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COVID-19 vaccination, lymph nodes, and mammography guidelines

Reports of enlarged lymph nodes under the arm after COVID-19 vaccination have led doctors to tweak mammography guidelines. Antivaxxers, unsurprisingly, have tried to weaponize this observation to spread fear and confusion about these vaccines.

I’ve said many times before that there’s nothing new under the sun when it comes to the antivaccine movement. Basically, every antivax trope, lie, distortion, talking point, and bit of disinformation has been resurrected, dusted off, and repurposed to spread fear, uncertainty, and doubt (FUD) about the COVID-19 vaccines. As they’ve done since I first started, antivaxxers have blamed COVID-19 vaccines for death, infertility, and Alzheimer’s disease, while characterizing them as a sort of toxin-ladengene therapy” that can “reprogram your DNA.” True, there is one antivax lie that hasn’t (yet) been resurrected for COVID-19, namely the claim that the vaccines cause autism, but that’s only because no COVID-19 vaccine has been approved or mandated for children. (You can bet that the vaccine-autism myth will reappear as soon as we start vaccinating children against COVID-19.) Even so, I now realize that I’m not entirely correct in saying that there is “nothing new under the sun” from antivaxxers about COVID-19 vaccines. A few days ago, I came across one that I’d never heard before. Have you heard the one about the COVID-19 vaccine, lymph nodes, and mammography?

Let’s start with the sane, sober, reality-based discussion of what I’m talking about, in this case from a CNN news report:

When she found a lump in her left breast during a routine self-check, Boston primary care physician Dr. Devon Quasha knew exactly what to do. She immediately scheduled a diagnostic mammogram and ultrasound at Massachusetts General Hospital for early January.

Then the Moderna vaccine became available to health care professionals in the city. She received her first Covid-19 shot about a week before her scheduled mammogram.Quasha didn’t notice much of a reaction to the vaccine at first, but a couple of days before her appointment her left arm began to hurt.

Tender, swollen lumps developed under her left armpit, along with a large swelling above her collarbone — all areas where there are lymph nodes, the body’s filters for germs. “You have lymph nodes above and below your collarbone,” Quasha said. “You don’t want to feel those. It was scary when I felt it.”Lymph nodes contain immune cells that help fight invaders. That’s why it made sense to Quashathat the nodes were reacting to the vaccine, building antibodies as they were designed to do. But she couldn’t be sure.

You can see how this might be alarming to women, particularly to a woman who had recently noticed a lump in her breast. To physicians and scientists, it’s no surprise at all that an injection that can cause local inflammation could also cause inflammation of the local lymph nodes, namely the axillary lymph nodes (the lymph nodes under your arm) or the supraclavicular lymph nodes (lymph nodes in your lower neck right above your collarbone). These two lymph node basins are the basins to which breast cancer often spreads first, particularly the axillary lymph nodes, which is why they are used in staging breast cancer, with positive lymph nodes imparting a higher cancer stage. Here’s an illustration:

Breast Cancer Lymph Nodes

Radiologists and breast cancer doctors have already encountered this phenomenon:

After the ultrasound, Quasha’s radiologist was concerned. She told Quasha she considered the lump she had felt in her breast to be of little significance, but the lymph nodes that showed up as white blobs on her mammogram were another matter.

In non-pandemic times, that finding would set off alarm bells, requiring the need for further investigation, even an immediate biopsy. Yet Quasha had just had the vaccine. After talking it over with her, Quasha said her doctor decided not to do a biopsy at that time. Instead she told Quasha to come back for a follow-up ultrasound in six weeks.

And this was the correct thing to do from a clinical standpoint. Other things that can cause lymphadenopathy (swollen lymph nodes) are injuries or infections in the arm, which can lead to an inflammatory reaction in the lymph nodes under that arm. That’s just the lymph nodes doing their job. For example, if bacteria get into the lymph vessels, the lymph nodes are a point at which the immune system can stop the bacteria from spreading further. In addition, any sort of significant (or sometimes even not-so-significant) inflammatory reaction can lead to lymphadenopathy in the lymph node basin draining the area where the inflammation is occurring.

It turns out, though, that axillary and supraclavicular lymphadenopathy on the side of the shoulder in which a woman received a COVID-19 vaccine is turning out to be more common than anticipated:

Similar scenarios had been happening in mammogram centers around the country. As radiologists compared notes with colleagues, word began to spread.

“We all started talking about it, and it was like a wildfire,” said Dr. Connie Lehman, chief of breast imaging in Massachusetts General’s department of radiology.

“I cannot tell you how many women are showing nodes on mammograms and people thought it was going to be not that common,” said Lehman, who is also a professor of radiology at Harvard Medical School.

Tales of unnecessary biopsies spurred the patient care committee of the Society of Breast Imaging (SBI) to put out an advisory in January: Ask your patients about their Covid-19 status, and record the date and which arm received the vaccine. Consider that before automatically scheduling a biopsy.

“We wanted to advocate that women don’t always need to have a biopsy,” said Dr. Lars Grimm, associate professor of radiology at Duke University School of Medicine and one of the authors of the SBI advisory. “Because oftentimes the default if you see swollen lymph nodes in a patient would actually be to recommend doing a biopsy.”

In the context of breast imaging, abnormally enlarged lymph nodes observed on mammography or axillary ultrasound are frequently of concern. Most commonly, they do not represent breast cancer, but they can. Depending on how suspicious the enlarged lymph nodes are, a core needle biopsy, guided by ultrasound, might be ordered. One can see how this sort of side effect of COVID-19 vaccines could wreak havoc with mammographic screening.

So the SBI advisory to do mammograms either before receiving the COVID-19 vaccine or 4-6 weeks after the second dose of the vaccine is both a reasonable and practical response to this observation. So is the suggestion that axillary lymphadenopathy observed on mammography and/or ultrasound not necessarily be immediately biopsied but instead followed up with repeat imaging in 4-12 weeks to make sure that the lymphadenopathy has resolved. Doctors involved in screening mammography and the evaluation of women for breast cancer (such as yours truly) make these sorts of clinical judgments all the time. COVID-19 vaccinations complicate these sorts of judgments, but, when you come right down to it, not by very much.

Indeed, some radiologists and breast cancer doctors have gone a step further, saying:

At Mass General, Lehman and her team have gone a step further. They are screening all women regardless of vaccine status, but telling those with no history of cancer that any swelling in the lymph nodes that might be connected to a Covid-19 vaccine is benign — meaning not cancerous.

“This follows the American College of Radiology recommendations that if you have a known inflammatory cause you can say it’s benign,” said Lehman, who recently published a paper on the hospital’s procedures.

If their concern is a swelling or tenderness after the vaccine in their armpit, we suggest that they wait four to six weeks, talk to their doctor, and if it persists, then we have them come in to do an evaluation of it,” she said.

But how common is supraclavicular or axillary lymphadenopathy after COVID-19 vaccination? Going back to the SBI advisory:

For patients receiving the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine, axillary swelling or tenderness (i.e., lymphadenopathy) was a solicited adverse event reported in 11.6% of patients (vs 5.0% for placebo) following dose 1 and 16.0% of patients (vs 4.3% for placebo) following dose 2.(9) Furthermore, lymphadenopathy was also reported as an unsolicited adverse event in 1.1% of persons in the vaccine group (vs 0.6% in the placebo group). Lymphadenopathy occurred in the arm and neck 2-4 days following vaccination with a median duration of 1-2 days.

For patients receiving the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine, lymphadenopathy was only reported as an unsolicited adverse event with 58 more cases in the vaccine group than the placebo group (64 vs 6 respectively).(10) Lymphadenopathy occurred in the arm and neck within 2-4 days of vaccination and lasted for a mean of 10 days. As lymphadenopathy was only reported as an unsolicited adverse event, the true incidence rate is likely higher. Reported rates and duration of adenopathy in both trials were based on clinical assessment (i.e., physical examination), and therefore rates and duration of subclinical adenopathy appreciable on mammography are likely greater. Anecdotally, mammographically detectable axillary adenopathy following COVID-19 vaccinations has been unilateral.

So basically the Moderna vaccine produced a significant incidence of axillary lymphadenopathy on the same side as vaccination in its phase 3 clinical trial, while the same adverse reaction was reported much less frequently after the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in its phase 3 clinical trial. No doubt the recommendations will change as we learn more.

So what are antivaxxers doing with this? (I did, after all, point out at the beginning of the post that antivaxxers were going wild with this.) Well, let’s head on over to that factory of unhinged conspiracy theories, antivaccine quackery, and quackery in general, Natural News:

Mike Adams and lymph nodes on mammograms

Yes and no. As I explained above, yes, axillary lymphadenopathy can be a symptom of breast cancer. It can also be a symptom of lymphoma, lung cancer, and other cancers, or it can be a symptom of infection or inflammation. Of course, Mike Adams’ minion Lance D. Johnson can’t resist going on about “inflammation.” (I sometimes wonder if these other “authors” for Adams’ site are just pen names for the man orchestrating the nonsense, but on the other hand not even Mike Adams could churn out the sheer quantity of conspiracy mongering and quackery on his site all by himself.) Here’s what I mean:

The vaccines are not only causing an inflammatory response in the arm of recipients, as seen with most vaccines, but the shots are also causing systemic inflammation throughout women’s breast tissue. The doctors are concerned because the inflammation goes up with each vaccine dose. After the first dose of the Moderna vaccine, women, on average, have 11 percent swollen lymph nodes in their breast tissue. After the second dose, the inflammation increases to 16% of their lymph nodes in breast tissue. The Moderna vaccine is built on the experimental mRNA platform that metaphorically terraforms human cells so they can support foreign virus replication. The mRNA platform alters cellular processes, causing unpredictable inflammation as the immune cells respond to these newly developed virus properties.

Um, no. Axillary lymph nodes are not in breast tissue. In fact, there’s even a membrane/fascia separating the breast tissue from the axillary fat and lymph nodes. Indeed, when I’m operating, I know I’m in the axilla when I divide that membrane and the different-appearing axillary fat starts to pooch out. Yes, there are a few lymph nodes in the breast itself. We encounter them during surgery sometimes and sometimes they are noted on pathology reports after breast surgery, but that’s not what radiologists have been reporting. Also, the COVID-19 vaccine is “terraforming human cells”? That’s a new antivax metaphor. I’ve heard the bogus claims that these mRNA-based vaccines are “gene therapy, not vaccines” (they are vaccines), that they “reprogram your DNA” (they don’t), and even that they are “transhumanism,” but “terraforming human cells”? That’s one seriously overblown metaphor there, truly next-level antivax nonsense! Also, mRNA vaccines do not alter cells to “support foreign virus replication.” They do one thing. They provide the template for the cells into which the mRNA enters to make a single protein (the spike protein) from SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19. That’s it. The immune system does the rest.

