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COVID-19 vaccines and female infertility: A lie that never dies

Antivaxxers have long claimed that vaccines can cause female infertility. That claim has been resurrected for COVID-19 vaccines. This time, it’s the lipid nanoparticles attacking the ovaries, echoing very old claims about polysorbate-80. Truly, everything old is new again.

Before there were safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines authorized for use, such as the vaccines by Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna, and Johnson & Johnson here in the US, as well as AstraZeneca in Europe and elsewhere, those of us who have been countering the antivaccine movement for many years now were warning about the sorts of disinformation that antivaxxers would spread about them. We were largely correct, too, but I can’t really say that it took any particular brilliance or foresight to have been so correct. We simply knew that there is no truly new trope, pseudoscience, or disinformation in the antivaccine narratives and conspiracy theories; so all we did was to predict the repurposing of tried-and-not-true antivax lies, be they about death, infertility, autism, or whatever.

And so it came to pass beginning as soon as the vaccines neared approval under an emergency use authorization (EUA) by the FDA that antivaxxers repurposed all their old tropes for COVID-19 vaccines, claiming that they were loaded with “toxins” (the lipid nanoparticles in the mRNA-based vaccines, given that they can’t contain aluminum, don’t you know?); blaming every death reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database on vaccines, when VAERS is not designed to determine causation and we would expect a large baseline number of deaths in the time periods covered by random chance alone; claiming that vaccines cause Alzheimer’s and prion diseaseblaming the vaccines for cancer; resurrecting the favorite old trope of “shedding” from the vaccinated in the most risible manner possible; invoking evolution to predict the selection of more deadly coronavirus variants that could wipe out humanity; warning that the vaccines can “permanently alter your DNA“; and that they cause female infertily. I will admit that there were a couple of new ones, albeit variations on a theme. For instance, because of the new mRNA- and adenovirus-based technologies used to develop the current crop of vaccines, antivaxxers have falsely referred to them as “experimental gene therapy” rather than vaccines, and, because vaccination in the shoulder can lead to transient inflammation of the lymph nodes under the arm, which has led to some unnecessary biopsies after mammography for breast cancer screening, antivaxxers have tried to claim that the vaccines cause breast cancer. So I guess I should say that there’s almost nothing new under the sun.

This is why I was not particularly surprised to see the “toxins” gambit with respect to COVID-19 vaccines rear its ugly head again, in particular with respect to the lipid nanoparticles in the vaccines. I was, however, slightly impressed with how antivaxxers had combined it with the “vaccines and female infertility” trope again. (Or maybe they were combining the “vaccines are sterilizing our women” trope about the vaccines supposedly causing female infertility with the toxins gambit. I guess it doesn’t matter that much which is the case.) Since I keep seeing the study that antivaxxers mangle coming up again and again and again on antivaccine social media, I decided that I had to address this new marriage of two antivaccine tropes. Let’s just say that they’re two crappy tastes that taste crappy together.

It begins, as is often the case, on Twitter

I first recall seeing the antivaccine narrative, claiming that lipid nanoparticles from COVID-19 vaccines accumulate in the ovaries and other tissues, showing up on Twitter from “Nurse Erin”:

Conspiracy theorists being conspiracy theorists, “Nurse Erin” says that the claim that lipid nanoparticles from the Pfizer vaccine “adhere” to the ovaries is based on a “leaked confidential” study from Pfizer (of course). It turns out that “Nurse Erin” is an antivaccine nurse named Erin Marie Olszewski, who caused a minor ruckus last summer after having worked as a traveling nurse during the first surge of the pandemic last spring. She wrote a book about it, Undercover Epicenter Nurse: How Fraud, Negligence, and Greed Led to Unnecessary Deaths at Elmhurst Hospital. (That longtime antivaccine activist J.B. Handley, who has more recently—and not unexpectedly—joined the COVID-19 conspiracy theory antimask grift train, wrote the foreword should tell you all you need to know about this book, as should the endorsement by Joe Mercola.) In it, Ms. Olszewski claimed that people who had tested negative for COVID-19 were being diagnosed as having COVID-19 anyway, put on ventilators, and “drugged up with sedatives”. In the process, besides spinning conspiracy theories, she also appears to have engaged in what sounds like a massive violation of HIPAA by videotaping medical records, and including them in a conspiracy video with minimal redaction. Unsurprisingly, doctors and nurses at Elmhurst understandably felt betrayed and took pains to debunk “Nurse Erin’s” disinformation.

In any event “Nurse Erin” appears to have gotten her “information” from here:

Amusingly, fly tried to appear “reasonable”:

But antivaxxers were having none of it:

Which brings me to Byram Bridle, who, if the above Tweets are to be believed, is the person who “discovered” this “confidential” Japanese study. Before that, he had been spreading misinformation about the “deadly spike protein” produced by COVID-19 vaccines:

I’ll just refer you to my extensive discussion from two weeks ago of the studies being misrepresented by antivaxxers.

Enter Byram Bridle and “female infertility”

While I saw narratives based on this same study showing up on Twitter a lot, leave it to Mike Adams to turn up the conspiracies to 11, with an article titled “Horrifying study reveals mRNA vaccine nanoparticles are circulated throughout the entire body: Brain, heart, liver, ovaries, testes and more“:

Not surprisingly, everything the establishment tells us about covid vaccines has been a calculated lie. One of the biggest and most treacherous lies is that “mRNA vaccine shots stay in the arm and don’t circulate nanoparticles around the body.” Now we know that is a complete lie, as new research conducted in Japan shows that Lipid NanoParticles (LNPs) containing the mRNA code are widely circulated around the body after vaccination, reaching the brain, spleen, large intestine, heart, liver, lungs and other organs.

The study paper, originally written in Japanese and auto-translated into English, can be found at this link on Natural News servers (PDF).

Labeled, “Pfizer confidential,” the study is known as a bio-distribution study that uses luciferase enzymes and radioisotope markers to accurately track the distribution of Pfizer’s mRNA LNPs across the body.

Of course, Adams also cites Dr. Bridle, who, as it turns out, is an associate professor and viral immunologist in the Department of Pathobiology in the Ontario Veterinary College at the University of Guelph, and apparently the main source of this new “variant” (sorry, couldn’t resist using the word) of the “toxins gambit.” (Dr. Bridle is a rather…appropriate…name for a faculty member at a veterinary college.) As you might guess, he is an antivaxxer, antimasker, and COVID-19 conspiracy theorists and has made a number of false claims about vaccines dating back to the early days of the pandemic. He is also engaged by Elders Without Borders as an expert witness on behalf of Adam Skelly (owner of Adamson BBQ), and has testified against the effectiveness of masks, against lockdowns, and against the “experimental” vaccines (which he reasons are unnecessary with his proposed treatment – ivermectin).

Perhaps Bridle’s most famous quote was cited by Adams:

In short, the conclusion is we made a big mistake. We didn’t realize it until now. We saw the spike protein was a great target antigen. We never knew the spike protein, itself, was a toxin and was a pathogenic protein. So, by vaccinating people, we are inadvertently inoculating them with a toxin, and in some people this gets into circulation. And when that happens in some people, it can cause damage, especially with the cardiovascular system. I don’t have time, but many other legitimate questions about the long-term safety there for this vaccine. For example, with accumulating in the ovaries, one of my questions is, “will we be rendering young people infertile, some of them infertile?” So, I’ll stop there.

You’ll see the first part of that paragraph everywhere, usually represented as a “provaccine” scientist saying, “We made a big mistake.” Of course, the hilarious part is the huge mistake Bridle makes in the paragraph above, conflating lipid nanoparticles with the spike protein. (More on that later.)

Most relevant to this post, he has made claims that the spike protein made by vaccines:

  • Is horribly toxic. (Wrong.)
  • “Has implications for blood donation.” (Given the transient, infinitesimal amount of spike protein from the vaccine that gets into the circulation, wrong.)
  • Has “implications for infants that are suckling.” (No, spike protein made by vaccines is detectable transiently in the blood at levels that are at the lower limits of a very sensitive assay, and a number of studies show that the vaccine itself is not passed through breast milk.)
  • Causes gastrointestinal bleeding in infants consuming the breast milk of their vaccinated mothers, based on VAERS reports. (Again, anyone can submit a report of any adverse reaction to VAERS, and antivaxxers have been weaponizing those reports, implying causation where there is none—or even a real correlation.)
  • Endangers fertility. (Not true, as I discussed before. Spike does not resemble the placental protein syncytin, the previous “mechanism” invoked by antivaxxers when fear mongering about COVID-19 vaccines and fertility. The new “mechanism” of Dr. Bridle’s promoted by Ms. Olszewski will be addressed in the next section.)

One also notes, as is often the case for scientists who spread misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines, an undisclosed conflict of interest:

A second emphasis of the lab is the study of host responses to viruses. An area of focus is developing a better understanding of the mechanisms underlying virus-induced cytokine storms. Dr. Bridle’s research team has identified a critical role of signaling through the type I interferon receptor in the negative regulation of an extensive network of cytokines. Cytokine responses to viruses are often very different between females and males and the Bridle lab group is seeking to understand why. At the intersection of these two programs, is a research initiative aimed at modifying the research team’s optimized cancer vaccine platforms to target severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus (SARS-CoV)-2, which is the causative agent of the coronavirus disease identified at the end of 2019 (COVID-19). The long-term goal is to have a flexible technological platform to rapidly develop vaccines against highly pathogenic coronaviruses that may emerge in the future.

Yes, Dr. Bridle is trying to develop his own vaccine and treatments for COVID-19. Sound familiar? It should. For example, Geert Vanden Bossche, who is also spreading misinformation about COVID-19 vaccines, owns a company that is trying to develop a vaccine based on a technology to activate natural killer cells. This is a form of antivaccine grift that goes all the way back to Andrew Wakefield, who, as you might recall, had his own measles vaccine under development at the time he published his case series linking the MMR vaccine to autism in 1998. The idea seems to be to attack current vaccines as dangerous and ineffective, feeding the antivaccine movement, to pave the way for your own vaccine. Indeed, a year ago Dr. Bridle received a $230,000 grant from the provincial government to develop a vaccine using the very same spike protein that he’s been demonizing, although that might be the “big mistake” he has been confessing to.

About that biodistribution study and female infertility

Now that I’ve established the origin of the antivaccine misuse of the biodistribution study, at least as closely as I can, let’s take a look at the claims of Ms. Olszewski, Mr. Adams, and Dr. Bridle themselves and compare them to the actual study, so helpfully stored at so many antivaccine websites. The original report is in Japanese, but there is what appears to be a machine-translated version available.

The first thing to note is that this biodistribution study is in rats, not humans. Wistar Han rats received a 50 μg dose of lipid nanoparticles labeled with 3H, which is radioactive. Radioactivity was measured in various organs at 0.25, 1, 2, 4, 8, 24, and 48 hours post-injection.

The second thing to note is that this study was only of the lipid nanoparticles, not the full vaccine containing the mRNA for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein. The dose used was 50 μg. The human vaccine contains 0.43 mg ALC-0315=(4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), ALC-0159=0.05 mg 2[(polyethylene glycol)-2000]-N,N-ditetradecylacetamide, 0.09 mg 1,2-distearoyl-sn-glycero-3- phosphocholine, and 0.2 mg cholesterol. That is basically ~0.46 mg lipids or 460 μg. Let’s just round it up to 500 μg (0.5 mg). That’s approximately 10x the dose given to the rats. However, for the typical “70 kg” male, 0.5 mg represents a per-weight dose of 0.0071 mg/kg, or 7.1 μg/kg. Let’s compare to the rats, which generally weigh around 200 g (0.2 kg), give or take, at 8 weeks, which is the usual age rodents are used for experiments. That would translate to a per-weight dose of ~250 μg/kg. Even if you used much older rats, who can weigh as much as twice as much, that would still translate to a dose of 125 μg/kg. So we’re looking at a lipid nanoparticle does of ~18-35x higher (as a rough estimate) than the typical adult human dose. That’s not unexpected. Biodistribution studies frequently use much higher doses than the human dose, the better to be able to detect distribution in low uptake organs, which, it turns out, the ovaries are.

