always lie and always hurt people, because their cruelty gives them a massive hard-on. And when they do, all the other antivaxxers gleefully join in, because they adore being evil too.

At least Big Pharma only abuses people for profit. Antivaxxers abuse for profit and power; and because they really enjoy it.

I know some folk here don’t like me using “deviant” to describe movement antivaxxers (because other connotations) but I genuinely can’t think of another word that encapsulates so precisely what they are. They belong in the same category as Catholic priests pressing altar boys for blowjobs. And yet, society turns a conveniently blind eye to these abuses… because it suits it to do so; and that is more evil and wrong than even the worst sins of Pharma.

Damon

It is obvious orac did not bother reading your link, if he did he might notice that there were multiple problems with the mass manufacturing of these mRNA vaccines that the docwerereported and was outlining to the German commission.

The most worrying is the contamination of the virus with DNA that should be totally eliminated so only mRNA is in vaccine. In testing of the manufacturer initial developed vaccine this was strictly enforced, but in speeding up manufacturing processes DNA is slipping through.

This is definitely not good. It may also explain a friend’s reaction after getting the Pfizer vaccine a week ago. She as had constant hives and itching occurring and is miserable. If DNA was in the vaccine it can explain her never-ending reaction.

And saying that someone is a silly troll, because look and see we are shooting these mRNA vaccines into people and no mass dieoff of recipients has occurred is facetious. And a total non-response to the questions you brought forward. It is merely an effort made for you to “Go Away!”.

When someone immediately goes into name calling-mode, then you know they have no real legs to stand on when it comes to their position.

I expect name calling from has, that is his MO, he exalts in bashing people. He never has a positive input to offer, so just ignore him. Everything he writes has no redeeming value.

Oh, and any questioning of vaccines will put you into the “antivaxxer” category, even if you use and take vaccines yourself. Kennedy and Mercola are put by them in that group, and orac and friends assume anyone who questions vaccines has read and gotten their information directly from those persons websites.

The idea that one might independently come to conclusions after reading medical studies and reports is totally foreign to their thinking.

To them to is all a united conspiracy to eliminate all vaccines.

Trying to convince them it is a question of vaccine safety means nothing, if you question any vaccine you are an “antivaxxer” and a “troll” for posing any objection to their expressed Worldview.

So go to it and keep writing, I will enjoy your words. And thanks for the link, it was highly informative and brought forth some problems with the mRNA vaccines I was completely unaware of.

Thanks. I figured as much about the name calling by the blogger and his cohort, but I really don’t care about that.

I was digging through some literature. I could not find the source for that rats study that Dr.Krueger quotes, but found another one, in which they did not observe rats weight loss, but saw quite a few changes from the control group

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1549963414004274

Admittedly, the lipids dosage were significantly higher in those rats experiments, from 10mg/kg (about 1mg per 100g rat) compared to about 0.4mg in one Pfizer dose for an adult and were administered as an IV. They say an approved mRNA drug Doxil uses about the same large amount of lipids (x100-x500 more compared to the vaccine). However, the rat study is short term only (24/48 hours and 1 week)

Another approved lipid nanoparticle drug is Onpattro (patisiran). The dosage is 30mg every 3 weeks as an IV, so also significantly higher than Pfizer vaccine, but I also think the lipids are quite different

So my working theory is that FDA and EMA looked at the amount of lipids in a dose and said, you know what, 0.4mg (or 1.8mg for Moderna) is probably too small to cause any problems, based on those other approved drugs with 10-100 times more of NPs. However I don’t really know if that is enough of a justification

“I expect name calling from has”

If the boot fits.

Meanwhile what do you brink? Nothing but a torrent of sophistry and pretend expertise. How many times now have you been caught here in a lie of your own incompetent making, and rolled on regardless? I’ve not kept count. Name calling is all you deserve, because it is all you have earned.

That many of the commenters here repeatedly, patiently take time to explain all the ways in which you are dead wrong, and here is exactly why, is not done for your benefit; it is done for the benefit of those who are genuinely interested in learning. Your only interest is in jerking off on other people for your own gratification and glory. So take your new BFF and go 69 somewhere else, you malicious waste of human skin.

@Diggs: “I was digging through some literature”

Uh-huh, and your ability to read and understand and assess that literature critically is…what, exactly? Degree and institution will do to start with.

See, I certainly don’t have the technical knowledge and expertise to assess this science, which is pretty advanced and highly specialized. So I don’t pretend that I am qualified to do so, and instead stick to what I am competent to do, which is recognizing you ridiculous fakers and mocking you with finely crafted insults.

Yet another pretender completely up himself at how clever he’s being, seeking only reinforcement of his own fixed beliefs.

Yet you aren’t the slightest bit good at faking it: the only ones you fool are yourselves. Total lack of self-awareness meet grandiose delusions and malicious child-killing cult.

At least I’m good at one thing. You aren’t even that.

@Damon Diggs From your link:
“Cationic liposomes were prepared from N-[1-(2,3-dioleyl)propyl]-N,N,N-trimethylammonium-chloride (DOTAP, synthetic) and cholesterol (plant source) “. Not only doses were very high, the compound was utterly different. Try to find something relevant.
@Aelxa You still believe that DNA just sneaks into genome. This would be very dangerous. Actually, to add something to genome an relevant enzyme is needed.
Hives are normal immune reaction, though it should not go on long time

The most worrying is the contamination of the virus with DNA

It’s been a while since there’s been a winner of the Homologous Recombinaltion Tiniker Award.

Every time I see one of these “But the RNA!” or “But the DNA!” things it just reinforces my belief that none of the people saying such things have a hint of a shred of an iota of a clue about what viruses are and what they do.

@doug: “it just reinforces my belief that none of the people saying such things have a hint of a shred of an iota of a clue”

You are perfectly correct in this. Your only error is assuming they care. They don’t.

It is all theatre to them; a courtier’s reply on crack cocaine. Marks are not awarded for correctness but for the size and enthusiasm of the shit fountain they rain on your head. And, you have to admit, they are good at what they do.

However, the rat study is short term only (24/48 hours and 1 week)

Did you stop to ask yourself what the normal weight of a lab rat is?

@Narad: “Did you stop to ask yourself what the normal weight of a lab rat is?”

Is it the same as a duck?

@ has

Is it the same as a duck?

If you throw either of them in water, they both float. So I guess they are.

has

You are a zero personality and only have a filthy mouth that you use with no redeeming input or qualities at all.

Your poor parents must of had a trip raising you. Likely you were suspended many times for bullying at school and had been a real trial to them. They have my sympathies.

Why don’t you got back to your closet and practice your obscene self-gratification in private, where you belong. Where you enjoy doing the nasty all you desire.

Damon

The mRNA vaccines use lipids that are combined with PEG, which is a liquid plastic.

There are clear studies that these PEGylated lipids are a problem……

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6598536/

PEG is a problem for people, one study showed 73% of the people tested had antibodies to PEG….

https://aacijournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13223-016-0172-7

The claim that a lipid is a lipid and so it is safe like eating extra virgin olive oil is a bunch of bull puckies. The PEGylated lipids are not safe according to studies showing immune problems.

Aarno

Did you read his link?

” this linerized DNA that is there as a contaminant could integrate into the host’s cell nuculus in a dividing cell, linearized DNA is optimal for integration.”

