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The violent rhetoric of the antivaccine movement, antimask COVID-19 update

I’ve long written about the violent rhetoric of the antivaccine movement. In the age of COVID-19, it’s gotten much worse, and, increasingly, there has been actual violence. Someone’s going be killed, I fear.

Whenever anyone expresses surprise or dismay at the increasingly unhinged violent rhetoric coming from the antivaccine and antimask movement in the era of COVID-19, I like to point out that I noticed this trend among antivaxxers and first wrote about it in 2015 in the context of antivax resistance to SB 277, the California law passed that year that eliminated nonmedical “personal belief” exemptions to school vaccine mandates. However, perusing my blog last night, I noticed that the violent rhetoric goes back long before that. Indeed, my first ban on this blog occurred in 2006 due to a commenter advocating taking an autism advocate out and horsewhipping her. Then, in 2011, I noted a man named Mark Sircus, who is an acupuncturist and traditional Chinese medicine practitioner as well as a practitioner of “pastoral medicine,” advocating hanging scientists at the CDC over vaccines in a post entitled String the Bastards Up. Here’s a taste:

In general I am against the death penalty as I am against killing of any kind. Though the Bible sanctions death and killing, it is clearly against murder and the taking of innocent life. We could argue all day about what some people clearly seem to deserve and we could argue about the legitimacy of many things from the Old Testament or anything else written that the elites of the world have had their dirty fingers in.

For all those who are for the death penalty, my message will be clear. I am calling for the conviction and the worst possible punishment under the law for certain people in government who are in the medical field. There seems to be no limit to what our present society will accept. We are letting the bankers and the shysters on Wall Street destroy western civilization, allowing them the fattest paychecks on earth as a reward. And we are letting doctors in white coats inject poisonous heavy metals into babies and paying them well for it.

I also noted that one of the commenters said:

I love the fact you are trying to hold these people who have done indescribable harm accountable. But, one of the reasons they get away with this, is people are reluctant to name names. Do name them. Put their names on the Internet, in forums, on websites for all to see. If you know who they are, name them. Let all the world see their crimes. They escape because they can remain anonymous. Their colleagues, their families, their professional connections, should all know what they do. Let them be named!!!

Does this sound familiar? Remember, this was from nearly ten years ago. It’s also an example of why antivaxxers are so obsessed with doxxing any provaccine pro-science blogger or social media influencer who posts under a pseudonym. As I’ve described many times, it’s their go-to first move whenever a pseudonymous influencer scores a hit on their misinformation.

Since 2015, I’ve periodically updated this series, expressing relief (and, to be honest, surprise) that there hasn’t (yet) been any violence that’s resulted in death or serious injury, although antivaxxers have advocated attacks on provaccine journalists and one antivaxxer did accost and shove California State Senator. Richard Pan, the pediatrician turned politician responsible for SB 277. More recently, Mike Adams was forced to walk back his violent rhetoric about executing doctors and public health officials who have responsible for COVID-19 vaccination. More recently, antivaxxers harassed breast cancer patients and the health care professionals treating them at a cancer clinic in Los Angeles, and fights broke out between the antivaxxers and provaxxers who had shown up to counterprotest. More recently still—just a week ago, in fact—one person was stabbed and a reporter assaulted as COVID-19 antivaxxers and counterdemonstrators fought in front of LA City Hall:

A crowd of several hundred people, many holding American flags and signs calling for “medical freedom,” had descended on City Hall around 2 p.m. for the planned rally. A few dozen counterprotesters had amassed on 1st Street near the former offices of the L.A. Times before the clash.

A fight erupted on the corner of 1st and Spring streets shortly after 2:30 p.m., as counterprotesters in all black and anti-vaccine demonstrators draped in American flag garb and Trump memorabilia traded punches and threw things at one another. It was not immediately clear how the fight started, though each side quickly blamed the other.

One person, who the anti-mask protesters claim was part of their rally, could be seen collapsed in the intersection, bleeding. Police on the scene said the person had been stabbed, and paramedics arrived to take him to a hospital.

In the melee, counterprotesters could be seen spraying mace while members of the anti-vaccine rally screamed death threats. One older man screamed, “unmask them all,” and clawed at a woman’s face.

Here’s a shot of an antivaxxer attacking journalist Tina Desiree Berg:

Violent antivaxxer attacks journalist
An antivaxxer attacks journalist Tina Desiree Berg. This antivaxxer should be named and shamed.

Elsewhere in the protest, another reporter was attacked:

I note that this is not the first time that the man in the photo, identified by some as Benjamin Patino, has become violent and attacked a journalist:

Unsurprisingly, he is a Donald Trump supporter, which is yet another example illustrating how the confluence and alliance of the antimask/antivaccine movement with far right wing activists has ratcheted up not only the violent rhetoric but the violence. Indeed, I noted that there was ample evidence at the protest outside of the cancer clinic that antivaxxers were aligning themselves with fascists (and vice-versa). But, wait! you ask, What about the person who was stabbed, who appears to have been an antivaccine protester? To be honest, I don’t know. The man was released from the hospital the day after the protest, and his identity was not revealed; so it is impossible to know which side he was on.

Then, just yesterday it was reported in The Washington Post that an antivaxxer had shown up at a Walmart and warned pharmacists that administration of COVID-19 vaccines was a violation of the Nuremberg Code and could result in their execution:

An Alabama-based anti-vaxxer who has gained a following online — where he spreads false information about the coronavirus pandemic, Key was on a mission to give the pharmacists inoculating shoppers a warning.

“What they’re doing is crimes against humanity,” he said in a live stream on Facebook. “And if they do not stand down immediately, then they could be executed. They can be hung in the state.”

And:

Wearing a polo with “Vaccine Police” written across the left side of his chest, Key ran through the game plan with the group. During a prayer in the parking lot, Key said he hoped to “put the fear of God in these pharmacists.”

The live stream shows Key walking past the produce section and then along the grocery aisles. As he made his way to the pharmacy counter, workers there can be seen shutting down the counter and locking the door.

I wonder why. Certainly if I saw a deranged man wandering through my store making threats, I’d try to protect myself too, and that’s what Christopher Key did:

Key went on to claim that the pharmacists were violating the Nuremberg Code, a set of medical ethics rules established after World War II that led to the prosecution and execution of several Nazi doctors who carried out medical experiments on victims in concentration camps. Key’s comparisons are inaccurate, experts say, because the coronavirus vaccine is not experimental.

“If you allow one more shot in one more person’s body, you yourself will be executed in violation of the Nuremberg Code,” he said as he pointed to a Walmart employee standing nearby. “We don’t want that to happen to any of you guys at all. We love you guys. We want to keep you safe.”

How nice of Mr. Key. He doesn’t want to kill pharmacists, but thinks that they should be executed if they keep administering vaccines.

Here’s the Facebook Live video, which, bizarrely enough, is still up at Facebook. It’s bonkers:

Then Key got all disingenuous:

About 10 minutes after confronting the Walmart employee, who mostly remained silent, Key switched his tune. He was actually there to get the vaccine, he said.

“Why can’t I get my vaccine? I’m here to get my vaccine,” he said.

After about 20 minutes loitering outside the pharmacy, Key and his posse left the store and encountered a police officer waiting outside.

“She just refused me my vaccine,” he said to the officer, referring to the female employee. “What if I die tonight and I get covid because I didn’t get my vaccine?”

Spare me. Let’s move on.

On Tuesday, the violent rhetoric of the antivaccine/antimask movement took an even more disturbing turn in Maine:

The story:

Several GOP lawmakers gathered with anti-vaccine activists at the Augusta state capitol building on Tuesday to protest Gov. Janet Mills’ recently announced COVID-19 vaccine mandate for healthcare workers. 

Healthcare providers already require their workers to be vaccinated against measles, Hepatitis B and other infectious diseases. Mills’ mandate will add the COVID vaccine to that list starting October 1.

Conservative lawmakers including Reps. Heidi Sampson (R-Alfred), Tracy Quint (R-Hodgdon), Laurel Libby (R-Auburn), Assistant House Republican Leader Joel Stetkis (R-Canaan) and Republican Sen. Lisa Kiem (Oxford) spoke at the event. In their remarks, they validated false and dangerous claims about vaccines, at times framing the public health initiative as a government experiment in violation of individual liberties. Rep. Chris Johansen (R-Monticello) was also present at the rally after losing his wife to COVID on August 10.

Unfortunately, this is now typical of Republicans. I warned in 2018 that the GOP was fast becoming the party of antivaxxers, and by 2019, nearly a year before COVID-19 first shut down the country, it was quite clear that the antivaccine movement had found a political home in the Republican Party. Basically, in pandering to their base, large swaths of which antivaxxers had successfully enticed to their cause by framing school vaccine mandates as an issue of government overreach and “parental rights,” Republican politicians locked themselves into antivaccine, antimask positions as expressions of support for “freedom.” Examples before the pandemic include the Ohio statehouse, which was rife with antivaxxers (and. still is), Oregon Republicans walking out and refusing to work until a provaccine bill was shelved, and, in my neck of the woods, Republicans in my district holding an antivaccine roundtable falsely billed as a “vaccine choice” summit. Worse, after COVID-19 hit, antivaxxers and COVID-19 antimaskers/minimizers/deniers increasingly allied themselves because both groups are profoundly anti-public health, more specifically against any public health intervention that requires collective action or government mandates of any kind.

Here’s what’s disturbing, though, came through in speeches by state representatives Laura Libby and Heidi Sampson, both—you guessed it!—Republicans:

Libby, who was among those that led the failed 2020 people’s veto campaign to reinstate philosophical exemptions to childhood vaccination, egged on the crowd Tuesday.

“What are you prepared to do to protect your kids and the generations to come?” Libby said. “Will we have the right to make our own medical decisions, or will the government? The stakes have never been higher. And to be clear: this is war.”

“When we win this war you can tell your kids and grandkids you fought for them,” Libby continued. “We must stand together. It will take every one of us.”

During her speech, Sampson claimed Mills’ mandate was a government ploy to illegally test “experimental” COVID vaccines on unwitting citizens. She described Mills as the “reincarnation” of Nazi doctor Josef Mengele, who performed deadly medical experiments on Jewish people in concentration camps during the Holocaust.

“Do I need to remind you of the late 1930s and into the 40s in Germany. And the experiments with Josef Mengele,” Sampson said. “What was it? A shot. And these were crimes against humanity. And what came out of that? The Nuremberg Code. The Nuremberg Trial. Informed consent is at the top and violating that is punishable by death.”

Does any of this sound familiar? Comparing public health officials to Nazis and vaccine mandates to the Holocaust is nothing new for antivaxxers, and since COVID-19 hit antivaxxers have cranked such comparisons up to 11.

COVID Vaccine Holocaust
This is nothing new. Antivaxxers have been spreading such memes for years.
COVIDcaust
I might agree with this analogy if it meant that it was COVID-19 itself causing a Holocaust, but I know that antivaxxers mean vaccines and other public health interventions to slow the spread of coronavirus.

I’ve referred to how antivaxxers love to cite the Nuremberg Code, the ethical framework that came out of the judgment from the Nuremberg Doctors’ Trial against Nazi doctors who had performed horrific medical experiments during the war. It is a strategy that is both a Godwin in that it paints those who support vaccine mandates as being every bit as fascistic and evil as Nazi doctors and ignores the much more recent ethical statements that govern current human subjects research, the Belmont Report and the Declaration of Helsinki. A not-so-subtle inference behind antivaxxers’ references to the Nuremberg Code is that provaccine doctors should suffer the same fate as the doctors convicted during the Nuremberg Trials, imprisonment or even execution. Of course, if you really view vaccine mandates as being akin to what the Nazis did to Jews and others whom they considered enemies of the volk, then violence is justified to stop it. That is the warped thinking of antivaxxers that leads to images like this:

Mike Adam's violent rhetoric
Mike Adams calls for the execution of scientists for “experimenting” on children.

It’s one thing when random antivaxxers on social media, antivaccine protesters who are vile enough to harass cancer patients, or utter cranks like Mike Adams spout violent rhetoric or become violent themselves or fools like Del Bigtree ask if it’s “time for guns,” compare themselves to the Founding Fathers, and declare themselves as willing to die for the antivaccine cause. It’s quite another when actual legislators and government officials start dipping their toes into the pool of the same violent rhetoric. Bigtree and his fellow antivaxxers aren’t taken seriously by most reasonable people. Actual state legislators can’t be ignored because they are elected officials.

And it’s more than just lowly state representatives, too:

Of course, Congresswoman or not, you have to be really bad to have someone like Ben Shapiro call you out for being bonkers (even if he couldn’t resist a false analogy to attack his favorite leftists), leading Rep. Taylor Greene to deny that’s what she meant:

Sorry to inform the Representative, but the discrimination and persecution of the Jews in the early years of the Nazi regime were the early stages of the Holocaust. Why? Because the systematic discrimination and persecution set the stage for the systematic targeted deportations, killings, and ultimately genocide that started several years later. The genocide would not have been possible without the initial discrimination, which dehumanized Jews in the eyes of Germans.

I’ll conclude, as I have in most of the posts in this series, expressing relief and amazement that the violent rhetoric of the antivaccine movement hasn’t led to more violence. Unfortunately, my relief and amazement appear to be threatened, as the violent rhetoric is becoming more unhinged, and there is now actual violence. More than ever, I fear what could be coming. Someone’s going to die violently at the hands of antivaxxers, and I fear it will be sooner, rather than later.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

222 replies on “The violent rhetoric of the antivaccine movement, antimask COVID-19 update”

Orac includes Mike Adams’ post from May:
I have been regularly listening to his daily broadcasts ( for as long as I can tolerate it/ 20 minutes?) – he goes on for an hour or so about how deadly vaccines are, how the government/ corporations/ globalists/ aliens/ Satan are preparing mass executions by spike protein . His labyrinthine conspiracy theories include the end-of-days, mass murder, China, food shortages and continue each day, growing exponentially. I can’t understand how his followers do not automatically dismiss him and his product line summarily after hearing this swill. But they listen and buy because his business is expanding according to him. -btw- his recent sponsors are a satellite phone system and a precious metals seller AFTER he tells his audience that the grid/ cell phones will be taken down and the monetary system will crash soon. No COI.
I hope that someone other than me will listen to his BS and inform sceptics in more detail: I have limits, believe it or not.

I actually considered doing a quick post about this gem by Adams:

https://www.naturalnews.com/2021-08-19-australia-runs-mass-child-sacrifice-luciferian-vaccine-ritual-targeting-24000-children-warning-graphic.html

Basically, because Australia is holding a mass vaccination clinic for children at Qudos Bank Arena, a stadium where Slipknot and “many satanic rock bands” have performed, Adams claims that the mass vaccination event is in reality a “child sacrifice Luciferian vaccine ritual.” He even finds a years old video in which one of the band members wears a headdress with spikes on it and characterizes it as obviously representing the spike protein several years before the pandemic hit. Seriously, if you want a good laugh, read the article. How can he keep a straight face while saying such things?

Now, I’m not a fan of Slipknot and have never really liked the band at all (nu metal never was my thing), but over the years dating back to the 1970s I have loved me some “Satanic” bands, including Alice Cooper, Black Sabbath, Kiss, 1990s-era Marilyn Manson, Slayer, Cradle of Filth, and, more recently, Ghost (a band that you really should check out). So I was laughing my ass off reading Mike Adams’ nonsense, which reminded me of certain fundamentalist TV preachers who used to rail against rock and roll as evil and satanic on cable TV back in the 1980s.

I think they call themselves Ghost BC now for some reason. Talented guys.

I don’t know. On Apple Music, the band is still called just Ghost, and the band’s website still uses the name Ghost:

https://ghost-official.com

Entertaining band, though, particularly the way the members all stay anonymous (or at least used to until they were unmasked) other than their stage names and personae, particularly the demonic anti-pope, Papa Emeritus.

The funny thing is that these broadcasts seem to get loopier as they continue: the first 15-20 minutes is just loony BUT as he goes on… perhaps he thinks that his more normal followers (into alt med and rightie politics0 with get the earlier part and the real diehards/ true believers/ end times fans will hang on to the bitter end.
My question: he’s there to sell but can some of these fans be trusted with a credit card?

Here’s a report about the Qudos Bank Arena vaccination centre from an actual news source:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-09/monday-am-briefing/100360092

The Qudos Bank Arena started its life as the Sydney Super Dome, and was the venue for basketball and some of the gymnastics events at the Sydney 2000 Olympic Games.

It’s certainly been the venue for some fairly heavy-duty band performances, like Kiss, Iron Maiden & Black Sabbath, but also for some rather less demonic events like Disney on Ice and The Wiggles. I’m not sure what relevance that has to its use as a vaccination centre either way.

Well sure. Any arena or stadium like that is likely to have hosted a wide range of concerts and shows. That Adams zeroed on the handful of “Satanic rock bands”—and Slipknot in particular—tells me all I need to know.

Wait until Mike Adams learns that The Wiggles had a concert at The Qudos Bank Arena!

Oh the days when we used to take the pïss out of Mike Adams pretending to be a scientist and finding fibers in McNuggets. Now he is just incredibly sad.

A dip into the turgid waters BTL is even sadder.

On things Australian and Mike Adams, NN has another article, written by Ethan Huff, about the NSW Minister for Customer Services claiming Victor Dominello got Bell’s Palsy the moment he was vaccinated for COVID-19 live on TV with an mRNA vaccine (presumably Pfizer, because that is the only mRNA vaccine available in Australia).

Sadly for this conspiracy theory, when people noticed Dominello’s drooping eyelid 3 days ago, he was giving a press conference about business grants for lockdown affected businesses, not being vaccinated. He has not been vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine, having received one dose of AstraZeneca (not mRNA) vaccine in May. His quotes in the story have been placed against imaginary happenings.

Only the 80s?
In the 50s real Rock and Roll was was described as; ‘Devil’s Music’ with added blatant racism (N****r bop).
And don’t forget that the Deep South had a Beatles Bonfire when John Lennon implied that they were more popular than Jesus a decade later.

Re: Ghost

I discovered the song Cirice the group Ghost through a reprise by Violet Orlandi. She has also done some good interpretations, alone or with other singers, of songs from Nirvana, Evanescence, Linkin Park, Three Days Grace, Imagine Dragons…

Qudos Bank Arena is also known as the Sydney Super Dome and Adams better tell the Hillsong church that the place is demonic because they have held their yearly weeklong conference there almost every year since the place was built for the Sydney Olympics.

Planning mass executions with the spike protein? Given the number of vaccinations given around the world, you’d think there would have been millions dropping dead in the streets by now.

Not sure what he thinks he’ll be able to buy with gold if civilisation collapses. Maybe he wants to lie on a bed of gold ingots and wait for hobbits.

Mass executions of the people who most willingly comply with the “evil overlords.” Makes perfect sense.

Nah. Not even for people stupid enough to get their scientific advice from homeopaths, film makers, conspiracy theorists and supplement hawkers.

I still can’t get over the whole magnetic vaccine, 5G rubbish. I mean, if you want to convince people of your cause, you don’t send a bunch of loons as representation. People are going to assume that these guys are your best and brightest. If that’s the case, then what sort of mental capacity does the rank and file have?

The spike protein is part of the virus. How can you be super upset about the protein if you think the virus is harmless?

Well, it’s not immediate death. But I promise you, everyone who gets the vaccine will die eventually.

@ ChrisP:

Mike still has the laboratory! Only theses days, he uses it to uncovers TOXINS in other people’s products and the purity of his own! In fact, he based his book, Food Forensics on his discoveries. Frequently, he mentions the ” millions of dollars” he has spent on instruments and that his facility has been certified.
Expensive cosplay/ cargo culting, I’d say.

Unfortunately, being a nutter, Adams is an easy punching bag.

In the end, the ultimate perpetrator of violence is potentially the government, which is moving more and more toward complete intolerance of anyone who declines. Arrest, imprisonment etc have been repreatedly threatened (and carried out in some places already). that gives people like Adams a soapbox.

There is currently a concept of ‘othering’ being pushed by authorities (both government and government-medical), promoting a societal view that people who choose not to vaccinate are evil anti-social threats (reminiscent of Stalin’s ‘kulaks’)

Personally, I am vaccinated and have had no side effects at all. At age 72, I calculated that was my best choice. But I also have serious reservations about the technology, in part because the governmental narrative is ‘happy happy’. Compare this to drug ads on TV with the long disclaimers of possible or even theoretical side effects are required on EVERY commercial, but never mentioned on PSAs. That seems to cross the line between encouragement and propaganda.

We know there are problems (based in part from VAERS, Yellow Tag, and the EU monitoring systems) , including unproven but logically plausible long term issues, in greater numbers than traditional vaccines. Cramming a new technology into a compressed time scale, and trying to push this to an entire population– that is reckless.

It comes down to the right of the individual (defined by Ayn Rand as the smallest minority).
The collective is toxic

“unproven but logically plausible long term issues”

What is your method for comparing those “unproven but logically plausible long term issues” of the vaccines(s) versus the known consequences of the disease?

This again?

Individuals in organizations make them toxic. I’ve seen it so much, it’s gross and many times fraudulent. Can’t say that decisions from the group are best, but if there is a genuine evaluation of best information that is what should be the decent path. Ayn Rand was not interested in scientific data or democracy by conversation. Ayn Rand is to government as much as Tim Tebow is to football. Neither are good and the exaltation after the numbers come in kinda says — they wrong. Charge that hill though. Some day you will be able to walk down the street naked but so too will the other citizens. The ultimate is, who will stop other people from jacking you up or pulling you down. How cash do you have sitting around. That is Rand’s rights. Cash and wealth make the citizen.

Individuals that don’t believe they have much responsibility as a citizen to their own country or citizens are doomed (and should be). Frankly, all governments require an agreement based on whatever charter there is, that at the very least, identifies membership requirements and hopefully the viability of support to each.

I like other authors who have compassion and better sense of what supports life. Rand is a car crash to me.

Who has been arrested and imprisoned for refusing a vaccination? Names please.

I’ve been expected deaths to occur for some time now, thanks to the increasingly unhinged and violent rhetoric of antivaxers like RFK Jr:

“We are in the last battle. This is the apocalypse. We are fighting for the salvation of humanity. We all knew this was coming at some point. I never believed it would come in my lifetime, but here it is…”

“We have to fight, and we have to die with our boots on if necessary. Everybody here, I’m confident, knows what their duty is and is going to do that duty, and I’m going to be beside you.”

http://pheedloop.com/AutismOne2021Conference/site/home/

“and I’m going to be beside you.”
Yeah, riiiight.
That’s the largest pile of bull shite in Jr’s whole BS screech.

Stephanie Seneff, Judy Mikovits and Billy DeMoss all on the same program? It is going to be full on looney tunes.

I see that most things in the anti-vaxxer community never change, they just add more and more nonsense to the pile. Kerri Rivera the bleach queen is back peddling her dangerous bleach cures autism treatments. It is a good thing the conference is virtual this year, because I understand Kerri is having some difficulties with the German authorities.

Yes, there will be killing. With the virulent push of a vaccine many people don’t want, civil unrest is the first step. Should it continue in the same rhythm – some areas are already denying basic services unless you get the vaccine – you will see civil war. While the chances of this are still rather low, they’re steadily climbing.

It’s all so very simple. You took the shot, you feel safe, leave me out of it. I’ll sign whatever I have to stating I refuse the procedure and forfeit my right to claim compensation should I fall ill (with Covid), as well as family compensation should I die (of Covid). Your very own CDC acknowledged that BOTH categories will spread the disease just as much (https://abc7news.com/coronavirus-delta-variant-symptoms-covid-vaccine/10918440/), but that the category you’re in simply will tolerate it better. Allow the rest of us to risk our lives. They’re ours to risk after all, right?

I’ll sign whatever I have to stating I refuse the procedure and forfeit my right to claim compensation should I fall ill (with Covid), as well as family compensation should I die (of Covid).

And when you pass SARS-CoV-2 on to other people you will pay for their medical care and compensate their families if they die?

@Chris

On a personal level I’m fairly certain I won’t, my life being a very monotonous one – eat, sleep, ride a bike to work (where there’s minimal to no contact), ride bike home, rinse and repeat. On a broad level it’s a choice we’ve made as a whole. Consider how many people responded in a positive manner to this vaccine – how many took it. There has been ample opportunity; those who wanted it, got it. Overall, those who didn’t represent quite a large majority still, at least for now.

There has been ample opportunity; those who wanted it, got it. Overall, those who didn’t represent quite a large majority still, at least for now.

You have a curious definition of “large majority.”

@Chris Preston

And when you pass SARS-CoV-2 on to other people you will pay for their medical
care and compensate their families if they die?

Are you going to compensate?
Vaccinated also spread the virus and they also can die from it.

Your logic is total bull*.

Do I?
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

Unadulterated horseshit, Catalin. Let’s review:

On a broad level it’s a choice we’ve made as a whole. Consider how many people responded in a positive manner to this vaccine – how many took it. There has been ample opportunity; those who wanted it, got it. Overall, those who didn’t represent quite a large majority still, at least for now.

And now you want to switch to global statistics and hope that nobody notices? Fuck off.

@Aarno Syvänen

I hadn’t heard of that particular term, I’m familiar with the phenomenon. That’s human nature for you. Setting aside the safety issues I may have, this type behavior is one of the reasons behind my apathy towards mankind.

@Narad

You’re quick to bold out what’s of interest. I guess the “at least for now” part has no significance for you. You pointed at one end of the spectrum, I pointed at the image as a whole, as it stands now. As Aarno pointed out, there are factors which will change that picture, hence my final 4 words in that post. But yes, let’s review.

You want to induce the idea that the USA’s status represents what the world would look like, would it not be for factors such as the example given by Aarno. We could be debating this for a long time and reach no agreement. The way I see it, 51.3% for the USA vs 32.2% for the world would mitigate around the 50% mark (willing to vaccinate). Why?

Firstly, as new variants appear and booster shots become a thing, refusal will rise. Half of my family is vaccinated, and I know many people who’ve only done so because they believed it was the only way to return to a normal life, and not because of fear of the virus – but they didn’t anticipate the need for regular boosters due to variants. Because of that, they are now refusing all further shots, out of pure disappointment. I noticed this behavior scarcely when boosters were first announced, but more frequently over time.

Secondly – this having nothing to do with the segment you decided to bold out – vaccine apartheid is highly unlikely to diminish significantly, enough so that countries which presumably as a majority want the vaccines, will get them. It’s our nature to tend to our interests, and that implies those closest to us. As new variants emerge, countries will most likely continue to hoard supplies for their own population, which would be normal if those supplies wouldn’t exceed current demand as is the case now. The country I live in has requested a number of doses 6.2 times larger that the number of people, “for years to come”, just so that we secure a position in line – this as part of Europe’s strategy, ignoring the signs of refusal. So most of those doses will eventually end up to be either sold or donated.

Third. Tricky subject, but worth mentioning. People are finding ways to get their passports without getting vaccinated. While this is still in its womb, I don’t doubt it’ll spread enough that the numbers will reflect reality even less.

All in all, that’s partly my view of things for now. I really am trying to keep the conversation civilized. Please work with me.

And if a variant appears that kills 50% of all unvaccinated folks who get it? I wonder what they’ll be saying then.

People probably don’t realize that there were strains of the HIV virus that killed 99% of the people who got it – and the only reason it wasn’t more widespread is that it killed people too quickly.

Delta is already as infectious as Chicken Pox…people who are “disappointed” that they might need additional shots?

Those people can pound sand, because they are functionally morons.

On a broad level it’s a choice we’ve made as a whole.

You are a sociopath then? Unsurprising.

@Catalin Perhaps people do understand that booster shots are needed for new variants, which are caused by continuing pandemic.
Btw, boosters are not yet accepted in US,

@Aarno Syvänensays:

“Perhaps people do understand that booster shots are needed for new variants, which are caused by continuing pandemic.
Btw, boosters are not yet accepted in US,”

Yes, some do accept the idea. Others thought it was a 1 time deal and began to refuse followups. And then there’s another category which refuses them believing it’s becoming a money machine. I’m not sure what the proportions of these groups are yet..

I’m guessing the US is still waiting on confirmation that they are indeed needed, or that they work against new strains.

Well…

“The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals.”

Almost not accepted. 😛

What every government needs to do is accede to the demands of every minority viewpoint in it’s population. That’s the best way of running a country. You can have religious fundamentalists burning witches at the stake, restricting educational opportunities for women and insisting on Young Earth Creationism being taught as fact in school (to the boys only of course), everyone is free to own as many tigers as they like in New York, hunting takes place all year round and .50 Cal machine guns are compulsory.

Sounds like a winning formula to me.

Problem is, guy-when you show up in extremis in the ER, there is no such thing as a “Don’t treat me I’m a dumb covid denier” POLST form or whatever. I have to stick you on a vent.

Correct. If the ER is not overwhelmed, you’ll be treated. If it is and if any triage is necessary, your priority will be based on your medical acuity and severity, nothing more, which is the way it should be.

I’m not implying Covid doesn’t exist. I’m merely scaling millions of years of evolution versus a few decades worth of research. You don’t have a form? Propose one.

So I presume you won’t accept cancer treatment, which is millions of years of evolution versus a few decades worth of research? Or what about antibiotics, which have only existed in their current form since the 1930s: Billions of years of evolution versus less than a century of research? Or ANY vaccine, given that the vast majority of vaccines on the schedule aren’t more than around 60-70 years old: That’s billions of years of evolution versus a few decades of research as well.

Just to be clear, in case it doesn’t read that way, my entire post was sarcasm aimed at Catalin.

I’ve seen my share of Friday night d##kheads in A&E being treated by long-suffering doctors and nurses, despite the abuse. Luckily, my own patients aren’t organic and can sometimes be hit with a hammer.

“millions of years of evolution versus a few decades worth of research.”

Millions of years of gradual yet extreme climate change versus a few decades for the extreme climate change. Not my problem.

Dr, it hurts when I do this (rubs a balloon on its’ head and then all up in a rack of naked FPGAs).

“Don’t do that.”

Different topics, different approaches. Comparing what isn’t comparable will indeed hurt, though I don’t think it warrants a visit at the Dr.

@Catalin Million years of immune system evolution, I presume. Pathogens evolve, too. Much faster than humans, actually. They are capable to circumvent immune system. SARS CoV 2 is quite good in this, actually.

@Aarno Syvänen

That’s true, but in this particular case I have my doubts. While the data is still preliminary, the people who have recovered from the disease seem to have better protection levels compared to those that haven’t fallen ill but took the shot(s). This suggests to me that the innate immune system is doing a better job. We’ll know more about it in time, though.

@Orac

With the current status of cancer research, no, I would not take treatment for it.

Antibiotics have been assessed and their effects observed over a much longer period of time. Same as the older vaccines. So this turns into billions of years vs. several decades of use and observation. (that last part is quite significant)

In contrast, mRNA technology history barely goes back to around when I was born, and the first product of its kind came out last year. So this basically boils down to trust, which we don’t innately have in high “quantities” as a species.

In my perspective this technology begs questions which won’t be answered for many years to come. The one I’m most interested in so far is: if the technology can teach my body to produce something, what else will it be able to teach it?

“Comparing what isn’t comparable will indeed hurt”

But it is all connected. Somehow.

@Catalin Isolation of penicillin was WWII project. Cushing excised brain tumors before it,
What is possible problems with mRNA vaccines ? No turn off switch ? Check blood concentration of spike protein. No spike protein, no mRNA translation.
There is actually no proof that natural immunity is better. Tp get you must have the disease. It has caused hundred thousands deaths alreadyl

In my perspective this technology begs questions [sic] which won’t be answered for many years to come. The one I’m most interested in so far is: if the technology can teach my body to produce something, what else will it be able to teach it?

How to ride a unicycle while playing a concertina? If you’re “interested,” why don’t you put out some fear-ideas rather than JAQing off?

@Aarno Syvänen

No proof natural immunity is better? The missions of years I’ve mentioned before.. we’re still around, aren’t we? Pathogens didn’t start to exist when we first noticed them. We’ve adapted, they’ve adapted – and that is cyclical. What we’ve managed to do through medicine was simply slow down their adaptive process, in some cases causing near eradication – not because of the potency of the medicine, but because of the pathogen’s slow adaptation response. This isn’t the case with Covid.

What would the problems be with the technology? I don’t know, that’s why I’m hesitant. I don’t think it’s been observed enough to determine if all or most of its risks are worth the choice. The millions of deaths are within the 0.1%-0.4% range, remembering that most cases still go undetected due to
– being mild or asymptomatic
– lack of tests in some areas
– denial
So personally, if I have to chose between what I don’t know about the vaccine and that % range, I’ll take my chances. Even more so having had Covid.

@Narad

I don’t get the references, sorry. Could you be specific? What “fear-ideas” should I be putting out?

Yes, natural immunity IS worse.
Catching a disease to gain immunity to it is like burning something to fireproof it. The risks of every disease we vaccinate against are well-known, and are orders of magnitude more dangerous than the vaccine. Risking the disease to avoid the minuscule harms of vaccination is idiocy.

@MedicalYeti

I have to stick you on a vent.

WTF? Are you not aware that ventilators don’t work?
They’re a death sentence. This has been know for over year.
Putting a patient on a ventilator can cause significant damage to the heart, kidneys or brain that may be permanent, or even fatal.

How many people did you kill?

I thought that conspiracy theory based on a controversy early in the pandemic regarding timing of instituting mechanical ventilation and the settings used had gone away. I should’ve known better. Nonsense never dies, and you’re perfect evidence of it.

Idiots attach themselves to nonsense the same way an Arcturan megaleech attaches itself to its victim before biting off his head and making off with his spaceship.

You seems to forget Black Death and smallpox, among other. Actually pathogens adapted, we did not. Replication time of bacteria is hours, humans live 80 years. What genome evolves more quickly ?

@Aarno Syvänen

“You seems to forget Black Death and smallpox, among other. Actually pathogens adapted, we did not. Replication time of bacteria is hours, humans live 80 years. What genome evolves more quickly ?”

Eh.. first example predates modern medicine. There wasn’t much anyone could’ve done at that point to avoid the disaster. 2nd example was indeed mainly eradicated by vaccines, as well as antiviral medicine. These days sanitation and the separation between man and nature generally leads to avoidance of such cases. Still, I can’t in good conscience compare diseases having 30%-60% mortality rates to Covid, currently situated well below 1%..

As far as evolution goes.. in my “imprisonment” time (quarantine) last year I was going nuts. I wasn’t scared, but I did begin to wonder what the chances of “doom” were, so I went on a research rampage. I can’t say much of the information stayed with me.. once I realized the danger wasn’t that grave I sort of dumped the information, but I did keep bookmarks on what I found interesting. Here’s one example: https://theconversation.com/human-evolution-is-still-happening-possibly-faster-than-ever-105683 – article alone isn’t the whole read; the references helped make sense. 😛

I couldn’t possibly tell you which evolves faster, but I’m fairly certain that at this point in time pathogens are less likely to wipe us out than our own actions.

@Catalin Why you invoke modern medicine ? Question is does pathogens or humans evolve faster. It is worse than that actually. Some pathogens actually highjack human immune system itself. Plague bacterium is an example of this, It survives phagocytosis. Another thing about plague is that it has an alternate host. It will survive even if all the humanity is killed, This is general problem with zoonosis.
There is no antivirals against smallpox, actually:
Harrison SC, Alberts B, Ehrenfeld E, Enquist L, Fineberg H, McKnight SL, Moss B, O’Donnell M, Ploegh H, Schmid SL, Walter KP, