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Myocarditis and COVID-19 vaccines

Antivaxxers have been publicizing reports of myocarditis in young people, mostly male, after COVID-19 vaccination. ACIP will be meeting to discuss these reports to the VAERS database today. Is there a connection between mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines and myocarditis?

Later today, the CDC will convene a meeting of the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) to discuss, among other things, reports of myocarditis in young people after COVID-19 vaccination. This meeting was originally scheduled for June 18, but was delayed after President Biden signed a bill into law making Juneteenth a federal holiday. Because June 19 was Saturday, June 18 became the observed holiday this year.

Certainly antivaxxers and the right wing media have been weaponizing VAERS reports of myocarditis after COVID-19 vaccines, even though VAERS reports cannot establish causation, because that is what antivaxxers do. Pre-pandemic, they routinely used this tactic for VAERS reports of autism and sudden infant death syndrome, among other things, even though high quality epidemiological studies failed to find an indication of causation—or even correlation. Since COVID-19 vaccines were distributed under an FDA emergency use authorization beginning last December, antivaxxers have been doing the same thing, exactly as I (and many others who have followed the antivaccine movement for a long time) warned that they would, weaponizing reports of heart attacks, death, syncope, and Bell’s palsy by strongly implying causation and ignoring baseline rates of these events. One antivaxxer has even gone so far as to state that COVID-19 vaccines are killing lots and lots of people in a veritable “holocaust.” So, naturally, when reports of myocarditis in young people started showing up, antivaxxers did the same thing, but, worse, Fox News pundits amplified these reports:

That’s Dr. Peter McCullough, by the way, the same person who was claiming, in essence, a “holocaust” due to the vaccines. More recently, he’s been featured by Mike Adams on his podcast claiming that COVID-19 vaccines contain nanoparticles that self-assemble to build a biocircuitry “operating system” to control your moods and thoughts.

Of course, just as I have said for all the adverse events reported to VAERS, I must concede that it is possible that some COVID-19 vaccines might trigger myocarditis. What’s important is to look at the evidence, which ACIP will do. What is that evidence?

Myocarditis and COVID-19 vaccines in VAERS

At the June 10 meeting of the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee, a report was made regarding myocarditis after vaccination with mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines. At that meeting it was reported that:

  • Out of 3.26 million doses administered to children 12-15 years old (May 10 thru May 31, 2021), there had been 1,497 reports of non-serious adverse events (AEs) and 48 reports of serious AEs.
  • Out of 19.84 million doses administered to 16-25 year olds (December 14, 2020, thru May 31, 2021), there had been 9,439 reports of non-serious AEs and 656 reports of serious AEs.

Most commonly reported AEs included dizziness, headache, nausea, fever, and syncope. But what about myocarditis?

The CDC notes that 226 (of 475) case reports met the CDC working case definition and that followup and review are in progress for the remaining reports. At the time of the report, 270 had been discharged; 15 were still hospitalized, with three in the intensive care unit. Of these ICU patients, two had significant comorbidities (morbid obesity in one; a Campylobacter infection in another).

Of the 270 discharged:

  • 246 (91%) went home
  • three went to another facility (e.g., rehabilitation facility)
  • 21 did not specify

Of 270 discharged, recovery status was known for 221:

  • 180 (81%) had full recovery of symptoms
  • 41 (19%) had ongoing signs or symptoms or unknown status

Basically, in VAERS, there did appear to be a possible signal in that more reports of myocarditis were observed than would be expected without the vaccine in the general population, but only in 16-24 year olds.

So the investigators went to another system to test the hypothesis.

Myocarditis after COVID-19 vaccination (VSD)

Antivaxxers love to portray VAERS as though it’s the be-all and end-all of vaccine safety and there are no other vaccine safety monitoring systems. It’s true, too, that VAERS has a lot of limitations, largely because it is is unique among US vaccine safety reporting systems in that it is a passive surveillance system. It relies on people to submit reports of adverse reactions to vaccines; it doesn’t actively look for them, as active surveillance systems do. Moreover, anyone can submit a report to VAERS, and they do, including parents of autistic children seeking compensation for their children’s autism as being due to “vaccine injury”. Indeed, I long ago discussed how lawyers have long gamed VAERS to support their litigation, reporting lots of cases of autism as supposedly an “adverse reaction” to vaccines. It’s not just vaccines and autism, either. The easily-abused nature of VAERS data is one huge reason why those of us who’ve been following the antivaccine movement a long time like to refer to the bad “scientific studies” published by antivaccine physicians and scientists that use VAERS as their data source as “dumpster diving.” Examples abound, including a study claiming to find a link between the H1N1 vaccine and miscarriages or one of the earliest examples that I ever encountered, Mark and David Geier’s epically bad study trying to link thimerosal-containing vaccines to autism. As an amusing aside, whenever I discuss VAERS, I like to recount the tale of how in 2006 Jim Laidler infamously reported to VAERS that the flu vaccine had turned him into The Incredible Hulk and VAERS accepted the report. True, someone did contact him to question it. If Laidler hadn’t been honest, he could have insisted that the report remain, and it would have.

You might wonder: Why would anyone set up a system like VAERS, which is co-managed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA)? First, you must understand that, as I alluded to above, VAERS isn’t intended to give an accurate estimate of the frequency of various adverse events after vaccination. Rather, it was always intended to serve as an early warning system, a “canary in the coalmine”, so to speak. Consequently, even though antivaxxers like to harp on how passive surveillance systems generally capture only a small fraction of adverse reactions, one thing VAERS does do is capture severe reactions. Practically no one is going to report an adverse reaction like a sore arm or transient fever to VAERS, but you know damned well they’ll report more serious ones, such as a seizure. The problem is that the natural human tendency to seek patterns, coupled with the way antivaccine lawyers game VAERS by having their clients report all sorts of spurious “adverse events” to the database after vaccination, means that VAERS is a very noisy, distorted, and unreliable database.

That’s why there are other systems, including the Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD), which is an active surveillance system with nine participating integrated healthcare systems that covers 12 million people a year:

The Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) is a collaborative project between CDC’s Immunization Safety Office and eight health care organizations. The VSD started in 1990 and continues today in order to monitor safety of vaccines and conduct studies about rare and serious adverse events following immunization.

The VSD uses electronic health data from each participating site. This includes information on vaccines: the kind of vaccine given to each patient, date of vaccination, and other vaccinations given on the same day. The VSD also uses information on medical illnesses that have been diagnosed at doctors’ offices, urgent care visits, emergency department visits, and hospital stays. The VSD conducts vaccine safety studies based on questions or concerns raised from the medical literature and reports to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). When there are new vaccines that have been recommended for use in the United States or if there are changes in how a vaccine is recommended, the VSD will monitor the safety of these vaccines.

So, given the findings in VAERS, the more reliable VSD was used to ask the same question: Is there a correlation between COVID-19 vaccination with mRNA-based vaccines and myocarditis? To do this, patients receiving the COVID-19 vaccines were compared to those in the database who didn’t receive these vaccines during the period in question but received other vaccines on the same calendar days. The data suggest no, at least in aggregate:

Myocarditis and COVID-19 vaccines

Drilling down, however, we see that the confidence intervals are very wide:

Myocarditis and COVID-19 vaccination

There does, however, appear to be a potential signal for an increased risk of myocarditis in young adults after the second dose of Moderna.

More concerning were these data from people 16-39 years old:

Myocarditis after COVID-19 vaccination

Given the increase after the second dose, even if there aren’t more cases of myocarditis after vaccination than might be expected in the general population, this is the suggestion that there might be a signal, leading to the conclusion:

  • Early VSD data also suggest more cases after dose 2 vs. dose 1; rate ~16 cases per million 2nd doses.

Again, currently, even after the second dose of vaccine, myocarditis appears to be a rare event. Skeptical Raptor currently doesn’t think that there is a link between these vaccines and myocarditis while I am a little more concerned, but we both leave our minds open to the possibility as more data come in.

What does this all mean?

Even if this signal seen in VAERS and possibly hinted at in VSD turns out to be real and further investigation finds an elevated risk of myocarditis after vaccination in teens and young adults, it is important to make this comparison:

There are a couple of considerations here. First, even if there is a correlation between mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines and myocarditis in the young, it remains a rare event and serious disability from it is even rarer. Second, as the article cited by Dr. Hotez found, there is a much higher risk of myocarditis after COVID-19 infection itself.

There’s a third consideration as well. It’s a rule in medicine that, whenever you look for something you will find more of it. More than that, though, you will find more of it in a subclinical or milder form that was not picked up before screening. I’ve discussed this before in the context of screening mammography, for instance, and the increasing prevalence of autism. Now that doctors are keyed in to the possibility of a link between COVID-19 vaccination and myocarditis in young people, I would expect increasing reports even if there isn’t a link, which will make sorting this whole thing out even more difficult.

In the meantime, I can’t help but refer to a post I did about a rare form of clotting disorder observed at an even lower frequency after vaccination with the Johnson & Johnson vaccine (for which, by the way, no reports of myocarditis have yet surfaced the last time I checked) and Tweets about the FDA and CDC’s actions at the time that make observations applicable to myocarditis and COVID-19 vaccines:

The bottom line is that safety monitoring of COVID-19 vaccines has been, contrary to the way that antivaxxers portray it, namely as ignoring and downplaying AEs in order to push vaccinations, incredibly intense, serious, and robust. The rapid investigation of cases of myocarditis after vaccination with the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines is just one more example of this. Although I won’t be able to watch it on livestream because I’ll be at work, I will look forward to seeing what sort of discussion occurs at ACIP later this morning.

ADDENDUM

Here are some updates on the ACIP meeting about myocarditis, as discussed on Twitter. I’m using a Twitter feed because all the figures are already there, and I don’t have to make them myself:

The evolving bottom line appears to be that there does seem to be a small but real increased risk of myocarditis from the mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines, but the risk-benefit profile still favors vaccination.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

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DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

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157 replies on “Myocarditis and COVID-19 vaccines”

My son developed pericarditis post 2nd dose Moderna. So I definitely believe this is a link. Reviewing other anecdotal cases, it seems he had a few factors that might become important considerations. One – he had COVID-19 in March 2020 and it resulted in a hospital stay following which he had an elevated HR for a few months (but no diagnosis of myo / peri). Two – he is a 20 year old male. Three – a few hours following his second dose he participated in an athletic activity. Four – although he is otherwise healthy, he has a history of an overactive immune response to prior infections as well as a few allergens. He seems fine now, and strongly recommends vaccination but it will be interesting to see what recommendations come out of these upcoming meetings.

Why on earth did you have your son get this vaccine when he has little to no danger from Covid? My father had pericarditis at age 21 and his life and health was forever affected. He was disabled young and had heart problems for life and died in his 50s. The evidence is mounting that these Covid vaxx are dangerous. It is scary to see people who even face bad results, defend them. Where is your natural outrage for your son and a choice that now will impact his life in a negative fashion?

Is this some kind of Stockholm Syndrome? Why are people giving an experimental vaxx to their kids or telling young adults to line up? It scares me how many excuses people make for these vaxx even for the worse adverse reactions. In a sane world they would be already stopped.

Reasonable parents who have not been misled by misinformation protect their children from COVID-19 because the risks of the disease far outweigh the small risks of the vaccine, and protecting children can also help end the pandemic. Among other things, if you’re worried about myocarditis, you should be more worried about COVID-19, that causes it in much higher rates.

The need to attack parents for protecting their children this way tells us a lot about the biases of the commenter, and nothing about the evidence.

Among all of the other nonsense in your post, this poster’s son is an ADULT, meaning he chose the vaccine for himself.

I’m more curious why the parent/son would think taking a vaccine over a year after having the disease was advised?

Isn’t that like having chicken pox, and then a year later getting vaccinated for chicken pox? But why?

Disclaimer: just being curious asking honest questions; not trying to provoke anyone.

Yes, by all means read up on immunity. Then you might instantly recognize that the preprint says nothing whatever about cellular immunity, work that is far beyond the capabilities of most researchers, and only speculates about persistence of immunity.

The preprint does not alter the fact that the general recommendation is that people who have had COVID-19 should still be vaccinated. At some time in the future, probably at least six months from now, there may be sufficient data to make a definitive recommendation one way or the other. A this time there is not sufficient evidence to say there is no benefit from vaccination of the previously infected.

doug wrote: @doug
A [sic] this time there is not sufficient evidence to say there is no benefit from vaccination of the previously infected.

But isn’t that exactly what https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.06.01.21258176v2 indicated?

From the report:
Individuals who have had SARS-CoV-2 infection are unlikely to benefit from COVID-19 vaccination, ….

