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Antivaccine nonsense Bad science Medicine Skepticism/critical thinking

Antivaxxers don’t want COVID-19 vaccines to “impurify” their “purity of essence”

Antivaxxers frequently make the false claim that mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines “permanently alter your DNA.” These claims are really a concern about “impurifying” their “purity of essence.”

One of my favorite movies of all time is the Stanley Kubrick film Dr. Stangelove or: How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Bomb. It is one of the greatest comedies of all time and arguably the greatest black comedy of all time. In brief, its plot concerns an unhinged purity-obsessed Air Force general named Gen. Jack D. Ripper (Kubrick obviously wasn’t aiming for subtlety), who manages to subvert chain of command and protocol and order the B-52 bomber wing under his command to launch a nuclear first strike against the Soviet Union. The film then follows the increasingly desperate (and darkly comical) efforts of the President, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and an RAF exchange officer under Gen. Ripper’s command to stop nuclear Armageddon, while showing the parallel efforts of the crew of one B-52 bomber to get through to its target, with Peter Sellers playing three roles (the President, the RAF officer, and Dr. Strangelove, the mysterious ex-Nazi scientist/advisor who personified the dark id behind the Cold War). I realize that it might be difficult for those too young to remember the Cold War, nuclear fallout shelters, and air raid drills to fully comprehend the terror that Kubrick was playing with in this film, but the film nonetheless holds up as an artifact of a period from decades during which mutually assured destruction was a fact of life and that destruction could have come about due to accident or something like what was portrayed in this film.

The reason I mention Dr. Strangelove in the context of a post about COVID-19 deniers and antivaxxers is because of the belief system of the main antagonist of the film, General Jack D. Ripper, whom I’ve mentioned before on this blog at least a couple of times (particularly in the context of anti-GMO activists basically voicing the same fear of GMOs of sapping and impurifying our precious bodily fluids). In brief, the reason Ripper launched his first strike was so as not to permit, as he put it, “Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, Communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids” (around 1:10):

His discussion with his RAF office Mandrake then amusingly goes into his obsession with his “purity of essence” and Ripper’s determination to deny women his “essence” during “the act of love”, as he puts it. Unsurprisingly (for the time), Gen. Ripper believed that the fluoridation of water was the mechanism by which Communists were accomplishing this nefarious aim to “impurify” Americans’ “precious bodily fluids”, as he explains while US troops are attacking his base as part of the government’s effort to try to stop the first strike:

Why would I discuss this belief system in the context of COVID-19 and antivaxxers? Simple. It’s because Gen. Ripper’s fear of “contamination” (or, as he puts it, “impurification”) of his “precious bodily fluids,” his obsession with “purity of essence” (the very term playing a large role in the plot), and his conspiracy theory that “they” are out to contaminate that purity in order to conquer you remind me very much of how antivaxxers and COVID-19 deniers are discussing the pandemic and, of course, COVID-19 vaccines. I haven’t written about the topic of “toxins” and “detox” in the context of vaccines in a while, but given the advent of COVID-19 vaccines based on mRNA or adenoviral vectors, it felt like time to revisit this topic, specifically how belief in “purity of essence” and “contamination” of that essence, à la Gen. Ripper, drives antivaccine beliefs and rhetoric. That’s because, as I’ve discussed before, “contamination” and “detoxification” lie at the heart of unscientific alternative medicine beliefs that undergird much of antivaccine rhetoric. I’ll start with antivaccine rhetoric I used to encounter before the pandemic, and finish with the now oft-repeated lie that COVID-19 vaccines somehow “alter your DNA” (i.e., contaminate your purity of essence.)

The “occult archetype called vaccination”

The first time I really started thinking about this connection was nearly four years ago. At the time, I was becoming convinced that it is a fear of bodily “contamination” that harks back to ideas found in many religions that underlies a lot of antivaccine belief. Think about it. Where does the fear of “toxins” in vaccines come from? Vaccines are portrayed as “foreign”, as something “unnatural” that is “injected right into the bloodstream”. (Never mind that vaccines are not injected directly into the bloodstream.) To the antivaxxer, there is no difference between an intramuscular and an intravenous injection because to them both are equally “contaminating”. Both equally sap and impurify your precious bodily fluids. It’s also not a coincidence that many of the treatments for “vaccine-induced autism” or any other condition falsely attributed to vaccines are represented as “detoxification.” They are basically purges, to purge the “evil humors” that antivaxers believe vaccines to be packed full of. It’s not for nothing that I’ve not infrequently described alternative medicine “detoxification” as being akin to ritual purification of the sort found in many different religions. Think of chelation therapy and all the “detoxification” treatments used by autism quacks as basically an effort to restore the purity of the child’s precious bodily fluids. Moreover, given that these ideas of “contamination” of one’s “purity” are based in religion, it’s not surprising that antivaxxers would use highly religious imagery and language to describe vaccination.

It’s also not surprising that they would also engage in projection. One example that I still remember years later is an article by Jon Rappaport entitled “The Occult Archetype Called Vaccination“. In it, Rappaport took a germ of a semireasonable cultural/anthropological discussion of vaccination as a “rite of passage through danger, into the tribe and village, conferring a moral righteousness, presided over by a shaman” and goes straight off the deep end with it:

Some ancient rituals presented dangers. The child, on his way to becoming a man, would be sent out to live alone in the forest for a brief period and survive. Vaccination symbolizes this in a passive way: the injection of disease-viruses which might be harmful are transmuted into protective spirits in the body. The injection of toxic chemicals is a passageway into immunity. If a child is damaged in the process, the parents and the tribe consider it a tragic but acceptable risk, because on the whole the tribe and the village are protected against the evil spirits (viruses).

Notice the magical thinking Rappaport ascribes here. It’s pure mysticism and superstition that no one advocating vaccination actually believes. Does any vaccine advocate claim that vaccines are the injection of “disease matter” that is somehow magically transmuted into “protective spirits”? Or that vaccines are “toxic chemicals” injected as a “passageway to immunity”? It could work as a metaphor, of course, but that metaphor would, in a reasonable usage, be layered over the scientific and public health benefits of vaccination; moreover, the risks of vaccination are nowhere near as high as Rappaport implies. Also, Rappaport takes it far beyond that into the territory of fear and loathing, along with the rather obvious attempt to imply that vaccination is only about religious/mystical beliefs and ancient archetypes, rather than having just an element of tapping into those archetypes of a rite of passage involving a shaman.

Vaccines versus “purity of essence”

Rappaport’s rhetoric about vaccines in 2017 might come across as extreme, but it was mild compared to that of Mike Adams. I was reminded of this when I saw a recent post over at his Natural News website entitled ‘mRNA vaccines may cause your body to churn out PRIONS that “eat your brain” like Mad Cow Disease‘. Since I’ve already discussed in depth how utterly without a scientific basis the antivax claim that the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna mRNA vaccines will lead to prion diseases like Mad Cow Disease was, I won’t dwell on that part, other than to observe that Adams is rather behind the antivax times. (Really, that Classen article was published nearly two months ago.) Instead, I’ll point out how Adams uses rhetoric that COVID-19 vaccines will turn you into a “vaccine zombie.”

This is, of course, not a new claim. The video Adams uses is a decade old at least:

Of course, the entire myth of the “zombie” is all about decomposition, putrefaction, and contamination with contagion, such that a zombie bite turns the person bitten into a zombie too. This sort of imagery is very intentional.

Four years ago, during a rant about Facebook’s efforts to slow the spread of antivaccine disinformation, Adams was likening vaccination to both contamination and violation of a most horrific kind:

Mark Zuckerberg isn’t accused of raping little children with his biology, but he controls the social media network that openly espouses the medical violation of childrens’ bodies with toxic injections — a form of “medical rape” that obscenely violates the American Medical Association’s medical ethics when mandated by coercive government (as has already happened in California with SB 277).

Further adding to the horrifying truth of what Zuckerberg and Facebook are really up to, many vaccines given to children in America today are made from the ground-up, homogenized, disease-inoculated organs of aborted black babies. These “human embryonic lung cell cultures” are openly listed as chicken pox vaccine ingredients by the CDC and vaccine manufacturers, all of whom also openly admit that vaccines are made from diseased animal organs such as African Green Monkey kidney cells. (MMR vaccines are also made from the tissue of aborted human babies.)

Regular readers will recognize the usual antivaccine claims, just with the hyperbole and ridiculousness dialed up to 11 and beyond. I’ve mentioned many times how antivaxxers like to make the false claim that vaccines are made from the “tissue of aborted babies,” ignoring the fact that cells isolated from a fetus in the 1960s and maintained in culture in dishes over 50 years are not the same thing as “tissue from aborted human babies”. (One also wonders where he got the idea that the original fetuses were Black, much less that their organs had been “inoculated with disease”.)

This is, of course, Mike Adams. We therefore expect that his writings will be full of distortions, misinformation, disinformation, lies, and conspiracy theories. That’s who he is. My point is not to refute individually each bizarre claim made by Adams in an article from 2017, given that I’ve refuted such claims individually more times than I can remember over the years, but rather to look at the language that he uses. Vaccines are portrayed as “dirty” and “contaminated”, “toxic injections” so bad that they are akin to “medical rape” (unfortunately another favorite metaphor antivaxxers like to use to describe vaccination and vaccine mandates).

Again, this is all religious, not scientific, imagery, and Adams goes even beyond stoking the fear of contamination. For example:

Today, Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook demand the ritualistic sacrifice of children to the “vaccine gods” as a way to appease their globalist controllers. Just like in the era of the Maya, children are especially prized for their innocence which is violated by puncturing the skin and injecting the child with foreign DNA extracted from other children sacrificed at abortion centers.

Quite literally, the dead children are liquefied and “fed” to other children, many of whom are maimed or killed by the toxic intervention (yes, this is how vaccines are manufactured). This is all carried out in the name of “science,” just as the Maya high priests carried out their sacrifices in the name of “cosmic powers.”

Leading to:

In summary, Mark Zuckerberg is a child-sacrificing, globalist ascension seeker whose rise to power must be accompanied by prescribing the mass “medical raping,” genetic violation and ritualistic deaths of children. In order to achieve that, Facebook must block websites that openly discuss factual vaccine ingredients, their horrifying aborted human baby origins and why they are added to vaccines in the first place (especially when many ingredients have nothing whatsoever to do with viral strains).

Again, notice the language, more than the actual substance (such as it is) of Adams’ claims. “Genetic violation.” “Medical raping.” The “horrifying aborted baby origins” of vaccines. It’s all about stirring revulsion and fear of contamination. It’s easy to laugh at the sheer ridiculous hyperbole of it all, but that would be a mistake, except perhaps to laugh only briefly. We have to take this sort of imagery seriously, because it taps into deep fears in human beings and it co-opts ancient language used by religions. The reason Gen. Ripper’s rants about Communists “sapping and impurifying our precious bodily fluids” with fluoridation were funny was because they were over the top, but also because they tapped into religious and superstitious beliefs about contamination and contagion that cultures have instilled in us for millennia.

That’s why I’d suggest that, if you want to understand the power of the antivaccine trope that portrays vaccines as “disease matter” or “injecting disease” (a metaphor that Bill Maher himself once used), the “toxins gambit” that describes vaccines as riddled with scary-sounding chemicals like formaldehyde, or the “fetal parts” gambit that tries to draw a link between the fetal cell lines used to grow virus stocks to make some vaccines to the grinding up of dead babies to use to make vaccines, think of in terms of Gen. Ripper. These are tropes designed to stoke fear of “contamination” of one’s precious bodily fluids at the very minimum. Some antivaccine tropes even suggest that vaccines will change your very essence, as you will see. Holy vaccine zombie, Batman!

The “occult archetype called vaccination”

The first time I really started thinking about this connection was nearly four years ago. At the time, I was becoming convinced that it is a fear of bodily “contamination” that harks back to ideas found in many religions that underlies a lot of antivaccine belief. Think about it. Where does the fear of “toxins” in vaccines come from? Vaccines are portrayed as “foreign”, as something “unnatural” that is “injected right into the bloodstream”. (Never mind that vaccines are not injected directly into the bloodstream.) To the antivaxxer, there is no difference between an intramuscular and an intravenous injection because to them both are equally “contaminating”. Both equally sap and impurify your precious bodily fluids. It’s also not a coincidence that many of the treatments for “vaccine-induced autism” or any other condition falsely attributed to vaccines are represented as “detoxification.” They are basically purges, to purge the “evil humors” that antivaxers believe vaccines to be packed full of. It’s not for nothing that I’ve not infrequently described alternative medicine “detoxification” as being akin to ritual purification of the sort found in many different religions. Think of chelation therapy and all the “detoxification” treatments used by autism quacks as basically an effort to restore the purity of the child’s precious bodily fluids. Moreover, given that these ideas of “contamination” of one’s “purity” are based in religion, it’s not surprising that antivaxxers would use highly religious imagery and language to describe vaccination.

It’s also not surprising that they would also engage in projection. One example that I still remember years later is an article by Jon Rappaport entitled “The Occult Archetype Called Vaccination“. In it, Rappaport took a germ of a semireasonable cultural/anthropological discussion of vaccination as a “rite of passage through danger, into the tribe and village, conferring a moral righteousness, presided over by a shaman” and goes straight off the deep end with it:

Some ancient rituals presented dangers. The child, on his way to becoming a man, would be sent out to live alone in the forest for a brief period and survive. Vaccination symbolizes this in a passive way: the injection of disease-viruses which might be harmful are transmuted into protective spirits in the body. The injection of toxic chemicals is a passageway into immunity. If a child is damaged in the process, the parents and the tribe consider it a tragic but acceptable risk, because on the whole the tribe and the village are protected against the evil spirits (viruses).

Notice the magical thinking Rappaport ascribes here. It’s pure mysticism and superstition that no one advocating vaccination actually believes. Does any vaccine advocate claim that vaccines are the injection of “disease matter” that is somehow magically transmuted into “protective spirits”? Or that vaccines are “toxic chemicals” injected as a “passageway to immunity”? It could work as a metaphor, of course, but that metaphor would, in a reasonable usage, be layered over the scientific and public health benefits of vaccination; moreover, the risks of vaccination are nowhere near as high as Rappaport implies. Also, Rappaport takes it far beyond that into the territory of fear and loathing, along with the rather obvious attempt to imply that vaccination is only about religious/mystical beliefs and ancient archetypes, rather than having just an element of tapping into those archetypes of a rite of passage involving a shaman.

Vaccines versus “purity of essence”

Rappaport’s rhetoric about vaccines in 2017 might come across as extreme, but it was mild compared to that of Mike Adams. I was reminded of this when I saw a recent post over at his Natural News website entitled ‘mRNA vaccines may cause your body to churn out PRIONS that “eat your brain” like Mad Cow Disease‘. Since I’ve already discussed in depth how utterly without a scientific basis the antivax claim that the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna mRNA vaccines will lead to prion diseases like Mad Cow Disease was, I won’t dwell on that part, other than to observe that Adams is rather behind the antivax times. (Really, that Classen article was published nearly two months ago.) Instead, I’ll point out how Adams uses rhetoric that COVID-19 vaccines will turn you into a “vaccine zombie”. This is, of course, not a new claim. The video Adams uses is a decade old at least:https://www.brighteon.com/embed/e6c842d1-0388-4dc0-8fd9-c84f23f735c2

Of course, the entire myth of the “zombie” is all about decomposition, putrefaction, and contamination with contagion, such that a zombie bite turns the person bitten into a zombie too. This sort of imagery is very intentional.

Four years ago, during a rant about Facebook’s efforts to slow the spread of antivaccine disinformation, Adams was likening vaccination to both contamination and violation of a most horrific kind:

Mark Zuckerberg isn’t accused of raping little children with his biology, but he controls the social media network that openly espouses the medical violation of childrens’ bodies with toxic injections — a form of “medical rape” that obscenely violates the American Medical Association’s medical ethics when mandated by coercive government (as has already happened in California with SB 277).

Further adding to the horrifying truth of what Zuckerberg and Facebook are really up to, many vaccines given to children in America today are made from the ground-up, homogenized, disease-inoculated organs of aborted black babies. These “human embryonic lung cell cultures” are openly listed as chicken pox vaccine ingredients by the CDC and vaccine manufacturers, all of whom also openly admit that vaccines are made from diseased animal organs such as African Green Monkey kidney cells. (MMR vaccines are also made from the tissue of aborted human babies.)

Regular readers will recognize the usual antivaccine claims, just with the hyperbole and ridiculousness dialed up to 11 and beyond. I’ve mentioned many times how antivaxxers like to make the false claim that vaccines are made from the “tissue of aborted babies,” ignoring the fact that cells isolated from a fetus in the 1960s and maintained in culture in dishes over 50 years are not the same thing as “tissue from aborted human babies”. (One also wonders where he got the idea that the original fetuses were Black, much less that their organs had been “inoculated with disease”.)

This is, of course, Mike Adams. We therefore expect that his writings will be full of distortions, misinformation, disinformation, lies, and conspiracy theories. That’s who he is. My point is not to refute individually each bizarre claim made by Adams in an article from 2017, given that I’ve refuted such claims individually more times than I can remember over the years, but rather to look at the language that he uses. Vaccines are portrayed as “dirty” and “contaminated”, “toxic injections” so bad that they are akin to “medical rape” (unfortunately another favorite metaphor antivaxxers like to use to describe vaccination and vaccine mandates).

Again, this is all religious, not scientific, imagery, and Adams goes even beyond stoking the fear of contamination. For example:

Today, Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook demand the ritualistic sacrifice of children to the “vaccine gods” as a way to appease their globalist controllers. Just like in the era of the Maya, children are especially prized for their innocence which is violated by puncturing the skin and injecting the child with foreign DNA extracted from other children sacrificed at abortion centers.

Quite literally, the dead children are liquefied and “fed” to other children, many of whom are maimed or killed by the toxic intervention (yes, this is how vaccines are manufactured). This is all carried out in the name of “science,” just as the Maya high priests carried out their sacrifices in the name of “cosmic powers.”

Leading to:

In summary, Mark Zuckerberg is a child-sacrificing, globalist ascension seeker whose rise to power must be accompanied by prescribing the mass “medical raping,” genetic violation and ritualistic deaths of children. In order to achieve that, Facebook must block websites that openly discuss factual vaccine ingredients, their horrifying aborted human baby origins and why they are added to vaccines in the first place (especially when many ingredients have nothing whatsoever to do with viral strains).

Again, notice the language, more than the actual substance (such as it is) of Adams’ claims. “Genetic violation.” “Medical raping.” The “horrifying aborted baby origins” of vaccines. It’s all about stirring revulsion and fear of contamination. It’s easy to laugh at the sheer ridiculous hyperbole of it all, but that would be a mistake, except perhaps to laugh only briefly. We have to take this sort of imagery seriously, because it taps into deep fears in human beings and it co-opts ancient language used by religions. The reason Gen. Ripper’s rants about Communists “sapping and impurifying our precious bodily fluids” with fluoridation were funny was because they were over the top, but also because they tapped into religious and superstitious beliefs about contamination and contagion that cultures have instilled in us for millennia.

That’s why I’d suggest that, if you want to understand the power of the antivaccine trope that portrays vaccines as “disease matter” or “injecting disease” (a metaphor that Bill Maher himself once used), the “toxins gambit” that describes vaccines as riddled with scary-sounding chemicals like formaldehyde, or the “fetal parts” gambit that tries to draw a link between the fetal cell lines used to grow virus stocks to make some vaccines to the grinding up of dead babies to use to make vaccines, think of in terms of Gen. Ripper. These are tropes designed to stoke fear of “contamination” of one’s precious bodily fluids at the very minimum. Some antivaccine tropes even suggest that vaccines will change your very essence, as you will see. Holy vaccine zombie, Batman!

Quoth RFK Jr.: COVID-19 vaccines will corrupt your very DNA!

I’ve already discussed on at least two occasions here how, contrary to what antivaxxers claim, mRNA vaccines do not alter your DNA, nor are they “gene therapy“, the implication behind this antivax claim, again, being that somehow these vaccines permanently alter your DNA. Of course, mRNA vaccines (and also DNA vaccines based on adenoviral vectors, like the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine) were explicitly designed from the beginning not to integrate into host DNA or otherwise alter that DNA. The mRNA in the vaccines never makes it into the nucleus and is never converted to DNA, both of which it would have to do in order to permanently integrate into one’s DNA. There is no plausible biological mechanism how mRNA from these vaccines could do that, as anyone who’s taken basic courses in molecular biology would know, which is why those of us who’ve done molecular biology since the 1990s laugh at these claims, which proliferate across social media:

Of course, Bill Gates has to figure in there somewhere.

Antivaxxers, though, are nothing if not inventive. Clearly the more “biologically savvy” among them understood that it was a pretty damning observation that there is no biological mechanism by which mRNA could possibly “permanently alter” your DNA, much less do so in a manner that would affect more than a very small number of cells. So a mechanism had to be invented. Unfortunately, as I briefly alluded to last week, there is a recent (and awful) study that was posted to a preprint server that antivaxxers have latched onto in order to say, “See! I told you! It is possible for mRNA vaccines to alter your DNA permanently!” It doesn’t, but explaining why takes some effort. I briefly did so last week. I will elaborate a bit more this week.

Let’s first look at how antivax activist Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. describes the study in an article entitled “Could mRNA Vaccines Permanently Alter DNA? Recent Science Suggests They Might“. It’s subtitled “Research on SARS-CoV-2 RNA by scientists at Harvard and MIT has implications for how mRNA vaccines could permanently alter genomic DNA, according to Doug Corrigan, Ph.D., a biochemist-molecular biologist who says more research is needed.” Actually, no, they can’t, and, no, there isn’t, at least not this specific line of research. Let’s see what RFK Jr. says, first, and I’ll quote liberally:

Under ordinary circumstances, the body makes (“transcribes”) mRNA from the DNA in a cell’s nucleus. The mRNA then travels out of the nucleus into the cytoplasm, where it provides instructions about which proteins to make.

By comparison, mRNA vaccines send their chemically synthesized mRNA payload (bundled with spike protein-manufacturing instructions) directly into the cytoplasm.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and most mRNA vaccine scientists, the buck then stops there — mRNA vaccines “do not affect or interact with our DNA in any way,” the CDC says. The CDC asserts first, that the mRNA cannot enter the cell’s nucleus (where DNA resides), and second, that the cell — Mission-Impossible-style — “gets rid of the mRNA soon after it is finished using the instructions.”

A December preprint about SARS-CoV-2, by scientists at Harvard and Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), produced findings about wild coronavirus that raise questions about how viral RNA operates.

The scientists conducted the analysis because they were “puzzled by the fact that there is a respectable number of people who are testing positive for COVID-19 by PCR long after the infection was gone.”

Their key findings were as follows: SARS-CoV-2 RNAs “can be reverse transcribed in human cells,” “these DNA sequences can be integrated into the cell genome and subsequently be transcribed” (a phenomenon called “retro-integration”) — and there are viable cellular pathways to explain how this happens.

Again, no. The study did not show this. Notice the language, though. Notice how this finding is portrayed as “shattering” dogma. Doug Corrigan (who featured in last week’s discussion) even explicitly says:

According to Ph.D. biochemist and molecular biologist Dr. Doug Corrigan, these important findings (which run contrary to “current biological dogma”) belong to the category of “Things We Were Absolutely and Unequivocally Certain Couldn’t Happen Which Actually Happened.”

See! See! You conventional molecular biologists mocked us! But I’ll show you! (This is what I like to refer to as the fallacy of future vindication.) Basically, this “thing” that “actually happened” is that the RNA from SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, can be reverse transcribed into DNA, which then somehow integrate into the genome of human cells. What does this mean? Normally, DNA is “transcribed” into RNA by special enzymes that “read” the DNA sequence and create what’s called its reverse complement. You don’t need to understand exactly what that means, other than that it means that the information in the DNA has been transcribed into RNA, where it can then be translated in a protein complex called a ribosome into protein. Under normal circumstances, the reverse does not happen in mammalian cells. However, certain RNA viruses called retroviruses (like HIV) can “reverse transcribe” RNA into DNA. The enzyme necessary to do this, reverse transcriptase, is normally not found in mammalian cells; so the virus has to provide it. And, yes, as RFK Jr. and Corrigan note, retroviruses are common, with many sequences in the genome having derived from retroviruses that reverse transcribed part of their sequence into DNA, which then integrated into the genome. These sequences are called endogenous retroviruses (ERVs), which are inherited genetic elements closely resembling the DNA sequences formed following exogenous retrovirus infection. Sequences derived from ERVs make up at 8% to 10% of the human and mouse genomes and range from ancient sequences that predate mammalian divergence to elements that are currently still active.

Knowing this, of course, I can’t help but retort that, if something truly belongs to the category of “Things We Were Absolutely and Unequivocally Certain Couldn’t Happen Which Actually Happened,” then to prove the latter part you’d better have some seriously bulletproof evidence that this thing actually did happen. Basically, this is the Carl Sagan standard: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to back them up. He might have used it in the context of the paranormal, but it just as well applies to claims that go against everything we know about molecular biology. Make no mistake, the central claim of this preprint, namely that the RNA from SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, is somehow reverse transcribed into DNA and then finds its way into the nucleus to integrate with genomic DNA, is a truly extraordinary claim given that coronaviruses are not retroviruses like HIV and that endogenous human reverse transcription is very rare and limited, as described in depth here. Basically, only certain genetic elements in the genome can use reverse transcription to copy themselves elsewhere. It’s not as though a random coronavirus can hijack this mechanism for itself and plop its sequences somewhere in the human genome. To demonstrate that would require extraordinary evidence, particularly given that coronaviruses kill the cells they infect as they replicate.

Let’s just say that this preprint (still a preprint four months after having been published) doesn’t even come close to extraordinary evidence. Heck, it’s not even good ordinary evidence. Again, if you want the details, I refer you to this fine explanation by Ed Nirenberg. For one thing, the assumption that “persistently positive PCR” for COVID-19 must mean reverse transcription of the virus and integration is a leap. There are other mechanisms, such as the maintenance of a viral reservoir within an immunologically privileged site or immunological suppression. These are all mechanisms that have been observed in other viruses. As for the results themselves, Nirenberg makes a compelling case that the findings could well be due to an artifact of the methods used to look for viral sequences. I’ll also point out again now Nirenberg’s correct observations, as I did then, that, even if the authors had observed actual reverse transcription and integration into the genome, it would mean exactly nothing for RNA vaccines because:

  • The sequence would behave like a processed pseudogene, lacking any ability to recruit host transcription machinery and would sit in the genome, quiescent.
  • If the sequence somehow inserted downstream of a promoter sequence that could recruit transcription machinery, the cell would express spike protein, be recognized by the immune system, and then be killed.
  • If the sequence inserted itself into the middle of gene (specifically in the middle of an exon), you would get a mutant protein that had sequences from SARS-CoV-2 that would be processed by antigen-presenting machinery and trigger a T cell response that killed the cell.

None of this stops antivaxxers from latching onto this study as “proof” that mRNA vaccines really can “permanently alter” your DNA and then to go on to engage in all sorts of predictions based on speculation:

More thoughtful readers agreed with Corrigan that the paper raises important questions. For example, one reader stated that confirmatory evidence is lacking “to show that the spike protein only is expressed for a short amount of time (say 1-3 days) after vaccination,” adding, “We think that this is the case, but there is no evidence for that.”

In fact, just how long the vaccines’ synthetic mRNA — and thus the instructions for cells to keep manufacturing spike protein — persist inside the cells is an open question.

Ordinarily, RNA is a “notoriously fragile” and unstable molecule. According to scientists, “this fragility is true of the mRNA of any living thing, whether it belongs to a plant, bacteria, virus or human.”

But the synthetic mRNA in the COVID vaccines is a different story. In fact, the step that ultimately allowed scientists and vaccine manufacturers to resolve their decades-long mRNA vaccine impasse was when they figured out how to chemically modify mRNA to increase its stability and longevity — in other words, produce RNA “that hangs around in the cell much longer than viral RNA, or even RNA that our cell normally produces for normal protein production.”