Dr Schmidt-Kruger is a cell biologist and am sure she knows what she is talking about.

Hey Alexa, I have done DNA immunizations.
I never saw “hives and itching” in any of my subjects.
(I am sorry your friend had a bad reaction; it must have been very uncomfortable for her.)

What I did get was a nice, specific T-cell response to the DNA I’d immunized with (little bits of HIV, to be specific.)

So I think it is unlikely that, in the extremely unlikely chance the mRNA vaccine was contaminated with DNA (very, very unlikely, given the purification columns), you friend’s reaction was to the DNA and not something like one of the inactive ingredients. Or she was just unlucky and having a reaction to something else entirely and it was just coincidence that it happened right after her vaccination. Could have been the carpet in the vaccine center, or something else equally random.

Damon

The rat study Dr Schmidt-Kruger was talking about appears to be an initial study of the BioNTech vaccine on rats which looks like was in the report to the EMA.

Basicly the cationic lipid in the injected vaccine caused cell death in the muscle at the injection site. More concerning was the further damage to the Liver portal vein.

The doctor says if a person has Liver problems or the person is a drinker, there may be further Liver problems as the Liver has to process and eliminate the lipids in the vaccine.

Dr Schmidt-Kruger was clear that this mRNA injection was designed and used initially for Cancer treatment, where because of the different cell structure of the cancer cells, most of the injection went to the cancer cells which were destroyed by the cationic lipid due to it’s positive charge damaging the cells.

She says it is a great breakthrough for Cancer treatment, but is not intended for making a “vaccine”, since it is a genetic therapy. A short-term genetic therapy that does not cause permanent cell changes, but still a genetic therapy.

I was concerned about the PEGylated lipid coating, but the inner cationic lipid is a real cell destroyer, and since it causes DNA strand damage new cancer cells could arise from this vaccination. Dr S-K referred to studies where lung and other organ damage caused DNA strand damage that caused cancer cells to arise.

And I have not even gotten through reading more than half of the article.

Cancer runs in my family. My paternal grandmother, my dad and my eldest brother have all died of Cancer. So I am definitely passing on this “vaccine”.

I guess I’ll go back to reading this article, I can not wait to see what else she said. I should just watch the video since I am fluent in German.

JustAtech

No, it was the vaccination.

She developed a huge bump at the injection site the size of a small plum, that lasted for six days. And it was hives and itching in various different parts of her body within an hour of the injection. She is still dealing with hives and itching which is just crazy.

But Dr Schmidt-Kruger says the lipids can last in the body for 40-50 days, so if it is the PEGylated lipid she could react for a while yet.

I am now leaning to a PEG reaction. She is going to see an allergist to be tested for an allergy to PEG. And she said she is not getting a second shot, no matter what anyone says.

“So my working theory is that FDA and EMA looked at the amount of lipids in a dose and said, you know what, 0.4mg (or 1.8mg for Moderna) is probably too small to cause any problems, based on those other approved drugs with 10-100 times more of NPs. However I don’t really know if that is enough of a justification”

So, you just assume that no studies were done, huh? Did you even bother to check? Are you aware that the EMA put out an extensive evaluation of each vaccine candidate? I’m linking to the EPARs for the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines. Pay close attention to Section 2.3, as it contains the studies you hypothesized hadn’t been done (why you thought this, I have no idea but whatever). Yes, multiple studies using the candidate LNP configuration, some with the target mRNA, others with a surrogate payload.

Moderna
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/assessment-report/covid-19-vaccine-moderna-epar-public-assessment-report_en.pdf

Pfizer
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/assessment-report/comirnaty-epar-public-assessment-report_en.pdf

By the way, if you actually read the report, you might notice that all of the concerns were brought up and satisfactorily addressed prior to authorization. As is usual, some of the concerns led to some punchlist items, but they were primarily providing additional documentation. In fact, the Pfizer commercial batch’s mRNA integrity and DNA residuals were brought up to the trial standards by November 25, weeks before any authorization was issued. (NB: the initial commercial batches are test batches to verify quality at commercial scales and are not actually made available as vaccines).

@Aelxa MRNA vaccine components are here:
https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/360054190632-What-are-the-components-of-the-Pfizer-vaccine-shot-
https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/360054190912-What-are-the-components-of-the-Moderna-vaccine-shot-
Damon Diggs paper was about DOSAT, neither vaccine does not contain it. Doses were ridiculously high, too (equivalent 7 gr shot for an adult)
@Damon Diggs Perhaps you should learn virology yourself. Aelxa has made many posts about retroviruses entering into genome. SARS CoV2 is not a retrovirus.

@Aelxa Remember when I told you that allergy and immunity are not same thing ?
Now you again conflate them, speaking about antibodies against PEG.

@Aelxa I guess nuculus mean nucleus. It is a cell organelle, that contains among other things, DNA. Integrating into DNA would be another thing. If she does not know even that, she does not know anything.

Athaic

Rats DO NOT FLOAT, they will sink if they are not swimming.

On the other had ducks do not need to move to float. They will actually float when stationary.

You never did any stress testing on rats, have you? I certainly did at university.😜

Aarno et al

All the mRNA vaccines use cationic lipids, no mater what name they call their fat version, they all carry a positive charge that is part of getting the cell to make the spike protein. The cationic lipid is the vector…….

https://cen.acs.org/business/outsourcing/Lipids-unsung-COVID-19-vaccine/99/web/2021/02

There a multitude of companies making money off the production of these vaccines, not just Pfizer, J&J, etc who are producing the vaccines.

W Kevin

If you read the link Dr Schmidt-Kruger is questioning the EMA’s evaluation of the various vaccines, saying they seemed to recognize the problems, but then discounted the problems.

It reminds me of Andrew Cuomo, he knows jokes of a sexual nature is sexual harassment when expressed on the job….but then admits he told sexual jokes at work but it was not sexual harassment.

Apparently because he told the sexual jokes, it was just “joking around” and not sexual harassment.

I think you all need to just admit that alot is sliding by ……because this is a pandemic.

But that does not make it safe or right.

As they are saying now “The risks are worth the outcome if the vaccines eliminate COVID-19”.

I guess the risks are just fine since the ones saying this expect the vaccine to not be a problem for them or their particular loved ones.

Me, I will stick to masks, face shields, physical distancing and not going to the store more than once every two weeks or even less.

Aarno

All cationic lipids cause a cell death cascade and apoptosis.

Any cationic lipid that gets inside a cell will cause the death of that cell, so saying the amount is so little means there is less cell death but it still happens.

It keeps it one sure way to make certain the cell implodes shortly after putting out the COVID-19 spike fragments. Making the gene treatment temporary. Planned cellular death.

But then I read up to 40% of cells treated this way can survive without cell death occurring….. hmmmm, oh well not my problem since I am passing on this “vaccine”.

Aarno

I did not equate allergy with immunity, but allergies occur when your immune system reacts to a substance.

And people are allergic to PEG as the previous posts on allergy to PEG are clear on the fact.

It is no different than a person with an egg allergy not taking an egg-based vaccine.

And as the one study showed 72% of the study participants already had antibodies to PEG.

How hard is that for you to understand? PEG is now being used in foods, cosmetics and medications of all sorts. The more you are exposed to a substance, the more likely people will develop an allergy to it.

Latex was everywhere back in the 1960s and few people were allergic to it. Now hospitals are Latex-free because so many people developed a Latex allergy and it was easier to be Latex-free than deal with the legal problems.

Allergies are produced immunoglobulin E (IgE) antibodies the body makes.

And looky here….a Japanese article on people developing an allergic reaction to a flu vaccine. ……..

https://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0091-6749(15)01095-7

So yes, vaccines can cause allergies to it to develop.

@Aelxa: “Why don’t you got back to your closet and practice your obscene self-gratification in private, where you belong. Where you enjoy doing the nasty all you desire.”

I’m British, and our only export industry still worth a damn is our immaculately hand-crafted insults, so you will have to do a lot better than that to get a rise out of me. Frankly, your attempts to do science were funnier.

3/10, Painfully Amateur.

It is no different than a person with an egg allergy not taking an egg-based vaccine.

“These findings strongly suggest that the IVA events were caused by allergy to some component of the influenza vaccine but not to its egg component.”

@ Aelxa

Rats DO NOT FLOAT

Eh, float, swim…
No, wait.

Oh the horror. You don’t know the movie “Monty Python and the Holy Grail”? Someone did you a great disservice by never recommending it to you.
You say you are always willing to educate yourself. Go watch the movie. We were making a reference to the witch trial scene.

Athaic

The day I watch Monty Python is like never. I do not find them funny. But juvenile males sure do love them.

@Aelxa You cannot test “cationic lipid”. If you want safety data, you must test the specific compound,
If a disintegrates because of cationic lipids, it cannot produce the spike protein. It would be very counterproductive,
If dig deeper into your transfection link, you would notice that making linearized DNA required a specific bacterial enzyme, with proper concentration.

Has certainly has got the picture!

Whatever you call it: masquerade, cargo cult, cosplay, pretense, playacting, LARP, BS artistry.
I used to regale readers with lists of malapropisms, mis-pronunciations and other indicators of deceit and mis-appropriation of expertise by Grand Master Woo ( PRN) so I think that enlightening readers to these manoeuvers and holding them up for ridicule is important**

Right here, we observe trolls pontificating about subjects that they know superficially because they glanced at an internet article or cherry picked a study:
–someone discusses autism being caused by vaccines in toddlers when neuroscientists have been mapping brain architecture for decades PRENATALLY through multiple avenues of research. It’s COMMON KNOWLEDGE if you study the brain!
— discussing women’s roles in politics, a troll gets the total number of representatives wrong by at least double digits ( recent)
— they talk about how DNA is affected by vaccines and give elaborated details about biological events
— they confabulate personal stories that just seem “off” somehow- secret information, great abilities that we never see demonstrated, serendipitous encounters that “prove’ their ideas, accusations and predictions about people they never met ( e.g. commenters, sceptics, well known people)

Insight into many of these faux pas obviously require background in life sciences to a degree but others betray the poseur easily and are easy to check or identify on the spot such as their attitude and readiness to blame the Establishment..

**- the “expert” on physiology mis-pronounces words like amygdala wrong and stumbles clumsily over corpus callosum and NEURONS!
–the “PhD” can’t seem to recognise spelling patterns of names in the foreign languages usually necessary for graduate degrees in his age group and can’t pronounce cities’ names like Leicester or “Auckland* correctly ( I swear!)
— the art “expert” carries on about the great Italian painter, TITAN!
— as a historian, he tells how as a child, he often visited the site of Hamilton’s fatal duel in WEST VIRGINIA! ( obviously, he didn’t even see the play)
— all human interactions are called “energy exchanges”
— “epigenetics” is something like The Secret
ad infinitum

Denice

The House of Representatives has 435 members, a number set by law….

https://www.house.gov/representatives

And corpus collosum is pronounced “core-pus cul o sum” and amygdala is said ” am ig du la” , I got a perfect score on the Medical Terminology final at university.

Hamilton and Burr’s duel was in Weehawken New Jersey, not far from where I was born and grew up

Leicester is pronounced “Lester”, and Titan is pronounced “tisch in”. I learn the proper pronunciation of Titan when getting my Fine Arts degree.

I confabulate nothing, I merely have a more extensive life experience than you, baby. Not to mention individual degrees in Psychology, Sociology, Respiratory Therapy and another in Fine Arts. I go back to university about every 10 years, since I enjoy learning.

If someone reads a study and then asks a question only to be told they are a “silly troll”….. that is highly indicative of a closed mind that wants to pontificate without questioning.

There is a reason we have safer cars than in the 1960s, Ralph Nader made the traffic statistics and information available to the public, regarding the unsafe cars made then. And improvements were made.

So the blanket thought field on this site that all vaccines are not to be questioned, merely perpetuates poor quality vaccines.

The only reason we have a dead polio vaccine was because the public in the US was upset at the rates of people coming down with polio from the live vaccine. A live vaccine still used overseas that still causes polio.

No vaccine is perfect, and never will be. But they can be made safer and better.

And the doctor who reported to the German commission was stating valid concerns, including the fact that the mRNA vaccine doses are excessive and more people could be vaccinated than the Pfizer company says the six dose vial will vaccinate. She states profits as the motive.

Poor quality control in rushed vaccines is not a minor matter. No where does the doctor state these vaccines are to be totally banned. Her concern was public health safety.

Titan is pronounced “tisch in”. I learn the proper pronunciation of Titan when getting my Fine Arts degree.

And here was I, thinking that Titan is pronounced tai-tin whereas Tittan is pronounced ti-shn

Pfooey! (pronounced foo ee) I got all the codes right and spelled it wrong. This time I’ll probably botch the codes.

Titian

I do not respond to trolls- but this is for readers;
anyone here can check these out by digging through RI. Or actually reading my comment.

Aelxa wrote recently about women in the US Congress and missed the true number. by….. a lot. IIRC she said ’71’ or so when there are over 100 in the House and 24 in the Senate ( 2021) Easy to look up or recall from news reports.
The point is she speaks ex cathedra and gets it very wrong
Also:
she carries on about references I made about an entirely different poseur– an internet radio woo-meister : nothing to do with her.
She has many degrees. So? Who doesn’t around here?
And I have no experience in the world? How would she know? This is her imagination not reality.

As I said, they give themselves away..

.

Aarno

Antibodies are involved in allergic reactions, immunoglobulin E )IgE to be exact, and this has been known for 60 years…..

https://www.asmscience.org/content/journal/microbiolspec/10.1128/microbiolspec.AID-0006-2012

And vaccines can cause allergic reactions….

https://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091-6749(15)01095-7/fulltext

Perhaps you need to brush up on allergy and vaccines yourself, since you seem totally unaware that one can have an allergic reaction to a vaccine.

Doug

Titian is not written Tittan. Your extra “t” should be an “i” .

You are not a very good English teacher either. What is your excuse?

Doug

Titan is pronounced “tie ton” , like “tie” up a “ton” of twigs. In no way is an “a” ever pronounced like an “i” .

At least in my part of the country and in England, too.

@Aelxa: “I enjoy learning.”

That’s great to hear! Let us know when you start!

(And this, ladies and puddingbrains, is how you do an insult.)

Narad

Since even Google has no listings for “Tiniker” please do expand your reference

@Aelxa Of course I know that vaccines can cause allergic reactions. That is why severe allergic reaction to any vaccine component is a contraindication.
You yourself do not know difference between IgE and IgG antibodies. Source of your claim that 72% of people have antibodies against PEG seems to be this:
Analysis of Pre-existing IgG and IgM Antibodies against Polyethylene Glycol (PEG) in the General Population
Qi Yang, Timothy M. Jacobs, Justin D. McCallen, Dominic T. Moore, Justin T. Huckaby, Jasmine N. Edelstein, and Samuel K. Lai
Anal. Chem. 2016, 88, 23, 11804–11812
Publication Date:November 2, 2016
https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.analchem.6b03437
So these are definitely not IgE antibodies. If one speaks generally about antibodies, IgG or IgM are meant.
Interesting thing is desensitization therapy is based is based on building an immune response to the allergen. So these 72% could very well be desensitized.

Aarno

There are more studies that people have PEG antibodies. ………

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7022322/

Since concentrated man-made novel chemicals are not substances the human immune system has had to deal with before the 1940s IgE is not normally involved to a great degree with chemical allergy.

Thus other factors are employed by the immune system, and anaphylaxis does occur in the absence of IgE, and IgG and IgM instead…….

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/systemic-anaphylaxis

@Aelxa I do know that other than IgE antibodies can cause allergy. You yourself made that claim, so I mentioned them.
I do know, too, that vaccines can cause allergic reactions. Severe allergy to a vaccine component is a contraindication.
Point was that 72% has antibodies against PEG does not mean 72% is allergic against them. Actually, it tells nothing about allergy.
I mentioned, desensitization therapy. Building adaptive immune response against allergen actually cures allergy

the art “expert” carries on about the great Italian painter, TITAN!

There’s a Wolfgang Pauli joke with the right spelling.

Narad

Did you ever read the saying about this without sin throwing the first stone,

Oh, Great Tiniker. Award yourself a Tiniker Award

Doug

I am not responsible for the phone’s auto-correct function. Though I can not find nuculus in the dictionary.

Some regarding TITIAN, auto-correct keeps changing it to TITAN. And COVID-19 it keeps changing to COVUD-19.

But then Denice’s device did the same thing……yet you FAILED to act like Narad and point it out.

If you want to be an English teacher, then be consistent. Otherwise you are just nit-picking.

Did you ever read the saying about this [sic] without sin throwing the first stone,

Oh, Great Tiniker. Award yourself a Tiniker Award

I see that you didn’t understand the reference. Responding with gibberish, I suppose, is par for the course.

Aelxa
Do you really expect anyone to believe that auto correct on your phone was the cause of “nuculus?” That is a very common mispronunciation of “nucleus.”
Does the editor on your phone not have the ability to override auto correct?

I can find absolutely nothing to suggest that Titan is pronounced … “ton.” And you will note I spelled the first syllable as “tai” not “ta” as you seem to imply.

Pfooey is an eptithet. I can spell it any way I like. Sometimes I use the Nero Wolfe spelling “pfui.”

I’m not nit picking. I’m openly ridiculing you!

Go away and lean to pronounce
Xhosa and qongqothwane

Doug

Nucleus is Latin, a language I took in secondary school for three years. If you think I do not know it’s proper pronunciation or spelling you are quite wrong.

And my phone does all sorts of weird spellings. God knows where it comes from. Even worse I fix the stuff and then send it, but the corrections are not in the received item. On my kidney list we all laugh about it, since the others have the same thing happen to them. Likely it is some sort of bug we all got on the phone.

Which is why I generally make no big deal about it, except here youall have the habit of nit-picking as a last resort tactic. Except has, he has only the one response.

Farad

What? You mean John 8:7 about the one without sin casting the first stone?

Of course I understand the reference, and there is not person here who has never had a misspelling is my point.

I left the auto-correct spelling of your name, by now it should know that I never use the word Farad, but it keeps changing it. It also likes the “Doritos” instead of “Dorit” spelling. And “orac” always becomes “oracle”.

I typed “those” , not “this”,….. but please keep throwing stones. It shows the full breathe and full span of your pettiness regarding spelling. You should go get a job as a proofreader since that is your forte.

Doug

I prefer not to “lean” to pronounce anything. I would rather stand up straight. It makes it easier to walk and drive.

Editor on my phone (?), no one lives on my phone that edits squat. If my phone changes nucleus to “nuculus” it must be that strange editor of yours doing.

If you pick on my phone’s grammar, than I will give it right back. As long as you want to do it, then I am free to return the favor. If you think that is ridicule, you need to do better, I am not feeling ridiculed by you.

At least pfui is in the dictionary, your pfooey is nonexistant, which means you misspelled it. Poor boy, you should study Spelling Bees.

Denice

Please do go back to my post that said there were only 31 women in the House of Representatives, when women make up 51% of the human population in the USA.

Apparently your memory is faulty, big time. If you are going to accuse me of something, then get it right.

Well, I certainly misheard that one on NPR yesterday…….

With Julia Letlow winning her husband’s seat in the House of Representatives, Luke Letlow died of COVID-19 before being sworn in, there are now 31 GOP women in the House. I missed the GOP part of the broadcast.

There are 117 women in the US House of Representatives. And 76 of them are Democrats, so seems the Democrats are twice as likely to vote for a woman representative. But really this is nuts, that we make up 51% of the population and hold a pittance of the political seats in this country.

The US Senate only has 24 women and with Kamala Harris as V-P there are no Black women Senators.

It is interesting to note that a relatively large number of women have wound up in Washington office, when their husbands die while serving in office. The wife usually wins the seat. I guess the rules of inheritance apply in people’s minds when it comes to politics. They inherit both the house they live in, plus the House seat of the husband.

In the Senate this happened for the first time in 1922, but worse is that in 99 years only 58 women have ever served as Senators….

https://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/People/Women/Women-of-the-Senate.htm

That is pitiful, as right now almost half of that 58 women are on this years 2021 US Senate roster, 24 of them.

Oh, and by the way regarding the brew ha ha (yes, it is pronounced but not spelled that way), the brouhaha about VP Kamala Harris not saluting back the service members…..

The VP is not a member of the military service, and as a civilian is not to salute back. They salute her in respect for the fact that she is one of our Heads-of-State and if the President dies in office, then the Vice-President would become President of the USA and Commander in Chief and makes final Military decisions. But both she and the President is still only civilians and not in the military lineup either. There is no Presidential Military Uniform, and only military members IN UNIFORM are required to salute each other.

The President is not to salute back because he/she is only a mere civilian, so a return salute from the President is not even written in the military refs or anywhere else..

I just had to get that off my chest, with all this BS about Harris not saluting back on the news, trying to make our Vice President look like she is an “Un-American” ass. Such a slimy maneuver by Fox and friends.

This is military protocol, people. One would wish people would learn it before pushing something that does not exist. It was Ronnie Raygun who started the nonsense of Presidents saluting back one day when he was President, and even then he knew it was wrong procedure to do so, as he had been in the military during WW2. But I guess he missed all that military regulation and following orders stuff.

I just had to get that off my chest

The next time you want rant at length about something totally off-topic, do it somewhere else.

Narad

Hey why don’t you apply that equally, otherwise I just ignore comments like that. Example: Denice and TITAN.

Otherwise it is just discrimination.

@Denice Walter: “Has certainly has got the picture!”

The sole virtue of having a toxic personality myself; a.k.a. “It takes one to know one.”

@ has:

Yes, but the picture isn’t by TITAN ( or Titian for that matter).

Like I said, they usually out themselves but truly excellent work with the insults. I stand in awe.

@Denice Walter: “Like I said, they usually out themselves but truly excellent work with the insults. I stand in awe.”

Thanks. It’s like the old joke:

Q. How do I get to Carnegie Hall?

A. Surfing an epic wave of antivax tears.

Because when I go to Hell, it will be to audition. And you know which Circle I mean to work on.

@aelxa: “And let us hear your knock-knock jokes next, that would be a step up.”

has: Knock-knock!

aelxa: Who’s there?

has: Science!

aelxa: Science Who?

has: The Aristocrats!

Which, you know, makes as much sense as your Science. And is just as funny too, what with your Science torturing and killing kids, and all.

integrate into the host’s cell nuculus in a dividing cell

Nuculus? Noo que lus?! Is that some nooly discovered organelle? One where integrase is just lying around? One that allows DNA in the cytoplasm to just wander in?

Doug

You do not want to be awake for a colonoscopy……..

https://www.medicinenet.com/sigmoidoscopy_vs_colonoscopy/article.htm

You were obviously thinking of a sigmoidoscopy which is much less invasive and while uncomfortable does not compare to a colonoscopy.

I had a sigmoidoscopy done in the local doctor’s office. A bit uncomfortable but no sweat.

The colonoscopy I had was done in the hospital with light sleep sedation.

Learn the difference.

And when you are allergic to PEG it does not really matter how little PEG is used.

I told my retina specialist I use allergic to Betadine,which contains very large amounts of PEG, and he still used it to sterilize the surfaceof my eye before hr give me an Eylea injection into my eye. The surface of my eye burned like hell, and my vision immediately disappeared and I was blind and totally in the dark for 10 minutes from the few molecules that got pushed in with the needle. My vision very slowly returned after a lightning storm of visual effects which was all my eye perceived for another ten minutes. After one month my vision was still shot to hell, though the scans showed vessel bleeding in the macula had stopped.

Great, the bleeding stopped by my vision was in the crapper.

The next month’s injection was done with PEG-free chlorhexadine at my insistance, and with so much resistance from the specialist that he handed off to a colleague the in office who uses chlorhexadine.

And when they injected the Eylea, after sterilizing my eye surface with chlorhexadine, all that happened was…. that I saw the thicker Eylea fluid waving around until it totally dispersed. My vision never changed one iota. There was absolutely no pain, zero, nada.

So to think the because the amount of the substance is so small it is of no consequence or concern, that is stupid thinking of the very worst kind.

I was awake for both of my colonoscopies, sweetie, and was able to watch them on the monitor. I remember the turn around to the transverse colon on the second one quite well. Minimal sedation.

I know people who have had colonoscopies without heavy sedation.
https://www.mayoclinichealthsystem.org/hometown-health/patient-stories/skipping-sedation-a-quicker-colonoscopy

Betadine does not contain PEG, either in the general purpose solution or the ophthalmic prep solution. It is a complex of iodine any polyvinylpyrrolidone, which is often called “povidone” or “PVP.” PVP is used in some hair gels.

And once again you just bypass the point. I raised absolutely nothing about the quantity of PEG with regard to allergic response. I simply said that if someone were acutely allergic to PEG the PEG-based solution used for prep would cause effects long before the colonoscopy began.

Do you ever get ANYTHING right?

Narad

You did notice my notation of “light sleep sedation”, not everyone is affect by sedation the same as others. For me, I go from no sedation effect to falling asleep.

And congratulations on tolerating the air blowing up your colon and having 5 feet of hard tubing pushed up there.

I found watching my cardiac catherization less uncomfortable and much more interesting instead.

Doug

Here is a link to the MSDS (manufacturers safety and data sheet) for betadine……..

https://www.briggatemedical.com/pdfs/msds_betadineantisepticspray.pdf

Notice the ingredient “polyethylene glycol” which is PEG. PEG has many other designations like “macrogol”.

Here is a link on Betadine use in eyes with anti-VEGF…….

https://lowvision.preventblindness.org/2013/06/25/betadine-and-eye-pain/

Perhaps you need to check a MSDS before saying Betadine does not contain something.

PEG is used in almost all eye drops as a”liguid” carrier. Polysorbate 80 is a closely related molecule and also causes problems allergic to PEG.

I am not going to ask if you ever get things right, you might from time to time.

Glad your hair gel is treated with PVP, as if hair were not a dead extrusion which is not ever in danger of infection.

Here is a link to the MSDS (manufacturers safety and data sheet) for betadine……..

You misspelled “a random Australian product.”

Aelxa

That SDS is not for Betadine, it is for a different brand of PVP-Iodine. Betadine does not contain PEG in either the general purpose solution or the ophthalmic prep solution. SOME ophthalmologists in the US used to use Betadine Solution and dilute it to half strength at time of use. That largely came to an end when the FDA cracked down on “compounding” outside of specialist facilities several years ago. That means they use the ready-made ophthalmic prep solution. Maybe some brands contain PEG, though for what purpose it is hard to imagine since it is used as a viscosity modifier which is of no advantage for eye prep.

As usual for you, the discussion of antiseptics for eye prep in the link doesn’t address the idea of PEG in Betadine at all.
You had what you perceived as an allergic response to an ophthalmic antiseptic. Fine. So what? Just another opportunity for you to tell everyone about you, as far as I can see.

Don’t you understand that it is your self-absorption and hubris, along with your attempts at diversion, that attract people to mock and ridicule you? If you spent less effort on irrelevancies and diversion people would likely be less inclined to yank your chain for botching words.

Doug

And you your further education, my doctors always prescribed either OPS (oral sodium phosphate) or Magnesium Citrate for my preps in the last 45 years, never once a PEG.

Not everyone is stupid enough to consider giving a patient a liquid plastic as a prep.

Like most things you encounter you seem to have got everything wrong.

The Mayo Clinic article is talking about reactogenicity. Neither “allergy” nor “IGG” appear in the post. The reactions described are not characteristic of allergy and certainly not anaphylactoid.

The CDC article is warning that if you had an allergic response to the FIRST dose you should not get the second dose. The implication is that you had been sensitized to something in the vaccine PRIOR to getting the first dose. I was suggesting that if PEG is highly allergenic then the first dose would be the sensitizing dose for some distinctly noticeable number of people.