And why would you say the researchers were “speculating” about persistence of immunity when it appears they were REPORTING on observed persistence of immunity?

Professor Reiss holder of GSK/Pfizer stock writes, “CDC recommends that people who had COVID-19 be vaccinated because it’s not clear how long immunity from the disease lasts and how effective it is.”

In addition, the CDC does not know how long the protection from the various vaccines is either. And they’re already talking boosters. CHA-CHING! What a cruel, sad joke.

Unvaccinated survivors of the Covid need to be monitored and tested for antibodies to see how long the immunity lasts…but alas there is no money in this study to be made. No end product to be sold.

@ DR Having trouble liking comments. I like other stuff just fine! Standard point simply stated by you — you are more likely to get the same problem w/o vaccination. The hand waving and misdirection by AV folks who JAQ it up and clearly have no interpretive credentials, are so obvious. Glad that it is in the open and explained for those who don’t have their neighbors best interest at heart. You folks are more compassionate than I am! Thanks!

A. Thank you for addressing the Cleveland preprint, Doug.

B. Wanting to believe vaccines are harmful and the disease is not is unconvincing.

C. There are obviously studies of immunity after both the disease and the vaccines. The point is that there is not enough data at present to say the disease provides long-lasting immunity. We cannot in good conscious tell people to get the disease again, but we can recommend vaccines that have been, at this point, shown incredibly safe.

D. Note that the person that mentioned my GSK stock – which is not relevant here – thought it’s appropriate to make up a claim of holding Pfizer stock. Which I do not. I think this is a reflection of the general credibility of this person. Being willing to make up facts is not, actually, a legitimate tactic in a discussion.

@cuckoo4cocabuffs Prof Reiss’ stockholding does not change a simple fact that CDC recommends vaccination for people who have had COVID. You must check the reason of this recommendation

” claiming that COVID-19 vaccines contain nanoparticles that self-assemble to build a biocircuitry “operating system” to control your moods and thoughts.”

If that were only possible – you could replace missing nerve chunks, rebuild heart valves, etc. It would be amazing.

As usual, RFKjr’s CHD is right on the case with a story today.

It will take a while to determine if there really is a signal despite its rarity. IIRC, in the case of narcolepsy in Scandinavia, it took a long time to reach a(n inconclusive) result. In the meantime, anti-vaxxers are fear mongering which will hamper vaccination rates amongst younger people which are already problematic.giving the virus its shot.
What makes matters worse is that the general public often has trouble comprehending odds especially when they involve rare events 1 in a million may sound as if it will happen to them, whether it is an adverse event or a lottery win when it’s quite unlikely, nearly impossible in my book. I worry more about more frequent scenarios- like getting infected
e.g. in my county just outside of [REDACTED] with nearly one million residents,officially at least 100 000 got Covid and over 3000 died
I’m also more afraid of car crashes than I am of plane crashes..

Denice Walter wrote:
“In the meantime, anti-vaxxers are fear mongering which will hamper vaccination rates amongst younger people which are already problematic.giving the virus its shot.”

But younger people are the least affected/least at-risk segment of the population for what is a verifiable low mortality disease. Why would low vaccination rates be “problematic” among a demographic that is least likely to be affected adversely by the disease?

With that said, it’s interesting to note that the inverse appears to be true regarding the vaccination. I.e., the younger population appears to be MOST likely to be adversely affected by the vaccine! (e.g., myocarditis)

Just because younger people don’t get seriously ill or die as much as older ones do doesn’t mean that they’re all alright. In fact, as higher rates of older people are vaccinated, the hospitalised population has become younger. Johns Hopkins Dec 2020 reports on younger patients in hospitals; Reuters, yesterday, even young patients with less serious symptoms may experience long Covid.
PLUS if they recover or experience only mild symptoms they can still transmit the virus to others:: more time/ transmission equals more chances for variants
.
The :’UK’ virus, alpha, was more transmissible than the original and delta, ( ‘Indian’) now is 60% more contagious and more likely to cause serious disease than is alpha.
The alphabet doesn’t stop at delta and neither will the virus.

WSJ:

new variantS of Covid Delta ARE springing up in India- called Delta PLUS. They may be easier to transmit or may make treatments less effective- they don’t know yet..

India had a low rate of vaccination and didn’t contain the virus early on so it was able to continue multiplying making it more likely to mutate which it did. Although it probably started in India, Delta is now very common in the UK and spreading in the US both of which are far away from India

PH measures aim at containment of a virus at the start: if it spreads throughout the population, there are only more restrictive options- you can’t just shut down one small part of a city or one locale. Later on, vaccines can reduce the number of vulnerable people so if a town has 50 000 inhabitants but if 80% are vaccinated it’s as if there are less people or they are more distanced and therefore there is LESS chance for the virus to multiply more and mutate more..

Hmmm….myocarditis. Sounds awful. Evidently the condition creates scar tissue on the heart muscle. So even the ones who recover, may have early onset congestive heart failure and need to be on meds for the rest of their shortened and winded lives. Poor children. Poor parents. Imagine the guilt, especially considering the low, I mean low numbers of symptomatic Covid in children. Sad.

I don’t think President Biden will be making his 4th of July goal especially with this latest inconvenient coincidence. The last of the holdouts can’t even be bribed, shamed, coerced to take the “free” vaccines. People are sharing stories about adverse effects from the vaccines, oops, I mean inconvenient coincidences.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/06/06/vaccination-rates-decline-us/

These numbers haven’t changed in weeks. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=u.s.+covid+vaccination+rate

As far as herd immunity, stop ignoring those who have had a Covid infection. If these folks are counted, have we reached herd immunity?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzVS4soCak8

If there were herd immunity there were no covid. So we have not reached it yet.
Perpahs ignoring stories woul be a good thing ? Nobody would tell stories about nothing happening.

I’ve got to hand it to Orac for letting these types of comments pass. I’ve commented on “contrarian” blogs and have gotten the heavy hand hard and fast. Sample size of me, those who complain about censorship, deplatforming, cancel culture etc are sure as heck quick to shut down the nonbeliever.

WaPo:
CDC: although there may be an association, a pause like that for the J and J vaccine may be unwarranted.
Males 12 to 39 had a rate of 1/31K, females 1/212K, usually mild cases
BUT with Covid, the rate of inflammation was 1/ 3200.

But we all know it’s far better to die young of a natural disease than to live a long life due to an unnatural vaccine. Regrettably, I am no longer able to die young so I got the vaccine.

The claims this is “rare” are dubious. I wonder how many fatigued young men there are now, wondering what’s wrong who simply haven’t been diagnosed. Autoimmune disorders can take longer to diagnose. VAERS is estimated to have only 1-10 percent of the reports. If you read Covid Vaccinated on Reddit, that’s enough to know lots of side effects are happening. Also something is utterly stupid about giving a vaxx to young people that can give them a fatal autoimmune disorder ruining their health for life when Covid is far more less risk. Many of the younger kids aren’t even getting informed consent here, and who knows what those endless spike proteins will do in the more long term.

@ fivehundredpoundpeepf

You write: “VAERS is estimated to have only 1-10 percent of the reports.”

Actually studies have found that around 25% of serious adverse conditions are reported to VAERS; but VAERS reports are not valid until CDC teams thoroughly investigate. There are other valid CDC programs, e.g., Vaccine Safety Datalink and similar programs in many other advanced nations.

You write: “I wonder how many fatigued young men there are now, wondering what’s wrong who simply haven’t been diagnosed. Autoimmune disorders can take longer to diagnose.”

An autoimmune disease develops if a small section, called epitope, of an invading microbe is very very similar to a small section of some body cell, called molecular mimicry. The mRNA vaccine produces only a part of the s-spike protein and it isn’t even close to any body cell. And despite what you choose to believe, given the immense attention given to the current vaccines, by now there would have been validated reports. On the other hand, recommendations are to give the vaccine, if possible, to those suffering from autoimmune diseases because they are much more vulnerable to covid and at risk for severe reactions.

You write: “Also something is utterly stupid about giving a vaxx to young people that can give them a fatal autoimmune disorder ruining their health for life when Covid is far more less risk.”

As I wrote, basically no risk of autoimmune disease from vaccine, though I never rule out extremely rare events. However, a number of studies have now found that young people, 20% or more, even asymptomatic, have developed cardiovascular problems and vascular damage. It may be subclinical; but such damage can lead to long term consequences. And young people have been hospitalized and some have died, plus, they could be carrier that passes on to others, including parents, grandparents, who may have been vaccinated but did not develop robust immune response or, perhaps, couldn’t be vaccinated.

You write: ” and who knows what those endless spike proteins will do in the more long term.”

NOPE. The mRNA vaccines breaks down rapidly in the cellular cytoplasm, so only produces a limited number of spike proteins; but not even complete spike proteins, so they are incapable of attaching to and entering cells and only last a short time before immune system gets them.

You just don’t get anything right.

@Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH

Dr. Harrison,

What about what he DID get right?

Namely, that myocarditis has been found to be caused by the covid vaccine? From my reading that seemed to be his first point.

Recall that he wrote:

“I wonder how many fatigued young men there are now, wondering what’s wrong who simply haven’t been diagnosed.”

Fatigued implying afflicted by myocarditis.

And even going with your 25% figure, that means possibly 4 times more young men than are being reported are being afflicted with what is a potentially life long disease by the very thing they thought was a cure for any future covid ailment(s).

Note that I’m not making any claims one way or the other. I haven’t yet taken the time to compare adverse events/deaths from the vaccine to those from covid, something I’ve been wanting to do for a long time now!

I just don’t appreciate that you accused fivehundredpoundpeepf of not getting anything right when you completely ignored his very valid first point.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7449230/

“A major potential concern in SARS-CoV-2 vaccine development is VAERD, which is associated with induction of nonneutralizing antibodies that can lead to immune complex formation, complement activation, Th2-biased responses, and immunopathologic complications. Mitigating approaches that may be used to avoid vaccine-enhanced disease syndromes include eliciting potently neutralizing antibodies with functional activity commensurate with binding, as well as avoiding Th2-biased CD4 T-cell responses.54 Here, we show that mRNA-1273 induces high levels of neutralizing activity and Th1 responses with low-to-undetectable Th2 responses and no pathologic changes in the lung in either of the mRNA-1273 vaccine groups 1 week after challenge.”

hmm “immunopathologic complications” isn’t that we are seeing now with the myocarditis. You all brush off autoimmune conditions like they are “nothing”. I am deafened by one and have multiple others even one that is supposed to attack muscles and has started on skin. And these are just the early stage people? Do you want disabled children with multiple autoimmune diseases. Remember I took ALL other vaccines and had no problems with them, but these mrna are a problem. Don’t get me started how someone even with history of pericarditis, arteritist and Kawsaki disease in the SAME immediate family hasn’t even been warned of any contradictions. I saw the FDA list of diseases and warnings, and Kawasaki and pericarditis were right on there.

I have noticed people with autism have been told to line up and multitude others with higher risks of autoimmune disorders.

Don’t you think 20 percent is high enough now to stop promoting young people from taking this vaccine for a virus they have little to no risk from? I know the “me generation” seems to have twisted around one life rule which is the old are supposed to sacrifice for the young not the other way around.

As for the spike proteins, how does production STOP? no one has explained that one. Why are their people warning of these proteins folding and giving folks neurodegenerative diseases? Symptoms could take years and then the damage will be done and then it is too late. What assurance can you give that these vaxx won’t cause prions? One year is not enough time.

In fact one scientist said focusing on the spike protein which is showing massive vascular damage too, [Salk institute] Whose bright idea was to have the Covid vaxx focus on spike proteins when the spike proteins from Covid itself can do damage to the human body? What would prevent the fake rna from folding into a prion? This study even discusses the prion-like domains of Sars2, and someone thought this was a good idea to replicate it in the body.

https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/202003.0422/v1

@fivehundredpoundpeep

“A major potential concern in SARS-CoV-2 vaccine development is VAERD …”

Did you actually read the quoted paragraph to its end?

@Chris Rasmus Being fatigued means that you have myocarditis ? Gee, I have myocarditis every night, Thankfully, it is over next morning.
@Cuckoo4cocoabuffs Actually read the paper. It says VAERD is a concern, but they did notice it. This was why the study was done.

Could you provide a cite for statement “Actually studies have found that around 25% of serious adverse conditions are reported to VAERS” – Thanks.

@fivehundredpoundpeep:

Also something is utterly stupid about giving a vaxx to young people that can give them a fatal autoimmune disorder ruining their health for life when Covid is far more less risk.