This is a major exaggeration. While it is true that the mRNA used in the COVID-19 vaccines has been modified to have a longer half-life in the cells, it’s not as though it’s been made indestructible, as RFK Jr. and Corrigan seem to be implying. At best, the mRNA from these vaccines will not result in production of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein by the cells containing the vaccine RNA for more than 10-14 days. That’s longer than unmodified RNA, but not so long as to result in all the dire consequences speculated by antivaxxers. Again, it’s as though antivaxxers think that there aren’t extensive cell culture studies to estimate the half-life of the mRNAs made by these vaccines and correlative studies during the early stage clinical trials or that we don’t have years of data on how long modified RNAs hang around the cell.

Why, though? Why would scientists “ignore” this study and the warnings of antivaxxers? According to RFK Jr., it’s the money, of course, as he accuses scientists of the ‘the prospect of retro-integration of foreign DNA as a “conspiracy theory,’” No, scientists aren’t dismissing it as a conspiracy theory. They’re dismissing it as an incredibly unlikely phenomenon based on the totality of our knowledge of molecular biology, and this study is not the “extraordinary evidence” that would be required to make a convincing case for the extraordinary claim that our knowledge of molecular biology is so incorrect.

However, it’s needed to feed the contamination narrative. In fact, you’ll notice that RFK Jr. goes beyond just contamination, as RFK Jr. refers to “possibly multigenerational” risks. Yes, the genetic alteration claimed by antivaxxers is such that they further claim that they could be passed on to children, a claim that I’ve been seeing popping up more and more, even though the mRNA from COVID-19 vaccines does not enter germline cells that produce sperm in men and eggs in women, thus making it impossible for mRNA vaccines to be able to produce genetic alterations that are passed down to children even if they did produce genetic alterations in the first place.

Vaccines and “purity of essence”

Now you can see why I started by extolling the virtues of Dr. Strangelove as a movie. The character of Gen. Ripper, as ridiculous and frightening as he is, represents a very strong belief system among human beings, namely a belief in “purity of essence” and a fear, mostly inspired by longstanding religious or mystical views, that we must keep ourselves “pure”. Normally, that purity is spiritual, but that spiritual belief underlies a lot of the belief system underlying alternative medicine, which is why there is such an emphasis on “detoxification” and fear of “toxins” in the alternative treatments advocated. Indeed, I’ve likened “detoxification” to ritual purification on a number of occasions, because that’s what it is, at its core, and antivaccine beliefs often derive from or overlap with alternative medicine beliefs.

Indeed, such is the fear of “contamination” or “corruption” among antivaxxers that mRNA vaccines have been described as “transhumanism.” Transhumanism is a social, scientific, and philosophical movement devoted to the idea that humans can be enhanced by technology, be it biological, computer-based, or physical. The idea is that such technologies would augment or increase human perception, physical abilities, intelligence, and cognition, and also radically improve human health and extend human life spans. The ultimate outcome is thought to be the “singularity”, a time when computers become so advanced that artificial intelligence transcends human intelligence, potentially erasing the boundary between humanity and computers, even leading to the merging of humans and computers. For purposes of these vaccines, the “permanent alteration” of human DNA falsely ascribed to COVID-19 vaccines by antivaxxers is often portrayed as a form of transhumanism. However, the claim that vaccines are transhumanism predates mRNA vaccines. Indeed, the first time I encountered this claim was nine years ago, when I encountered Sayer Ji claiming that vaccines were transhumanism designed to subvert evolution. The basic idea is that vaccines make you no longer entirely human.

This fear of “contamination” due to DNA or RNA in vaccines is not new either. Does anyone remember “homologous recombinaltion tiniker“? That’s a mispelling of “homologous recombination” that became a longstanding joke among science advocates about an old antivaccine claim in which it was argued that DNA from the “fetal cells” used to manufacture some vaccines would get into the brain, undergo homologous recombination with our DNA, and produce “foreign” proteins that would result in autoimmunity and cause autism? (Apparently incredibly minute amounts of fetal DNA were so powerful that they can contaminate the entire nervous system.) Remember all the fear mongering about “DNA contamination” of the HPV vaccine detected by incredibly sensitive (and possibly false positive) PCR assays that caused “microcompetition” with endogenous DNA, leading to disease? All of these are variants of the fear of “contamination” by vaccines. It even goes so far that one antivaxxer claimed that there is a “genetic memory” of foreign substances the body encounters and that there is a limit to how much such material our body can handle before genetic alteration occurs! Yes, it sounds a bit like homeopathy.

Sometimes, antivaxxers even try to flip the script and project their views onto science advocates, as this antivaxxer did:

I’ve been chatting with an LQ commenter who messaged me the other day to say that vaccination is a ritual of cleansing. Those who partake are clean, and those who do not are unclean. Heck, you’re unclean for even questioning it, even if you did partake.

They see themselves as clean and pure and see us as vile and germ ridden.

Invoking “terrain theory,” the idea that once competed with germ theory but was supplanted by it and stated that germs didn’t cause disease but were rather a manifestation of a diseased “terrain”, another antivaxxer said:

As an analogy, flies don`t create garbage. But garbage attracts flies that breed maggots to create even more flies. Removing garbage is more effective than spraying toxic chemicals, which endanger human and animal life, around the house. Similarly, adding toxins to humans is not as effective as cleaning out the inner terrain.

“Purity of essence”, indeed.

Unfortunately, this emphasis on “purity” vs. “contamination” or “impurification” is strong in many cultures and religions. It is even stronger in alternative medicine, with treatments based on “detoxification” and preventatives based on avoiding unnamed “toxins” being such a huge component of such quackery. It’s no wonder it is also a strong strand in antivaccine beliefs and has been for a long time.

There is nothing new under the sun in antivaccine beliefs, as much as it might seem that way in the age of COVID-19.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

470 replies on “Antivaxxers don’t want COVID-19 vaccines to “impurify” their “purity of essence””

Years ago, Orac discussed how the Laws of Similars and of Contagion explained in The Golden Bough ( see Search: Sir James Frazer) are applicable to the primitive thinking style of anti-vax/ alt med belief: it’s worth a read. Nothing is new under the sun indeed.

It seems as though alt med/ anti-vax divides substances into “good” and “evil” as well: there are “healing” nutrients ‘ herbs and “toxins” (sic) that are encountered in everyday life which are, respectively, to be avidly obtained or avoided entirely. Leaders encourage followers’ fears of extremely small amounts of “contaminants” in vaccines and other products that go far beyond reasonability but are emotionally tinged and portrayed as “deadly”. If a product contains any taboo substance at all ( metals, ‘foreign’ DNA/ RNA, “chemicals”, fetal cells, animal cells etc) it is thus totally contaminated and labeled as a scourge or poison. “The dose makes the poison” isn’t true in this style of thought because even a single microgram spoils the batch- it’s not about chemistry, it’s about grace and sin, black and white, good and evil, purity and rot. .

Thinking about purity and contamination as portrayed by woo-meisters and anti-vaxxers, there seems to be a simple formula: Nature is pure as it was created by G-d AND human inventions like pharmaceutical products, “chemicals” and processed foods are thus never acceptable. They interfere with Nature’s ( i.e. G-d’s) wisdom
.
Of course, you might say, don’t woo-meisters make their own products to interfere with G-d’s Plan? No, they merely isolate the pure phytochemicals found in Nature and make them easier to acquire and ingest thus benefiting health in a Natural Way.

Vaccines subverts G-d’s Plan by circumventing beneficial, Natural infections that prime the immunity in the proper way. So although they look like manufactured, human products, supplements and powdered vegetables/ fruits are REALLY all Natural If your read altie websites, you’ll note the endless emphasis on Nature and plant based products.**

** I know ,I know which are processed in factories but let’s not focus on that. .

The basic idea is that vaccines make you no longer entirely human.

By that logic, getting sick at all by a viral illness makes you no longer entirely human. I have to feel for people that have HIV or HTLV.

Someone is strangely obsessed with Dr Strangelove.

I bet you absolutely hate Aprill 22nd, Earth Day, with all it’s hullabaloo about cleaning up trash and how we should deal with toxic waste sites.

I could see you living in Love Canal and saying “But it is OK , these man-made chemicals are a great thing, invented by wise scientists and not affecting us in any meaningful way. You should just keep your house and drinking the water. The manufacturers are not to blame for your sickness.”

Poor deluded man, really…impurity cults?

By the way, the Cold War never went away, mutual assured destruction still exists as much as it did back in the 1960s.

It’s also weird that Alexa doesn’t seem to know that ecologists and conservation biologists are also scientists.

Heck, my grandfather was a chemist and one of his proudest achievements was cleaning up the runoff from the coal mine he worked for enough that the river would support carp again. (Not that he described it that way to his bosses; to them it was about saving a valuable resource they could use rather than throwing it away.)

Maybe Alexa’s having a bad week. Maybe she needs some nice cat snuggles. (But only if she likes cats.)

JustaTech

Please, I went to a university that had one of the first Environmental Science degree programs and also a Marine Science program that focused on improving the ocean instead of raping it..

You certainly assume a shitload of things.

And my cat snuggles with me all the time, plus my son gives me hugs daily so I get lots of love from those two.

F68

Well, since I actually take vaccines it is a little hard to call me a “rabid antivaxxer”. I always get a laugh when people like you call me that.

That I prefer to decide which vaccines I take and which ones I will not take, appears to mess with your Worldview that all vaccines are good.

It is like a person saying hydrogen peroxide is good and a chemical, so Sarin is good because it is a chemical too. And that is a huge mistake.

Not everything science comes up with is good when it is used indiscriminately and without thoughtful care.

Just look at the plastics filling up the ocean and releasing estrogenic chemicals into our food and water. There is a limit of the garbage the World can deal with.

Hence Global Warming, which I have been talking about since 1969. Science makes stuff, companies sell it and then we have to deal with the outfall years later when we find out the stuff is toxic.

So keep on thinking everything science comes up with is great. I will pick and choose what I think is great, and discard the rest.

I actually live in an area where the US government flood the only good farmland for hundreds of miles around. Leaving the people to have to either move away or build their homes and try to farm on rocky mountainsides.

Thousands of people suffered for that dam so a distant city would had electricity. Almost 80 years later and the locals are still angry at the towns and farmland they had lost. Cemetaries that were lost they still hurt over and they place wreaths on the water in the middle of that “lake” that covers their ancesteral homesteads once a year.

We have taken up so much space there is an room left for wildlife. So there is no surprise we are developing viruses that once were exclusive to animals. That is where your disregard for other living things leads to.

Humans first is a fallacy.

@Aelxa I remember you saying that you would not take COVID before none is available. Seems quite antivax to me.
Of course vaccines are not good just because they are vaccines, and nobody is saying that. Some clinical are needed first.

@ Aelxa

“Well, since I actually take vaccines it is a little hard to call me a “rabid antivaxxer”. I always get a laugh when people like you call me that.”

Being antivax is not about taking vaccines. It’s about spewing nonsense. About creating an atmosphere of distrust based on nonsense and hysteria.

Get your definitions straight.

Aarno

That is your definition of “antivax” but it is not in the dictionary.

In the dictionary Oxford Languages “antivax” the definition is “opposed to vaccination”. And “antivaxxer” the definition is “a person opposed to vaccination”.

Since I am not opposed to vaccination, I am not an anti-vaxxer. I get vaccines, even my son who has Autism got all his childhood and school vaccines.

As I said before, I pick and choose which ones I get, not all vaccines are good in my opinion. Especially ones that have not even finished the studies normally that have to be done, before a vaccine is licensed.

I do not care to be part of a testing group, thank you very much, and I will wait to see what happens before I make up my mind if a vaccine is of benefit to me and I will take it.

I and my son also already had COVID-19 back in March 2020, and from the Medscape CME I took this past week he is still likely protected since 80% of his age group still had effective immune responses. In my case it is only 47% but then I still use a mask, face shield and 75% alcohol wipes to prevent infection. And I and my son still stay away from being around other people, and only enter a store twice a month. Add in using telehealth instead of going to the doctor’s office, and I am still effectively in lockdown.

Even with vaccines this Pandemic is not going away anytime soon, the new variants will continue to cause problems for years yet, since people think once they get the vaccine they no longer need to wear masks,etc. A complete fallacy, of course.

So you are perfectly free to take any of the COVID-19 vaccines out there. I even posted a note and like to an article on what to do to insure the best immune response to a vaccine, if you bother to remember.

@ Aelxa

“Since I am not opposed to vaccination, I am not an anti-vaxxer. I get vaccines, even my son who has Autism got all his childhood and school vaccines.”

M’kay…

“As I said before, I pick and choose which ones I get, not all vaccines are good in my opinion. Especially ones that have not even finished the studies normally that have to be done, before a vaccine is licensed.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EoAHdwGBvU

The conceit…

Aarno

Of course I said I would not take the COVID-19 vaccine… because it was not going through the normal testing and licensing procedure. I am not signing up to be a study participant, thank you very much.

As the Nuremburg protocols state an experiment participant is to be a volunteer and not forced to be part of an experiment.

So if you wish to be part of the experiment you are quite free to do so. It is your decision over your body and you have every right to do so. But no one has the right to say I have be a part of the experiment by taking one of these vaccines. Just do not volunteer me, thank you.

If you want to force me, then you are a Nazi.

F68

The conceit is yours, to think all vaccines are good no matter what.

But then you are as rigid as a Nazi in your thinking. I bet no one likes to live with you, you would demand they think EXACTLY as you do. And do what you say they should do.

Misanthrope, that describes you so perfectly.

@ Aelxa

“The conceit is yours, to think all vaccines are good no matter what.”

The conceit is yours to imagine you are able to correctly decipher the science on that matter. Not to mention your dubious understanding of morality.

“But then you are as rigid as a Nazi in your thinking.”

Do not play the Nazi card with me. Or do so at your own risks.

“I bet no one likes to live with you…”

People like me very much in fact. Open minded, tactful, polite, intelligent, good looks (when I care to put that forward, which I do not). I just do not want contact with people any more. Thank you very much.

“…you would demand they think EXACTLY as you do.”

Oh no. Absoluteley not. But, on the Internet, if you push your crazy ideas forward, you’ll find mine on the way. That’s part of the game of free speech and liberal democracy. Stop whining because I do not think EXACTLY as you do.

“And do what you say they should do.”

No matter what you think of me, all these traits are not what made the nazis morally reprehensible universally in all cultures all across the globe. It’s not even that the nazis were merely racists: you cannot compare the level of nonsense and barbarity pushed forward by the nazis compared to, even, racist policies in South Africa (with the possible exception of the Namibian genocide). The amount of barbarity is not even comparable to mere totalitarianism. North Korea is the most heartless regime the human species has ever designed. It does not nonetheless rise to the amount of barbarity of the nazis: the Zyklon cost one US penny per corpse for the nazi genocide. That’s the kind of figure that makes the nazis universally reviled. A mere totally totalitarian state does not even rise to that level of barbarity and transgression of all moral norms imaginable. One US penny.

“Misanthrope, that describes you so perfectly.”

Thank you very much. You’re, by the way, not laying forth a very good case, with the exhibitionism of your distateful personality, for me to change my opinion on humanity. Proud to be a misanthropist.

F68

I am just dishing back the distasteful slop you dish out, Mr Misanthrope.

You just do not like receiving back comments similar to your own output.

Waa, waaa crybaby. The number of hateful names you have called me and others, is nothing to a single Nazi designation of you from my hand.

You might notice the difference, but you just tend to assault anyone who does not agree with you.

My family is German going back nine generations, though my parents came here before WW2. My Mom left Germany in 1938 to come to America, she was horrified at what was going on.

I do not think you can tell me anything about the Nazis. My poor paternal aunt was forced to marry an SS officer at 16, because she had good blue-eyed, blond hair genes. They had an extensive “eugenics” program, and women were forced into marriages to Nazi military officers.

Thankfully she was able to escape that marriage after WW2, after he was imprisoned she divorced him.The Nazis did a ton of despicable things, though the horrible concentration camps took the cake.

And do not forget they sent their own German citizens to be gassed who did not fit their set of Aryan physical and mental parameters.

Hitler was not even German, he was Austrian, was a draft evader from the Austrian Army, and supposedly had a Jewish mother.

F68

Your misuse of Minions is stupid.

You might note they tended to destroy all the evil people they worked for. Beware, they may do you in to.

@ Aelxa

“Waa, waaa crybaby.”

Ouin! Ouin!

“The number of hateful names you have called me and others, is nothing to a single Nazi designation of you from my hand.”

Which “hateful name” of mine do you criticise ? Tell me, and I’ll tell you if I retract it or persist. Until then, sod off.

“You might notice the difference, but you just tend to assault anyone who does not agree with you.”

Nope. That’s not an assault. An assault is something else.

“My family is German going back nine generations, though my parents came here before WW2. My Mom left Germany in 1938 to come to America, she was horrified at what was going on. I do not think you can tell me anything about the Nazis.”

Oh ? I just did. So I can.

“And do not forget they sent their own German citizens to be gassed who did not fit their set of Aryan physical and mental parameters.”

What makes you think I do not know about them ?

“Hitler was not even German, he was Austrian, was a draft evader from the Austrian Army, and supposedly had a Jewish mother.”

And his name was Schicklgruber. So what ??

“Your misuse of Minions is stupid. You might note they tended to destroy all the evil people they worked for. Beware, they may do you in to.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EoAHdwGBvU

When you’re finished with the nazis, tell me. We’ll then attempt to get back on topic.

That’s why I positively loathe people like you: they take any discussion, sensible or not, and turn it in a dick wagging contest about nazis. Pathetic.

@ Aelxa

“Poor deluded man, really…impurity cults?”

Y’a know, Aelxa, the interplay of religion and medicine is a bit more complex than that. The purity cult has many shades. Some are rabidly antivax. Like you. Some are rabidly pro-health, anti-death and pro-medicine. If life is sacralized in medicine, it’s also because many medical professionals internalize religious belief systems in their medical ethics. Sometimes in their too personal medical ethics, that may not coincide with the patient’s ethos…

Now, concerning the impurity cult of scientism, the deal is simple, really: we cannot afford to hinder economic and human development on the mere basis that trees, bees, whales and snails are sacred. It is acknowledged that we have to minimise damage, but not at the cost of being civilisationally regressive. Except if we cannot do otherwise.

Simple example: say you have the decision to build a dam. Consequence 1: you may hurt the natural habitat of some fishes. Consequence 2: electricity, water storage, and a bigger reservoir for fishes. Fishes that won’t cross the dam.

What choice will you make ? Minimise all risks and stop people from having access to water ? Or save the fishes… The simple fact is that there are priorities. 2 billion people do not have access to clean water. So you make a choice.

The same thing occurs for chemicals. There are some chemicals that I wish we could ban and overstep bureaucratic processes on the ground that it’s pointless discussing on the safety of a chemical whose only usefulness is that it makes things appear whiter than they are. I believe we should, in the European Union, say “nah, don’t care about safety issues, this is just a pointless chemical, keep it to yourself”. But then, we simply need rules because the absence of rules makes the situation precisely worse. So we cannot really do that anyway.

“By the way, the Cold War never went away, mutual assured destruction still exists as much as it did back in the 1960s.”

It has changed. People want to nuke countries on the basis of cartoons nowadays…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6XUR6HaXJg

The issue is not mutually assured destruction anymore. It’s proliferation and serious whackos. It’s a serious but nonetheless different threat. Even the US / China confrontation has little chance to go nuclear. Most states have backed down from backing their ideologies with nuclear threats. Except a few whackos that need to be dealt with tactfully. Rocket Man, typically.

May I expand upon your excellent analogy?

It used to be you had to pick, fish or dam. But a lot of people were unhappy with that choice and said “why can’t we have both?”
And a lot of people put their heads together and worked very hard on engineering and ecology and fisheries and a lot of other things and now, at least in my area, we’re remodeling dams so they hold water and make power but also let the fish up and down the river.

And it’s not like chemical engineers don’t keep revising processes to make their manufacturing processes safer and less polluting (under pressure from environmentalists) but also to find safer chemicals to perform the same work.

I think that’s a thing I’ve noticed with a lot of anti-science people, or people on the fringes of anti-science; they think “Science” has stopped. That it was all set in stone 50-60 years ago and nothing changes. Which can’t be further from the truth.

JustaTech

If you bothered to keep up on the “dams and fish ladders” topic you would know they are not working well.

In addition the newly-hatched fish are having problems getting down river to the ocean despite those fish ladders.

The only cure they have is removing dams and that topic goes on and on, with papers and articles still being written every year.

But who needs Salmon anyway, right?

@ Aelxa

“In addition the newly-hatched fish are having problems getting down river to the ocean despite those fish ladders.”

As if I cared.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgLTSQQZokk

“But who needs Salmon anyway, right?”

These people need water, electricity, sanitation, development, and, at the time of apartheid, development projects that allowed both sides on the low-intensity civil war over there to sketch a path forward.

Screw the fishes.

Moreover, in such dams, locals can have income by precisely putting fish in the reservoir.

All this nonsense about fishes is ridiculous given the stakes. It just big time major league bullshit to simply not care about human dying. Water is more precious than gold. And the fish have these big oceans for them anyway. Can we have the mountains ?

Overfishing is a serious issue, on the other hand. But salmon in dams ? Just trying to find excuses for your regressive agenda and your Stone Age fantasy. Not buying it.

F68

“Water is more precious than gold.”

Yup and that is why we people use more water each day to flush toilets than we could ever drink in a week.

Talk about warped priorities.

Dams are about electricity, not drinking water.

And I think the Native Americans in the NorthWest would say killing the Salmon is killing their brothers, as all animals are our brothers.

But you are a “Humans First, and F__k all other living things in my way” person.

Let me educate you, about the Web of Life. If you destroy too many areas of the Web, the entire structure starts to fail.

Take pesticides and bees for example. Here in the US about 90% of our food is fertilized by bees. We are looking to a future where people will have to hand fertilize crops if we will want to eat.

But hey, F__k the lower animals and insects right? Leaves more room for you to be destructive,…. shame you will have nothing to eat and likely no oxygen to breathe.

Yes, we are also killing the Diatoms in the oceans that produce 30 to 80% of the oxygen we breathe. The percentage varies with the article you read. Add the trees we are killing daily and other activities, etc your Brave New World will be uninhabitable with no breathable atmosphere for us Humans and most other creatures.

Sure you can have the mountains, but your crap flushes directly into the oceans, and it all adds up to killing the oceans and the creatures that live there. Your crap does not stay on the mountain, and meanwhile the other creatures that ALSO live on the mountain are being pushed to extinct by your greedy, self- absorbed behavior.

@ Alexa:
It’s not just ladders, you know. There are chutes too. (And no, that isn’t a joke.) Again, you’re acting like everyone just stops after the first idea.
Also, the dams are being removed, where they are not needed for electricity production or flood control.

@F68.10: I believe that the dams Alexa and I are talking about are in places with abundant rainfall and plentiful safe drinking water, so there is no risk to human access to water if some dams are removed or modified.

Also, the specific fish we’re talking about (salmon) migrate from the ocean to freshwater as part of their lifecycle, so they can’t just stay above the dam or in the ocean. And, the restoration of the salmon fisheries is a human justice thing, as many of the indigenous people here relied on salmon for their livelihoods, and are guaranteed access to the fish by law (which has mostly been ignored for the past 100 years).

But again, it’s a case of people working together to meet everyone’s needs (including the fish).

@ Aelxa

“Yup and that is why we people use more water each day to flush toilets than we could ever drink in a week. Talk about warped priorities.”

What is warped priorities is thinking that we can solve water supply issues by not flushing toilets and not building dams.

“Dams are about electricity, not drinking water.”

Nope. Dams are not only about electricity. They also are about water management. See the Renaissance Dam on the Nile which is almost on the brink of starting a war. Because it’s not only about electricity. And water management also means storing water for agriculture instead of pumping water through the ground.

“And I think the Native Americans in the NorthWest would say killing the Salmon is killing their brothers, as all animals are our brothers.”

Yeah ? Well they also have a right to start thinking about real issues. If they’re morons, they are morons. Native americans or not.

“But you are a “Humans First, and F__k all other living things in my way” person. Let me educate you, about the Web of Life. If you destroy too many areas of the Web, the entire structure starts to fail.”

Nope. I’m a “nuke the world” type of guy. 100% misanthropist. And let me educate you about the Web of Life. It starts with water.

“Take pesticides and bees for example. Here in the US about 90% of our food is fertilized by bees. We are looking to a future where people will have to hand fertilize crops if we will want to eat.”

(Yawn…) Don’t blow everything out of proportion. This happens in China. Not the US for the moment. And nuking nuclear plants won’t solve the bee problem. Urban planing, water management, pollution reduction measures in concerned areas, that may help. But we’re not there yet. So trees, bees, whale, snales will have to adapt. Natural selection. May be a bit rough, but hey… that has nothing to do with dams. Do not confuse everything.

“But hey, F__k the lower animals and insects right? Leaves more room for you to be destructive,…. shame you will have nothing to eat and likely no oxygen to breathe.”

Pfff… 100% False dichotomy. The rest is BS.

@ JustaTech

“Also, the specific fish we’re talking about (salmon) migrate from the ocean to freshwater as part of their lifecycle, so they can’t just stay above the dam or in the ocean. And, the restoration of the salmon fisheries is a human justice thing…”

I’m just making the point that there are priorities. And I’m completely ignorant of the issue of indigeneous people on your side of the pond. It may be a real issue. Dunno. But I still cannot bring myself to prioritise salmons over water management issues. Just can’t.

(And honestly, I’m getting fed up with mindless nature lovers. There is a limit to idiocy. In France, golf course must legally be given clean water. In Cyprus, golf courses must legally be given used water. Guess who has it right ? The Heavy Metals Fearing People ? Or people who use clean water for better use than golf courses ?? Fed up. Seriously.)

JustaTech

“Under pressure from Environmentalists”.

Nice of you to point out that making things safer is primarily due to people saying the stuff is not safe, and insisting on solutions. Of course the replacement is not always much better, example the replacement for BPA is worse than BPA.

Sometimes it is better to say the whole idea of plastics is not environmentally sustainable, we need to just go back to glass and metal where possible. Glass and metal are completely recyclable, and even if you throw glass into the ocean it is inert and makes pretty “beach glass”, after a few years in the wave action, which you can turn into jewelry.

We used to collect “beach glass” when I was a kid…..now you go to the beach and all you find is nasty plastic trash and shards that are ugly and dangerous to walk on. Never mind that the microplastics finding their way into the flesh of fish and other sea creatures people eat.

Plastic is not biodegradable, it only turns into smaller and smaller and smaller pieces that are getting absorbed by plants and animals.

JustaTech

Yup I know about the chutes for the baby fish, but they still have not figured out how to get most of them to go to the chutes so they will survive. The problem involves water flow patterns and how to nudge the fishlings over there, instead of them doing through the machinery and becoming fish soup.

We have been trying to fix this problem for over 30 years and still no solution in sight.

Naturally F68 does not care about the Salmon, or the Native Americans. But somehow the Natives of Africa matter. I think he is just a simply plain Contrarian, what happens on our continent is not as important as what happens in Africa, in fact North America of no value at all.

What is funny is he thinks using potable water that is safe to drink is OK to use to flush body wastes.

The Earth has lots of water, the problem is most of it is undrinkable. If each house or building used grey water to flush toilets it would reduce clean water use immensely. If houses near by the ocean had a system of using saltwater to flush toilets, that would save drinking water but still require sewerage treatment.

Even if we used Electric toilets that baked and dried the human waste that would use no water at all plus require no water treatment for what is usually the main source of toxic sewerage.

But F68’s idea is “to hell with saving drinking water, just dam the water and use it up here before it can get over the border and into the next country where they might need to have that river as it is their only water source. Screw them, the river is on my side of the border and I can use it all here if I want.”

The future wars of the World are going to be about water, realllllll soon. Which is why the Koch Brothers focused on buying water rights long ago.

There is future big bucks in drinking water, pardner.

Did you know that in most if the West you are not allowed to even catch and save the rain that falls on your house? There are laws that say that water is not yours, even if it fell on your roof and is flowing through your rain gutters. You can not save it in barrels to water your garden, or to flush your toilet.

@ Aelxa

Oh my, oh my, oh my… what a shitload of bollocks.

“We have been trying to fix this problem for over 30 years and still no solution in sight.”

