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About that Salk Institute paper on the “deadly” COVID-19 spike protein

Antivaxxers have been working overtime lately to claim that the spike protein used as the antigen in COVID-19 vaccines is deadly, and they’ll cite any old tenuous evidence based on a misunderstood (by them) study to do it.

Those of us who routinely counter antivaccine disinformation on social media have noticed a new antivax trope popping up again and again and again. It’s the claim that the spike protein produced by the mRNA in the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines (and now the adenovirus-based AztraZeneca and Johnson & Johnson vaccines) is highly toxic in and of itself outside of its association with the coronavirus infection itself. The intent is obvious: To portray COVID-19 vaccines as more dangerous than the infection. This new narrative by antivaxxers has led to their pointing to cherry picked studies with exaggerated findings, such as a study purporting to show that spike protein might cause pulmonary hypertension in the future or fantastical claim based on no science that those vaccinated with these vaccines “shed” spike protein, which then, miasma-like, poisons surrounding people to make them sick and, if they are women, screw up their menstrual cycles and even cause miscarriages.

They’re still at it.

Most recently, antivaxxers have been pointing to a study from the Salk Institute, UC-San Diego and Xi’an Jiaotong University in China. Behold Alex Berenson, the “pandemic’s wrongest man,” crowing about the study:

A few of my readers have asked me about this study, and I keep coming across antivaxxers crowing about it on Twitter. Misunderstanding a study like this, a study that the vast majority of them obviously haven’t read, much less understood, to spread antivaccine disinformation does get on my nerves after a while. So I responded.

Before I go on, the most obvious refutation to the claim that spike protein from COVID-19 vaccines is dangerous remains simple. Over 240 million doses of these vaccines have been administered thus far in the US alone, many more worldwide. If, as Berenson claimed, spike protein were so very, very toxic by themselves outside of the context of viral infection and at the concentrations produced in the body by the vaccines, we would have expected to see way more evidence of a safety signal related to vascular and clotting problems than we have. Right now, for instance, the J&J vaccine has been associated with a rare kind of clot at a frequency of roughly one or two-in-a-million. That’s not good evidence of horrific vascular toxicity due to COVID-19 vaccine spike protein. Of course, this leaves the question of whether, even theoretically, spike protein itself might be toxic, but as a practical matter, at least in the case of the level of spike protein made by the vaccines, the question has been answered with a resounding no.

But back to Alex Berenson’s claim.

It turns out that this study on a preprint server has been published in Circulation Research. It also turns out—surprise! surprise!—not definitely not to be “smoking gun” evidence for Berenson’s claims. Unlike the case of many papers cherry picked by antivaxxers to support their claims, it’s not that the paper is horrible, either. It’s not. It’s pretty decent, actually, at least as a preliminary, primarily observational study. Even more amusing, in it the authors expressly describe how their work actually demonstrates why vaccines that use spike protein as the antigen are so effective. One of them has also appeared on Twitter to take antivaxxers to task for misusing their study. (I’ll save these tidbits for near the end of the post.) It just amuses me that the antivaxxers citing this study have obviously not read the study itself, nor have they considered the background science and knowledge behind the study. They’ve just read the press release. What do you expect, though? They’re antivaxxers.

Since it’s the Salk Institute press release that’s doing most of the damage providing fodder for antivaxxers, let’s look at it first, and then I’ll look at the study:

Scientists have known for a while that SARS-CoV-2’s distinctive “spike” proteins help the virus infect its host by latching on to healthy cells. Now, a major new study shows that they also play a key role in the disease itself.

The paper, published on April 30, 2021, in Circulation Research, also shows conclusively that COVID-19 is a vascular disease, demonstrating exactly how the SARS-CoV-2 virus damages and attacks the vascular system on a cellular level. The findings help explain COVID-19’s wide variety of seemingly unconnected complications, and could open the door for new research into more effective therapies.

As the press release itself acknowledges, the concept that COVID-19 is primarily a vascular disease is not new. The observation that COVID-19 patients suffered from clotting problems led to this sort of speculation early in the pandemic.

Then:

While the findings themselves aren’t entirely a surprise, the paper provides clear confirmation and a detailed explanation of the mechanism through which the protein damages vascular cells for the first time. There’s been a growing consensus that SARS-CoV-2 affects the vascular system, but exactly how it did so was not understood. Similarly, scientists studying other coronaviruses have long suspected that the spike protein contributed to damaging vascular endothelial cells, but this is the first time the process has been documented.

Maybe, but let’s look at the paper itself. The first thing that those of you with access to the paper will notice is how short it is: Three pages, one figure. That’s because it’s not a full research paper, but rather a research letter. As a result, there’s no detailed Methods section, and the results are very briefly described (much too briefly, for my liking). To be honest, for some of the experiments, due to the brevity of the paper, I had a bit of a hard time making heads or tails of what, exactly, the investigators did. I’ll do my best trying to explain, however.

In brief, the the researchers used a “pseudovirus” that was surrounded by a “crown” of spike protein, like the coronavirus, but did not contain actual virus, dubbed Pseu-Spike by the authors. What is a pseudovirus? A reasonable question. In brief, a pseudovirus is a construct that has the external proteins of the virus of interest. There are a variety of pseudoviruses now, as described in this article in The Scientist:

Among these, researchers turned to models of the pathogen such as pseudoviruses and chimeric viruses that can be studied safely in labs with lower biosafety level (BSL) clearance than required for studying the wildtype version, in an effort to expand the study of the novel coronavirus. Pseudoviruses don’t replicate, rendering them harmless, but by replacing their surface envelope proteins with those of SARS-CoV-2, researchers can glean insights into the ways the pathogen infects cells.

And:

Pseudoviruses were first developed in the 1960s, after scientists began studying a vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV) isolated from cattle. In addition to replicating well in culture, they later learned that its surface protein, VSV-G, facilitates entry into all eukaryotic cells, making the virus a useful vector not only as a pseudovirus but as a ferry to deliver DNA into cells for therapeutic purposes. The first Ebola vaccine was developed using a VSV platform, and more recently, the virus has been engineered to seek out and destroy cancer cells

HIV-based platforms, which came about in the 1980s, have since replaced VSV as the most common model for developing both pseudo- and chimeric viruses. Unlike VSV’s negative-strand RNA genome that must be transcribed once inside the cell, HIV’s positive-strand RNA genome can instantly begin translation, making pseudoviruses based on HIV faster to produce. HIV-based model viruses have now been used in many of the same applications as VSV, with scientists applying them to the study of diseases such as AIDS, SARS, MERS, and influenza.

Also, compared with natural virus, a pseudovirus can only infect cells in a single round, has broad host range, high titer, and is not easily inactivated by serum complement.

Unfortunately, it is not clear from the paper which of these platforms was used to produce the pseudovirus in the experiments or how that pseudovirus was developed and produced. This is the sort of information that a full-length research paper would describe in the Methods section and it’s important information for determining whether the pseudovirus used was likely to be a good model. In another issue with this paper, the authors also do not describe the “mock virus” that they used as a control or how it was constructed. As a result, I find it very difficult to interpret their results. In fairness, some of this confusion might be because I am not highly knowledgeable about this particular system and don’t have the background knowledge about methodology that the authors clearly assume that the reader possesses. On the other hand, in a paper this in a journal like Circulation Research, which is not a virology journal, and particularly given that this is a paper that was likely to make the news and be misused by antivaxxers after its release, explanatory details that allow scientists from other fields with knowledge of molecular biology (but who are not experts in this field) to understand what was done are critical. A Research Letter does not accomplish this.

What are their results, though?

Basically, the authors took pseudovirus or mock virus and instilled it into the tracheas of Syrian hamsters, three animals per experimental group. Another aspect of this study caught my eye, namely the amount of virus used, 5 x 108 pfu. For those of you not knowing what “pfu” stands for, it stands for “plaque-forming units.” Basically it’s a measure of the number of viable virus particles, virus particles that can infect cells and cause a plaque on a confluent layer of cells. That’s half a billion particles, far, far more of a viral challenge than the amount of virus launching any “natural” infection by SARs-CoV-2.

Using what is a highly artificial system, the authors compared the levels of a whole slate of protein markers related to cell signaling and oxidative stress in the mock- and Pseu-Spike-treated hamsters, as well as the histology of the lungs. I won’t go into detail about all of the markers examined, but rather will step back to take a longer view because it is not important for a lay person to understand all the phosphorylation of this protein or ubiquitination of that protein measured. (It’s also easy to get lost in the weeds of a study like this.) As stated, the authors found signs of inflammation in the alveoli (air sacs) of the Pseu-Spike-treated lungs, including thickened walls and inflammatory cells. They measured the levels of various proteins they deemed relevant:

AMPK (AMP-activated protein kinase) phosphorylates ACE2 Ser-680, MDM2 (murine double minute 2) ubiquitinates ACE2 Lys-788, and crosstalk between AMPK and MDM2 determines the ACE2 level.4 In the damaged lungs, levels of pAMPK (phospho-AMPK), pACE2 (phospho-ACE2), and ACE2 decreased but those of MDM2 increased (Figure [B], i). Furthermore, complementary increased and decreased phosphorylation of eNOS (endothelial NO synthase) Thr-494 and Ser-1176 indicated impaired eNOS activity. These changes of pACE2, ACE2, MDM2 expression, and AMPK activity in endothelium were recapitulated by in vitro experiments using pulmonary arterial ECs infected with Pseu-Spike which was rescued by treatment with N-acetyl-L-cysteine, a reactive oxygen species inhibitor (Figure [B], ii).

Translation: Compared to mock virus, Pseu-Spike altered signaling due to the ACE2 receptor, which is not surprising given that it’s been known for a year now that spike protein latches onto the ACE2 receptor in order to get SARS-CoV-2 into the cell. As a result, there was a lower level of ACE2 in the hamster lung tissue treated with Pseu-Spike, although looking at the Western blots in Figure 1B I am not particularly impressed by the magnitude of the decrease in protein level.

Also observed in the Pseu-Spike-treated hamster lung was decreased activity of eNOS, an enzyme that generates nitric oxide, as well as damage to the mitochondria, the “power plants” of the cell. The authors also did the same experiments in cell culture alone using pulmonary vascular endothelial cells (the cells the line the inside of the arteries in the lung), reporting that they recapitulated their findings, although they used spike protein at a rather high concentration (4 μg/ml). They also tested whether similar changes occurred in vascular endothelial cells genetically engineered to make a more stable and less stable version of ACE2. They did, although this is only suggestive, not slam dunk evidence, that it is the spike protein-induced degradation of ACE2 that results in these intracellular changes. The authors also reported that in pulmonary arteries isolated from the hamsters vasodilation induced by a drug called nitroprusside was not affected by Pseu-Spike, but the vasodilation caused by acetylcholine was impaired. Nitroprusside works by breaking down in the presence of oxyhemoglobin to produce, among other things, nitric oxide, while acetylcholine binds to specific protein receptors on the cell surface.

Indeed, I hate papers this short (e.g., some Nature or Science papers, which can be even shorter than this) because I can never quite figure out what the authors did; this is one of the rare cases of a paper that to me screams out for an online Supplemental Data and Supplemental Figures section, and I say this as someone who generally despises the trend to dump all sorts of data into supplemental sections.

My annoyances aside, let’s, for the sake of argument, take the results at face value and assume that this study shows what the authors say it shows, namely that spike protein damages endothelium, “manifested by impaired mitochondrial function and eNOS activity.” and can cause oxidative stress that destabilizes the ACE2 receptor, leading to lower levels of the receptor. The authors themselves note that by decreasing the level of ACE2, spike protein could actually decrease the infectivity of SARs-CoV-2, given that the coronavirus needs to bind to ACE2 to get into cells, while speculating that the dysfunction of endothelial cells could result in endotheliitis, or inflammation of the endothelium that more than makes up for the decreased infectivity.

But here’s the kicker, taken right from the final paragraph of the paper:

Collectively, our results suggest that the S protein-exerted EC damage overrides the decreased virus infectivity. This conclusion suggests that vaccination-generated antibody and/or exogenous antibody against S protein not only protects the host from SARS-CoV-2 infectivity but also inhibits S protein imposed endothelial injury.

In other words, the vaccine could be protective not just against infection by SARS-CoV-2 but also against endothelial injury from the spike protein.

I just want to reiterate again that this is a contrived system. It’s far from a worthless system, as pseudovirus systems have value in studying the role of spike protein in the pathogenesis of COVID-19. However, given the crapton of pseudovirus used in this hamster model, I really question any relevance of this system to vaccine safety issues with respect to mRNA- or adenovirus-based vaccines that produce the spike protein as an antigen. Why? The mRNA or adenovirus from the vaccines does not distribute extensively given that it’s an intramuscular injection, and the spike protein is highly unlikely to attain concentrations in the circulation anywhere near the high levels produced by the model used in these experiments. Moreover, the spike protein from the vaccine is not attached in a crown-like array on a virus particle (or pseudovirus particle), but rather exists as naked single protein molecules, and, as I described before, it’s unclear that in this form spike protein, compared to the “crown of spikes” that gives coronaviruses their name, is anywhere near as effective at causing these downstream effects in cells. Add to that the fact that mRNA, even the modified mRNA in the vaccine, doesn’t hang around very long and therefore doesn’t generate spike protein for very long. (Doubters should consider this: Why do the mRNA vaccines both require a second dose 3-4 weeks after the first dose if, as many antivaxxers claim, the vaccines crank out spike protein indefinitely?)

Indeed, one of authors points this very issue on Twitter:

I’ll conclude, as I have so often, by complaining about the press offices of universities hawking studies like this. The study itself, as I said, is interesting, but not evidence that existing vaccines that use spike protein as the antigen are unsafe or damage the vasculature. Add to that, again, the fact that >240 million doses of these vaccines have been administered in the US alone, all without a signal suggesting that they cause any sort of spike protein-induced blood vessel damage of the sort reported in this model. Unfortunately, the Salk Institute press release appears to have been written without any consideration as to how to avoid making it easy fodder for antivaxxers to use as propaganda. In the past, this sort of lapse was forgivable. In the middle of a pandemic, it is not, particularly given that on social media very few read the actual study while most read the no more than the press release or even much beyond the headline.