Not only are you assuming facts not in evidence, you are downplaying a disease that has already killed millions.
Even young people have been hospitalised by COVID. You are saying that this is less of a risk than the vaccine causing a hypothetical (and i must stress hypothetical) autoimmune disorder.
This is textbook antivaccine propaganda. Downplaying the harms of the disease and greatly exaggerating the risks.

Why do you want your children or young adult children experimented on for a disease they have little to no risk from? This is the old sacrificing the young for their well being and the epitome of selfishness. You don’t line a kid up for a drug that can cause life long issues when it’s a disease they have very little danger from. You don’t put children at risk of DEATH without informed consent for a disease they have very little risk from. The story of the 12 year old on this list is heart breaking. Children are already losing their lives. This shows a nation without conscience.

https://www.c19vaxreactions.com/real-stories.html

you all sit in your ivory towers and ignore the real human effects here….”its rare”, oh really? How come I am seeing blatant censorship all over when it comes to anyone admitting adverse effects?

I know people who have had adverse effects including a 30 something who had seizures out of the blue for the very first time after getting a Covid vaxx.

A link to a website that contains supposedly true stories of adverse reactions from the COVID-19 vaccine? Colour me unconvinced.
The internet is like a public square. Anyone can make any claim. I ask, have these events been confirmed as having happened? If so, have these events been medically confirmed as having been caused by the COVID-19 vaccinations?
All you have is a bunch of stories and no way of verifying if the vaccines were responsible, or if these supposed events occurred at all.
P.S. I’m Generation X, not a Boomer, and I have no children. What I have are two parents in their 70s and a sister with a family of her own. When it is time for me to get jabbed, I will happily roll up my sleeve.

@ hfpp What claims? Why are they dubious? The rest of your comment is a mishmash of nothingness IMHO. You make claims without substantiation. Kind of blows your comments into a despairing ditch.

@ cuckoo4cocopuffs

You write: “Hmmm….myocarditis. Sounds awful. Evidently the condition creates scar tissue on the heart muscle. So even the ones who recover, may have early onset congestive heart failure and need to be on meds for the rest of their shortened and winded lives. Poor children. Poor parents. Imagine the guilt, especially considering the low, I mean low numbers of symptomatic Covid in children. Sad.”

First, the risk, even for young people, of myocarditis is exponentially higher from the actual covid virus. Second, the rare cases in young men have almost all be extremely mild, follow ups have found NO damage to heart muscle. I never rule out extremely rare cases; but I look at the risk from the disease vs the vaccine. Recent studies have found 20% or more of young healthy people infected with covid, even asymptomatically, have sustained cardiovascular problems and/or vascular damage, May at time be subclinical; but could lead to long term problems. So, as many, you don’t do your homework, or ignore the research that clearly finds that covid is dangerous even for healthy young people.

You write: “As far as herd immunity, stop ignoring those who have had a Covid infection. If these folks are counted, have we reached herd immunity?”

First, studies find that those actually infected with covid have lower antibody counts than those vaccinated; but I don’t know where you live; but my hometown has reached herd immunity by counting those fully vaccinated AND those who have been diagnosed with covid. However, there are sections of country with increasing rates of hospitalizations, long covid, and deaths because low rates of vaccination. In fact, just in today’s paper:

Heather Hollingsworth (2021 Jun 24). Missouri sees COVID spike amid low vaccinations:Hospital estimates 60% of patients in ICU younger than 40

Did you notice “60% of patients in ICU younger than 40???

@Dr. Harrison:

Could you please clean up your arguments here and make them look less like an advertising promotional campaign and more like an analysis by providing some foundational arithmetic to these statements that you made:

“Recent studies have found 20% or more of young healthy people infected with covid, even asymptomatically, have sustained cardiovascular problems and/or vascular damage, May at time be subclinical; but could lead to long term problems”

When you stated that “20% or more of young healthy people infected with covid” –
please specify by defining an actual age range, from which age to which age, for the cohort of “young” people you reference.

What percentage of that cohort of young people is this? For example, suppose for example (I’ll leave it for you to provide the actual number, this is an example) .X% of “young healthy people” generally get “infected with covid”. So for these numbers you would be talking about .Y% of young people “sustain[ing] cardiovascular problems [etc.]”

I will defer to you for the actual, more or less specific actual age range you mean by “young people”, the actual numeric percentage of that healthy cohort who has been documented to have become meaningfully infected with covid, as well as the actual numeric percentage of the latter that actually “have sustained cardiovascular problems [etc.]”, thereby demonstrating how dangerous “covid [actually] is … even for healthy young people”, as opposed to the danger to that same healthy, young cohort from being experimentally injected with mRNA.

Thank you for your clarifications.

@Aarno Syvänen

1) 404 error (page not found) on your link

2) Re-read my questions more carefully, “20% is not a bad number” is an undefined statement and meaningless, without specifying 20% of what exactly? That’s one of the questions I asked. “20%” is not being questioned.

3) Example: “20% of lots of young people is very dangerous” – meaningless and even strange, without quantifying “lots” and specifying age cohort etc., of “young” people.

Everyone, especially educated, credentialed scientific and medical professionals should know the importance of, know how to, and be practiced at defining and quantifying data sets under examination/discussion.

There is a proper citation:
Clerkin KJ, Fried JA, Raikhelkar J, Sayer G, Griffin JM, Masoumi A, Jain SS, Burkhoff D, Kumaraiah D, Rabbani L, Schwartz A, Uriel N. COVID-19 and Cardiovascular Disease. Circulation. 2020 May 19;141(20):1648-1655. doi: 10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.120.046941. Epub 2020 Mar 21. PMID: 32200663.

@Aarno

Thanks for taking the time to post that paper reference.

As you know, it’s a seemingly reasonable survey paper (from about 1 year ago), but it doesn’t give any 20% figure for myocarditis/vascular problems in “young people”, it notes >7% in infected people without known preexisting cardio/vascular pathology, and ~22% for infected people with known preexisting cardio/vascular pathology,

The experimental mRNA product causes similar problems in injected (young?) people.

The only question is severity and quantification, whether it’s for COVID, “Long” COVID, or for mRNA products’ short, intermediate and long term. For experimental mRNA products, only short-term morbidities have been somewhat quantified, as the only available data is at most 3.5-4 months old.

@Quasidomo About “experimental mRNA product”. COVID vaccines have passed clinical trials hundred milloin doses are given. This is hardly experimental. They elicit immune response against a specific target, which is the definition of a vaccine.
Presentation of myocarditis data after vaccination is here:
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-06/03-COVID-Shimabukuro-508.pdf
Estimation of preliminary data is 26 per million. It is much less than, say, 7%. You will notice that VAERS data is taken very seriously, though there are other safery tracking systems.
There is a presentation of myocarditis
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-06/02-COVID-Oster-508.pdf
Myocarditis is actually a young persons’s disease. It is caused by infection (mainly) not by eating hard fats.

I’d like to see a citation for

The experimental mRNA product causes similar problems in injected (young?) people.

But this whole argument is based on people being more afraid of VAERS reports about a nonlethal and probably treatable condition in a modest number of people vaccinated with one of the Covid-19 vaccines than they are about the real effects of the disease. And they keep coming back to the claim that children are less at risk and therefore don’t need to be protected with a vaccine.

That makes it convenient for them to ignore results like this.

https://www.aappublications.org/news/2021/04/19/pediatric-covid-cases-041921

Children are making up a growing share of new COVID-19 cases in the U.S., accounting for nearly 21% last week.

About 88,500 new pediatric COVID-19 cases were reported between April 8-15, according to the latest weekly report from the AAP and Children’s Hospital Association. Since the start of the pandemic, more than 3.63 million children have tested positive, making up about 13.6% of all cases.

At least 297 children have died of COVID-19, about 0.06% of all deaths. About 0.01% of children diagnosed with COVID-19 have died. At least 14,849 children have been hospitalized, about 2% of all hospitalizations. Roughly 0.8% of children with COVID-19 have been hospitalized.

And long term Covid-19 symptoms are common among children as well as adults.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7927578/

Evidence from the first study of long covid in children suggests that more than half of children aged between 6 and 16 years old who contract the virus have at least one symptom lasting more than 120 days, with 42.6 per cent impaired by these symptoms during daily activities. These interim results are based on periodic assessments of 129 children in Italy who were diagnosed with covid-19 between March and November 2020 at the Gemelli University Hospital in Rome (medRxiv, doi.org/fv9t).

The UK Office for National Statistics’s latest report estimates that 12.9 per cent of UK children aged 2 to 11, and 14.5 per cent of children aged 12 to 16, still have symptoms five weeks after their first infection. Almost 500,000 UK children have tested positive for covid-19 since March 2020.

@Aarno Syvänen

In the FDA publication of some of Pfizer-BioNTech’s promotional materials and claims for their EAU “experimental mRNA product”, look on page 4 last paragraph, last sentence:

“Pfizer-BioNTechCOVID-19 Vaccine is still being studied in clinical trials”.

Furthermore, on page 1, last paragraph of the promotional marketing material for the experimental mRNA product:

“ThePfizer-BioNTechCOVID-19 Vaccine is an unapproved vaccine that may prevent COVID-19.

There is no FDA-approved vaccine to prevent COVID-19”

Source:
https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download
revised: 25 June 2021

1) Your link is not promotional materisl. It is a FDA factsheet for recipients and caregivers.
2) it speak about vaccines, all the time.
3) Current vaccines are used under EUA. Exolanation is here:
https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained
“From a safety perspective, FDA expects an EUA submission will include all safety data accumulated from phase 1 and 2 studies conducted with the vaccine, with an expectation that phase 3 data will include a median follow-up of at least 2-months (meaning that at least half of vaccine recipients in phase 3 clinical trials have at least 2 months of follow-up) after completion of the full vaccination regimen. In addition, FDA expects that an EUA request will include a phase 3 safety database of well over 3,000 vaccine recipients, representing a high proportion of participants enrolled in the phase 3 study, who have been followed for serious adverse events and adverse events of special interest for at least one month after completion of the full vaccination regimen.”

@Aarno Syvänen

1) Promotional material definition, 3rd definition from https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/promotional-materials:

“Promotional Materials means, all written, printed, video or graphic advertising, promotional, educational and communication materials (other than the Product labels and package inserts) for marketing, advertising and promoting of the Product in the Licensed Field, for use (i) by a Sales Representative or a Medical Science Liaison or (ii) in advertisements, web sites or direct mail pieces.”

2) Why would one fixate on phylum, ie, broad concept of vaccine, a term which has been recently adjusted and propagated to include mRNA and vector virus products?

Why would one dispute a definition that is now in common use and understood broadly and not material to understanding anything?

Why would one obfuscate more specific discussion of species, ie, specific product claimed and promoted by the distributor and their government partners as a vaccinating agent, herein specific spike-protein generating mRNA, which is after all what is actually being considered here?

3) US FDA EUA regulations for medical appliances, devices and other products, etc. use in an emergency, with definitions of an emergency, what conditions, etc., is self-explanatory, well defined and specified legally. A description of as well as links to the US EUA regulations are included unambiguously in the FDA document I linked – why does it look like you being redundant or trying to imply the EUA and.or what it is is being concealed?

All of the above behaviour and polemic appear typically in followers and proselytizers of religious dogmas, believers in some nonfactual conspiracy allegation(s), or some kind of amateur promoter for example, a sports-team fan or habitual purchaser due to ‘brand loyalty’ rather than objective merits of product as seen typically in most users of Apple products, and of course, professional promoters (one who receives material compensation of some kind or has other professional interests for promoting something).

Sincere thanks for your patient elaboration on and exhibition of your stance on the subject.

It is important to acquire a meaningful perspective on the response and rationalisation processes of educated, informed, inquisitive and knowledgeable disciplined minds, thanks again for your valuable contribution.

Ah, argumentum ad dictionarionum. Who doesn’t like white flags?

However, it might, just might, as opposed to, say, coughing up fact sheets from the FDA and babbling about how they’re “promotional material,” figure out why they’re on the damn site in the first place.

This is not hard. The fact sheets stand in lieu of VISs for drugs under an EUA. That’s it.

@Narad

If you’re so compelled, start a separate thread with interested parties arguing the semantics of definitions immaterial to the discussion that you weren’t having with the people actually discussing main topics unrelated to the semantics of a definition brought up by someone who is not me (Aarno) non-contextually for some reason which if you need to know, you can ask him why he’s asking, not me, because it’s not my question it’s his, and based upon your comment, it’s not your question either because you already have your own answer to it.