Come on. Point 1: you haven’t adressed the fact that priority is water management rather than fish. Because you do not want to and do not care. Point 2: these fish pass are functional and do work.

“Naturally F68 does not care about the Salmon, or the Native Americans. But somehow the Natives of Africa matter.”

The Salmon ? Yeah. Do not give a damn. The Native Americans ? Do not know the issue very much. But I do resent people claiming to speak in their behalf to push their own agenda. Very much. As for the “Natives” of “Africa” (they do have countries and ethnic designations over there, you know… in Lesotho, they’re called basothos, not “natives” of “Africa”), yeah I do care about them. Went to school with them, grew there, lived in that country, know or knew the reality there, and the King of Lesotho happens to agree with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqsbYOe2eNM

“I think he is just a simply plain Contrarian…”

I oppose nonsense like yours. Yep.

“what happens on our continent is not as important as what happens in Africa, in fact North America of no value at all.”

I am not living on your “continent”. I am not that informed of all the issues over there. Though I do believe the US is irreplacable on the geopolitical map. And I’m very happy your president has engaged a plan on infrastructure. You needed it.

“What is funny is he thinks using potable water that is safe to drink is OK to use to flush body wastes.”

I just think that you cannot hope to solve large scale issues by expecting people to abide by rules without incentives. For instance, I know I should close my lights when sleeping. I just cannot be bothered to do it. Because I’m sick and in pain. So it’s hopeless counting on me. What is not hopeless is putting various constraints and nudges to solve issues. That’s called nudge theory. And dams. And, yep, I do not believe flushing my toilets less often will solve the issue of peasants in my country pumping water from the soil to irrigate their corn crops. They’re doing a mess. Sea water contaminates the phreatic zones and dumps salt in them. Flushing my toilets less often will not solve that issue. Water management infrastructure and financial penalties are the way forward. Get your priorities straight. And people with no access to clean water in the world (2 billion people) likely couldn’t care less about my toilet flushing habits. Get real. They need infrastructure.

“The Earth has lots of water…”

On the surface ? Nope. Not that much. Much more in the earth’s crust, though.

“…the problem is most of it is undrinkable.”

And there are techniques to solve that issue. Stuff like reverse osmosis. Which is precisely called water management. And that goes hand in hand with building dams so that we can offset natural hazards.

“If each house or building used grey water to flush toilets it would reduce clean water use immensely.”

Bollocks. First: that won’t happen. People are told not to use illegal drugs and they still do. Tell them how they should use their water… I bet they’ll be more receptive to your genius ideas. Seriously: you’re bonkers.

“If houses near by the ocean had a system of using saltwater to flush toilets, that would save drinking water but still require sewerage treatment.”

Bollocks. People do not all live by the ocean. And 2 billion do not have access to clean water anyway. You completely miss and ignore both reality and the stakes. Agriculture amounts to 70% of all water consumption. And there is not enough water for that already. Clean or not.

“Even if we used Electric toilets that baked and dried the human waste that would use no water at all plus require no water treatment for what is usually the main source of toxic sewerage.”

People still do shit in the ground in many places, or shit in the same water they drink. Maybe you should take a trip outside of your “continent”…

“But F68’s idea is “to hell with saving drinking water, just dam the water”

That’s a minimum, yes. Glaciers are melting. We need a way to keep the water from going straight from the clouds to the oceans through rivers. Glaciers were reservoirs. We now need dams.

“…and use it up here before it can get over the border and into the next country where they might need to have that river as it is their only water source. Screw them, the river is on my side of the border and I can use it all here if I want.”

Nope. Hydrodiplomacy is a crucial matter. Whether it be in the Turkey/Syria zone, not even mentioning Israel, which is an offender when it comes to water management, or whether it be Egypt who is on the brink of war because China is pushing Ethiopia to withhold water to pay its debt now that it’s trapped in debt with that Renaissance dam on the Nile. These are serious issues and should not be minimised. Doesn’t change the fact that dams are needed. Even on the Nile.

“The future wars of the World are going to be about water, realllllll soon.”

Yep: people do not stop fucking because they live in the desert. Whether Chad or the middle east. So, yes, water and infrastructure may indeed be at the heart of future conflicts.

“Which is why the Koch Brothers focused on buying water rights long ago.”

Pfff… typically naive fear-mongering leftie propaganda on the matter. The Koch brothers are assholes. Doesn’t change the fact that money needs to be poured into water management infrastructure all around the world.

“There is future big bucks in drinking water, pardner.”

It’s already very massive investments. And has been for quite some time already…

“Did you know that in most if the West you are not allowed to even catch and save the rain that falls on your house? There are laws that say that water is not yours, even if it fell on your roof and is flowing through your rain gutters. You can not save it in barrels to water your garden, or to flush your toilet.”

Not where I live. Just checked. You’re only forbidden to cook with it. Or to collect it if your roof contains asbestos. Which is a rather sensible policy coming from my control freak central government. I nonetheless wish I could move to Trantor to get a taste of devolution. I hear they treat mathematicians well over there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZd3xUDudy8

Did you know that in most if the West you are not allowed to even catch and save the rain that falls on your house? There are laws that say that water is not yours, even if it fell on your roof and is flowing through your rain gutters.

Not in the U.S.

@ Leonard Sugarman

“F68.10- Nazis have been and are reviled for many reasons and long before anyone had heard of the cost of one penny for Zyclon gas to kill one person!”

Of course ! What I mean is that, honestly, they really did overdo it !

That’s just the point: if they had merely persecuted the Jews, you know, “honestly”, it would have been as despicable as, say, the Uyghurs. Or as racist as South Africa. But, I mean, the world would have survived it as just yet another persecution in world history. But what they did, honestly, it’s kind of the icing on the cake of human barbarity given the extent to which it beggars belief.

If the genocide hadn’t happened, the anti-communist feeling that fueled the nazi rise would be a much more audible excuse to the nazi regime and nazi ideology that people would still, in bigoted circles, toss around around tea time as nonsense masquerading as civil and tasteful discussion.

But given the extent of the nonsense and sheer mental torture they cast upon people before murdering them en masse, the only thing that is possible to claim nowadays is “it’s not because you’re anti-communist that we may brush over your nazi sympathies”. Had the genocide not happened, people would still excuse nazis because of anti-communism. Some still do, but these are almost universally acknowledged as serious (and dangerous) nut jobs. They would be much less acknowledged as such in public opinion had the genocide not happened.

Bottom line: fed up by people such as Aelxa throwing the nazi card around just because we do not think EXACTLY like her…

Did you know that in most if the West you are not allowed to even catch and save the rain that falls on your house? There are laws that say that water is not yours, even if it fell on your roof and is flowing through your rain gutters. You can not save it in barrels to water your garden, or to flush your toilet.

In the Australian Capital Territory where I live, rain collection from rooftops is actively encouraged by government:

This is why rainwater tanks are so important. By collecting and redirecting rainwater from the roof to use in your home and garden, you can reduce demand on the ACT’s drinking water supply. You can also reduce the amount of stormwater runoff that reaches our creeks and rivers, where it can cause downstream flooding and erosion.

And it doesn’t require a licence to collect it:

Do I need a licence to take water from my rainwater tank?

No. Under the Water Resources Act 2007, there is no need for a licence to take and store rainwater.

From: https://www.actsmart.act.gov.au/quick-tips/water_saving/using_rainwater

F68

Since you a “100% Misanthrope, nuke the World kind of guy” why the hell do you care about vaccines then? After all, the more people that die the better you should feel.

I think you are completely full of it, and you only goal in life is to be as obnoxious as possible. And to be as nasty as possible while garnering points in your little vicious game of dick-wagging.

I could always call you a Turk instead of a Nazi, in reference to the 1915 Holocaust the Turks visited on the Armenians. But no one wants to feel bad about the Armenians who were completely wiped out in Turkey.

The Turks have now eliminated all Armenian cemeteries in the last decade, their grave markers being pulverized to dust and plowed under.

Now in 2021 the remaining Armenians live principally in the US.

F68

I remember a French hotel in a small town not having no toilets at all. There was a little shack in the back yard with two foot sized stones over a hole. While this was 1963, they at least saved water on flushing toilets at that particular hotel.

Africa has multiple languages that have nothing to do with any particular country, they are all tribal languages, so what particular word you decide to use does not matter. We are writing in English here, so I will use English words.

We have similar water problems in the US out West.

California wants all the water flowing to the sea to water their agriculture and give water to the cities in California. The states around California want to use more of the water within their own states. They set up water agreements and tend to stick to them while complaining mightily.

Being greedy and keeping as much of the water in one country as you can will only bring war faster. If an African head of a country thinks he can keep it all, then he will get to reap the results. Thank goodness I do not live there. Greed is a terrible thing when you get to the final result.

70% of the Earth is covered in water, put most is undrinkable. If you think desalinization is cheap…ask the Israelis and Saudia Arabia. Treating ocean water to drink takes alot of energy, not to mention chemicals and filters.

I lived in the NorthEast during a drought that required water rationing back in the late 1970s. If your water bill was too high, you got a big fine to pay. I still shower by getting wet, turning off the water to lightly soap, and then rinse fast to save water. When the reservoir has only so much water in it, each flush matters.

If you think such water saving is pointless than you have no idea how much drinking water you waste. Every little bit can make a big difference in real life, using resources greedily will have negative consequences.

For agriculture you can use the drip watering method that uses a fraction of the water regular irrigation uses. They invented it in Africa long ago, using leaky pots to slowly drip water directly to roots only.

But hey, grab all the water and be a real sucking tick, the end result will be not pretty.

F68

The Nazis did not rise because of Communism, they came to power because of massive debt from WW1 that Germany owed other countries, and inflation making money worthless and no jobs to be had.

They just picked on the Communists and Socialists first to throw into Concentration camps before concentrating on the Jews, gypsies, etc.

It was a matter of saying… let us get rid of the rabble we do not like, since all our problems are caused by “those people”.

Who “those people” were just kept changing as time went on. And soon everyone wondered how it got to where it finally did go.

@ Aelxa

“The Nazis did not rise because of Communism, they came to power because of massive debt from WW1 that Germany owed other countries, and inflation making money worthless and no jobs to be had.”

Are you dumb ? Of course communism was a major point of contention back in the days ! In Germany, the paramilitary groups that were fighting in the streets were the communists and what were to become known as the nazis.

This is beyond ignorance from your part. And the complacency democratic regimes had towards fascism and nazism was underpinned precisely by the fear of communism spreading.

“They just picked on the Communists and Socialists first to throw into Concentration camps before concentrating on the Jews, gypsies, etc.”

As Leonard Sugarman explained to you: if it were only concentration camps, it would have been fair game given the spirit of the times. Do you know what was called the places were refugees were set after the war ? Concentration camps.

What was specific of nazism with respect to concentration camps was the intermingling of the concentration camp with the medical delirium they had, not only on race, but of all forms of degeneracy, both physical and mental. And this has deeper roots than merely nazism. But nazism brought it to the forefront with public policy and propaganda trying to convince people to euthanise disabled people because they cost too much. The kind of legacy that hampers any sensible discourse on euthanasia and/or assisted suicide.

It was not merely political persecution. But on the purely political front, yes, communists and socialists were first in line. And they did not pick on them “first” (Rheinland bastards and mental patients were first in line for the medical killing aspect of things…) just because it fancied them. But because the issue of communism in the whole of Europe and Germany too was considered a serious threat by many. Nazis included. And they were right on that, the same way that a broken clock is accurate twice a day.

“It was a matter of saying… let us get rid of the rabble we do not like, since all our problems are caused by “those people”.”

That’s a very simplistic take on the matter. It completely overlooks the wider context of the rise of nazism. And again, the fear of communism was high. The precise kind of political instability that led Hindenburg to convince himself to give Hitler a try…

“Who “those people” were just kept changing as time went on. And soon everyone wondered how it got to where it finally did go.”

No. It did not change. It was quite fixed: The jews and the communists. The disabled. Homosexuals. And various groups such as Jehovah’s witnesses. It was not “changing all the time”. It corresponded to fixed beliefs about who are dangers to society. And, honestly, these ideas haven’t changed much since the nazis. Listen carefully around you, and you’ll still find in 2021 the same kind of people that are considered threats to society. This is part and parcel of the mental disease of the western world. Other parts of the world have different obsessions. The problem of the second world war was not merely “not liking jews”: it was civilisational suicide. One of which Europe will never recover. Only Poland did recover. It was thoroughly murdered and is now alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibcgZZnLTZ4

F68

The Nazis and Communists were fighting because of the inflation and lack of jobs. Food was scarce unless you lived on a farm that you owned.

Do you really think this stuff came out of nowhere and for no reason? They just decided to fight for the hell of it?

That is like saying tRump came out of nowhere and for no reason. He wound up as President because of lack of jobs from the jobs moving to Mexico, China and other places. And we have had lots of inflation since 2008.

The exact same situation in many respects as the 1930s Germany, except for the War reparations Germany had weighing them down.

You want to get power, claim a group is the cause of all the troubles and then crackdown on them.

It started in Germany with the Communists and Socialists, then the Jews etc.

Those different groups were not collected all at the same time.

@ Aelxa

“The Nazis and Communists were fighting because of the inflation and lack of jobs.”

Nope. They fought long before 1929. The Russian Revolution was 10 years earliers. It was a long-standing issues. And the germans had the blow of defeat to deal with and a democracy they were not accustomed to. These were more structural issues.

1929 of course was another blow. But that kind of blow cannot be prevented. If you want to deal with serious issues, deal with the structural ones first. Do not blame what cannot be predicted nor prevented for unsolved structural issues.

Not dealing with the rest of your drivel. Your analogy with Trump is senseless. Joblessness is no excuse for autocracy. What explains Trump is massive stupidity bolstered by the Internet. What explains the generals believing they can threaten a coup around here is, again, massive stupidity bolstered by the Internet.

Democracies should be tailored to resist joblessness and economic crisis. Now… tell me to what extent that implies banning political parties that threaten to opt out of the democratic process. Like these seditious generals around here that are playing on words not to recognize civil authority while pretending “not to have said the word “coup””. To which extent should we forcefully silence hypocrites, whackos, and liars. By which I mean people like you. You tell me…

That is like saying tRump came out of nowhere and for no reason. He wound up as President because of lack of jobs from the jobs moving to Mexico, China and other places Hillary Clinton.

FTFY.

And we have had lots of inflation since 2008.

You might want to try to put that one back where it came from.

@Aelxa No one claims that vaccines are safe because they are invented by wise scientists. For proving safety. a clinical trials are needed, plus post marketing surveillance. Besides of that, Love Canal was essentially an illegal dump site.
Antivax commentators here have said multiple times that vaccines are dangerous regardless of the dose. Regardless of amount, you are permanently damaged. This is clear purity cult thinking.

But at the same time anyone with any level of logic wouldn’t pump thimerosal into their infant. Also anyone with any level of logic would admit the vast majority of the western medical system has been a massive failure and a detriment to human well being at best. Obviously icu workers aren’t equipped with adequate knowledge so maybe a new approach needs to be taken. Maybe relying on people who are part of a failed system and the the most corrupt unethical companies in the world (pharmaceutical companies) isn’t the move and shockingly stupid.

@TJ:

Also anyone with any level of logic would admit the vast majority of the western medical system has been a massive failure and a detriment to human well being at best.

You are very wrong. That “Western” medicine you disparage took us from a World where dying before you reach 18 was the more likely event to one where it is rare enough to be considered tragic. Vaccines, antiseptics and antibiotics, anti-rejection drugs that allow transplants, transplants, and many other innovations have all lengthened lifespans and saved people who centuries ago would have died.

@TJ Removing thimerosal did not reduce autism rate, you know. It was used to prevent bacterial contamination in a multidose vial, a quite rational thing.’
Western medicine have raised life expentancy quite a lot. I so not consider this a failure.

TJ

I would not say the majority of medical science is a bust.

Only about 25% of medicines are no better than a placebo, and the other 75% are iffy when poorly produced, but they do help to extend lives.

The problem is poor production and the added other not healthful to absolutely toxic ingredients.

Take my blood pressure medication. If I take the brandname medication I only need 20mg to control my BP. Take the generic and I need to take 80mg of the medication to have the same effect.

What is the difference between the beandname and the generic? There is not supposed to be a big difference and the generic is SUPPOSED to work as well as the brandname.

But hey, the FDA does not care to enforce their rules, and so we get crappy ineffective generic drugs made in India. And are told we should be happy since these ineffective medications are so cheap.

Yup, cheap when my co-pay is $3 a pill for trash. If I had the extra $600 a month to buy the brandname I would. But with Social Security giving us a so generous 1.3% increase this year, when my groceries went up 25 to 30% in the last year, buying brandname is not doable.

@Aelxa Generic means out of patent. Molecule is exactly same, and medication is same. Notice that you are a pharma shill. You want to prevent competition to their out of patent medicines.

Aarno

You are an idiot.

All my medications are generic, that is what the VA gives out.

However this one medication for BP called telmisartan, is an extremely fragile molecule like mRNA is. The brandname is Micardis and it is made in Germany. I even contacted the company to see if I could get it cheaper from them direct.

The molecule is so fragile that you are not to take it out of the blister pack until right before you swallow the pill.

The crap from India comes either loose in a pill bottle and the stuff does nothing at all. Or in a blister pack from India that barely works.

My other generics work fine, but telmisartan made in India stuff is like the Moderna vaccine….the slightest exposure to air and the telmisartan is worthless.

I would love to have a job, than I could eat more than once a day. Fool, you just like having the last comment and it was a stupid one, too.

Aarno

I do not care doodley about patents, a generic is supposed to be as effective as the brandname. Period.

The crap we get now as a generic for my most important medication, to control my blood pressure, is crap.

When I can take 20mg of the brandname and my BP is fine, and taking 80mg of the generic still does not control my BP properly something is wrong with the generic.

My doctor said we could add a second BP medication. And my response is “Why should I have to take a second med with the possibility of side-effects doubling, if one pill of the brandname medication works perfectly?”

This does not make me a Pharm shill, it makes me a pissed off consumer who wonders why the FDA is not doing their job. If I have to buy the brandname I will be down to ZERO meals a day.

Narad

Every single telmisarten drug reference clearly states to keep the medication in the blister pack because it is “moisture sensitive”

I live in an area where the humidity never gets under 70%, and often hits 100%.

This drug is useless in a high humidity environment, it easily dissolves into a puddle in a few minutes if exposed to air where I live.

So saying it is stable is not true unless you live in a humidity and temperature controlled home that keeps the humidity low.

F68

I said you are free to take any of the vaccines if you want. I certainly do not force anyone not to take a vaccine, that is your prerogative to get a shot.

My prerogative is to not take an experimental vaccine and just sit back and watch the experiment. 40% of the US military is sitting back and watching the experiment because the Government can not force them to take an experimental vaccine.

You all act as if the testing phase is over, when in fact it is not. If it was, 100% of the military would be vaccinated. It takes years to fulfill all the requirements for vaccine licensing.

It does not matter how you personally look physically, your personality is misanthropic and not appealing at all. You could look like Cary Grant and I would pass on you.

@ Aelxa

“I said you are free to take any of the vaccines if you want. I certainly do not force anyone not to take a vaccine, that is your prerogative to get a shot.”

I do endorse the idea that the state has legitimacy to use force to levy taxes, to secure law and order, to wage war, and to enforce democratic decisions such as mandatory vaccinations if that is its wish. Denying the state that right is anti-democratic.

“My prerogative is to not take an experimental vaccine and just sit back and watch the experiment.”

That statement has nothing to do with politics, politicking, or human rights as it pertains to medicine. This is a bona fide scientific claim you are making. And you are wrong.

“40% of the US military is sitting back and watching the experiment because the Government can not force them to take an experimental vaccine.”

I am not cognizant of each US institutional idiosyncrasy. I do not see nor care much about your US army fetish.

“You all act as if the testing phase is over, when in fact it is not.”

Of course it is. It is over as it pertains to safety issues. If real issues come up in the course of vaccination, then adjustments will be made. This is perfectly normal. But the level of testing is over, compared with the massive real-world stakes: getting the economy back on tracks and carving a path out of lockdowns. All other considerations are basically whining by crybabies like you.

“If it was, 100% of the military would be vaccinated. It takes years to fulfill all the requirements for vaccine licensing.”

Do not give a fig about your US army. This does not constitute an argument.

“It does not matter how you personally look physically, your personality is misanthropic and not appealing at all. You could look like Cary Grant and I would pass on you.”

You were the ones making demeaning statements about my personality. Good or bad looks come with the package. I answered that I did not give a damn about what you thought about me, and you still do keep insisting that you do not like me as if that mattered in any way or were an argument. So once again: Me, Apollo, God of Good Looks among the Gods, does not give a damn about what you think of me. Capici ?

(Why do people believe they can be more arrogant than a frenchman ? Beats me…)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO4sd7dIoWg

After a lot of thought and many discussions over the years I’ve come to the conclusion that the only place where the concept of “purity” should be applied is to reagents/ingredients, and there only to specify that those things are free of specific contaminates.

Everything else is just gross and often deeply dehumanizing.

“Purity” with regard to a woman’s virginity/chastity – gross and patriarchal. (Never seems to apply to men, hmmm…)

“Purity” of bloodline (in people) – gross and racist and also used to apply things like the divine right of kings in the modern day. But mostly really, really racist. You can be proud of your ancestors without talking about yourself like you’re a C57/BL6 mouse.

“Purity” of bloodline (in animals) – eeehhh… some actual use when you’re talking about laboratory strains bred for specific traits/genes. Maybe in agricultural animals as well, or when working with a breeding program for endangered animals. The question to ask is “why” it matters. A transgenic mouse? Sure. Your pet dog? Maybe less so.

“Purity” with regards to religion – yeah, that’s super open to abuse of the powerless by the powerful. I mean, if you want to fast and meditate or go be a hermit, cool, you do you. If you want to use the idea of “purity” to hurt people, that’s a no. How many wars have started over that?

“Purity” with regards to ideology – same as religion, it’s almost always a way to hurt or punish or remove others, and not used to actually interrogate ideas. Nope.

I am sure there are several interesting dissertations on the roots of the concept of “purity” that delve deeply into where this stuff comes from.

What gives, Orac?

I see there is very little skepticism in the comment section, so I will add my two cents. But maybe you CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH.

You see Orac, YOU are Mike Adams. Remember your unhinged attacks on BIPOC Bility and BIPOC/Jew Mercola? Lets hear it from the horses mouth
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/04/13/covid-19-response-resembles-holocaust-tactics.aspx?
“Holocaust survivor Vera Sharav warns that the global response to COVID-19 mirrors the tactics employed in Nazi Germany to segregate Jews and other undesirables, with the intent to commit mass genocide”
I see that you keep refering to Mercola with the Q-word, its a slippery slope. Why? Because you are OTHERING. and blaming others while you do not see it in yourself.
Heres YOUR magical thinking.

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/pfizer-moderna-vaccines-blood-clots/
“Utilizing a search criteria that included reports of blood clots associated with blood coagulation disorders, VAERS yielded a total of 795 reports for all three vaccines from Dec. 14, 2020 through April 1, 2021.
Of the 795 cases reported, there were 400 reports attributed to Pfizer, 337 reports with Moderna and 56 reports with J&J — far more than the eight cases under investigation, including the two additional cases added Wednesday.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/04/vaccine-related-blood-clot-mystery-must-be-solved/618623/
” In other words, training up the body to go after the spike protein could yield antibodies that stick to clotting-related proteins too.”
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/04/19/vaccinated-people-more-susceptible-to-covid-variants.aspx?
” Experts have raised warnings about the problematic history of coronavirus vaccines and their propensity to produce antibody‐dependent enhancement (ADE), which could make vaccinated individuals more susceptible to infection by SARS-CoV-2 or its variants”

You see, as an vaccine expert you would know that all previous coronaviruses vaccines have failed and that vaccines in general take more than a year to make. Yet you were cheerleading new unproven tech like mrna and adeno without any awareness of the precautionary principle. Thats clearly unscientific.

We can now clearly see that the vaccines are going to be a tragedy, as it seems each vaccine generates blood clots.

Luckily I know the real solution: SUPPLEMENTS, here are some suggestions
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/04/07/coronavirus-treatment.aspx
https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2020/07/08/nutraceuticals-reduce-clots-with-covid-19.aspx
I especially like the suggestion of spirulina, since I take it everyday and the science clearly shows its effective.
https://www.alternativemedicine.news/2020-03-04-spirulina-boost-type-1-interferon-response-to-fight-rna-viral-infections-coronavirus-science.html
https://m.jpost.com/health-science/israeli-researchers-say-spirulina-algae-could-stop-covid-19-deaths-660064
Mercola sells premium spirulina here.
https://www.mercolamarket.com/product/2939/1/organic-spirulina-120-per-bottle-30-day
I spend up to 400 a month on supplements and you cant convince me Im not getting my moneys worth or that the vaccine is safer as a COVID-protection. Ive done my research.

Not so much skepticism as unhinged conspiracy mongering.

Joe Mercola is no more a person of colour than I am.

Spirulina?? Here is something that black, indigeonous, people of color do not want you to know:

The mice that had the storm and were not treated died. But the mice that were treated with the molecules they found in the yogurt had a complete recovery. The molecules not only eliminated the cytokine storm, they also restored balance to the immune system..
.
.
The path from the lab to the table is likely to be long, Jelinek admitted. Even though the molecules come from yogurt that people could eat every day, they would be considered a drug and will have to undergo the full scrutiny of any new medicine before receiving approval, Jelinek said.

As such, the company will likely take the molecules in another direction at the same time – as a food additive, probiotic or supplement – to speed up the approval process, he said.

https://www.jpost.com/health-science/could-a-cup-of-yogurt-cure-your-case-of-covid-19-664976

I’ll buy it, but I’m not putting on the little beany hat; That would just be blasphemey as I’m ingesting dirty little microorganisms. Which might be kosher if they don’t have blood.. oh vey, I’ve twisted myself in knots, haven’t I?

p.s. is Joe Mercola Jewish??

Tim, why are you so fragile?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Fragility
I remember you, you called the genius Bility “Mobility”. First ORAC attacks a BIPOC foi fun (hes not getting paid for that one) then you finish the job.
Put yourself in Bilitys shoes, hes has encountered racism 10 million times growing up and had to work 10 times as hard to get where he is, only to get attacked once more like that in the name of “western science”.
You guys probably dont even realize your science is probably inherently racist, like math. Must be nice to have privilege like that. Its called systemic white supremacy.
https://equitablemath.org/
You see science is not objective, nor is math. Even worse Orac attacked “other ways of knowing”, which is integral to BIPOC culture. You guys attacked his name and heritage, not just his paper.

I was even checking to see if your link was racist as milk can be considered racist as well.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/17/milk-new-symbol-racism-donald-trumps-america/
Luckily it seems that kefir does not contain much lactose, so I must thank you for giving me the chance to add another thing to my routine, so I can avoid the jab in the future. Sure feels weird to thank a racist.

Also, youre not allowed to use “oh vey”. ask Joel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation

You have lots of learning to do, Tim,

but I suggest you start with The Quest for Cures
https://go.thetruthaboutcancer.com/final-chapter/ttac/?a_bid=73f07a59&a_aid=5a84a1f683718
The best part is: you can watch and learn for FREE, starting tomorrow. FREE is the best! I know what im gonna do this week.

Heres a summary

EPISODE 1 4/21″The Sordid History of the Cancer Cartel: A Century of Suppression & Censorship”
EPISODE 2 4/22″Why You Get Cancer: Do You Have “Bad Genes”? Do Vaccines Cause Cancer?”
EPISODE 3 4/23″Affordable Treatments, The Anti-Cancer Diet, Healing Herbs & “Defensive Eating”
EPISODE 4 4/24″Heal Your Heart & Beat Cancer with Laughter, Music, Homeopathy, Frequency & Light”
EPISODE 5 4/25″Cancer-Fighting Plants, Herbs & Spices from God’s Pharmacy & Nature’s Medicine Chest”
EPISODE 6 4/26″How to Detox, Healing w/ Heat, Hidden Hazards, Halogens & Hormone-Driven Cancer”
EPISODE 7 4/27″Juicing Essentials; Ketosis Facts & Fictions; The Importance of Oxygen & Pet Cancer ABC’s”
EPISODE 8 4/28″Nature’s Liquid Elixirs; Cancer Diagnostics, Oral Health, Essential Oils & Healing Skin Cancer”
EPISODE 9 4/29″How to Survive & Thrive; Cancer Conquerors Share Personal Stories of Inspiration & Hope”

Q-Ball

Actually I was the one who noticed Mo Bility was Mobility, and noted perhaps his mother gave him that first name in hopes of him being able to get ahead on life despite the American cultural bias against anyone who was not a white Male.

If I remember right, Tim only wrote that he should have noticed Mo Bility = Mobility.

@Q-Ball Let us with start with episode 1. How are alternative cancer cures suppressed ? You yourself promote them, and nobody is censoring you. It is just that diets do not cure cancer. There actually have been clinical trials

I don’t know if Moses would go by ‘Mo’ much — too sterotypical. See: Mo Brooks (though he’s a ‘Morris’).

https://youtu.be/NkObGEZDyYw?t=199
https://youtu.be/hWQD-SXHIcw?t=213

“I was even checking to see if your link was racist as milk can be considered racist as well.”

Uh, oh. Milk is my staple food. I do put a little chocolate in it to get a taste of the other side though. In fact, I may even be a race-traitor as I Ioathe vanella in any but the tiniest amounts. I hate funeral flowers that smell of vanella.

What’s with the racist math? Launguage barrier? General learning environment? Base-10 is racist because some tribes might be missing a couple toes?

There was a black guy at our high school, very friendly fella. He had no problems that I could ever see {doesn’t mean they weren’t there). In fact, I bumped into him a few years later and his profession was mathmetician — In the Dirty South; go figure.

O.K. But if EPISODE 2 doesn’t feature that at the heart of all cancer is yeast, then I’m out.

Narad

You are going to be waiting forever to get rid of that timeshare. My brother has one he bought in the 1980s, only a 1/2 mile from the entrance to Disney World. He can not get rid of his either.

And Chicago area is flat as a pancake. Try getting a signal between two 3,000 foot mountains that are 1/2 miles apart in a low population area with no repeaters.

This is mountainous rural America, not the big city.

Why does everyone think if they have it in the city you have it in rural areas? There is not even a Starbucks in the closest city which is a two hours drive on the highway going 65 miles a hour. Thankfully I do not drink coffee.

My only addictions are clean water, clean air, and clean food.

Tim

You should ask yourself why do they need to put the molecules into a pill, if just eating kefir supplies the molecules in amounts that are effective?

Taking a perfectly inexpensive, good and nutritious food and making an expensive pill instead. All to make money, instead of telling people to drink kefir.

Oh wow, a food company might make more money than a pharmaceutical company. Gee.

Indeed Julian, Im getting ad-hominemd so much, its clear the pro-vaxxers stopped caring about science, they arent even talking about the MRNA blood clots (its one thing if only adeno have them, but its a big issue that mrna has them as well). Thats why Orac spends half his article talking about a boring movie (I have never watched it, because too poor growing up) But it must be nice to be born wealthy.

Q-ball: It’s on Hulu, Amazon Prime and Netflix. Chances are also very good that it is available to borrow from your local library.

How do you know it’s boring if you’ve never seen it?

(It’s mRNA, not mrna, nor MRNA.)

JustaTech

It is laughable that you think even now that someone on Social Security is able to afford any of those pay-to-view movies things. First your new to purchase internet access, after you get the computer to go on the internet, and then you have to pay for the movie service.

What shall we give up to afford all that? I am down to one meal a day. Shall I give up eating totally?

Borrow from your local library? You must live in a rich area where they can afford such stuff. Here in Ruralville the counties are so poor you are lucky to get new books at the library.

JustaTech

You are taking over Narad’s job again, he is the site English teacher, not you.

Nit-picking on capitalization…. is the last resort of the person with no other point. Besides I have seen it written on other posts here as MRNA.

Moderna,Inc stock designation is even MRNA, which I bet they pushed for when they became a member of the stock exchange to sell stock.

It is laughable that you think even now that someone on Social Security is able to afford any of those pay-to-view movies things.

Funny, my late father could.

Narad

Yup, your late father could afford a time- share on a Florida beach with no fat people and a ton of other things on Social Security alone.

What BS.

80% of people on Social Security get way under the $900 a month I get. My neighbor across the street gets $513 a month from Social Security. Of course he is 16 years older than me, so he retired from being a teacher back in 1999. Try to make ends meet as a person in their 80s on $513 a month.

Good Luck with that. I barely can afford to eat one meal a day with $900 a month after paying all my bills. And I have no debts beyond a mortgage.

@Alexa: The suggestion was for Q-ball. I have no way of knowing anyone’s financial situation, which was why I suggested the library. Also, everyone here on this internet board has at least some access to the internet, although it is very possible that this access is not fast enough to stream video.

I am sorry that you are so hungry. Have you contacted your local Meals on Wheels? They may be able to provide you with more food.

It sounds like he squandered it all on milk, bread, tin of meat for the cat, and DirecTV…

“Frugal” has not been a thing since 1953.

Since she posted “Here in Ruralville”, it is highly likely that she’s on the very pricey and very worthless Hughsnet satellite internet {fighting Musk hard right now}.

One thing it does do well is let one watch high-bandwidth video. But, like and oil tanker, I would not call it ‘fast’ but ‘high capacity’.

JustaTech

Have you seen the food Meals-on-Wheels gives out? Here in the rural hinterland it is cheap starchy carbs with lots of salt, etc.

If you have medical problems like me, just the Celiac Disease requiring gluten-free , they say we can not help you. We have no ability to make gluten-free food. Never mind the multiple food allergies problem.

Not even the food banks have gluten -free etc. Maybe in a wealthy county they can help supply gluten-free foods and deal with food allergies. Here you take what they have or go away.

So I get by on one meal a say, while my doctor says I need to eat more or else. All while taking care of my son who has Autism.

I access the internet thru my prepaid phone, forget Youtube never mind movies, not enough GB a month to do that.

Tim

Satellite? Are you kidding?

I have not seen a TV show in years since they stopped free broadcasting, I used to get a signal over an antenna. Now I get nothing.

Do you know how much satellite service costs a month? How far do you think $900 a month stretches when you need to buy medicines to stay alive before you even buy food? The co-pay for just one of my medications is almost $100 a month, and I take seven medications a month.

You know when you are working you think your Social Security will cover the bills, but when the cost of living increases on utilities, housing and food is way beyond the yearly Social Security increases they give you… it takes only a few years for you to be robbing Peter to pay Paul. When you get down to one meal a day there is no more “give” to work with.

I mean I even flush the toilet once day to reduce the water and sewerage bill, which is still almost $60 a month.

Frugal is a daily reality in America.

Alexa, Q-Ball admitted spending up to 400 a month on supplements. This means he/she could easily afford Netflix or Amazon Prime. The supplements aren’t keeping him/her alive after all.

Yup, your late father could afford a time- share on a Florida beach with no fat people and a ton of other things on Social Security alone.

What BS.

Yet here I am trying to unload the timeshare and waiting for the Cubs game on Extra Innings. Perhaps he, y’know, worked a lot before retiring.

I have not seen a TV show in years since they stopped free broadcasting

Funny, my friend in Chicago without cable gets about 22 channels over the air.

How far do you think $900 a month stretches when you need to buy medicines to stay alive before you even buy food?

Have you applied for Medicaid?

“I have not seen a TV show in years since they stopped free broadcasting

🤦‍♂️

You must have an old TV before the switch to digital. I still have the free, unopened “Analog Pass-Throuh DTV Converter Box” the government gave me. On the box it says “Eligible for the $40 converter box coupon” (which I don’t remember what it means), the “digital television transition notice” (feb 17, 2009), and some other stuff which I won’t pull the box out to read lest a mountain of crap comes tumbling down.

Tim

Try living in the mountains where you need frequent repeater towers.

To save money in “low population areas” they have shut down all the repeaters in my area, so there is no TV signal to be had.

I laugh when I get the PBS fundraiser mailing and just trash it. We did not even get a PBS signal before the commercial stations shut down their repeaters.

On top of that the government sold most of those frequencies years ago to be converted to cell phone use.

I have a 2 year old flatscreen TV but there is just no signals. At least I can watch DVDs on it.

NumberWang

It depends on the individual, though I can not see spending $400 a month on vitamins and supplements unless there is a medical condition requiring it like malabsorption problems requiring extra nutrition.

I remember AIDS in the beginning, and the people who could afford vitamin and supplements lived longer than those who could not afford them. They have AIDS treatments that work now, but the experience of those with AIDS showed that there was some basis to improving life expectancy with nutrients.

I take a few like a multi and CoQ10, but nowhere even close to that amount he spends. My medications are more important.

I think Dr Strangelove is a silly movie to even bother watching. Now Solent Green is more applicable to World conditions today and in the future.

Narad

Maybe your Dad worked alot. Implying I did not work alot?

I started working in my parents business at age 5. By the time I left home at 18, I had already been working full-time for 13 years.

That was 13 years I got no credit for because the government allows a family business to use the children as workers without reporting it.

Then my son became Autistic, suffering a cardiac arrest less than 48 hours after his six month shots, so at 38 years old I had to stop working to take care of him. Which I am still doing at almost 67. My husband died at 49 of Agent Orange Lung Cancer when our son was 4 years old, Agent Orange exposure courtesy of three tours in Vietnam as a Navy SEAL.

You know the stuff you assume is crap of the lowest order. People like you assume people who are not well off were less industrious, and that is a huge fallacy.

Hmmm. I thought it was determined that Mercola was Catholic?

Surely disallowing criticism on the basis of race is racist?

There’s a possible reason someone may speculate that Mercola is Jewish:
Wikipedia says lists his mother as Jeanette Aldridge ( nee FREEMAN)
“Freeman” could be a Jewish name although there are many Black people and Christian Anglos using it. The old rule “If the mother is Jewish, the child is also” might be considered but I have only read him talk about being Catholic.

Numberwang, you couldnt be more wrong.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory
According to CRT Orac wrote a racist post about Bility. You see, CRT looks at racism from a holistic perspective, not reductionist. In the reductionist view, that Orac benefits from the system and Bility the reverse is not taken into account, so it appears hes not racist. In CRT, Orac is racist. Thus Orac attacking Bilitys culture is so much worse than Bility hypothetically attacking Oracs culture.

Holism > reductionism. Here and in healthcare

You cant disagree with me, because it means you are one of them.

In September 2020, President Donald Trump issued an executive order directing agencies of the United States Government to cancel funding for programs that mention “white privilege” or “critical race theory”, on the basis that it constituted “divisive, un-American propaganda”.[61][62][63] He specifically called out the value of meritocracy. On January 20, 2021, President Joe Biden issued an executive order rescinding and canceling Trump’s previous executive order and once again permitted agencies to use such programs.[64]

Yup, Orac is trapped. He should censor his disinformation about Bility. Since hes pro-censorship, he should be okay with that.

I dont know what race Mercola identifies at. What he identifies as is all that matters. Since its like this with gender as well (transgenders)

@ Q-ball

“According to CRT Orac wrote a racist post about Bility.”

Pffffffff……

Nobody is interested of Billity’s race or Mercola’s religion. Things they say are another matter.
There have been no coronavirus vaccines before SARS CoV2. SARS CoV2 vaccine works very well in Israel (which means that holocaust mongers are not involved)
There cannot be segregation against antivaxxers. Just take the vaccine, and problem is solved. You cannot change your race.
Mercola says that his supplements works. Perhaps additional proof is needed ? Do not believe every add you see.

Aarno

“Holocaust mongers”

Wow, we have a racist on the list.

As a person whose parents are German and who had family members like my uncles in the Nazi Germany military… I can assure you the Concentration camps and the Holocaust was quite real.

No wonder you are so rigid and a “fall in line and shut up” person. I mean, ” there can not be segregation against anti-vaxxers. Just take the vaccine” . Since I am not in the military you can not make me take the vaccine. I never signed my body over to the government.

” There have been no coronavirus vaccines before SARS CoV2″.

Wow, you should tell that to the US military, they were injecting a coronavirus vaccine into soldiers back in the 1990s.

Not to mention the MERS vaccine, which is a coronavirus vaccine.

“You can not change your race.”

Since “Race” does not really exist as a gene, but is merely a made up idea not based on any real thing, you can guess where I would ask you to put this statement. There are only like four genes that control skin color and both Whites and Blacks have the exact same genes controlling their skin color

So, so racist Aarno.

“I especially like the suggestion of spirulina, since I take it everyday and the science clearly shows its effective”? YHBT.

I spend up to 400 a month on supplements and you cant convince me Im not getting my moneys worth or that the vaccine is safer as a COVID-protection. Ive done my research.

Thanks, Q-ball! This is such a classic statement: I will be sure to quote you time and again over the coming years. Apostrophes and all, you really could not have phrased it any better. You just won’t understand why.

NA

Be sure to NOT take Vitamin D3 or kefir, since they actually have proof they work against severe COVID-19 infection.

You want to make sure if you get COVID, it has the best chances it could possibly have to kill you.

Keep that blood Vitamin level really low, I suggest a level of 15 to help COVID best.👩‍⚕️

“I especially like the suggestion of spirulina, since I take it everyday and the science clearly shows its effective.”

Interesting that you didn’t link to any site that relies on science as a basis for commentary.

Many supplements and vitamins on the market are made by Big Pharma.

But hey, it’s your money, spend it as you will.

Was there some confusion about the use of “YHBT”?

I’m dismayed that people are taking this seriously.

“Some ancient rituals presented dangers. The child, on his way to becoming a man, would be sent out to live alone in the forest for a brief period and survive…are transmuted into protective spirits in the body.”

Ohh. I’ve seen this one: https://youtu.be/0MQHOIXzjHk?t=98

{some asset seemes to have gotten confused. From “257SHARES25120130” to “Quoth RFK Jr.:” is a re-run. No problem unless something else was supposed go go there??}

Oh, it’s definitely about purity. And a heaping heap of racism and bigotry.

“No one discusses that DNA is passed onto the next generation. The risk that your children will marry into other cultures is possibly now shadowed by the fact that your children may marry into a COVID vaxed gene group potentially shortening their lives and that of others.”

[Bolding mine]

Original story is at The Daily Beast but it’s limited to members only. (Feh!) Here’s the link to the Raw Story article: Anti-vaxxer hysteria hits new heights: Covid vaccine turns you into a different race
https://www.rawstory.com/vaccine-conspiracy/

Oh eww.
Seriously.

Who wakes up in the morning and says “I’m going to be a massive bigot”?

Scratch the surface of an antivaxxer and you’ll find a bigot of one type or another.

As we might expect, anti-vaxxers Adams and Wakefield, have teamed up with righties/ Trumpites at the Tulsa Freedom event ( see Natural News, yesterday) described on an audio about these G-d-loving freedom fighters, most open carrying heat, praising the lord and advising us about health!
It seems that Andy will inaugurate new social media to replace censor happy Facebook,Twitter et al in a month or so Mike is encouraging greater interaction amongst these groups.
I imagine that racism will be part of the programme- maybe quietly, maybe not- dog whistles and secret hand signals perhaps?, .

Terrie

Scratch the surface of any human making comments here and you will find a bigot.

Just look at Aarno, and his comment about the Holocaust.

A bigot is anyone who thinks anyone not in their group is wrong or bad in some way. Let us see, we have people who think others who are not as rich as they, are to be segregated away from them so the rich live in “gated communities”. Yup, they are bigots. Keep the dirty, lazy poor other humans away from us. Do not let them even see how we live by driving past our homes. They may attack us and steal our stuff.

I do not think there is a single human being that is not bigoted in some way, whether it involves race, nationality, religion, or anything else they focus on.

I myself have an unreasonable dislike of people with pale blue eyes. They give me the creeps and I avoid them like the Plague.

I just want to say that Jaden Smith is so hot right now. If you are not ‘golden-child’ (interracial) Jaden Smith then I’m swiping left. I guess I am a bigot.

Tim

“then I am swiping left”….. hmmmm, swiping right is good, swiping left is bad.

Are you perhaps bigoted against leftys? Are you right-handed, hmmmm?💁‍♀️

Among the comments on that article at Raw Story is an image of a sign that says “Those who think that the COVID-19 vaccine will modify their DNA should see it as an opportunity.”

There’s also a neatly composed photo with a young black woman having a good laugh in the foreground and a guy in the background holding a sign that says “White, proud and with superior jeans.”

The comments at RS are a major reason I read that site. Often they’re better written than the stories.

Lordy, 9’th grade biology joke that probably doesn’t compute comes flooding back:

— how do you make a hormone?
— take away its’ jeans

EmJay

Darn my purity of being 100% German for nine centuries has been polluted by marrying and having a child with a half German-half Italian mongel.

I guess that officially makes me NOT an antivaxxer since I do not care about the “purity of my gene pool.

Glad to know, thanks.

This paper has no relevance at all to mRNA vaccines, because it is about opportunities to use aerosol delivery for mRNA therapies and the requirement for vectors to be able to do that as naked mRNA will not cross into cells.

However, I think you linked to the wrong paper and might have wanted this one in Medical Hypotheses that was also tweeted. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7685031/

Perhaps it is best described as a bit of grand hand waving. Get people who are PCR positive but not infectious for COVID-19 and send them out to immunize everyone else through mRNA inhalation.

It won’t work. People who are not infectious with SARS-CoV2 are not leaking mRNA from the spike protein all over the place. Even if they did and someone else inhaled some, it would do nothing, because mRNA cannot cross into cells without a vector.

I don’t think Medical Hypotheses has improved any. The same issue has a proposal to use methylene blue to treat COVID-19. You can also read about how balneotherapy can treat long COVID.

No, she has degrees in English Lit. Like Jennifer Margulies, she often adds, Dr or PhD, but doesn’t usually specify in what. An interesting account of her work appears in her bio at Wikipedia.

Heidi asked, “She has an actual medical degree?”
No.
Naomi Wolf has no known education in the maths or sciences.
She has a BA followed by a PhD in English Lit.
She knows nothing about science or medicine beyond that of a layman.
Her expertise is in feminism and literature.

I have a new objection! Vaccines are like divination!

“Amongst other objections, I personally feel that the nature of vaccines is immoral (unbiblical?) by nature. Take this man-made treatment, and some day (hopefully) you won’t get sick. This feels to me eerily like OT fortune-telling or divination (thinking Deuteronomy 18:9-14).”

Please tell me I’m the first to report this one….

Over the past 3 decades, the average number of yearly deaths reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) in the US was about 153. So far this year, VAERS has received 2478 vaccine death reports, all but 46 of them concerning the COVID-19 vaccines. That’s more than 16 times the normal rate of death reports for an entire year–and we are still only in the fist quarter. Why the massive increase?

Perhaps because nearly 200 million doses of vaccine have been administered in a very short period of time, plus the fact that unprecedented attention is being paid to monitoring the safety of these vaccines, plus the fact that much older people were vaccinated first, and they’re more likely to die by random chance alone. Seriously, dude. Pay attention. It’s not as though I haven’t written about this before, starting months ago. https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/02/08/antivaxxers-misuse-vaers-database-to-spread-fear-of-covid-19-vaccines/

It’s NOT the number of vaccines given this year—mainly because we are only in the first quarter of 2021.

Hundreds more deaths have been reported and millions more vaccines given since last week when I looked this up. However, if the average number of vaccines given per year is 280 million, we haven’t exceeded that so far this quarter. Even if it has been exceeded it is certainly not by much.

According to the CDC, VAERS is responsible for detecting vaccine safety issues as usual. CDC says it hasn’t detected any–how can that be? http://www.virginiastoner.com/writing/2021/4/19/death-and-the-covid-19-vaccines?fbclid=IwAR0FmKRW8nryP3Bn_zD3xYxTDGLBlsBVvyhcTKr5ifU4wp29z3mZ7ogaLBo

Otherwise you are suggesting various forms of mass hysteria, for want of a better term. This would obviously have to be hysteria among the relatives, friends and doctors of the deceased, since none of the deceased reported their own death. You should really post some support for your speculated causes because they just don’t seem like plausible explanations for the massive increase in vaccine death reports.

Hahahahahaha!

That “analysis.” Not even a scientist. That “analysis” is so simplistic that I laughed out loud reading it (between eye rolls, that is). Thanks, though. It might make good blog fodder when I get around to it. Here’s a hint: What’s the age distribution of those who receive vaccines every year compared to those who are getting the COVID vaccine now. That’s the only hint I’ll give you, and there are other problems there too.

Thank you, Orac. I certainly look forward to the learning experience when you present some sort of plausible evidence that the massive increase in vaccine death reports to VAERS has nothing to do with the safety of the COVID-19 vaccines.

i would also look forward to Dorit Reiss’s explanation, since she is widely regarded as a vaccine expert and also has training in psychology. She would be in a good position to address your ‘mass hysteria’ type explanations.

Straw man. I never said it was “mass hysteria.” Really, how can I take you the least bit seriously when you use massive straw men like that?🙄

Orac

From the CDC March 1,2021 Vaccine Safety Update……

On page 21, Pulmonary Embolism (subset of VTE) Events in risk interval = 19, expect events in risk interval=0, statistical signal(Y/N) = N

Explain this to me please, you have an expect Zero number yet you get 19 cases…but still it is not statistically relevant?

Hello, Hemorrhagic Stroke…Zero expected, but 7 cases, and yet again it us not statistically relevant?

There are a bunch of conditions on that list page… all clotting conditions where you have much more than the expect number of cases occurring.

As for “unprecedented monitoring” it is the typical monitoring of a study on an unlicensed vaccine. These are all unlicensed vaccines.

Feel free to rename your suggestions as something other than “mass hyteria” if you like–call them “unprecedented attention”, or “too many vaccines too soon”, or “they were going to die anyway” or whatever you like. Just provide some sort of plausible evidence that the explosion in vaccine death reports to VAERS is not due to dangerous vaccines.

You really aren’t very good at this, and the statement that “not a statistics expert by any means” is in contention for the understatement of the year.

Orac, if I’m as dense as you claim, it should be a no-brainer for you to refute me. Just produce some evidence that something other than dangerous COVID-19 vaccines is behind the massive increase in VAERS death reports, and watch my pathetically stupid self eat crow. Surely some expert, somewhere, has done a write-up on that, and I was just too stupid to find it?

Be careful what you ask for.

Here’s a hint. I sent your link to an epidemiologist and another doc. They both immediately pointed out what’s wrong with it, and they agree with me.

I gave you an enormous hint how the VAERS statistics can be pretty easily explained without the COVID-19 vaccine being deadly. It’s really quite simple and quite obvious if you have a little knowledge of demographics and statistics. You didn’t listen or didn’t understand, probably both. Think about it, and maybe it’ll come to you. If it doesn’t, I’ll eventually explain. Probably.

“and watch my pathetically stupid self eat crow.”

You shut your mouth. That phrase is reserved for persons who predict spacex starship tests not to explode and it is sacred. I’m reporting you to Q-ball. I hope yu get cancel cultured. You don’t know what it means to be any culture at all, especially not white, nor black, nor asian, nor polynesian, nor inuit, nor spics, waps, or jews. Fuck the belgians. I don’t care if you don’t know what it is like to be one of those, nor does anybody else {not knocking their beer, though}.

Orac, you say you gave me “an enormous hint how the VAERS statistics can be pretty easily explained without the COVID-19 vaccine being deadly,” but that I either “didn’t listen” or “didn’t understand.” Why don’t you just explain it clearly instead of dropping hints? This is a grave situation and not a time to be coy. And what happened to the epidemiologist and the other doc you mentioned who were going to set me straight about this? Do you have any links at all to papers that have been written about this, explaining the massive increase in VAERS death reports?

That is mindbogglingly inane, even by your standards Ginny.

A smidgen of thought would have saved you a whole lot of effort. In most years the majority of those receiving vaccines are children under 10. In the past year there has been a massive effort to vaccinate people against COVID-19, starting with the aged, the infirm and people with pre-existing health issues. A large number of such people will die within a short time of receiving a vaccine by coincidence, because, you know, they are aged, infirm and have pre-existing health disorders.

There is also that thing about VAERS.

It’s true that many of the reported dead from the COVID-19 shot were 65 years old or older–1898 out of 2432 reported deaths in 2021. BTW, that is an unbelievable 76% of all deaths ever reported to VAERS over its 30 year history–just from the COVID-19 shot. But the elderly are mass vaccinated every year with flu shots, pneumonia shots, shingles shots, etc. The total number of shots given so far this year is less than the usual number given in an entire year, so it really doesn’t explain the increase in reported deaths.

@ NWO Reporter

VAERS doesn’t detect vaccine safety issues. It reports what people believe/suspect to be vaccine-associated adverse reactions. As an example, approximately 1,500 – 2,000 American die every day from heart attacks. That would be between 21,000 and 28.000 every two weeks. Now imagine a 60-year-old husband gets, say, a flu shot and dies of a heart attack two weeks later. His wife would be distraught and want to know why/how she lost her beloved husband. She will think back and the only thing that comes to mind is there flu shot, so, she reports it to VAERS. This is called Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc, after something so that something caused it. The CDC has dedicated teams that monitor VAERS and any serious reported adverse events like heart attacks are thoroughly investigated, including obtaining medical records. In a way VAERS is like “suspects”, now called “persons-of-interest” in criminal investigations. Many times further investigation will rule them out. Antivax groups lock on to VAERS no matter how many times one explains how it works. In addition, the CDC has real-time data, Vaccine Safety Datalink, that links to databases of a number of large HM0s, where they have everything, age, gender, comorbidities, medications, and vaccine, including lot number, and CDC has several other vaccine safety projects. And then nations around the world have similar, UK, Sweden, etc. and the WHO collects most, if not all.

There is NOTHING in life that works perfectly, nor is perfectly safe; but vaccines are much much more highly regulated than any other pharmaceutical product, e.g., much larger study samples, more FDA oversight during clinical trials, and even after. Are rare serious adverse events possible? Yep; but compared with the exponentially higher risks from the actual natural infection, any sane person would go with the odds.

If you consider yourself open-minded go to CDC website for Vaccine Safety at: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/index.html

There is tons of good info, including list of studies they have conducted and go to PubMed at: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Type in: “Vaccine AND Safety”

I found over 24,000 hits. I repeat 24,000. Some are editorials, some reviews; but many original research studies. Again, over 24,000.

You can also go to Google Scholar and type in the same. Make sure “AND” all letters in capitals.

Dr. Harrison, you’ve said nothing relevant to the issue, which is, why the explosion in vaccine deaths reported to VAERS? All your comments about the inherent limitations of VEARS data are irrelevant here, because they’ve all been around as long as VAERS has. The issue is, WHAT HAS CHANGED?

@ NWO Reporter

That’s easy. First, proliferation of antivax websites, usually also downplaying risk/seriousness of COVID. Second, proliferation of social media, lots more than during last mass vaccination campaign for H1N1 2009 flu pandemic, which, by the way, later research found far more deaths and, unusually, 80% were younger than 60s. Third, some news networks. Fourth. New type of vaccine, mRNA (see below). There is more; but if people primed to believe vaccines inherently dangerous and risk of the vaccine-preventable disease exaggerated, then anything following a vaccine, Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc, will be “assumed” to be vaccine-related.

One current adverse event which has been reported to VAERS is blood clots; but studies over years find a much higher rate, though rare, in young women than found from the vaccines, e.g. 15,7 cases per million [Devasagayam (2016 Sep). Cerebral Venous Sinus Thrombosis Incidence Is Higher Than Previously Thought – A Retrospective Population-Based Study. Stroke; 47: 2180-2182. NOTE I HAVE MORE]

In fact, a recent study found also that the risk of clots were literally 10 times higher from COVID than found from Astra-Zeneca vaccine
[ Ingrid Torjesen (2021 Apr 16). Covid-19 – Risk of cerebral blood clots from disease is 10 times that from vaccination, study finds – BMJ]

So, with blood clots two possibilities:

(1) Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc. Since vaccines about 1 per million, could be just coincidence.
(2) Possibly eventually they will find that 1 or 2 were caused by vaccine. But risk from COVID 10 times higher, so odds 10 to 1. Plus, if the vaccine related to even very rare case, why? Possibility some genetic or other factor that makes that person more at risk; but then they would be at even higher risk from actual virus.

I was a volunteer in the Moderna COVID mRNA vaccine trial. Before volunteering I got out several molecular biology and genetics textbooks and refreshed what I know about mRNA. I then did a search of PubMed, Google Scholar, and Google for everything about mRNA and vaccines, going back 30 years. Read very very carefully. I’m 74 years old and not a daredevil. I realize that anything is possible; but based on over a month of careful study found the risk extremely low. Orac has already written numerous article refuting various claims about the mRNA, including that it can’t enter the nucleus and affect the DNA and the S-Spike protein is harmless, like a fingerprint from a detached finger. Antivax websites have played up the mRNA with claims that are completely bogus. Claims it was rushed, short-cut and didn’t capture serious adverse events. Nope. Phase 3 clinical trial involved 30,420 volunteers and did capture serious adverse events. We were required to come in for periodic blood tests, answer weekly questions, and report if any symptoms from a list. However, we also gave permission to access our medical records and contact our primary care physician, also informing him/her. Result:

Baden (2020 Dec 30). Efficacy and Safety of the mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine. The New England Journal of Medicine.

And we volunteers committed to 25 months, so continue to answer weekly questions and once-in-a-while show up at lab for blood tests.

Since I have been a regular blood donor for over 40 years, I decided to donate convalescent plasma, that is, plasma with antibodies to COVID for use with hospitalized COVID patients. I go every four weeks. Results from Blood Bank lab, high titer of COVID antibodies. And though they don’t do labs, other studies have found that the S-Spike protein also elicits high response of T-cells.

They are also conducting studies of possible asymptomatic viral shedding from vaccine recipients. Basically, antibodies high enough to lower virus below potential to cause symptoms; but still a few viruses that could be shed. Latest studies find little to no shedding and, like most microbes, as 15th Century Paracelsus said: “the dose makes the poison”.

In any case, not difficult at all to explain what so many more VAERS reports.

I should also mention that being retired with lots of time on my hands, starting in January I began searching for, downloading, and reading articles on COVID-19, medical journal articles, WHO reports, Swedish National Health Institute reports (note. I am fluent in Swedish), UK governmental reports, etc. I have bookmarked CDC, FDA, UK, Swedish, Canadian government pages related to COVID, etc.

We don’t live in a perfect world. Everything involves weighing risks and benefits. And, again, it is easily explained why so many reports to VAERS, especially given misunderstanding, assumption, approved in record time, no short-cut, and most people don’t understand genetic/molecular biology.

You clearly didn’t read her comment (or you’re just handwaving things away with no substantive counter-argument).

Joel

Blood clots in young women are mainly due to birth control pills.

With the Pandemic most women were not sexually active and stopped taking their birth controll.

Tell me, how does one compare 2019 to 2020 numbers of blood clots in young women if we have a reduction in birth control use? Are they bothering to take that change into account? Does anyone know?

Meanwhile, none of the “medical professionals” has bothered to comment on my question regarding the expected and actual cases of stroke and statistical relevance question I put to Orac.

Not even Orac.

PS: VAERS does detect safety issues. Read my paper I posted earlier. “As a hypothesis generating system, VAERS identifies potential vaccine safety concerns that can be studied in more robust data systems.” And it clearly runs analyses as well looking for adverse events occurring more frequently “than expected”, or “disproportionately”. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-01/06-COVID-Shimabukuro.pdf

@ NWO Reporter

So, did I wasted my time responding to you as I explained just what you are linking to, namely, that CDC has dedicated teams who monitor VAERS and investigate thoroughly any reported serious adverse events? So VAERS doesn’t detect safety, it reports suspected safety issues. Do you not understand the difference. I suggest you read my comment above carefully and stop wasting peoples time.

@ NWO Reporter

For the latest on all-cause mortality, go to:

Rossen (2021 Apr 16). Notes from the Field: Update on Excess Deaths Associated with the COVID-19 Pandemic — United States, January 26, 2020–February 27, 2021. MMWR at:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7015a4.htm#F1_down

The total number above previous year average was more than 600,000.

Note that most were either seniors and/or had one or more comorbidities; but without COVID many could have lived much longer, both good for them and for their loved ones and friends. And young people have died, fewer; but many developed Long COVID.

And there are separate stats on long COVID, adding at least an additional 200,000.

Dr. Harrison your link does NOT say that 48 times as many people died in 2021 than expected, which could provide a plausible reason for the increased reporting. I’m open to looking at COMPLETE mortality data–i.e., data going back 30 years or so, so we can put the present in perspective. But the death numbers you provided don’t even come close.

Dr. Harrison the CDC says themselves that VAERS monitors vaccine safety: “To date, Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) has not detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines.” But I agree, we should have seen more robust analyses following VAERS detection of a massive increase in deaths reported from COVID-19 shots. Instead, VAERS apparently says all is well.

@ NWO Reporter

You write: “PS: VAERS does detect safety issues. Read my paper I posted earlier. “As a hypothesis generating system, VAERS identifies potential vaccine safety concerns that can be studied in more robust data systems.” And it clearly runs analyses as well looking for adverse events occurring more frequently “than expected”, or “disproportionately”.”

I wrote: “VAERS doesn’t detect vaccine safety issues. It reports what people believe/suspect to be vaccine-associated adverse reactions. . . The CDC has dedicated teams that monitor VAERS and any serious reported adverse events like heart attacks are thoroughly investigated, including obtaining medical records. In a way VAERS is like “suspects”, now called “persons-of-interest” in criminal investigations. Many times further investigation will rule them out.”

Obviously you aren’t really interested in an exchange of information because, in essence, there is NO difference between what I wrote and what you cite from the article. VAERS provides what people suspect, CDC investigates. During criminal investigations, detectives investigate suspects. Maybe somewhere they call what they do a hypothesis; but what is the, in essence, difference. Apparently, you just want to play word games rather than actual concepts and facts.

Dr. Harrison, NOTHING you have said explains why deaths reported to VAERS have massively increased in 2021. You’re just avoiding the issue by saying things like “The CDC has dedicated teams that monitor VAERS and any serious reported adverse events like heart attacks are thoroughly investigated, including obtaining medical records.” Please tell us what papers this “dedicated team” has written to explain the massive increase in death reports from COVID-19 vaccines–if any. At this point I am assuming there aren’t any due to no one on this page producing any.

@ ALL

I was at Costco today getting new tires. Had a nice conversation going with a couple of elderly men waiting like myself. Discussed COVID, etc. A woman nearby without a mask on butted in and said it was just a plot for the arch criminal Dr. Fauci to make tons of money. I asked her what she based her claim on. Her answer was “everyone knows.” Tried to find out if social media, particular news source, etc.. She refused. Not the first time I’ve come across such people. Not mass hysteria; but social media, echo chambers, certain news outlets, if followed by large numbers of people who automatically believe one or two sources, don’t do their own homework and/or don’t have the minimal skills to do so, and voila, we have a huge problem. Worse is that once they believe something, for many of them, if you try to explain with science they automatically designate you part of some conspiracy, not necessarily an organized one, just fellow travelers. Not psychologically unusual. Cognitive dissonance research finds that once people make up their minds, thinking reasoned; but usually just not, almost impossible to change, even if ends up hurting them. Excellent book by two well-respected social psychologists:

Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson. “Mistakes were made (but not by me!): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts.”

Very informative; but also a great read!

I guess … I consider that vaccines contaminate the “essence”. I mean, at the root of my antivaccine status is living with the aftermath of vaccine injury but there’s more. I see the immune system as a baked pie in a pie tin. If you want something different than what it came with, you have to remove a piece to put in a new piece. You want a piece of influenza immunity, so you take a piece of your pie out to make room & you may have removed a slice that provides resistance to covid. Remove susceptibility to Polio but add increased risk to sSV0 cancers.

Kinda leaves you with a gross pie. Like Quiche mixed in with Key Lime, next to a slice of Calzone, next to Strawberry Rhubarb. To me, the mRNA isn’t nearly the issue, than the fact that t’s a vaccine is.

It has more to do with health than it does to “purity”. Purity isn’t synonymous with healthy. Genetically speaking it’s almost the opposite. I hope I do have a lot of multicultural & ethnically diverse grandchildren. Preferably from partners to my kids who come from less-vaccinated regions of the world.

Seriously ? Immune system mounts defense against separate antigens. Amount of possible antigens is astronomical.
And, btw, vaccines do not cause autism. Your last theory was that vaccines cause autism only schoolchildren

@ Aarno,

No, my theory is that vaccine-damaged microglia cells resulting in abnormal synaptic pruning manifests as autism in toddlers.

And that vaccine-damaged microglia cells resulting in abnormal synaptic pruning manifests as Schizophrenia in young adults.

And that vaccine-damaged microglia cells resulting in abnormal synaptic pruning manifests as Alzheimer’s in ageing adults.

Christine, that “theory” barely even rises to the level of a hypothesis. I have two questions.
1) What is the mechanism by which vaccines damage microglia?
2) How is it possible for the damage to occur in a way that manifests as three different illnesses at three different times?

@Christine Kincaid
This is repetitive, but let us go on:
Amyloid plaques form first, and microglia try to clean up thing (one functions of immune system:
Grathwohl, S., Kälin, R., Bolmont, T. et al. Formation and maintenance of Alzheimer’s disease β-amyloid plaques in the absence of microglia. Nat Neurosci 12, 1361–1363 (2009). https://doi.org/10.1038/nn.2432
There is no aluminium in plaques:
Landsberg, J., McDonald, B. & Watt, F. Absence of aluminium in neuritic plaque cores in Alzheimer’s disease. Nature 360, 65–68 (1992). https://doi.org/10.1038/360065a0
There is again about vaccines and autism:
Hviid A, Hansen JV, Frisch M, Melbye M. Measles, Mumps, Rubella Vaccination and Autism: A Nationwide Cohort Study. Ann Intern Med. 2019 Apr 16;170(8):513-520. doi: 10.7326/M18-2101. Epub 2019 Mar 5. PMID: 30831578.
You seems to think that only vaccines cause cyokines. It is not so:
K., Croen, L., Yoshida, C. et al. Autism with intellectual disability is associated with increased levels of maternal cytokines and chemokines during gestation. Mol Psychiatry 22, 273–279 (2017). https://doi.org/10.1038/mp.2016.77
Quite logical, because most brain development happens during gestation.
Autistic and neurotypical brains have very many differences:
Courchesne E. Brainstem, cerebellar and limbic neuroanatomical abnormalities in autism. Curr Opin Neurobiol. 1997 Apr;7(2):269-78. doi: 10.1016/s0959-4388(97)80016-5. Erratum in: Curr Opin Neurobiol 1997 Aug;7(4):568. PMID: 9142760.
MRI gives similar results:
Brambilla P, Hardan A, di Nemi SU, Perez J, Soares JC, Barale F. Brain anatomy and development in autism: review of structural MRI studies. Brain Res Bull. 2003 Oct 15;61(6):557-69. doi: 10.1016/j.brainresbull.2003.06.001. PMID: 14519452.
It is definitely not just synaptic pruning.
And vaccines does not trigger autism, either:
Jain A, Marshall J, Buikema A, Bancroft T, Kelly JP, Newschaffer CJ. Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism. JAMA. 2015;313(15):1534–1540. doi:10.1001/jama.2015.3077
I wait your link about vaccines and schizophrenia. Meanwhile, some common sense.
Mental illnesses have been around very long time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethlem_Royal_Hospital
There have been many lunacy acts to handle them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunacy_(Ireland)_Act_1821
Dementia praecox, precursor of schizophrenia, was defined 1891.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dementia_praecox

Aarno

“Amount of possible antigens is astronomical.”

What the hell does this mean?

The body immune system can become confused and react to everything in sight, but that is exceedingly rare.

Did you make a mistake and mean the amount of possible antibodies formed against a specific antigen is astronomical? In that case the immune system does have limits, and the limits are reduced as one gets older, hence the poor immune response of those over 65. Antibody formation is not astronomical.

And somehow this leads you to talk of Autism. I knew at least one person would scream “Vaccine!!! Autism!! ack!!! Vaccine!!!!”

Usually it is Denice.

Julian

Since no one knows why microglia decide to prune or not prune synapses, one thought as to what might initiate the process is as good as another at this point.

Why don’t you bring forward your own thoughts on what might initiate synaptic pruning by microglia?

Christine’s idea was not formulated as a hypothesis, and your questions are silly and meant only as harrassment.

How might vaccines cause damage at different ages causing different diseases? Well, people get various vaccines over their entire lifetime. What may not cause cell damage at one point in life, might cause damage at a later point in life due to reduce system functioning.

Though I do not believe microglia are involved in Alzheimer’s Disease. They are involved in Epilepsy, but by the process of not pruning excessive synapses.

@Aelxa, your response to my question “What is the mechanism by which vaccines damage microglia?” is just handwaving. Why vaccines? As for your question, genetics looks to be the best answer.
Re:

Christine’s idea was not formulated as a hypothesis…

Yes it was. “My theory” and three theorems.

“Less vaccinated regions of the world?” You mean parts of the world where diseases are endemic and infant and child mortality rates are sky high?

@ Lawrence

Right on Lawrence! ! !

Measles alone kills literally 100s of thousands in developing nations and where polio vaccinations stopped, vaccinators killed, Pakistan and Afghanistan, cases of polio paralysis.

Applause!

Right, let’s all go back to living with Nature and gaining only Natural immunity!

@ Lawrence,

Yes exactly. They don’t have high mortality due to a lack of vaccines, they have high mortality due to lack of clean drinking water & sanitation, along with IVF & medications.

Countries like Rwanda, Ghana & Botswana all have higher vaccine uptake (95%-98%) than we do. (94%)

Countries like Pakistan, Nigeria & Ethiopia would be ideal because they only have vaccine uptake from 34%-70%.

From https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/measles :

Before the introduction of measles vaccine in 1963 and widespread vaccination, major epidemics occurred approximately every 2–3 years and measles caused an estimated 2.6 million deaths each year.

More than 140 000 people died from measles in 2018 – mostly children under the age of 5 years, despite the availability of a safe and effective vaccine.

During 2000– 2018, measles vaccination prevented an estimated 23.2 million deaths. Global measles deaths have decreased by 73% from an estimated 536 000 in 2000 to 142,000 in 2018.

@Cristine Kincaid Actually in Rwanda life expectancy was 69 and in Pakistan 66. You would notice it goes down an epidemic hit.
Clear water helps only with pathogens spreading through oral fecal route. You would notice that SARS CoV2 spreads very well in US, regardless of hygiene.

Narad

Look at the Military Times headline from a week ago……

“About a third of military have taken the COVID-19 vaccine”

So that means only 33&1/3% of the military has had a COVID vaccine, even less than the 40% I wrote previously.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “I see the immune system as a baked pie in a pie tin. If you want something different than what it came with, you have to remove a piece to put in a new piece.”

Really? How about an attenuated/weakened virus. I have friends who are Type 2 diabetics. Once-in-a-while they will have a very small piece of pie, enjoy it by chewing slowly and savoring. In essence, getting just a little sugar. Well, one can look at an attenuated virus as similar. In both below danger threshold for the body. And just as too much sugar dangerous for a diabetic, a natural virus can be dangerous, something you ignore. I wonder how you would have felt if one of your children got measles, ended up hospitalized, perhaps with permanent damage, e.g., deafness, or even died?

As for SV40, found in polio vaccine for one or two years; but extensive studies have found little to no evidence of its causing cancer. However, given that I have known polio victims, starting in elementary school, if I had been a parent and was told that a vaccine exists that can prevent polio; but may have a minuscule possibility of causing cancer in 40 years, I would not hesitate to get it for my child. And, in fact, psychological studies show the vast majority of people makes decisions based on imminent danger not distant danger. And I also would think that 40 years from now they might have a good treatment for the rare type of cancer that SV40 might cause.

And it is typical of you and others like you to go back to the beginning. Well, in 1938 100s of people died from a sulfa drug, one which is still used today for infections. I won’t go into the details; but based on how you look at things, we wouldn’t have what WHO includes in its essential drugs formulary. We also wouldn’t have heart transplants, since first few suffered and died shortly afterwards. Etc. Etc.

So, why are you this way? You claim to be an RN and claim that at the outset of the current pandemic you knew it was real and went out and bought plenty of N-95 masks, etc. So, aside from vaccines, you seem to be intelligent. I can think of three reasons:

(1) Parents often feel guilty if child born with problems, whether they actually did anything, e.g., smoking, drinking, or led as healthy a life as possible. So, how to alleviate such guilt? Simple, blame something else, in this case, a vaccine.
(2) In psychology, people often prefer to be to be treated negatively, as opposed to being invisible. So, you may be a frustrated lonely person (one can be lonely even if surrounded by “friends”) and, thus, by commenting on a blog where the overwhelming majority of followers think you are both wrong and rigidly unopen to real dialogue, at least you feel people recognize your existence.
(3) Finally, you may just be another troll, simply posting to irritate people.

And, maybe some combination of the above.

While I have strong sympathy for the loss of a child, doesn’t mean I allow the parent to potentially harm others children by promoting unscience, by claiming absolute certainty. Sincerely sorry about loss of infant; but you are just one of too many despicable people, that is, people who refuse to even consider they may be wrong.

As I’ve written before, based on your absolute certainty, stop making a fool of yourself on websites such as this is and join some religious sect.

@ Joel:

However, given that I have known polio victims, starting in elementary school, if I had been a parent and was told that a vaccine exists that can prevent polio; but may have a minuscule possibility of causing cancer in 40 years, I would not hesitate to get it for my child.”

Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pediatric Medulloblastoma & Adolescent Osteosarcoma rates quadrupled by the late 1970s, from 1950.

And no, I don’t need my existence validated with negative attention & I’m not a troll. I’m here for a reason & my contributions will be valued at some point. I know it’s not that time yet.

And, I’m not religious.

@Christine:

Pediatric Medulloblastoma & Adolescent Osteosarcoma rates quadrupled by the late 1970s, from 1950.

Where is your evidence that vaccination programs caused this?
You are overlooking an obvious alternative explanation. From the 1950s onwards, cigarette smoking skyrocketed. Back then, the dangers of secondhand smoke were not known. Adults smoking around children is a much sounder explanation than vaccines, especially when you haven’t proposed a mechanism of causation.

I’m here for a reason & my contributions will be valued at some point. I know it’s not that time yet.

Where are we going?

Planet 10!

When are going to get there?

Real soon!

@Cristine Kincaid A study about SV40 and cancer:
Olin P, Giesecke J. Potential exposure to SV40 in polio vaccines used in Sweden during 1957: no impact on cancer incidence rates 1960 to 1993. Dev Biol Stand. 1998;94:227-33. PMID: 9776244.
A citation:
“During the same period, overall age standardised incidence rates in males of brain cancers increased from 9.0 to 13.1 and of pleural mesotheliomas from 0.2 to 2.1 per 100,000. None of these increased rates was associated with the exposed cohorts.”

Julian Frost

Smoking does not cause either of those cancers.

They did studies that showed that it did not matter if there was smoking in the house or not.

Trying googling “pubmed and place disease here and smoking” and you will find you are incorrect.

As for SV40, studies found the children and grandchildren, etc of people who got the SV40 contaminated vaccine had SV40 in their bodies. These means that virus was passed down to the following generations.

Many cancers are found to contain SV40, but since cancers can concentrate substances, whether the SV40 causes the cancer is questioned. That does not prove that SV40 did not cause the cancer, as we know many cancers are caused by viruses. An example is HPV causing Cervical Cancer.

But smoking is not a cause of those two cancers, and if it was the cause, or a cause… with the massive decrease in smoking in the US since 1970, then the incidence of those two cancers would have gone down. Instead they have gone up.

Julian

Cigarette smoking went through the roof in 1913 with the introduction of advertising. Camel cigarettes were the first big advertiser. Then in 1918 cigarettes were added to GI rations at General Pershings request, they got cigarettes with every meal. Young males were introduced to killing and smoking at the same time. What a combo.

Cigarette smoking from 1950 to 1970 did not go up appreciably. In fact around 1953 was the high point of per capital consumption of pounds of tobacco. Then after advertising was curtailed on TV and magazines in 1970, smoking has decreased steadily since 1970.

If cigarette smoking was a real cause of childhood cancers, then it should have increased dramatically after 1913, with 1953 being the highest incidence.

“I see the immune system as a baked pie in a pie tin. If you want something different than what it came with, you have to remove a piece to put in a new piece. You want a piece of influenza immunity, so you take a piece of your pie out to make room & you may have removed a slice that provides resistance to covid.”

Unfortunately this impeccable logic doesn’t apply to when Christine “learns” a new bit of antivaccine nonsense. It doesn’t dislodge any of the old antivax foolishness from her memory.

I see antivaxers as wearing an ill-fitting pie tin on their heads, in a desperate attempt to keep facts from penetrating.

I was struggling to get past Christine’s baked pie analogy of the immune system. It in no shape or form resembles any working model of the immune system. I know that has never stopped Christine in the past, but I am left wondering, why this analogy?

Personally when I bake pies, I don’t take slices out and substitute them with slices from other pies. I am left wondering about the state of Christine’s kitchen and her pie slice collection.

“If you want something different than what it came with, you have to remove a piece to put in a new piece.”

This is so mind-boggingly ignorant I don’t know where to begin. You “take in” things in every day – environmental, bacterial, your food, your water, and on and on and on.

The only way to live as you suggest is to be a test tube baby that never left the lab.

The human is a pretty darn robust product of evolution, with certain weaknesses, of course.

@Aelxa I wrote that COVID vaccines are not invented by holocaust monger, because they save lives in Israel. How this is bigotry ? It is a fact. A holocaust monger would not save Jews. I can add that for same reason they are not a Jewish plot either.
You write that you do not want to be part of COVID vaccine test group. Clinical trials, long since done, did had a test group. Hundred millions have vaccinated after that. Another example of antivax attitude.
You do not understand difference between all incidences and incidences in an interval. These are very different things.

You obviously do not understand the definition of “Holocaust monger”…….. which means a person who is spreading rumors of a Holocaust having occurred. Neo-Nazis use this term all the time to refer to Jews and those they call “Jewish sympathizers”, since the Neo-nazis deny that the Holocaust ever occurred and the talk of a Holocaust is just Jewish propaganda.

“Holocaust denier” is a person who says the Holocaust never occurred. And is applied to people who are Neo-nazis.

Granted you are not a native English speaker, but your comments, like saying all people should be forced to take the COVID-19 vaccines, are pure “do as I order” Nazi thought.

And I perfectly understand interval which is a specified length of time and interval incidence which is the amount of incidences within that specific time period. Expected interval incidence is the number of incidences expected to occur during that specific time period

By the way, those were the numbers among vaccinated individuals on page 21. When you expect ZERO cases and get 19 cases….then something is not kosher. And to say it does not ring the bell that something is wrong, seems way, way off base. And to have multiple different clotting disorders occurring and the incidences are far beyond the expected cases should be ringing alarms.

They should have been checking further to see if the vaccinated individuals with clotting problems had acquired active COVID-19 infections which could cause clotting problems, or if it were possible they did not have active COVID-19 and the clotting was possibly from the vaccine. Notice the word “possibly”. It means that it should be checked out to see what might be causing the problem.

The whole point of the VAERS system is to help indicate possible problems occurring with a specific vaccine that would require further investigation.

But when you say having 19 cases when there is zero expected is not significant, then there is a problem with your reporting system.

Perhaps you need to check out how vaccines are approved and licensed. These vaccines are being given under an Emergency Use Authorization, the full testing was NOT done as specified in the licensing procedures.

I prefer not to be part of any testing of these vaccines, no matter how many millions are in the testing group.

Especially when you see older people dying much earlier from their pre-existing conditions than they should be dying. To claim they are older and would have died anyway is facious. We are all going to die sometime anyway, so why use any vaccine is the logical endpoint of that brand of thinking. That is a spectrum of thought that is fruitless.

The truth is people over 60 have an extremely poor response to most all vaccines. Even in naturally acquired COVID-19 infection those under 60 get an immune response that protects 80%. Over 60 and they get an immune response that protects only 47% of them.

The published vaccine efficacy rates are not real life numbers. They do not give the vaccine and then after two weeks expose the person to COVID-19 to see if the vaccine works. Which is normally part of testing a vaccine, at least in the animal studies.

In fact, in is only now in the UK that they are planning to do this exposure testing as they have a effective treatment to treat the volunteers who do come down with COVID-19.

Aelxa:

Vitamin D is produced naturally in people whio get out of their basements and into the sunlight. You dont have to pay a corporation to manufacture it for you. But if natural sunlight scarea you, I encourage you to keep living on chemicals.

@ NA

I was a long-time vegetarian, then a vegan. I eat an extremely healthy diet and do lots of exercise, e.g., walk dog twice daily mile each time, since gym closed due to pandemic, 30 minutes day on stationary bike, and some weights; but I do take a few supplements, not mega-doses. I don’t go outdoors very much and as we age our skin absorbs precursors to vitamin D less. So, I take B12, only vitamin vegans can’t get, iron because I am blood donor, and twice daily 1000 ius (25 mg) of vitamin D3. My annual physical which includes labs always finds my iron levels and vitamin D3 levels in healthy range. Our bodies function with homeostasis, a narrow range of various vitamins, minerals, pH, etc. Too little poses problems and too much as well. So, those who believe megadoses, especially of fat soluble vitamins such as vitamin D are at risk. Water soluble vitamins such as vitamin C less risky, just what bodies doesn’t almost immediately use gives one vitamin C enriched urine. As the saying goes: Moderation in all things.

NA

If you bother to check, most people in the Northern Hemisphere live in places where they do not get enough sunshine year round. Add to that the massive use of sunscreens, most people are very low in Vitamin D. Then there is Winter where they stay bundled up.

With the lockdown this past year people were encouraged to stay inside as much as possible.

Personally, too much sun exposure gives me Migraines, so even as a child I did not sunbathe or get a tan. I have to stay covered up and wear a hat, it is much better than having a raging Migraine for days.

Taking a Vitamin D3 supplement is not the most ideal solution but it is better than losing bone mass since the body needs adequate Vitamin D to rebuild bone which is an on-going process.

The proof is there that the patients with the lowest Vitamin D levels are the most serious cases of COVID-19. To avoid a manufactured pill when you need more Vitamin D3 is silly.

But your whole point was to merely to imply that I live in a basement.

And if a Vitamin supplement is so very bad then any vaccine, even the COVID shot, must be strictly taboo for you. You must get your antibodies from the real disease instead. Watch out for that Lockjaw, it is a killer.

@ NWO Reporter

You write: “Dr. Harrison the CDC says themselves that VAERS monitors vaccine safety: “To date, Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) has not detected patterns in cause of death that would indicate a safety problem with COVID-19 vaccines.” But I agree, we should have seen more robust analyses following VAERS detection of a massive increase in deaths reported from COVID-19 shots. Instead, VAERS apparently says all is well.”

As I wrote, CDC has dedicated teams who investigate ALL VAERS reported serious adverse events and I explained why there has been an increase in reporting, so I’m tired of people like you, trolls who post on websites, rigid in their beliefs or just unhappy; but want to irritate, bait, etc. others who actually are trying to share and develop a scientific understanding of various medical related subjects.

Again, you ignore what I have written. VAERS is only one of a number of CDC post-FDA approval monitoring programs for vaccines and all scientifically advanced nations have their own systems.

I will just add that besides actual follow-ups of vaccines, including VAERS, which as I wrote, has dedicated teams who do thorough analyses of each report of a serious adverse reaction, we have extensive knowledge of how vaccines affect our bodies, e.g., knowledge of immunology, microbiology, etc. and actual lab studies, including from cell studies, through animal studies, through human studies, e.g., blood samples, physical exams, etc. As I posted above, 10s of thousands of peer-reviewed medical journal articles going back 50 years or more.

So, keep ignoring what I write and making a fool of your self, just one of several who post or have posted on this site.

By the way, what does NWO stand for? Nitwit, Wacko, Obnoxious???

By the way, what does NWO stand for? Nitwit, Wacko, Obnoxious???