Of course to Adams, it’s all a conspiracy, because, well, everything is:

In order to conceal the evidence of this widespread vaccine injury, the doctors are changing mammogram guidelines and refusing to screen the breast tissue of women who were recently vaccinated for covid-19. The doctors now advise all women patients to reschedule their yearly mammograms, either before the first dose or four weeks after the second dose. “We don’t want these patients to get a false positive to have this sort of alarm,” Parkinson said.

And:

The doctors pride themselves in “saving lives” through early detection of breast cancer, but when it comes to vaccine injury, the doctors turn a blind eye and delay the screening process. Obviously, women and the rest of society are being deceived about the origins of cancer and chronic disease. Women are being misled about the underlying causes of inflammation that create the conditions for breast cancer to develop. Vaccination initiates an inflammatory process. The experimental mRNA vaccines are designed to reprogram cellular functions, to create spike proteins that will create even more inflammation throughout the body. The fact that the doctors are willing to forgo breast cancer detection after a woman is vaccinated, shows just how far the medical establishment will go to cover up vaccine injury and the true origins of cancer.

No, it just goes to show that anything that confounds the results of a screening test is not a good thing. Moreover, delaying screening mammography a few weeks is unlikely to be harmful in the vast majority of women, while unnecessary biopsies of lymph nodes can be harmful. Of course, leave it to antivaxxers to come up with a way to link the observation that COVID-19 vaccination can cause enlarged lymph nodes under the arm to the common antivax trope that vaccines cause systemic inflammation that leads to autoimmune diseases, cancer, and neuroinflammatory diseases.

I was surprised to see someone push back against this nonsense in the comments, a commenter by the name Dr. Stan:

Dr Stan here, Ive been an Emergency Physician for 28 years. Spent 18 years in the US Navy as a Corpsman and Medical Corps Officer. Joshua, you are a moron. Concerning the vaccines causing breast inflammation, this is pure bullshit. Concerning immunizations in general, they have saved millions of lives world-wide. The number of childhood deaths are way down thanks to the HIB and meningitis vaccines alone. The Covid virus is concerning because it seems to kill healthy people for no good reason. The new vaccines may help, probably won’t hurt. All the reports of weird untoward reactions are mostly journalistic hype, anything to get people to read your articles. So Mike, I think you should stop scaring your viewers with your bullshit comments about the vaccines.

I would quibble with Dr. Stan when he says that the new COVID-19 vaccines only “may help.” No, they will definitely help. He is, however, correct about vaccines in general and that the claim that the COVID-19 vaccine causes “breast inflammation” is BS; it causes local inflammation that can result in enlargement of the local lymph node basis, where lymph nodes do what lymph nodes, being part of the immune system, do when they encounter lymph drainage from an area of inflammation. They enlarge and get ready to combat potential threats. In any event, the rest of the comments (e.g., “oncologists are merchants of death”) are what you would expect in the comment section of Natural News.

The bottom line is that, practically speaking, the observation that a vaccine injected into the shoulder can cause inflammation of local lymph nodes, such as lymph nodes under the arm or above the clavicle, is a big nothingburger. Doctors have noted the phenomenon and changed breast imaging guidelines in a cautious and reasonable manner to compensate. It is indeed very important to reassure women by explaining this phenomenon clearly, but that’s not what antivaxxers are out to do. They want to frighten women into thinking that this observed adverse event means that the vaccine is causing some sort of inflammation that is causing breast cancer. Unfortunately, I fully expect that, sooner or later, antivaxxers will start finding anecdotes of women who developed enlarged lymph nodes after COVID-19 vaccination and were found to have breast cancer.

It’s coming, just as the claim that COVID-19 vaccines cause autism will be coming, just as soon as a COVID-19—any COVID-19 vaccine—is approved for children and babies. That’s how antivaxxers roll, and always have rolled.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

120 replies on “COVID-19 vaccination, lymph nodes, and mammography guidelines”

I think you are optimistic. I suppose anti-vaxxers will blame the Covid-19 vaccine (any Covid-19 vaccine) for children with autism as soon as someone who hads been vaccinated, gets a child. Because it is always the vaccines for them. If they can’t blame the vaccination of the child, they will blame the vaccination of the mother.

“Joshua, you are a moron.”
That’s the best laugh I’m going to have for some time.

As I started reading our host’s article I started to formulate a number of questions about things like the consequences of delaying to see if the swellings subside, if they tended to be unilateral, and the like. Lo and behold, all of my questions were answered! Thanks, Orac.

One thing I remain curious about is if all of this could be avoided by injecting the vaccine into the vastus lateralis where the draining lymph nodes would be far from the breast. Of course doing the injection there is not as convenient and more invasive of personal privacy, but it might have its merits.

One could give this IM vaccination in the vastus lateralis of the upper leg (as is done in infants for their vaccines). Then you’d only be dealing with inguinal-area lymph nodes. Everyone has been receiving their doses in the deltoid but the EUA fact sheets for providers for Pfizer and Moderna vaccines simply specify intramuscular (IM) andministration.

Just as long as they’re not in the gluts. I’ve had IM injections there. Makes sitting uncomfortable.

Honestly, I’m done. I can’t even muster anger any more. There is nothing and no-one these scum won’t abuse for a buck. And the morons love them for it.

I think the Health Danger needs to go catch himself a lethal case of COVID, and then he can measure whose lymph nodes are swollen the most. You know, for Science!

They want to frighten women into thinking that this observed adverse event means that the vaccine is causing some sort of inflammation that is causing breast cancer

Orac, if I may interject here, I would say that the ‘antivaxxers’ argument cannot be completely dismissed. The vaccine is causing inflammation in the breast lymph nodes and leading to a lump which IS not cancer, but the fact that it’s causing such a massive inflammation should give us pause for concern that it MIGHT cause cancer. That’s because the overwhelmingly agreed upon culprit in cancer is inflammation — and, in this case, massive inflammation with it detectable on scans. Why aren’t natural covid infections causing such lumps?! Hhmmnn!

On that last point, I thought it was said that the mRNA breaks down quickly at the injection site? Why is it ending up in the breast lymph nodes? Seriously, once injected in the body, does anyone really know where it’s going or what it’s doing?!

The vaccine is causing inflammation in the breast lymph nodes and leading to a lump which IS not cancer, but the fact that it’s causing such a massive inflammation should give us pause for concern that it MIGHT cause cancer.

Twelve days left on your prediction, Gerg. Thanks for giving CK an opportunity to further babble about cytokines, though.

It’s the immune response that is travelling to the lymph nodes, Greg–not the mRNA from the vaccine. Immune cells hang out and travel to/from lymph nodes which (since your grasp of the science here is little) are like army bases for the immune system.

mRNA injected into muscle–>taken up into extracellular medium by muscle cells –>spike protein made by muscle cells (an antigen that evokes an immune response) that then becomes extracellular where immune cells respond to this foreign protein. Some of those immune cells wind up in neighboring lymph nodes to further amplify the immune response.

Nevermind, you’re not listening anyhow Gerg.

Some of those immune cells wind up in neighboring lymph nodes to further amplify the immune response.

Christopher, from muscle in the arm to breast lymph nodes, is that really ‘neighboring’? Also, I thought whether cancer or pathogens, it’s the closest lymph nodes that are activated. How are we sure that these foreign proteins are not getting mass produced throughout the body and creating extensive collateral damage?

Human body has lymphatic vessels. Immune cells can go anywhere with it.

Christopher, from muscle in the arm to breast lymph nodes, is that really ‘neighboring’? Also, I thought whether cancer or pathogens, it’s the closest lymph nodes that are activated. How are we sure that these foreign proteins are not getting mass produced throughout the body and creating extensive collateral damage?

Go pull up an image of where lymph nodes cluster anatomically and you will see the axillary/clavicular nodes (as shown in the localizded diagrem in this article) are the nearest neighbor to the deltoid muscle. Lymphatic drainage (owing to one-way valves in the lymphatic vessels) flows toward the heart, hence when a physician sees a patient with only a local area of lymph node swelling, the physician knows where the lymph that drains to those nodes came from.

Pfizer vaccine has 30 micrograms and Moderna has 100 micrograms of mRNA per the PI for each. mRNA is not replicated by cells and only results in production of the spike protein if it is taken up by a cell. Once inside a cell (where the spike protein production begins) the mRNA is stable for a short time (minutes to a day or two), after which it degrades can’t be used to make any more spike protein. Since the mRNA only makes spike protein and not the SARS-CoV-2 virus, whatever amount of spike protein you get from those small amounts of mRNA is all you are even going to get–i.e. the spike protein is not being “mass produced”.

“from muscle in the arm to breast lymph nodes”

It’s from the deltoid muscle in the upper arm to axillary and supra-clavicular lymph nodes not the breast lymph nodes.

“is that really ‘neighboring’?”

Yes, it really is.

“Also…it’s the closest lymph nodes that are activated”

They ARE the lymph nodes that are closest to the deltoid muscle.

“How are we sure that these foreign proteins are not getting mass produced throughout the body and creating extensive collateral damage?”

Pretty sure. Clinical trials and follow-up surveillance of the 120 million people world-wide who have has at least on dose of the vaccine so far.

Seriously, once injected in the body, does anyone really know where it’s going or what it’s doing?!

It’s called pharmacokinetics, the study of where drugs go in the body, how long they stick around, and how the body gets rid of it. You can’t get FDA approval for a drug without pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics studies.

Wait! Greg said that the overwhelmingly agreed upon culprit for cancer is inflamation. Does Greg know what culprit means? Or have I missed a vital piece of knowledge while I’ve been following this blog?

Ahhhhh. It’s all in the phrasing. Chronic inflammation can lead to cancers in some situations.

You are a moron, Greg.

If inflammation caused cancer at the inflamed spot, then we’re all dead by now due to childhood strep throats and consequent throat cancers.
Also, they did not find the lymph nodes swollen due to excess viral mRNA, but due to immune response and a lot of white blood cells. If you knew what mRNA is, you would know that it cannot travel all over the body, it would be readily destroyed by white blood cells.

Puh-leese, get some cell biology 101, at least you won’t talk nonsense.