Narad, you might find it helpful to seek insight with the aid of qualified professional(s) in the relevant psychological arts to determine why certain words are so loaded/triggering to you, as well as assist you in suppressing acting on your obvious compulsion to forcefully provide empirical proof to any observer that you can’t understand what an average non-mentally-defective understands easily.

I’ll explain to you, Narad, in the interest of avoiding cruelty to the demonstrably feeble-minded and personality-disordered such as yourself:

Aarno wanted to know, among other things, why I used the term ‘experimental mRNA product’, to which I demonstrated, from the FDA EUA manufacturer-provided promotional literature itself, with a link, to said document updated not longer than 2 days ago, where the product is indeed defined as such.

I don’t take it for granted that English is a native language for some commenter on the internet, and even if it is that the commenter is even of average proficiency at using English for precise communication, and even if so, generally precise commenters such as Aarno and I, for example, reasonably demand and provide source links for specific statements made.

You clearly have a problem understanding / using or even knowing that the term “promotion” has several different use contexts besides the kind you are familiar with and triggered by causes only you may or may not be aware of.

Finally, let me close with these facts:
1. mRNA and virus vector vaccines are being promoted by the manufacturers as mitigators of COVID mortality along with allegations of reduced morbidity and extant but minor risks of severe adverse events from or with COVID (Wuhan Sars-COV-2 infection and certain variants) as compared to one who opts out of using these products.

The manufactures provided promotional materials, under penalty of perjury, supporting their above claims for their products in the FDA EUA application.
They and the regulatory body both clearly state that the product is undergoing clinical trial which is ongoing at this time.
Various national health authorities (CDC, NIIAD, NIH, etc.) are promoting the manufacturers’ products for the benefits claimed above.
The products and effects of all kinds are being studied, noted, documented, etc., whether empirically, anecdotally, observationally, controlled, uncontrolled, etc and reports of such are periodically publicised.
Different studies are being promoted, to either promote or discourage use of these products.
Perhaps you might be closer to understanding by now, perhaps, Narad. I hope I helped promote a better understanding of different proper uses of the words promote, promotion, promotional, etc. Maybe you’ll have the good fortune later, if I have time, to benefit from a few more lessons in precision and accurate communication using other frequently used but sady, less frequently well understood by unfortunates like yourself, Narad,

∗splorf∗

Quasoid, you have just fallen off the turnip truck. I have been here long enough that any RIgulars who care already know what my métier is, and it more than moots your hilariously projective, long-winded attempt at pretending that your and Aarno’s exchange aren’t still sitting right here. Of course, you could figure this out just by searching my name. If you ask really nicely, I won’t make you have to cipher out my surname first.

I’m not going to ask for your GRE scores, O wordsmith.

@Narad

You are almost as amusing as kicking around a hackeysack, and just about as boring but at the same time slightly less intelligent than the average hackeysack.

Don’t take my word for it you “tremendous douche suffering from Dunning-Kruger.” [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Respectful_Insolence]

You’re famous! Thanks for playing skidmark junior, LOL

@Quasidomo
1) Your link does not speak about “exprimental products”. It speak about vaccines.
2) Your link describes side effects and as you said, it tells that trials are still going on. It looks very much like package insert, and is certainly written by FDA.
3) You said that trials are still going on. This implies that there is no safety data. So I cited conditions for EUA, meaning that there is two months of safety data available.
This not exprimental.

@Aarno Syvänen

I didn’t say trials are ongoing, the FDA said that in their published data, updated on 25 June 2021, in the document I linked directly from them, as you correctly pointed out in ‘2’ of your reply.

I don;t know what you mean, you write:
“So I cited conditions for EUA, meaning that there is two months of safety data available. This not exprimental.” which was in response to my statement:

“For experimental mRNA products, only short-term morbidities have been somewhat quantified, as the only available data is at most 3.5-4 months old.:

Because, here are the agreed facts:
1) Only short term safety data is available (two months according to you, 3.5-4 according to my sources)
2) Clinical trials are ongoing
3) Large amounts of data are available due to the certainly large number of injected experimental subjects.
4) It’s reasonable to assume that at some point long-term data will be available, obviously in the long term

I won’t argue about or define ‘experiment’, ‘experimental’, or ‘long term’, or ‘safe and effective’ or fundamentals of determining such in medical applications, etc.

The interested reader lacking familiarity with those terms, concepts and standards are encouraged to learn the topics well and draw conclusions.

The “Narad from RI” page has a ceiling cat. Awww, how quaint.

@ fivehundredpoundpeepf

You write: “If you read Covid Vaccinated on Reddit, that’s enough to know lots of side effects are happening”

NOPE. No way of validating. In fact, some could be antivaxxers posting whatever they think will turn people away from vaccines. Others could simply be post hoc ergo prompter hoc. As I’ve written before, on average 2,300 Americans die daily from cardiovascular disease, so if someone gets a vaccine and dies, say 10 days afterwards, on average 23,000 Americans would have died from cardiovascular disease; but a spouse, etc. may still submit a VAERS report or Reddit. Same with numerous other conditions. If reported to VAERS CDC does a thorough investigation, including when possible obtaining medical records. In addition, they look at similar periods of time, perhaps, over several years when, for instance, covid vaccine did not exist. If same number of overall deaths from various disorders then two pieces of information would rule out.

One can find QAnon on social media, various blogs, etc. doesn’t make it true.

Dr. Harrison,

This is something that’s bothered me for a while now that I’ve heard you and even Dr. Orac assert. Why would an anti-vaxxer post ANYTHING to VAERS/Reddit?

Assumedly, and by definition, anti-vaxxers don’t get vaccinated.

Exactly, why would they be posting about side effects on reddit? These were the people who obeyed and lined up. Many of the stories are heart breaking too. Many of them were young people who had their whole lives before them. Some are now permanently disabled and this from the vaxx not from having Covid.

One thing about me I wear the masks [KN95] and believe the virus is real. Some here are unable to think out outside the right and left stereotypes. I openly protested Trump, protests signs and all and voted for Biden. I feel very betrayed.

Long observation of their behaviour has demonstrated that anti-vaxxers lie. About a lot of things. It is almost as if it is compulsive and they cannot help themselves.

There is no antivaxxer bias. Problem is that if somehing happen after vaccination, does not mean the cause is vaccination. How many people get a heart attack inside a month after Robert Kennedy Jr rally ?

On this site, anti-vaxxer = anyone who criticizes vaccines or vaccination policy. Just because they get vaccinated does not mean they won’t be assumed to be anti-vax.

The antivaxx industry has a need to generate antivaxx substantiations simply to legitimize their existence. It is so in the antivaxx wheelhouse to produce every bit of mayhem / condemnation / complaint to any program of vaccination. Do you think no one is analyzing the field of misinformation and other considerations? Waiting for antivaxx industry to produce evidence that getting vaccinated is not as good as getting the disease. Antivaxx advocates getting sick as the better healthcare option.

No reason yet specified by AV that their belief is safer against disease. It’s appalling there’s no valid evidence provided to support the antivaxx position by their own member organizations! My theory is that almost all VAERS entries are from antivaxx individuals and groups.

BTW I don’t have to provide any evidence because this is nothing but a rhetorical game that AV (and others) play — you know, smoking is good for you, people choose to smoke, no global warming caused by humans, evolution is not proven, the list is amazingly long. I just have to get my message out there as a competitor even if it is so unsubstantiated. Yea, 1M scientists are wrong and conspiring to help people live better lives. How awful!

You do realize it’s a federal crime to post a false report to VAERS right?

That’s absurd that false reports are common there, who would take the risk.

Maybe 1 or 2 pushed the envelope, but ok let’s say your theory is correct, then you are basically telling us there’s no supervising agency to keep track of over all side effects where patterns could be seen. Do you think average American Joe Smoe even knows about VAERS and how to report or that busy doctors take the time. The rate of reports there has been said to be within 1-10 percent.

You keep using that term “Antivaxxer” as a propaganda term. These techniques used here make your arguments weaker. Someone who took two vaccines last year is not an antivaxxer. I did not shrink from getting a tetanus booster, I don’t want gene therapy trash that does not give immunity or stop transmission.

I am not a Q and protested Trump except now I ask why, as the left is betraying on endless levels, allowing voter suppression and now this totalitarian mess. I am old enough to remember WTO protests and Occupy where the cries were NOT blindly trust corporations!

@ fivehundredpoundpeep

You write: ‘the left is betraying on endless levels, allowing voter suppression”

Democrats passed a good voter law in House; but was blocked by Republicans in Senate. It is in Republican dominated state legislatures that voter suppression laws are being passed and now we have a Federal Court system, not only Supreme Court dominated by Trump nominated and Republican Senate approved justices.

I think you are more than just stupid; but someone who needs psychiatric help. You seem to be delusional.

@Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH

Democrats passed a good voter law in House

LOL. That “good” law would have allowed people to print ballots at home, mail them in, and it would prevent states from checking signatures or IDs.

Yeah…great law.

Once again you prove you know nothing.

VAERS reportss are not (generally) false. They are reports about what happens after vaccination. They do not imply causation

@ fivehundredpoundpeep

You write: “You do realize it’s a federal crime to post a false report to VAERS right?
That’s absurd that false reports are common there, who would take the risk.”

First, as I’ve written, post hoc ergo prompter hoc, people believe because something follows something, first must have caused; but what preceded? Lots of things; but they remember vaccination, probably because of all the negative publicity from antivaxxers. So, it is only a crime if one “knowingly” files a false VAERS report, not a crime if one is just stupid like you.

You write: “Maybe 1 or 2 pushed the envelope, but ok let’s say your theory is correct, then you are basically telling us there’s no supervising agency to keep track of over all side effects where patterns could be seen. Do you think average American Joe Smoe even knows about VAERS and how to report or that busy doctors take the time. The rate of reports there has been said to be within 1-10 percent.”

First, studies have found up to 25% of serious adverse events are submitted to VAERS. Second, the CDC has several excellent programs that do work, e.g., Vaccine Safety Datalink, directly connected to databases of major health care organizations, include demographics, e.g., sex, age, comorbidities, vaccine lot number, date, subsequent doctor visits, etc. The VSD database contains data compiled from surveillance on more than seven million people in the United States, including about 500,000 children from birth through age six years (2% of the U.S. population in this age group. And it isn’t the only program used by CDC. In addition, numerous other advanced nations have similar programs. The CDC in the U.S. is the supervising agency. Go to CDC Vaccine Safety Page.

In addition, surveys find the vast majority of Americans know about VAERS. First, by law, every time one is given any vaccine, one must be given a Vaccine Information Statement which explains minor adverse events, rare serious adverse events and specifically explains if one experiences either how to contact VAERS. Second, many doctors offices have on wall poster explaining VAERS. Third, newspaper articles, blogs, social media, etc. What planet are you on?

You are a really sick moron!

@ fivehundredpoundpeep

You write: “You keep using that term “Antivaxxer” as a propaganda term. These techniques used here make your arguments weaker. Someone who took two vaccines last year is not an antivaxxer. I did not shrink from getting a tetanus booster, I don’t want gene therapy trash that does not give immunity or stop transmission.”

Orac, myself, and other commenters have explained over and over again that mRNA vaccines are NOT gene therapy. They can NOT enter the cell nucleus, they can NOT do anything to the genes. The mRNA simply goes on ribosomes in the cell cytoplasm, outside the cell nucleus where the genes are, and produces part of the spike protein. Despite what you in your immense ignorance choose to believe, the mRNA covid vaccine is highly effective with minimal risk. And you arrogant moron, just because you are willing to get traditional vaccines, the vast majority of those opposed to the current covid vaccines are against ALL vaccines, thus, antivaxxers. Not a propaganda term. How can anyone be either as ignorant as you or so dishonest. There are literally 100s of websites and organizations that overall are against all vaccinations, though they claim not against vaccines, just want to be more effective with NO risk, so no vaccine currently acceptable to them.

And as an undergraduate one of my roommates was President of local chapter of SDS, led draft card burning, etc. I didn’t burn my draft care, too chicken; but participated in many anti-Vietnam War demonstrations and pro Civil Rights demonstrations, etc. My undergraduate degree was in Political Science and Social Psychology. Even took three courses in Constitutional Law.

“Orac, myself, and other commenters have explained over and over again that mRNA vaccines are NOT gene therapy. ”

Yeah keep repeating that…

“although we expect to submit BLAs for our mRNA-based product candidates in the United States, and in the European Union, mRNA therapies have been classified as gene therapy medicinal products, other jurisdictions may consider our mRNA-based product candidates to be new drugs, not biologics or gene therapy medicinal products, and require different marketing applications”

“”Currently, mRNA is considered a gene therapy product by the FDA.”

Interesting how definitions of things are changed…..

https://investors.biontech.de/node/8746/html

By the way when you throw out name calling it doesn’t help your argument.

Not impressed by the boomer virtue signaling.

Some authors have theorized the baby boomer generation is some of the most sociopathic.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/baby-boomers-sociopaths_n_58b9a358e4b0d2821b4dd797

hmm left the world a worse place…yeah right on that score. Even the sacrificing the young for the old is the continuation of these themes.

As for civil rights and more where will those be under a medical dictatorship where vaccine passports are required [papers please!]? In your privilege you seem to have no way of understanding how your lock downs and pushing of Covid vaxx has affected the working class and poor. They estimate in my area alone, one third of all businesses have gone bankrupt and closed. Our local inner city areas are hurting beyond measure.

You obviously have no social justice ideals in your discourse with a disabled woman, and obviously due to your mindless support for Covid vaxx don’t think much of ADA either. Via all your posts here, your expectation that I should embrace living as a second class citizen because I am unvaxxed, is a loathsome one.

The typo, again. MRNA itself does not change DNA, of course. A reverse transscriptase is needed for that. Perhaps retrovirus vector is assumed here.This would indeed be gene therapy.

My undergraduate degree was in Political Science and Social Psychology.

Clearly that is where you went wrong. You should have been a Skinnerian! 🙂

P.S. Joel will get the joke. Younger readers may not.

@ fivehundredpoundpeep

You write: “Exactly, why would they be posting about side effects on reddit? These were the people who obeyed and lined up. Many of the stories are heart breaking too. Many of them were young people who had their whole lives before them. Some are now permanently disabled and this from the vaxx not from having Covid.”

Just as I explained for those posting on VAERS, post hoc ergo prompter hoc, they believe vaccine responsible and as I also explained, antivaxxers could be posting anything to get people to reject vaccinations. As opposed to VAERS no way to check out validity of posts on reddit, something one usually can do on VAERS. Just how STUPID are you???

The first mayor Daley of Chicago got his annual physical, doctor told him he was in good shape, had massive heart attack and died. In 1976, a man got the Swine flu vaccine in doctor’s office, had massive heart attack and died. Got into the newspapers. Later investigation found history of heart attacks, 90+% atherosclerosis. Shit happens!

Roosters crow, sun rises, so would sun stop rising if we eliminated roosters???

How many times does one get to call another poster ‘stupid’, or a ‘moron’ before they get flagged/warned?

I for one am getting really tired of reading some people’s blatant verbal attacks on one’s mental acuity over, and over, and over. It’s different to call into question the veracity of one’s assertions. But to just straight up call an individual stupid and a moron? Why is that even tolerated here?

coughDr. Harrisoncough

Could it be if you’re a Dr. Orac sycophant that you get a free pass?

Thank you. Honestly it’s to be expected, if people don’t even care that people are being harmed by these Covid vaxx, then the lack of empathy shines through. I think one reason America is in trouble in general is an epidemic of malignant narcissism. I also do not think people who feel strong in their position would have to stoop to such things. You know with all the gaslighting, censorship I personally viewed before I even formed an opinion on the Covid vaxx, and insults here, that only strengthens my distrust of their beloved vaxxes. Sadly the public has paid dearly for a huge failure of the system on multiple levels. Fauci donated 600,000 in funds to Wuhan, where the gain of function research led to this whole debacle, the conspiracy theorists believed i it was “planned” but perhaps it was just sheer incompetence.

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/03/08/josh-rogin-chaos-under-heaven-wuhan-lab-book-excerpt-474322

He can call me stupid all he wants but I know when people do not deserve my trust. He can blame the “antivaxxers” and defend a corrupt system, that rewarded him while destroying others. Many lives have been utterly ruined and destroyed.

None of them will ever take responsibility for fuck-ups beyond measure. I don’t want to play roulette with my already ravaged immune system. Funny how there is anger towards lay people like me and the public who no longer believe privileged elites or lets say mid level people like the ole doctor here are always trustworthy. So yeah he will scream stupid, but he has enough cognitive dissonance showing we can all hope one day he listens to.

No, I think Orac understands that sensible people are getting tired, so very tired of people coming to these issues without any intention of changing their minds when presented with high quality scientific evidence. It makes you despair of humanity. And at this stage in the pandemic, when it’s so very obvious that the vaccinated aren’t dropping dead in droves, but people just pivot from one scare tactic to the next, that some people break out with the occasional mild insult.

Perhaps Joel should say that some people do their best to hide their presumably great intelligence.

There is a rule about this blog and that is if people come to the blog with idiotic talking points they have picked up elsewhere, no evidence and no willingness to change their minds when presented with evidence it is right to call them stupid trolls.

Also I should point out that tone trolling goes down very poorly here.

Now you know the rules, present your evidence or go somewhere else to troll.

Sometimes calling someone “stupid” is simply an accurate description of their rational capabilities, based solely on the logical content of their posts.

Perhaps a quick visit to the nearest mirror would increase your understanding. Okay

£500peep says “I think one reason America is in trouble in general is an epidemic of malignant narcissism.”

You are absolutely correct. Every time I see an unqualified commenter dismissing the work of tens of thousands of scientists and health professionals from around the world, this is exactly what I think.

Then I wonder why we bother with job interviews and education since it appears that certain members of the population believe having an opinion is just as good.

@fivehundredpoundpeep Fauci does not decide who gets NIH grants. They are decided by perr review process.
Gain of function studies used mouse coronavirus. Its sequence similarity with SARS CoV 2 is 80%, much lower than any natural viruses.

Even Robert W Malone, MD (the inventor of the mRNA vaccines) says young people should not be getting it.

@Orac

’m getting a real “inventor” of email vibe

Your racism is showing.

Robert W Malone, MD?

Anyone who agrees to be interviewed on Del Bigtree’s HighWire is already in Kool Aid territory. Serious scientists steer clear of appearing with cranks like Bigtree.

So young people should be infected instead? I know I just opened THAT can of worms, LOL.

@ Chris Rasmus

If you had really followed this blog for a long time you would have seen how I have gone out of my way to explain things, including numerous references; but when people just continue to ignore and keep on with the same claims, yep, they are either morons or just sick individuals who post to provoke.

You write: “Could it be if you’re a Dr. Orac sycophant that you get a free pass?”

If you read what Orac writes, detailed rebuttals to antivaxxers, etc. including numerous links, you might, if you have a brain, find he makes SCIENTIFIC sense. Since, though not as brilliant as he is, I am also a trained scientist, it isn’t being a sycophant that we think alike. He has a PhD in molecular biology, much higher than me; but I do understand the basics of molecular biology, etc.

FUCK YOU ASSHOLE

@ Aarno Syvänen

You write: “Perhaps Joel should say that some people do their best to hide their presumably great intelligence.”

Let me give an analogy. As a kid I tried out for all kinds of school sport teams. Didn’t make any. Poor hand-eye coordination and slow reflexes. I really envied the school sport champs; but many smoked, drank alcohol, etc. I didn’t. I started being a vegetarian in my late teens, jogged, walked long distances, used stairs, swam, off and on did moderate weight-lifting and trained Aikido for a number of years (nope still poor reflexes but it was fun, great group of people). So, here I am at 74 on NO medications, low blood pressure, total cholesterol good, and after 70th birthday had CT scan of coronary arteries. Expected maybe 20-30% atherosclerosis. Essentially ZERO. I was shocked. Now, I would be willing to bet that many of the high school and college athletes I so admired are either already dead or not in best of health. Some, of course are. So, I used whatever I was born with as best I could.

Same with intelligence. I love reading and learning. I try never to assume I am absolutely right, often phone or e-mails friends/colleagues who are experts in immunology, microbiology, virology, etc. So, not a super genius. And I know people who were fellow students obviously smarter than me; but a number in dead-end jobs. They partied, etc while I was in library. So, when I call someone stupid or a moron, I’m not alluding to whatever brain power they were born with; but that they don’t use it. For instance, to understand vaccines, one should have a minimum understanding of immunology, microbiology, infectious diseases, and epidemiology. I don’t mean a PhD or an MS or MPH, not even a BS; but at least taken one or two courses in each and/or read a textbook, or even, as I did for over 30 years, read Scientific American articles on the aforementioned.

Antivaxxers, QAnon believers, Trump supporters, etc. may, at least some of them, have an above average intelligence level; but don’t use it to question. And, of course, some who promote the aforementioned benefit from it, e.g., make money.

And many antivaxxers, etc. who post on this blog clearly either don’t actually read what Orac writes (including checking out his links), don’t understand, or choose not to understand.

@ Joel:

I have a feeling that intelligence is only a small part of the equation.
Research about personality / social variables suggest that believers in anti-vax and/ or CTs are more likely to think of themselves as being different/ special- not members of the common herd- and more likely to not believe in hierarchies of expertise so a parent who reads altie websites or watches you tube about vaccines imagines him or herself to be superior to experts in highly specialised fields .Similarly, they respect the opinions of other brave mavericks who go against the grain and challenge authority, no relevant educational qualifications needed and disparage people who have worked in the field for decades ( Fauci). We see that right here at RI with scoffers and contrarians..

In fact, amongst those I survey, leaders are congratulated for their ‘knowledge’ and ‘expertise’ in opposing the Orthodoxy and preparing a New Paradigm like Galileo did. Much of their worship of these iconoclasts perhaps boils down to a cult of personality.. Often, I wonder how their judgment about ability or intelligence holds up when they select people like Del, Mikey, Gary and others who would have problems** dealing with actual university courses in subjects like epi, immunology, bio , physio etc. YET that’s what they talk about and critique endlessly

Notice that trolls bring up objections and new dissenters nonstop…

** evidenced when they mispronounce or misuse common terms in these fields that actual students would have heard a thousand times. .

Yep, YouTube will get you up Mt Stupid very quickly. Real knowledge comes from spending forever in the Valley of Despair.

As an aside…
For the past two weeks or so, I have encountered increasingly virulent and unrealistic loads of BS about Covid, disparaging vaccination, presenting objections to PH policies and mis-informing readers, perhaps on a vaster scale than I have ever witnessed – and I’ve been doing this for a long time. Altie prevaricators list ‘doctors and scientists’ who are as contrarian as they are, saying that “every opinion must be heard” altho’ anyone can say anything but it doesn’t mean that it has any value. It is even difficult to rank the worst of the worst. So I’ll try to write about positive developments.

So I wondered what’s happening. Could it be that FINALLY after 16 months of PH measures against Covid, we are actually starting to see daylight?** Whenever I buy airline tickets, I follow prices for the date in question as well as others: since early May, prices have gone up. My tickets would now cost about 50% more than what I paid and it’s NOT next week or very soon. I also read about places I visit or live near and most restrictions have lifted as numbers have gone down .

I can only surmise that anti-vaxxers and woo-meisters are starting to prepare their followers for the inevitability that we will get the virus mostly under control and they’ll have to chase new bugaboos to frighten the unwary. That’s good news for us – and the rest of the world- but bad news for them.

** there are graphs about cases, deaths, vaccinations for all locales – easy to find. .
.

I’ve found it tricky to find data that clearly shows the timing of public health measures against new case numbers, at least for Australia.

But the first graph in each of these links nicely show the timing of public health measures against daily case numbers for the first and larger second COVID waves in Australia:
First wave: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7449695/
Second wave: https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/ten-graphs-that-show-the-rise-and-fall-of-victoria-s-covid-19-second-wave-20201027-p5694b.html

The “stage 4” restrictions in the second link are “stay at home except for essential activities” (work, for food and supplies, exercise and caregiving). Where it was possible, work from home was strongly encouraged.

@Denise Walter

Amazing demonstration of an educated professional presenting as a hand-waving dogmatic, wishful thinker lending a bit of direct subject observational-study data to obsolete theories of causes of and therapeutic mitigations of hysteria:

You wrote:
“I can only surmise that anti-vaxxers and woo-meisters are starting to prepare their followers for the inevitability that we will get the virus mostly under control and they’ll have to chase new bugaboos to frighten the unwary.”

Incredibly, even a non-functioning cuckoo-clock shows the correct time, twice a day, in your case you saved the day by verifying an absolute truth, right out of the gate, that not even anti-vaxxers, woo-meisters, advertising experts, corporate raiders, bus drivers, shoeshine boys and generously funded research scientists with full disclosure and more all will agree with, when you stated, after all of that projection of yours, what came to you:

That “[You] can only surmise.”

After gaining speed and reaching a full gallop, perhaps inducing an episode of hypoxia triggering ecstatic subjective delusions of grandiose prophetic predictive capacity you proclaim your oracles (and, what better place to do so than on Orac[le]’s blog, magical thinking, it’s not just for the ignorati anymore!]:

“That’s good news for us – and the rest of the world- but bad news for them.”

No, it’s not good news for anybody, obviously.

Just as the obverse, which is actually occurring right now in an extremely large experimental group, with vast percentages of population of all ages, including pregnant women, participating as blinded experimental research subjects (among the injected subjects, only select professional members of the Ministry of Health and Pfizer have access to raw experimental parameters such as injection constituents and dosages, placebo percentage, who received what, etc.) and controls (those opting not to be injected, but their historical and real-time digital health records are available to the MOH and Pfizer):

Around 55 percent of the country’s 9.3 million people have been fully vaccinated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. The breakthrough cases, or infections in fully vaccinated people, account for around 40 to 50 percent of new COVID-19 cases, Prof. Chezy Levy, the Director-General of the Health Ministry:

” When asked how many of the new coronavirus patients have been vaccinated, Levy said that “We’re looking at a rate of 40 to 50 percent,” and said that the figure is concerning. ”
[24 June 2021, From:
haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-delta-variant-two-month-record-1.9935923]

” According to the HU research team, “the vaccines are noticeably less effective in preventing infection – about 60% to 80% [effective against the Delta variant] compared to 90% against the Alpha variant.” ”
[3 July 2021, From:
https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-to-see-1000-new-daily-covid-cases-in-two-weeks-hu-researchers-672780%5D

The above documented facts now occuring, would only be ‘good news’ to the severely personality and cognitively disordered, regardless of their relative objective intellectual capacity.

The wrath of the uneducated classes, derogated by you as “anti-vaxxers and woo-meisters”, is as easy to understand as imagining how a victim of MSBP would feel when the victim became aware of the fact of what a highly intelligent, educated professional like yourself, for example, was seemingly doing to them.

The distrust, fear and loathing of corrupt, fraudulent hucksters, documented being convicted repeatedly and consistently of making false claims and pushing potentially dangerous pharmaceutical products for financial and perhaps other gain, causing severe harm to health and well-being of the victimised population of the masses of trusting consumers, for example Pfizer among others, results from vast masses of bitter, damaged or killed innocents who ‘asked their doctor if it was right for them’ and followed the professional advice regarding the products.

In summary, lower rates of morbidity and death from any preventable cause is ‘good news’ to any unpersonality disorderd person.

Unfortunately, the reality hasn’t reached that positive outcome yet no matter how much magical thinking victims imagine, be they deluded by religions such as Scientology, Scientism or any other irrational amoral creed ultimately narcissistic.

@Quasimodo

If that was supposed to be helpful, I already know I’m full of shit. Nice try, rhough.\

You’re also a sock puppet for someone who was banned. Nice try. Goodbye. I’m just embarrassed that it took me so long to figure out.

You posted this link:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/997414/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_16.pdf
It does have a SIREN followup study. A citation:
“The SIREN study is a cohort of National Health Service healthcare workers, including 135 sites and 44,546 participants across the UK, 35,710* in England, who remain under active follow-up with PCR testing every 2 weeks for COVID-19 by PCR. This cohort had a high seropositivity on recruitment (30% before the second wave) and is now highly vaccinated (95%). The incidence of new infections and potential reinfections in SIREN is monitored and would be expected to rise if a new variant became highly prevalent and was able to escape predominantly vaccine-derived immunity. During the period of time that Delta became prevalent, there has been no increase in PCR-positive participants in the SIREN cohort overall (Figure 9) and reinfections remain at very low numbers in individuals previously either PCR positive or seropositive (Figure 9). Of the 20 participants with a new PCR positive since April 2021 in the SIREN cohort overall, 13 (65%) occurred 14 days or more following their second vaccine dose. Figure 12 shows the monthly frequency ofpotential reinfection events within SIREN”
Who is fear mongering ?

You’re also a sock puppet for someone who was banned. Nice try. Goodbye.

One might wonder if it will stay true to form and create another identity to complain that it would have gone away under its own steam if only it were asked nicely.

@ Denice Walter

You write: “I have a feeling that intelligence is only a small part of the equation. Research about personality / social variables’

Let me use an analogy. Someone can own a 22 revolver or a AK47 assault rifle. They can keep either locked in a safe or closet. Keep by bed stand to protect against intruder. Perhaps, go to shooting range. Or they can use it to commit a crime, e.g., rob someone, commit mass murder. The various type weapons represent variations in intelligence. How they are used variations in personality. However, even a vicious racist can only kill a small number of people with a 22 revolver; and even a nice person using an AK 47 during a home invasion can end up killing innocent people asleep in their beds across the street. Just as an aside, my late good childhood friends was a “gun nut”, went to shooting range, etc.; but for home defense he kept a pump action shotgun. Pumping alone could deter someone; but if needed, can’t miss, and won’t go across street into neighbors home.

Hitler was quite intelligent. I’ve read Mein Kampf and his insights into mass psychology were good; but he twisted history. Robert Kennedy Jr graduated from top law school, etc.; but he doesn’t open-mindedly look at all the evidence and lies.

I simply tried to explain that when I call someone stupid, not their born intelligence; but how they use it. Obviously, the personality plays a major role; but the more intelligent a person is, the more dangerous if they have a sick personality. Both play into the equation and other factors as well.

Back to my point…how do any of you know unequivocally that this time is any different? How do we know unequivocally that these new and relatively untested mRNA covid vaccines do not have long term side effects that make it NOT WORTH the benefit? And I’m still not convinced of the benefit versus the cost.

We’ve got a mortality rate of 0.018 deaths per case (per https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_deathsper100k). That means this disease has a 98.2% survival rate?

But consider that back in 2014 it was being reported that the CDC was using a very loose determination for influenza mortality rates (https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrence-solomon/death-by-influenza_b_4661442.html). I also find the following excerpt from the article interesting:

“The CDC’s decision to play up flu deaths dates back a decade, when it realized the public wasn’t following its advice on the flu vaccine. During the 2003 flu season “the manufacturers were telling us that they weren’t receiving a lot of orders for vaccine,”Dr. Glen Nowak, associate director for communications at CDC’s National Immunization Program, told National Public Radio. “It really did look like we needed to do something to encourage people to get a flu shot.”

Insert ‘covid’ for ‘flu’ in the above paragraph, and then ask yourself if any of it sounds at all familiar. Again, this was a 2014 reporting of things the CDC had been doing since 2003. I think this specific example also speaks loudly to my original point (i.e., the twisting of facts for possibly nefarious reasons).

The article concludes with the following:

“The CDC unabashedly decided to create a mass market for the flu vaccine by enlisting the media into panicking the public. An obedient and unquestioning media obliged by hyping the numbers, and 10 years later it is obliging still.”

Again, insert ‘covid’ for ‘flu’, and compare history with the present.

If I had presented any of these examples singularly as authoritative evidence of some conspiracy to mass vaccinate the population of the USA for nefarious purposes, I would expect to be called out for it. Isolated cases don’t necessarily proove anything authoritatively.

But when you have example after example of similar things that have happened in the past (i.e., radium/thalidomide/recalled previously approved FDA drugs), coupled with things that have happened in the RECENT past (HuffPo article) that almost to a tee imitates things that are still happening NOW (current “pandemic” and prescribed governmental/media response)…

among other things

…it kind’ve leads me to believe that maybe there is more going on than what meets the eye. So to speak.

Oh, you also wrote:
I simply tried to explain that when I call someone stupid, not their born intelligence; but how they use it.

If that’s your attempt at apologizing for denigrating the intelligence and/or character of people you don’t even know, then I accept!

hugs

Omg. I finally get it to go through and mistakenly post the second half from when I thought post length was preventing it from working last night.

facepalm

Now the first part won’t go through. Ugh.

Bleh. Trying a piece at a time…

Dr. Harrison @Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH,

You wrote:
Hitler was quite intelligent. I’ve read Mein Kampf and his insights into mass psychology were good; but he twisted history.

This, I think, is what worries so many of those you refer to as “anti-vaxxers”, or even the “vaccine hesitant”. The twisting of history, I mean. Just in this country alone we have numerous examples of history being twisted oftentimes for nefarious reasons usually associated with monetary gain.

Consider…

The Huffington Post has been described as “a wretched hive of scum and quackery”, and Lawrence Solomon has been blogged about here before.
You are using sources that are laughable.

Chris, it’s not that science advocates don’t realise that there can be massive problems. The problem is that science deniers, like anti-vaxxers, take those problems and fill the gaps with made up or unqualified b#llocks. If a trained and experienced expert gets it wrong, what are the chances that an untrained and inexperienced person without access to all the data or chain of events would get it right? Pretty much negligible in today’s world. We’ve already passed the age of the gentlemen and lady scientists working in their back rooms.

If your pilots all die on a transatlantic flight you can’t fill the gap with Fred from seat 126C and expect it to be a smooth landing. You need another pilot.

You think that 1.8 % is a low risk. Calculate how long you would survive if there would be 1.8 probabilty you dying during your trip to work.

This is an argument I’ve seen many times, suggesting hidden agendas, greed, past bad acts, etc imply the current unpleasantness is a con. People that push these ideas often quote news articles, court proceedings, scientific papers, etc to support their claims. I wonder why they trust these sources and not others. There does not appear to be any method behind why some sources are reliable and others not. Can’t trust the CDC or NIH but link to CDC reports or PubMed. Point out CoIs here but ignore or downplay CoIs there. Say there’s a cult of expertise but amplify that Robert Malone is the inventor of mRNA vaccines. Don’t trust Nature, it’s a CCP outlet but look at this article in Nature that supports my talking point.

Could it be it’s just one big confirmation bias party?

@ Chris Rasmus

You write: “here is a very interesting read on non-correlation between influenza mortality and increased vaccination rates”

Doshi has made it clear he is an antivaxxer; but let’s briefly look at the research he cites. Observational studies try; but often fail to equalize the two groups, e.g., vaccinated vs unvaccinated. We know that doctors often especially encourage seniors in poor health, and others with combordities, thus, the group receiving the vaccines is already at higher risk, so, not surprising they would have a higher mortality and morbidity. However, actual placebo-controlled double-blinded studies have been conducted, and the vaccinated had lower rates of mortality and morbidity. Given this, the higher rates of mortality in the observational studies would have been substantially higher if they had NOT been vaccinated. And there have been literally dozens of various types of observational studies since Doshi’s review and even before that found flu vaccine did reduce hospitalizations and/or death. Just one example:

Bridges CB et al. (2000 Oct 4). Effectiveness and Cost-Benefit of Influenza Vaccination of Healthy Working Adults: A Randomized Controlled Trial. Clinical Trial; 284(13): 1655-63.
[Note. though Doshi’s paper from 2008, doesn’t included Bridges study from 2000]

I should also point out that Doshi’s article doesn’t actually do a comprehensive review; but selects studies that found no correlation. There a number of studies that did find flu vaccine conferred protection, albeit more some seasons than others, obviously because the vaccine close to actual flu or not so close.

Here is a few studies and reviews:

“Among case patients, 205 of 368 (55%) were vaccinated, compared with 489 of 773 controls (63%). Case patients were more likely to be of nonwhite race and more likely to have ≥2 chronic health conditions, a recent hospitalization for a respiratory condition, an income <$35 000, and a lower functional status score (P < .01 for all).” (Havers, 2016)

“Inactivated influenza vaccines prevented influenza-associated ICU admissions, may have higher effectiveness in ICU than GW hospital settings, and appeared to reduce the risk of severe disease ” (Thompson, 2016).

“Fifteen meta-analyses have been published between 1995 and 2011 to evaluate the efficacy/effectiveness and harms of diverse influenza vaccines—seasonal, H5N1 and 2009 (H1N1) —in various age-classes (healthy children, adults or elderly). These meta-analyses have often adopted different analyses and study selection criteria. Because it is difficult to have a clear picture of vaccine benefits and harms examining single systematic reviews, we compiled the main findings and evaluated which could be the most reasonable explanations for some differences in findings (or their interpretation) across previously published meta-analyses. For each age group, we performed analyses that included all trials that had been included in at least one relevant meta-analysis, also exploring whether effect sizes changed over time. Although we identified several discrepancies among the meta-analyses on seasonal vaccines for children and elderly,
overall most seasonal influenza vaccines showed statistically significant efficacy/effectiveness, which was acceptable or high for laboratory-confirmed cases and of modest magnitude for clinically-confirmed cases. The available evidence on parenteral inactivated vaccines for children aged < 2 y remains scarce. Pre-pandemic “avian” H5N1 and pandemic 2009 (H1N1) vaccines can achieve satisfactory immunogenicity, but no meta-analysis has addressed H1N1 vaccination impact on clinical outcomes. Data on harms are overall reassuring.” (Manzoli, 2012)

“There have been 5,707 studies since 1967 on how well influenza vaccine protects against infection. . . The results of 31 studies show that the trivalent inactivated influenza vaccine is overall 59% effective in individuals 18-65 years of age. That means of every 100 individuals immunized, 41 will be susceptible to influenza. This number is far too low – it should be above 90% . . . In other words, it’s better than nothing, surely not a ringing endorsement. I suspect that the results of this study will lead to a decline in influenza immunization rates in the US. (Racaniello, 2011).

NOTE. as I’ve written several times, seatbelts only reduce deaths and serious injury by 50% and there have been several cases where the seatbelts ruptured bladders and bruised kidneys. Long before seatbelts were mandated, I used them and anyone riding in my car was required to as well. I have a dozen books and literally more than a 1,200 papers, mainly peer-reviewed articles on flu and its history. I have currently 125 papers under Flu-Vaccine Effectiveness, with separate folders for effectiveness/risk in pregnancy, children, etc.

One last point on Peter Doshi. He wrote an opinion piece in BMJ where he claimed that the protocols for Phase 3 of the Moderna and Pfizer mRNA vaccines only included looking at mild adverse events. I downloaded both and both specifically included looking at severe outcomes, e.g., hospitalizations, deaths. And even after both studies were published, a few months later in a BMJ rapid response Doshi reiterated his claim. Not only did I download and read the protocols; but was volunteer in the Moderna mRNA phase 3 study. We signed an agreement that included coming into lab for blood tests and physical exams every so often, filling out weekly questionnaire and receiving monthly phone interview. In addition, we signed permission to access our medical records and contact our primary care physicians. Why? Quite simply if those running study don’t hear from us and can’t contact us, they can find out if we had been hospitalized and/or died. I won’t bother giving reference to Doshi’s two writings, though I have them downloaded as pdf.

So, Rasmus, you, as others ignorant about how science works, i.e., not relying on one paper, even a review of other papers (because may be biased inclusion criteria), just keep making fools of yourselves. If you at all consider yourself open-minded, I suggest you go to Amazon.com and purchase Lauren Sompayrac’s “How the Immune System Works (6th Edition)”. An excellent overview of immunology, well-written, easy to read. If you don’t understand immunology, then you don’t understand how vaccines work. Or I could recommend several excellent undergraduate textbooks; but much more expensive and over 850 pages. Sompayrac’s is 150 pages with excellent illustrations.

References:

Havers F et al. (2016 Nov 15). Case-Control Study of Vaccine Effectiveness in Preventing Laboratory-Confirmed Influenza Hospitalizations in Older Adults, United States, 2010–2011. Clinical Infectious Diseases; 63(10): 1304-1311

Manzoli L et al. (2012 Jul). Effectiveness and harms of seasonal and pandemic influenza vaccines in children, adults and elderly – A critical review and re-analysis of 15 meta-analyses. Human Vaccines & Immunotherapeutics; 8(7): 851-62

Racaniello V (2011 Nov 3). How good is the influenza vaccine?. Available at: “http://www.virology.ws/2011/11/03/how-good-is-the-influenza-vaccine/ [Note. Racaniello is Professor of Virology]

Thompson (2018 Sep 18). Influenza vaccine effectiveness in preventing influenza associated intensive care admissions and attenuating severe disease among adults in New Zealand 2012–2015. Vaccine; 36(39): 5916-5925.

@ Chris Rasmus

You write: “How do we know unequivocally that these new and relatively untested mRNA covid vaccines do not have long term side effects that make it NOT WORTH the benefit? And I’m still not convinced of the benefit versus the cost. We’ve got a mortality rate of 0.018 deaths per case (per https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_deathsper100k). That means this disease has a 98.2% survival rate?”

I have already refuted both several times. And they are NOT untested, have gone through all FDA required trials, including peer-reviewed articles in New England Journal of Medicine, Dec 30 and 31. Read them. And not only U.S. CDC has several post-vaccinations programs, best Vaccine Safety Datalink; but most advanced nations have similar programs. The mRNA breaks down rapidly in cell’s cytoplasm. So, it only attaches for short time to cells ribosomes that produce a subpart of the s-spike protein, which, in turn is posted by cell proteins called MHCs on the cells surface so immune cells can recognize. Even if a few break loose, given only part of s-spike protein, they can’t attach to and enter other cells. In addition, immune cells, e.g., macrophages, gobble up anything foreign in blood and elsewhere and destroy. So, virtually impossible to have long term side effects; but given seven billion people in world, minuscule chance that a few may, though highly unlikely. As for deaths, I guess you don’t care about people developing long-term disabilities, e.g., reduced lung function, etc. And even young asymptomatic, ca 20% or higher, found with subclinical vascular damage, cardiovascular damage, that may lead to problems later on. And there is also good evidence that CDC stats are undercount of deaths from covid. Maybe CDC, once building on certain numbers is reluctant to admit it may have missed a number of cases. Keep in mind that Trump did everything possible to undermine FDA, CDC, and WHO while these stats were being collected.

If you are at all interested and I doubt you are, the University of Washington has a top rated center that looked at covid deaths and came up with figure of at least 905,000, 50% higher than current CDC stats.

University of Washington Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (2021 May 6). News Release: COVID-19 has caused 6.9 million deaths globally, more than double what official reports show. Both available at: http://www.healthdata.org

University of Washington Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (2021 May 13). Estimation of total mortality due to COVID-19.

But, even if CDC stats are correct. what a callous individual you are. The 600,000 deaths could be someones parent or grandparent, spouse, or even child. Life is short as it is and despite what you in your biased and immense ignorance choose to believe, the vaccines are very effective and the risk of serious side-effects minuscule. Maybe if you loose a loved family member or good friend then maybe, but I doubt it, you might too late learn how it feels.

@ Chris Rasmus

You write: “This, I think, is what worries so many of those you refer to as “anti-vaxxers”, or even the “vaccine hesitant”. The twisting of history, I mean. Just in this country alone we have numerous examples of history being twisted oftentimes for nefarious reasons usually associated with monetary gain.”

One of the things I love about the internet is one can find lots of things. I have actually found and downloaded newspaper articles from 17th and 18th Century on smallpox and other diseases. In addition, I understand the basics of immunology and molecular biology and am a trained epidemiologist. I don’t trust the pharmaceutical industry nor our government; but I don’t distrust either. I look at, for instance, a particular vaccine from different angles and collect papers from all over the world. My French isn’t great; but I have French/English dictionaries and I am fluent at Swedish. Norwegian and Danish are similar; but I have a Norwegian to Swedish and a Danish to Swedish dictionary. In any case, first I understand the history of vaccine-preventable diseases; second, I understand how vaccines are manufactured and how they work; and third, I follow the post-vaccination stats from not only the CDC; but UK, Sweden, etc.

And, yep, companies that manufacture vaccines do make a profit; but companies make profits on insulin, albuterol for asthma, and many other products that confer major benefits to those who use them. How much profit is made on even beneficial products in U.S. can be questioned as our government has the legal authority to intervene (I have law review articles); but don’t. But that is a separate issue. Making a profit doesn’t say if a product is beneficial, harmful, or degrees in-between. It is really STUPID that anti-vaxxers rail about industry profits from vaccines. If profits are the main criteria, then antivaxxers should convince type 1 diabetics to forgo insulin, etc. In actuality, the total profits made in a year from ALL vaccines is about 2% of total profits by industry. They make more on statins alone. A few companies make a larger percentage of their profits from vaccines. However, the regulations in U.S. and elsewhere for vaccine approval are much much higher than any other pharmaceutical and the post-vaccination surveillance programs much better. One other thing, only with vaccines does FDA have power to immediately stop sales, which they did for first rotavirus vaccine because of a few cases of intussusception. Personally, I think stopping vaccine was a mistake because much higher number of cases of intussusception caused by actual virus. In fact, annually, 50,000 hospitalizations and around 50 deaths from rotavirus, so it took six years to approve next vaccine, thus 300 deaths and 300,000 hospitalizations.

On the other hand, drugs that have clearly been indicated in serious adverse events and even deaths have taken FDA 10 years or more to get off market.

Since you and other antivaxxers are so dense, I repeat, everything is sold for a profit. If you used profit, monetary gain, to support your antivax position, it is hypocritical and just plain stupid/dishonest not to apply it to everything else.

Excellent post. I’d add that the profit motive should be turned around. Those antivax conferences don’t come for free. Why would the likes of Del Bigtree be financed to spread misinformation? Speculation and JAQing off cuts both ways, what’s good for the goose …

@ Chris Rasmus

So, have you modified your stance on the current mRNA vaccine and/or vaccines in general?
One last point on Peter Doshi:

“Doshi also once signed a petition “questioning” whether HIV causes AIDS. When called out on it by Steve Salzberg, he responded disingenuously:

On the question of signing the HIV/AIDS petition, Doshi responded that “Seeing how my name was published and people have misconstrued this as some kind of endorsement, I have written the list owner and asked for my name to be removed.” He declined to state directly that he agrees that the HIV virus causes AIDS—though I gave him ample opportunity.
Let me remind you of what Peter Doshi signed and then only asked for his signature to be removed after being publicly called out. It’s a petition “questioning” the hypothesis that HIV causers AIDS. The Wayback Machine shows his name in the list of signatories. It even includes this gem when you scroll over certain text:

You can find the complete statement at: Orac (2021 Jan 15). Why is Peter Doshi still an editor at The BMJ? Available at: https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/01/15/why-is-peter-doshi-still-an-editor-at-the-bmj/

In somewhat off topic news, our old friends Brian Hooker and Neil Miller have published another garbage study showing completely unvaccinated children are much healthier than vaccinated children having fewer allergies, less autism, fewer gastrointestinal problems, less ADD, less asthma, etc.

The data come from an online survey of parents with children at three pediatric practices. Any guesses about who’s? Hooker and Miller are really coy about where these practices might be located. The fact that they have only 136 subjects with vaccines up to date compared with 945 subjects completely unvaccinated should be a clue.

Study is being widely trumpeted in the usual places.

On a tangential note, televangelist and convicted fraudster Jim Bakker just got a hell of a smack.
He must pay $156,000 in restitution to people who bought his “Silver Solution”,a “cure” that contains colloidal silver. He is also banned from advertising it on his show.

@Julian Frost

Bakker was ordered to pay $156,000 because he made medical claims regarding colloidal silver’s long historically empirically proven record of in vivo antiviral properties to promote sales of a colloidal silver product. Ironically, probably among the most legitimate business attempts Bakker is ever known to have attempted, assuming of course that the product itself was untainted.

On a tangential note, pharmaceutical manufacturer and repeatedly convicted fraudster Pfizer got a hell of a smack in 2009.

Pfizer, in the Largest Health Care Fraud Settlement in History, Pfizer must Pay $2.3 Billion for Fraudulent Marketing to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products. Pfizer will also enter into an expansive corporate integrity agreement with the Office of Inspector General of the Department of Health and Human Services.

Source:
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-announces-largest-health-care-fraud-settlement-its-history

For the interested reader’s further study, to find out more about this trusty company that racked up $4,747,652,947 worth of violations including violating the False Claims Act and Related (that was $41,047,101 in 2019), from 2000-2019:
https://violationtracker.goodjobsfirst.org/prog.php?parent=pfizer

Cool and happy to hear Pfizer has been penalized. This is US government justice doing what we the people expect when rules are broken, lives jeopardized, and such lying is made known. Let the rules be applied to all and measured by our continuing expectation of health for society.

As provax, I want FDA to be more rigorous in testing all pills, fluids, and other advertised health enhancements with government oversight strengthened so that the fraud and grift is eventually eliminated. It will be good for the health and economy of the country.

The evidence is still strong that vaccines work. That is where I start the conversation.

So, Jim Bakker is turning people into Smurfs and you figure an apropos pivot is a 12-year-old settlement that has been trotted out here pretty much since day 1? At least Marsha McClelland was timely. You are merely a sad sack. In the dictionary sense, of course; it’s possible to do with a certain pathetic flair, but you’ve only got half of that item down.

@1K Liinks

I’m glad you appreciate when criminals get caught and convicted and made to pay.

I personally don’t see where I was alluding in any way shape or form to vaccines or anything about them.

Someone wanted to thrash on that turd Bakker for violating a regulation by selling a product, there is a much much bigger turd of a criminal corporate entity which surprisingly actually has been thrashed criminally and civilly a bit here and there, and disgustingly the company is a big pharmaceutical company as opposed to some pervy televangelist (ie, they should know better, because medical science).

In any case, your personal politics don’t interest me.

@the “tremendous douche suffering from Dunning-Kruger.” [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Respectful_Insolence]

Sorry, I don’t play chess with a pigeons or morons, Narad, but since you can’t even clean up your own guano, for a reason commonly due to an mdma problem*, I’ll indulge you with some reading material about my earlier statement, “colloidal silver’s long historically empirically proven record of in vivo antiviral properties” (even though Bakker really is a turd, verified and confirmed by decades of peer-review), and don’t worry, this is not a review of best practices on using your sterling silver butt plug to make some home made colloidal silver, even though you’d probably like one of those better, especially with some electrodes attached:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27015373/

*your hyponatremia problem is commonly associated with MDMA which increases the risk of severe and even fatal cases of hyponatremia. but remember though, correlation may not equal causation:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/hyponatremia/symptoms-causes/syc-20373711

“Pfizer must Pay $2.3 Billion for Fraudulent Marketing to resolve criminal and civil liability arising from the illegal promotion of certain pharmaceutical products.” Fraudulent marketing? Illegal promotion?

And you blow up Jim Bakker for peddling colloidal silver. Acting like he was there directly pouring the colloidal silver to the masses. SMH. Yes, Jim Bakker is a fraud and so is Albert Bourla, veterinarian and CEO of Pfizer.

Boosters…likely a need for a third dose at 6 months..then annual jabs well ya’ know, those variants! CHA-CHING!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i9Tbcsy4Vc

Sorry, I don’t play chess with a pigeons or morons

Only your betters, then?

I’ll indulge you with some reading material about my earlier statement, “colloidal silver’s long historically empirically proven record of in vivo antiviral properties”

Your inability to spell “vitro” is not my problem. You’re never going to get antimicrobial serum concentrations by swilling the stuff. Argyria, on the other hand, is easy.

your hyponatremia problem is commonly associated with MDMA which increases the risk of severe and even fatal cases of hyponatremia

Fun fact: I know the fellow who wrote the Usenet MDMA FAQ. He was in Harriet de Wit’s lab back in the day, and I’m counting at least half a dozen papers on the subject indexed by G—le Scholar. You don’t know f*ck about MDMA, and I’ve never taken it (I sorely doubt that anyone could get to 121 mmol/L during a rave in any event), so you can put your brain back in your pants.

“Only your betters, then?”

Well. If that’s not the most bestest burn i’ve seen in a while for implied “mostly Potzer”; It could have been like with Mantega, Kingsley, and Max Pomeranc. Too bad he’s William H. Macy.

I’ve had hyponatremia. It went with a panic attack as I had drunk some homade wine and thought I’d been poisoned** (new people). I knew I was in trouble starring out flying across the truss-bridge. Palpatations, very heavy sweat. Got home, lady across the street was nurse. I calmed down. Later went back to scarry people, one girl was nurse, she said hyponatremia Just based on my description without mentioning the other nurse. Nooo more problem with the free homade wine.

The easiest way for me to get it these days would be to find myself without my salt shaker out in the heat with my sand in the toes for too long. And too much water because since my heat stroke in Arizona in ’93 my body never learned how wetter is not better in humid when I came back. Drinking 64 oz/hr is not good for long without salt, sodium bicarbonate, alcohol, and starch.

**The thing is I’ve always been used to a high level of salt. Crap. My shirts were all crusty when they dried out. It was hot, it was hard, I took precaution and we stopped off at Sonic for some fries and salt packs for me going home (I’d long sucked out the beef bullion).

@ Deacon Frollo

regarding colloidal silver’s long historically empirically proven record of in vivo antiviral properties

I think you meant in vitro.
Or maybe as topical application, e.g. applied on the skin.
In vivo, we cannot rise colloidal silver concentration high enough to do some good.

Oh, and I’m using colloidal silver, too. To color proteins separated by SDS-PAGE. Silver and proteins bind together and form easily spotted dots on the gel. Very sensitive, better than copper ions (a.k.a. Coomassie blue stain). Needs a reducing agent to remove the silver from the protein, through.

It struck me one day, if that could happen in vitro, in my acrylamide gels, then it’s very likely going to happen in vivo.

I’m flabbergasted how people complain about “chemicals” in vaccines, but would pay without blinking to drink a high-concentration potion of a real chemical.

@Athaic AKA “The Donkey Herder”, known far and wide in pseudoskeptic circles for his collection and display of wild assumption:

“It struck me one day, if that could happen in vitro, in my acrylamide gels, then it’s very likely going to happen in vivo.”

Great hypothesis, get funded and do a study, and prove it, Keep the following in mind, though, to at least make your study useful.

Here’s a decent in vivo study, search for more yourself if are considering experimenting on yourself, or interested in at least not appearing to be equally or more dogmatic than your opponents. Make sure to use quotes around “in vivo” when searching or you might only find product promotional ‘studies’, half-assed wastes of funding, and such nonsense,
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31398832/

Also, before beginning, make sure to study the following so you can test to try to determine optimal distribution and clearance rates using well-defined methodologies for that purpose, or at least be a bit more informed and possibly reduce making strange statements and irrelevant analogies. Despite the title, the paper devotes much space to clearance:
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/pdf/10.1289/ehp.01109s4547

So it is actually mouse studies, A bit forward, though virus was RSV and dose rather high. Some human trials would be useful.
Argyria is explaned here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argyria
Silver is a disinfectant, yes. Eating it may harm you.

@Narad

Thanks for the almost amusing demonstration, using yourself as the specimen under study, showing some of the modes of operation of a typical “tremendous douche suffering from Dunning-Kruger.” [https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Respectful_Insolence], and perhaps effects from the cause or treatments of his ailments:

Narad opens with this stunner, and let’s us know:

“Fun fact: I know the fellow who wrote the Usenet MDMA FAQ.”

Narad needs to tell us this, it’s very important for him to establish the fact that the fellow compiled a list of questions and answers about MDMA is of course vitally connected to the historical trivia that like many others, according to Narad regarding the same fellow:

“He was in Harriet de Wit’s lab back in the day,”

Now that we’ve established the alleged whereabouts of that fellow who Narad claims did the MDMA FAQ we can now confidently proceed to take Narad’s word for it that he can accurately count up to at least six since he now regales us with the following self-referenced non peer-reviewed anecdotal claim:

” and I’m counting at least half a dozen papers on the subject indexed by G—le Scholar.”

And because Narad can conclusively count at least up to six, according to his own self-referencing anecdotal claim, of course irrefutably supported by the fact that those at least six papers are indexed by G Scholar, therefore, resoundingly, according to Narad:

” You don’t know f*ck about MDMA, ”

Which, just so no one gets the wrong impression, and so as not to potentially irrevocably violate his own US 5th Amendment rights and others, Narad now affirms regarding himself:

“and I’ve never taken it ”

But, he personally gets off the flight of ideas he’s on, looks around and has a ‘eureka!’ moment:

“(I sorely doubt that anyone could get to 121 mmol/L during a rave in any event),”

And sure, Narad, it’s obvious you couldn’t and it sure wasn’t for a lack of trying, and that’s ok, but, full disclosure, your attempt to do so has been noted at the time and has since grown to become almost as legendary as the real-life “Kid Charlemagne”.

The riveting fable ends, as they all do.

Narad, feeling a breeze down south that he shouldn’t, checks to see if he forgot to go to the toilet again and had accident while he composed his fable, and, seeing that shred of beaten manhood hanging forlornly from his unzipped fly, tells himself out loud:

” so you can put your brain back in your pants.”

Get well soon, Narad, remember, laughter is the best medicine, even if it’s only a placebo effect, it’s more fun than bitterness.

The journal Vaccines has issued an “expression of concern” about a paper it published last week, which claims that for every three lives saved by Covid-19 vaccination there are two deaths caused by the vaccine.

The lead author of “The Safety Of Covid-19 Vaccinations – We Should Rethink The Policy”, Harald Walach, is quite the piece of work. His Wikipedia bio identifies him as a researcher in complementary and alternative medicine whose efforts have gotten funding from a corporation that makes and distributes homeopathic products. “Together with theoretical physicists Hartmann Römer and Harald Atmanspacher, Walach has developed a model of generalised entanglement that attempts to explain anomalous phenomena, such as certain non-specific therapy effects and parapsychological phenomena.”

Sounds quantum. Don’t you just love Science?

Two members of the Vaccines editorial board have already resigned over publication of the paper.

http://retractionwatch.com/2021/06/29/paper-claiming-two-deaths-from-covid-19-vaccination-for-every-three-prevented-cases-earns-expression-of-concern/?fbclid=IwAR3rH467ZBzl4amhY3QiyNOda6nqjFNddv98_TaRqulOl8Ekqw3KeSiuBt8

Two members of the Vaccines editorial board have already resigned over publication of the paper.

There’s a parody of “YMCA” substituting MDPI here, but having just been discharged from five days in ICU and one on the neuro ward (hyponatremia), I have to focus my efforts on very basic housekeeping. My legs haven’t recovered.

@ Narad writes, “having just been discharged from five days in ICU and one on the neuro ward (hyponatremia).” Oh my, sounds scary. I was wondering about your absence as well as Tim’s. You’ve piqued my curiousity. Were you hospitalized due to a Covid infection or a Covid vaccine reaction? Dehydration? Diarrhea? What’s going on with your legs? Any tales from a Florida hospital you wanna share?

I was wondering about your absence as well as Tim’s.

Mitzi has rebranded as “carbonaceous.” As for the rest, none of the above; my legs are a bit sore, but that’s not too surprising given that I was flat on my back for the better part of a week.

Respectfully, a lot of good people are merely questioning the necessity or benefit of the vaccine for young healthy people especially those who already had the infection.

Data suggests natural immunity in fact exists and appears to be as effective as vaccination.

https://doi.org/10.1038/s41586-021-03647

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210608/No-point-vaccinating-those-whoe28099ve-had-COVID-19-Findings-of-Cleveland-Clinic-study.aspx

Re: delta variant etc – I haven’t seen a major study that specifically compares vaccine vs prior recovery for specific variants. Can anyone please cite one?

Re: long-term adverse effects. Why is Ocas and others on here so adamantly and dogmatically certain that there are no significant long term effects, or that the benefits always outweigh risks? Why? Can we at least qualify these claims – we don’t actually know of those since there are no long term studies as yet.

For example, the claim that for sure mRNA cannot cause any change to DNA – here is a study that indicates inert Line-1 or Hiv reverse transcriptase may be activated and in fact chimeric DNA has been detected in cultured cells

https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.12.12.422516

Should this type of information at least be considered in giving blanket vaccine recommendations to say, Hiv patients?

Is there any drug or therapy on earth that is safe, effective and recommended for EVERYONE? So why is this vaccine being so aggressively touted as such?

What is wrong with the rigorous, cautious approach to new agents, that has been used successfully throughout medical history?

I get VAERS doesn’t establish causation. But do we just ignore the extraordinary amount of raw data it clearly presents + our own judgment and defer only to official CDC interpretation?

Sure, it’s very difficult to listen to those you consider enemies, crackpots, anti-vaxxer, science deniers, trumpists, whatever. But a mature person will realize, reality is not neat and clean-cut like that…

In the end, time will tell.

“we don’t actually know of those since there are no long term studies as yet.”

Precisely. I, for one, would not be much shocked if everyone’s arms fall off in a couple years. Also, land sharks are thawing out of the glaciers. I bet they tried this whole mRNA thing millions of years ago and it went south. How else does one explain land sharks?

Respectfully, a lot of good people are merely questioning the necessity or benefit of the vaccine for young healthy people especially those who already had the infection.

I believe the charitable vernacular for this is “busybodies.”

“For example, the claim that for sure mRNA cannot cause any change to DNA – here is a study that indicates inert Line-1 or Hiv reverse transcriptase may be activated and in fact chimeric DNA has been detected in cultured cells”

See TWiV 696 for a demolition of that paper.

Data suggests that letting children hit themselves in the heads with a sledgehammer is more effective in preventing future hammer injuries than merely keeping them away from hammers. Why is it that parents are constantly being advised to take the untested action of removing hammers from their children’s rooms instead of relying on natural learning?

“Data suggests natural immunity in fact exists and appears to be as effective as vaccination.”

Did it occur to you at any point in your question-asking journey that in order to attain “natural immunity”, one must first contract Covid-19 and risk death or serious, potentially long-term injury?

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