“New World Order,” Joel. Her seemingly moribund Web site should tell you all you need to know, assuming the ghastly design doesn’t burn out your eyes.

@Aelxa There were phase 2/3 clinical trial for COVID vaccines, like:
https://www.fda.gov/media/144416/download.
Trials were not suspended.
Holocaust monger is racist ? It means nazi, a quite common insult. You should actually comment the issue here: There are very few new COVID cases in Israel:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/
Perhaps, firstly, vaccine works, and secondly, herd immunity exists.
All coronavirus vaccines were on development phase before SARS CoV2.

Aarno

Herd immunity does not work for an airborne disease.

Measles still spreads even with 93% of the US population vaccinated. An airborne disease passes right over the herd members that are vaccinated or immune. Then it infects those not vaccinated or immune.

Learn the theory of herd immune as it was originally postulated. The bastardization of the theory of “Herd Immunity” is rampant.

COVID-19 is an airborne disease if you bother to check the latest information.

The vaccines are not approved, so are not licensed for use. They are all being used under Emergancy Use Authorization. They are being used DESPITE the testing not being done as required by law.

You are dense.

@Aelxa:

Herd immunity does not work for an airborne disease.

Yes it does. Even before vaccines, this was shown. Every few years there would be an epidemic of measles. Immunologically naive individuals would gain immunity and rates would drop for the next few years. Then, once enough children who had not been exposed to measles were born, another epidemic.
That you make such an easily refutable claim speaks volumes.

Julian

But those were natural immune from getting the disease, that caused “herd immunity”.

In the Age of Vaccination we are dealing with a different situation.

The antibodies from vaccination are not the same quality nor the same quantity as those from a natural Measles infection, so “herd immunity” does not work with even today’s 93% Measles vaccinated rate.

It is like comparing apples and watermelon.

There are only a few of us naturally immune people left in the US population, then all you have are the vaccinated which are still susceptible to the disease over time.

@Aelxa:

The antibodies from vaccination are not the same quality nor the same quantity as those from a natural Measles infection, so “herd immunity” does not work with even today’s 93% Measles vaccinated rate.

Patently false. After mass vaccination campaigns began in the 1960s, the Measles rate began to fall. When my parents were children, Measles was viewed as inevitable. When I was at school, nobody I knew got the Measles. And when a Measles outbreak occurs, it almost invariably occurs in an undervaccinated area and has an unvaccinated individual as the patient zero.
Vaccination works, and herd immunity exists.

Julian

To prove Measles vaccination is not that effective….

From Clinical Microbiology Review April 1995 “Measles Control in the United State: problems in the past and challenges in the future”

“Abstract
Elimination of indigenous measles from the United States has been a public priority since 1978. To assess the progress made toward this goal, we review the epidemiology of measles from 1963 to the present. From the 1970s through early into the recent measles epidemic, the majority of measles cases were in highly vaccinated, school-age children. This was due primarily to a 1 to 5% primary measles-mumps-rubella vaccine failure rate.”

Notice the words “the majority of Measles cases were in highly vaccinated school-age children”.

If “herd immunity” worked, then those few 1 to 5% would not have gotten the Measles, the rest of the herd should have protected them. The US has about a 93% vaccination rate for Measles, and this is far above the 40% immunity rate that the theory of “herd immunity” stated was necessary to achieve “herd immunity”. And that original theory was based on natural immunity from having had the Measles, an immunity that dies not weaken or wear off.

As the US has no indigenous Measles reservoir, all original Measles cases come from outside the US from travelers bringing it into the US from foreign countries.

@ Aelxa

You write: “Aarno
“Holocaust mongers”
Wow, we have a racist on the list.
As a person whose parents are German and who had family members like my uncles in the Nazi Germany military… I can assure you the Concentration camps and the Holocaust was quite real.”

Aarno Syvänensays:
April 22, 2021 at 1:22 am
@Aelxa I wrote that COVID vaccines are not invented by holocaust monger, because they save lives in Israel. How this is bigotry ? It is a fact. A holocaust monger would not save Jews

As a Jew who literally from an early age has known Holocaust survivors, had repeating nightmares and read dozens of books, 100s of articles, attended numerous seminars, watched probably most documentaries, and lived in Israel for six months, you are absolutely NUTS accusing Aarno of being a racist. What he wrote was the exact opposite. Your comments are usually dead wrong; but this one tells me you may be delusional. If so, I sincerely recommend you seek professional help. I think you are meshuganah (Yiddish for nuts).

Joel

It is only Neo-nazis who use the term “Holocaust monger”, the definition of which is a person who spreads rumors of a Holocaust NOT having occurred.

If he used the term “Holocaust denier” then I would believe he was not a Nazi.

One branch of my family was Jewish and most of them died in Concentration Camps, and so I am quite aware of the meaning of common Jewish words. I lived in Jewish neighborhoods and remember seeing the tattoos on the forearms of store owners like the lady who ran the chocolate store, it was quite visible as she wore short-sleeves. I patronized Jewish-owned businesses like the bakery and the deli, etc. I speak German but we used alot of Yiddish words in my family.

Joel

Norman Finkelstein calls Amercan-Jewish organization leaders “Holocaust mongers”.

Do you really think he is calling them people that deny the Holocaust happened if that were what Holocaust monger meant?

No, he thinks they are using the Holocaust to get further reparations that Finkelstein does not believe they should get.

People need to get their definitions correct.

A Labour candidate in England even lost her election over postings that were about Holocaust mongers and had Neo-Nazi thought.

J&J’s vaccine will be administered in EU states with a warning about very rare side effects. ( The Guardian)

My dearest brother and sister sceptics:

You are doing a terrific job demolishing anti-vax proselytisation SO, let me tell you about what I’ve been thinking –
We have trolls who rest upon their alleged expertise in medicine but object to all or nearly all vaccines. They claim this because of their education, training and experience in hospitals and everyday living.
NOW- we can divide this up neatly into two aspects- education and training vs experience of any sort
I rather doubt that anyone can attribute their present day anti-vax beliefs to their education or training: as Orac writes even doctors go anti-vax DESPITE their extensive education and training.
If a person works with severely ill patients or newborns, I imagine they were NOT instructed to avoid vaccines at all costs. In fact, it might be quite the opposite- people with serious cardiac or pulmonary conditions and newborn infants are especially vulnerable and need protection against VPDs. Can anyone cite an educational institution that recommends AGAINST vaccines for these patients? Or hospital training? Similarly, Wakefield, Palevsky, Gordon or Sears didn’t get thes e ideas in medical school, residency et al…

So, where did they get them?
I venture that DESPITE education and training of any degree, they were still affected by pseudoscience and CTs like people who have NO or little medically oriented background. In fact, their background may encourage them to think themselves competent enough- WRONGLY- to dismiss worlwide SBM consensus and accumulated practical considerations. Doesn’t our friend, Dr Jay, say his 30 years experience taught him otherwise ( paraphrase)?

THUS, you can’t call yourself an expert or claim special privilege because of your education and training when what you believe strongly contradicts everything you learned. They are brave, paradigm-shifting mavericks regardless of their educational level, relying upon “inside information” or personal, solitary observation that runs contrary to. research and long term observation by experts. They place themselves above those mere mortals.
What say you?
.

@ Denise Walter

Christine Kincaid claims to be a nurse; but several of the other “trolls”, e.g., Scott Allen, Aelxa, NWO Reporter, etc. have given NO indication they have any medical training, not even read an intro book on immunology, etc. So, what they believe doesn’t contradict their training, just displays their foolish delusional belief system, especially when, besides Orac, various commenters have literally debunked their beliefs and they ignore, either because just trolling to irritate or because more a religious-type belief.

Dr. Harrison, please provide links to the papers, if any, the CDC’s “dedicated team” has written to explain the massive increase in VAERS death reports. Surely at least one of them has addressed it somewhere, somehow? Or at least provide some kind of data to support your contention the increase is not due to unusually dangerous COVID-19 vaccines.

I just ran a VAERS report, and 76% of all vaccine deaths of seniors ever reported to VAERS in its entire 30-year history were reported in the last 4 months, in connection with the COVID-19 shots. That’s HUGE. Surely one of the numerous purported vaccine experts or members of the CDC’s “dedicated team” has made some formal attempt to explain it. Or is it only me?

So which is worse? The one with some education who persists in spite of it or the one without education who seeks to educate others?

Quackwatch ( Jarvis) has an article, Why Medical Professionals Become Quacks illustrating why particular medical workers are especially prone to woo
Also Barrett [Quackery] 28 Ways to Spot It.

I just ran [heh] a VAERS report, and 76% of all vaccine deaths of seniors ever reported to VAERS in its entire 30-year history were reported in the last 4 months, in connection with the COVID-19 shots.

If one actually uses COVID vaccination as a search criterion, there are zero results.

<

blockquote>Query Criteria:
Date Report Completed: Nov., 2020 to Apr., 2021
Date Report Received: Dec., 2000 to Apr., 2021
Event Category: Death
State / Territory: The United States/Territories/Unknown
Symptoms: COVID-19 IMMUNISATION
Vaccine Products: COVID19 VACCINE (COVID19)
Group By: VAERS ID; Vaccine Type; Age
Show Totals: False
Show Zero Values: Disabled

Joel

Well, amazing that I have no medical training yet I still pass all the Medscape CME tests with flying colors.

I guess any person without training can do so, so an MD is a worthless degree, if I know as much as the MDs who take those tests for CME credits.

Denice

Ah yes, QuackWatch… Barrett’s claims that Fibromyalgia is a fake disease, and has been saying so since the 1980s. And all the doctors recognizing it as real and attempting to treat it a Quacks.

Half the stuff on QuackWatch is nonsense.

Christine

Denice and friends are not skeptics, they are most certainly not skeptics when it comes to vaccines. Perhaps she does not know the definition of “skeptic” is.

They are most definitely worshipers of Vaccines.

So the Branch Deniceians definitely works as a name for them. Reading the Scripture of Orac. In the Church of No Backtalk Allowed.

Joel

You know what the funny thing is, the last personal email I got from Medscape in reference to my CME credits said Dear Dr……. even though when I filled out the form to get Medscape emails I clearly said I was a Respiratory Therapist.

Denice

If no doctor went against their medical training we would still be getting bled to treat disease and surgeons would be going from cutting off limbs to delivering babies without washing their hands or changing their clothes.

Please, all medical advancement is due to someone saying there is something wrong in what we are doing, we need to change. Sometimes the changes are very beneficial and sometimes they are damaging, like the H1N1 vaccine.

“Place themselves above mere mortals”.

Questioning a treatment is not doing any such thing, it is foolish to be completely accepting of anything that comes out of medicine, which like all fields is always evolving and never static.

I will continue to question and observe and decide what medical treatments I will take.

Medical professionals are not god or all-knowing. I have had doctors tell me there was nothing wrong with me when I was sick, and I had to insist on tests like IGF-1 that was only 29, and the doctor sent me a letter that is was “only slightly low”. He had no idea it was a dangerous level that I could die from, but I knew it was so I took it to my Endocrinologist who immediately hospitalized me and put me on Human Growth Hormone.

When someone says I do not know medicine I laugh, since I was the person who had diagnosed my medical problem multiple times and had to insist on the testing to confirm. I have two apology letters from physicians who put into writing that they were sorry they had not listened more carefully to me.

Meanwhile, I am watching and reading about these various COVID-19 vaccines, and will wait quite a while longer before coming to a final decision on whether to ever get one.

@ NWO Reporter

From Vaxopedia, who ran the VAERS stats, saving me the time and effort:

“Many more than a typical year that didn’t include an extra 113 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines being given. . . But the simple fact that the majority of those extra vaccines this year were given to folks who are over age 65 years does give a clue as to why we are seeing more reports of deaths in VAERS. Mortality rates naturally increase as you get older.”

So, I left out one additional explanation, simply far more seniors getting and the older the person the higher percentage getting COVID compared to flu vaccine, etc and at higher ages, duh, people die.

From CDC: “Over 211 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through April 19, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 3,486 reports of death (0.0016%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. CDC and FDA physicians review each case report of death as soon as notified and CDC requests medical records to further assess reports. A review of available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records revealed no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths. CDC and FDA will continue to investigate reports of adverse events, including deaths, reported to VAERS.”

However, you linked to a report of the Advisor Committee on Immunization Practices which made quite clear that deaths have been evaluated. The report included the other CDC vaccine monitoring sites; but you want to focus on VAERS, typical antiscoience, antivaxxer.

So, your percentage probably correct; but who cares? Some police criminal investigations can go through dozens of suspects and some just one or two. What is important is that they actually do a thorough investigation and not get an innocent person indicted or let a guilty go free, which happens; however, with VAERS and CDC, medical info better than many types of criminal evidence. If a 85 year olds medical record show heart disease, diabetes, etc. and, perhaps, a previous heart attack or stroke, etc. And as I wrote; but you ignore, we know how vaccines work in the body. We understand mRNA. We know that the S-Spike Protein is just a piece of protein, just like if one cuts off a finger, can get a finger print; but finger harmless, S-Spike Protein not attached to virus is a finger with a print that our immune systems can recognize. And we had large clinical trials. The one I was in had a large percentage of seniors, over 65. So did Pfizer’s.

By the way, you do know that VAERS has had reports from Mickey Mouse, reports by someone who abused/seriously harmed child trying to blame vaccines. Anyone, unscreened can make a report.

I am not going to waste my time trying to find a specific statement by CDC why reports have increased. What is important is did they investigate and they did.

It is obvious that if I found such a report that you would then find something else to challenge me on. Quite simply you think you understand vaccines and safety better than not just me; but experts around the world. So, you are just another troll, not trying to contribute anything, just trying to annoy.

My reasons for increased reporting are simply logical based on antivaccination groups, etc. increasing.

If you want to read a great book that literally shows how a major player in the current anti vaccination movement was and is a fraud, Andrew Wakefield, read: Brian Deer (2020). The Doctor Who Fooled The World. Johns Hopkins University Press.

Reference:

CDC (2020 Apr 20). Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination. Available at: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html

Vincent Iannelli (2021 Mar 18). Has There Been an Increase in Reports of Deaths in VAERS? Vaxopedia. Available at: Reference:
Vincent Iannelli (2021 Mar 18). Has There Been an Increase in Reports of Deaths in VAERS?

And I’ll ask again, what does NWO stand for? Nutjob, Wackjob, Obnoxious???

@ Joel

“And I’ll ask again, what does NWO stand for? Nutjob, Wackjob, Obnoxious???”

Must say I do enjoy reading you !

“Arrogant as a Frenchman”

Yup, I remember visiting France. Filthy as a Frenchman was what we said. The hotels had filthy sheets and we had to strip the beds and demand clean linens and blankets.

There was trash everywhere, and when we got a flat tire no one helped. In England a huge lorry turned around on a major road and parked behind us and changed our tire when we got a flat. They saw we had a rental car and wanted to help. In France you could probably lie down in the road having a heart attack and be ignored.

I am amazed the Rothschilds survived WW2, France was big on turning in their Jews.

France, a country that I would take a long, long ride around to avoid driving through a second time.

The SS France was a beautiful ship though, shame the French government scrapped it and the program that keep it afloat.

@ Aelxa

Oh! There we go again! The reductio ad antisemitismus.

How surprising…

(BTW: as I keep saying: no need to bash the French like an amateur. Leave it to us: we’re professional French-bashers in France. It’s 24/7 bashing all year round. You’re clearly out of your league.)

Oh! BTW… do you have nice and kind words for all the other countries around that more or less screwed up in the 20th century ? Just to name a few: France, England, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Germany, each in their own specific way. We may go further east if you want…

And when did the US got engaged in the war ? 1941 ? Yeah… thought so.

See ? Very easy to make stupid points on very important matters such as WW2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-lGrJrRoHA

This man is Pr. von Zimmel, a high ranking nazi official. Or rather, a former official.
American technology…
Nowadays, he’s named Ottavio Pelauerdo, and he organises wrestling events in the whole of South America.
Clever.
Yes, but he recently started blackmailing France.
And we must stop him ?
No, we decided to pay.
Well, that’s rather uncanny !
He owns microfilms with a list of french collaborators with Nazi Germany.
His list must by mightily short !
Think again, Hubert… not everyone has your ethos of loyalty.
Come on, Armand! Didn’t the general De Gaulle claim that the whole of France was in the resistance ?
Indeed… He did… he did… he did… Indeed…

How’s that for a James Bond parody ? Leave the french bashing to the french…

@ EVERYONE about NWO Reporter

Ah, so NWO means New World Order. Explains everything. I found their website. From their About Us page:

“This website will shake the very foundation of everything you believe about the world and we prove every statement we make. It may sound crazy but we prove every claim we make. Once dismissed by cynics as a “conspiracy theory the New World Order is rapidly becoming a reality. We look at its origins, how it operates and how it affects the lives of everyone. This website serves one purpose – to prove with undeniable proof that there is a group of extremely rich “power mongers” who want to rule the world in a slave state that makes the most extreme horror movie seem pale by comparison. They call their plan the New World Order. We want to “Wake Up” as many good people as possible to try to put an end to this insanity. As crazy as this sounds everything on this website is confirmed by multiple mainstream press news reports, reputable encyclopedic references or websites of those making the claims.”

Just some of the headlines:

COVID VACCINE REACTION, HEALTH
Study: COVID-19 Vaccine Causes Certain Patients to Develop Herpes Infection

OPINIONS, US NEWS
Tucker Carlson Warns Political Actors ‘Harnessed’ Floyd’s Death to ‘Control, Change US Forever’

GOP, US NEWS
GOP Wouldn’t Help Trump In Hour Of Need But STILL Fundraising Off His Name

Elections Integrity Org Identifies 12,547 Illegal Votes Included In Georgia’s 2020 Election Results – Exceeds Margin of Victory In the State

‘Q Is the Truth,’: Lin Wood Promotes QAnon at Bible College to Cheering Crowds

I guess when I asked if NWO stood for nut job, wackjob, obnoxious, basically I was right

Wrong website, genius. The one you quoted sounds like a bunch of cointell bullshit. But I’m looking into your claim that the reason for the vast increase in VAERS death reports is because the COVID-19 shots were given primarily to seniors. Too bad you didn’t post any relevant stats, with a comparison to prior years and quantity of vaccines.

@ NWO Reporter

I guess you just don’t really read carefully. Part of the reason for the increase in VAERS death reports was both a huge increase in the number of vaccines given, far more than during flu season and that seniors were targeted. And the first roll out targeted nursing homes because, if you remember, they had the highest number of deaths from COVID-19. Iannelli did list the number: “an extra 113 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines being given.” And from CDC: “Over 211 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through April 19, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 3,486 reports of death (0.0016%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.”

So, 113 means a more than double number of vaccinated compared to flu. He links to another article of his on flu. Now, if many of these went to seniors, 65, 70, 75, 80, 85, especially at nursing homes, the number of deaths is completely normal expected. Or do you think an 80-year-old at a nursing home is NOT already at high risk of death?

Now, despite what you, in your paranoid delusions, choose to believe, add the above to an ever growing antivax movement with many well-followed websites, social media pages, etc and voila, a huge increase in VAERS reports, not the vaccine and the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices report you referred to explained this in detail.

And again, it doesn’t matter how many VAERS reports. If they were investigated thoroughly, that’s it, despite what you want to believe; but since you like working with WONDER, VAERS database, get a breakdown of deaths by age: 60-64, 65-69, 70-74, 75-79 and so on. You might also try getting a breakdown by comorbidities, e.g. Type 1 Diabetes, being treated for cancer, etc. And, perhaps, both age and comorbidities together?

I’m sure if I was to devote a lot of time and effort that someone at either CDC or FDA or the like will have written something about number of VAERS reports; but I could care less. Anyone with an open mind would accept as common sense, no need for extensive science, my and Iannelli’s explanation for the exponentially increased number of VAERS reports. Just go to Children’s Defense Fund or Age of Autism websites and read what they write about mRNA vaccines. Then find out how many followers they have. And read all of Orac’s articles debunking claim after claim made by them; but, they won’t be aware of his articles or like you will refuse to believe anything that contradicts their “religious-like” beliefs.

You write: “Wrong website, genius. The one you quoted sounds like a bunch of cointell bullshit. ”

Vincent Iannelli’s background can be found at: https://vaxopedia.org/about/
He is far more respected than you ever will be, that is, among science-based medicine types. As for calling me “genius”, thanks, but I’m not; but I am well-educated with many years of experience and you are just someone who no matter how much info I supply, will reject and request more.

As I’ve written in previous comments, the more mentally ill delusional someone is, the less capable they are of recognizing it.

However, you are much more fun that some of the other trolls since I now know for sure that you subscribe to paranoid conspiracy theories.😀

Wrong website, genius.

Ginny, the banner still has a link to “Writing & Art by Virginia Stoner,” so don’t try to pull that horseshit.

Joel

If vaccination increases life span than the US should have the longest life span on Earth.

Nope, Hong Kong at #1 has the longest life span at 85.29 years. The citizens of one of the most densely crowded cities in the World highest the longest lifespan in the World. Go figure.

Want to know the US position? The US is #46
with 79.11 years.

The US Virgin Islands is #33 with 81.17 years. And even Puerto Rico with it’s hurricane disasters affecting water and electricity supplies for years now is #38 at 80.69 years.

Go to World-o-Meter and check out who has a longer lifespan than American citizens, then ask yourself “why is that?”. Do we not have the best medical care in the world, the best food supply and the best of everything?

Even Cuba is # 45 with 79.18 years, and they are still running around in old 1950s cars without seatbelts.

@Aelxa:

If vaccination increases life span than the US should have the longest life span on Earth.

The US also has a for-profit based healthcare model that violently skews things. For somebody who is supposedly intelligent, you consistently fail to consider confounding factors.

Julian

You do not recognize when someone is talking “tongue in cheek”, do you?

Our food is crap in America, and our healthcare is pitiful unless you advocate for yourself constantly and demand better service, as you get ignored as you get older.

And vaccination is not helping at all to improve this situation, we are still at #46 and falling.

Julian

And let us not forget that people have gotten so paranoid, kids can not go out and play without strict adult supervision.

So they get placed in front of a TV or computer and become flabby mushrooms. Safe inside away from sunshine, fresh air and any possible physical activity.

our healthcare is pitiful unless you advocate for yourself constantly and demand better service

Speak for yourself. My Medicaid is terrific.

Narad

Your Medicaid is terrific?

Try to find a good physician who will take Medicaid patients.

I worked for an Internal Medicine specialist in Florida who did take a few Medicaid patients each year and it was pure charity work. Medicaid paid him $2.00 for an office visit, and the rest was written off.

No one can run a medical office when being paid $2.00 for a 30 minute OV plus chest x-rays.

Narad

You might try telling testing labs that there is no such thing as being allergic to tobacco.

health labs.com very clearly has just such a test.

And I said I was allergic to Tobacco…..not tobacco smoke. Though the smoke does trigger asthma attack in me. Try to read more carefully.

@ EVERYONE – NWO REPORTER & PARANOID CONSPIRACY THEORIES

An essay I read as an undergraduate still applies today [Richard Hofstadter (1964 Nov). The Paranoid Style in American Politics. Harper’s Magazine. Available at: https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-politics/ ] Below just some excerpts but well worth reading, only 19 pages:

“Style has more to do with the way in which ideas are believed than with the truth or falsity of their content.”

The paranoid spokesman sees the fate of conspiracy in apocalyptic terms—he traffics in the birth and death of whole worlds, whole political orders, whole systems of human values. He is always manning the barricades of civilization.

As a member of the avant-garde who is capable of perceiving the
conspiracy before it is fully obvious to an as yet unaroused public, the paranoid is a militant leader. He does not see social conflict as something to be mediated and compromised . . Since what is at stake is always a conflict between absolute good and absolute evil. . . This demand for total triumph leads to the formulation of hopelessly unrealistic goals, and since these goals are not even remotely attainable, failure constantly heightens the paranoid’s sense of frustration.

It is hard to resist the conclusion that this enemy is on many counts the projection of the self; both the ideal and the unacceptable aspects of the self are attributed to him.

One of the impressive things about paranoid literature is the
contrast between its fantasied conclusions and the almost touching
concern with factuality it invariably shows. It produces heroic strivings for evidence to prove that the unbelievable is the only thing that can be believed.

We are all sufferers from history, but the paranoid is a double sufferer, since he is afflicted not only by the real world, with the rest of us, but by his fantasies as well.”

Two books also well-worth reading:

David Aaronovitch (2010). Voodoo Histories: The Role of the Conspiracy Theory in Shaping Modern History. Riverhead Books.

David H. Bennett (1988). The Party of Fear: From Nativist Movements to the New Right in American History. The University of North Carolina Press.

re Joel’s comment:

It’s rather hilarious when a resident CT believer who advances idiosyncratic, vaccine-dependent causal theories of ASD, SMI and AD compares SBM supporters to a violent, religious cult despite having no support whatsoever for their solipsistic positions from decades of research, university curricula, media investigation and international scientific / governmental bodies.

.. .

Leonard

Though the Black Panthers were right to be paranoid about the US government and the FBI.

Paranoid thought is what gave us tRump. Beware the immigrants, they will take over the US and rape your white daughters, etc.

And as the article points out, such paranoid thought has always existed in US politics.

@ EVERYONE about NWO Reporter

He wrote: “Wrong website, genius. The one you quoted sounds like a bunch of cointell bullshit”

Note that he didn’t bother to even go to the linked website to check out the numbers and the reference list. Now knowing he subscribes to paranoid conspiracy theories, his use of cointel makes sense. Anyone or anything that disagrees with him must be part of the conspiracy.

Well, we have had and have a number of commenters who are either just trolls trying to disrupt the ongoing conversation and/or unscientific illogical types who refuse to budge regardless of what we write based on science and, of course, some of them also subscribe to paranoid conspiracy theories; but it is so nice to have one completely out in the open.😀

F68.10-I am uncertain of your meaning of of the Nazi holocaust as being perpetrated ‘honestly’, but no need try further to explain. I have many excellent histories and memoirs of the period that inform my present understandings- and it is still very difficult to grasp the enormity of the barbarity of the attempt by the Nazis at the European destruction of the Jews. Aelxa’s and many others who draw analogies between Nazis and some present day ‘foible’ know not of what they speak.

Leonard

“A present day foible”. Right that “foible”, that is Neo-Nazi fascist thought, is what brought us January 6th, 2021 and the attempt to lynch Vice-President Pence inside Congress.

The Jews were not the only people who suffered being gassed. Add gypsies, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and a slew of other minorities.

Letting the idea have free reign, that it is a minor offense, is what leaves us with Neo-Nazis free to form groups like the Proud Boys and walk down American streets with rifles and guns looking to shoot anyone who does not agree with them.

Or did you miss the Black Lives Matter protests and the police in cities letting White guys with guns keep on walking without even asking them where they were going with those rifles? Was the police action a simple “foible”?

Aelexa-there are many regimes and political bodies in history that have exerted power over peoples thoughts and actions and is certainly not only typical of the Nazis. You need to stop being so utterly ridiculous invoking Nazi analogies.

@ Leonard Sugarman

“Aelexa-there are many regimes and political bodies in history that have exerted power over peoples thoughts and actions and is certainly not only typical of the Nazis.”

Precisely. That’s my main point.

“F68.10-I am uncertain of your meaning of of the Nazi holocaust as being perpetrated ‘honestly’”

I mean that if the genocide hadn’t happened, ethnic persecution would still be perceived as routine. And, in some sense, it still is. You just have to look at Myanmar or quite a lot of other places. The nazi genocide was a severe call to reality. That no matter how you may rationalize ethnic or political persecution (which are unavoidable day-to-day facts of political life, even contemporary) there are limits to that specific kind of rationalization. Had that genocide not happened, we would still be able to shrug off many aspects of ethnic and political persecution. Now, we can’t. Or know we shouldn’t.

@ Aelxa

Next time you want to project a totalitarian mindset on me, tone it down a bit: try comparing me with the Spanish Inquisition. For a change.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2ncJ6ciGyM

Aelxa- If you claim to ‘know medicine’ why would you make such an elementary nonsensical blunder in claiming that ‘all medical advancement is due to someone saying there is something wrong in what we are doing, we need to change’? That can only be a fragment of the variety of disciplines, with their philosophies, paradigms and techniques that are involved in medical advancement. Perhaps you are oversimplifying!