It should be emphasized that a clinical presentation of lymphadenopathy leads has a benign etiology in the vast majority of cases, according to multiple studies. Those studies may even underestimate the percentage of benign cases, since they looked at situations in which there was sufficient clinical concern to warrant biopsy.

http://statpearls.com/ArticleLibrary/viewarticle/24549

One possible idea to minimize concern in breast cancer patients receiving Covid-19 vaccination would be to have the vaccine administered in the patient’s arm on the contralateral side to the tumor. Lymphadenopathy would still have to be followed, but if it occurs on the side away from the cancer there would be more comfort with following the patient and avoiding unnecessary biopsy.

*”Greg, you are a moron.”

Couldn’t a vigilant person if they were so worried also examine the area which might be affected prior to getting the shot and then observe if any changes occur immediately after? The article cited even suggested a time-line which at the very least may calm them down if it appeared right after the shot and then dissipated later..

The only thing is, both these ideas can only be used once we know of the problem, not for the first cases. So they sound like things worth considering going forward, for people like Dr. Quasha.

One possible idea to minimize concern in breast cancer patients receiving Covid-19 vaccination would be to have the vaccine administered in the patient’s arm on the contralateral side to the tumor.

Bit. Dangerpis One, as I pointed out to Lear, in many cases with nearly half the population naturally infected and immune, it may not be necessary to risk these adverse outcomes. Seems like another expert is also agreeing with me. So, again, is the thinking, more ‘medicine’. all the better, and, in this case, even if women’s cancer screenings have to take a backseat?

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/screenb4vaccine-could-protect-covid-vaccine-injuries/?itm_term=home

Additionally, Noorchashm says that by limiting vaccinations to those who are not already immune, the U.S. can not only protect people from being harmed by the vaccine, but can also get to herd immunity even faster by vaccinating only those who would truly benefit from the vaccine.

Excellent point! But, of course, that might involve reduced profits. Yet, we can all agree that protecting the public always trumps such considerations (wink wink).

that might involve reduced profits. Yet, we can all agree that protecting the public always trumps such considerations

A dead customer doesn’t buy medicine, greg.
For someone who claims to be street-smart, I’m surprised you don’t know this.

And it’s not like the sells of vaccines will stop anytime soon. The demand currently outstrips the offer.
Oh no, profits are not going to be reduced. I trust big pharma on this.
And Winter is virus variants are coming.
You know nothing, greg.

A dead customer doesn’t buy medicine, greg.

Athaic, you are not addressing the point. Why give the vaccines to people that had covid and are immune. If it’s not about profits then what is it? Hubris, incompetence, or just plain stupidity?

Athaic, we may dispute the degree of risks with the vaccines, but I am sure you would agree that there are some; why have folks take any then if it’s not necessary? Doesn’t the precautionary principle mean anything, or is it null and void with vaccines!

Hubris, incompetence, or just plain stupidity?

Nothing like a self-trifecta.

Why give the vaccines to people that had covid and are immune

Two things
1) Are they immune?
2) How can we tell who has had covid?
The answer is likely to be because it is simpler and faster to just vaccinate everyone as opposed to identifying who has had covid and excluding them.

The answer is likely to be because it is simpler and faster to just vaccinate everyone as opposed to identifying who has had covid excluding them.

‘Simpler’ for who, Julian? People or the government — or pharma?! Is it simpler for people to risk Bell’s, thrombosis, anaphylactic reactions, and so on if they don’t have to?

There is a reason why the vaccines are only given emergency authorization, Julian. All the risks are not properly known. Now we are compelling people to those risks when for some it may not be necessary?! Sorry, Julian, I don’t see anything ‘simple’ there. I just see stupidity, and that’s being kind.

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For someone who claims to be street-smart,

Don’t recall ever claiming to be street-smart. Actually, I would be the last person to survive on the streets. Is Athaic agreeing that I am smart, but she is not quite sure where it’s coming from? Hhmmnn!

Yeah. Let’s activate a whole ton of lymph nodes instead of a few, is that your plan? Especially the ones draining the lung parenchyma? Do you understand that this virus KILLS? I have a guy in the ICU fighting like hell for his life just to see his granddaughter one more time because she’s not allowed in. Let’s let ‘er rip and make tens of thousands more like him.

Can someone explain to me why all of these science papers that mistakenly used a skin cell cancer to study breast cancer have not all been retracted (some papers are still using this, misidentified MDA-MB-435) in papers in 2020. A total of 890 peer review published science papers used the wrong cancer cells. How many women/men (yes men get breast cancer too) could have been saved because of this medical error.

https://www.nature.com/articles/npjbcancer20152

Millions of dollars and millions of hours were all wasted. This is just one mislabeled cell line. And you still want people to follow the science.

Mistakes happen. Science is a collective process with lots of different people checking each other’s work and trying to duplicate it and improve on it.

That’s how errors like this one get caught. I vastly prefer a methodology that is continuously testing its ideas and discarding incorrect ones over the “revealed truth” model that underlies practically all of the methods of naturopathy and alternate medicine in general.

You can read some more at this link on the same subject.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ijc.31067

And this cell line is just a model, used for early testing of possible therapeutics. If they look promising, those are then tested in live animal models like rats, and perhaps eventually humans. The vast majority of drugs that look promising in these early stage models turn out not to work on actual cancers in humans. So while a lot of time and money were used on studies before this cell line contamination was discovered and confirmed, it’s difficult to say how many lives might have been saved if a different cell line had been used.

You mean the correct cell line, to soften the monstrosity of this is to big to explain in rational terms. “they look promising”, how could they ever look promising?

My question still stands, why after over 20 years are scientific papers still using a misidentified cell line and why haven’t all those papers (and the subsequent papers that cite those papers been retracted). Your idea of “revealed truth” doesn’t cut it, the “revealed truth” is these papers were all WRONG and no one has bothered to correct the error and retract these papers. WHY!?!?! this is fraud. Where are the people who peer reviewed these papers ??? where is the accountability in all this? Treatments were recommended based on these papers and people died because of these papers.

This is not the first time something like this has happened nor will it be the last, and the “science” will cover it up. Sad.

This is because human cells have quite similar biochemistry. Epidermal cells and ductal cells are even more similar. Not to mention that all cell culture models are less than perfect. Cell cultures do not have immune system, among other things.
Nobody has died because of this. Drug approval requires clinical trials.
Btw, lymph nodes fight pathogens. This is as obvious a heart pumping blood. (Main activity of an organ.)

The actual topic was addressed on Wisconsin Public Radio’s Larry Meiller show last Tuesday. I’ve been wondering on and off how his guest, Dr. Roberta Stringel, would have reacted had Kay somehow gotten through the call screener(s) and started yammering about “the monstrosity.”

@ Orac

I came across one that I’d never heard before.

Are you sure? “Vaccines cause cancer” is pretty old trope. tripes. Whatever.
But I’ll agree, “OMG, lymph nodes are doing their job” is not something one hears everyday.

(I sometimes wonder if these other “authors” for Adams’ site are just pen names for the man orchestrating the nonsense, but on the other hand not even Mike Adams could churn out the sheer quantity of conspiracy mongering and quackery on his site all by himself.)

Maybe Adams invested in artificial intelligence. Program a computer with fearmongering rant templates, select the topics du jour, and press a button to churn off a dozen articles or two.

I’ve had one vaccine where my armpit lymph nodes swelled up – the smallpox vaccine. It was kind of uncomfortable, but not a big deal and the doctor (who was so excited to vaccinate me) did warn me about it.

A woman who discovers a lump(s) the same week she got her 1st covid vaccine wouldn’t be delaying a mammogram for just “a few weeks”, if the recommendation to wait until 6 weeks after the 2nd vaccine were followed; she’d be waiting for 9 weeks.

My friend who found a lump during the first week of February got in right away, due to a strong family history of breast cancer. Her bilateral mastectomy is scheduled for March 8th … That’s what you can do in 9 weeks.

This is insane.

What a conundrum. Who should we be listening to? The breast cancer researcher? Or the woman with a history of lying who can’t do basic math?

@ Terrie,

This antivaxer is just wondering why a breast cancer surgeon is okay with delaying diagnostics out of preference for being vaccinated. Delay the vaccine, not the mammogram, especially if you are under 65.

@Christine, are you admitting you didn’t read what Orac wrote, or is the another example of you lying? Because here’s what it actually says.

So the SBI advisory to do mammograms either before receiving the COVID-19 vaccine or 4-6 weeks after the second dose of the vaccine is both a reasonable and practical response to this observation.

@ Terrie:

She can’t read too well either.
For months, Orac’s minions have been discussing research about why autism is not caused by vaccines addressed through multiple avenues of inquiry:
— no association between vaccination and autism ( KiGGS; Jain et al.)
— investigation of prenatal anomalous brain growth ( Courchesne; Stoner et al; Lein)
— early indicators of autism ( Ozonoff; EEG/ MRI studies)

Interested readers can easily find separate enlightening interviews and lectures by Jain, Ozonoff and Courchesne: the last is a neuroscientist who has studied autism since 1980 and his Rutgers lecture, while not taped, can be viewed purely for its slides including those about prenatal brain overgrowth. He also has a 19 minute interview ( Autism Research Foundation) that neatly encapsulates his extensive, highly cited work which continues today..

Anti-vaxxers can’t learn but others can.. .

Is there any evidence that the doctor in the story has a family history of breast cancer?

Of course people with a family history of breast cancer would be given the option to treat their cancer more aggressively.

But not every lump is cancer. Sometimes they’re cysts. Giving the patient the option to engage in watchful waiting of a few weeks might be the best course of action. Given that we don’t know this particular doctor’s history, we can’t say one way or the other. Cancer treatments are not one-size-fits-all.

@ Christine Kincaid

[Orac, I would appreciate if you would comment on the following. I am NOT an expert on cancer.]

CK: you do realize that any infection, flu, common cold, can result in swollen lymph nodes, not just vaccines?

You also realize that if the swollen lymph nodes are caused by metastasizing cancer that it has already spread?

You do realize that if the woman actually discovered a lump, this is usually different from a swollen lymph node and without a mammogram, a doctor could still exam, and, perhaps, decide on a mammogram. Recommendations are not written in stone?

In any case, let’s assume you are right. This means that breast cancer surgeons may be prioritizing vaccines over mammograms, delaying potential treatment, and potentially consigning women to a possibly more serious stage of cancer as it advances.

Do you really think that Orac and other breast cancer surgeons are that callous?

And, what would happen to a woman with actual breast cancer who developed COVID-19?

I suggest if you ever think you have breast cancer, given what you think of breast cancer surgeons, that you avail yourself of some naturopath.

And, as usual, you ignore that I have previously refuted, with evidence, your previous comments. Most recently, that platelets inhibit the immune response and inflammation when they actually increase it.