As pointed out by multiple sources, the peak accumulation in the ovaries was 0.095% (or less than 1:1,000 of the total dose of lipid nanoparticle):

I note that Yuri Deigin is often not a particularly reliable source (he’s a big proponent of “lab leak conspiracy theories, for instance), but this time he happened to be correct. Not that even a conspiracy theorist calling them out has deterred antivaxxers:

Because, of course, it hasn’t.

At this point, I can’t help but also point out that there have been actual studies of COVID-19 vaccines and ovarian function. In one such study, for example, researchers studied women undergoing oocyte retrieval for in vitro fertilization. They found no detrimental effect on ovarian follicular function. Another study of women undergoing in vitro fertilization demonstrated that the Moderna COVID-19 vaccine has no detectable effect on the percentage of clinical pregnancies resulting from the procedure. Yet another study has shown that vaccination against COVID-19 has no effect on immunological tolerance of the fetus by the mother. Still another study failed to find any effect on embryo implantation rates between SARS-CoV-2 infection seropositive, SARS-CoV-2 vaccine seropositive, or seronegative women.

It is true that most of these studies are still on preprint servers and haven’t completed peer review yet to be published in a peer-reviewed journal, but the evidence thus far is strongly supportive of the conclusion that neither COVID-19 infection nor vaccination against COVID-19 has any effect on female fertility. While it is true that these studies all examine women undergoing in vitro fertilization procedures and the women who took part are thus not representative of all reproductive age women, these results are even worse for the claim that COVID-19 vaccines cause infertility. Why? Most of these women (surrogates and cases of male factor infertility excluded) undergo in vitro fertilization because of difficulty conceiving, and one would expect such women to be more, not less, susceptible to anything that might impact female fertility. And, as was pointed out by others, several female participants got pregnant during Pfizer’s phase 3 trial, and the only adverse pregnancy outcome was in the placebo group.

But what about the rest of the biodistribution?

As was pointed out before, only around 0.1% of the dose of lipid nanoparticles went to the ovaries. More importantly, 53% stayed at the injection site in the muscle, which is good, given that the whole point of an intramuscular injection is for the lipid nanoparticles to get the mRNA contained within into muscle cells near the injection cite, there to set up shop and provide the template for producing spike protein. Another “popular” site was the nearest lymph node basin, which explains why enlarged axillary lymph nodes (lymph nodes under the arm) have been observed in some women undergoing screening mammography too soon after vaccination, leading radiology and breast cancer specialists to tweak their mammography guidelines to minimize the chance of unnecessary axillary lymph node biopsies. At peak, only 0.02% made it to the brain.

Another thing about Dr. Bridle’s statements that bothered me as I read them. He has conflated spike protein with lipid nanoparticles, not just once, but repeatedly. For example, in this article:

“It’s the first time ever scientists have been privy to seeing where these messenger RNA [mRNA] vaccines go after vaccination,” Bridle explained. “Is it a safe assumption that it stays in the shoulder muscle? The short answer is: absolutely not. It’s very disconcerting.”

Bridle argues that unlike traditional vaccines that stay mostly in the vaccination site at the shoulder muscle, the Japanese study showed how the spike protein of the coronavirus enters the bloodstream and circulates around the body for several days after a person gets inoculated with the vaccine.

The spike protein then accumulates in organs and tissues such as the spleen, bone marrow, liver, adrenal glands, and in “quite high concentrations” in the ovaries.

No, the Japanese biodistribution study shows nothing of the sort. It only looked at where the lipid nanoparticles go. It is true that some of experiments looked at the distribution of lipid nanoparticles containing an mRNA coding for Luciferase, a protein that exhibits bioluminescence allowing for visualization where the mRNA ended up. One interesting finding is that, after an intravenous injection, the predominant organ where the lipids in the lipid nanoparticles (ALC-0315 and ALC-0159) end up is the liver. Both lipids are eliminated rapidly from the plasma by several logs, such that by 300 hours (12.5 days) after injection very little is detectable. In the liver, however, the ALC-0315 takes around six weeks to be eliminated from the liver. One wonders, one does, why antivaxxers aren’t going ballistic about this finding. Maybe it’s because, at the peak, the amount of lipid nanoparticles detected in the liver was only 18%. Who knows? Maybe it’s because saying that lipid nanoparticles cause female infertility is more scary than saying they take a while to be eliminated from the liver.

More tellingly, though, antivaxxers are portraying the Japanese biodistribution study as though it were some sort of “secret” document. (“Confidential”! Secret!) However, it has been public for some time. It’s been publicly available for several months on the Japanese Pharmaceutical and Medical Devices Agency website, and the European Medicines Agency assessment report on the Pfizer vaccine repeatedly references results from the study.

The bottom line is that there is no evidence that the lipid nanoparticles in the Pfizer vaccine (or any of the COVID-19 vaccines) accumulate at significant quantities in the ovaries, much less cause female infertility. This new claim is nothing more than a repackaging of the previous claim that COVID-19 vaccines cause miscarriages and female infertility because of the supposed resemblance of sequences in the spike protein and the placental syncytin protein causing the immune response from the vaccine to attack syncytin, which was a repackaging of old antivaccine claims that vaccines sterilize women. Spike protein does not sufficiently resemble syncytin to cause miscarriages and infertility, and the lipid nanoparticles in the vaccines do not accumulate in the ovaries, much less cause female infertility.

In fact, this new version of the “vaccines are going to sterilize our womenfolk” disinformation about COVID-19 vaccines supposedly causing female infertility leads me to conclude that just as aluminum became the new mercury as the science became clear that mercury in the thimerosal preservative that used to be in some childhood vaccines does not cause autism, lipid nanoparticles are the new polysorbate-80. Does anyone remember polysorbate-80 (also called Tween-80) or Triton X-100, detergents and emulsifiers used in some pharmaceutical products? Antivaxxers used to blame polysorbate-80 found in Gardasil for premature ovarian failureand female infertility. I first wrote about it nearly 13 years ago!

Everything old is indeed new again, with antivaxxers easily repurposing lipid nanoparticles into the role previously held by emulsifiers as the “culprits” in vaccines supposedly causing female infertility, all with a dollop of the “toxins” gambit. I can only speculate what farcical molecular “mechanism” antivaxxers will think of next to blame COVID-19 vaccines for sterilizing our womenfolk.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

121 replies on “COVID-19 vaccines and female infertility: A lie that never dies”

As usual, anti-vax and woo advocates manage to surreptitiously signal their true attitudes about women condescendingly through their ‘sincere’ concern.

Orac is so good at tearing apart unfounded science. Shredding stupid studies. Trashing questionable methodology. I would really like to hear his opinion on the EVALI epidemic! What caused it? Why did it appear and disappear so suddenly? Is not the CDC’s bare association of EVALI with vaporizer use 100% unscientific? Is there any reason to think Vitamin E Acetate actually contributed to the disease? Is there any evidence of what caused the disease at all?

And if not, shouldn’t we conclude that the CDC is a hack organization devoted only to politics?

I suspect you’ll find out soon enough:

“Unlike the vaping illness, classic lipoid pneumonia is typically seen in older individuals, often caused by accidentally breathing in oil-based laxatives.”

If you want to rush a your observations along, you may try aspirating a little dab of Vick’s or, you know, some vitamine E.

No, EVALI has not disappeared, and yes, there is good reason to think vitamin E acetate is involved in pathogenesis. From a Scientific American article in February:

“EVALI cases…continue to be reported, but the numbers have fallen dramatically since the cause was identified. “We had a peak in September 2019, and it’s been declining since then,” King says. He and other experts believe that public warnings raised awareness and may have prompted producers of THC vape liquids to stop cutting their wares with the vitamin, which was used to add volume and make a cheaper product.”

Finally, concerns about vaping increasing susceptibility to Covid-19 remain valid based on evidence to date.

Oh really, EVALI hasn’t disappeared since February 2020? You realize there is no way to diagnose the disease, and it looks exactly like a severe respiratory infection. If someone had EVALI, and also tested positive for COVID, and then died of pneunomia, there would be no way to determine the cause of death. Furthermore, due to false negative COVID tests, COVID may be assumed to be present in anyone with COVID like symptoms.

If there are EVALI cases today, it means the same thing it did in late 2019. It means 1) the patient has severe respiratory disease 2) the patient tests negative for known pathogens that cause respiratory disease, 3) the patient has a history of vaporizer use. That’s it. It is literally disease by association, zero science involved.

“He and other experts believe…”

I don’t care what experts “believe”, I care about evidence. Show me some or don’t bother.

“Finally, concerns about vaping increasing susceptibility to Covid-19 remain valid based on evidence to date.”

Oh excellent, this supports the hypothesis – oops, I mean conspiracy theory – that all the vapers with pneumonia in summer 2019 were actually infected with the initial strain of SARS CoV 2.

@Sirius:
“It is literally disease by association, zero science involved.”

Tell me you know nothing about epidemiology without telling me you know nothing about epidemiology.

Do you know anything about how an outbreak investigation is conducted? You start with what you know and you conduct research based on the hypotheses you’ve generated and then you go generate some more hypotheses. With some conditions this can take months, years or decades.

Biology is rarely tied up in a neat little bow for you. Biology is messy and chaotic and weird and there is so much still we don’t understand. So stop assuming conspiracy and coverup when it’s just “we don’t know yet”.

@justatech, I claimed there was no evidence that vaping and/or Vitamin E caused EVALI. The CDC quietly admits this. But they didn’t come out and say there is a novel epidemic of pneumonia and we don’t know what is causing it, they said there is a novel pneumonia of epidemic which we believe is caused by vaping. This assertion of theirs caused nanny state legislatures to threaten to put JUUL and other legal nicotine vaporizers out of business.

Then the CDC doubled down on their speculation about the cause of EVALI by saying it was associated with Vitamin E Acetate. There was a study that found Vitamin E residue in like 48 out of 51 patients. This is a study I would like Orac to properly thrash.

So I said there was no evidence. If you want to refute my comment, you should reply with evidence, not a bunch of condescending rhetoric. The CDC didn’t come up with their hypothesis after years or even months of observation; they promoted their hypothesis when they were only aware of dozens of cases of the disease. Furthermore, the CDC has had a longtime crusade against vaping, and their conflict of interest in blaming vaporizers is hard to overstate.

It is obvious to me that the CDC switched from blaming legal products to blaming “black market” products because the “black market” is not publicly accountable. This allowed the CDC to let the epidemic disappear with no explanation. It is obviously a coverup. After all, what kind of non infectious “lung injury” causes a systemic immune response, like EVALI?

@Sirius
Relevant paper is this:
Blount BC, Karwowski MP, Shields PG, Morel-Espinosa M, Valentin-Blasini L, Gardner M, Braselton M, Brosius CR, Caron KT, Chambers D, Corstvet J, Cowan E, De Jesús VR, Espinosa P, Fernandez C, Holder C, Kuklenyik Z, Kusovschi JD, Newman C, Reis GB, Rees J, Reese C, Silva L, Seyler T, Song MA, Sosnoff C, Spitzer CR, Tevis D, Wang L, Watson C, Wewers MD, Xia B, Heitkemper DT, Ghinai I, Layden J, Briss P, King BA, Delaney LJ, Jones CM, Baldwin GT, Patel A, Meaney-Delman D, Rose D, Krishnasamy V, Barr JR, Thomas J, Pirkle JL; Lung Injury Response Laboratory Working Group. Vitamin E Acetate in Bronchoalveolar-Lavage Fluid Associated with EVALI. N Engl J Med. 2020 Feb 20;382(8):697-705. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa1916433. Epub 2019 Dec 20. PMID: 31860793; PMCID: PMC7032996.
47/51 is hardly zero.

Aarno, relevant to what? The study only supports the association of Vitamin E with EVALI. As the conclusion clearly states, “Vitamin E acetate was associated with EVALI in a convenience sample of 51 patients in 16 states”. The study makes no claim about what caused EVALI. It only claims to show that vaping Vitamin E delivers Vitamin E to BAL fluid.

The study does not appear to be blinded or controlled in any way, meaning the subjects could have been hand picked for having a history of using black market THC products. This is how the CDC tracked the epidemic: by asking clinicians with patients with a pneumonia of unknown origin about their history of vaporizer use. There is no way to make a positive diagnosis of EVALI. But history of vape use is a prerequisite for EVALI diagnosis.