@Aelxa What a boatload.
Yes, you are questioning. but you do not accepts any answers. This is not questioning at all.
Obviously, vaccination is not only way to rise life expectancy. Healthy food helps. too
Quackwatch (Barret) has a section for fibromyalgia:
https://quackwatch.org/fibromyalgia/
So he probably do not doubt that it exists.
I did read a paper about “herd immunity as originally proposed”. You gave a link to it. It was about measles. Measles is highly contagious. so vaccination rate required for herd immunity is very high. For COVID it is lower, because SARS CoV2 is less contagious:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1074761320301709
COVID vaccine clinical 2/3 trials did include older people:
https://www.fda.gov/media/144416/download
go to table 4. Phase 1 trials obviously did not, because they are about safety.
VAERS collects reports. Causality must be evaluated separately.
About telmisartan: if difference is that high, something fishy is happening. Generally,generics are cheaper.
I do not read neonazi material, or Norman Finkelstein, so I do not know what words they are using. You should concentrate substance, like that Israel have high COVID vaccination rate and almost no new COVID cases.
I remember “not by color of their skin, but by content of their character”. It was not deconstruct race.
You did not mention mesothelioma and smoking. Smoking and asbestos is a lethal combination. So increase of mesothelioma could indeed be explained this way. About SV40 and other cancers:
Weggen S, Bayer TA, von Deimling A, Reifenberger G, von Schweinitz D, Wiestler OD, Pietsch T. Low frequency of SV40, JC and BK polyomavirus sequences in human medulloblastomas, meningiomas and ependymomas. Brain Pathol. 2000 Jan;10(1):85-92. doi: 10.1111/j.1750-3639.2000.tb00245.x. PMID: 10668898.

@ Aarno Syvänen

SV 40 was found in two years of polio vaccines. Most research has found NO relationship with cancer. In fact, SV 40 is ubiquitous in environment. And, for sake of argument, let’s assume that very rare cases of cancer could be caused by SV 40. Overwhelming psychological studies find people make decisions based on current risks vs future risks. So, if I told a parent during height of polio epidemics that the vaccine would protect their child but, maybe 40 years in the future they might experience, very low probability, cancer, what do you think would be their answer? If it were my choice I wouldn’t hesitate, probably also think that 40 years from now medical treatments for cancer will have advanced significantly; but again, most research has NOT found an association. Yep, SV 40 found in some cancer patients; but our bodies our full of various viruses, viral particles, etc. In fact, our genomes are about 8% viral particles. So, finding in body not same as being causative.

And, typical, Aelxa finds something that happened 60 years ago. Well, if I were to search for every problem that has existed in medicine, we would end with no medicine. Yep, we learn from our mistakes. First heart transplants not good; but awhile back I met someone with a heart transplant who ran marathons and seemed quite well, transplant 10 years in past, etc.

Joel

I remember the first heart transplant occurring, it was all over the news magazines. Life magazine did a huge spread on the doctor and the patient.

I even got the first Polio vaccine on a sugar cube. All ancient history at this point in time.

“If I were to search for every problem that existed in medicine, we would end with no medicine.” What a silly statement, all medicine is a CONTINUAL refinement of previous medical practice. There are always problems in Medicine and its practice

That is why it is called “the Art of Medicine”.

Yes, we all run around infected with a monkey virus because no one considered that it could even happen, getting a virus from a vaccination.

Children are treated for cancer right now, with their parents knowing that they will likely develop other cancers later in life from the treatment for today’s cancer. So your example is just pointless. Parents always have hope, which is why I did not institutionalize my son when the pediatric neurologist said his brain was so damaged by the vaccine he would never interact with the world around himself.

Of course my son now talks and can function enough to be unnoticed by other people as being different. Unless they try to interact with him, that is another story.

Joel

Why not refer to something new, like this article published in Vol9 Suppl 1, February 2020 in Translational Lung Cancer Research (What we know and What we do not know in 2020)?

“Abstract: Simian virus 40 (SV40) is a DNA tumor virus capable of infecting and transforming human mesothelial (HM) cells in vitro. Hamsters injected intracardially to expose most tissue types to SV40 preferentially develop mesotheliomas. In humans, asbestos is the main cause of mesothelioma, and asbestos and SV40 are co-carcinogens in transforming HM cells in tissue culture and in causing mesothelioma in hamsters. Laser microdissection experiments conducted in the laboratory of Adi Gazdar demonstrated that SV40 was present specifically in the malignant mesothelioma cells and not in nearby stromal cells. Further experiments demonstrated that SV40 remains episomal in HM cells and astrocytes because of the production of a long antisense RNA that represses viral capsid protein production. Thus, the potent SV40 oncoprotein, T-antigen (Tag), is expressed, but because the capsid proteins are not produced, the cells are not lysed and, instead, become transformed. Together this evidence suggests that SV40 may contribute to the development of mesotheliomas in humans.

This chapter also summarizes the introduction of SV40, a monkey virus, into the human population as an unrecognized contaminant of early poliovaccines. In addition to mesotheliomas, SV40 now is linked with brain cancers, osteosarcomas, and lymphomas in humans. Explanations are provided for the apparent geographic variations in SV40 prevalence and for controversies about the role of SV40 in human cancer.”

So to say there is no proof that SV40 causes Cancer is not correct. The latest article I found says that there is proof.

@Aelxa There is a newer paper:
Alchami FS, Attanoos RL, Gibbs A, Morgan F, Jasani B. Does Simian Virus 40 (SV40) Have a Role in UK Malignant Pleural Mesothelioma? No Role is Identified in a Sensitive RNA In Situ Hybridization Study on Potentially Affected Birth Cohorts. Appl Immunohistochem Mol Morphol. 2020 Jul;28(6):444-447. doi: 10.1097/PAI.0000000000000779. PMID: 31205069.
It is about actual human cancer patients, too.

@Aelxa You do not cite paper. You missed this sentence in it:
“However, epidemiological evidence to support this hypothesis is lacking.”
So there is no proof, even your source admits this,

Aarno

From your UK paper…

“…the SV40 oncogenic protein large T antigen (SV40 Tag) has been shown to cause malignant transformation of asbestos-treated human pleural mesothelial cells and malignant pleural mesotheliomas in asbestos-exposed SV40 Tag transgenic mice.”

Right there the study authors admit that SV40 has been shown to cause cancer.

The study you quote was on people who were injected with the contaminated vaccines and lived in an asbestos contaminated area. They found 139 samples to examine and only used 127 of them. I think anyone dealing in statistics will tell you 127 is a very sample sample, and while they say they found no SV40 in those samples that does not negate what they wrote in the abstract….

” the SV40 oncogenic protein large T antigen (SV40 Tag) has been shown to cause malignant transformation of asbestos-treated human..”

So your study is not proof of SV40 not causing cancer. It is merely proof they did not find SV40 in the 127 samples they examined. And since the full study is not available for free, there is no way to find out why they rejected the other 12 samples they found.

@ Aelxa

“So your study is not proof of SV40 not causing cancer. It is merely proof they did not find SV40 in the 127 samples they examined.”

Ever heard of a Bernoulli trial ?

“I think anyone dealing in statistics will tell you 127 is a very sample sample…”

You can do stats on small samples. Depends what you want to do… 127 Bernoulli trials yielding the same answer tends to be statistically not that irrelevant.

You know, Aelxa, you should start trying to let it flow away a bit…

@Aelxa The result was this
“SV40 Tag RNA was not detected in any of the 127 evaluable tumor cases, despite appropriate results obtained for the external positive and negative controls included.”
Seems to quite conclusive to me. SV40 DNA and RNA are different things. Latter one means that SV40 genes are actually expressed. So in this case, they were not. To this one can add that epidemiological studies never show any connection.
It is well known that SV40 causes tumors in rodents. Question is, does this happen in humans
Carbone’s paper speculates that SV40 and asbestos together cause mesothelioma. If this were the case, some SV40 expression should have happened.

Carbone’s paper speculates that SV40 and asbestos together cause mesothelioma. If this were the case, some SV40 expression should have happened.

Umm, way back when (I can’t believe the litigation is still going on, but Florida TV demonstrates otherwise), I had to slog through one asbestos deposition after another. Since when is SV40 required to produce mesothelioma in addition to asbestos?

Aarno

You should have read the crap Barrett wrote in the 1990s and early 2000s about Fibromyalgia being a fake disease and people being malingerers who just wanted to get on Disability and get free money.

If he FINALLY decided it was real, after decades when he caused severe damage and pain to many thousands of patients and the doctors who were treating those patients.

So Barrett can go F himself.

Do you know the English word “Fishmonger”? It means “a seller of fish”.

Monger is an old English word for “seller”.

So Holocaust monger means “a person who sells or spreads the word of the Holocaust happening”. And it is a word used by Neo-Nazis who say a Holocaust monger is just spreading false propaganda, and that the Holocaust never occurred.

If you do not want a Nazi label then avoid using the “Holocaust monger” label.

If you remember that paper about “herd immunity” he proposed that once 40% of the population got the disease then the outbreak would stop. And back then it did work, because antibodies from the Measles lasts life-long and people did not move around that much, so their “herds” were likely a very stable population.

I had the Measles at 8, and at 38 I still had super high antibodies against the Measles when I was pregnant. They tested me for common diseases and I had natural antibodies against all of them.

But even at the 93% vaccination rate against the Measles today there are still outbreaks. You could do 100% vaccination program, but that is not “herd immunity”, that is a 100% vaccination rate. And the antibodies from the vaccine does not last your entire life.

So saying you can get “herd immunity” from vaccination is a fallacy, all you can get is a certain percentage vaccinated. And who will likely not maintain that immunity in many cases.

Narad

Which assertion are you questioning?

Barrett? You can check the Wayback Machine to find what he wrote about Fibromyalgia being a quack disease circa 1990s.

Measles vaccination not lasting? Check the CDC.

93% vaccination rate still having measles outbreaks? Check the CDC.

Holocaust monger? Please, check the with the Israelis.

@Aelxa There is paper about measles immuntiy:
GÜRİS, DALYA MD, MPH; MCCREADY, JILL MS, MPH; WATSON, JOHN C. MD, MPH; ATKINSON, WILLIAM L. MD, MPH; HEATH, JANET L. MT(ASCP); BELLINI, WILLIAM J. PHD; POLLOI, ANTHONY MO Measles Vaccine Effectiveness and Duration of Vaccine-induced Immunity in the Absence of Boosting from Exposure to Measles Virus, The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal: December 1996 – Volume 15 – Issue 12 – p 1082-1086
It was 27 years. Measles vaccine is attenuated life virus, so it should have exactly same immune effect as a life virus. It does not suppress immunity, though.
There are pockets of low vaccination. Measles outbreaks happen there.
Speaking about holocaust monger, nazis obviously sell holocaust. It is one of their main goals.

Narad

“So many assertions, so complete the lack of a shred of evidence.”

Really? I wrote 100% vaccination will not get you “herd immunity” only a 100% vaccination rate. And here is the proof….

From an article published in Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal April 1993
” Investigating a Measles outbreak in a fully vaccinated school population including serum studies before and after revaccination.”

“Abstract
A measles outbreak in early 1989 among approximately 4200 students at a high school and two intermediate schools in suburban Houston, TX, was investigated to evaluate reasons for vaccine failure and to predict the efficacy of a booster dose of measles vaccine. Seventy-seven cases occurred (71 at the high school, 6 at intermediate schools; attack rate, 3.2 and 0.3%, respectively). Vaccination in the first year of life an 13 to 14 years since last vaccination were independent risk factors for being a case. Forty-three (18%) of 239 sera collected from students just before revaccination during the outbreak were negative by enzyme immunoassay; a neutralization assay confirmed these 43 lacked antibody predicting protection against measles infection. Of 43 enzyme immunoassay-negative students 24 gave another blood sample 9 to 10 months after revaccination. Revaccination appeared to reduce the portion of all students with neutralization titers predicting susceptibility to measles illness with rash from 7.9% to 3.0% and left the portion predicted to be susceptible to illness without rash unchanged (45%).”

Aelxa, you have posted that article before. As I pointed out the last time, 1989 was BEFORE the introduction of the second dose.
Smallpox and rinderpest are gone and polio is not far behind. Had it not been for moron antivaxxers and Andrew Wakefield, measles would likely be almost gone, or gone.
Your denial of herd immunity is flying in the face of reality.

Julian

Herd immunity is impossible…..

“the once-popular idea that enough people will eventually gain immunity to SARS-CoV-2 to block most transmission — a ‘herd-immunity threshold’ — is starting to look unlikely.

That threshold is generally achievable only with high vaccination rates, and many scientists had thought that once people started being immunized en masse, herd immunity would permit society to return to normal. Most estimates had placed the threshold at 60–70% of the population gaining immunity, either through vaccinations or past exposure to the virus. But as the pandemic enters its second year, the thinking has begun to shift. In February, independent data scientist Youyang Gu changed the name of his popular COVID-19 forecasting model from ‘Path to Herd Immunity’ to ‘Path to Normality’. He said that reaching a herd-immunity threshold was looking unlikely because of factors such as vaccine hesitancy, the emergence of new variants and the delayed arrival of vaccinations for children.

Gu is a data scientist, but his thinking aligns with that of many in the epidemiology community. “We’re moving away from the idea that we’ll hit the herd-immunity threshold and then the pandemic will go away for good,” says epidemiologist Lauren Ancel Meyers, executive director of the University of Texas at Austin COVID-19 Modeling Consortium. This shift reflects the complexities and challenges of the pandemic, and shouldn’t overshadow the fact that vaccination is helping. “The vaccine will mean that the virus will start to dissipate on its own,” Meyers says. But as new variants arise and immunity from infections potentially wanes, “we may find ourselves months or a year down the road still battling the threat, and having to deal with future surges”.

And as I noted before, the US has about a 93% vaccination rate for Measles, and still there is no “herd immunity” achieved with Measles in the US.

And the 1989 paper was in a highly vaccinated population, as physicians for years had already been giving kids a second shot even though it was not yet recommended by the FDA. We went over this before, remember?

“Herd Immunity” was a THEORY based on naturally acquired immunity after infection, and it has never worked in the world of vaccination instead of natural immunity.

You can keep piping up about “herd immunity” but even the experts are saying forget it. It is not happening.

@Aelxa Measles is very contagious, so herd immunity rate is very high, COVID is less contagious. If an infected person, on average, infects less people, there are less need to vaccinate.
As I have said before, measles outbreaks happen in the pockets of low vaccine intake. They end when vaccination rate reaches the herd immunity value.
Perhaps you care to comment Israel:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/
Perhaps the explanation is heard immunity ?

Aelxa, I said your denial of herd immunity flew in the face of reality. Your response to me proves it.

“Herd Immunity” was a THEORY based on naturally acquired immunity after infection, and it has never worked in the world of vaccination instead of natural immunity.

Smallpox and Rinderpest were driven into extinction in the wild by herd immunity caused by vaccines.
You are wrong.

Julian

The Smallpox vaccination program worked for the simple reason that traveling was a rich man’s hobby back when they decided to vaccinate everyone against smallpox. Even shipping from overseas was a tiny fraction of the shipping being done today and it took over a week to travel by ship to Europe back in the 1960s.

I remember being on such a passanger-freighter and the First Officer’s 7 year old son having the Measles. Which he apparently caught at a port in Central America. I was the only other child on-board and had had the Measles years eariler….. so I spent the voyage entertaining him. By the time we got to Europe the boy had recovered fully from the Measles and was able to leave the ship.

No one was bringing back Smallpox from a foreign land in only a few hours as happens to day. If it was possible to do so back then, I am sure Smallpox would still be around today infecting people.

Do you have such a huge problem understanding what a “herd” is and that the herd is of a specific size and area….meaning bringing in a virus or bacteria from outside affects “herd immunity” and can easily totally negate it as a protective factor? This is why we keep having Measles outbreaks in the US with a 93% vaccination rate. Someone always brings the disease home after going overseas.

Since polio is spread through feces, and they are using a live-virus vaccine in areas of few toilets and little water…expect polio to keep being with us. We already went over this the last time.

@Aelxa About herd immunity. Is it difficult to you to understand that foreign travel may require vaccination certificate ? This is done if there were too many foreign originated cases.

It apparently also has little knowledge of polio eradication. (Bye, WPV2 and WPV3!) Latest GPEI release is here.

^ And, of course, the schedule has been modified to include IPV to prevent cVDPV’s. This is the endgame (PDF).

Aarno

Mesothelioma is a lung cancer.

The topic was not lung cancers but brain cancer in children. Which is not caused by smoking.

@ Aelxa

You write: “If vaccination increases life span than the US should have the longest life span on Earth.”

ceteris paribus – all other things equal and, yep, vaccinations would give Americans the longest lifespan; but things are not as simple as simpletons like you want it to be. Approximately 40% of adult Americans are obese. Approaching half have heart disease. Our government subsidizes the growing of corn which allows food companies to buy high fructose corn syrup very cheap. Nope, high fructose corn syrup isn’t really worse than sucrose, that is, cane or beet sugar; but it is the quantity that matters. In 1950s average American got about 40 lbs of added sugar to their diet. It is now over 120 lbs. If you know what osmosis is, you will understand that adding sugar and salt to food and removing fiber extends its shelf life and flavor, so companies can sell junk food which affects our health. And many poorer areas of cities have no markets with fresh fruit and vegetable. There are a number of other factors that reduce life-expectancy in U.S.: less safe work environments (some other nations have higher safety and health standards and enforce them), automobile accidents (partly how we drive; but many other nations use mass transits more), smoking, drug use, and violence (highest per capita murder rate by far compared to other technologically advanced democracies, and I probably could think of more. Yep, some nations smoke more than we do; but, at same time eat more fruit and vegetables, walk more, and have far better preventive health care.

And as others mentioned above, we have the only health care system designed for profit not for people. In fact, infant mortality among American poor, especially Blacks, is higher than in some Third World Nations. We under treat and over treat. Depends on ability to pay. There is a new program on PBS entitled: Critical Care: America vs The World. Only a few problems. It depicts how well the UK’s system works; however, with some long delays for elected surgery; but doesn’t make clear that, as a proportion of the GDP, they spend half as much as we do, so if they spent a bit more, wouldn’t have the problem. They also mention why we can’t have a single-payer system, politics. In many localities hospital is largest business and politicians don’t want to deprive them of money. However, 30 cents on the dollar in U.S. doesn’t go to doctors nor hospitals; but to excessive administration, stock dividends, and bloated CEO salaries. And the program shows the private Swiss system; but doesn’t explain that which ever company one chooses, one can go to any doctor or hospital. In U.S. our for-profit system hurts us in many ways. Problems with continuity of care as for-profit companies negotiate with doctors years, dropping some, adding others. Delays in getting care as bureaucrats decide if necessary to see specialist. Limited networks, so, if specialist not in network . . . And we have the overwhelming number of healthcare related bankruptcies in the world.

And, though high rates of childhood vaccinations, adults a different story; e.g., number who get flu vaccines years far less than half and, though one of the least effective vaccines, if everyone got it yearly would save thousands of lives and 10s of thousands of hospitalizations.

Finally, what most people don’t understand is that 65% of health care in U.S. in financed directly and indirectly by taxes.

If anyone is interested, I wrote two articles that cover the above and more in detail with extensive references.

Joel A. Harrison (2008). Paying More, Getting Less: How much is the sick U.S. health care system costing you? Dollars&Sense Magazine. Available at: http://dollarsandsense.org/archives/2008/0508harrison.html

Joel A. Harrison (2018 Aug 10). The Case for A Non-Profit Single-Payer Healthcare System. Physicians for a National Health Program. Available at: http://pnhp.org/news/the-case-for-a-non-profit-single-payer-healthcare-system/

Joel

Well, if Medicare-for-All went through then the health system would be better, but hey, that is Socialism right? I voted for Bernie but we got Biden, so expect not much progress.

Thank goodness, Baby Bush did not get his wish in 2007 to make Social Security invest in the Stock Market. Then we over 65 would really be up the creek right now.

I know how other countries healthcare systems work. I had a broken wrist happen in school in Germany during a gym class. All the bills were covered under the national health plan, and we never got a bill. Even though I was an American citizen I was a student in a German school so the plan covered me as a student.

I have been saying the 1980s that the commercial medical insurance was a rip-off that enriched the company top officers, nothing new there. And the non-profit hospitals disappeared back in the 1980s, to reappear as for-profits that sucked money like BC&BS.

Nothing you are saying is new, just over 40 years after I was complaining about it.

As for our food, the FDA helped make it this way. I was a healthy healthfood buyer from the 1970s before healthfood “products” turned into what are now basically the same stuff as the regular grocerystore. Now you have to hunt to find real food in healthfood stores, too.

Where there is a profit to be made, there are companies that will make trash and sell it as food. The trash sold as vegetarian or vegan is amazing.

@ Aelxa

You write: “Even Cuba is # 45 with 79.18 years, and they are still running around in old 1950s cars without seatbelts.”

Yep, from the gitgo Castro implemented universal health care and education. He built rural health clinics. They have a lower infant mortality than U.S. And, Cuba provides free medical education to Third World citizens with stipulation they return to their respective countries. And it was Medicin sans Frontier and Cuban medical personnel who were first on scene in 2014 for Ebola outbreak in Africa, not us. And Cuba sends doctors and medical personnel to Third World nations. As for vaccines, the latest:

“Cuba’s vaccination program against 14 diseases is being maintained amidst the battle against COVID-19. Only the application of the anti-polio and anti-flu vaccines was postponed, given the specific situation the country is facing due to the pandemic – but the doses are available and will be administered at a later date.”

So, they do vaccinate and they have an excellent vaccine production facility and give vaccines to Third World nations and currently have developed their own COVID vaccine.

WRONG AGAIN.

And we are trade partners with China and Vietnam, two nations we fought wars with; yet continue to do everything to destroy Cuba’s economy. Then we point to how poorly their economy is doing. I wonder how well another nation would do; e.g., Australia, Sweden, etc. if we had imposed trade sanctions, bank sanctions, etc. One lie after another. And, though not an expert on Cuba, I have read a bit and wonder how Castro’s Cuba would have developed if we had not tried assassinating him numerous times, sprayed poisons on their crops, Bay of Pigs, etc. Actually, it was only after Castro confiscated American industries and agriculture that we opposed him. And if anyone knows Cuban history, they fought for 10 years against Spain then we intervened, we made the treaty, and while American soldiers occupying Cuba, American businesses took over everything Spain controlled, so, basically, by military might we expropriated what should have gone to the Cubans, so Castro was right to do what he did and he offered to pay over time.

So, yep, bring up Cuba.

You do realize the World Meter site statistics are from before 2020, right? Before COVID-19 , and before vaccines for COVID?

And did I say anything bad about Cuba? Not as far as I can see, merely that they have a better lifespan than Americans do. And they are still using 1950s cars, which they machine new parts for and keep running in top condition. Some of those cars are older than me.

My question was, we tout America having the best of everything, yet we are almost #50 on the lifespan list.

Maybe the US is not so great, even with using more vaccines per person than any other country in the World. And spending more per person on medical care than any other country.

As for infant mortality the US sucks. I have written about this before. In fact being black and pregnant in the US is particularly dangerous to your life.

You having a particularly bad day?

@ Aelxa

You write: “I went to a university that had one of the first Environmental Science degree programs and also a Marine Science program that focused on improving the ocean instead of raping it.”

What was your major?

You write: “And my cat snuggles with me all the time,”

I love animals and being an old man, have outlived most of my friends; but have a great dog I got from a rescue group who sleeps with me, lays beside me when I read, plays with me in backyard, and I walk him twice daily a mile each time. So, except for occasional phone calls, he is only company I have while sheltering-in-place and I love him.

You write: “As I said before, I pick and choose which ones I get, not all vaccines are good in my opinion. Especially ones that have not even finished the studies normally that have to be done, before a vaccine is licensed.”

If you are talking about COVID mRNA vaccines, yep, they did finish required studies. I was in Moderna mRNA vaccine phase 3 clinical trial, which involved 30,000 volunteers, with significant number senior citizens and registered both mild adverse reactions and very serious ones. Before volunteering I dug out my molecular biology and genetic textbooks and carefully reviewed mRNA. Then I did thorough search of literature on all previous attempts at mRNA vaccines, etc. Yep, it seemed rushed; but wasn’t. For instance, government paid to produce vaccines to be available if passed FDA requirements. Normally, first FDA approves, then production which can take a long time, etc.

Read: L.R. Baden et al. (2020 Dec 30). Efficacy and Safety of the mRNA-1273 SARS-CoV-2 Vaccine. New England Journal of Medicine [note it was posted online way before published in print] Available at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7787219/

You write: “Even with vaccines this Pandemic is not going away anytime soon, the new variants will continue to cause problems for years yet, since people think once they get the vaccine they no longer need to wear masks,etc. A complete fallacy, of course.”

So far the vaccine does protect against the variants. Maybe not as much; but preventing hospitalizations and deaths. And I have no problem if in future a booster shot is offered. It isn’t all or none. And the mRNA vaccines elicit extremely high antibody titers, much higher than from actual infection, so studies have found that one vaccine shot increases protection of those who already were infected.

As for not going away, depends, again your view of things as all or none doesn’t reflect reality. If the vast majority of people either get vaccinated and/or infected, the likelihood of infection plummets. I am extremely cautious; but don’t wear a mask when walking my dog; but when go into store to shop. And the few times friends have visited who also received vaccines, don’t wear a mask. All depends on people. There will be areas of nation where enough have been vaccinated and/or exposed that mask usage will not be necessary. Keep in mind that even without COVID there is always a minuscule risk of some infection, should we wear masks always?

I NEVER take aspirin nor ibuprofen after a vaccination. Studies have found reduce effectiveness of vaccines because dampen immune system response. Vaccines still elicit enough antibodies; but . . So, after 2nd COVID shot had quite sore arm and low grade fever. Just put up with both.

You write: “As the Nuremburg protocols state an experiment participant is to be a volunteer and not forced to be part of an experiment”

And, as I explained above, the vaccines did go meet all safety study requirements! ! !

You write: “But then you are as rigid as a Nazi in your thinking.”

When someone plays the Nazi card, they show their own ignorance!

You write: “And do not forget they sent their own German citizens to be gassed who did not fit their set of Aryan physical and mental parameters. Hitler was not even German, he was Austrian, was a draft evader from the Austrian Army, and supposedly had a Jewish mother.”
Yep, the T4 program euthanized those with any handicap, e.g., Down Syndrome, Schizophrenics, cripples, etc. It was horrible and, interestingly enough, when German citizens learned about it, they protested, and program ended temporarily, I repeat temporarily.

“In August 1914, at the outbreak of World War I, Hitler was living in Munich and voluntarily enlisted in the Bavarian Army. He was decorated for bravery, receiving the Iron Cross, Second Class, in 1914.[70] On a recommendation by Lieutenant Hugo Gutmann, Hitler’s Jewish superior, he received the Iron Cross, First Class on 4 August 1918, a decoration rarely awarded to one of Hitler’s Gefreiter rank.[71][72] He received the Black Wound Badge on 18 May 1918.” (Wikipedia. Adolf Hitler)

So, not only was he NOT a draft dodger; but extremely brave soldier. As for having a Jewish mother. Nope Nope Nope. However, he was devoted to his mother and when she developed cancer, a Jewish doctor took care of her and free of charge because of their economic situation. When German took over Austria, the doctor received a personal letter from Hitler thanking him and allowing him and his entire family to leave for England with ALL their possessions, including bank account.

You write: “Let me educate you, about the Web of Life. If you destroy too many areas of the Web, the entire structure starts to fail. Take pesticides and bees for example. Here in the US about 90% of our food is fertilized by bees. We are looking to a future where people will have to hand fertilize crops if we will want to eat. . . Yes, we are also killing the Diatoms in the oceans that produce 30 to 80% of the oxygen we breathe. The percentage varies with the article you read. Add the trees we are killing daily and other activities, etc your Brave New World will be uninhabitable with no breathable atmosphere for us Humans and most other creatures”

Agreed. As they say, a broken clock gets the time right twice daily, so I totally agree with you on this.

You write: “Never mind that the microplastics finding their way into the flesh of fish and other sea creatures people eat. Plastic is not biodegradable, it only turns into smaller and smaller and smaller pieces that are getting absorbed by plants and animals.”

Actually it is so bad that it is in the air we breath and blood samples find it in babies. A few types are partly biodegradable; but research shows can be used to make fuels. Don’t know how this will affect atmosphere.

You write: “Did you know that in most if the West you are not allowed to even catch and save the rain that falls on your house? There are laws that say that water is not yours, even if it fell on your roof and is flowing through your rain gutters.”

WRONG. I have been thinking of having set up exactly system to catch rain water and water from shower to be used for watering grass. Get your facts straight.

You write: “I do not care doodley about patents, a generic is supposed to be as effective as the brandname. Period.”

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. Our pharmaceutical industry, not all companies; but industry on the whole is greedy and, too some extent dishonest. Generics should cost less than 10% of brand name; but often 70 – 80% because pharmaceutical companies in various ways manipulate the generic market. As for FDA, a bunch of super quality researchers; but at the top, political. Requirements for getting a drug approved include supplying all research; but companies don’t always comply and seldom if ever called on it. So, over past 30 years over 25 drugs have been withdrawn from market that probably never should have been approved in first place. However, the regulations and oversight for vaccines is much much more stringent. If interested, go to Public Citizen at: https://www.citizen.org/topic/safe-affordable-drugs-devices/

I have been a member for 35 years. Founded by Ralph Nader. They are probably the best consumer group monitoring drugs and called for either not approving or withdrawing from market all that were eventually withdrawn, etc.

You write: “Taking a perfectly inexpensive, good and nutritious food and making an expensive pill instead. All to make money, instead of telling people to drink kefir”

Maybe some people just don’t like Kefir. Before I became a vegan, I loved it. Getting nutrition from foods is always better than supplements for a variety of reasons; e.g., other ingredients, vitamins, minerals, proteins, interact in ways not supplied by supplements. However, as a vegan, I take B12 because can’t get in food, iron because blood donor, and vitamin D3 because don’t go out in sun and even if did as we age less absorption, I take twice daily 1,000 iu (25 mg). Never take megadoses of anything. So, while I agree with you, not with your rigid absolutist approach.

You write: “It is laughable that you think even now that someone on Social Security is able to afford any of those pay-to-view movies things. First your new to purchase internet access, after you get the computer to go on the internet, and then you have to pay for the movie service.”

Actually I don’t own a TV. I pay for Netflix and PBS Passport, about $16 per month and use slowest internet speed, works great. Once-in-while find something for free on YouTube. And my Social Security is so low that I get a 30% discount from the Gas and Electric Company. Yep, my internet company is expensive, even upped rates after 2008 crash; but I have little choice. Without would be totally isolated. Friends in Sweden, France, and other nations pay far less, get top speeds, and the private for-profit companies do quite well; however, in U.S. enough is never enough.

As for gluten free from food banks. I just phoned one and people can opt for vegetarian, don’t know about other food banks.

You write: “have a 2 year old flatscreen TV but there is just no signals. At least I can watch DVDs on it.”

As I wrote, Netflix and PBS Passport inexpensive; but I also get tons of good DVDs from our public library.

You write: “I remember AIDS in the beginning, and the people who could afford vitamin and supplements lived longer than those who could not afford them”

NOT REALLY.

Sorry about your son’s autism. I wish you the best in that regard. And, yep, Agent Orange, still causing birth defects in Vietnam, just one war crime committed by this nation.

You write: “Be sure to NOT take Vitamin D3 or kefir, since they actually have proof they work against severe COVID-19 infection.”

Vitamin D3, not proof, some indication yes, other no. You are really tiresome when you make such absolutist statements not based in science.

You write: “Scratch the surface of any human making comments here and you will find a bigot.”

Well, aren’t you a human being making comments here? What an absolutely stupid statement, disagree with some commenters and then label all, well, then hi BIGOT!

Well, I’ve other things to do. Currently, proof-reading and making editorial suggestions for colleagues next edition of undergraduate microbiology text, a subject clearly related to vaccines. And on Sunday I will be donating convalescent plasma because COVID vaccine gave me a high titer of antibodies and each time I donate can help up to four hospitalized COVID patients.

Bye

I NEVER take aspirin nor ibuprofen after a vaccination. Studies have found reduce effectiveness of vaccines because dampen immune system response. Vaccines still elicit enough antibodies; but . . So, after 2nd COVID shot had quite sore arm and low grade fever. Just put up with both.

Thanks for that advice. When I got my first shot of AstraZeneca I had a splitting headache the next day. I was tempted to take some ibuprofen, but I decided against it, because I thought: “well if ibuprofen is also used against infections, it might not be a good thing to take if I just have gotten a vaccine, which is ment to teach my immunesystem to handle an infection with a new virus.”

Just FWIW, I was watching a video about the OV-10 Bronco which was widely used during the Viet Nam war. It happened to mention that the Bronco was used in Operation Ranch Hand. I wonder if a study was ever done specifically on Bronco pilots for Agent Orange effects?

And Hi BIGOT! to you too. I clearly wrote I was a bigot, did I not? Pale blue eyes will cause me to reject anyone who has them. We all have prejudices, anyone who says they do not is not being honest.

Hitler was a draft dodger in Austria, he was supposed to serve in the Austrian Military around 1890 since he was an Austrian male citizen. Instead he ducked and dodged and evaded entering the Austrian Military service like the Plague.

He later moved to Germany and decided to join the German military, which would have earned him a jail sentence back in Austria. Why? He had a thing about being “German” even though he was still an Austrian citizen.

In 1933 he had a law passed that said both Jesus Christ and Hitler was not Jewish. I bet that is news to Jesus, Him not being Jewish. Pretty ballsy to say Jesus was not a Jew.

Way after WW2 other family members of Hiltler were tested, and they found out the family carried a gene common in Sephardic Jews. Seems his father was illegitimate and the mother worked for a wealthy Jewish family. In the Jewish religion the mother must be Jewish for the child to be Jewish, so by their laws he was not Jewish. But that little gene problem is soooooo intriguing. But there was also the question of one of Hitler’s grandfathers being Jewish in some way.

Why does everyone think because something is cheap where they live, it must be so in other areas of the US?

Here cable service starts at $70 a month and is only in town which covers 1,200 residents. Satellite service is well over $100 a month and is so slow movies are not possible. Want to get telephone internet? Need to pay for phone service first, about $70 a month, and the lines are so old they frequently fail in wet rainy weather. The lines are over 70 years old and they are in no hurry to replace them. The internet signal over a phone line is useless.

The library is so small and poor we get 2 to 3 new books a month, and they have to get rid of a book to put a new one on a shelf. They have no budget for DVDs, they have to be donated by someone.

Check your state, county and town ordinances beforehand on collecting and using rainwater. In Arkansas you can only use it for non-potable use and the system must be designed and certified by an engineer. In Colorado it was a no- no, it now allows you to have two 55 gallon barrels for a max of 110 gallons. And you may NOT use it for drinking water, no matter how you filter and treat it. Utah it is a no-no.

Almost every state has laws that prohibit using it to drink, some allow use to flush toilets but require examinations to insure it is not cross-contaminating drinking water, etc. Some allow collecting water, to water a small garden, and no more than 2 acres in one state. It would be a shame if you setup a system and found you have to remove it because it was not up to code.

Vitamin D does have proof that the sickest COVID-19 patients have the lowest Vitamin D levels. Giving extra Vitamin D while severely ill with COVID-19 is too late, it does not help at that point, so take your Vitamin D3 now and get it to a good level.

The earliest treatments for AIDS was nutrients and vitamins which staved off the advance of the AIDS condition getting worse, and they published papers on it. Go to PubMed. I had friends who died of AIDS back in the 1980s and those that could afford the vitamins and nutrients lasted long enough to get the new medical treatments for AIDS.

One foodbank had a vegetarian choice, wow, they held back the meat on the plate. You know, try calling a county with only 14,000 residents total and see what options they offer. Poor countys have no options, you get what they have. Period. It is not a full-service restaurant, even a full- service restauranthas no gluten-free options around here.

Our county is almost the poorest in our state, only one other county had a lower annual income of only $9,000 a year. Ours is not even $12,000 a year. We are talking poor here, people live in homes you think are abandoned they are in such poor repair.

Gas and electric discounts? What state is that? Here it is pay our bill or we shut off your service.

A TV, a monitor, call what you want, my son uses it to play Playstation, but it could be used hooked up to an antenna or a computer. $16 internet is no use without equipment to use it. And that stuff costs more money.

At least kefir has nutrition in it, I hate to think what GMO-product they might grow the pill stuff on. No pill can contain what the real food contains.

A neighbor showed me a pill that claimed to contain all the nutrition from 16 servings of vegetables. When I took a look it was obviously a lie since it then said it contained this tiny fraction of a molecule that the vegetables contained. Explaining to him that he was wasting his money on some itty-bitty fraction called IRAC that did nothing that I could find, it was a exercise in going in circles.

He believed the advertising, then I pointed out the usual disclaimer on the bottle and explained there was no way to get 16 veggies in a tiny tablet. It took a month before he finally believed me.

The last I read on Medscape, Healio and PubMed the antibody treatments were not very effective at all to treat COVID-19.

But the companies that collect the antibodies are making up to $10,000 a shot for antibody samples for research purposes. So feel free to “donate” but who it is helping may not be who you think it is. I had looked into donating after getting sick back in March 2020, but when I found out about the money and where it was going, I decided to keep my antibodies where they could do me the most good, instead of some company out to make big bucks.

I remember Nader from when he was pushing for seatbelts in all cars for goodness sake, back when a seatbelt was merely an expensive option per seat.

Gentle Reader,

The U.S. has about 16 million people in the age group 75-84.

About 9% of them died every year prior to Covid-19.

152,804 have died from Covid-19 in about a year out of 1,047 out of 1,047,487 total deaths.
That’s about 12,700 per month for the one age group.

78% of them received at least one dose of a Covid-19 vaccine.

So about 120,000 people in that age range die every month.

About 93,600 people of those people were vaccinated.

About 3400 deaths of vaccinated people in ALL age groups have been reported to VAERS.

CDC investigators have identified about a dozen cases of an unusual blood clotting disorder including 2 or 3 deaths which MAY be linked to the vaccine. But they apparently haven’t found anything unusual about those 3400 deaths that might connect them to one of the Covid-19 vaccines.

About 27% of U.S. Covid-19 deaths have been in the 75-84 age range. So perhaps 300 of the 93,600 in that age who would be expected to die anyway each month were curious enough to provoke a VAERS report?

Perhaps the CDC will find something further to investigate from these VAERS reports.

But, to me, excruciating about 10 deaths every day out of the 3000 average every day hardly seems like enough evidence to stop trying to save 400 lives a day.

Squirrelelite

You say 78% of those in the 75-84 age group were vaccinated and died.

First of all, the clotting problem is being found in women under the age of 50, most are in their 20s and 30s.Those are the people being reported as having these clotting problems, not people 75 or older.

In the older age groups they are expecting people to die anyway, even if their conditions are stable and not expected to get worse anytime soon. When they die after getting a vaccination they are buried asap, no testing or autopsy is done since they were old anyway, right? Who knows what they really died of.

Right today I got a Medscape article about sudden cardiac problems popping up in people who had COVID-19 a year earlier. So for everyone who got over COVID-19 and had no “Long Covid” symptoms, you may not be out of the woods yet.

As to what might or might not be caused by the vaccine, weird blood clotting disorders in young women are not common at all.

F68

Schicklgruber was his father’s mother’s maiden name, ie his paternal grandmothers name.

Hitler’s father’s name was Alois Hitler, not Schicklgruber.

@ Aelxa

“Hitler’s father’s name was Alois Hitler, not Schicklgruber.”

Who f*cking cares. Really ? Get real. Get a grip.

F68

Obviously you care, since you mentioned it. If you did not care, you would not bother writing your comment about who f-ing cares.

Aexela-personal experience is a very important aspect, written into history sometimes, but there is an even larger component of history via other primary sources. You do not become the expert because of your German and Nazi connections. A simple example of your apparent lack of real expertise in the discipline is your reference to ‘concentration camps’ taking the cake. No they didn’t, however horrific. The extermination camps were the primary regions of hell and death with a bullet in the back of the skull and kicking the victim into the prepared pit was also worse than concentration camps. There are no exceptions to the premise that we can all always learn something more about the ‘Nazi cancer’ on the planet .

Leonard

You obviously do not understand the phrase “to take the cake.”

It means to go way over the top, to be completely outrageous in what they did.

The Soviets were very fond of the trench and bullet method, but the Nazis only used that at the end of the war when they were finally losing, because they found gassing too slow and needing manpower to move the bodies and processing them. Removing the gold teeth, etc. They even made lampshades from the skin. So if you do not think that whole process is not the very worst….

I think I would rather die from a bullet in the back of the head, then suffocate via poison gas and then be stripped for “parts”.

I have Asthma and not being able to breathe is an awful sensation.

Leonard, some people can’t or won’t learn.

Interested readers can learn about the PRENATAL origins of autism in detail by listening to Eric Courchesne speak- there are a few videos of him and an audio of his lectures at Rutgers, Spring 2017: the U even includes images of his handouts for students. He’s been working on this for 40 years.

Aarno

And as you get older your immune response degrades and by the time you are in your 80s you are in danger from a simple flu you could easily fight off in your 30s and 40s and 50s.

The immune system waxes and then wanes, so there is no unending supply of antibodies and t-cells to protect you.

Naive T-cells decrease with age, they are not there forever doing the same work in your 60s as they did in your teens. Naive t-cells live only a maximum of nine years.

This wild idea of the immune system as being Superman-like able to leap all disease organisms is a joke.

If it worked that way no one would ever get sick in their old age. And immunizations would not be less effective as you get older.

@Aelxa I am not worshipper of vaccines. I give you an answer, and you just dance around it. You never refute anything I say.
I missed one of your boatload, your answer to my comment that amount of antibodies is astronomical. You do not know how immunity diversity is generated. It happens by recombination and somatic hypermutation
Speaking about T cells, firstly random recombination creates cells synthesizing different antibodies (every clone it own). Non reacting and self reacting cells are removed. This happens during childhood for whole life. Number of naive T cells (as they are called) is astronomical.
Somatic hypermutation in lymph nodes. It makes T cells more reactive

@ Aarno Syvänen

Approximate number of different B cells (which make antibodies) 100 million, about 30 of each, so more than possibly any different microbe that could enter our bodies. T-cells about same number. I would say both, as you wrote, astronomical.

Aarno

For the last time the immune system is not Superman and protective cell numbers are not astronomical……..

“T-cell ageing: Effects of age on development, survival & function
Nasir Salam, Sanket Rane, […], and Vineeta Bal

Abstract
Age associated decline of the immune system continues to be a major health concern. All components of innate and adaptive immunity are adversely affected to lesser or greater extent by ageing resulting in an overall decline of immunocompetence. As a result in the aged population, there is increased susceptibility to infection, poor responses to vaccination, and increased incidence of autoreactivity. There is an increasing focus on the role of T cells during ageing because of their impact on the overall immune responses. A steady decline in the production of fresh naïve T cells, more restricted T cell receptor (TCR) repertoire and weak activation of T cells are some of the effects of ageing.”

The immune system works at it’s highest functional level in Puberty and then declines over the decades….. taking a huge dive after age 60.

Which is why vaccinations are so less effective in those over 60. But under 60 not always that great either as the immune system functioning ability degrades decade by decade.

@ Aelxa
About immune system of old people
Influenza vaccine efficiency in elderly:
Maryam Darvishian, Maarten J Bijlsma, Eelko Hak, Edwin R van den Heuvel,
Effectiveness of seasonal influenza vaccine in community-dwelling elderly people: a meta-analysis of test-negative design case-control studies,
The Lancet Infectious Diseases, Volume 14, Issue 12, 2014, Pages 1228-1239,ISSN 1473-3099,
https://doi.org/10.1016/S1473-3099(14)70960-0.
(https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1473309914709600)
Result is that vaccination works well against laboratory confirmed influenza.
Age weakens immune system, but does not knock it out. Besides that, human body has surplus T cells. AIDS happens only after 90%

Aelxa- in the UK we have the phrase ‘take the biscuit’ which has the same meaning- to be the worst of it’s kind or to rank first. I believe I have understood your meaning and the concentration camps do not rank first, however horrific, in the Nazi catalogue of iniquities. No suffocating gas was used to exterminate people in the concentration camps. The Nazis were shooting people via their Einsatzgruppen- paramilitary death squads-from the earliest days of their conquests starting in Poland 1939, not just towards the end of the war. I do think that ALL the Nazi actions display the worst kinds of wicked human behavior but in my view the death camps topped them all- and you know it- but you do not have your facts in order. Let me know if you need a reading list of the period of which their are many excellent histories and memoirs. My real education of the period started in the London blitz, then William Shirer, Lord Russell of Liverpool, Gerald Reitlinger, and many many more scholarly authors- and I still read one book a year on the subject. Please no more lessons in Nazi history. I am glad you attempt to educate me in the awful sensation of not being able to breath. I would think that billions have experienced the same sensation for different reasons. Poor George Floyd is a current legacy making example. I had that awful sensation just prior to my aortic valve replacement surgery a few years ago.

Leonard

Try finding any plant matter to eat when you are highly allergic to pesticides.

Half the time even the Certified Organic produce I purchase locally at the grocery store causes reactions I have to take immediate medication for.

Conventional produce sends me to the local ER for treatment.

I had the wonderful experience of being poisoned by pesticides in my 20s, and afterwards reacting to everything until the allergist figured out I was now allergic to a host of chemicals. It is a common effect that firefighters who are exposed to chemical fires also experience.

Since the closest healthfood store is a two hour drive one way, I do not purchase produce in a healthfood store. Though I did pickup a few packages of organic corn tortillas this past month at a healthfood store after seeing my neurology specialist. It was $1.00 cheaper per package than at the local grocery store.

I have to deal with finding affordable gluten-free and pesticide-free food. Hence one meal a day

Aaelxa- an example of the ‘foible’ was your ridiculous labelling of Nazi because someone doesn’t agree with your line of thought or argument. Do not misinterpret or analyze my meanings of foibles. It doesn’t square with yours. Consider your statement that others than Jews were murdered by gassing, as if i didn’t know, and linking this to ‘ letting the idea ( by me?) have free reign that it is ( was) a minor offense is so utterly insane as to cause me to wonder are you on any medication apart from that asthma?

a minor offense is so utterly insane as to cause me to wonder are you on any medication apart from that asthma?

Perhaps you haven’t noticed that cracking wise about mental illness isn’t particularly popular hereabouts.

“cracking wise about mental illness isn’t particularly popular hereabouts”

We don’t take kindly people who don’t take kindly ’round here.

I haven’t talked to JP in a while, but it seemed like things were going pretty well the last time we conversed. Thinking about moving to Portland, IIRC.

@ Narad

“Perhaps you haven’t noticed that cracking wise about mental illness isn’t particularly popular hereabouts.”

I wanted to let this one pass, as I try to avoid the topic. But, this evening, mommy made a fuss on the street trying to seek shelter with strangers from her terrorist son (i.e. me). Getting tired of that specific kind of perpetual shitstorm I have to deal with by virtue of being the son of a psychiatrist.

So I guess I’ll just have to wait for the cops.

Should I open the door, or should I let them demolish it with an axe the way they got used to with me ??

The axe nonsense is a bit more fun to watch than just surrendering to them, I say…

@ Leonard Sugarman

Do not want to be patronizing over tone policing. But some people tend to get a bit tired with this “medication” and “not thinking straight” kind of bullying. Not referring to you, but to real world nonsense: it’s not fun dealing with people that use force on you, want to know what you think when you do not want them to, and then twist any answer you give. And then write to the judge that you are “incoherent”.

F*ck them. May they rot in hell.

@F68.10:

I’ve been there. For about a decade years ago. I’ve had to pay visits to every psych ward in the state over a loved one. Gotten calls at work from landlords. Dealt with the cops. Seen that lovely activated charcoal slop on the face. Fortunately, things have finally been stabilized. I’m probably in worse shape now by comparison.

@ Narad

Getting mighty tired of living in fear for nothing at the mercy of someone else mind and all the fears she developed on so many topics. I’m the sponge that has to take all her fears and on which she acts out of many things, now. Fear included.

I’m getting tired of this kind of brainwashing.

F68

Have you tried not living with your mother?

I left my mother’s house at 18 and only returned once for 3 months after a divorce.

At your age you should have had an abode of your own long ago.

If you tried acting less anti-social then they may leave you alone. But I think it serves a purpose for you, as you say you are a misanthrope and you like it.

Your Mom has my sympathies.

@ Aelxa

“Have you tried not living with your mother?”

Did you ever try changing countries, to be sectioned by her on and on, and fighting in psych wards against her letters asking me to be repatriated just close to her across an international border and 1000 kilometers? Were you ever threatened, officially, black on white with an official stamp, by local police authorities, of lifelong sectioning because you demanded that the medical link my mother established over time with me by claiming unilaterally to be my doctor be broken so that I could regain decisional autonomy on such matters ? Do you have psych records where the word “terrorist” is written black on white thanks to mommy ?

Do you think you have any clue what you’re talking about ?

Do you want to lecture me with concentration camps about what it means to be deprived of freedom regularly and living constantly in fear for the duration of over four second world wars on the grounds that you’re a whacko and a threat to society ?

Do you have any clue what the word “HATRED” means ?

Do you believe that I am not serious when I propose myself to be the executioner of the generals that recently threatened a coup in my country ?

Give me a break, Aelxa.

Leonard

The Nazi part came in after a person used the Neo-Nazi catch phrase “Holocaust monger”, and then proceeded with his usual verbal barrage.

And I never said gassing someone was a minor offense, instead I said “it took the cake”, which in America means it was completely over the top.

I have no idea what you are getting riled up about. Perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote.

You said that Nazis does not sell holocaust. Not very historically correct.
As for my usual verbal barrage, you do not answer any of my points.

Aarno

Neo-Nazis do not “sell” the Holocaust, they spend their time denying it ever happened.

You have no points as far as I can sell, other than trying to claim an English word means the opposite of it’s normal usage.

Do yourself a favor google the word “Holocaust monger”. You find it completely absent except for usage on Neo-Nazi sites, and in reference to people who have Nazi sympathies calling Jews as “Holocaust mongers”.

I actually do not read neonazi sites. Nazis did very much sell holocaust, it was one of their main goals.

Aarno

Did you google “Holocaust monger” yet?

Did you find it be used to describe anyone denying the Holocaust took place? Did you even find more than one or two sites with the words “Holocaust monger” in use?

“Nazis did very much sell holocaust, it was one of their main goals.”

No, the Nazi goals were to eliminate “Untermenschen” or in English terms “Subordinate Peoples”.

The word Holocaust did not even come into usage until after the Nazis were defeated and the fact of the Concentration Camps became public information.

So I hope by now you googled “Holocaust monger” and learned it’s correct meaning as a derogatory term directed toward Jewish people and used by Neo-Nazis.

@Aelxa As I said I DO NOT READ NEONAZI SITES (do you get that?)
So your point is nazis did not sell holocaust because holocaust is later terminology ? It is current English for shoah, or Die Endlösung der Judenfrage

What medications were you thinking of as possibilities? Lisinopril? Gabapentin? Loperamide? Omeprazole? Inquiring minds want to know.

Narad- I wouldn’t want to attempt usurpation of the expertise of the medical commentariat on this blog who would have to diagnose or hypothesize an illness and the possible drugs to alleviate said disorder. Also what among those drugs could cause disordered thinking. I just hypothesized that some medication may behaving that effect. If none such exists then I concede that Aalexa must have other causes for her errors of facts and reasoning. Methinks you are trying some point scoring, and are not an enquiring mind, because you made an error in your ‘unadulterated bag of shit’ comment and my response to it.

Methinks you are trying some point scoring, and are not an enquiring mind, because you made an error in your ‘unadulterated bag of shit’ comment and my response to it.

Well, it wouldn’t be misplaced here. Sorry, tone police.

Narad-I do not suggest you or anybody shouldn’t attempt ‘point scoring’, I am simply try to question or expose why you are taking such an interest in my suggestion, or hypothesis of possible side effects of medication causing some ‘loose’ thinking. If you, the mighty editor, feel ‘nettled’ by my correcting you in your use of the word ‘unadulterated’ in the context of a ‘bag of shit’ in your comment to Scott Allen then I could recommend a soothing lotion. I make no suggestion that any of what occurs in this forum should or must be altered, although I have once hypothesized that the results may not have the anticipated positive effects on the ‘doubting fence sitters’. We are all -or most are -grown up and have a choice whether to engage or not. ‘Tone police’ is a nice label but I don’t accept it as belonging to me.

Aelxa- Leonard Sugarman was explaining, or correcting YOU, NOT F68.10 about your factual errors regards Nazi concentratrion camps and extermination or death camps. Also the meaning of ‘take the cake’.

Leonard

Leonard is talking about himself in the third person……

Perhaps you forgot your meds?

You also say they did not use gas in the Concentration camps, and then you write they did use gas in the Concentration camps. Then you say the Concentration camps and death camps are two different things…when in actuality they were the same thing.

They concentrated all those people in a camp and then proceeded to kill as many as they could as fast as possible. And some they killed more slowly through starvation, or experimentation, etc.

Arbeit macht man frei…..right and I have a bridge I can sell you too..or at least a better med.

@ Aelxa

“Then you say the Concentration camps and death camps are two different things…when in actuality they were the same thing.”

Different things. Come on. Get real.

France did not exterminate jews in its concentration camps after the war. Not nice living conditions in places like Gurs and Le Vernet. But saying that these are the same than extermination camps is ludicrous. During the occupation, trains went from these concentration camps to extermination camps. True. But concentrations predated WW2 and some functioned after WW2. They were not extermination camps.

A concentration camp need not be an extermination camp… Seriously…

I think France had one concentration camp that worked more or less like an extermination camp. Natzweiler-Struthof. Execution camp would be more accurate.

But nothing compares to extermination camps such as Treblinka, Majdanek, Auschwitz, Chelmno, Sobibor or Belzec.

F68

I identified the concentration camps as being NAZI concentration camps during WW2.

Perhaps you are confusing Detention camps like the US used during WW2 to detain Japanese people and Japanese-Americans, with concentration camps where people tended to die.

They are two different things which are operated differently.

I am sure the French camps were Detention camps, or did they tend to kill people there?

@ Aelxa

I’m not an expert on French camps. What people tend to forget about these camps is that they existed before WW2 because they also held unwanted refugees from the Spanish civil war. Not jews, then. They kept operating including for a rather short period after the war. They also stuck the jews there, not merely for the purpose of collaborating with the nazis, but also because jews fled and had to be put somewhere… then, trains did move from French camps to German extermination camps when France was semi-“occupied”. So they were integrated with the German nexus of camps. Though not quite at the same scale as elsewhere, as far as I know. Natzweiler-Struthof is kind of an exception, as killings went there. But they were mostly killings of political prisoners. Jews were also killed there, but not for mass extermination. More for “medical”… stuff. More or less sporadically. They even made a collection of jewish corpses for “scientific” purposes, which indeed is depraved. But it wasn’t exactly an extermination camp. More of an execution camp. What sticks in the mind of the French is not however that camps concerned jews (Struthof is mostly out of the French psyche of the war). What sticks in the mind of the French was that Germany required coerced French workforce in these camps. (STO: Service du Travail Obligatoire: Service of Compulsory Labour) They are very much tied to an image of humiliation at the hands of the German foes with which the French were hostile for many reasons (Alsace-Lorraine, for instance, the German-speaking part of France: these people, and part of my family, were considered germans by the germans and forcibly enrolled on the Russian front). These various camps stick in the psyche more than the Struthof, the only killing camp in France. In Alsace, unsurprisingly… The Spanish civil war is why you do have quite a number of concentration camps near the Franco-Spanish border.

@ Aelxa

Wiki: “Le Vernet Internment Camp, or Camp Vernet, was a concentration camp in Le Vernet, Ariège, near Pamiers, in the French