In fact, I have an idea for authors and university press officials from here on out. Any study of the spike protein’s role in the pathogenesis of COVID-19 should include in the study itself and in any press releases a strong disclaimer emphasizing how the results of the study do not say anything about the safety of COVID-19 vaccines, for the sorts of reasons I have listed above. Consider it a useful “pre-bunking” of the disinformation antivaxxers use basically any study about spike protein to produce these days.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

220 replies on “About that Salk Institute paper on the “deadly” COVID-19 spike protein”

If you are so sure the COVID-19 vaccines are safe…I am still trying to figure out why there has been a MASSIVE increase in deaths reported to VAERS from the COVID-19 shots. Not a modest increase–a huge and unprecedented increase. Over 40% of all deaths ever reported to VAERS in its 30+year history have been reported in the last 4 months, from the COVID-19 vaccines.

I stopped by here last week to get some ideas on possible answers to this question, which I did get. I looked into them to the extent I could, and found none held water. None of our public health authorities have written any kind of analysis of this issue, and studies about COVID-19 vaccine safety avoid it.
http://www.virginiastoner.com/writing/2021/5/4/the-deadly-covid-19-vaccine-coverup

Is this person suggesting that at a time we are engaged in an unusually large vaccination campaign, compared to the past, coupled with strong official efforts to increase reporting to VAERs (and some, though probably trivial numerically, intentional reporting to vaers by antivaccine activist), seeing an increase in VAERS report is surprising?

(And yes, I know the person tried to say vaccines numbers has not gone up. But since she doesn’t actually have access to the number of vaccines administered outside Covid-19 in this year, she’s basically making that up, especially given that we are before flu season, the only vaccine recommended for the general population),

Misinformation of the type you posted undermines informed consent.

Trying to point to raw VAERS reports numbers, ignoring the fact that they’re investigated and analyzed and examined and have shown no signals is an effort to misinform, even if it’s the result of lack of knowledge and understanding.

Dorit Reiss, your theories are interesting and all, but where is your evidence? Why are there no articles or research studies about the massive increase in deaths reported to VAERS? Except mine, of course…

Dorit Reiss said:

“Misinformation of the type you posted undermines informed consent.

“Trying to point to raw VAERS reports numbers, ignoring the fact that they’re investigated and analyzed and examined and have shown no signals is an effort to misinform, even if it’s the result of lack of knowledge and understanding.”

In other words, HIDING the massive increase in VAERS death reports from vaccine customers is actually NECESSARY for informed consent. That’s a hoot. I guess you gotta hope so, because I’ll bet 99% of them were totally unaware of it when they consented to the COVID-19 shot.

Naturally, I would have expected a few of the many pro-vax experts in the COVID-19 market (like you) to have written articles (like mine) about why the massive increase in deaths reported to VAERS is nothing at all to worry about. If it were possible, that is. But, NADA.

We could have avoided so much drama and controversy if the manufacturers had just created a traditional vaccine composed of the virus itself, as is done with influenza. Especially with a vax campaign this large (most if not all of the planet) tried-and-true would have been a safer bet.

You’re either very naive or disingenuous. (I can’t decide which.) No, no we couldn’t have “avoided so much drama and controversy.” Had existing COVID-19 vaccines been made the “old-fashioned way,” antivaxxers would have demonized them just as badly using most of the same tropes. The only misinformation they wouldn’t be able to use would be the “gene therapy” distortion.

Did it ever occur to you that there’s a reason why the first two successful vaccines were based on mRNA/lipid nanoparticle technology. Making coronavirus vaccines the “old-fashioned way” has been tried without much success. Moreover, mRNA has the huge advantage of being far more easily scalable to make huge quantities of vaccine and flexible so that the mRNA can be rapidly changed without having to go through the entire approval process again to cover variants. Indeed, I’d be willing to bet that flu vaccines will soon be based on mRNA technology given the success of COVID-19 vaccines. The technology used to make flu vaccines is primitive, dating back to the 1950s. Seriously, they still grow the virus that is killed to make the vaccine in millions of eggs! Also, before the pandemic, antivaxxers demonized the flu vaccine every year, in particular 11 years ago during the H1N1 pandemic.

@ NWO Reporter

New World Order, paranoid conspiracy theorists? Nothing will change your mind; but I’ll repeat:

Rise of antivaccinationists. Numerous blogs, social media
Lack of understanding how vaccine approved and how quickly made it to market. First, both phase 2 and 3 trials were run simultaneously for some. But the phase 3 studies included 30,000 or more participants, did follow-ups and continue them, and they did, despite lies, clearly include both minor and serious adverse events, including deaths. And they produced vaccines while clinical trials were being conducted. So ready if approved; but if not approved, government promised to reimburse. Earlier, once vaccine approved could take many months to produce. And though first mRNA vaccine approved, lots of research before on them. I was volunteer; but only after I reviewed my textbooks in molecular biology, genetics, and found every study done on mRNA vaccines. All of the above allowed antivaccinationists to play on people uneducated unscientific fears.
VAERS: anyone can submit. Nothing blocked. Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc. Rooster crows, sun comes up. Does rooster crow cause sun to rise? Given all the antivaccinationist publicity, if someone dies after vaccine, people remember vaccine and, thus report. However, CDC has dedicated teams who investigate each and every report, including obtaining medical records. For instance, approximately 2,500 Americans die every day from cardiovascular disease, so if someone received COVID vaccine and died, say 10 days later, 25,000 American would have died before COVID or COVID vaccine existed. CDC looks at medical records closely. During criminal investigations, sometimes police may bring in numerous suspects; but doesn’t mean even one will be found to be the culprit. People like you and other antivaccinationists would probably just want to throw all in prison directly, save money on further investigation and trial, etc.

Again, nothing I say will change the mind of a paranoid conspiracy theorist, so why don’t you just crawl back under your rock.

Dr. Harrison, your theories are interesting and all, but where is your evidence? You may be willing to assume a “benign” reason for the massive increase in vaccine deaths reported to VAERS based on your prior knowledge, but we are dealing here with an entirely unprecedented situation–an increase so enormous that calling it “massive” is conservative. Why has no one made an organized attempt to analyze the situation? Why don’t you? You’ve already gotten your paper half-written in these comments–now all you need is the data and analyses to go with it.

You know oddly enough I had someone else give me the “anyone can submit to VAERS” excuse as to why I should discount what I read there. Many are noticing there’s far more deaths for Covid vaccines then there are for ‘regular” ones. The person who gave me this rhetoric had gotten nasty side effects from a Covid vaccine that very day with tingling and numbness in their legs, and still believed in the vaccines. What’s scary is I answered back well if VAERS can’t be trusted then who is keeping the numbers to keep up with the side effects and patterns then? You seriously expect someone who gets a blood clot or other disabling illness to get “help” from the CDC. That’s laughable, first of all most very ill people don’t have the time or energy and from what I have seen those facing side effects are being censored in endless public venues. There’s no where really to turn for them.

You know what’s funny is I believed the narrative until I noticed the extreme hand of censorship and then it woke me up. Something didn’t add up here. I believe 20 years ago, there’s no way these poor quality “vaccines” would have passed muster, their inability to provide true immunity or limit transmission fully being part of that picture. I sometimes think America has grown too corrupt and science too corporate owned and profit influenced to really create the level of scientific success we had before. Vaccines used to even have the expectation of actually working and being safe. This “gene therapy” they call “vaccines”, that don’t even have lasting power, are abysmal.

500poundpeep

Did you ask your friend if they were going to report their problem with the pins-n-needles legs side-effects to VAERS?

If no one reports these effects the pattern can not be discerned.

It’s a death vaccine & you know it. Quit lying.

MANY TV doctors & other LIARS will suffer in the end for promoting this –

DEATH VAXXXXX.

The possibility that the spike protein produced by the mRNA can cause side effects could explain some of the infrequent but unusual symptoms. Many develop local pain at the injection site. In some patients the vaccine nano particles may not stay localized but travel elsewhere in the body where the inflammation could result in more damage, such as the CNS. Perhaps a safer way to vaccinate would be to inject into the biceps muscle with a tourniquet applied. The nano particles would be more likely to stay at the injection site. The spike proteins would be produced in the muscle itself. I don’t think it is safe to conclude that the side effects experienced by some people in the days following vaccination are a product of their imaginations.

Who says that the side effects are a product of imagination? Don’t forget, its only a side effect if it’s LINKED to the vaccination rather than occurring in close temporal proximity.

A sore arm would be normal, given you’ve just had a needle and some fluid stabbed into it. Also, the immune reaction itself would cause varying levels of pain and feeling a bit rubbish. I had a mildly sore arm and 24 hours of feeling a little crap. My partner had loads of muscle pain and felt terrible.

As for all the mega-deaths and spontaneously giving birth to two headed calfs etc. I’d take it more seriously if I though the people doing the shouting were competent.

1) Vaccines aren’t given in the bicep, they’re given in the deltoid.
2) Vaccines aren’t given into the bloodstream, so I don’t know what value a tourniquet would be? Where would you apply the tourniquet? At the elbow or shoulder? How long would you leave it on, knowing that a full tourniquet is very damaging?

@NWO Reporter
“Over 40% of all deaths ever reported to VAERS in its 30+year history have been reported in the last 4 months, from the COVID-19 vaccines.”
Um, you are aware that this particular mass vaccination campaign involved first and foremost elderly and frail people? You know, people who have a rather limited life expectancy due to natural causes?

So yes, it is to be expected that many thousands of these people die every week — and that includes many people who have been recently vaccinated. Same thing happened in Norway: reports of lots of (very) elderly people dying withing one or two weeks after being vaccinated. No connection with the vaccinations could be established, and most causes of death were consistent with pre-existing conditions. Old people die, that’s how things go.

Anyway, I have a new homework assignment for you that might cheer you up: figure out the number of Covid-19 deaths vs. vaccination rates by age group, including trends, over the past 4 months.

“You know, people who have a rather limited life expectancy due to natural causes?”

Richard Rasker do you often critique articles without reading them? Or did you make a special exception for me?

Toldja.

@NWO Reporter
“Richard Rasker do you often critique articles without reading them? Or did you make a special exception for me?”
Do you often blindly pursue your own line of ‘reasoning’, completely ignoring what the other person says? Or did you make a special exception for me? (These questions of course are purely rhetorical, as this thread already shows the answers to be a resounding “yes” and “no”, respectively.)

Anyway, I didn’t critique anything. I merely provided the simplest explanation for your claim that relatively many people who received a Covid-19 vaccine were reported to have died.

The special exception I made for you is that I actually responded to you, even with all the red flags signalling that you are a conspiracy believer, an antivaccine crank, and possibly a troll. You most certainly are not looking for answers.

CDC does study VAERS reports:
Shimabukuro T. Allergic reactions including anaphylaxis after receipt of the first dose of Moderna COVID-19 vaccine – United States, December 21, 2020-January 10, 2021. Am J Transplant. 2021;21(3):1326-1331. doi:10.1111/ajt.16517

Thank you.

Does any of you with experience in publishing in science journals have a sense for why and how authors choose the short research letter format, compared to a full article?

I do appreciate the authors speaking up, too.

That’s an interesting question. If you look at the single figure, it’s what I like to call a “mega-figure.” I mean, it’s got eight panels, some of which have four images. There’s enough material there for at least three figures, if not four. Four good figures can make up a respectable short paper in another format, and if they needed to pad it out they could have added a couple of figures verifying expression of their pseudovirus or something like that. So I’m not sure why they chose such a brief format, particularly given that there are so many authors.

Vaccines can certainly be profitable.

Now imagine how Big Pharma would be cleaning up if there were NO Covid-19 vaccines. Drugs to treat Covid-19 are big business.

“in a report focused on antiviral drugs, Morningstar forecast more than $10 billion in sales potential for authorized treatments led by Eli Lilly’s bamlanivimab and Regeneron’s two-antibody combination or “cocktail” REGEN-COV (casirivimab and imdevimab).”

http://genengnews.com/a-lists/top-7-best-selling-covid-19-vaccines-and-drugs-of-2020/

That’s just two treatments. Add in all the others plus what’s coming down the pipeline, in addition to the vast amounts spent on drugs and other treatments for supportive care, and you’ll get a sense of the revenue that drug makers are foregoing in order to produce vaccines.

“Imagine how Big Pharma would be cleaning up if there were NO Covid-19 vaccines.”

This ‘skeptic trope’ is NOT a good argument against accusations of the “they’re just pushing vaccines for profit” ilk. Because, of course, for most intents and purposes, there is no monolithic Big Pharma, but rather a range of pharmaceutical firms that compete against one another. Pfizer isn’t foregoing profits in the treatment and supportive care market by producing a vaccine, because there’s no guarantee they’d get that business vs. it going to Lily, Regeneron and others.

Even just employing it as a heuristic, repeating the monolithic Big Pharma concept reinforces it, and is unwise as such.

Dr. Joel’s arguments about where vaccines sit in various firm’s business models, relative profitability, etc. are ultimately more persuasive, as they are based in reality, however less pithy they may make for Tweet level comments.

While we’re on the subject of Big Pharma(s), I shall point out again that the pharma sector contributes heavily to Republican politicians, including those who have coddled pediatric anti-vax in the past, and those who are doing various forms of COVID denial, anti-vax, anti-mask yadda yadda now. But then, these Republicans are pro-business, anti-regulation, and not inclined to do anything to rein in piratical profiteering wherever the pharmas do try to engage in it.

Lest anyone doubt that Pfizer has a significant greedhead scumbag quotient, as a former resident of New London, CT, I can assure you that they do.

@ Dangerous Bacon

Yep, right on, the companies would make far more for treatments. Hospitalization would cost, doctors bills, and for those still working, loss of income, etc. So, the overall cost to us and the economy would be exponentially more than for the vaccines.

However, funeral directors would have a thriving business.

Bacon

Seeing as the vaccines do not totally prevent infection, the pharm companies are still making money on various treatments. They are nor forgoing any money, they are collecting on both vaccines and treatments right at this moment.

Do you really believe J&J has stopped producing their other products to just make vaccines?

@ Aelxa Vaccines did prevent smallpox and polio. Pharma do not sell antiviral therapies targeting them.

Aarno

You just come out of left field with this comment……

“@ Aelxa Vaccines did prevent smallpox and polio. Pharma do not sell antiviral therapies targeting them.”

We are talking about the COVID-19 “vaccine” injections and various medications being used to treat COVID-19 making the Pharma companies lots of money.

Your comment has nothing to do with COVID-19, merely a sign of your need to say SOMETHING anytime I write a comment.

Your comment has nothing to do with COVID-19, merely a sign of your need to say SOMETHING anytime I write a comment.

It certainly would be better if no one did.

Narad

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣!!!!!!!

Me to Aarno…
“Your comment has nothing to do with COVID-19, merely a sign of your need to say SOMETHING anytime I write a comment.”

Narad…

“It certainly would be better if no one did.”

I guess your name is No One now, Narad.

You just could not resist…..mmmmm 😇.

Aarno

Remdesevir is an antiviral.

Do you really think SARS-CoV-2 is the only virus on Earth plaguing humans?

There are alot of other viruses out there available to use Remdesevir against.

And Israel is only one very tiny country, the rest of the World is still fighting like hell. Did you see India lately.

Oh, and another fully vaccinated US doctor who had gotten the two doses of the Pfizer “vaccine”, an infectious disease specialist in fact, just died after catching COVID-19 in India when he went there to help family.

It is interesting to note that two people in the US MidWest have been found infected with the India variant already, which has I believe about 17 gene changes on the protein spike. These are two people who never went to India.

I love how the US is not allowing travel to the US from India…. except for US citizens and Permanent Residents.

Doesn’t that remind us of the “No travel from China” travel ban back in February 2020???Except for US citizens and Permanent Residents of course. Who brought the virus home, of course.

The government appears not to have learned the lesson yet, NoTravel No Matter Who You Are!!!!!!! Or else complete strictly monitored two week quarantine in a virtual prison when you come home, and if you break quarantine you will pay!!!

Do not count out Remdesivir yet, you may need it soon even with your vaccination.

@Aelxa I though we speak about COVID. Remdesivir is FDA approved for COVID.
Antivirals are very virus specific, I am afraid that most of them have are use against COVID
Did you miss the fact that mRNA vaccines are 95% effective ? It is not 100%. I am sure that you would prefer 95% possibility win to 0%. I certainly do.

You just could not resist…..mmmmm

I was talking about you, not to you, F*ckwit. Mind your place.

^ Whoops. I thought the first one (from the iPad) didn’t go through last night. Sorry about the dup.

@ Kay West

Compared to profits and total revenue, the profits from vaccines are a small part. The current pandemic aside, on average world-wide sales of vaccines account for about 2 – 3% of total pharmaceutical revenues and vaccines are much more expensive to produce.However, drug companies make much more profit on statins, insulin, etc. because people have to use on daily basis and the profit margins are much higher.

And if COVID dies down, a basically short-term profit, some continued; but not at current high levels.

However, it really doesn’t matter that they made a profit. Do you expect any company/corporation to produce something for nothing or at cost? If you are against profit and have some family member or friend with diabetes, I suggest you recommend them NOT use it since the company makes a profit, actual obscene profits.

One extreme example is epi-pens, developed in 1950s by monies from U.S. military, cost about $10 to manufacture and currently sell two for $400. However, in UK and other nations sell two for $50 and companies still make money.

The bottom line is that overwhelming evidence shows that the COVID vaccines save lives, save hospitalizations, save people from long COVID, etc. I would rather a company make a profit on something that saves lives than much of the stuff that Americans waste money on.

However, the FDA has the power, but doesn’t implemented, to limit profits on approved drugs, etc. And the New York Times article clearly indicates their profit margin was way to high; so, FDA should act; but doesn’t change just how incredibly effective the vaccine is. But the profit margin just another example of how our government more in pockets of corporations rather than protecting interests of citizens.

Well I guess I should be happy that Joel didn’t call me “DEARY”

You really need to read up on the EPIPEN. The reason the cost of the EPIPEN went up was that Richard Durbin in 2013 sponsored a law which made it almost mandatory that all school should have EPIPENs (not the generic kind but the brand name drug, EPIPEN had spent over 4 Million dollars to get this law passed) in every school. At the same time the FDA had a back log of over 4,000 generic drugs waiting for approval four of these were generic EPIPENs .

But to my point on Pfizer making 900 Million dollars in 3 months from vaccines was to point out that everyone will need boosters and will ensure a continuing cash flow.

As you always talk of your minority friends and the fact that you are Jewish etc. etc. You claim to read mountains of books, articles, research guess you missed these little tidbits
“Why Every Racist Mentions Their Black Friend”
“Feeling threatened leads people to overestimate the importance of past actions.”

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-inertia-trap/201405/why-every-racist-mentions-their-black-friend

“Making Mountains of Morality From Molehills of Virtue: Threat Causes People to Overestimate Their Moral Credentials”

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0146167214533131

So not only are you a sexist but a racist/bigot.

The reason the cost of the EPIPEN went up was that Richard Durbin in 2013 sponsored a law which made it almost mandatory that all school should have EPIPENs (not the generic kind but the brand name drug, EPIPEN had spent over 4 Million dollars to get this law passed)

Nope.

@ Kay West

“Why Every Racist Mentions Their Black Friend”

I’d really to meet the genius who declared that having a black friend is a proof of racism.

(For the record: I have no friend and do not want any.)

According to the CDC, the “United States Government” has purchased ALL COVID-19 vaccines

No wonder India is as bad as Alabama. You should be ashamed.

As an aside, I’ve really taken a liking to these d8 carts. Too much so for my comfort.

Anyways, I was picking up another one today and the guy got chatty. He asked me If I had my shots, he clarified that, indeed, the second one will put you on your ass for a couple days. He “had to be honest” and state that he is not getting it because he has all these “questions”. I told him his stuff was sketch and to “have a nice day.”

900 million off 3.5 billion is only 25% profit. That’s not a lot at all percentage-wise. That’s about what Walmart has to clear on sales to stay profitable.

Christopher

The Pfizer company made 3.5 Billion in total revenue from all products made and sold, and 900 Million of those total revenues was profit from the sale of the “vaccine”.

That means 25% of all their profits came directly from “vaccine” sales.

Pfizer’s other drugs are highly profitable, the one I have to take every day has a retail price of $10,000 a month.

Compare that to a “vaccine” that only costs about $6 an injection. Of course there are alot more people getting Pfizer’s “vaccine” injected than people who need to take my daily injection every day..

Read more carefully.

If Walmart made 25% of their profits from a single product being sold, they would be ecstatic.

Considering the damage of the virus and the flailing reaction to it have caused to the world, maybe Pfizer did not get enough profit from the vaccine. We should want everyone to be motivated to have the next vaccine ready even before a pandemic happens.

That requires a huge possible payoff, Because most of those efforts will never be rewarded. 10 or 100 years from now we may have another Spanish flu, such a unexpected bolt of lightning event is the one where we’ll need a vaccine yesterday.

The most expensive ( mrna) covid vaccines are reportedly about $20 apiece, with the other types being far cheaper ($2?) Even for an individual who shrugs off the virus as many do, $20 is far less than the economic and health damage of their possibly being a vector to pass the virus along. The vaccine also means that they can go back to normal work and everyone else can receive the products of that work.

So the pharma business model means that they sometimes push out expensive stuff that is of less than advertised benefit, in this case there’s a case that they are being underpaid.

with the other types being far cheaper ($2?)

That strikes me as a lowball. I mean, the CDC price for a dose of, e.g., Twinrix (in a 10-dose pack) is $6.20.

far cheaper ($2?)
No, going from memory probably ~&10 though the Indian Gov’t has been pressuring the Serum Institute to produce one at $3 which probably means they are below cost. This may be one reason among many that the Institute is moving a lot of production capacity to the UK.

Wow. This article says basically nothing about the entire point of the study itself, instead opting to spin the paper for something else entirely. The paper found evidence for and concluded that the spike protein causes vascular damage even without any viral matter whatsoever(!), and in turn, COVID-19 is largely a vascular disease. Almost nothing in this ‘analysis’ even addresses this. Perhaps it would be best to stick to breast cancer surgery instead of getting lost in the vaxx/antivaxx wilderness without a compass because of the obvious Dunning-Kruger effect at play here.

Silly troll. The entire blog post addresses EXACTLY what the paper shows in terms of the effects of spike protein on vascular endothelium, the weaknesses of the model used, and why this study is NOT evidence that spike protein made by COVID-19 vaccines causes vascular damage. Seriously, you’re the one suffering from Dunning-Kruger.🙄🤦🏻‍♂️

Wrong again. You provide no scientific basis to refute the findings of this study. Blathering on about vaccines and avoiding the very point of the study itself, in which it is clear that the spike protein — even without viral RNA — damages the vascular system. They have provided evidence that COVID-19 is as much a vascular disease as it is a respiratory disease.

I suggest you keep your surgical mask on, because when you take it off your Dunning-Kruger is exposed for all to see.

If you read the post, it is not challenging the possibility that COVID-19 can cause vascular damage – in fact, it supports it – or the possibility that the spike protein is involved, though it points out the limits of this study as evidence.

What it’s correcting is the use anti-vaccine activists are trying to make of this possibility to attack COVID-19 vaccines. The post explains why that’s without basis.

@Dorit: This new generation of drive-by trolls is, if it were even possible, impressing me even less than previous generations of drive-by trolls. I think our drive-by trolls are getting more ignorant and obtuse in their attacks.

“76er” is pretty clearly a repeat visitor under different names, given the “wrong again” bit.

Here’s an excellent description of a change they’ve made to the spike protein in the vaccines that almost certainly changes how the vaccine spike protein bonds with the ACE2 receptor (even if it was possible that the vaccine spike protein was freely circulating). Essentially, the viral spike protein injects part of itself into the ACE2 receptor via spring action, making for a much tighter bond than you would normally get from protein-protein interaction. The vaccine spike protein has been modified to prevent this spring action. There’s also some discussion as to why this modification prevents the ADE adverse reaction that a number of failed vaccines have produced.

https://cen.acs.org/pharmaceuticals/vaccines/tiny-tweak-behind-COVID-19/98/i38

If what the article describes is at all accurate, vaccine spike protein simply won’t bond very well at all. And the variants of concern are believed to be more infectious because they bond much better with ACE2 than the original.

“Narad” is clearly a repeat visitor under the same name. Given the whole “Narad” bit.

It is anoying.

For goodness sakes they removed one vaccine from the market for “blood clots”.

Ok tell us why and how the “spike proteins” from the vaccines won’t do the same damage in the body?

@ 500 pound peep: because there are so very many fewer spike proteins generated from vaccination than from infection.

That’s why.

Even with 100% of a region/country vaccinated herd immunity is likely temporary. Variants continue to breed in many parts of the world and they will show up sooner or later. Herd immunity will have to be global, and that won’t happen soon.

Mike Adams ( Natural News, Monday):
the spike protein is a bioweapon that will spread from person to person resulting in massive death. Extermination! There is no need to vaccinate more people because it will SPREAD by itself..
He is obviously confabulating based on an article that says vaccines of the future may function in this manner.

In other news..
we may not ever reach herd immunity
Thanks, anti-vaxxers, your efforts have beedn successful

@ Denice Walter

“Thanks, anti-vaxxers, your efforts have beedn successful”

There also is a shortage of materials for vaccine manufacturing, I’ve heard. And patent issues seem to be problematic in the current context. Logically, patents should not be an impediment to vaccine manufacturing and hence delivery, but a catalyst. I may be uninformed, but I do not believe antivaxxers have a huge audience nowadays in, say, India. Vaccine hoarding also was counter-productive. Something is wrong in that policy architecture or lack thereof…

@ F68.10:

“.. I do not believe antivaxxers have a huge following nowadays, in, say, India.”

Heartrending, unforgettable images of Indians trying in vain to get medical assistance/ oxygen for family members, makeshift clinics set up outside of Sikh temples, funeral pyres everywhere..
Doctors of Indian origin around here and internationally are trying to help as are many governments.

Sceptics who follow anti-vax lore for years have speculated that a return of VPDs because of low vaccination rates might serve to counter anti-vax talking points because many anti-vaxxers are too young to remember massive outbreaks of measles etc in the past. Their leaders now try to convince them that Covid doesn’t affect them or is not real to keep them from making the connection which we’ll all see as vaccine rates increase ( such as in Israel, California, NY area, New England, UK). I imagine some anti-vaxxers will blame it on poverty in India or something being wrong with the population that makes the more vulnerable.

I thought our local (NZ) antivaxxers couldn’t sink any lower until I found one last night who was claiming that no-one’s dying of covid-19 in India – all those deaths (according to her) were due to starvation.

Absolutely repulsive individual.

Even better ( or worse):
Tenpenny has a video 8 Ways mRNA Covid Vaccines Can Kill You
and it’s just as atrocious as you imagine. Circulating around Brghteon, Bitchute, PRN, other highly suspect BS sites
I won’t repeat her mchanisms of action

Mikey is now ranting about what Dr Hotez wrote in Nature in his usual unreality-based fashion AND he lists the doctor’s phone numbers, twitter and ways to contact his employers. Orac is familiar with Mikey’s work.

“The authors took mock virus and instilled it into the tracheas of Syrian hamsters.”

Are you sure this was published in Circulation Research, not The Onion?

I see the three page paper has 21 (count ’em… twenty-one) co-authors. Did each of them write one-seventh of page? At that rate, how many 1/21ths of a publication does it take to get tenure or promotion.

I’m sure it’s no consolation, but college and university press offices are just as bad or worse in the way they generate PR out of the humanities as with the sciences. But then, they don’t answer to the academic side of the institution, but to the development (i.e. fund-raising) department, which is higher up the pecking order. Anyway, I definitely do feel your pain there.

Eh, that’s not a totally absurd number of authors, in the grand scheme of things. The people who actually did the work, plus everyone’s PI gets to be a lot of people really quickly.

Have you ever seen the author sections on a physics paper? That can be a whole page of names, if it’s done at some place like CERN.

Have you ever seen the author sections on a physics paper?

This was always a PITA in the ApJ Letters.

@ NWO Reporter:

You write: “Dr. Harrison, your theories are interesting and all, but where is your evidence? You may be willing to assume a “benign” reason for the massive increase in vaccine deaths reported to VAERS based on your prior knowledge, but we are dealing here with an entirely unprecedented situation–an increase so enormous that calling it “massive” is conservative. Why has no one made an organized attempt to analyze the situation? Why don’t you? You’ve already gotten your paper half-written in these comments–now all you need is the data and analyses to go with it.”

The bottom line is that the CDC has teams that investigate thoroughly each and every VAERS report of a serious adverse event, which, of course, death is serious. They access medical records, etc. So, whether you accept my reasons for the increase in reports or not, they have been investigated and were NOT found to be caused by the vaccine. As for my assuming a “benign” reason, whatever the reason is, it wasn’t the vaccine and I don’t assume that antivaccinationist websites and social media are benign; but that is a different story.

As I wrote, police may in some crimes have only a few suspects and in some crimes have many; but if they do there job, doesn’t matter why they had few or many. Maybe not a perfect analogy; but it makes the point.

And, as I’ve written several times, no matter how well I document my reasoning, you will find either a reason to reject it or come up with something else. That is what people who subscribe to paranoid conspiracy theories do.