And, you continue to ignore that your very premature, very low birthweight twins were at high risk for SIDS. What is SIDS? Cessation of breathing, that is APNEA and, very premature, very low birthweight infants have up to 50% risk of apnea. Why? Because apnea doesn’t need an external trigger, just brain cells “misfiring”.

I shouldn’t say this; but since you just continue with your Gish Gallup, ignoring being refuted. So, I’ll speculate.

There is good evidence that smoking and/or drinking and/or drug use can cause very low birthweight and/or very premature births. Other possibilities are sexual promiscuity, venereal diseases, even possibly legitimate medicines for various conditions. Given just how desperate you are to blame vaccines, perhaps, it is your guilt that some aspect of your lifestyle was responsible or your genetic problems.

However, as opposed to your totally pulling things out of your ass and the above having backing in research, it is also possible that someone can lead an exemplary life, no smoking, no drinking, no drugs, healthy diet, moderate exercise, etc. and still have a very premature, very low birthweight infant. As they say “shit happens”. So, as opposed to your absolute certainty it was the vaccine, especially given the extreme low birthweight and prematurity of your twins, I think one of the above behaviors by you responsible; but, only a reasonable probability, not even close to a certainty.

But, if you did lead an exemplary life during pregnancy, the only other explanation is your are either very stupid and/or delusional and/or, as Greg, just need to irritate people.

Well, I can’t comment on a woman with breast cancer getting COVID, but I can comment that COVID is impacting women with breast cancer. A friend going through treatment developed an infection that required hospitalization and IV antibiotics. There were no beds open. They made do with an observation room, which was less than ideal. She was probably sent home sooner than she should have been, but with no room and the risk of encountering someone with COVID, she was happy to go.

In a resource-rich area with lots of availability if you are well-insured or have a lot of money. Most of my patients are lucky to get a mammo in twice that time and have to decide between the cost/copay and food on the table. Get real.

I can’t get tests for my victims. I don’t want to punch into nasty, over-juicy lymphanodes. It should be a matter of public health. This is totally irresponsible.

This is definitely useful information for me: I had the first dose of the Moderna vaccine last weekend, and have a mammogram scheduled for March 15. I’ve already postponed it once for pandemic reasons–December seemed like a good time to stay home and avoid any unnecessary or non-urgent in-person medical care. Thanks.

When she found a lump in her left breast

Still, trying to figure this out…

So the axillary lymph nodes are a network of nodes and lymph vessels leading into the breast. So, why does the lump not start closer to the injection site under the arm, but in the breast? Could it be that my first hunch was right? It’s not immune cells responding to the foreign proteins produced at the injection site as Christopher and Billy Joe explained, but those foreign proteins making into the breast and causing an immune reaction or lump there. And, indeed if this is the case, such an inflammatory response may very well lead to cancer down the road.

“So the axillary lymph nodes are a network of nodes and lymph vessels leading into the breast”.

No.

“So, why does the lump not start closer to the injection site under the arm”

It does. It starts in the axillary lymph nodes under the arm. The axilla is the armpit.

“Could it be that my first hunch was right?”

No, because it is based on false information.

“It’s not immune cells responding to the foreign proteins produced at the injection site as Christopher and Billy Joe explained, but those foreign proteins making into the breast and causing an immune reaction or lump there”

I said no such thing.

“such an inflammatory response may very well lead to cancer down the road”

What does “very well” mean. What probability are you assigning to this?

I think Barney Frank had the right idea re arguing with dining-room tables.

It does. It starts in the axillary lymph nodes under the arm. The axilla is the armpit.

BillyJoe, again, if that were the case, why are the women just noticing lumps in their breasts and not also in their armpits as JT explained he experienced once with a vaccine?
BillyJoe, look again at that image of the axillary lymph nodes. Notice how the terminal loop of it ends in the breast. Again, what’s more likely — an armpit reaction producing a lump in the breast, or the lump forming from a ‘trigger’ that’s actually IN the breast?

Greg, your reading comprehension is atrocious.

Let’s try this again.
First, the doctor in the article finds a lump in her breast, and schedules a mammogram.

THEN (after finding the lump but before having the mammogram) she gets the Moderna vaccine.

The lump was already there before she was vaccinated. That is why the position of the lump has nothing to do with the lymph nodes or vaccination site.

Now start over and try again.

I’ll borrow this from JT as further supporting my point…

I’ve had one vaccine where my armpit lymph nodes swelled up

With these women, it’s not their armpit lymph nodes close to the injection site swelling, but they experiencing lumps IN the breast — just like cancer and infections IN the breast produce lumps.

Perhaps they notice lumps in their breasts because they are educated to check symptoms of breast cancer ?
HPV does cause cancer. But reason is not inflammation:
Münger K, Scheffner M, Huibregtse JM, Howley PM. Interactions of HPV E6 and E7 oncoproteins with tumour suppressor gene products. Cancer Surveys. 1992 ;12:197-217.

Don’t twist my words, Greg.

Again: the doctor noticed the lump BEFORE getting the vaccine. Therefore the lump can’t have anything to do with the vaccine.

“Unfortunately, I fully expect that, sooner or later, antivaxxers will start finding anecdotes of women who developed enlarged lymph nodes after COVID-19 vaccination and were found to have breast cancer.”

It’s just like childhood vaccinations and autism. The only way you wouldn’t find such anecdotes is if SARS-CoV2 vaccination prevented breast cancer…

Ah well.

Because there are a couple of antivax posters here who, through ignorance or maliciousness* are leaving the impression that Covid-19 vaccination causes “breast lumps”, it’s important to emphasize that this is not the case.

What’s been reported is a higher incidence of axillary (armpit) lymph node enlargement after Covid-19 vaccination compared to placebo. There are numerous reasons why someone might have axillary lymph node enlargement, generally benign but sometimes due to malignancy. So, physicians who are now alerted to the possibility of temporary axillary lymphadenopathy will follow these patients, paying particular attention to those who have had or might have breast cancer based on other clinical findings, while avoiding unnecessary biopsies.

Lymph nodes as Orac noted may occur within breast tissue but this is relatively uncommon, and I am not seeing reports of intramammary nodes enlarging due to Covid-19 vaccination. Typical lymph node drainage from the vaccination site in the arm is to axillary nodes, not to the breast.

There’s a choice here between getting an mRNA-based Covid-19 vaccination and having a 1-in-7 possibility of temporary axillary lymph node enlargement which could be worrisome, or going unprotected and contracting a potentially fatal coronavirus infection. For the vast majority of people this would be an easy choice.

*or both.

What I’m mainly getting is that some of these people haven’t been near a breast since they were weaned.

@ DB,

You’re not seeing any reports … are you looking? Or waiting to be told?

VAERS ID: 0911226-1 is regarding a 5 month old breastfed infant who began vomiting & was hospitalized on Dec 19, after her her mother received Pfizer on Dec 18.

VAERS ID: 0992676-1 is regarding a 2 month old breastfed infant who was hospitalized 2 days after his mother received Pfizer with hematemesis and coffee ground stool.

VAERS ID: 0918764-1 is regarding a 40 yo breastfeeding mother who developed lumps in her left armpit one day after the Pfizer resulting in hidradenitis & Mastitis.

There are hundreds of reports involving illness in breast fed infants, breast pain, breast lumps & even pustules developing on areola Montgomery glands, within hours to days of being vaccinated.

VAERS ID: 0915059-1; Montgomery gland cysts & Mastitis
VAERS ID: 0908454-1; lymph nodes & breast swelling
VAERS ID: 0924696-1; left arm pain, decreased breast milk
VAERS ID: 0916272-1; cellulitis, left breast
VAERS ID: 0904361-1; enlarged lymph nodes, progressed to edema & golf ball sized lump in left breast

And on & on & on …

https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=6AD8929AB9106ACD30BCD392332F

I see that you are still automatically assuming causality on these ‘hundreds’ of reports.

Still, I’m glad people are reporting potential issues.

Montgomery gland cysts and decreased breast milk reported to VAERS? Ban the vaccines!!!

FDA follow up analysis is here:
https://www.fda.gov/media/146269/download
Go to page 17. There incidents reported after vaccination are compared with normal background.
Obviously, people will have health problems without vaccination and you must consider this when doing a safety analysis.

Because there are a couple of antivax posters here who, through ignorance or maliciousness* are leaving the impression that Covid-19 vaccination causes “breast lumps”, it’s important to emphasize that this is not the case.

Dangerous One, indeed the reports are suggesting women are noticing lumps IN their breasts. Axillary lymphadenopathy is given as an explanation, but the swellings are occurring IN the breasts.

As I explained, the fact that the swellings are occurring in the breast and not the armpit is puzzling. It would suggest the problem is not due from maurading immune cells, but some trigger in the breast leading to the inflammation — more of a site specific problem.

PS: Some suggest that a ‘pandemic’ that only kills those with one foot in the grave is not a true pandemic. If in a few years covid vaccination were to unleash the mother of all autoimmunity and cancer epidemics, then we would be successful in creating a true covid pandemic

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-9320457/Mammograms-pick-harmless-breast-lumps-Covid-vaccine.html

So much wrong, on so many levels, in so few sentences.

Some suggest that a ‘pandemic’ that only kills those with one foot in the grave is not a true pandemic.

Yes. We call them Nazis. Also, your comment assumes that this is the case. It’s not.
Oh, and linking to the Daily Fail? Seriously?

You haven’t ‘explained’ anything. However, you have flirted with the idea that a few more hundred thousand deaths and the total gridlock of your health service would be preferable to vaccination.

Greg, the doctors in the article state that the lumps are being found in the axillary lymph nodes. It’s the Daily Fail reporter who gets the details wrong and inaccurately claims the lumps are in the breast. Daily Fail gotta Daily Fail.

It’s been a special week for me in the SARS-CoV-2 world. I got my first vaccination yesterday (Pfizer version. My wife had previously gotten the Moderna shots).

Later in the day, I got a packet for a six month update test in the serology study I participated in last fall. So this morning I pricked my finger and squeezed the blood onto the absorbent tips. Now I’m waiting for FedEx to pick up the package while my grandson plays some game on his dad’s old phone.

I’m presuming the little mRNA’s haven’t had enough time to make proteins and produce enough antibodies to affect those results.
If they do a follow-up questionnaire I’ll be sure to tell them.

So far only mild discomfort in the arm. A little general muscle soreness, but that is more likely due to my extended walk the day before.

I took a little ibuprofen and feel fine.

It may be a day early, but I updated my Covid-19 day spreadsheet today.
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/02/05/dr-hooman-noorchashm-and-screenb4vaccine-revisited/#comment-440075

Here are the normalized cases per 100K

Month … U.S. wide … California … Florida
Aug………….17.4 ………….16.9 ………..34.1
Sep ……….. 12.5 ………… 12.5 ………. 16.5
Oct ……….. 14.4 ………… 8.3 ……….. 11.0
Nov ……… 29.3 ………… 12.3 ……… 21.8
Dec ……….. 58.5 ………… 49.5 ……… 42.8
Jan ……….. 69.1 ………… 97.1 ……… 66.4
Feb ……….. 37.1 ………… 37.3 ………. 43.4
Mar …………. 20.5 …………… 11.9 ………… 25.2

So, what to make of these numbers?

Obviously, whatever California is doing is working better than Florida. Case rates have dropped from 50% higher to less than half as many. In the last month, California has reduced their case count to 31.9% of the previous month. Whereas, Florida is only down to 58.1% of the previous month.

Case fatality rates are 1.52% for California, 1.62% for Florida, and 1.83% for the U.S. as a whole.

A lot of states ran into a stall in mid-February, but most states are continuing to improve again. Michigan seems to be on a slight uptrack still.

New Mexico is one of the top states for vaccinations. My visit yesterday helped us get to 23.3% with 12.6% having both doses. That puts us right behind Alaska.

California has 17% (7.7 both) while Florida has 15% (8.7%) including the Key West donor enclave.

2.04 million people were vaccinated yesterday with June 11 being the projected day for 50% vaccinated.

J&J vaccines have arrived here in New Mexico and the computer forms were setup for that as an option, but I got the Pfizer.

I haven’t seen any recent news about Novavax, but there are cross-vaccination trials kicking off for Pfizer and AstraZeneca.

Dallas is targeting several under-served zip codes including 3 in the Oak Cliff area south of the river. Those are predominately Hispanic or black. But transportation across the river to Fair Park might be problematic.

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/public-health/2021/02/24/dallas-federal-covid-vaccine-site-set-to-open-wednesday-but-registrations-appointments-lag-in-targeted-zip-codes/

And Governor Abbott’s removal of the mask mandate and opening all businesses may make it difficult for local authorities in Dallas County and other urban counties to keep local restrictions going and avoid a 4th wave.

@ Terrie; “@Christine, are you admitting you didn’t read what Orac wrote, or is the another example of you lying? Because here’s what it actually says.

So the SBI advisory to do mammograms either before receiving the COVID-19 vaccine or 4-6 weeks after the second dose of the vaccine is both a reasonable and practical response to this observation.”

Neither. Reports on VAERS are stating that lumps are being found within days of injections. Women are doing self-exams after experiencing pain following immunizations. There are 3 weeks in between the first dose & the second. If you advise women to wait until 6 weeks after the 2nd dose; you are potentially delaying diagnostics for 9 weeks.

Changing your story again? Are you claiming your friend is getting a double mastectomy because she got the vaccine? You know what another word is for constantly changing your story? Lying! Come back when you learn how to be honest.

Let me see if I have this right…you think they have a palpable lump DAYS after the vaccine? Do you have any clue how long it takes even aggressive cancers to divide enough times to form a palpable mass? I guess the fact that inflammation, the obvious answer, can do this is hours means nothing and we’d better go looking for this scary, physiologically-impossible cancer. Please go spend some time away from your screen and rethink what your life means or can mean. You can be better.

@ Christine Kincaid

You and your ilk keep referring to VAERS. Let me give an analogy. When some serious crime is committed, the police round up “suspects”, now called “persons of interest”. Newspapers often give their names. Perhaps, one of these is then indicted and a trial commences. If people think as you do regarding VAERS, then they would automatically assume each and every “person of interest” is guilty, perhaps crime committed by multiple perps, and, if on jury, would decide guilty and ignore the evidence, after all, police and DA wouldn’t indict if not guilty. As I explained in a previous exchange of comments, teams at CDC monitor VAERS and investigate even a few serious cases, including actually obtaining medical records. But, you would prefer we dismantle these teams and accept whatever people post on VAERS. And, despite studies showing only 1% of adverse events are posted on VAERS, studies have also shown that far more, up to 25% of serious adverse reactions are posted. It was, in fact, VAERS reports of intussusception following first FDA approved vaccine for rotavirus that led to rapid withdrawal from market. Oh, FDA has an authority to withdraw vaccines from market that it doesn’t have for other pharmaceutical or medical devices, which can take years, even a decade to finally remove, despite clear harms, deaths and disabilities, found. You can find several posts by Orac on VAERS.

In addition, there are a number of other monitoring systems for vaccines, including Vaccine Safety Datalink, which, has direct access to patient records in real time.

Oh, one last thing. People that were reported as suspects, when shown totally innocent, have often met with continued harassment. Once people decide guilty, no amount of evidence will change their minds. Sounds like you. There was a case in San Jose, CA, where police, with no knock warranty, broke into a house shared by a woman and two infants. They were all pushed to the ground, held at gunpoint, terrified. Then woman was arrested for drugs, kids put in foster homes. Then it came out that police had gotten the wrong address, South vs North of same street, but dropped some drugs in house, rather than admit they made a mistake. The woman was released, won a substantial lawsuit and, still, was forced to move far away as she continuously received threats. So, keep on citing VAERS you stupid moronic vicious person. I wouldn’t want you on a jury.

@ Greg

You write: “The vaccine is causing inflammation in the breast lymph nodes and leading to a lump which IS not cancer, but the fact that it’s causing such a massive inflammation should give us pause for concern that it MIGHT cause cancer. That’s because the overwhelmingly agreed upon culprit in cancer is inflammation — and, in this case, massive inflammation with it detectable on scans. Why aren’t natural covid infections causing such lumps?!”

First, “While lymphocytopenia is a common characteristic of patients infected by the novel severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the mechanisms responsible for this depletion are unclear. Through careful inspection of the spleens and lymph nodes (LNs) from six cases with postmortem examinations, we observed that SARS-CoV-2 could directly infect secondary lymphoid organs.” [Feng Z et al (2020 Preprint). The Novel Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) Directly Decimates Human Spleens and Lymph Nodes. medRxiv.]

So, just one of many articles where lymph nodes are involved. And, they don’t get involved unless swollen.

Second, “Inflammation is a normal physiological response that causes injured tissue to heal. An inflammatory process starts when chemicals are released by the damaged tissue. In response, white blood cells make substances that cause cells to divide and grow to rebuild tissue to help repair the injury. Once the wound is healed, the inflammatory process ends.

In chronic inflammation, the inflammatory process may begin even if there is no injury, and it does not end when it should. Why the inflammation continues is not always known. Chronic inflammation may be caused by infections that don’t go away, abnormal immune reactions to normal tissues, or conditions such as obesity. Over time, chronic inflammation can cause DNA damage and lead to cancer. For example, people
with chronic inflammatory bowel diseases, such as ulcerative colitis and Crohn disease, have an increased risk of colon cancer.” [National Cancer Institute (2015 Apr 29). Chronic Inflammation]

I’m sure you don’t understand or don’t want to understand that there is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between an acute inflammation and a chronic inflammation.

Third, you write: ‘I thought it was said that the mRNA breaks down quickly at the injection site? Why is it ending up in the breast lymph nodes?”

NOPE, doesn’t end up in lymph nodes. mRNA is extremely fragile, breaks up rapidly in cell cytoplasm. However, the S spike protein that it codes for is projected on one of two MHC molecules on the outside of the cell, enabling the immune system to check it out and react. The result is, among other things, release of cytokines, messengers traveling blood and lymph alerting that an invader is present and battle going on. Depending on how serious this is, more cytokines are released. So, what is result of cytokines, among other things inflammation, simply swelling means masses of various immune cells are entering lymph nodes. Don’t you get anything right???

And keep in mind that the deltoid muscle where COVID vaccine injected is connected to the axillary and supraclavicular lymph nodes, thus, not systemic, though if serious infection, not vaccine, would be systemic. And cytokines also travel to hypothalamus and hypothalamus sends, among other things, prostaglandins which increase temperature, thus fever, etc.

Four, you write: “as I pointed out to Lear, in many cases with nearly half the population naturally infected and immune, it may not be necessary to risk these adverse outcomes. Seems like another expert is also agreeing with me.” Linking to the Children’s Defense Fund. Yep, an expert. Among other things, Robert Kennedy Jr. has stated on a number of occasions that there has not been a single placebo controlled clinical trial of a vaccine. Well, the very first one and the largest ever carried out in the U.S. was the Salk polio vaccine trial from 1954 to 1955. There were two arms, each with approximately 850,000 children, I repeat, 850,000 children. One arm was a cohort study, vaccine given to 3rd graders and 2nd and 4th graders were the control group. The other arm was a placebo controlled double-blind randomized clinical trial. The vials of vaccine had numbers that only the researchers in Ann Arbor, MI could decode. Neither doctors nor patients.could find out. By the way, I have read more than 500 articles and reports and own and have read a dozen books on polio. I was in first cohort that received vaccine after clinical trial. After that my mother allowed me to go to municipal swimming pool and movies. Another placebo controlled double-blind randomized clinical trial had 72,000 infants to test a rotavirus vaccine. Paul Offit was involved. So, yep, great “expert” you refer to and I could list a number of other lies from him. I say “lies” because given the number of years he has been attacking vaccines, I find it hard to believe he hasn’t come across literature clearly stating “placebo-controlled double-blind randomized clinical trial,” so either he is delusional or just plain dishonest in furthering his agenda.

As for “nearly half the population naturally infected and immune, it may not be necessary to risk these adverse outcomes”. I answered this in an earlier exchange, but just for sake of argument, let’s assume, despite RFK’s dishonesty, that this is true. First, far from herd immunity, which means outbreaks with hospitalization and deaths in significant numbers could still occur. Also, ignores there are new strains that are more transmissible and virulent. But, also, assumes that the “nearly half” is randomly distributed throughout the U.S.; but we know that some areas, e.g., New York City, had major outbreaks, whereas, others less so, which means that some areas of U.S. could have higher number exposed and other areas, smaller numbers, which, of course, especially with new strains could result in major surges. So, what are the valid stats?

From the COVID Tracking Project:

As of March 4, 2021 Cases (confirmed plus probable) = 28,585.852
Negative PCR tests = 79,685,561

The CDC, as of January 15, 2021, gives much higher numbers:
83.1 Million Estimated Total Infections [“Estimated”, not necessarily based on PCR testing]

So, assuming CDC estimates are acceptable, and increasing for next 7 weeks by a quarter, we could have 100 to 120 million exposed, that is, 1/3 of U.S. population. In any case, no evidence that I can find on any valid website that 1/2 of U.S. population has been exposed.

As for vaccinating. Despite your ignoring the scientific evidence and referring to RFK’s lying, sick organization, the vaccine is extremely safe and giving it to someone who has already been exposed can only increase their immune system. In fact, the COVID vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer have shown higher levels of antibodies than found in many who have tested positive. I can only guess; but possibly the immune system responds to a number of antigenic determinants on the COVID-19, so divided response; but with the vaccines, it focuses exclusively on the S-spike protein, which is what attaches to our cells. And according to Field’s Virology [two volume set consider the virology “Bible” with chapters on every infectious virus and large reference lists], the S-spike protein elicits BOTH ANTIBODIES AND T-CELLS, and some studies of vaccines have shown the same, thus resulting in a one-two punch of our immune systems against COVID-19

You write: “There is a reason why the vaccines are only given emergency authorization, Julian. All the risks are not properly known.” Actually, more and more studies have come out since the Emergency Use Authorization showing just how safe the vaccine is AND Pfizer vaccine was approved by the FDA on December 11 and Moderna on December 18, so just one more stupid claim by you, can’t even get your facts right.

I was a volunteer in the phase 3 clinical trial for the Moderna COVID vaccine. First shot, slightly sore arm. Second shot, very sore arm, slight fever and chills for a few hours. Didn’t take aspirin or ibuprofen because studies have found reduce immune response to vaccines. Oh, I am 75 years old. I am regular blood donor; but last Sunday, for first time, donated plasma to be used for hospitalized COVID patients. Two days later received notice that my antibodies were up to speed, so I will be donating plasma every four weeks, each donation can be used in up to four patients. And I won’t go into studies on whether plasma works all the time or not. It does help in many cases and that ’s enough for me.

By the way Greg, have you ever donated blood. And I contacted several food banks for volunteering. Now that I have immune system up to speed and with mask, I want to contribute to helping my fellow human beings.

And, as usual, you call me Lear. First, I guess you don’t understand that this blog is Science-Based Medicine, not English literature. Second, just additional evidence that you aren’t interested in a civil dialogue, so, if I’m Lear, you must be the spiritual equivalent to “The sisters Goneril and Regan . . . an example of characters that take evil to a new level. It can be argued that they are the most malicious characters of the play. They have betrayed Lear several times and have inflicted horrors on many others for self gain alone.” So, I can think of only two reasons that you post comments: 1. you are an extremely unhappy human being, probably with few friends, and the only joy you get is irritating anonymously people on a blog or 2. you hope you can persuade people to not get vaccinated because you want to see people suffer and die. Which is it?

From now on I will call you REGAN. OK???

Now, back to a fascinating book I’m reading: Margaret McMillan (2001). 1919: Six Months that Changed the World. About the peace conference following World War 1 and how it creating many problems, Middle East, and led to World War II.

I don’t think that Greg is lonely or unhappy, he’s far too smug for that. I think that he spends most of his day bathing in an ocean of anti-vax certainty. From his point of view pro-evidence people are a minority with undue influence. Like sinking into a nice hot bath at the end of a hard day, he replenishes his batteries by absorbing loud definitive statements, broadcast with a level of personal certainty unrelated to actual evidence.

After all, evidence isn’t needed. Someone else will find that at some nebulous time in the future. If the sky ever falls then chicken little can finally claim that he was right all along.

An example of a chronic infection is here:
Ulrich Spengler, Jacob Nattermann; Immunopathogenesis in hepatitis C virus cirrhosis. Clin Sci (Lond) 1 February 2007; 112 (3): 141–155. doi: https://doi.org/10.1042/CS20060171
Cirrhosis can indeed cause liver cancer, but this chronic infection is very specific.

@ Greg [Note. For some reason for two days I couldn’t access comments on previous exchange, so it is possible you didn’t see the following, thus, I’m reposting it. As usual, you don’t get anything right; but ignore and just keep making a fool of yourself]

You write: “The vaccine is causing inflammation in the breast lymph nodes and leading to a lump which IS not cancer, but the fact that it’s causing such a massive inflammation should give us pause for concern that it MIGHT cause cancer. That’s because the overwhelmingly agreed upon culprit in cancer is inflammation — and, in this case, massive inflammation with it detectable on scans. Why aren’t natural covid infections causing such lumps?!”

First, “While lymphocytopenia is a common characteristic of patients infected by the novel severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), the mechanisms responsible for this depletion are unclear. Through careful inspection of the spleens and lymph nodes (LNs) from six cases with postmortem examinations, we observed that SARS-CoV-2 could directly infect secondary lymphoid organs.” [Feng Z et al (2020 Preprint). The Novel Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) Directly Decimates Human Spleens and Lymph Nodes. medRxiv.]

So, just one of many articles where lymph nodes are involved. And, they don’t get involved unless swollen.

Second, “Inflammation is a normal physiological response that causes injured tissue to heal. An inflammatory process starts when chemicals are released by the damaged tissue. In response, white blood cells make substances that cause cells to divide and grow to rebuild tissue to help repair the injury. Once the wound is healed, the inflammatory process ends.

In chronic inflammation, the inflammatory process may begin even if there is no injury, and it does not end when it should. Why the inflammation continues is not always known. Chronic inflammation may be caused by infections that don’t go away, abnormal immune reactions to normal tissues, or conditions such as obesity. Over time, chronic inflammation can cause DNA damage and lead to cancer. For example, people
with chronic inflammatory bowel diseases, such as ulcerative colitis and Crohn disease, have an increased risk of colon cancer.” [National Cancer Institute (2015 Apr 29). Chronic Inflammation]

I’m sure you don’t understand or don’t want to understand that there is a MAJOR DIFFERENCE between an acute inflammation and a chronic inflammation.

Third, you write: ‘I thought it was said that the mRNA breaks down quickly at the injection site? Why is it ending up in the breast lymph nodes?”

NOPE, doesn’t end up in lymph nodes. mRNA is extremely fragile, breaks up rapidly in cell cytoplasm. However, the S spike protein that it codes for is projected on one of two MHC molecules on the outside of the cell, enabling the immune system to check it out and react. The result is, among other things, release of cytokines, messengers traveling blood and lymph alerting that an invader is present and battle going on. Depending on how serious this is, more cytokines are released. So, what is result of cytokines, among other things inflammation, simply swelling means masses of various immune cells are entering lymph nodes. Don’t you get anything right???

And keep in mind that the deltoid muscle where COVID vaccine injected is connected to the axillary and supraclavicular lymph nodes, thus, not systemic, though if serious infection, not vaccine, would be systemic. And cytokines also travel to hypothalamus and hypothalamus sends, among other things, prostaglandins which increase temperature, thus fever, etc.

Four, you write: “as I pointed out to Lear, in many cases with nearly half the population naturally infected and immune, it may not be necessary to risk these adverse outcomes. Seems like another expert is also agreeing with me.” Linking to the Children’s Defense Fund. Yep, an expert. Among other things, Robert Kennedy Jr. has stated on a number of occasions that there has not been a single placebo controlled clinical trial of a vaccine. Well, the very first one and the largest ever carried out in the U.S. was the Salk polio vaccine trial from 1954 to 1955. There were two arms, each with approximately 850,000 children, I repeat, 850,000 children. One arm was a cohort study, vaccine given to 3rd graders and 2nd and 4th graders were the control group. The other arm was a placebo controlled double-blind randomized clinical trial. The vials of vaccine had numbers that only the researchers in Ann Arbor, MI could decode. Neither doctors nor patients.could find out. By the way, I have read more than 500 articles and reports and own and have read a dozen books on polio. I was in first cohort that received vaccine after clinical trial. After that my mother allowed me to go to municipal swimming pool and movies. Another placebo controlled double-blind randomized clinical trial had 72,000 infants to test a rotavirus vaccine. Paul Offit was involved. So, yep, great “expert” you refer to and I could list a number of other lies from him. I say “lies” because given the number of years he has been attacking vaccines, I find it hard to believe he hasn’t come across literature clearly stating “placebo-controlled double-blind randomized clinical trial,” so either he is delusional or just plain dishonest in furthering his agenda.

As for “nearly half the population naturally infected and immune, it may not be necessary to risk these adverse outcomes”. I answered this in an earlier exchange, but just for sake of argument, let’s assume, despite RFK’s dishonesty, that this is true. First, far from herd immunity, which means outbreaks with hospitalization and deaths in significant numbers could still occur. Also, ignores there are new strains that are more transmissible and virulent. But, also, assumes that the “nearly half” is randomly distributed throughout the U.S.; but we know that some areas, e.g., New York City, had major outbreaks, whereas, others less so, which means that some areas of U.S. could have higher number exposed and other areas, smaller numbers, which, of course, especially with new strains could result in major surges. So, what are the valid stats?

From the COVID Tracking Project:

As of March 4, 2021 Cases (confirmed plus probable) = 28,585.852
Negative PCR tests = 79,685,561

The CDC, as of January 15, 2021, gives much higher numbers:
83.1 Million Estimated Total Infections [“Estimated”, not necessarily based on PCR testing]

So, assuming CDC estimates are acceptable, and increasing for next 7 weeks by a quarter, we could have 100 to 120 million exposed, that is, 1/3 of U.S. population. In any case, no evidence that I can find on any valid website that 1/2 of U.S. population has been exposed.

As for vaccinating. Despite your ignoring the scientific evidence and referring to RFK’s lying, sick organization, the vaccine is extremely safe and giving it to someone who has already been exposed can only increase their immune system. In fact, the COVID vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer have shown higher levels of antibodies than found in many who have tested positive. I can only guess; but possibly the immune system responds to a number of antigenic determinants on the COVID-19, so divided response; but with the vaccines, it focuses exclusively on the S-spike protein, which is what attaches to our cells. And according to Field’s Virology [two volume set consider the virology “Bible” with chapters on every infectious virus and large reference lists], the S-spike protein elicits BOTH ANTIBODIES AND T-CELLS, and some studies of vaccines have shown the same, thus resulting in a one-two punch of our immune systems against COVID-19

You write: “There is a reason why the vaccines are only given emergency authorization, Julian. All the risks are not properly known.” Actually, more and more studies have come out since the Emergency Use Authorization showing just how safe the vaccine is AND Pfizer vaccine was approved by the FDA on December 11 and Moderna on December 18, so just one more stupid claim by you, can’t even get your facts right.

I was a volunteer in the phase 3 clinical trial for the Moderna COVID vaccine. First shot, slightly sore arm. Second shot, very sore arm, slight fever and chills for a few hours. Didn’t take aspirin or ibuprofen because studies have found reduce immune response to vaccines. Oh, I am 75 years old. I am regular blood donor; but last Sunday, for first time, donated plasma to be used for hospitalized COVID patients. Two days later received notice that my antibodies were up to speed, so I will be donating plasma every four weeks, each donation can be used in up to four patients. And I won’t go into studies on whether plasma works all the time or not. It does help in many cases and that ’s enough for me.

By the way Greg, have you ever donated blood. And I contacted several food banks for volunteering. Now that I have immune system up to speed and with mask, I want to contribute to helping my fellow human beings.

And, as usual, you call me Lear. First, I guess you don’t understand that this blog is Science-Based Medicine, not English literature. Second, just additional evidence that you aren’t interested in a civil dialogue, so, if I’m Lear, you must be the spiritual equivalent to “The sisters Goneril and Regan . . . an example of characters that take evil to a new level. It can be argued that they are the most malicious characters of the play. They have betrayed Lear several times and have inflicted horrors on many others for self gain alone.” So, I can think of only two reasons that you post comments: 1. you are an extremely unhappy human being, probably with few friends, and the only joy you get is irritating anonymously people on a blog or 2. you hope you can persuade people to not get vaccinated because you want to see people suffer and die. Which is it?

From now on I will call you REGAN. OK???

Now, back to a fascinating book I’m reading: Margaret McMillan (2001). 1919: Six Months that Changed the World. About the peace conference following World War 1 and how it creating many problems, Middle East, and led to World War II.

“Note. For some reason for two days I couldn’t access comments on previous exchange”

I think I’ve found a possible work-around for that besides making another comment . I suspect that there is some ‘finger-printing’ going on somewhere and sometimes it gets stuck on various pages– try resizing your browser window before refreshing the site ; if that doesn’t work then perhaps swap out graphics or audio cards or add/subtract a hard drive.

Walls and walls of text! Joel, haven’t I told you to stopping writing me books? Perhaps rivaling this annoyance is you not having the decency to include index sections to help me navigate.

Anyway, where to start? Maybe this…..

NOPE, doesn’t end up in lymph nodes. mRNA is extremely fragile, breaks up rapidly in cell cytoplasm. However, the S spike protein that it codes for is projected on one of two MHC molecules on the outside of the cell, enabling the immune system to check it out and react. The result is, among other things, release of cytokines, messengers traveling blood and lymph alerting that an invader is present and battle going on.

Whether it’s mRNA are cytokines ending up in the breast, something is going there and causing that systemic reaction. That is odd because we would’ve expected such a reaction to occur more at the injection site I also noticed the folks around here are rather shy in addressing this point. So, what’s your take, Joel?

If it’s cytokines in the breast, could it be suggestive of an autoimmunity condition where they are attacking breast cells that share affinity with the spike protein? And, of course we know that autoimmunity and ongoing inflammation go hand in hand with cancer.

Lear, the distinction you made between acute and chronic information also offers little reassurance. As you conceded, the inflammation process is not well understood. There is no precise science in predicting chronic and accute inflammation.

Maybe the lumps are a one off, but what if they aren’t. If the cytokines are tagging for attack breast cells that are similar to the spike protein, then perhaps any repeat exposure to Covid-2 could cause more swellings. Maybe it won’t even have to be covid-2 but any coronas, including the common cold. Maybe overtime there won’t even need to be a provocation, just the body recognizing the breast cells as the enemy that must be destroyed.
Considering that half the world has breasts, this autoimmunity-cancerous fallout would indeed be doomsday.

Lear, you point out that studies are building that these vaccines are safe? Maybe this is an area for dispute, yet we must remember never in history have we produced a vaccine so fast and using such untested technology. This makes it all the more prudent to proceed cautiously.

Sadly, it appears that you guys are flying by the seat of your pants and praying for the best. That’s not proceeding cautiously. Vaccinating people where you don’t need to exemplifies such recklessness.

PS: I picture you as Lear and actually use the term in an endearing way. If I am hurting your feelings, I will stop.

“the distinction you made between acute and chronic information”

What? Information? Do you mean the distinction between the sticking your fingers in your ears and eyeballs only sporadically, only ‘getting it’ sometimes’, or in perpitude to not receive signal or do receive and you oscillate wildly between “I’m stupid” and “I’m ignorant but not stupid”?

“Considering that half the world has breasts, this autoimmunity-cancerous fallout would indeed be doomsday.”

Beautiful are the breast that protrude but a little. That is to say, that I’m gay and, while viable, don’t count in your book. Nonetheless, you get this video:

Oops, “strawberry fields forever” has been nuked upon copywrong grounds. Still, there is this: https://youtu.be/2fySJbcLRlo

Here is an article listing common causes of lumps in the breast. I find it interesting that it says nothing about lymph nodes. Could it be that you guys are lying through your teeth about lyphadenopathy?! It does mention this though…

Injuries and infections. A severe injury to your breast tissue or nearby nerves can create a breast lump. Doctors describe this condition as fat necrosis. A collection of infected fluid (abscess) in breast tissue also can cause a breast lump, one that’s often associated with localized breast pain and inflammation of the skin.

‘Localized breast pain and inflammation’! Is this not supporting my assessment that probably the lumps we are seeing after covid vaccination is due from damaged breast tissues or cells? Again, whether mRNA particles or the citokines that ensue from them are making into the breast, the evidence is suggesting they are attacking and damaging breast tissue. Why?! Does this not give us serious reasons for concern? Apparently not, when Orac writes…..

So basically the Moderna vaccine produced a significant incidence of axillary lymphadenopathy on the same side as vaccination in its phase 3 clinical trial, while the same adverse reaction was reported much less frequently after the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine in its phase 3 clinical trial.

You guys criticize antivaxxers for saying it’s always the vaccines? With you guys, the vaccines can never be so bad. Orac’s dismissive tone is not suggesting that mRNA technology is causing breast lumps and we should be worried, but it’s only occurring more with Moderna’s vaccine and not Pfizer’s.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/suspicious-breast-lumps/symptoms-causes/syc-20352786

“Is this not supporting my assessment that probably the lumps we are seeing after covid vaccination is due from damaged breast tissues or cells?”

No, because the lumps aren’t in the breast, but in the lymph nodes, which aren’t in the breast.

No lumps in the breast and the article doesn’t say anything about vaccines being less efficacious than originally thought.

@ Greg

First, many who received a COVID vaccine did have swelling at the sight of the injection. Second, the lymph nodes, as Orac explained, that might also become swollen are not all that far from the deltoid muscle. Third, maybe there isn’t absolute clarity when acute and chronic differ; but short duration swelling following a vaccine is certainly not a chronic inflammation. As for me putting headings, I’ll think about it; but my comment wasn’t the size of a monograph, so most people can follow my comments.

You write: “Maybe the lumps are a one off, but what if they aren’t. If the cytokines are tagging for attack breast cells that are similar to the spike protein, then perhaps any repeat exposure to Covid-2 could cause more swellings.”

Do you know anything at all about cells? There is ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE THAT THE SPIKE PROTEIN RESEMBLES BREAST CELLS. Grasping at straws are you? And, by the way, if the spike protein, which exists on ALL corona viruses, could elicit breast cell autoimmune response, then, since four corona viruses cause common colds and the vast majority of Americans have been infected by one or more, we should be seeing huge numbers of cases of autoimmune diseases following common colds.

You are really tiresome. I went through what you’ve wrote and refuted everything. Yet, you refuse to concede being wrong about even one point.

Obviously, nothing at all will stop your Gish Gallop.

AND ASSHOLD, STOP ADDRESSING ME AS LEAR! ! !

You said you would stop if I so requested, so let’s see if you can even keep your word.

@ Greg

You cite Mayo Clinic “A severe injury to your breast tissue or nearby nerves can create a breast lump.’

Do you have even the vaguest understanding of what “a severe injury” is? It could caused by an auto accident, a knife wound, not cytokines, microscopic proteins. Keep grasping at straws.

And you write: “You guys criticize antivaxxers for saying it’s always the vaccines? With you guys, the vaccines can never be so bad. ”

Yep, we never say vaccines are bad; but we do accept that they can cause minor adverse events and even in rare cases serious adverse events; but compared to the risks from the actual diseases, the benefit/cost ratio is exponential. I guess you don’t understand that, at least as far as I know, there is nothing, regardless of how good, that can’t have some rare bad effects. Do you eat hamburger? Well, some kids died from hamburgers tainted with E-coli O157 H7. People have gotten quite sick from salmonella in peanut butter, chicken, etc.
People have developed allergic reactions to things that they previously had no reaction to. The list goes on and on. However, overwhelming evidence has found NO link between vaccines and Autism Spectrum Disorders. But, let’s go along with the antivaccinationists, stop vaccinating. In the 1950s more than one million kids every year got measles, a week of misery; but 50,000 were hospitalized, up to 500 died, and up to 1,000 developed permanent disabilities, e.g., deafness. Given measles is just as contagious today and our population has doubled, we could expect 2 – 3 million cases per year, 100,000 hospitalizations, up to 1,000 deaths, and 2,000 disabilities. However, given the advent of antibiotic resistant infections, most of the hospitalized had secondary opportunistic bacterial pneumonia and, thus, we might anticipate even more deaths. How about rubella vaccine? In 1965 an epidemic of rubella resulted in almost 40,000 cases of pregnant women suffering miscarriages, stillbirths, congenital rubella syndrome (kids born with one or more: deaf, blind, seizure disorders, mental retardation) and microcephaly ( shrunken brain, died soon after birth). Again, given over doubling of population, we could anticipate up to 80.000 cases. And what if some terrorist group released smallpox at a couple of hub airports or monkey pox mutated? In an unvaccinated population, half or more would probably die horrible deaths; but smallpox vaccine is the most primitive vaccine and does come with 2 – 3 deaths per million and progressive and generalized vaccinia, horrible experiences; but we vaccinated with smallpox because, at the time around 25% would have died, 250,000 deaths compared to 2 – 3 and a handfull of progressive and generalized vaccines were a risk taking. I wonder what would happen if smallpox did break out? Would antivaccinationists refuse the vaccine? After 9/11 I was prepared to get the vaccine if given so that I could have volunteered at some hospital.

And I repeat, Do you have even the vaguest understanding of what “a severe injury” is?

Over and over in your comments you speculate, find one or two articles that you really don’t understand and/or written by the likes of Robert Kennedy Jr, who above I gave just one example is a pathological liar. I know you attack anyone who reads; but you live in a world of your own fantasies, with little to no anchor in reality. Very tiresome.

Do you have even the vaguest understanding of what “a severe injury” is? It could caused by an auto accident, a knife wound, not cytokines, microscopic proteins. Keep grasping at straws.

Lear, you are strawmanning! Lyphadenopathy does not explain the lump appearing in the breast. Injury to the breast does, and with it appearing after the vaccine.

@ Greg

“Appearing after the vaccine.” What is your evidence? Women are taught to self-examine on a regular basis; but not daily, so, just like you choose to speculate, imagine a woman gets a vaccine followed by minor lymphadenopathy, she feels it and then checks her breast. Keep in mind that for a breast tumor to be noticeable it had to take some time to grow, time beyond a short term swelling. So, she finds a lump that was there before the vaccine.

I wish Orac would chime in as he is the expert on breast cancer.

If we were to use your approach to everything, the world would basically standstill. Not just vaccines; but medicines, technology, etc because one can always speculate about potential risks. Seatbelts reduce death and serious injury by 50%; but there have been one or two cases where the belts twisted, dug into the person, and killed them. There have been cases of ruptured bladders, bruised kidneys, etc. Well, maybe the industry and government are exaggerating the lives and serious injuries reduced and hiding the extents of injuries caused by seatbelts? And on and on it goes. Without any knowledge of medicine, immunology, etc. you just continue on and on. Common sense should tell people how seatbelts work; but one can always speculate like the aforementioned.

Well, common sense should understand how vaccines work;

Let me give an analogy for vaccines, what the military call “war games” or “field training exercises.” These are created to be as close as possible to actual warfare without people getting seriously injured or killed. Without them, many more soldiers would be seriously injured or killed when in a real war zone, totally unprepared. Doing calisthenics, hand-to-hand training, and marksmanship doesn’t come close to real life situations.

So, what do vaccines do? They create “war games”/”field training exercises” for our immune systems. When a new microbe enters our bodies our first line of defense is the innate immune system. Sometimes it can stop an invasion; but usually not; but it can slightly slow it up and it sends signals to our adaptive immune system, B-cells that create antibodies and t-cells rev up; but it takes time for the adaptive immune system to be alerted, activated, and produce sufficient soldiers to deal with the new invader, usually around 10 days. In some cases, this is enough to either stop the invader in its tracks or weaken it sufficiently to reduce damage; but in some cases, the invader so overwhelms our bodies that it is too late, either we die or suffer serious disabilities. However, even in the best of cases, e.g., measles,, kids can suffer quite a bit for a week and even in the 1950s over one million cases per year, 50,000 hospitalizations, up to 500 deaths, and up to 1,000 permanently damaged. Extrapolate to our much larger population and more than double the aforementioned. However, with the advent of antibiotic resistant infections, the death and disability numbers would probably be even higher. Thanks to the vaccine we had literally no homegrown cases for many years until antivaccinationists like you popped up.

So, what does a vaccine do? Simply presents a killed microbe or severely weakened one or key recognizable part of microbe that can alert the innate immune system which in turn alerts the adaptive immune system. The adaptive immune system includes memory cells that remain and that don’t need to be alerted, etc.; but even a slight invasion by the vaccine-presented microbe results in a rapid reaction and even higher levels of antibodies, etc. so that many times we don’t even know we have been invaded; but, sometimes we still suffer mildly from something that could have been more severe. And, as with the best trained armies in the world, sometime just not enough.

And, for instance, adjuvants such as aluminum, as I’ve written several times, are ubiquitous in the environment. In fact, a baby getting formula receives about 40 mg of aluminum, vaccines have around 1/2 mg and aluminum has been used and research for about 100 years, I repeat 100 years. And, again, no denial that rare serious adverse events can occur following vaccinations; but 1,000s of research projects have found them to be very safe and, as I’ve written numerous times, the benefit vs risk is exponential.

Greg, lumps are not appearing in the breast. So your agrument FAILS.

Greg, lumps are not appearing in the breast. So your agrument FAILS.

Kevin, indeed the reports are suggesting women are noticing lumps in their breasts as well as in their armpits. Read again this post and you find the CNN report had Dr Quasha noticing a lump IN her breast.

If the lumps are appearing in the breasts where there are just a few lymph nodes, then the condition would be more suggestive of autoimmunity brought on by citokines or — yikes!– maurading mRNA particles. How are we so sure that mRNA vaccination doesn’t amount to attacking covid with an uzi and with bullets spraying everywhere?

It’s also interesting that men are not noticing lumps in their armpits. Yes, women are more likely to check their breasts area, but surely by chance some men should have also found swollen armpit lymph nodes. This leads me to think it may indeed be largely a breast problem.

So Greg, if women are getting the vaccine and it’s causing lumps to appear several weeks BEFORE they got the shot, how far back in time is the vaccine causing breast lumps? Is my mom’s breast cancer that was diagnosed 15 years ago caused by the shot she got last week?

Lumps that are appearing AFTER the shot are appearing in the armpit, not in the breast.

Oh, and yeah, there are men who are experiencing lymphadenopathy after vaccination. Including myself.

One last time, for everyone not named Greg:
The order of events was:
Lump discovered.
Person was vaccinated.
During post-vaccine mammography, the lymph nodes were found to be inflamed.

@W. Kevin Vicklund – nice avatar!

If the lumps are appearing in the breasts where there are just a few lymph nodes, then the condition would be more suggestive of autoimmunity brought on by citokines or — yikes!– maurading mRNA particles.

If not just ruling out cancer, maybe a biopsy of one of these lumps would be useful in another way. Would the result support the assumption that the vaccine is ‘working’ and it’s just immune cell massing for the battle, or would it reveal something far more ‘problematic’?

Greg, you’re a moron.
It’s been repeated ad nauseam that the lumps in question are not in breasts but in the armpits. It’s not far away, admittedly, but your nose is not your eye although they’re even closer.

@ Greg

You write: “Walls and walls of text! Joel, haven’t I told you to stopping writing me books?”

Yikes! I go point by point through your claims; but, yep, I don’t write short answers; but explain and back with science. Yet, even my longest comment is no more than the equivalent of a couple/three pages. Just added proof of your short attention span, which, means you either are incapable of or just don’t wish to devote any time and effort into understanding something. Typical of antivaccinationists/antiscience types, instead of learning the basics of a subject, finding confirmatory articles, regardless of their credibility and citing them or, as you often do, just speculating, e.g., what if? Well, what if a huge asteroid hits Earth in the next few years? Maybe, we should stop wasting time and money on research, developing technology, and just party. After all, there is always a remote possibility all this will end.

You, Christine Kincaid, Natalie White, etc. remind me of mosquitos (ones not carrying deadly microbes) that just buzz around. Annoying. Unfortunately, some mosquitos do carry deadly microbes, just as antivaccinationists, if they influence enough people, could put both their selves, their children, and many others at risk.

By the way, there is more and more evidence that the first COVID vaccines have protected people. I don’t know your age or if you have any family/loved ones who may be at risk; but wonder how you would feel if one of them was infected with COVID and either developed long COVID or even died?

As I wrote above, at 75 I am now donating plasma to help hospitalized COVID patients. So, getting the vaccine has allowed me to help others. I asked earlier if you have ever donated blood? I am approaching 100 times and feel guilty haven’t given more.

“I asked earlier if you have ever donated blood?”

Not a good idea in his case.

The crazy might be transmissible.

@ Dangerous Bacon

Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathy??? Greg? Mad Cow’s Disease?

On 3 March I posted this question.

“Can someone explain to me why all of these science papers that mistakenly used a skin cell cancer to study breast cancer have not all been retracted (some papers are still using this, misidentified MDA-MB-435) in papers in 2020. A total of 890 peer review published science papers used the wrong cancer cells.”

to which Orac replied

“This has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Do not threadjack. I hate threadjackers.”

the article mentioned “breast cancer” over 7 times.

I don’t understand how the reference to a paper on the use of the wrong cancer cell lines and over 800 papers that used the wrong cell lines is not relevant to the topic of breast cancer or how it was “threadjacking”. As a breast cancer survivor I am offended, no make that angry, that you take my concerns so lightly.

https://www.nature.com/articles/npjbcancer20152

ignoring the comments, the question still stands, why haven’t these false papers been retracted?

the article mentioned “breast cancer” over 7 times.

What’s the title of the post, again?

And it galls me when someone considers an evidence-based process which can eventually find and correct its mistakes to be “bad”, but I will continue to bite my tongue.

1) The paper you cite is over 5 years out of date. It was published in 2015, not 2020 as your statement would lead someone to believe. Retractions may have been issued in that time, and a quick search indicates that breast cancer research using that cell line has stopped.

2) The cell line used turned out to be from a melanoma, and thus the papers are still valid in that context. It is possible that some papers are deserving of retraction, but by and large, the data is still of use to research into skin cancer, and may very well provide some promising areas of exploration.

3) This blog entry is only tangentially related to breast cancer. Your question is most assuredly a threadjack, so I will not address it further.

As to “Why not just biopsy…” only someone completely ignorant of how medicine is practiced could conceive, let alone suggest, such a course. Want to line up to be the first one we biopsy? No? Any idea what goes into it? How much it costs? What the possible complications are? What effect it has on the patient, long term?

As to “Why not just biopsy…” only someone completely ignorant of how medicine is practiced could conceive, let alone suggest, such a course

Med, I wasn’t suggesting that. I was just explaining that in the event one of these ‘inflammatory’ swellings were to be mistakenly biopsied for cancer, the result might be interesting. I also find your defensiveness quite telling, and I am now thinking that the suggestion to delay scans might not be entirely due to reducing anxiety.

Greg, apart from you being a moron, let’s assume that a physician thought that those swollen lymph nodes would warrant a biopsy for cancer.

The finding would be utterly uninteresting – either cancer – after all, it was expected, nor not cancer, which was hoped for. Or you expect some Schrödinger cancer which both is and isn’t cancer?

But… why do I bother. You’re incomprehensible and a moron on top of that.

Why are you people supporting Rockefeller medicine? Don’t you know that they are Satanists?

I came to laugh at the corny costumes but ended up staying over all the free, illicit sex and their keen appreciation of geometry.

One good thing about Satanists. They tend to keep to themselves and avoid inflicting their beliefs on others. I’ve never had a knock at the door followed by an invitation to allow Lucifer into my life.

Now I understand why, when I got a mammogram earlier this month, they explicitly asked if I’d had the vaccine, the dates I’d had it, and which arm. Thanks for the science behind it!

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