Not everyone who gets a colonoscopy is even heavily sedated, much less anesthetized. And once again you miss the point. Feeling awful the next day has nothing to do with allergy to the PEG. If you were allergic to PEG you’d react strongly long before the colonoscopy began. If it was an anaphylactic response your colonoscopy would be delayed, possibly permanently (pathologist might use a knife for investigation), but likely just because you were being held for observation after heroic measures to keep you from snuffing it.

~~~
regulars – I she always this dumb? I’ve pretty much completely ignored her since just after she first showed up.

aaargh! IgE not IGG

The probability that I will fix something by editing is substantially less than the probability I will make it worse.

I’ll re-iterate, readers:

there are two paths for sceptics dealing with trolls or alt med prevaricators-
— showing how their woo departs from consensus science and
— showing how they get basic, simple, primary school material utterly wrong
.

You’ll notice that they frequently show themselves and we don’t have to do all that much. A case in point:
Aelxa challenges me about congresswomen then discovers she “mis-heard” and that I am quibbling with pronunciation
but PRN’s radio woo-meister claims a PhD and expertise in several areas and gets them all wrong- pronunciation, word usage and BASIC facts MANY TIMES..
(People in his age group with advanced degrees usually have had to be proficient in foreign languages- he gets French, Spanish, German and Italian names/ places wrong- and
to possess wide-ranging general knowledge including the capacity to LOOK THINGS UP. He hasn’t the excuse of being EFL/ ESL or being an immigrant.)

Sceptics may have a harder time discerning false scientific information ( e.g. not everyone knows *why their DNA is safe from mRNA vaccines or why vaccines can’t cause autism, in detail) BUT
general information is accessible to everyone especially when you have a computer*. **

Suppose you want to hire a lawyer, financial advisor or a physiotherapist- they appear to have credentials BUT they tell you something that defies basic knowledge or flies in the face of reality: would you hire them? ” I usually consult the spirits before I go to court”, ” Take all your money out of banks and the market and buy GOLD” or
” If you drink green juices, your injury will heal very quickly”

When someone gets simple things so very wrong, their other information or advice is immediately suspect.
When someone repeatedly gets simple- as well as complex- things wrong, dismiss them.

** there’s a reason alties hate Wikipedia, Rational Wiki, QW, SBM and Orac! ….

.

@ doug:

Exactly! ( ” One where integrase is just lying around?” Heh. )

Sceptics have two possible pathwayss ( both are necessary) when dealing with trolls/ alt med BS:
to demonstrate how wrong their woo is ( new vaccines affecting DNA) AND
to show how untrustworthy their basic knowledge/ internet “research” is.( Titian, congress)

If someone gets *basic information wrong ( like my quotes above) how can you trust their “scientific” input?*

Readers probably need some bio/ medical background to do the first ( although they can learn from Orac and his minions) but most adults can do the second automatically.. I marvel that seemingly normal adults can take medical advice from a radio guru ( PRN) who gets such simple, grade school material as that which I quote so wrong.

Yet we have a few commenters whose area of expertise is not life science who do a bang up job demolishing trolls- because well-educated adults can do deeper investigation: this is one of woo-meisters’ complaints about Wikipedia – editors/ admins do not need to be experts IF they can find reality-based sources:
Woo-meisters complaining about credentials and appropriate degrees? Risible.

Denice

You put in a class with a person who did not know common UK-English words, and so gave them an American -English pronunciation.

So I gave you the correct UK-English words. I have been to England and so know what things like Bangers-n-Mash is. And never order Black Pudding. And if you expect potato chips when you order chips you will get French fries. You need a ask for “crisps” instead to get chips.

You should hear the various pronunciations of “Beaufort” by state. In South Carolina it is ” Bew fort”, call it “Bew furt” and they will laugh their asses off in South Carolina. And in North Carolina it is “bow furt”, so if you call it “Bew fort” in North Carolina they will tell you that you are not in South Carolina and it is pronounced “Bew furt”. We are much too polite to laugh at people here in NC because they are ignorant of the proper pronunciation.

So making fun of a person’s pronunciation will gain you no points with me. That they give you points here for doing so is the usual “nit-picking” that youall love to engage in, honey child.

I have been to England and so know what things like Bangers-n-Mash is. And never order Black Pudding. And if you expect potato chips when you order chips you will get French fries. You need a ask for “crisps” instead to get chips.

Do you have to use a solvent to get the oozing hubris off yourself at the end of the day? Who gives a shit if you’ve been to England? It’s about as dumb a thing to be haughty about as I can imagine. Have you flown first class to Buenos Aires? Did you visit the Continent? Head down to Gibraltar for the ferry to Morocco?

Yes, your amazing “life experience, baby.” When you proudly make your decennial return to school, I suggest remedial English.

Have you flown first class to Buenos Aires? Did you visit the Continent? Head down to Gibraltar for the ferry to Morocco?

I don’t know what you do in your spare time but for some reason I feel like I need to alert several governments about it.

stroking my Walther PPK/S .380

Narad

Well, let’s see.

I have traveled First Class on the SS France and the Queen Elizabeth. Flown First Class on Swiss Air a number of times.

Went to boarding school in Switzerland at Le Mesnil, and boarding school in Germany.

Bought clothes in Paris, have a few LV items in my closet.

Speak three languages fluently.

Went to university the first time at age 16, got first degree when still 17 but then I took 18 credits pre-semester after taking 21 credits my first semester. 21 credits was a bit too much work to do each semester, so I cut back.

The point Narad, is you do not need to stop thinking and learning…..and most importantly questioning things once you get out of school. Things are developing so fast that you have to keep learning or be left wondering how things got to this point in time.

Questioning everything is the most important thing to do, and in this case it means learning new material that did not even exist between 1954 and 1985.

And them calling “gene therapy” by the name “vaccine” is so facetious, it is such a base twist on the English language, whether in the UK or the USA.

A vaccine is made of a substance that is injected in the body, a substance which is immediately a challenge to the immune system.

These treatments are a strictly gene therapy, made to get mRNAthrough cell walls and into cells to produce a molecule that duplicates a small spike secretion of the SARS- CoV-2.

You can keep claiming it is a “vaccine” but it is definitely not. It is strictly a gene therapy that forces the cells to make a foreign string of gene sequences.

That is gene therapy.

Perhaps you are the one desperately in need of remedial English classes. I recommend your local Adult Education classes at either your high school or community college. They are generally free of charge to older adults.

Tim

Brazil and Morocco makes me think drugs.

And be careful with that PPK, you could poke your eye out if you are not careful.

These treatments are a strictly gene therapy, made to get mRNAthrough cell walls and into cells to produce a molecule that duplicates a small spike secretion of the SARS- CoV-2.

Wrong post.

Perhaps you are the one desperately in need of remedial English classes. I recommend your local Adult Education classes at either your high school or community college. They are generally free of charge to older adults.

If you had been paying attention, or exerted even a tiny bit of effort, you’d know what my stock in trade is.

The anti-vaccine activist reads a post explaining in detail while these vaccines are not gene therapy.

The anti-vaccine activist responds by claiming these are gene therapy, completely ignoring the points made shortly in this post, and more in detail in a previous post, https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/02/16/latest-antivaccine-lie-about-covid-19-vaccines-theyre-gene-therapy/ including the fact that the vaccines do not change the recipient’s genetic code.

The anti-vaccine activist thinks her complete ignoring of the post and its points means she scored points.

Another day, same behavior.

I don’t know what you do in your spare time but for some reason I feel like I need to alert several governments about it.

Let’s just say that some of the nightclub madrileños were alarmed at their first sight of the Funky Chicken. I never did figure out what my girlfriend’s cousin’s “Spanish mescaline” was supposed to be, but it didn’t do anything.

Pamplona was one thing (I was on the third leg) in terms of people dressed in Hemingway costumes and drinking like Prohibition was just around the corner, but man, that cousin was practically trying to force what effectively was spiked Tang down my throat.

There are a lot of crazy stories from that trip, but this isn’t the place.

HA! They got some kind of vine down there that is MAOI to kick the other stuff into gear.

@Aelxa: “Brazil and Morocco makes me think drugs.”

Really? Damn, I was going to go with my first hunch of organ harvesting linchpin. I could have been somebody…

Tim

MAO Inhibitor? All you need is Berberine, sold in any healthfood store inhibits MAO-A. Made from a variety of plants but usually Indian Barberry or Oregon Grape.

For MAO-B inhibiting use Wild Green Oats extract, again any healthfood store has it.

No need to go out of the USA to get an MAOI. Not even a prescription needed.

Mostly. Once in a while she makes a comment that seems sensible.

But she does a lot of top-of-the head reasoning based on sources like the Schmidt-Krueger thing. I tend to prefer the real data in preference to that sort of argument-from-ignorance speculation.

FWIW, I got my second Pfizer shot on Wednesday. Thursday afternoon I felt a bit fatigued and had an episode of mild chills. I took some ibuprofen and tucked into bed for a while. I seem to be back to normal now.

I did a little digging into lipids and the biggest concern seemed to be oxidative stress on the liver if you use the wrong type. The safety research was for using them as a drug delivery platform which would involve repeated deliveries of much larger quantities than are in the mRNA vaccines. So it’s just another red herring.

And who injects gold nanoparticles into their body anyway?

squirrelelite

“Who uses gold nanoparticles anyway?”……

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4101904/

Especially in Cancer therapy…..

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27867425/

Dr Schmidt-Kruger wondered why autopsies were not done on those who died, to check for liver and other organ damage, to make certain it was not the vaccines that caused the deaths. Doing so would eliminate the concerns regarding the different lipids used in the various vaccines.

The problem is with cationic lipids being used. A positively charged lipid that causes cell destruction, cells that clot.

Instead we are being told the deaths were not beyond the expected amount of deaths for whatever symptom they had before dying after getting one of the vaccines.

Which reminds me of all the people who said that only 6% of the people died did so from COVID-19, since everyone else died of thei the r “pre-existing conditions”. Or at least according to the “Flu” believers, the dead died of their pre-existing conditions even when those conditions were not terminal.

Did anyone think that those that have already died from COVID-19 were those already PRONE to blood clots? And that those getting blood clots after the vaccine, might be reacting to the vaccine?

But it is unscientific to question that in any way, apparently.

There was link to cationic lipids, remember that ? One of them,DOSAT, seems to cause problems with ridiculously high doses. MRNA vaccines does not contain DOSAT, and concentrations are much lower. So try to find a find a proper link.

Squirrelelite

That is a sad story since she was such a healthy and active person. I wonder if we will hear anything about her autopsy.

Something really drastic happened to destroy her Liver and Kidneys. Her poor child is now left with only the grandparents.

The microscopic examination of those organs may help to clarify the reason, hopefully.

The clotting in COVID-19 is so variable from person to person when it comes to what organs will be affected. COVID-19 affected my kidneys to the point the Nephrologist said all he could do was prescribe dialysis if it got worse, thankfully it got better instead. But I now am careful in what I have to eat and the medications I take.

Wearing masks and physical distancing will still have to be used even with people taking the “vaccines”.

squirrilelite

Here is an article that talks about the people who are more prone to blood clots because they have higher baseline levels of pro-inflammatory molecules linked to getting severe COVID-19………

https://news.weill.cornell.edu/news/2020/07/what-is-known-about-covid-19-and-abnormal-blood-clotting

That would be males, people who are obese and diabetics.

Then we should think about those people who tend to get DVT (deep vein thrombosis) when not very active or traveling on long trips and unable to get up and move around. Some people tend to clots but are unaware of it, until they take a long trip.

So now after a year of lots of inactivity, this does not bode well for people who might catch COVID-19. The reports are most people gained a minimum of 2 pounds a month, or 24 pounds in the last year. That and lots of comfort food increases those pro-inflammatory molecules in the body.

Which is why I tend to take supplements that thin the blood like Vitamin E and D3.

Thanks for the gold nanoparticle links. The first was interesting reading, although it appears to be about use for in vitro investigation of cell mechanisms and strip diagnostic testing. It makes sense that they could serve as a target for radiotherapy since gold is a large atomic number element with lots of electrons. But that would require much larger doses than are included in a vaccine and they aren’t in vaccines anyway.

There is triage guidance for performing autopsies for people who die after receiving a Covid-19 vaccine, although I’m sure medical examiners and the family of the deceased have some input and leeway. I look forward to seeing the results of the autopsy on Kassidi Kurill. Unlike the other three who died in their 80’s, her death is certainly puzzling.

https://kutv.com/news/local/utah-woman-39-dies-4-days-after-2nd-does-of-covid-19-vaccine-autopsy-ordered

I haven’t read or heard of any evidence that Covid-19 related clotting is highly related to patients who were already at risk for clotting problems. And the clotting observed in Covid-19 autopsies is very unusual.
https://www.advisory.com/en/daily-briefing/2020/07/14/covid-autopsies

For instance, in one of the first published autopsies of a Covid-19 patient, which was published on April 10, Richard Vander Heide said he found hundreds or thousands of microclots in the lungs of a 44-year-old man who had been treated at LSU Health.

“I will never forget the day,” Vander Heide, who’s been performing autopsies for more than 20 years, said. “I had never seen something like this.”

But as Vander Heide examined other patients, he noticed the same pattern of clotting in the lungs. Vander Heide said he was so alarmed by his findings that he shared his research online before it was submitted to a journal, so that doctors could immediately review it. Those findings—eventually published in the Lancet—influenced a number of doctors to give blood thinners to Covid-19 patients, which is now a common practice, the Post reports.

Other autopsies of Covid-19 patients—including autopsies on patients in Italy and others conducted by Mount Sinai researchers—have found similar patterns of microclots in the lungs.

But for now, the frequency of reported deaths after Covid-19 vaccination is low compared to the normal average for people of that age group and there has been no consistent pattern identified that would suggest a connection.

Perhaps we will find some rare mechanism like the AstraZeneca researchers found for clotting disorders, but the results so far show these vaccines to be extremely safe and much better than letting the virus spread unchecked.

Finally, try to avoid broad brush statements like

it is unscientific to question that in any way

Science is all about asking questions and trying to find the answers. Another big part of science is making mistakes and then trying to figure out what went wrong. Which is why no one will be getting the Merck Covid-19 vaccine.

Doug

Well, a chuffer like you does not get far beyond being a real knob. And your vocabulary makes you a minger and are fairly gormless.

Your score is 1/2 point out of 10.

Dorit

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17007566/

Title is “Synthetic messenger RNA as a tool for gene therapy”

On PubMed there are many such papers and they call the use of injected mRNA “gene therapy”.

You can change the name to make it palatable to people, but it is still gene therapy to get a cell to make a substance that is foreign to it’s original programming.

This is a 2006 paper about using mRNA technology as gene therapy that has nothing to do with Covid-19 vaccines. If your argument is “you can only use a technology in one way and to do one thing,” that is incorrect.

Try reading Orac’s post that I linked above. It explains in detail why these vaccines are not gene therapy.

Bringing an off-topic article is not a good counter. Continuing to comment on the post without reading the arguments that show you mistaken – badly, painfully, deeply mistaken – is problematic.

Dorit

I am not mistaken.

This paper is clear, calling it gene therapy when you are transecting a cell with mRNA in order to change the cell programming in order to make a specific protein.

Let me say that again. Gene therapy.

In the case of the COVID-19 mRNA injections, to make a spike protein.

It is gene therapy.

It is only after 2016 do you see the various gene therapy for Cancer now being called “vaccines”. Which is a joke since they are not preventing Cancer, they are treating people who have Cancer.

Changing the name is an advertising ploy.

Which would people be more likely take, a vaccine (which sounds like a shot to prevent a disease) or a therapy (which people view as treating a disease you already have).

So you can say all the words you want, neither you or Orac can change the fact that gene therapy is what these mRNA injections are. They developed the mRNA gene therapy to have temporary production of a protein, instead attempting anymore to permanent changes to the cell DNA to make a specific protein.

The advantage of the mRNA gene therapy was it was so much easier to do and it wasant permanent. This means repeat gene therapy would always be needed by the patient. Much more profitable.

You can call a car an “airplane”, but the car is still a car.

So call a gene therapy a “vaccine” all you wish, but the gene therapy is still a gene therapy.

And let me return to you the same languaget as you employed.

You are pitifully, sadly, delusionally mistaken in calling a gene therapy by the name “vaccine”.

Your paper is from 2006 and is not about the COVID-19 mRNA vaccines at all.

The fact that it considered whether mRNA technology could be used in gene therapy doesn’t mean it can’t be used for vaccines. You can use the same technology in different ways. Pointing to an article that isn’t about these vaccines at all is, again, an error.

Try reading Orac’s posts on this before commenting again. Not only are you deeply wrong, but it’s offensive to come and litter so much on his posts without reading his response to your error.

Hey, cracklebrain, it’s not gene therapy unless it’s rewriting the DNA held in the cell’s nucleus. Which mRNA does not. You need a retrovirus to do that.

All an mRNA vaccine does is borrow the cell’s cytoplasm manufactory for a short time in order to produce copies of the SARS-CoV-2 virus shell’s distinctive spike protein. This trains the immune system to recognize that protein so that, as soon as it encounters it for real, it murders the crap out of it and the rest of the virus it rode in on.

After a short time that vaccine mRNA will be broken down and recycled by the cell, same as happens to mRNA copied from the cell’s nuclease, whereupon the cell will stop producing that protein. Contrast gene therapy, where the goal is to alter protein production permanently by replacing a faulty section of DNA containing defective instructions for a protein with good DNA that encodes the correct protein (e.g. CTFR).

But sure, you keep calling Ms Reiss “delusionally mistaken”. I didn’t even pass first-year biochem and even I know this much. So what’s your excuse?

Because having watched your regular (quasi)scientific showboatings while telling us how incredibly degree-educated you are, I find it nigh impossible that yours is an honest error of ignorance or naive regurgitation of second-hand propaganda. Thus I must conclude you are a malicious mendacious lying sack of shit—not merely a victim of antivax abuse but an enthusiastic and fully self-aware perpetrator of it too.

And you feign wonder why nobody likes or trusts you. It’s because you’ve worked incredibly tirelessly hard to earn it—and we know that you know this too.

Me: “Hey, cracklebrain, it’s not gene therapy unless it’s rewriting the DNA held in the cell’s nucleus.”

I’m not entirely correct here, as there are also experiments in using adenoviruses to insert additional DNA into the cell nucleus but not into its chromosome as a retrovirus would; i.e. plain addition rather than modification. Though with the same goal: to correct for defects in the cell’s own genome by adding new DNA which will be copied to mRNA for production of [correct] proteins.

(I’m also guessing this loose DNA wouldn’t be replicated during normal cell division, making it a time-limited therapy either used to treat acute conditions or requiring regular re-dosing.)

However, since the COVID vaccines are inserting single-strand messenger-RNA, which doesn’t replicate and is quickly broken down by the cell after being transcripted to proteins, Aelxa is still lying out of her lying troll ass.

@Aelxa Gene therapy means fixing a lethal gene. Vaccination is giving immunogenetic material. (Spot the difference), COVID vaccines do not attempt to change any gene, so they are not gene therapy. Instead, external RNA itself is immunogenic:
Schlake T, Thess A, Fotin-Mleczek M, Kallen KJ. Developing mRNA-vaccine technologies. RNA Biol. 2012 Nov;9(11):1319-30. doi: 10.4161/rna.22269. Epub 2012 Oct 12. PMID: 23064118; PMCID: PMC3597572.
Vaccine activates Toll like receptors (and thus innate immune system), which is why an adjuvant is not needed

Aarno

No, Aarno gene therapy does not mean “fixing a lethal gene”.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18948192/

A another paper from 2009….

“Current prospects for mRNA gene delivery”

mRNA will never change a cell’s DNA, it merely functions in the cytoplasm giving the cell a new program to make a specific protein.

Weither that protein is a spike or another a protein that interferes with the functioning of another cell or corrects the functioning of another cell in the body does not really matter.

However, in order to make this gene therapy more palatable you will now find they no longer call it “gene therapy” when using mRNA to treat Cancer. It is now a Cancer vaccine”….

https://www.mdanderson.org/cancerwise/can-mrna-vaccines-like-those-used-for-covid-19-be-used-in-cancer-care.h00-159457689.html

“Can mRNA Vaccines be used to treat Cancer?”

At MD Anderson gene therapy is now a “vaccine” but in the very beginning they write……

“Messenger RNA, know as mRNA, are genetic instructions for our cells”. They actually used the word “genetic” when referring to a “vaccine”, isn’t that interesting.

But China still calls it what it is, gene therapy……

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.molpharmaceut.0c00451

They have tweeked the name a bit in this article calling it “immunogene therapy”, thus acknowledging that it involves both genes and the immune system.

Very same process but in the US it is now “Cancer Vaccine” to treat Cancer, while elsewhere it is still called Gene Therapy as it has always been referred to since it was first used.

I’ve made gene therapy.

mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy.

Vaccines provoke an immune response.

Gene therapies try to evade an immune response so they can enter the nucleus.

Both can be carried by an adenovirus.

You’re really stuck on this. Do you have a gene that you want to change?

JustATech

I do not need a gene changed but I do use recombinant therapy, recombinant Human Growth Hormone since my pituitary is not making HGH.

I prefer taking a daily shot of HGH, to anyone playing with my genes or their programming.

All of you

You all seemed to have missed the Title of the paper I linked to…….

“Synthetic Messenger RNA as a tool for Gene Therapy”

Hello, can anyone read…….

“Transsection of human cells with DNA in biomedical applications carries the risk of mutagenisis. Transsection with mRNA avoids this problem”

Shoot, just read the first paragraph of the abstract.

The paper is about using mRNA for gene therapy, and gene therapy does not mean the nucleus DNA has to be involved, has.

By using mRNA “cells could be efficiently and simultaneously loaded with several different transcripts.”

The same result as changing the DNA is achieved by using mRNA….getting a cell to make a specific protein needed to treat the patient.

The so-called mRNA “vaccine”…..getting a cell to make a specific protein (the spike) to treat the patient and get the immune system to make antibodies to said “spike protein”

The mRNA “vaccine” is the same thing, gene therapy.

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