Tell me, have you ever read a single book on immunology, epidemiology, microbiology, etc.? If not, then you don’t understand the basics of how and why vaccines work. However, an analogy I’ve given before is military war-games. Simply, military put through simulations of real combat without live ammunition. Vaccines introduce microbes in some form that they don’t represent live ammunition; but everything else, so, just as with military, our immune systems are trained and ready.

Why don’t you give up? The vast majority of people following this blog just find you, at best, amusing, at worse, an example of many of the problems we have in this nation.

Why don’t you give up? The vast majority of people following this blog just find you, at best, amusing, at worse, an example of many of the problems we have in this nation.

Ginny is just attention-whoring. She seems to have abandoned her old blog (with all the gems of wisdom from Rappoport) and now is dropping links to her personal site. Those are the real payload; the hit-and-run word blobs are just frosting.

Listen to the language this shill uses, the first thing he does is label anyone who doesn’t trust this particular vaccine an “anti-vaxer” repeats the word and gives his psychoanalysis of hypothetical people he doesn’t even know, what a clown

“psychoanalysis of hypothetical people”

Hamlet? Smeagol? To which hypothetical people do you refer?

Orac’s article evidently opened a portal to a woo dimension.

Only those with hypothetical intelligence can traverse it.

I find that deeply concerning how the
word “anti-vaxxer is being abused.

I took all the other vaccines that were necessary, including TB ones when I was in education when I was young.

Those vaccines didn’t have the risks of these Covid ones.

One thing I notice is when questions are not answered and ad hominens or trying to discredit your debaters comes first as a technique, it shows a problem there.

I took all the other vaccines that were necessary, including TB ones when I was in education when I was young.

Where did you grow up? BCG has never been a routine vaccine is the US.

One notes that you have not pointed out a single error in fact, science, or interpretation of this study. Instead, you distract by perseveration on a single word that offends you. It’s a obvious dodge so that you don’t have to address the substance of the post. You could prove me wrong with substantive refutations, but I highly doubt that you will.🙄

“I took all the other vaccines that were necessary”

Which vaccines currently recommended for adults and children do you endorse as safe and effective?

No, those older vaccines didn’t have the risks of the COVID ones.

They had more.

The smallpox vaccine is dangerous, and has serious side effects. Think about why you don’t have to take that one any more.

Some questions for you.

Why is there open and active censorship of regular people discussing their side effects from the Covid vaccines being censored on social media? I belong to two Covid vaccine side effect groups on Facebook, two with memberships in the thousands were removed, one while I was reading it. Why is all this censorship happening? You can crow about conspiracy theorists but when regular people are being silenced that’s a problem.
If the spike proteins harm people with Covid19 and give them blood clots, why wouldn’t spike proteins from Covid “vaccines” do the same? Isn’t the fact many of these vaccines have given people vascular related problems like blood clots and heart inflammation a wake up call? I would like to know when the manufacture of spike proteins in the body of the vaccinated turn off.
Why are people being labeled “anti-vaxxers” to silent them when many who question the Covid “vaccines” and the safety of new mrna technology received all other vaccines. I got a tetanus shot just last year because it was due. I know that one is safe and effective. Don’t you see the manipulation in tossing terms like that around to silence critics or those who question the safety of these vaccines?
Why do they want to give experimental vaccines to children who have little to no risk from Covid where the long term effects of these vaccines is far worse?
Have you read any of the cases on VAERS like about the 15 year old who had a heart attack. It doesn’t take that much time to do a basic internet search to find the endless tragic outcomes from these vaccines.

Some questions for you.

Do you know the way to San Jose?
Will you still love me tomorrow?
What’s the freqency, Kenneth?

It’s ultra ultra wide band. The tuning is temporal, no one frequency bucket has any detectable power.

It’s so loud yet completely hidden in the herd.

“If the spike proteins harm people with Covid19 and give them blood clots, why wouldn’t spike proteins from Covid “vaccines” do the same?”

This was pretty well explained in the article, but to cover it again, the vaccines (all of them) make way, way, way less spike protein than an infection.

It’s like the difference between a handfull of sand and a landslide. One of those will destroy your house. The other will not.

Also, since you brought up your tetanus shot (probably a Tdap, depending on what country you live in), what kind of vaccine is that? Do you know that technology? Are you interested in learning?

It looks like in some people it’s enough spike proteins to do harm to them if one looks at the long lists of adverse affects. The blood clots and myocarditis etc in some patients as a case in point.

One odd thing is how becoming ill, [for most a few days] has become normalized with this vaccine when they tell people your immune system is being primed to fight Covid. While side effects happen with other vaccines, there was not this idea that one was to have to take to their bed and puke for a few days because the “vaccine was supposedly working”.

I don’t mind finding out how tetanus shots work. All I know is I got it, and life was fine. I had no ill effects and I can trust it to work, and happy to have gotten it.

I wasn’t like 10 plus people I knew who got the Covid vaccines getting sick for a few days. [I know of one that had seizures and two who had tingling and numbness in their legs. It was weird as a chronically ill person to watch healthy active people marching off, and taking a vaccine that made them sick. One lady was in bed for two weeks, and I believe had to visit a hospital. One of my elderly friends had to call 911 she got so sick. There’s a reason that they have posted articles about people getting the first shots and not returning for the second. I know the posters here do not agree with my opinion that the Covid vaccines are poor quality but that is one factor that plays into my opinion.

I know you all assume that everyone who is rejecting Covid vaccines are all hopeless and ignorant antivaxxers but if I took other vaccines, doesn’t that prove that does not apply to me? There’s many others like me as well. That’s why I think it’s disappointing that your main arguments here seem to be saying “you’re a bunch of crazy anti-vaxxers!” I don’t even trust alternative/holistic medicine and have told people much of it doesn’t work–don’t get me started on homeopathy, so some here need to open their eyes.

Most traditional vaccines work from a small piece of an inactivated virus or bacteria etc. I am a layperson so not explaining this exactly but that’s how they worked and they are proven safe. mRNA is something totally different. I in fact have interest in finding out if a more traditional vaccine is available for Covid besides mRNA vaccines, I would look at it’s safety of course.

Some people may choose to be late adopters, or are taking a wait and see approach.
Not everyone is the type of personality that wants to get a new medical technology before they work the kinks out. I’ve had enough medical suffering and already have am almost deaf. I don’t need to add more. I would think a more friendly approach would work for this blog rather then the stance, of anyone who questions mRNA vaccines, is a “crazy anti-vaxxer” because it’s simply not true.

fivehundredpoundpeep:
Hi, friendly neighborhood immunologist here.
A couple of things.

First, there are other vaccines that have a reputation (and data to back it up) of making people feel pretty cruddy after getting immunized. When I got my smallpox immunization I had a running sore for about a month and the lymph nodes in my armpit on that side swelled up for a couple of days. I personally have not had a yellow fever vaccination, but friends have told me it can really wipe you out.

Second, because COVID is still circulating heavily in the population some people are getting COVID after their first shot (less likely but not improbable) and some might think that their COVID symptoms are actually from the vaccine.

Third, you would probably find the history of the development of vaccines very interesting and useful, but in general the progression over time is to include less and less of the pathogen of interest to make the vaccine safer (either from reversion to wild type or side effects). So going from attenuated virus to killed virus to protein subunit to mRNA is introducing only the minimum material needed for the immune system to mount a response without the risk of disease.

I don’t assume the vaccine hesitant are “crazy anti-vaxxers” – I hold that designation for the people who deliberately spread lies about vaccines that I then have to spend time debunking for my friends who don’t have the knowledge base to debunk for themselves.

I would think a more friendly approach would work for this blog….

I saw her today at the reception….

Why is there open and active censorship of regular people discussing their side effects from the Covid vaccines being censored on social media?

Here we go…

I belong to two Covid vaccine side effect groups on Facebook, two with memberships in the thousands were removed, one while I was reading it. Why is all this censorship happening?

“one while I was reading it.”

Wow. Yep, that’s the government or possibly thier Kindle tool.

You can crow about conspiracy theorists but when regular people are being silenced that’s a problem

Oh look at mr. mediocre on tv here complaining about how he can’t say fuck on tv.

Well you don’t have to believe me, but I was on Facebook reading it, when it went poof! and this censorship is happening. People even just questioning the vaccines can be banned from a myriad of discussion boards.

You know free speech used to be something that was important to Americans. I guess I am an old lady I remember when there were actual investigative journalists. This has nothing to do with being a jerk cussing on TV but people talking about personal side effects from vaccines.

You know free speech used to be something that was important to Americans.

That doesn’t mean the local paper is duty-bound to give you an op-ed.

@ fivehundredpoundpeep

You write: “If the spike proteins harm people with Covid19 and give them blood clots, why wouldn’t spike proteins from Covid “vaccines” do the same? Isn’t the fact many of these vaccines have given people vascular related problems like blood clots and heart inflammation a wake up call? I would like to know when the manufacture of spike proteins in the body of the vaccinated turn off.”

Imagine a finger cut off and used for fingerprints. Cut off, it can’t do anything. Same with S-spike protein. It isn’t attached to the virus, can’t do anything but be recognized by immune system, just as cut off finger can be fingerprinted. The mRNA that is responsible for the production of S-Spike protein disintegrates in a few hours, so, once disintegrated, no more S-Spike protein manufactured.

The S-Spike Protein from the virus isn’t the cause of blood clots. It is antibodies reacting to different aspects of the covid virus that also react to endothelial cells in blood vessels. Called autoimmunity. Every person has a different assortment of antibodies. Sometimes these antibodies recognize both an aspect of the invader and, while not exact, some aspect of a cell, so they attack both the invader and the cell. This is also the main explanation for several autoimmune diseases, e.g., diabetes. However, the S-spike protein is so specific and different from blood vessel endothelial cells that basically zero chance that antibodies that target it would also target blood vessel endothelial cells.

You write: “Why do they want to give experimental vaccines to children who have little to no risk from Covid where the long term effects of these vaccines is far worse?”

First, they are NOT experimental vaccines. They have gone through the same Phase 1, Phase 2, and Phase 3 clinical trials as any other vaccine. While children do have little to no risk, some have been found to have endothelial damage; but more importantly, since they interact with many others, even though they shed fewer viruses, they put at risk many others, e.g., those who can’t be vaccinated because of certain autoimmune diseases, those undergoing chemotherapy for cancer, etc. And any of those at risk could be, for example, exposed while out shopping, in parks, etc. Plus, recent research has found that some of the newer variants of COVID are in fact infecting kids. While few die, more and more are developing variants of long Covid.

You write: “Have you read any of the cases on VAERS like about the 15 year old who had a heart attack. It doesn’t take that much time to do a basic internet search to find the endless tragic outcomes from these vaccines.”

According to American Heart Association: “Each year, approximately 6,300 children younger than 18 years of age experience out-of-hospital cardiac arrest ”

That is approximately 17 every day. So, since I’ve not seen the exact VAERS report, let’s say the heart attack occurred three days after the shot. Without the shot, 51 kids would have a heart attack. A parent might think the vaccine was involved and report it to VAERS; but the CDC has active teams that thoroughly investigate each and every serious adverse event, including accessing medical records. Just because something happens after a vaccine doesn’t mean vaccine responsible. Roosters crow, the sun rises, doesn’t mean the sun rises in response to roosters crowing. This is a logical fallacy called Post Hoc Ergo Prompter Hoc. Quite possibly the kid had an underlying birth defect, perhaps not noticed until first heart attack, etc.

Reference:

American Heart Association. Youth & Cardiovascular Disease. Statistical Fact Sheet 2015 Update. Available at: https://www.heart.org/idc/groups/heart-public/@wcm/@sop/@smd/documents/downloadable/ucm_472920.pdf

Thanks for explaining the S-Spike Protein, that helps, and I just asked question again but had not read your response yet, so thank you.

I still believe we need more study for long term effects of these vaccines but thanks for at least admitting that some people medically should not be vaccinated. I have multiple autoimmune diseases some that are very serious, one has even deafened me [nearly deaf at severe and profound level] Also many people including me have had anaphylaxis and my history of this is severe. It does seem you would have a more reasonable approach then one size fits all and would be at least open to some people not being viable medical candidates for the vaccines. I had no choice but to keep my health care going, aka going to medical places even during the worse of the lock downs.

I did admit to someone yes there will be some statistical deaths, Grandpa Joe would have died on the Tuesday he got the vaccine just by chance, but having read so many bad side effects, I don’t think we can brush off all the side effects as being under the statistics umbrella. Just read CovidVaccinated on the reddit board. Yes I know it’s reddit. I am not a doctor with access to medical records but for SO MANY to be given such horrific outcomes, that place is a wake up call. As a chronically ill person I hang out on medical boards and beyond the individuals I know who got sick, seeing people complain about horrible things in reference to Covid vaccines has not been pleasant either.

I am not a Republican or anti-vaxxer that thinks Covid is not real. I wear the masks etc.

@fivehundredpoundpeep (out of nesting here): I also have an autoimmune disease, and my doctor made a point of getting me vaccinated early because of that autoimmune disease: both because of the effects of the disease, and because the treatment for that disease is an immunosuppressant drug. That wasn’t just her: the state’s list of people to be prioritized when they were still saying “over 70 or certain specified medical conditions” included people receiving immunosuppressant therapies.

More generally, it sounds like you may be one of the (relatively few) people who shouldn’t be vaccinated for medical reasons. If you look at any of the sensible FAQs about the vaccine, they include things like “I have an autoimmune disease, should I get this vaccine?” and the answer is “talk to your doctor about your specific health risks, this is more complicated than we can cover in a FAQ.”

Vicki

I hope you are aware that since you are on an immunosuppressant drug, that the vaccine most likely did not activate your immune system to make antibodies.

Just this last week there was a report of a man on a immunosuppressant drug who got a COVID-19 vaccine, waited two weeks and went out to dinner with friends. He promptly got COVID-19 and died.

Testing showed that he had made Zero antibodies to COVID-19.

So if you think you are protected, you are most likely not. You should ask your doctor to run an antibody test to see if you made any antibodies at all in response to your “vaccine” injection.

Until you have positive proof of adequate antibody protection, you should be wearing a mask and taking all precautions to protect yourself from infection with COVID-19.

And how long the “vaccine” will work for you if you did make antibodies….that is an unknown. In non-immunosuppressed people they expect it to protect from six months to a maximum of about a year.

“Why is there open and active censorship of regular people discussing their side effects from the Covid vaccines being censored on social media? ”

Good thing you’re here on Orac’s blog where you can make dozens of posts, without any of them being deleted.

Some questions for you.

Why is Orac responsible for your inability to find the same Facebook comment twice?
Why are you pushing the only Covid vaccine with actual dangerous side effects (the old-fashioned J&J blood clot vaccine made the way that you like with no new technology. Have you read about the VAERS report about the vaccine that caused a child to turn into the Incredible Hulk? It doesn’t take any time at all to see the tragic results of non-vaccine use – real people die, but since there’s no vaccine to blame, those deaths don’t matter.

Yesterday, Tucker Carlson railed against colleges that will require their students to be vaccinated for COVID before they return to class.

If the authorities are permitted to control a healthcare this intimate, if they can force you and your children to take a vaccine you don’t want and are afraid of, what can’t they do? Nothing… They will have total power over your body and your mind forever.

At which point he invoked (surpise, surprise) the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons opposition to college vax requirements and endorsed parents complaining to the deans, and other unspecified acts of ‘resistance”.

No one should be forced to take this or any other medicine against their will, and unless they speak up now, unless they resist this, they’ll be getting this shot whether they like it or not, and many more shots.

His rant included advancing the idea that the vaccine affects women who are pregnant or breastfeeding, and speculating that it could negatively impact fertility. He didn’t mention the ‘the spike protein is toxic by itself!’ line yesterday, but give him time. I’m sure he’ll get to it, as he continues to represent himself to the Fox audience as the voice of the ‘real science’.

Carlson’s program draws the highest ratings in cable news, and many pundits believe he would win the GOP nomination for POTUS in 2024 if he chooses to run.

TV and video demand tension and controversy, or the audience clicks to another tab. A presenter has to find or create that tension, or the mass audience will run away and their show will be canceled. Maybe he believes there is a danger to the vaccinations. maybe he doesn’t and he’s just trying to hold onto audience share, Maybe he’s really a science nerd without the science background, and is thus misled.

So, write him a calm and reasoned letter laying out the evidence, or enlist a well-known biologist to do so. TV never was and never will be a reliable source of impartial information.

“So, write him a calm and reasoned letter laying out the evidence, or enlist a well-known biologist to do so. ”

I shall assume this bit of comedy is unintentional.

“Carlson’s program draws the highest ratings in cable news”

Funny, I have never seen him listed on the standard pirate site top dalies.

This is a what I see has been missed from the reference by Kay West to the NYT article. In the notes of the financial statements is ” Adjusted Income(2) Before Tax (IBT) Margin for BNT162b2, – High-20s as a Percentage of Revenues” or the description is ” The BNT162b2 revenue projection incorporated within Pfizer’s 2021 financial guidance includes 1.6 billion doses that are expected to be delivered in 2021 under contracts that have been signed through mid-April 2021. This guidance may be adjusted in the future as additional contracts are executed.

Adjusted(2) IBT margin guidance for BNT162b2 incorporates the current expectation for revenues for the product, less anticipated Adjusted(2) costs to manufacture, market and distribute BNT162b2, including applicable royalty expenses and a 50% gross margin split with BioNTech, as well as shared R&D expenses related to BNT162b2 and costs associated with other assets currently in development for the prevention and treatment of COVID-19. It also includes R&D expenses related to other mRNA-based development programs which are excluded from the collaboration with BioNTech. It does not include an allocation of corporate or other overhead costs.” Note the 50% gross margin split, which means their pricing is twice the margin they are reporting as I read it, which I do not have a problem with, nor is this really a discussion about money because their pricing is in line.

The exciting news from the Earnings Conference Call readout “we are continuing our efforts to evaluate the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine in additional populations. •We expect to hear back shortly from the FDA on our application for expanded Emergency Use Authorization for our COVID-19 vaccine to include individuals 12 to 15 years of age.•The Pfizer-BioNTech pediatric study evaluating the safety and efficacy of our COVID-19 vaccine in children six months to 11 years of age is ongoing. We expect to have definitive readouts and submit for an EUA for two cohorts, including children 2-5 years of age and 5-11 years of age, in September. The readout and submission for the cohort of children six months to two years old are expected in the fourth quarter.•We also expect to have Phase 2 safety data from our ongoing study in pregnant women by late July/early August.

“we are making progress with improving the stability of our COVID-19 vaccine.•On Friday, we submitted new stability data to the FDA, and we believe we could soon receive an update to the EUA Prescribing Information allowing the vaccine to be stored at standard refrigerator temperatures (2°C to 8°C) for up to four weeks. •We also are working on a ready-to-use formulation that, subject to generating supportive stability data and obtaining regulatory approval, could potentially be stored at standard refrigerator temperatures for up to 10 weeks, and up to six months at -50°C to -70°C. If successful, we expect to have the data to support this formulation in August.Fifth, as we move closer to a potential approval for our investigational 20-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine for adults – which, if approved, may be launched during an ongoing pandemic – we plan to begin this month a study of co-administration of the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine with the 20-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine ”

” we are evaluating the safety and immunogenicity of a third dose of the existing formulation of our COVID-19 vaccine to understand the effect of a booster on immunity against the SARS-CoV-2 variants in circulation. Additionally, we have started an evaluation of an updated, prototype variant version of our vaccine that encodes the spike protein of the lineage B.1.351 SARS-CoV-2 variant, which includes the mutation E484K, first identified in South Africa. This study is designed to establish a regulatory pathway to update the current vaccine to address any future variant of potential concern in approximately 100 days, if needed. We expect to have immunogenicity data for both studies in early July”

“Pfizer has emerged as a leader in mRNA development, and we are exploring a wide range of opportunities for the technology.We are making rapid progress with our potential flu mRNA program, and we aim to maintain mRNA leadership with two potential game-changing mRNA approaches to a flu vaccine expected to enter the clinic in the third quarter of 2021.We will test multiple constructs in Phase 1/2 to facilitate swift selection of an optimal tetravalent flu product dose regimen. We aim to develop initially a tetravalent flu vaccine using the modified mRNA platform. Pending the generation of favorable immune and tolerability Phase 1/2 data, a potential rapid progression to Phase 3 is possible, given our large-scale pharmaceutical science and manufacturing capabilities.We also are exploring the potential to address other infectious diseases that we plan to discuss in the near future.In addition to prophylactic vaccines for infectious diseases, we believe mRNA has the potential to address a wide range of therapeutic areas, including cancer and genetic disease. As you have seen, today we have increased our 2021 R&D guidance to reflect our plans to increase our mRNA capabilities, build momentum in our targeted areas of interest, and deliver on mRNA’s breakthrough potential for the benefit of people worldwide. You can expect to hear more about our plans and potential applications in the coming weeks.”

https://investors.pfizer.com/investors-overview/default.aspx

I’m updating and I’m not completely comfortable with doing this out in public — seems a me time kind of thing.

There is no proof given in this article that demonstrates that the amount of spike protein produced in the humastudyody is less than that of the virus itself. Which peer reviewed studies is this from? It’s not in the Pfizer or Moderna applications.

There is basically nothing in this piece that addresses the demonstration of how spike protein alone is a dangerous mechanism. The stimulated antibodies take weeks to formulate, in which time the spike proteins have replicated constantly — remember a thing called cellular division??

In December the CDC declared that spike proteins were a “harmless” part of the virus, now this study contradicts that with evidence.

There is basically nothing in this piece that addresses the demonstration

Read it again.
The author of the Salk Institute scientific article, went himself to Twitter and addressed the overuse of his “demonstration”, notably when extrapolating it as evidence of harm from the spike protein in vaccine.
His tweets are quoted by Orac.

remember a thing called cellular division?

Remember a thing called RNAse? The mRNA is short-lived and won’t be around for the cell division.
And anyway, a cell division won’t multiply the present mRNA. It’s not that a mitosis does. And the mRNA are not part of the cell genome..

The spike proteins produced by the cells aren’t floating around anyway. Mostly. They end up either anchored in the cells’ membranes or cut into bits by the cell itself and presented at its surface as targets for the immune system.
The spike protein is a transmembrane protein. It’s that it does. Getting stuck in the producing cell’s membrane. That’s how the newly-formed virions can collect them and add them to their surface, when they exit the cell – they snag a bubble of cell membrane on their way out of the cell.

The mRNA injections are delivered in liposomes — which means they are not available to RNAse that are just floating about — otherwise they would be shredded/destroyed too rapidly. Instead we have lipid nanoparticles that we are given no documentation on how they travel and what tissue they are likely to be embedded in. I understand the mRNA is not subject to cellular division, but are the spike proteins? Where is the evidence this is or is not the case?

Those who are reporting heart attacks/clots/etc from the vaccines: is it perhaps because some liposomes get embedded and then the immune system does it’s job: cytotoxic attacks on cells that appear infected with viruses? Or maybe it’s spikes that escape cells and latch onto others that then cause endothelial growth and clotting? Or why not both?

I am not ‘tolling’ to ask seriously for at least one peer reviewed study that demonstrates a quantitative analysis of how much spike protein is actually created in the human body — measured directly — and not just via indirect observation measuring IgG or whatever antibodies.
Thanks.

Those who are reporting heart attacks/clots/etc from the vaccines: is it perhaps because some liposomes [sic] get embedded and then the immune system does it’s job: cytotoxic attacks on cells that appear infected with viruses?

“Embedded”? What would that accomplish?

The LNPs are taken up by antigen-presenting cells and then head off to the lymph circulation. Have a review.

@76er MRNA will go into cell, and there RNA would be destroyed by RNAase

I consider the vaccines poor quality because of the need for constant boosters, the short term even expected [more mild illness]–those who don’t have severe effects but flu like illness, and the fact they do not give full immunity like traditional vaccines. Of course this is differing opinions I understand. With the transmission, yes you are right they are studying more on that but I have seen contradicting articles and studies. Pfizer is more the one in the 90s, isn’t J&J lower in effectiveness?

Thanks for your other articles and links, I will read those and will comment later on them on their comment list. I am short on time now so that will later on. I am interested in what you have to say on the gene therapy matter. I believe when examining issues in looking at both sides. I am still not pro-mrna vaccines but will see what you say on the matter.

I am interested in what you have to say on the gene therapy matter.

What about that gene therapy matter?
The mRNA vaccines are not gene therapy.
Stop listening to people who are dishonest in their definitions.

You can define gene therapy as “using nucleic acids in a medical treatment” – i.e.; as the mean used in the treatment.
But then, you don’t get to pivot and use the other possible definition, i.e. the one using the target of the treatment. The usual definition of gene therapy is a treatment which will modify the genome, or modify the way the genome is being run by the cells.
To be honest, up until recently, most actual gene therapies approaches fitting the latter definition, would also have fit the former definition.
But again, one is precise or one is not.

Now, if you have in mind other applications of mRNA technologies, some of them could be gene therapies, you will have to be more specific.

Athanic

Only in the USA.

An article in Pharmaceutics published in February 2020 called “Opportunities and Challenges in the Delivery of mRNA based Vaccines”

“mRNA vaccines are only targeted for cytoplasmic delivery, circumventing the risk of genomic integration [4]. The relatively short half-life results in transient and more controlled expression of the encoded antigen. Moreover, mRNA can be produced in a cell-free environment by in vitro transcription (IVT), thereby eschewing the use of microbes or cultured cells for production, and avoiding the associated quality and safety issues in the production. This permits simple downstream purification and rapid and cost-effective manufacturing [5]. However, mRNA is often promulgated on the grounds of the popular opinion that when using mRNA, unlike DNA, the stringent gene-therapy regulations are bypassed because mRNA does not integrate into the host genome.

However, in reality, this only holds true in the US since in Europe, any active pharmaceutical ingredient, which contains or consists of a recombinant nucleic acid, used in or administered to human beings, falls under the scope of the regulation for advanced therapy medicinal products [6]. Therefore, mRNA-based therapeutics are categorized as gene therapy.”

These so-called mRNA “vaccines” are not gene therapy, in the US ONLY.

In Europe where they invented the use of mRNA they are classified as GENE THERAPY.

You know, the change in the name makes perfect sense since no one in America will willingly and easily take a treatment that is Gene Therapy. Call it a “vaccine” instead and most people are programmed from childhood to take vaccines will allow it to be injected into their bodies.

So you all can call it a “vaccine”, but I will call it what it is called where it was invented….. Gene Therapy.

And if you think I am against Gene Therapy, I take an injection of recombinant Human Growth Hormone made by Pfizer every evening but I know exactly what gene therapy is and this medicine saves my life every day, and it is my choice to take it. And I know what the risks are for this specific treatment I take.

@Aelxa Gene therapy is fixing a lethal gene. Ethical problems are caused by this fact.it woiuld be permanent altering the genome. MRNA vaccines are transient, and should not cause worries. Europe has accepted mRNA vaccines, gene therapy would cause much more discussion. It is strange, too, that something can be gene therapy in one country and not in another. We are speaking about a regulatory pigeonhole there.

Aarno

If you read my other posting on the topic, these mRNA “vaccines” are also considered Gene Therapy by the US government per the Vice President of a company which has to jump through those legal hoops to get their mRNA and recombinant products approved for use in the US.

Legally Gene Therapy is using genes to prevent or treat disease.

The mRNA in these “vaccines” carry genes into the cytoplasm, genes that the cytoplasm uses to make more of those genes…..which genes are the spike protein.

Hence legally these mRNA “vaccines” ARE Gene Therapy.

Tough tooties, dude. Like I told someone else you can dislike it, but you will lose in court if you say they are not Gene Therapy.

@Aelxa However, FDA thinks that they are vaccines:
https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download
“The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic presents an extraordinary challenge to global health. There are currently no FDA-licensed vaccines to prevent COVID-19. Commercial vaccine manufacturers and other entities are developing COVID-19 vaccine candidates using different technologies including RNA, DNA, protein, and viral vectored vaccines. ”
Notice RNA vectored vaccines. FDA has bigger boots here, I would say

Can you please explain what you mean by “the need for constant boosters”?

Are you talking about the COVID vaccines that use the prime-boost immunization strategy? That’s extremely standard in immunology and is used for many, many different vaccines.

Are you talking about vaccines like the influenza vaccine, which is re-formulated every year for the dominate strain? That’s not a failure of the vaccine, that’s addressing the mutations of the virus.

Or are you talking about vaccines for diseases like tetanus and pertussis? Those require boosters because humans don’t build long-lasting immunity to those pathogens (specifically the toxins they produce). That’s not a failure of vaccine design, that’s the immune system not working how we would like. (Humans don’t build long-lasting immunity after catching whooping cough either, so it’s not just the vaccine.)

JustATech

You know very well that the CDC and the companies making these “vaccines” are saying we may need regular “boosters” to deal with the coming variants sooner rather than later.

So why ask 500poundpeep about what she means regarding boosters?

@Aelxa. If virus changes enough, a new vaccine is needed. Booster is used, when the virus has not been changed.

Aarno

It is obvious you are not keeping up…….

“In the trial, Moderna is testing a 50-microgram dose of its vaccine in previously vaccinated individuals. It found the booster dose increased neutralizing antibody responses against the original virus as well as B.1.351 and P.1, two variants that have since spread to other countries, including the U.S.

The company also said a booster shot of its other vaccine, which it is calling mRNA-1273.351, generated an even better immune response over its current vaccine against the B.1.351 variant from South Africa. The new vaccine is a variant-specific booster shot intended to target B.1.351.”

Why don’t you tell Moderna that? That they should not call their other shots, that are not the present version being given to people, “booster” shots.

It should be amusing to listen in and hear your conversation with them.

@Aelxa If you actually read what wrote, Moderna is speaking about new virus variants. They say that booster dose as such helps.
But it is obvious that if virus mutates enough, a vaccine is needed. There is no vaccine against all kind of viruses.

No vaccine provides 100% immunity, and immunity wanes with time. The reason that you need an annual flu shot is because of different variants of influenza, and it’s hardly surprising that COVID will likely require annual shots as well. It’s hard to see how COVID doesn’t become endemic in the population at this point. Other vaccines require boosters – I think that current recommendation is to get TDaP every 10 years now.

Julian

And as you well know if a thing is legally true, you can fight all day in court and lose.

But it is legally true for the simple reason that the mRNA carries DNA SEQUENCES made up of GENES that the cytoplasm then replicates (those genes are the spike protein everyone is talking about).

Those genes are then what the immune system reacts to and makes antibodies against since the genes are so foreign to the body and are recognized as such.

“Through a process known as transcription, an RNA copy of a DNA sequence for creating a given protein is made.

This copy – mRNA – travels from the nucleus of the cell to the part of the cell known as the cytoplasm, which houses ribosomes. Ribosomes are complex machinery in the cells that are responsible for making proteins.

Then, through another process known as translation, ribosomes ‘read’ the mRNA, and follow the instructions, creating the protein step by step.

The cell then expresses the protein and it, in turn, carries out its designated function in the cell or the body.” —from Moderna website

So legally it does not matter if the DNA sequences in the mRNA came from our own DNA in the our cell’s own nucleus, or if the mRNA was not made inside our own cells nucleus and was made in a lab instead.

These mRNA injections are legally Gene Therapy.

You can call it Mommy Moderna’s Miracle COVID Vaccine if you want to….but legally it is STILL Gene Therapy.

@Aelxa MRNA vaccines does not carry genes. Genes will pass to daughter cells during cell division. This is why gene therapy is controversial

@ fivehundredpoundpeep

You write: “I still believe we need more study for long term effects of these vaccines but thanks for at least admitting that some people medically should not be vaccinated. I have multiple autoimmune diseases some that are very serious, one has even deafened me [nearly deaf at severe and profound level] Also many people including me have had anaphylaxis and my history of this is severe. . . Covid is not real. I wear the masks etc.”

I am a volunteer in the Moderna Covid vaccine trial. I started September 2020. We signed up for 25 months, so we go in every so often for blood tests, fill in questionnaire weekly, and have monthly phone calls. However, given everything we know about how the mRNA vaccines work, the likelihood of long-term effects is about zero.

Since you admit covid is real, wearing a mask, practicing physical distancing smart; but these reduce significantly your chances of being infected. Don’t eliminate them. So, you should want as many people who can be vaccinated to be vaccinated to both protect them and yourself.

You write: “I did admit to someone yes there will be some statistical deaths, Grandpa Joe would have died on the Tuesday he got the vaccine just by chance, but having read so many bad side effects, I don’t think we can brush off all the side effects as being under the statistics umbrella.”

As I’ve written numerous times, the CDC thoroughly investigates every case report to VAERS of a serious adverse reaction. People can write whatever they want on social media; but then they should get some sort of confirmation, e.g., labs tests, etc.

You write: “I consider the vaccines poor quality because of the need for constant boosters, the short term even expected [more mild illness]–those who don’t have severe effects but flu like illness, and the fact they do not give full immunity like traditional vaccines. Of course this is differing opinions I understand. With the transmission, yes you are right they are studying more on that but I have seen contradicting articles and studies. Pfizer is more the one in the 90s, isn’t J&J lower in effectiveness?”

Poor quality? First, studies have now found high antibodies more than six months after getting the vaccine. Second, even if antibodies diminish, the memory B cells that produce them remain. It takes about 10 days for our immune systems to recognize and respond to an invader; but once recognized, even if antibodies low, the memory B-cells can churn out super fast and super high amounts, so we are still protected. And B-cells (produce antibodies) only one arm of adaptive immune system. T-cells also are both circulating and there are memory T-cells. As for poor quality? I go in every year for a physical, blood tests, prodding, etc. And I get the flu shot every year, even though it only about 50% effective; but this means 50% reduced risk of serious illness, 50% reduced risk of hospitalizations, and 50% reduced risk of death. Seatbelts only reduce death and serious injury by 50% and I have been using them long before public health messages to use and later laws requiring. The COVID vaccines, Moderna and Pfizer, are 95% effective and if I need to get a booster every year, I prefer a sore arm and, perhaps, mild fever, to what COVID could do to me.

If you want to read something that will help you understand how vaccines work, I highly recommend a short book on immunology: Lauren Sompayrac. How the Immune System Works (6th Edition). While I have several 800 page undergraduate texts, his 150 page book is both accurate and a good read. amazon.com has it and perhaps your public library.

I don’t have time to just keep supplying you with info. If you want to understand mRNA, get a book on molecular biology or genetics. I’m sure your public library has some.

And Athaic is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, mRNA vaccines are NOT gene therapy! ! !

Joel

Try reading this article published November 2020 at Endpoint News titled “Promising RNA tech comes with regulatory, CMC headaches…

“November 4, 2020 07:11 AM EST
Cell/Gene TxFDA+
Promising mRNA tech comes with regulatory, CMC headaches
Kari Oakes
As the buzz builds around messenger RNA (mRNA) technology’s use for two leading Covid-19 candidates, manufacturers and regulatory professionals are facing facts: This is not simple technology.

Complex manufacturing processes, delivery vehicles that must be treated more as drug substances than excipients, and potential immunogenicity headaches are among the challenges industry faces as this promising technology is harnessed to address an increasing number of health conditions.

At October’s virtual Euro Convergence conference, Tracy Meffen, VP for quality and regulatory affairs at Genevent Sciences Corporation, walked attendees through the basics of the technology, placing focus on chemistry, manufacturing and control (CMC) considerations from a regulatory affairs perspective.

Two types of RNA therapeutics work in different ways to create opposing effects, explained Meffen. By carrying genetic information in single-stranded RNA that enables protein synthesis, mRNA therapeutics up-regulate proteins that are faulty or missing. In contrast, the double-stranded RNA strands of siRNA therapeutics degrade mRNA after transcription, thereby preventing translation and eliminating excessive proteins that cause disease because they are faulty or overabundant.

Messenger RNA is considered by both the FDA and the EMA to be gene therapy “even though RNA does not interact with the genome,” said Meffen in giving a regulatory overview of the two types of RNA therapies. However, mRNA, which is regulated by the FDA’s Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research (CBER) is not yet classified as a regenerative medicine advanced therapy (RMAT). EMA considers mRNA to be an advanced therapy medicinal product (ATMP).”

Wow, a company that deals with mRNA clearly states that the FDA considers mRNA to be GENE THERAPY.

This is a vice-president of Quality and Regulatory Affairs that has to deal with the FDA, saying that the FDA considers mRNA a gene therapy.

I believe this means mRNA is a Gene Therapy.

Joel & Athanic

Even Boston Children’s hospital calls the COVID-19 mRNA injections ” a form of Gene Therapy”……

“Other new approaches blur the line between gene therapy and drug treatment. For example, antisense oligonucleotides (ASOs) are drugs made up of short, synthetic pieces of DNA or RNA that target the messenger RNA made by the faulty gene. They prevent the gene from being translated into a “bad” protein or, in some cases, trick the cell’s machinery into making a “good” protein. Researchers can even customize ASOs to single patients. Tim Yu, MD, PhD, in the Division of Genetics and Genomics at Boston Children’s, has developed this approach to treat several very rare genetic conditions.

Another approach, RNA interference, uses small RNAs to “silence” a targeted gene by neutralizing the gene’s mRNA. (The lentivirus described above uses RNA interference to silence the BCL11A gene.)

Even the messenger RNAs used for some COVID-19 vaccines represent a form of gene therapy. The mRNAs introduce genetic code that cells then use to make the coronavirus spike protein, encouraging people to develop antibodies to the virus.”

So while you all here keep saying these mRNA injections are not gene therapy, Boston Children’s says it is Gene Therapy.

I guess Orac can call them and try his best to convince a hospital that does Gene Therapy treatments, that they are incorrect.

What FDA actually says about matter is this:
https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download
“The SARS-CoV-2 pandemic presents an extraordinary challenge to global health. There are currently no FDA-licensed vaccines to prevent COVID-19. Commercial vaccine manufacturers and other entities are developing COVID-19 vaccine candidates using different technologies including RNA, DNA, protein, and viral vectored vaccines. ”
So they are actually, according to FDA, RNA vectored vaccines. Why do you just
check FDA ?

Aarno

I choose to believe a Vice President of a company that makes mRNA peoducts saying that these are Gene Therapy and that the FDA regulates them as Gene Therapy just as the EU regulates them as Gene Therapy…..over an FDA MEDIA announcement.

It is actually industry guidance, not a media release. FDA tells industry what it can do. Check the date. It is June 2020

fivehundredpoundpeep: “I know you all assume that everyone who is rejecting Covid vaccines are all hopeless and ignorant antivaxxers but if I took other vaccines, doesn’t that prove that does not apply to me? There’s many others like me as well. That’s why I think it’s disappointing that your main arguments here seem to be saying “you’re a bunch of crazy anti-vaxxers!…I am not a Republican or anti-vaxxer”

Given that Orac’s article and multiple posters have taken pains to explain why the spike protein paper does not demonstrate vaccine dangers and to go over what mRNA vaccines do, I find your claims of Covid-19 vaccine doubters summarily dismissed here as antivaxers to be a strawman argument.

It’s nice that you say you got a tetanus shot. As I asked you earlier without getting a response, what vaccines on the pediatric and adult schedules do you endorse and recommend that people get?

Full-blown antivaxers characteristically dodge that question.

I think that what this paper shows is that the only people who should worry about vaccine side effects are the ones whose mother’s are hamsters.

And the fathers get the blame as well. Don’t forget them. Especially when they come in smelling of incindiberries. Y’all ‘member when a man could cheat and maybe come in smelling of nothing more incriminating than afrosheen and spermicide? PepperRidge Farms ‘members. Now it’s like, “symtec? what have you done? don’t give me that ‘my job’ shit; what have you done ?” And why do you smell of Elon and ozone? Are you working for ULA? You know they’ve busted their purity of essensce when they disconnect their brain and pin this Tucker Carlson I’m listening so intently incredulous face on when confronted with this line of questioning. They can all blow spike-fingers out of the millions of pours covering their retched, replicating, emmiting, bleating bodies. I got no use for them any more. Dirty men. Dirty, tricksy, false.

To follow up on what I wrote to Monsieur F earlier:
it seems that the anti-vaxxers/ woo-meisters I survey are increasingly ramping up fear about how deadly Covid vaccines are, that they are untested, how they damage immunity/ fertility,
cause blood clots/ strokes, etc.
Could it be that perhaps they have maintained some slight ability to discern reality and that they comprehend that vaccines are slowing the pandemic so they want to slow down acceptance of vaccines enough to stop the progress we have already made?
I remarked to someone else that maybe we would continue to have pockets of resistance and thus, higher levels of infection in er… certain places and SURE ENOUGH, the nightly news reported these areas exactly where you might expect them

@ 76er

You write: “The stimulated antibodies take weeks to formulate, in which time the spike proteins have replicated constantly — remember a thing called cellular division??” AND “I understand the mRNA is not subject to cellular division, but are the spike proteins? Where is the evidence this is or is not the case?

When a cell divides it duplicates the proteins in its DNA. The Spike proteins are NOT in its DNA, they are in the cytoplasm outside the cell nucleus and they are foreign proteins, not remotely related to anything the cell’s DNA would produce. The evidence is in the science of molecular biology.

And as I’ve written before, imagine cutting off a finger, taking it to a lab, then using it to get a fingerprint. The cut off finger can’t do anything. Can’t pull a trigger. Can’t poke a hole in your eye. Can’t even ring a doorbell. Same with Spike protein when NOT attached to the virus it only serves as a fingerprint to antibodies to recognize.

When attached to the virus, of course they aren’t harmless, just as when finger attached to a person it may not be harmless.

I found this interesting paper, this is only a small section of what was written on Medscape regarding the paper……

“While headache is a common symptom after the J&J vaccination, most headaches begin and resolve within two days. Whereas in the US cases of CVST after vaccination, headache symptoms began at least six days after vaccination and persisted for at least a week for most.

“Urgent consultation with a neurologist is prudent when a patient is suspected or confirmed to have CVST. In addition, since the median time from symptom onset to hospitalization was seven days in the US CVST case series, patient and clinician education might shorten the time to clinical evaluation and therefore treatment,” they state.

The authors also note that VAERS is a passive surveillance system, so cases of CVST with thrombocytopenia may be underreported.

In their accompanying editorial, Karron et al point out that in addition to the 12 patients with CVST with thrombocytopenia described in this case series, at least three patients without CVST but meeting diagnostic criteria for TTS have been reported to VAERS (as of April 21), all in women aged 18 to 59 years (median age, 37 years).

The editorialists report that the rate of CVST with thrombocytopenia after the J&J vaccine is approximately 5 per million women aged 18 to 50 years. This is compared with a background rate of approximately 0.05 to 0.13 per million per month.”

Notice Orac said it was only 1 to 2 persons in a million who got blood clots from the adenovirus vaccines. And here it is 5 in one million. That seems like not too many right?

And what was the usual amount reported?

“This is compared with a background rate of approximately 0.05 to 0.13 per million per month.”

Wow, that is a HUGE increase over normal numbers.

But notice their view of VAERS….

“The authors also note that VAERS is a passive surveillance system, so cases of CVST with thrombocytopenia may be underreported.”

The authors feel that the blood clotting problem is under-reported.

As I had read and asked someone before how the CDC could expect Zero strokes reported, and get 19 cases…. and still those 19 cases did not ring any bells at the CDC. And there was a full list of such clotting conditions that were being ignored, with cases being far beyond the numbers expected..

Hey, I have heard the excuses that this is a very rare side-effect but for those 5 in a million people…. I believe those who won that 5 in a million lottery are not pleased, especially those who died.

But for people getting the vaccine, I hope you are now aware that if you develop a severe headache 6 days after your injection…. to then get your butt to the Neurologist and be tested before you throw a clot that kills you.

You could cite that 0/19 stroke thing again. I remember is was an issue about time period: 19 total, 0 in the time period in question. No problem there.
In addition try to find the original paper. Journos are not always reliable

Aarno

Why don’t you try reading the comment again. There were ZERO expects cases. And instead they had 19 cases. Try to read more carefully.

And I posted a comment with the link to the paper.

And now we have a new paper from Denmark saying the incidence is not 3 to 4 in a million, but they experienced a 1 in 40,000 incidence…..m

“A new study that systematically monitored rates of vascular and thromboembolic events in people receiving the AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine has found it to be associated with a rate of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST) of 1 in 40,000.

Using national health records, the researchers identified rates of arterial and venous events in a cohort of 282,572 people aged 18-65 years within 28 days of receiving a first dose of the AstraZeneca vaccine in Denmark and Norway from February 2021 through to March 11, 2021 and compared these with expected rates in the general population of the same age and sex.

Results showed seven cases of CVST in the vaccinated cohort.

“If we monitored this number of people in this age range over 28 days, we would expect to see 0.3 cases of CVST. We found a rate 20 times higher than that, which translates to 1 excess case in every 40,000 people vaccinated,” lead author Anton Pottegård, PhD, told Medscape Medical News.

“When we first saw this figure, it was much higher than the estimates being reported from spontaneous reporting systems with the vaccine,” Pottegård, who is professor of pharmacoepidemiology and clinical pharmacy at the University of Southern Denmark, Odense, commented.

“But now actually the most recent rates of this adverse effect from spontaneous reports are not so out of line with our figures. The official European Medicines Agency (EMA) rates are now about 1 in 50,000 for individuals aged 20 to 49,” he added.

Pottegård explained that spontaneous reporting systems are useful to find a signal of an adverse event, but they are not reliable for an accurate risk quantification as the adverse events are often underreported and there are usually delays in events being reported. “Our estimate will be more reliable as we are systematically collecting data on this,” he said.

“Early on, we thought CVST was a very rare occurrence — with figures of 3 or 4 in a million being reported, but now it looks like our estimate of 1 in 40,000 is more realistic,” he added.

Just another paper showing reporting systems vastly unreport adverse events.

@Aelxa Why do you not never give a proper citation ? This time, not even a link.

@Narad Actual paper was of course different:
“The absolute risks of venous thromboembolic events were, however, small, and the findings should be interpreted in the light of the proven beneficial effects of the vaccine, the context of the given country, and the limitations to the generalisability of the study findings.”
One problem is that in Denmark, as usual risk groups were vaccinated first.

Sorry Alexa, I can’t hear your 5 per million over the 10,000 or more per million that die after getting Covid.

Oh, and I just looooved the Salk paper that said that COVID-19 was a vascular disease.

Do any of you remember me saying that almost a year ago? That COVID-19 was clearly a vascular disease and not a respiratory disease….. and you all jumped down my throat saying I was nuts, etc (just place the usual insults you guys dish out to me).

Oh, I am soooooo vindicated by Salk. I am laughing my ass off over this one.

I ‘member, I told you to have a cookie a few days later after someone linked to a paper where a computer came up will all kinds of vascular treatments for this particular disease. And the scientists where all like this computer is broken and not primarily fuckused on pulmonary stuff. One lady scientist, who was in the Moderna trial, had a train to catch thus didn’t contribute anything at all (she seemed in a hurry like she forgot to give birth, or something) to weasle wording out of their miscommunication.

One of them, iirc, was a drug to tone down production of hyaluronic acid which is great for minimizing interaction with that pesky Lady Cassandra-Karen O’Brien.Δ17 but not so great in your lungs as it attracts bunches of it’s weight in moisture and turns to jellow.


https://youtu.be/q75igh4TXw8?t=1

Nicholas Wade just came out with long piece on covid virus origins in the lab in Wuhan…do you have any articles in the archive that deal with this? Wanting to debate with a Trump idiot on the internet and I need ammo lol

A Trump idiot is claiming that Covid was a deliberate release from Wuhan? Doesn’t that make Trump look even worse – right now, everything thinks he’s just a fellow who failed because of a natural disaster that he wasn’t up to dealing with. If Covid was deliberate, Trump is someone who failed to respond to an enemy attack, and surrendered instead – as if Roosevelt had responded to the Pearl Harbor attack by shutting down military bases.

@ Kay West

You write: “Well I guess I should be happy that Joel didn’t call me “DEARY.”

I have NEVER used “deary”. Are you delusional???

And obviously you didn’t understand the point I was making, namely, that the profit margin on medical drugs and devices are often far greater than on vaccines, for instance, statins, insulin, drugs used daily. Or, very expensive therapies, e.g., monoclonal antibody treatments. As I wrote, our government sides too often with the corporations which is what you describe for the epi-pen. Is that too complicated for you???

And as I have made clear several times, I get the flu vaccine every year, a vaccine that is only at best 50% effective, reducing risk of severe disease, reducing risk of hospitalization, and reducing risk of death. Even if not covered by my health plan, I would pay out of pocket $20 or $30 per year for it. I pay much more yearly to get my teeth cleaned and checked. I have NO insurance for this, so pay it all. So, paying for a COVID booster shot to reduce (and COVID vaccines, at least Moderna and Pfizer 95% effective) serious illness, hospitalization, long COVID, and death well worth it. And, yep, they will continue to make a profit; but fewer will get the booster as the pandemic wanes; but the total amount going for boosters is nothing compared to the medical costs (including profit), economic costs to those who become sick, etc.

And I would be happy to support a government that controlled the costs of medicines, etc., that allowed reasonable; but not exorbitant profits by the pharmaceutical industry. Many other nations do that. And I will say it one more time, namely, the profit on anything doesn’t say whether it is valuable, neutral, or harmful. Focusing on profit is just a way many can attack vaccines, ignoring the overwhelming evidence of the suffering, disabilities, and deaths they prevent. On the other hand, if someone were to discuss how our government allows obscene profits in general, that would be a reasonable position.

So, how did you go from discussing the profits on vaccines to attacking me for mentioned being Jewish and calling me a sexist, racist/bigot??? Can’t you stay on topic?

Yep, I went off topic when someone else made bogus claims about the Holocaust. I explained how being Jewish I became aware of Holocaust at an early age because friends of my parents had numbers tattooed on their forearms. Once aware I began a lifetime of reading, attending seminars, and I have been close friends with several families where one member was a Holocaust survivors. Then I was attacked as a misogynist and racist. Totally foolish as I exchanged comments with both men and women. I had a number of unpleasant exchanges with Scott Allen. Sounds like the name of a man. And I haven’t had one black friend; but many, just mentioned the one. I participated in protests against both Vietnam War and Segregation way back in 1960s and would have joined the Freedom Riders except for being a coward and also probably too young. And how is it proof I am a racist if I mention one particular friend? One of my roommates in college was Catholic, does that make me an anti-Catholic by mentioning it? In fact, he and his wife will be visiting California from their home in Florida in June. We have remained friends for over 55 years. I was even best man at his wedding.

Basically you are a very sick individual who twists what others say. Calling me a sexist, racist/bigot is just despicable; but then again, your comments on this blog indicate your lack of intelligence, not because you are a woman; but just a despicable excuse for a human being.

@Joel A. – Come on, pony up, this imaginary use of the word deary was really a typo for dreary.

@ Ross Miles

You could be right; but I get the impression that Kay West lacks imagination. 😀

@ evodevo

Below is a list of some of the articles I have. Note that several are before 2019, finding corona virus antibodies in Chinese, finding mutants in bats that attach to ACE2 receptors and one that found covid antibodies in Americans before December 2019. Also, I have a number of articles on American labs experimenting with gain of function on various viruses and on serious lab breaches in U.S. I wonder what would have happened if outbreak started here. Even if from naturally occurring mutants, world knowing about our lab experiments and breaches . . . The flu pandemic of 1918-19 has strong evidence originated in U.S. Note I will read Wade’s paper later today. Note. since pandemic, papers on COVID have been free for download, so you should be able to access the following by typing in title.

Origins COVID-19 Virus:

Anderson KG et al. (2020 Apr). The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2. Nature Medicine; 26(4); 450-452.

Basavaraju SV Serologic testing of U.S. blood donations to identify SARS-CoV-2-reactive antibodies: December 2019-January 2020. Clinical Infectious Diseases.

Chen YN et al (2019 Nov 22). Entry of Scotophilus Bat Coronavirus-512 and Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus in Human and Multiple Animal Cells. Pathogens; 8(4): 259.

Chen S (2020 Nov 16). Coronavirus hunters pick up another piece of the trail in Italy. South China Morning Post.

Cheng VCC (2007 Oct). Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus as an Agent of Emerging and Reemerging Infection. Clinical Microbiology Reviews; 20(4); 660-694.

Ge XY (2013 Nov 28). Isolation and characterization of a bat SARS-like coronavirus that uses the ACE2 receptor. Nature; 503 (7477): 535-8.

Guo YR et al. (2020 Mar 13). The origin, transmission and clinical therapies on coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) outbreak – an update on the status. Military Medical Research; 7(1): 11.

Hu D et al. (2018 Sep). Genomic characterization and infectivity of a novel SARS-like coronavirus in Chinese bats. Emerging Microbes & Infections; 7(1): 154.

Liu SL (2020 Feb 26). No credible evidence supporting claims of the laboratory engineering of SARS-CoV-2. Emerging Microbes & Infections; 9(1): 505-507.

Menachery VD (2015 Dec). A SARS-like cluster of circulating bat coronaviruses shows potential for human emergence. Nature Medicine; 21(12): 1508-13.

Morens DM & Breman JG (2020 Sep 9). Coming to terms with the real bioterrorist behind Covid-19: nature. STAT.

Qiu J (2020 Mar 11). How China’s “Bat Woman” Hunted Down Viruses from SARS to the New Coronavirus. Scientific American.

Seyran et al. (2021 Mar). Questions concerning the proximal origin of SARS‐CoV‐2. Journal of Medical Virology; 93(3): 1204-1206.

Wang N et al (2018). Serological Evidence of Bat SARS-Related Coronavirus Infection in Humans, China. Virologica Sinica; 33: 104-107.

Woodward A (2020 May 2). A US researcher who worked with a Wuhan virology lab gives 4 reasons why a coronavirus leak would be extremely unlikely. Business Insider.

As I’ve scanned the nyms of commenters, when my eyes hit “fivehundredpoundpeep” my brain instead gestalted it to “fivehundredpoundpoop”.

I’m not into scatology, so I’ll reject a Freudian interpretation. So is it something like clairvoyance, or just presbyopia?

; – )

Sadmar & Orac & Renate

I think the comments you all just made regarding 500poundpeep’s name are disgusting.

That really shows how degraded your mindset gets, to descend into feces territory.

I think you guys owe 500poundpeep an apology. But I highly doubt any of you will do so.

@Orac “Indeed, I’d be willing to bet that flu vaccines will soon be based on mRNA technology given the success of COVID-19 vaccines.”

An almost sure bet. Pfizer claims progress with a potential flu mRNA program, with potential mRNA approaches to a flu vaccine with their expectation to enter the clinic in the third quarter of 2021. Pfizer is testing multiple constructs in Phase 1/2 to facilitate selection of an optimal tetravalent flu product dose regimen. Given their capabilities, I would expect a rapid progression to Phase 3 is possible. Pfizer is also trying to incorporate a booster in the same dose, to inoculate against emerging Covid variants. I would guess that Moderna is also on it, but have no knowledge of what they are doing.

So, last night Tucker Carlson continued blasting out all the COVID antivax takes to the Fox News faithful. This time it was ‘the vaccine will KILL you’, based mainly on the VAERS numbers referenced in this thread, plus some side-effect reports from Alex Berenson and “researchers at Oxford and UCLA”. fivehundredpoundpeep will be happy to learn Tucker railed against Facebook for banning LifeSiteNews, in his telling “a nonprofit news organization” which had just “reported government numbers from the VAERS database”. In contrast, Tucker praised Senator Ron Collins for grilling NIH director Francis Collins about “why so many Americans seem to be dying after the shot.”

CNN reported today that while some Fox contributors Tweeted criticisms of Carlson’s take, there’s been no such dissent on-air. The network is backing its biggest star 100%.

I report this stuff here because it’s a sign that anti-vax in now an entirely different thing in socio-political terms than it was just a few years ago — the familiar here terrain of TMI, AoA, RFKJ, Vaxxed etc. That was, in the larger scheme of things, a fringe movement with very little power. Now, as Peter Hotez has noted ,”Being against vaccines [is] seen now as a badge of loyalty to the Republican Party… antiscience is a major platform of the Republican Party, and that’s very scary for the country … antivaccine attitudes.[are] now mainstream in the Republican Party where they have money, clout, and a lot of power.” What we need to add to that is that the Republican Party is in the thrall of Trumpism, which is in turn driven by the right-wing media bubble, in which Fox News sits at the top of the heap, and within Fox Tucker is King. As Nicole Wallace used to say about the relationship between Fox and the Trump administration, maybe it’s not so much a case of State-run-media as a case of media-run-State.

So why are Trumpists like Carlson and Johnson so anti-vaccine, given that Trump himself brags about creating the vaccines (Operation Warp Speed only happened because of him, donchaknow)? Well, first, the base had already absorbed the COVID denialism that Trump and his surrogates like Peter Navarro and Larry Kudlow spewed out for the better part of a year. But now, they’re against vaccination first and foremost because Biden is for it. There are two parts to this. The first is ideological. They want their base to hate and fear Biden and the Dems, which they try to feed via culture wars, portraying the Dems as gray mind-controlling ‘socialists’ (by which they mean Stalinists) out to extinguish all freedom and ready to send all dissenters off to some gulag of cancel culture. Antivax is a neat fit to that narrative. Second, and this is where it gets really sick, they want Biden’s programs to fail. Period. If the administration’s vaccination campaign succeeds and we get out of the pandemic, Biden will get the credit which will boost his chances for re-election. So they want the pandemic to continue, for people to continue to get sick and die, for the economy to remain restrained, for schools to need to remain closed, etc. etc. so they can blame Biden for all that., so they can own “open up and return to normal”. Like I said, sick, but what do you expect?

One thing I expect: the big pharma firms will still make large campaign donations to many of these people because the GOP supports lowering corporate taxes, opposes regulation, and will fight Biden’s proposal to suspend IP rights on the vaccines in order to help fight the pandemic in poor countries. You want a cynical take on the pharmas? How about this: If the pandemic continues to rage unrestrained in other parts of the world, many new variants may evolve that will not be affected by current vaccines, creating new markets for new vaccines in the wealthy countries that can and will pay whatever Pfizer and Moderna chooses to charge. Of course, the pharmas could disabuse anyone of that by cooperating with Biden on the IP issues. I’m not holding my breath, though.

Russia and China both have programs to distribute their vaccine to the “poor countries”. China has a mass of positive trade balance and can afford to send out billions of doses of the vaccine at no charge if they so desire.

Many of those countries have very wealthy elites and highly lucrative industries such as oil production; it is only their governments which keep the bulk of the people poor.

If governments and NGOs wished to have vaccines free of patents, they could easily have hired researchers and conducted the work themselves. They chose not to.

“China has a mass of positive trade balance and can afford to send out billions of doses of the vaccine at no charge if they so desire.”

They’ll be delivered in a few days on a Long March 5B rocket. Ivory Coast got the previous shipment.

@ Spectator

Actually the U.S. government did subsidize some of the vaccine research, e.g., Moderna, which is why Moderna agreed to treat their vaccine as a non-profit. Doesn’t mean they sold it at a loss; but . . . And government researchers did cooperate with them. However, Pfizer refused any U.S. government monies.

And having a patent, which gives a company a monopoly, doesn’t mean they can price-gouge. There are actually articles in law reviews that make clear that the U.S. government can cap profits if they so wish. Unfortunately, they don’t.

I hope it doesn’t hit anybody. Around here, if it comes in at a low enough angle the tornado will deflect it into the tornado magnet {trailor park that lines and protects the city}. There may or may not be tears. It depends on the local news cycle and the trial of that cop.

@ Spectator

What you fail to understand about patents is that they are in the Constitution, not to benefit individuals or companies; but to encourage individuals and companies to do research, develop technologies, etc. to “promote the general welfare.” However, if a patent is given to a company and it charges exorbitant prices, e.g., some gene therapies, etc. then the government can legally step in; but doesn’t.

Also, about 90 – 95% of all basic research is funded through various government entities, e.g., grants, etc and carried out in government run facilities. Also, 50% of applied research is either funded by various government entities or carried out in government run facilities. So, much of what private companies claim cost them, not true. In addition, there have been several well-done evaluations that disprove the high amount pharmaceutical companies claim developing a drug or medical device cost.

Spectator, absolutely–that sort of thing has been happening since the dawn of civilization. But if you look deep enough…meaning, at least a dozen hours or so of research focusing only on sources that are not promoting vaccination–you will find the vaccine paradigm is flawed from its foundations. Its purpose is not to improve public health, it is to control the public.

NWO, if you science deniers were able to think logically and unselfishly then you wouldn’t have to be micro-managed. It’s like watching Homer Simpson in a field of rakes.

Its purpose is not to improve public health, it is to control the public.

How does that work, Ginny? In detail. Here.

OMG, It is headed right for me. I can make it hit atlanta and tunica with my one-shot rail-gun. And that would save me. Would you miss them??

It’s a personal choice. It’s an EXPERIMENTAL Medical Treatment using GENE THERAPY. It ( Pfizer) treatment does NOT prevent getting or spreading the virus. Thousands are being KILLED by the “vaccine” and hundreds of thousands are being hospitalized or permanently disabled by this “vaccine” so if I CHOOSE not to take it, excuse me. The survival rate for WILD “covid” is OVER 99% so EXCUSE ME if I am hesitant to inject this crap in my body. LOL

I must admit I kind of like this comment: large number of tropes packed into a small number of words. Not only is it quick to read and dismiss, but with a further small increment in trope density I have every expectation that the trolls will collapse beyond the CT event horizon.

It is not gene therapy,it is not experimental and its is 95% effective. THOUSANDS have died, but tens of millions have been vaccinated. Some of them die after vaccination in any case.

@ rs

“I must admit I kind of like this comment: large number of tropes packed into a small number of words.”

It’s a tactical comment.

Full of tact.

Full contact.

I’ve been following two developments in parallel recently:
— select areas ( UK, Israel, parts of the US/ EU) report both increases in vaccinations and drops in infection rates, serious illness and deaths leading to planned re-openings, loosening of restrictions and gains in economic activity
— alt med advocates are increasingly ramping up fear of Covid vaccines, efforts at mitigation and governmental interference

Sounds like desperation to me. Twitter ( What’s Happening today) reports suspicious adverse events/ deaths on VAERS and “Yellow Card” systems.
Mike Adams attacks Dr Hotez as Mengele and is giving out his/ his employers contact information. See Orac’s latest post about woo in private schools.
The usual suspects direct their rage at Dr Fauci, governmental agencies, pharma companies, Mr Gates and sceptics even more vehemently than is their habit. ( AoA, CHD, PRN, GMI etc)

Could it be that they see that the course of the pandemic is changing, for the better, due to vaccination ?. And Covid is ravaging places like India with little vaccination?
As cities re-open, schools allow greater numbers of students in-person attendance, businesses allow more people in their shops/ restaurants, sports venues have vaccinated/ unvaccinated sections and more universities require vaccination, we can expect their fury to grow and hear more haranguing by trolls at RI..
( personally, I’ve been watching airline prices since February and they’re up, maybe 40% for July and August so I bought some)

.

“sports venues have vaccinated/ unvaccinated sections”

I’m not always a “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the one. But not this one.” kind of guy; not being “fully” vaccinated yet I wouldn’t want to be surrounded by that other either. And they don’t wan’t gnarly nano spike-fingers wafting into their ears so I guess the feeling might be mutual but for different reasons.

But, If I can detatch from the miftedness of masks unmandated before I could get mine aside, It is the replication that must be minimized. If the finicky thing is just going to keep doing this: https://youtu.be/yiBHj8Xs4sg?t=112 it might manage to morph into being somebody some day.

So, letting the unvaxed hide in the heard seems like it should minimize that. So the same, clumping them together would seem like it shouldn’t.

Maybe the unvaxed are fuel rods and there is some critical mass that starts spitting daughters out like crazy — the vaxxed are the graphite**.

**This analogy does not work. It’s backwards, It’s best to keep the rods pulled out and away from each other.

Bad analogies 101: This thing can be turned on me and it will get out of control.

OK. But with the rods (~Chads/legitimate bidness factory owners..economy…slave owners…,$40 a rim job Rod.) pulled out then the town can’t get ‘power’ to make all them widgets.”

Good point, fellow bud, err, dial tender. Just jab them ‘Chads’ one at a time and cram them right back in there as fast as possible. Deep, and hard. Be an Influencer.

@ NWO Reporter

You write: “if you look deep enough…meaning, at least a dozen hours or so of research focusing only on sources that are not promoting vaccination–you will find the vaccine paradigm is flawed from its foundations. Its purpose is not to improve public health, it is to control the public.”

Well, I have spent thousands of hours, not just focusing on sources promoting vaccines; but the history of infectious diseases, epidemiology, immunology, etc. Anyone, except paranoid conspiracy theorist like yourself, who looks at the aforementioned will understand how vaccines are one of the main reasons that human life-expectancy, especially among developed nations, has increased. Take just smallpox, for example. Follow World Health Organization’s program for eliminating. As vaccinations progressed from one Third World Nation to the next, smallpox completely, I repeat, completely, disappeared. Nothing else changed, not safer water, better hygiene, better nutrition, etc. In fact, disabilities and deaths from other microbes continued at the same rates. I could go on and on. And go back to smallpox outbreaks in U.S. prior to vaccine. Then follow as smallpox ended in U.S. while still raging in other parts of world, etc.

People like you are great for “COMIC RELIEF”. Stupid on STEROIDS! ! !

If you are so sure of yourself, why not brag by using your real name???

If you are so sure of yourself, why not brag by using your real name???

Joel, Ginny Stoner is a well-known attention-whoring crank.

The only thing Augie likes about boxes is gnawing on them. The carpet is covered with shreds of cardboard.

“The only thing Augie likes about boxes is gnawing on them.”

Is “Augiie” {Tim approved} perhaps handi-capable? Or blind?

— Oppie/avie, what are you doing, Oppie?

Well they could have called it the more apt (as per the graphic) wiffle-bat protein or the pestle-penis protein but ohh no they did not because the immune system might have started laughing with it and not at it and, by Jenner, that shall not stand! So this paper exists. — r/showerthoughts

And it doesn’t really address the worrisome shedding. Has anyone ever seen that movie Maximum Overdrive with those wonky trucks? I’m tellin’ ya’, it’s that nanotech. The engines are fixing themselves and putting me out of a job {I put sawdust in used cars so that they last more than three days without smoking too much after being driven off the lot — it packs the rod journals, valve guides, and oil control ring. And other stuff to. I mean, I do other stuff to. I have a fallback position}.

The spikes are nanobots, everybody sais it, stop lying.

I had a great research assistant position after college at Large Famous Northeastern Ivy Research University, Inc in the late 80s/early 90s when science press offices were first becoming a thing. My PI was shocked to discover that he had absolutely no control or input into how his research was presented by the PR people. After several other professors were similarly burned we had a meeting with the press office, and only one of them had taken Biology after High School. It was stunning.

@ Aelxa

You write: “Even Boston Children’s hospital calls the COVID-19 mRNA injections ” a form of Gene Therapy”……”

Yep, they wrote: “Even the messenger RNAs used for some COVID-19 vaccines represent a form of gene therapy. The mRNAs introduce genetic code that cells then use to make the coronavirus spike protein, encouraging people to develop antibodies to the virus.”

But whoever wrote it got it wrong. Nancy Fliesler is a senior editor. I couldn’t find any info what her education was. Messenger RNA is NOT the same as genetic code. DNA and sometimes RNA are genetic code. Believe what you want, just additional example of how stupid you are. Pick up any intro to molecular biology book.

You write: “And now we have a new paper from Denmark saying the incidence is not 3 to 4 in a million, but they experienced a 1 in 40,000 incidence…..m . . . lead author Anton Pottegård, PhD, told Medscape Medical News.

So what does the paper actually say: “Conclusions: Among recipients of ChAdOx1-S, increased rates of venous thromboembolic events, including cerebral venous thrombosis, were observed. For the remaining safety outcomes, results were largely reassuring, with slightly higher rates of thrombocytopenia/coagulation disorders and bleeding, which could be influenced by increased surveillance of vaccine recipients. The absolute risks of venous thromboembolic events were, however, small, and the findings should be interpreted in the light of the proven beneficial effects of the vaccine, the context of the given country, and the limitations to the generalisability of the study findings.”

So, the risks were “small” and “could be influenced by increased surveillance of vaccine recipients.”

You just jump on anything that confirms your rigid unscientific antivax position. Check it out yourself:

Pottegård A et al. (2021 May 5). Arterial events, venous thromboembolism, thrombocytopenia, and bleeding after vaccination with Oxford-AstraZeneca ChAdOx1-S in Denmark and Norway: population based cohort study. BMJ.

Oh, in another Danish paper with Pottegård as one of the authors, the conclusion was: “Risks of venous thrombolism and major bleeding were low to moderate in hospitalized and community-managed COVID-19 patients. These risks were comparable with patients suspected of but testing negative for SARS-CoV-2 and with influenza patients.” Dalager-Pedersen et al. (2021 Jan 5). Venous thromboembolism and major bleeding in patients with COVID-19: A nationwide population-based cohort study . Journal of Infectious Diseases.

What you don’t understand is that science looks at probabilities. When one evaluates the rates of a disease in any group, one looks at confidence intervals, that is, a range of rates that would fall within a normal range. Why? For several reasons: 1) using a sample means it may not be exactly the same as entire population; 2) even if one uses entire population, could miss cases and/or even populations don’t not maintain absolute stable rates, they fluctuate. So both studies used confidence intervals. Just one more example of your ignorance of science or, perhaps, you just jumped at an interview rather than looking at the actual paper.

Aelxa apparently failed to note that Nancy Fliesler is a “[s]trategic communicator and storyteller with experience in science, medicine and healthcare, including blogging, digital content, PR, video/television, publications development and social media,” rather than being any sort of official spokesperson for BCH.

@ Narad

EXCELLENT! ! !

You do know how to find info. I always download any article that you give a URL to.

I wonder if I’m gonna get flamed just for writing this, but here goes anyway:
1) This article observes that the study needed a “crapton” of pseudoviruses to obtain its results, whereas the vaccines allegedly produce only a modest quantity of spike protein. Besides the obvious and legitimate question for proof of the latter claim, I would like to point to this study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2589004221001383 , whereby even minimal levels of isolated spike protein were found to be highly fusiogenic. My reasoning is that, IF even minor quantities of spike protein make it into the bloodstream and come into contact with platelets, they are totally capable of forming a thrombus. Unfortunately, you don’t need a lot of thrombi for things to get dangerous. Even just a single one can do a lot of damage if it ends up in a bad place.
2) Contrary to the assertion that the vaccine reaction is localized to the muscle and the proximal lymph node, I am aware of several studies that have found dissemination of vaccine material in distal tissues. See for example https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1525001617301569 , Table 1 and section “Biodistribution Studies”; or https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/assessment-report/covid-19-vaccine-moderna-epar-public-assessment-report_en.pdf , page 47, last paragraph. It seems, therefore, perfectly reasonable to expect to find spike protein from the vaccine in the blood. If you want to make the claim that this is not possible, then the burden of proof is on you.
3) Can we at least agree that we wouldn’t be arguing and calling each other names right now over any of this, if they had bothered doing animal studies to find out about this stuff beforehand? Or is asking for new medications to be tested on animals first before rolling them out on humans anti-scientific and conspiratorial too now?
4) I love freedom of choice. Especially when it comes to medicine. I want everyone who decide that they want this vaccine to have access to it. All I’m asking for is that others respect my own decision for my own body that no amount of spike protein belongs into my blood.
And I feel that betting the farm only on vaccines was a myopic decision. Therapeutics need to be emphasized a lot more. I am very aware that some diseases like smallpox and polio were eradicated thanks to vaccines. But a vaccine is a tool, not a goal in and of itself. If I need to put a nail into a wall, I’m not anti-screwdriver if I think that a hammer would be better suited for the task at hand. We’re not going to eradicate the flu with vaccines anytime soon, and Covid seems much more similar to flu than to smallpox to me.

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