Also, the lead author of the study works for the CDC, which is the organization here suspected of covering up the true cause of EVALI. Here’s a gem from the study: “The EVALI case definition is intentionally sensitive, which raises the likelihood that a patient’s illness could be misattributed to EVALI.”

@Sirius So there is a coverup, I should have guessed.
But the epidemic is going down:
https://vaporvoice.net/2020/06/19/wisconsin-officials-dramatic-decline-in-evali-cases/
You will notice that is not CDC:Suggestion is that the product formula was changed.
Diagnosis of EVALI is explained there:
Siegel, D. A., Jatlaoui, T. C., Koumans, E. H., Kiernan, E. A., Layer, M., Cates, J. E., Kimball, A., Weissman, D. N., Petersen, E. E., Reagan-Steiner, S., Godfred-Cato, S., Moulia, D., Moritz, E., Lehnert, J. D., Mitchko, J., London, J., Zaki, S. R., King, B. A., Jones, C. M., Patel, A., … Lung Injury Response Epidemiology/Surveillance Group (2019). Update: Interim Guidance for Health Care Providers Evaluating and Caring for Patients with Suspected E-cigarette, or Vaping, Product Use Associated Lung Injury – United States, October 2019. MMWR. Morbidity and mortality weekly report, 68(41), 919–927. https://doi.org/10.15585/mmwr.mm6841e3

Thanks for the link Tim. The most informative graf was this: “According to Finley, more than 4,000 customers over seven years used her company’s product [a Vitamin E + CBD vape] without incident. She contends that one form of the chemical—alpha tocopherol—is safe in low amounts, while other forms, like tocopheryl-acetate, may not be. No peer-reviewed studies exist to confirm or disprove this thesis.”

Also this: “Instead of 10% or 15% propylene glycol cuts, vape cartridge makers could cut THC oil by up to 80%, Honey Cut promised, and consumers would never know.” Up to 80% huh, so why did the “researchers” in Chris Preston’s mice study simulate a concentration of 88% Vitamin E acetate?

I love how you horse flies attempt to refute my demand for evidence by providing sources which say there is no evidence.

They pretty much screwed the pooch when they went exclusivly into mostly robot arms.

Oh grow up, not all of reality can be viewed through the prism of juvenile science fiction and fantasy.

Thanks for the link Chris, I was not familiar with that study – er, I mean “correspondence”. I’m not sure what scientific correspondence actually is, but I’ll assume it’s not peer reviewed and the authors can write whatever they desire. I also note one of the authors is Benjamin Blount of the CDC, who appears to be a career anti-smoking researcher and the lead author of the study that associated Vitamin E acetate with 48/51 EVALI patients.

So what does your not-a-study say? It says they exposed 10 mice to a certain dosage of aerosolized Vitamin E acetate, equivalent to a human vaping a product with 88% Vitamin E acetate. No humans and only ten mice seems insufficient to draw any conclusions about an epidemic that sickened nearly 3000 people. Furthermore, the mice were all euthanized after 2 weeks, meaning we have no clue whether the Vitamin E could have caused mortality or long term morbidity. The dissected mice lungs showed macrophages attempting to clean up the lipoid particles, and other markers of lung injury.

The letter clearly states “additional studies are necessary to determine whether a causal link exists between inhalation of vitamin E acetate and EVALI.” It also says “This study contributes to our understanding of EVALI through the development of an animal model that can be used to evaluate the potential role of the suspected toxicant vitamin E acetate.” So no conclusion, and a raft of linguistic qualifiers? What a waste of ten mice.

Some very important results are mere scientific “correspondence”. For example, The Origin of Chemical Elements, R. A. Alpher, H. Bethe, and G. Gamow, Phys. Rev. 73, 803 – Published 1 April 1948.

A letter to the editor of Physical Review.

Do the Spike proteins, if they go systemic from the vaccines, cause blood clotting?

If so, that would explain all the blood clots from people who have been vaccinated.

After calling Tim a dipshit, I figured I should read your comment policy, to get a handle on your no-no words. I’m told you will not tolerate “Racism, antisemitism, sexism, misogyny, and anti-LGBTQ bigotry”. Now, I’m no racist, but I’ve read a lot of Jewish scripture, and it is obvious to me that Judaism is the very foundation of racism, sexism, misogyny, and anti-LGBTQ bigotry in Western culture. Again, it’s not that I have anything against Jewish people; after all, their racial identity is a myth promulgated by their fake G-d in their fake history book in the first place. It’s Jewish beliefs that are plainly ignorant and the root of much evil. Do you consider criticism of the Old Testament, e.g., to be “antisemitic” or racist?

I also searched your blog for EVALI, and it seems you’ve never paid it the least bit of attention.

Strange.

What does any of this have to do with the post in question, which is about claims about female infertility?

As far as I can tell, nothing.

Siriusly, what is this shit?

You barge in, essentially demanding that Orac write about what YOU want him to write about. Then you take an ableist shot at Tim. Then you go on another (off topic) rant about Judaism.

Time to get out the banhammer.

Of course it doesn’t have anything to do with the topic, the science denier (who can’t even manage to use the search function properly; ORAC wrote several times about EVALI back when it was in the news) is trying to distract.

Search EVALI on the top of this page to obtain one result in which Orac does not discuss EVALI.

Ah, there’s nothing a blogger loves then the “Why don’t you write about what I want you to write about?” gambit.🙄

Why should I restrict myself to a single search term, especially an acronym? As I said, you failed to use the search function properly.

Well? Why don’t you write about what I want you to write about? This place is lame.

Orac, you’re free not to write about it, but it remains the biggest mystery of 2019, along with the containment breaches at Fort Detrick that immediately preceded it. If you can’t see that the leak of a redacted “select agent” from a BSL 3/4 site, and a subsequent epidemic of pneumonia that both clinically and statistically mimicked COVID 19, are plainly relevant to the discussion of the origins of COVID 19, then I don’t know what to tell you. EVALI was an epidemic for which no aetiology could be described. It ought to at least rouse your curiosity.

@Sirius I do not think COVID results with Vitamin E acetate in lungs.

Aarno says “I do not think COVID results with Vitamin E acetate in lungs.” Might as well remember that not all EVALI cases showed Vitamin E acetate in the lungs either. And some EVALI patients only reported using legal nicotine products. But my point is, if you had a pneumonia patient with Vitamin E in their lungs, who also tested positive for COVID, how would you be able to diagnose the cause of the pneumonia?

Sirius- ‘Judaism is the very foundation of racism’ is a ridiculous statement. Recognizing ‘the other’ and discriminating or acting against that group as something different and possibly hostile or dangerous may reside more in our evolutionary heritage than religious text. Religion plays it’s part but is not central to this human ( and other species) fault in our ‘nature’..

Judaism is not about protecting itself from the hostile and the dangerous. It is about conquering foreign peoples for YHWH, and subjecting them to YHWH’s rules. These rules are fundamentally bigoted. You claim discrimination is human; but where else besides the Jewish Bible was it codified so early? The problem with the Torah is that it defines the entire world as “other”. It defines humanity itself as dangerous. Even Hebrews and Israelites are considered “other” when they break YHWH’s rules.

Were the Canaanites acting hostile to the Hebrews or endangering them when Joshua did God’s will by committing genocide against the Canaanites? The Hebrews sent a spy into Jericho to betray the entire city. Not exactly self defense! The covenant with Yahweh entitles a chosen tribe (i.e. a race) to conquer all other tribes, by whatever means necessary. If you can’t see that this is a problem distinct from natural human inclinations, I don’t know what to tell you. It justifies malice and violence through fake history. It is the foundation of the same “supremacy” that metastasized through Christianity and is now inexplicably blamed on “white” people. CRT is advocated by racists trying to cover for an evil religion.

If you can’t see that this is a problem distinct from natural human inclinations

Because of course, it’s only the joos doing that – spying and colonizing and submitting nearby tribes, usually with religious approval.
Not the Ancient Egyptians, nor the Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, the Chinese before and after the three-kingdom war, the pre-colombina empires in middle- and South America, and a few hundreds other ethnicities, whose history is a long list of wars.
“Insiders” and “Others” is codified in all forms of religions/tribal compacts. Any religion is based on a dogma and a set of rules which define who belongs in and who doesn’t, and how someone from one side could go to the other side.
Your stupidity would make me laugh, if it wasn’t that awfully ordinary. The other day, I got a flyer in my mailbox from some deluded fool like you. It was printed in five different colored inks. Funny enough, the writer’s bête noire and source of all evils was not the Jewish people. One of you must be wrong.

As I thought. You are the head of the marketing department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation.

Athaic, are you sure I’m not Harry Potter? If chauvinism is so commonly codified in religious texts, why don’t you provide an example? Let’s also remember that the Jewish Bible is not simply religious – it is deliberately pseudo historical, and was regarded as a literal history book by the West for more than a millennium. Judaism is not a mythology; it is a hoax. There is a difference.

‘He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed’

Sounds like chauvinism to me.

However, you can also include racism in all its colours, regional loyalties, sports team loyalties, national loyalties, ethnic loyalties, class or caste loyalties, political loyalties etc etc etc.

Humans are programmed to think of ‘others’ as less important than our closer contacts. Its no wonder that these attitudes translate into our religions. You’ll find that the feelings came first though.

Sirius- do you really think that Hebraic texts are really responsible for the widespread, varying types and longstanding aspects of human activity we now classify as racism? Many billions of peoples have had no knowledge or contact with those texts yet have, can and do display racism. Influential as Hebrew texts may be or have been in Western Human Culture it’s a bit of a stretch to believe that ,as an example, the ‘white man’s’ antipathy to the ‘black’ man is possible to place at the door of Jewish religion. Was Hitler’s racism against the Jews ( among others also) a result of Hebrew texts. I’m not sure but I don’t think he read any of them as widely, if at all, as you claim?

@ Sirius

The Old Testament (Tnach as well as Torah) is a book written by numerous different authors at different points in time. Even in Genesis are two different orders of creation. So, one can find sections that fit almost any perspective. Before going more into this, how about Islam. Have you heard of ISIS, the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. They force people to convert, they slaughter unarmed innocent men, women, and children, and their doctrine emphasizes that Jews and Christians should be killed. Yet, in the Quran, Mohammed specifically rejects forced conversions, specifically states several times that one cannot harm non-combatants, especially women and children, and that Jews and Christians are the dhimmi (protected class) and Ahl al Kitab (people of the book); yet, not only ISIS; but Al Qaeda, the Taliban, and the Fundamentalist Wahabi’s of Saudi Arabia ignore Mohammed’s teachings. Yet, if one reads every sentence in the Quran and the Hadith (stories of Mohammed and his actions, etc.) one can take out of context just enough, ignore everything else, and voila, one has ISIS, etc. Actually when the Muslims first took Damascus, Jerusalem, and Cairo, they did NOT damage Churches and Synagogues and did NOT harm Jews and Christians.

Have you read the New Testament? Ever heard of the Holy Inquisition? How about Ku Klux Klan burning crosses and murdering and brutalizing both blacks and whites who sided with them? Do you think Jesus would approve? Yet, one can find isolated paragraphs, taken out of context, that could be used to justify just about anything. The history of Christianity is rife with brutal acts. However, for first two centuries Christians were pacifists, then St Augustine wrote about “Just Wars” which allows anyone to justify about anything.

People who have not studied Karl Marx’s actual writings believe the Soviet Union and China were communist nations. Not even close. Prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain, East Germany was call called the German Democratic Republic. I assure you it was neither. I suggest you read Erich Fromm’s “Marx’s Concept of Man” Available at: https://www.marxists.org/archive/fromm/works/1961/man/index.htm [just click on each] Note. explains with numerous quotes Marx’s beliefs; but doesn’t contain bulk of book, excerpts from Marx’s writing. Paperback inexpensive from Amazon.com

I have a thought that if Mohammed were to come back today and visit ISIS, they would behead him.
If Jesus had shown up during the Holy Inquisition or when KKK were lynching someone, they would have lynched him.
And if Karl Marx had shown up during Stalin or Mao’s reign, he would have been executed.

Now, back to Jews and Old Testament. Yep, they slaughtered inhabitants of Jericho; but other Canaanite tribes remained, strong historical and archaeological evidence. But I suggest one paper that summarizes it best, a paper written and endorsed by a World-wide Jewish body. Even in the Old Testament it states: “Be Kind to the Stranger in Your Midst, for were you not once strangers in the land of Israel” The paper makes clear that the word used for stranger meant non-Jew. Read:

Rabbi Reuven Hammer (2016 Apr 21). The Status of Non-Jews in Jewish Law and Lore Today. Available at: https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/2011-2020/hammer-non-jews-law-lore.pdf

Note. I have several other papers; but this is probably the best.

Note that he admits that some groups of Jews and during different time periods the Jews have NOT been kind to strangers, even brutal; but so has every other group. Buddha taught enlightenment, peace; yet look at what Burma, a Buddhist nation did to the Rohingya’s, Moslems, raped and murdered.

As for racism, no nation has a worse history and current status than the U.S. and the major proponents are Evangelical Christians, not all, of course; but many. A new book documents this:
Anthea Butler (2021).” White Evangelical Racism: The Politics of Morality in America”

As for pure brutality, the U.S. since World War II has killed an estimated 20 million people in the Third World, people who NEVER posed a threat to us; but while our government lied about communist threats, our military and CIA furthered the interests of American corporations. Just one example. We overthrew a democratic government in Iran and ended up with 40% of oil rights. Many keep claiming U.S. a Christian nation. I doubt Jesus would approve. And we also have 4% of World’s population; but 25% of incarcerated, an estimated 100,000 TOTALLY innocent, a legal system biased against admitting error and the only “Christian” nation with the death penalty. And if one looks at total of American history, this has been one of the most brutal nations ever, treatment of native Americans, death of 200,000 Phillipinos because we wanted a colony, etc. etc

Read Rabbi Reuven Hammer if you dare; but I doubt you will. You make clear that you are a Jew hater by giving a gross one-sided view of the Jewish religion and Jewish history.

I am Jewish, attended Loyola University of Chicago, have lived in Canada, Sweden, Japan, Phillipines, and Israel, have had friends who were Bahai, Buddhist, Moslem, Arab, etc. and understand that there are good people among every ethnic group and religion and bad people who can pick and choose from their respective religious texts to justify just about anything and everything.

There is actually a fascinating book by Isaac Asimov. “Azimov’s Guide to the Bible” where he goes through the Old and New Testament and points out contradictions, totally wrong points in time, etc.

Too bad you don’t use your real name. There are ASSHOLES, FRIGGING ASSHOLES, and PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO OUTDO THE FORMER. TOO BAD YOU HIDE WHO YOU ARE!

You have no idea who you’re talking to. My criticism of Judaism is valid. Show me another ancient religious text that claims one specific tribe is divinely appointed to despoil and rule over all other tribes. I’ll wait. I’m well aware that the Tanakh is a redaction and not a real history book. For example, it adapts the history of the monotheist pharaoh Akhenaten and his employment of the Habiru into the legend of Exodus. Why call yourself a Jew? Do you consider it your race or your religion? Do you think you are descended from the kingdom of Judah? Do you believe in Yahweh? Are you Zionist?

I am also well aware of the evil excesses of Christianity and Islam. And I will quite simply state that these religions are rooted in the Tanakh. For example, Christian homophobia stems directly from the Tanakh (and the Jew known as Paul). In the gospels, Jesus makes no comment against gays at all, and even encourages tolerance of those “born eunuch”. Yet many Christians cherish Jewish homophobia. Christian racism follows the exact same pattern. Christians who misunderstand the gospel believe that they are the new chosen people, a conceit which inevitably devolves to racial identity. It is Jewish beliefs that have defaced and poisoned the Western psyche.

How about the Vedas?

Mmm… can’t read the Aztec sacred texts because those helpful conquistadors burned them all. But the Aztec were very, very “us vs them” in their religious and political practices.

Come now, don’t be so Eurocentric.

“As for pure brutality, the U.S. since World War II has killed an estimated 20 million people in the Third World, people who NEVER posed a threat to us; but while our government lied about communist threats, our military and CIA furthered the interests of American corporations.”

No fella, the CIA has always worked for Israel. The U.S. since WWII has been unapologetically ZIONIST. They’ve been trying to bring down Iran since day 1, and they still are. U.S. actions since WWII have been openly justified by the Old Testament. So try your argument again.

@ Sirius

You write: “It is the foundation of the same “supremacy” that metastasized through Christianity and is now inexplicably blamed on “white” people. CRT is advocated by racists trying to cover for an evil religion.”

NOPE. Racism in the U.S. actually began with divide and conquer. When Nathaniel Bacon led a revolt against 1%, his followers were white indentured servants and blacks. both free and enslaved who socialized and even intermarried. After revolt failed, 1% decided needed to build a wall between whites and blacks. There is an excellent paper and even better book that documents this. Also, Irish when first arrived in 1840s, 50s in U.S. supported and befriended blacks; but industrialists realized that the combination were a threat so played up the two against each other. In Southern colonies, poor whites and slaves outnumbered the 1% overwhelmingly, so divide and conquer.

Read Audrey Smedley (2007 Mar). The History of the Idea of Race… And Why it Matters

or even better, her book “Race in North America: Origin and Evolution of a Worldview 5th Edition”

Of course, as I previously wrote, one can find sections in any religious text, taken out of context, ignoring the overwhelming, and justify just about anything. Racism in U.S. is still being used as divide and conquer. Wall Street, Corporations, and Super Wealthy play ignorant whites against blacks, immigrants, Hispanics, directing their attention away from what is really hurting them. Just look at current pandemic. Stock market soaring while most people hurting. Even stimulus package was given to corporations with intent they would keep workers on, some did; but others with large cash reserves simply bought up their stocks, driving up price. Yep, you are really STUPID, blaming a book written more than 2,500 years ago, a book written by numerous authors at different points in time, a book with many contradictions, a book that one can pick and choose, either to base a good life on or a hateful life on, like many other religious texts.

As I wrote, there are ASSHOLES, FRIGGING ASSHOLES, AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO MAKE THE FORMER APPEAR BENIGN

Wipe the spittle flecks off your jowls there friend, it’s rather unbecoming. You say the 1% fostered racism in America. OK, I completely agree with you. Now what was the religion of the 1% in the 17th century American colonies, again?

“as I previously wrote, one can find sections in any religious text, taken out of context”

Are you serious? The covenants with YHWH are the central theme of the Jewish religion, not something taken out of context. Jews are YHWH’s chosen people. They are chosen to murder idolaters and nonbelievers, to take their wealth and their land for Yahweh. Yahweh offers his “chosen” people a “promised” land, and this idea of a “return” to Canaan was fraudulently invoked in the Torah, reaffirmed during the Babylonian captivity, later coopted by Christianity, and even today rears its ugly head in the state of Israel, which feels justified in occupying and murdering Palestinians because YHWH said so.

Thanks for taking the time to review all the various studies on this very important topic.

What disturbs me about your writing is the condescending, divisive tone you use. It has the effect of shutting down critical thinking in your readers, as you stir up their hatred against people who have understandable misgivings about how quickly this vaccine was rushed, and the fact that Phase 3 trials are still ongoing. It is really unprecedented to have so many people taking a medical product on EUA, and it is normal for people to be wary. The tone you employ has the effect of pushing away people who are undecided because you are essentially ridiculing their survival instinct to question. Pfizer and J&J have lost multiple lawsuits over the years. As one wit said: how can you trust a company (J&J) who knowingly put asbestos in baby powder?

My question to you is: why the antagonist tone? Could it be you are attempting to bully people who question authorities? Do you understand how you are impacting your own cause?

I speak to many people who are uncertain, and I find that nothing hardens their uncertainty more than fear mongering and ridiculing critical thinking.

As someone who tends to be risk averse, I would rather take a known risk (my 99.7% chance of surviving COVID according to the CDC) rather than an unknown risk (Phase 3 trials continue into 2023).

Thank you for doing what you do to continue driving the uncertain into the hard pass camp. We need as many dissenters as possible if we are to defeat the coming covid pass medical apartheid.

and the fact that Phase 3 trials are still ongoing.

Nope. Phase 3 trials have been completed for all approved vaccines. They are required for FDA approval, even EUA.

As someone who tends to be risk averse, I would rather take a known risk (my 99.7% chance of surviving COVID according to the CDC)

Funny. You trust the CDC, but not the FDA?

the coming covid pass medical apartheid.

And another one with delusions of martyrdom.

@ raphaelle islip

I am getting sick and tired of the same claims. I was a volunteer in the Moderna COVID vaccine trials. Animal studies, Phase 1, Phase 2, and Phase 3 trials were run. In fact, on December 30th, the Phase 3 study was published in the New England Journal of Medicine and December 31st published the Pfizer study. Phase 4 continues, that is, post-marketing surveillance and this includes Vaccine Safety Datalink and other CDC programs, similar programs in numerous other advanced nations. Now six months in to vaccinations and the risk of severe adverse events are extremely low. On the other hand, as the vaccine rate increased the cases plummeted. Israel is a prime example. And more and more studies are finding that a much higher number who were infected but asymptomatic now suffer from various forms of long Covid.

I have never worked for a pharmaceutical company nor FDA, CDC, etc.; but am a 74 year-old PhD retired epidemiologist and have been following COVID since January 2020, downloading over 1,000 papers. And before volunteering I reviewed my texts on molecular biology, mRNA, and found around two dozen peer-reviewed articles on mRNA vaccine research, so satisfied it was a major breakthrough with little risk, I volunteered.

Why does it seem to have gone so fast? Simple, animal, Phase 1, Phase 2, and Phase 3 studies were carried out almost concurrently rather than successively. To some extent this did put volunteers in Phase 3 at some risk; but given my review, minuscule. And the companies were paid to produce the vaccine while trials ongoing. If Phase 3 had failed, the U.S. government would have covered the losses. Normally, vaccine starts being produced after Phase 3 concludes; but the point is that all the requirements were met. Why they haven’t gone from EMA to full approval, no idea; but far more than what is necessary has been completed.

So, if you end up with long covid, blame yourself!

Oh, some antivaxxers have made a big deal that we may need boosters as COVID variants develop. Well, I already phoned those who ran the clinical trial, which I am still part (regular labs, questionnaires), and made sure they understand I will be happy to get a booster. Big deal. Sore arm, slight fever as opposed to . . .

Despite what people claim, I have probably 50 studies of flu vaccine and though only about 50% effective, I get one every year. And recently got booster for tetanus, actually DtaP shot.

If you don’t like the tone used by this blogger, don’t read him. Seriously. He has always written this way (I’ve been reading him for going on 13 years).

Feel free to do a similar write up in a kind and friendly tone. You’ll still be attacked by the anti-vaxxers, the COVID-is-a-hoax crowd, the HCQ pushers and assorted trolls.

I can’t speak for why ORAC chooses an antagonistic tone, but given that many public health officials have received death threats and have been run out of their jobs during this pandemic, it’s hard to be “nice” when other people want you dead.

As for your 99.7% survival statistic 1) that’s not the current value and you would need to take your age, gender and any medical or genetic conditions into account and 2) doesn’t address long-term effects like lost wages from missing work, cost of time in the ICU, Long COVID, etc.

Also, feel free to read the studies for all the vaccines. They’re all online.

I guess you refer you age group related risk (general mortality is much higher). Do you understand what 0.3 % risk means ? Calculate how long you would survive, if where 0.3 % change to die during your trip to work.,

OT, but regarding our new stellar friend and the bashing/misappropriation of CRT
According to a tweet reported by PZ Myers at Pharyngula, US far-right activists have started a trend in this sense, bringing up CRT with any irrelevant topic, to empty it of all meaning (bottom of the post, past the blurb about HCQ).
It’s the new Delenda Carthogo, I guess.
Just so you know.

What meaning does CRT have in the first place? It is a racist theory. I don’t even believe in race. Human diversity yes, race no. So when some assholes make up a theory that I am intrinsically guilty because of my skin color, I correctly recognize that they are racists. I have spent my whole life deliberately renouncing privilege: not because of my race, but because of the ecological crisis gripping the planet. So to now have the presumption of guilt placed upon me because of how I appear to other people, is pathetic. Especially when the proponents of CRT are leading privileged lives in ivory towers.

Congratulations, Sirius, you’ve just told us you don’t understand CRT without saying you don’t understand CRT, as the meme goes.

“So to now have the presumption of guilt placed upon me because of how I appear to other people, is pathetic.”

The list of things about which you have zero understanding seems endless.

@ Sirius

During thee 1500s Japan was embroiled in a 100 years of civil war, clan against clan, translate clan into tribe. Some of the clans literally slaughtered every man, woman, and child, even dogs and, of course, raping as well, of an opposing clan. Then in the 1590s, once Japan was united, they invaded Korea, again raping and slaughtering every living person and dogs. And during World War II the Japanese treatment of Chinese and Phillipinos, etc was equally brutal. Japan’s religions were and are Shinto and Buddhism, no evidence of the Old Testament. In Arabia, prior to Mohammed, tribal warfare was rampant. A defeated tribe meant all males were slaughtered, children and women taken as slaves. Pre-Islamic tribes did NOT base their religions on the Old or New Testament. In South Africa during early 19th Century Shaka Zulu changed warfare from mainly posturing to wholesale slaughter in battles, etc. His was a tribal religion. And in the latter 12th Century, Genghis Khan literally slaughtered every man, woman, and child of any city who opposed him, Baghdad the largest. Genghis Khan had his religion of the Steppes. The point is that historically in various periods of time tribal warfare was extremely brutal. The Jews who invaded the Land of Canaan were a group of 12 tribes. The brutality of Jericho was NO different from any of the aforementioned. Yep, one can find sections of Old Testament that justified, just as each of the above tribes justified their barbarity with their tribal religions.

And Judaism also teaches that “the righteous of ALL NATIONS shall inherit the world to come” and being righteous only requires following the 7 commandments of the Noahite code, e.g., thou shall not kill, steal, etc.

So, as I wrote above, the Old Testament was written by numerous people at different times and one can find justification for about anything. However, I also gave you a paper that shows that overwhelmingly Judaism calls for treating non-Jews quite well. So, taking Jericho as proof of anything just shows what an absolute ASSHOLE you are. Jericho was terrible; but no worse than what other tribes have done in history. And the U.S., as a Christian nation has betrayed Jesus front the beginning, extreme brutality against native Americans, slavery, Civil War brutality, colonizing of the Philippines. I should also point out that under Jewish law, Jewish slaves had to be offered freedom after so many years; but non-Jewish slaves if injured had to also be offered freedom. In other words, yep, slavery did exist; but under Jewish law it was far more humane than American law.

“During thee 1500s Japan was embroiled in a 100 years of civil war, clan against clan, translate clan into tribe.”

No shit, Joel. Were they motivated by a religious text that specifically proclaims tribal supremacy? My whole critique of Judaism is that it codified tribal hatred. So if you want to refute me, show me other religious texts that are as chauvinist as the OT.

And Judaism also teaches that “the righteous of ALL NATIONS shall inherit the world to come” and being righteous only requires following the 7 commandments of the Noahite code, e.g., thou shall not kill, steal, etc.

That’s rich. Citation for your quote? Sounds like something written during the Babylonian captivity. YHWH forbids more than killing and stealing. He forbids gnosis. He forbids idols. He forbids the worship of true divinity. He forbids freedom of every kind. In Isaiah YHWH repudiates the Israelites themselves, and fantasizes about his vengeance on the world. All YHWH really wants are loyal soldiers to secure his throne, to shower him in foreskins and gold.

@ Sirius

I gave you reference to a paper that does a much better job of explaining Jewish attitude to non-Jews than I can and gives the citations you want. Read it you GD FRIGGIN ASSHOLE. Rabbi Reuven Hammer (2016 Apr 21). The Status of Non-Jews in Jewish Law and Lore Today. Available at: https://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/sites/default/files/public/halakhah/teshuvot/2011-2020/hammer-non-jews-law-lore.pdf

And, yep, Japanese clans believed they were favored by one of their gods, so did Arab tribes before Mohammed. And, as I wrote, you FRIGGIN ASSHOLE, the Old Testament isn’t one book; but a book compiled by many authors in different time periods, actually one can find contradictions in it and can pick and choose paragraphs to support just about any position. Have you actually read the entire Old Testament?

I am 74 with arthritis; but I would love to meet you and you say to my face your Jew hating. Only one of us would walk away and it wouldn’t be you.

Yep, Jewish tribes believed they were favored by the god they believed in, just as other tribes around the world.

As for racism. You FRIGGIN ASSHOLE, Jews were more involved in supporting the early civil rights movement than many others. Remember Chaney, Swerner, and Goodman, killed in the South. Two were Jews and Martin Luther KIng’s first attorney was a Jew. King loved him; but had to distance himself because his Jewish lawyer had attended some communist meetings.

You write: “My criticism of Judaism is valid. Show me another ancient religious text that claims one specific tribe is divinely appointed to despoil and rule over all other tribes.” Actually the COVENANT chooses Jews to be a Light Unto the Nations, that is, by following the laws of god, they will be an example for other nations how living a decent life, following the god they believe is the true god, will create a better world. The COVENANT does not give Jews the right to rule over others; but to be role models. Unfortunately, time and time again Jews have failed to live up to this, no more, no less than other human beings. As with all humans, Jews are flawed, not all Jews, just as many Moslems are decent people, Buddhist, Christian, etc. Not you, of course. Do I personally believe in god. Nope; but still believe in what the COVENANT, however it came about, taught us to behave.

And, yep State of Israel claims support from Jewish religion; but, in actuality, Israel is a betrayal of the Convenant. A betrayal of what Rabbi Reuven Hammer documents that Judaism teaches. And Israel is guilty of state terrorism and crimes against humanity. Doesn’t mean I support Hamas either, both betrayers of the religions they claim to follow. I lived in Israel for six months and was involved with groups who wanted one secular nation with a separation of Church and State, something U.S. pays lip service to; but . . . So, I am a non-religious Jew and NOT A ZIONIST.

Throughout history people have always tried to justify what they do by invoking some form of religion. Ever heard of the 30 Years War, Protestants against Catholics, mass rape and slaughter of peasants on both sides, all claiming divine sanction; but in actuality just Protestant Lords vs Catholic Lords greedy for wealth and power.

I also gave you reference to a paper and book documenting that racism in U.S. based on divide and conquer, only justifying later with religion. You ignore what I write. Please, come to my hometown you FRIGGIN ASSHOLE. I would love to put you in the hospital.

Thanks for threatening me with death or debility, clown. It just proves what I’ve been saying: Judaism is intolerant. When you’re beating me up or whatever, I’ll just assume it’s because I’m gay, or a heathen. Par for the course! Although I kindly ask that you leave my genitals alone – some MD already claimed my foreskin for your fake god.

Jeebus Cripes on a crispy cracker! I’ve grown very weary of the incessant off-topic crap around here.

Noted. As for myself, I stop interacting with this guy.

I will just note, for the connoisseurs, “Passer pour un idiot aux yeux d’un imbécile est une volupté de fin gourmet.” (Georges Courteline)

@ Doug

I agree; but Sirius said things that Orac NEVER should have posted; but once up, I could NOT in good conscience allow such a rabid Jew hater to go unchallenged. If you want to protest. aim it at Orac for allowing Sirius to post such hate.

Somewhere, on another thread, under a different nym, Sirius is probably commenting about how antisemitism is all the fault of black people.

Orac, if you don’t want me here, all you have to do is say so. I very pointedly asked if you consider criticism of the Old Testament to be antisemitic, and you did not respond. Old Testament values are what I criticized. If Joel can’t understand that there is a difference between Judaism and “reform” Judaism that’s his elision.

So fine, I won’t comment here any more, you’re obviously a hapless hypocrite who memory holes comments that suddenly become inconvenient. Certainly you’re no kind of computer, just a mentally and ethically compromised little man.

@ Sothis

Thinking on it, I think you are right. The Old Testament, a collection written by different people at different periods of time where one can pick and choose for any position one wants, definitely responsible for most of the ills of the world. The slave trade wasn’t simply based on a combination of the profit motive and imperialism; but mainly on the Old Testament. Killing or forcing conversions to Christianity and Islam not based on any type of tribalism and an unfortunate human tendency to be threatened by diversity; but the Old Testament. Wow! A few tribes in the Middle East, based on what all tribes historically have believed, i.e., their specialness and superiority, now dominates the modern world. The God-King Pharaoh and the Egyptian religion had nothing to do with Egypt’s wars and enslavements, etc. In fact, even the Japanese, Genghis Khan, etc. subconsciously somehow were influenced by those Jewish tribes.

And what of the Old Testament? Well, a few years ago I re-read it, alongside Isaac Asimov’s “Guide to the Bible” and basically laughed and cringed. How anyone can take a book with so many contradictions, wrong chronologies, wrong geographies, sections with a vengeful god, sections with a compassionate forgiving god, obviously god has a split personality. Yep, every evil perpetrated by Christians, Muslems, etc. all trace back to this hodgepodge book. And it is absurd to compare with Reform Judaism any more than comparing Lutheran with Calvinist with Catholics with Quakers, etc. or even comparing Christianity during different periods of history. Of course, change happened. In Judaism from tribes to nation to diaspora; yet each more or less claiming divine revelation. How really is the Old Testament different from various other mythologies?

PBS had a great series entitled “House of the Divine” with sections showing the utter devotion of people in various religions based on however they were raised.

As for the Old Testament, there are people throughout history who claim they spoke with a god. While no way I can state with certainty, more than likely just some form of delusion. So, the ancient Jews, small tribes surrounded on one side by the powerful Egyptians and the other side by the Babyonians or Chaldeons, etc. deluded themselves into believing they were chosen. So what? And again, the Old Testament is not ONE BOOK. In fact, it was compiled centuries after various parts were written, just as the Council of Nicea decided which books belong to the New Testament.

And one can find many contradictions in the New Testament. For the most part Jesus taught love, compassion, being non-judgmental, charity, etc.; but Revelations totally contradictory, so which should one emphasize? Well, some groups of Christians emphasize the main part; but others Revelations. Actually, why Revelations was included is a mystery, not even written by someone who either knew Jesus or lived around time.

So, great, even today a people of maybe 6 – 8 million around the world dominates. So, why haven’t you mentioned that historically accurate document “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?”

By the way, do you also subscribe to QAnon???

And it is interesting how not once have you indicated you read the references I gave, both to Judaism’s position on non-Jews and racism in U.S. based on divide and conquer. I am not going to cut and paste 20 page documents into comments. I gave accurate URLs. So, you stick to your claim, not even addressing anything that contradicts it. ABSOLUTE PROOF YOU REALLY ARE A GD FRIGGIN ASSHOLE.

If you really believe you aren’t anti-semitic, I strongly suggest you seek psychiatric help.

@ Sirius

You write: “Thanks for threatening me with death or debility, clown. It just proves what I’ve been saying: Judaism is intolerant. When you’re beating me up or whatever, I’ll just assume it’s because I’m gay, or a heathen. Par for the course! Although I kindly ask that you leave my genitals alone – some MD already claimed my foreskin for your fake god.”

First, I am an atheist. Second, given you didn’t even read papers I gave URLs to and continue with your hateful attack, if it were an attack on Muslims, etc. my reaction would be the same. People like you are despicable intellectually dishonest hate mongers.

As for foreskins, there is good medical evidence that circumcision reduces risk of penal cancer, etc. and it doesn’t affect sexual pleasure.

As for you being gay, I have had gay friends going back to my late teens when I worked while in college as overnight clerk in an apartment hotel where gays lived. I often studied; but also played chess with them, etc. One was a well-known female impersonator. I still have brochure from his/her act and received free ticket. And my mother’s hairdresser was gay, we met, hit it off and when I was in town would go to lunch. In fact, when I received fellowship to return to Sweden he gave me a great McCloud leather jacket which I still own today. And in Sweden when took first course in Swedish there was an American who I became friends with. Several years later he sent me a letter that he only sent to me and his mother announcing he was coming out. At the time he had moved to another part of Sweden. I visited and he told me that I was the only person he trusted besides his mother. His father was dead. Nope, I’m not gay, not bisexual, so what? I judge people by their decency, integrity, etc., not choice of partners, etc. Note, I still have the letter from over 40 years ago.

As for heathen? You really just want to divert attention from the fact that you ignore, refuse to address the papers I referred to. You are just plain stupid and dishonest. As I wrote previously, I have had and still have friends who are Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, Buddhist, Bahai, Atheist, etc. Black, Hispanic, Oriental, Arab, etc. In fact, last year I sent e-mail to Palestinian friend from 1967 living in Palestinian Authority. In it I decried the Israeli crimes against humanity perpetrated on them.

I really suggest you seek psychiatric help! ! !

@ Joel:

You’re doing a great job countering anti-vax nonsense.
It doesn’t bother me at all if you are “impolite”, “foul mouthed” or whatever else they describe you as being. You are encouraging ideas and information that benefits public health whilst they are frightening people with misinformation and discouraging vaccination and other forms of SBM. Their BS potentially harms people and enables viruses like Covid to keep multiplying and mutating.

A small request:
I know we both have read the same SBM about ASDs and that you wrote a long piece that details how and WHEN the brain differences in autism occur ( i.e. prenatally) thus making the vaccine-autism highly unlikely If you saved that piece, ( small areas of anomaly in the PFC etc)
I suggest that whenever one of the usual suspects rants on about vaccine damage, you post it..

Joel- you have more than ably, with many examples, shown the absurdity of the claim that Judaic texts could be the core responsibility for the many faceted phenomenon of racism. In fact there is no obvious core, prime responsibility but of course there are many different secondary causes. I believe the core resides, if at all, in our evolutionary behavioral development. Prejudice and it’s sub -class racism may have had survival value for a particular group back in the day , long before Judaism , other religions or philosophy. Thanks for your tremendously industrious and informative input.

What about bio distribution to the brain following vaccination?

Mice studies back in 2020 showed that covid spike proteins following deliberate exposure were found in the brain. Lipid nanoparticles facilitate crossing the blood brain barrier.

@ Leonard Sugarman

Yep, tribalism was the norm for many human groups. However, as I pointed out, the Old Testament is a hodgepodge of parts. If modern society, as Sirius would have us believe, is based on it, then I found the following parts and wonder why we don’t follow them all???😀

Old Testament Not Followed Today. Why Not?

Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21 :7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness – Lev.15:19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1 :9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

Isaiah 66:15-18 (NET)
15 For look, the LORD comes with fire, his chariots come like a windstorm, to reveal his raging anger, his battle cry, and his flaming arrows. 16 For the LORD judges all humanity with fire and his sword; the LORD will kill many. 17 “As for those who consecrate and ritually purify themselves so they can follow their leader and worship in the sacred orchards, those who eat the flesh of pigs and other disgusting creatures, like mice – they will all be destroyed together,” says the LORD. 18 “I hate their deeds and thoughts! So I am coming to gather all the nations and ethnic groups; they will come and witness my splendor.”

Yep, don’t you think we should re-write American law accordingly? LOL

And for anyone curious, I highly recommend Asimov’s Guide to the Bible, both informative and entertaining.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “What about bio distribution to the brain following vaccination? Mice studies back in 2020 showed that covid spike proteins following deliberate exposure were found in the brain. Lipid nanoparticles facilitate crossing the blood brain barrier.”

You didn’t give a reference. I found the following three articles:

Elia U et al. (2021 Jun 9). Lipid Nanoparticle RBD-hFc mRNA Vaccine Protects hACE2 Transgenic Mice against a Lethal SARS-CoV‑2 Infection. Nano Letter; 21(11): 4774-4779. {the title says it all]

Kumari K et al. (2021 Jan 19). Neuroinvasion and Encephalitis Following Intranasal Inoculation of SARS-CoV-2 in K18-hACE2 Mice. Viruses: 13(1): 132. [used an intact virus]

Rhea EM Et al. (2021 Mar). The S1 protein of SARS-CoV-2 crosses the blood–brain barrier in mice. Nature Neuroscience: 24(3): 368-378. [“The S1 proteins were radiolabeled in-house, and verified to be intact” If this is the article you refer to, you ignore what I and others have written that the S-Spike Protein used in the mRNA vaccines is not intact; but just a portion, e.g., like tip of finger rather than entire finger. As such it has no mechanism for attaching to or crossing membranes]

So, unless you found another article, as usual you jump to conclusions to back your rigid unscientific beliefs about vaccines. Yep, as you wrote, you go with your gut. Well, I go with the science. If I missed the article you referred to, always possible, give complete reference to it, e.g., author, full date, full title, journal, volume, etc.

@ Joel,

I just wanted to know if mrna covid vaccine spike proteins have been found in human brain tissue. Would require post mortem tissue samples, so I’d be surprised if any papers exist.

@ Christine Kincaid

You wrote: “Mice studies back in 2020 showed that covid spike proteins following deliberate exposure were found in the brain. Lipid nanoparticles facilitate crossing the blood brain barrier.”

I found NO such study, so asked you for reference.

Now you write: “I just wanted to know if mrna covid vaccine spike proteins have been found in human brain tissue. Would require post mortem tissue samples, so I’d be surprised if any papers exist.”

So, does this mean you lied about 2020 paper? If not, give the reference.

And they have done animal studies looking at brain. I gave one that found mRNA vaccine protective. If it protected them, no changes in behavior, etc. why would they look for spike protein in brain.

I guess, despite all the safety studies, despite the international studies showing as covid vaccination rates increases, cases decrease, nothing will change your mind. First, how could they do an autopsy on someone who dies of covid if studies have found NO deaths following the vaccine? But if someone dies following vaccine; but within a few days and they find the LIVE virus in them, then an autopsy finding spike protein in brain will be from live virus. I would bet you would ignore and also find something else to indict vaccines. Then I or someone else will show how wrong you are and you will find something else.

And, as I’ve written several times, though your twins extremely low birthweight and extremely prematurity has been found by research to have a 50% chance of serious brain damage or SIDS, if it is found that infants with this type of extreme conditions should be vaccinated later or not at all, why are you against all vaccines for everyone? As I’ve written numerous times, there are over 25,000 papers on vaccine safety. And one can look at history of smallpox vaccine and polio vaccines. Without smallpox vaccine the population of planet would probably be about 1/3 what it is. Maybe, deep down you hate other people because they haven’t suffered what you have with your infants so you are against vaccines so maybe their children will suffer. I can think of no other logic.

You are a very disturbed individual. You claim a 2020 study, then when I asked for reference, you say you only wanted to know if found in human tissue. Not even close to logical.

Get help. You need it.

I just wanted to know if mrna covid vaccine spike proteins have been found in human brain tissue. Would require post mortem tissue samples, so I’d be surprised if any papers exist.

Hey, you’re here, so the postmortem part can’t be that much of an obstacle. While you’re at it, would you care to define “covid vaccine spike proteins”? Are they like mattress tags?

@ Christine Kincaid

You wrote: “I just wanted to know if mrna covid vaccine spike proteins have been found in human brain tissue. Would require post mortem tissue samples, so I’d be surprised if any papers exist.”

Orac and I and others have explained umpteen times that the mRNA spike protein is NOT the intact spike protein, so impossible could pass blood-brain barrier. You just ignore and continue. I am sick and tired of your dishonesty and outright STUPIDITY.

I could give references to just why the mRNA vaccine spike protein can’t enter cells, can’t cross barriers; but you would just ignore.

YOU ARE AN EXTREMELY DISTURBED INDIVIDUAL

Joel, enough with the f*cking insinuation of mental illness, already. I don’t know what you think is going on, but this is just pot-kettle-black shit.

@ Narad

You write: “Joel, enough with the f*cking insinuation of mental illness, already. I don’t know what you think is going on, but this is just pot-kettle-black shit.”

When someone comments about a mouse study, then when asked for reference says she was only interested in brain autopsy of humans, given numerous other irrationalities from Christine, including her rabid hate of vaccines based on what happened to her extremely premature and extremely low birthweight children which research shows had high likelihood of brain disorders and/or SIDS; but as I explained, even if one made case for such outlier infants, her rabid hate of vaccines is irrational, so given such blatant irrational contradictions, such blatant rabid extreme positions, yep, I think she is a disturbed individual. I guess you consider her perfectly rational.

Sometimes you actually contribute to the conversation, even supply excellent URLs; but other times you don’t.

And actually I was a licensed clinical psychologist in Sweden. I love school more than career, so did research PhD and also took all courses in clinical psychology, plus one year supervised internship at major psychiatric clinic. But I didn’t give any official diagnosis, just disturbed and I stand by that.

@ Joel,

I don’t care who said the “mRNA spike protein is NOT the intact spike protein, so impossible could pass blood-brain barrier”, because the material that gives our cells instructions for how to make the protein, is encased in a lipid nanoparticle, that CAN cross the blood-brain barrier. Lipid nanoparticles are considered to have a high potential for being used therapeutically for this reason; they can transport things that wouldn’t normally cross the BBB, across the BBB.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29886842/

So what I want to know; is if it is happening now, or was documented as having happened during the trials & I can’t find the bio distribution data that should be able to answer that question. That is all.

The article you linked was published in Bentham, a known predatory journal. In addition, nothing about mice (I could only see headings, not the full article).
Post a link to the mouse study you mentioned earlier, or admit it doesn’t exist.

@ Christine Kincaid

So, dishonest as ever. You claimed a study done on mice using lipid nanoparticles with spike protein found to enter their brains, yet I have asked several times for the reference and you don’t give it. I can only assume that you lied about the study.

As for the article you linked to, I couldn’t find article online, so only abstract. It says: “The proposed mechanism of uptake of the lipid nanoparticles. . .However, these
nanostructures need to be investigated intensively to successfully reach the clinical trials stage.” I guess you missed this. No current research it even works, just theoretical speculation, “a proposed mechanism”.

However, for sake of argument, let’s say it would work. That the lipid nanoparticle allowed it to pass the brain barrier. First, since vaccine injected into muscle cells in deltoid, highly unlikely it would go to brain; but, anything possible, so maybe a few manage to get to blood-brain barrier. Well, with the current vaccine, that’s it, the mRNA would enter the brain. Maybe a few mRNA would not be immediately destroyed by brain microglial cells, the immune system of the brain; but if a few managed to be taken up by brain cells, it might result in S-spike proteins being produced on ribosomes in various brain cells, it would be only part of the S-spike protein. It wouldn’t be attached to the virus, wouldn’t have the ability if released into brain of entering additional cells, so, at best, it would be produced by the cells and, as I stated, since injected in muscle cells in deltoid, at best, only a few would make it to brain, if any.

Now we know that Covid, the complete virus, does enter brain and we know what it does. But you rely on a theoretical speculation, ignoring everything we know about Covid. Just typical of you. You want, you need to believe vaccines are dangerous, so you jump at anything that even remotely confirms your bias. You lie about a study on mice. You ignore the overwhelming data on the current vaccines safety and effectiveness. No, not absolutely safe; but nothing is; but the risk from the vaccine is minuscule compared to its benefits, which more and more research is finding long covid even in young asymptomatic people.

And you NEVER even try to explain why, even if one could make a case that extremely premature and extremely low birthweight infants should either have delayed vaccinations or none, why you ignore the history of vaccine-preventable deaths, the over 25,000 vaccine safety articles, etc. and attack any and all vaccines, grasping at straws, in this case a theoretical article and even if future research confirms article, ignore that the spike protein of the vaccine is basically harmless. As I’ve explained numerous times, cut off just someones fingertip to get a fingerprint. It can’t ring a doorbell, can’t pull a trigger, can’t poke someones eye out. Same with the spike protein from the current vaccine. You just refuse to listen.

As I wrote, your refusal to even address, to recognize what I wrote, your rabid jumping at anything and everything, e.g., theoretical articles, etc. make it clear that you are irrational and extremely disturbed individual.

And your finally admitting you can’t be absolutely certain that the vaccine caused your infants SIDS; but your gut tells you it did. Well, my gut tells me that your focusing on vaccines is because of guilt, e.g., smoking, drinking, drugs, during your pregnancy and allows you to ignore your own guilt. However, I NEVER rely on my gut because I know it basis things on subconscious and unconscious biases, irrationality, and emotion. I rely on science and not just one paper. In addition, as I’ve written before, though my gut says otherwise, you may have been a perfect mother during pregnancy; but not a guarantee for anything.

Get help. I am serious, you need professional psychatric help. Stop making a fool of yourself on this blog.

As for the article you linked to, I couldn’t find article online, so only abstract.

You can be quite certain that CK didn’t pay $65 for it, either.

@ Joel,

I never claimed “a study done on mice using lipid nanoparticles with spike protein found to enter their brains”

My exact quote:

“Mice studies back in 2020 showed that covid spike proteins following deliberate exposure were found in the brain.”

Not the vaccine, not the lipids; covid.

Then you say: “Now we know that Covid, the complete virus, does enter brain and we know what it does.”

Yes we do. We knew that back in 2020, starting with the mice studies.

“Biodistribution is a method of tracking where compounds of interest travel in an experimental animal or human subject.” (wikipedia)

Are the vaccine lipid nanoparticles taking their material into brains?

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “I never claimed “a study done on mice using lipid nanoparticles with spike protein found to enter their brains”
My exact quote:
“Mice studies back in 2020 showed that covid spike proteins following deliberate exposure were found in the brain.”

Actually you wrote: “Mice studies back in 2020 showed that covid spike proteins following deliberate exposure were found in the brain. Lipid nanoparticles facilitate crossing the blood brain barrier.”

Then you link to a theoretical paper on lipid nanoparticles facilitating entry into brain. Obviously meaning the mRNA covid vaccine.

You really are extremely dishonest and irrational. And you still haven’t given a single reference to the mice studies! ! ! Yep, no one denies that the intact covid virus enters the brain, so what? You want it to be the vaccine and ignore everything I write and Orac writes.

YOU ARE SICK SICK SICK.

If one were to use your approach to basically all medical interventions, we would be back in the Middle Ages. That is, but what if, it is possible, are you sure, have you researched it and even if 100s of studies did NOT find it, you would still speculate.

GET PSYCHIATRIC HELP.

@ NARAD

I have actually contacted members of Congress regarding cost of journal articles. The vast majority of research is funded by government with goal to further science and knowledge which is what publications are supposed to do. It costs very little to publish online articles. Even a local major university doesn’t have electronic access to several journals because the electronic databases are so expensive. I have suggested that every research grant include a few thousand dollars to submit to quality, and they do exist, open-source online journals. Put the for-profit journals, Elsevier a major greedy one, out of business.

The huge profits made by Elsevier and others just one more example of how our tax dollars enrich private corporations.

It costs very little to publish online articles.

I imagine so for Elsevier, but that’s just cranking the till. You know that I’ve spent quite a while in the scientific publishing racket, right?

In rats.

Of course, just because the hamsters died from SV40 cancer from the polio vaccine in 1959, “didn’t mean it caused cancer in humans”.

You know, SV40 was zoonotic, after all, it came from Rhesus monkey kidney cells.

I still don’t see data on human bio distribution. Shouldn’t be making assumptions on human safety based on rodent data; isn’t that what SV40 taught us?

@ Christine Kincaid

You are despicable, continue to ignore what Orac and I have written. There have been numerous studies of SV 40 and people. The evidence is quite strong that did NOT cause cancer in people, though small possibility that small number did develop cancers 30 – 40 years after vaccine. Well, if you gave me a choice of risk of permanent paralysis now or minuscule possibility of cancer in 30 – 40 years, especially when medical science may have developed effective treatments, I would choose the vaccine. In fact, numerous psychological studies find people emphasize immediate risks over future one; but again, evidence strong SV 40 didn’t cause cancer. The studies were epidemiological. But SV 40 was an intact virus. You keep ignoring that mRNA Covid vaccine produces only part of the Spike protein, not only not an intact virus; but not even a complete spike protein. As I wrote, if one were to speculate as you do, it would be the end of modern medicine.

And you fail to address why, even if one could make a case that vaccines cause problems for outlier infants, e.g., extreme low birthweight and extremely premature, you ignore the history of vaccine-preventable deaths, disabilities, etc. and rail against ALL vaccines.

After 9/11 when there was talk of terrorists releasing smallpox vaccine I contacted local health department to put my name on list because I could then volunteer to help in some way. While the possibility is extremely unlikely, there is evidence that besides one lab in Russia and one in U.S. that smallpox may exist elsewhere. If terrorists should release at several major hub airports, literally 10s of millions would die. There is NO treatment and it is highly contagious.

Wonder what you would do in such an event? Of course, if vaccines had never existed, given you genetic problems, neither would you.

You are an extremely irrational, intellectually dishonest, disturbed person. You need help; but I doubt you will ever consider getting it.

@Christine Kincaid Did you check the dose. It was milligrams per kilogram. This dose is used for pharmacokinetical studies, so it was very high. I agree with Narad that you should find the original paper. I am sure that it is not a broekn PDF paper.
Btw, SV40 do not cause cancer in humans. All epidemiological studies say this. Interesting thing is that there seems to be no RNA in mesothelioma either

@ Aarno,

SV40 causes cancer in humans. It was introduced by the contaminated polio vaccine & ‘practiced’ human to human transmission & is now wreaking havoc:

“The polyomavirus simian virus 40 (SV40) is a known oncogenic DNA virus which induces primary brain and bone cancers, malignant mesothelioma, and lymphomas in laboratory animals. Persuasive evidence now indicates that SV40 is causing infections in humans today and represents an emerging pathogen. A meta-analysis of molecular, pathological, and clinical data from 1,793 cancer patients indicates that there is a significant excess risk of SV40 associated with human primary brain cancers, primary bone cancers, malignant mesothelioma, and non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Experimental data strongly suggest that SV40 may be functionally important in the development of some of those human malignancies. Therefore, the major types of tumors induced by SV40 in laboratory animals are the same as those human malignancies found to contain SV40 markers. The Institute of Medicine recently concluded that “the biological evidence is of moderate strength that SV40 exposure could lead to cancer in humans under natural conditions.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC452549/

The lipid nanoparticles contain cholesterol, which is present throughout the body. When you elicit an immune response against the spike protein, could you be generating an immune response towards “cholesterolandspikeprotein”. Whatever is encountered same time & same route, is considered foreign in its entirety, not specific pieces & parts.?

^ Oh, right:

The Institute of Medicine recently concluded….

Seventeen years ago is not “recent,” dear.

An very iold paper (2004)
.Carbone, a chief proponent of your hypothesis has a more recent one (2020)
Carbone M, Gazdar A, Butel JS. SV40 and human mesothelioma. Transl Lung Cancer Res. 2020 Feb;9(Suppl 1):S47-S59. doi: 10.21037/tlcr.2020.02.03. PMID: 32206570; PMCID: PMC7082262.
“Together this evidence suggests that SV40 may contribute to the development of mesotheliomas in humans. However, epidemiological evidence to support this hypothesis is lacking”
Mouse model he mentioned relies on intracardial injection. Not very realistic.
He did not mention following one:
Gee GV, Stanifer ML, Christensen BC, Atwood WJ, Ugolini D, Bonassi S, Resnick MB, Nelson HH, Marsit CJ, Kelsey KT. SV40 associated miRNAs are not detectable in mesotheliomas. Br J Cancer. 2010 Sep 7;103(6):885-8. doi: 10.1038/sj.bjc.6605848. Epub 2010 Aug 17. PMID: 20717113; PMCID: PMC2966630.

@ Joel
@ Narad:

Before I say anything, I’ll admit that I have no ready answers.

Anti-vaxxers. woo-believers and others hold many mighty unrealistic beliefs and often will fight to the death to defend them. We hear about them in political news, altie websites and from trolls right here. A few of us have even suggested sites that list how many people believe in nonsense ( from anti-vax to BIgfoot) . It is a significant. portion of society.

So I ask myself, ‘ Does belief in unrealistic ideas, not supported by data or by verifiable sources, make you mentally ill?” If so, that would mean that millions of people are mentally ill purely on that alone. But that’s not how we evaluate mental illnesses- there are other indicators – how they deal with tasks of everyday living, patterns of thought, executive functioning, affective symptoms, differences in biology etc. So I personally wouldn’t call someone with unrealistic ideas ‘mentally ill’ BUT the problem is- what do we call them? Also a person who can’t control what they think isn’t in the same camp as the average person who believes in crap by choice.. Can we blame people for inability?

Instead, I observe a certain contrariness that is linked to faulty self-perception/ person perception and an ideology involving a lack of acceptance of the status quo and denial of expertise that is far ranging and often a means of expressing helplessness and lack of agency in diverse domains. They don’t like how the government or economy functions, what research, tells them or their lot in life so they oppose it by fabricating an alternate reality that lifts them up personally as an exemplar/ forerunner of change and holds them blameless. It is a way to escape from what they consider injustice or unfairness. Usually there is a sense of “Someday, I’ll be proven right!” in their complaints sometimes explicitly, sometimes not. On the political scene, reality deniers might include those who have been left out of the new(er) economic system and thus, seek out corporations, foreign powers, secret enclaves or ethnic groups to blame when vaster changes in the world have conspired against older styles of living in general. Can we call them all mentally ill?

Anti-vaxxers fall into two categories those who oppose SBM on vaccines, autism etc purely as contrarians and those who have skin in the game- usually, a child with ASD. RI holds its share of both. Do I think that some of them need professional help- probably, but the deniailsm that allows them to fall into this mode of thinking will probably prevent them from admitting that they are wrong or seeking counsel at all. They seek out fellow/ sister travellers on Facebook, etc to validate them
SO what are we to do with them?
— avoid/ ignore them like the plagues they enable OR
— show how research and consensus science contradicts their conclusions

There is much more but I have tasks awaiting me.
You guys are great..
… . . .

@ Diane

Dictionary definition of disturbed includes: “experiencing or exhibiting emotional disturbance or agitation : having a mental disability or illness”

A “mental disability” isn’t the same as diagnosis of mental illness”.

A disability can include irrational, illogical, rigid thinking, anything that inhibits a person from making good decisions.

Can we say this about significant segment of population. Yep. If we can’t then all those who believe QAnon, etc. should be consider using normal intelligence. NOPE

Christine clearly contradicts herself, grasps at straws, interpreting a theoretical articles as if it had been based on research, ignores the difference between an intact virus, and a not even complete s-spike proteins and just keeps going. If this isn’t a sign of a disturbed person, then what is?

Obviously, her reality testing is lacking.

Also a person who can’t control what they think isn’t in the same camp as the average person who believes in crap by choice.. Can we blame people for inability?

If I could control what I think, I wouldn’t have “Brandy” stuck on a loop in my head. (Deployment of competing earworms is even worse.) As best as I can figure, about three months in the Sunshine State were enough to do me in, although I can empathize with those worse off after a mere couple of days’ experience with its bought-and-paid-for mental health system.
`

@ Christine Kincaid

You linked to a Pfizer document “SARS-COV-2 mRNA Vaccine – Overview of Pharmacokinetic Test.” Can you explain any of the Tables? How does it help your position?
The following are just some of the documents I have, some included summaries of pharmacokinetics and, of course, the peer-reviewed published article of the Phase 3 clinical trial. As usual you find one document and think you have proved your point. Even the published clinical trial is followed by post-marketing surveillance and additional research [Note I have more papers for both Pfizer and Moderna]:

Pfizer COVID mRNA Vaccine Trials
Reference List

European Medicines Agency (2021 Feb 19). Assessment report [Pfizer].

FDA (2020 Nov 20). [Pfizer COVID vaccine] Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) for an Unapproved Product Review Memorandum.

FDA (2020 Dec 10). Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine – FDA Briefing Document.

Pfizer (No Date). SARS-COV-2 mRNA Vaccine – Overview of Pharmacokinetic Test.

Pfizer (2020 Nov). A Phase 1/2/3 Study to Evaluate the Safety, Tolerability, Immunogenicity, and Efficacy of RNA Vaccine Candidates Against COVID-19 in Healthy Individuals

FDA (2021 Jun 11). Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine Page. Available at: https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vaccine {this website links to numerous documents]

Polack FP et al. (2020 Dec 31). Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine. The New England Journal of Medicine; 383(27): 2603-2615.

@ Joel; How does it help your position?”

What position? Did I state some position based on biodistribution to the brain?

I don’t have a ‘position’; I have a concern, regarding the mrna vaccines anecdotal link to rapid cognitive decline.

Btw, who is “Diane”?

As I said before, the nanoparticle dose is very high, much higher one than one used in vaccines. This is pharmatocitetical study, not a safety study.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “@ Joel; How does it help your position?”
What position? Did I state some position based on biodistribution to the brain?
I don’t have a ‘position

You included a link to pharmacokinetic tables for Pfizer vaccine. Why? Had you no purpose? Normal, rational people link to papers, etc. to support some position. Just one more example of how irrational you are, your claiming the link had no purpose.

You write: “I have a concern, regarding the mrna vaccines anecdotal link to rapid cognitive decline.”

“Anecdotal”. Yep. If there were “anecdotal” evidence of no cognitive effects, you would ignore. Orac and I and others have explained over and over; but you are too mentally disturbed and/or plain stupid to understand post hoc ergo prompter hoc. As I’ve written now umpteen times, an average of 2,300 Americans die daily from cardiovascular disease, thus in 10 days an average of 23,000. So, if someone receives a vaccine and dies of cardiovascular disease, say, after 10 days, spouse may report to VAERS. CDC team will conduct a thorough investigation including medical records. Then if stats for cardiovascular deaths for several years previously show NO increase during vaccination period, the two mean wasn’t caused by vaccine. Can one be 100% certain, of course not; but decisions have to be made and the overwhelming evidence would be safety of the vaccine; but not in your mind. And what if they found five cases clearly caused by the vaccine; but, at same time, overwhelming evidence the vaccine saved several thousand lives. Well, I’m sure you would be willing to sacrifice the several thousand to prevent the five. And some, if not all of the five probably would have died from the disease, otherwise why would they die from something that the disease caused in great numbers? A genetic predisposition.

So, once more you show your irrationality and/or stupidity. You link to a paper and claim you had no purpose in doing so. Wow!

I believe Diane has a Masters in Psychology? My first Masters in Social Psychology included a course in Philosophy of Science (basically how one draws “causal” arguments), several research methods courses, and several statistics courses. In other words, I already understood far more than you how to evaluate information; but was taught, was emphasized, to NEVER close ones mind, something you have done.”’

You just keep making a fool of yourself. Why?

@ Joel,

The reports of cognitive decline are coming from physicians & family members.

Her name is not Diane. It’s Denice.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “The reports of cognitive decline are coming from physicians & family members. Her name is not Diane. It’s Denice.”

There are doctors who practice homeopathy and even good doctors may report symptoms, doesn’t rule out post hoc ergo prompter hoc.

In 1976 a patient died of heart attack right after getting flu shot. Doctor reported to CDC. The first mayor Richard Daley of Chicago got his annual physical, pronounced healthy, had massive heart attack in doctors office. One nursing home reported deaths week following vaccine. Later studies found, based on number of patients at nursing home, actually fewer deaths than usual for a week. Point is that individual reports have no validity until further researched.

So, I got her name wrong. One trivial point for you amidst an ocean of irrationality. And if later research finds no association of cognitive decline with vaccine, you will just ignore or look for something else or if finds happens in rare cases, you will ignore the exponentially greater number harmed by virus, suffering, hospitalizations, long covid, and deaths, more and more reports of young asymptomatics with vascular damage and long covid. In your mind vaccines are pure evil.

And again you ignore most of what I write, namely your linking tables of pharmacokinetics.
You are just so incredibly dishonest, so irrational, so STUPID. As I’ve written, even if one could make a case for vaccine and your infants, you rail against all vaccines, totally ignoring the history and current status of vaccine-preventable diseases, the over 25,000 vaccine safety articles in medical journals, many original research, and the overwhelming evidence of the safety of mRNA covid vaccines. Yep, nothing is absolutely safe, so, maybe rare cases harmed by vaccine; but I and rational people look at benefits vr risks and the ratio overwhelmingly backs the vaccine.

There are licensed MDs claiming COVID not a serious disease. How come you don’t believe them? Oh, because only when a few doctors claim anything against vaccines, then you jump on.

Christine, quite simple GO TO HELL

Christine, quite simple GO TO HELL

You could always, y’know, stop playing her game. Mutatis mutandis Gerg.

@ Joel,

Forgetting the name (3 times) of someone you interact with on a daily basis, when you have taken the vaccine that is reportedly contributing to cognitive decline; is relevant.

I misspeak frequently & when I do, even when I correct it; I am attacked here & called a liar & “stupid”. Especially by you, so forgive me if I haven’t had enough coffee yet to be my normal demure self & give you the leeway you would never afford me.

But then again; I am vaccine injured, which leads to me sometimes choking on my words & scrambling my thoughts in text. I’m used to it. Welcome to the dark side.

@ Joel:

You got my name wrong and my degrees wrong! SHAME ON YOU! I guess your information can’t be trusted at all now! Ha ha!

Actually, errors like those are irrelevant especially because I never specify my degrees and if I used another nym, my information would still be based in medical/ psychological research– it’s consensus science. (Actually one degree focused on clinical/ personality social, the second on, experimental: cognition/ developmental/ physiology. Undergrad was something totally different with additional concentrations in social science/ life sciences).
Degrees only force people to survey the entire compass of a field.
As you say, even MDs/ MBBSs can be anti-vax, See Sears, Andy W.. No protection from degrees alone.

Anti-vaxxers’ raison d’etre posits a link between vaccines and autism that WE both know is highly unlikely given that research illustrates the aetiology of ASDs. You wrote a piece about the prenatal origins including Stoner et al, NEJM 2011 about “patches of disorganisation” in the brain that have a prenatal origin
–I suggested that scoffers read/ watch Eric Courchesne UCSD who has 20 minute videos on his WORK OF 40 YEARS as well as videos/ handouts of his 2017 lectures at Rutgers RWJ ( 2 hours plus).including research on gene expression..
— other studies show early indicators of autism well before the vaccines suspected: Ozonoff and others.. Imagery/ brain wave evidence some even prenatal, much of it from SoCal universities. Also work of Lein, Aldridge.

BUT anti-vaxxers assiduously avoid this material as well as what Orac or people like us write because their identity involves belief in anti-vax lore. So they’ll rifle through less relevant studies or misinterpret meaningful ones, cherry picking what they like.

You can’t teach people who already know the answers.

You can avoid interacting with them and/ or write/ link to science that shows their errors, that way, others can benefit.. .

… ,

@Christine Kincaid Was this multiple MMR shots that changed your from neurotypical to autistic ? That is a relly big difference, you know.

@ Christine Kincaid

You write: “Forgetting the name (3 times) of someone you interact with on a daily basis, when you have taken the vaccine that is reportedly contributing to cognitive decline; is relevant.”

My entire life I have been bad at names; but excellent at remembering things like names of different microbes. In addition, as I’ve written previously, though in great health for my age, BP 118/68, Total Cholesterol 159, lately I have been suffering from insomnia, currently going for therapy once weekly. My insomnia started about 2 years prior to getting the covid vaccine. So, I could actually find literature that corroborates that even geniuses, my not being among them, have problems with some things, and are great at others. Typical you, jump to a conclusion.

You write: “I misspeak frequently & when I do, even when I correct it; I am attacked here & called a liar & “stupid”. Especially by you, so forgive me if I haven’t had enough coffee yet to be my normal demure self & give you the leeway you would never afford me.”

I have attacked you for ignoring overwhelming evidence, e.g., the spike protein created by mRNA vaccine is not an intact virus, not even an intact spike protein, so can’t do damage. You ignore the difference between an intact virus, an intact spike protein. After numerous times accusing you, given you claimed absolute certainty the vaccine caused your infants SIDS, you then admitted you didn’t have god-like certainty; but your gut told you that you were right. Guts are extremely biased, based on emotion, irrationality, etc. And you jump on anecdotal evidence. I could go back to just about every wrong thing you’ve claimed; but wouldn’t change a thing, so believe in your irrational, stupid mind that my getting a name wrong early in the morning evidence of cognitive decline from the vaccine.

Oh, by the way, Denice, yep, without looking got her name right, posted a comment. I also got her degrees wrong; but she doesn’t seem to think either one time getting name wrong or degrees in any way reflects on my knowledge of immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, and especially the current pandemic which I have downloaded and either read or skimmed over 1200 papers, e.g,, peer-reviewed journal articles, CDC, WHO reports, and some magazine and newspaper articles that refer to the actual research.

So, yep, Christine your are an extremely disturbed, irrational, and/or stupid person.

As I’ve written before, being someone who prefers being a student/learning, I took all courses in clinical psychology, workshops, and did a one-year internship at major psychiatric clinic, then got my Swedish license. One thing I learned was that the more seriously disturbed/irrational someone is, the less likely they will recognize it. Makes sense and fits you perfectly.

And you obviously either don’t read carefully what Orac writes or ignore him, so, at least you are consistent in your irrationality.

Why do you post on a blog where the overwhelming mass of followers see you as just making a fool of yourself? One explanation, people don’t wish to be invisible, so even being attacked for irrationality, ignorance, stupidity, dishonesty, at least you get some sort of recognition, even if negative.

@ Denice

I have seen several of Courchesne videos and have several of his peer-reviewed papers. Check out Wikipedia. Éric Fombonne. He has done a number of excellent studies on autism, which I have.

Oops! Denice. I just had a cup of coffee, so did I get it right?😀

And someone who has studied psychology, what do you think of my previous comment that Christine posts here because better to be attacked than invisible???

@ Joel:

From what I’ve observed over the past decade, anti-vaxxers follow an agenda initiated by their leaders that they should oppose vaccines at every opportunity and fight SBM whenever they can. This programming includes contradicting anyone supporting vaccines from scientists, celebrities and political leaders to the guy down the street at the market. So obviously blogs written by SBM supporters are prime targets for them.

An aspect of their position involves the idea that someday they will be vindicated and proven correct thus transforming science in a Galilean fashion. They believe that their silence is indeed helping the ‘enemy’ so they must speak out. Their messaging “saves” children from vaccines and other “dangerous” interventions, They believe there is a vast international superstructure that hides “true” information about the dangers of vaccines ( see Kennedy, Null, Bigtree, Tenpenny, Adams etc) which they are eager to overturn so they greet every study or datum as a chance to add to the “mounting evidence” that vaccines are dangerous, VPDs are NOT and ‘natural’ is always best.

I can’t say anything about individuals who follow this plan but it seems to me as a way to increase feelings of self worth: they are on the road to eventual vindication and acclaim as paradigm changers who protect millions of children from harm by powerful cartels of money hungry professionals ( endearing them to Q) Silence is impossible for them. They often have “secret” knowledge that “proves” their case…

In fact, many of the mothers ( and it’s usually women) live a difficult life as caretakers of severely disabled children who will most likely never achieve fully independent living. They are unable to applaud their child’s work in school or career so they instead rail against people whom they believe “caused” their disability. It’s painful for them to hear professionals who did attend “elite” universities and acquired jobs in medicine/ psych/ education tell them that their child will not do so. In addition, the parents’ own plans for careers or retirement might be compromised by their child’s situation; being an anti-vax hero/ ine includes an alternate pathway for their ambition. Some write books, give lectures, organise protests, scan the internet for clues or fight with SBM supporters.

Thus, people like Orac and Co. are objects of their wrath for many reasons whom they’d like to see taken down..

Whilst I don’t think that believing in anti-vax, woo or even Q is enough for a dx, I do wonder about how people can build their lives and outlook around easily dis-provable concepts and unattainable goals.

-btw- having problems recalling names is a frequent complaint of ALL types of people and not a sign of cognitive decline .It’s funny when woo-meisters like those i follow discuss cognitive science and brain issues while they themselves get so much mind-shatteringly RONG!. Or “not even wrong”!

Also, you should see what Italians or Eastern Europeans do with my name! .

@ Denice Walter

Maybe I didn’t completely get your name wrong. Aren’t you an incarnation of the Roman Goddess of the Hunt, Diana?😀

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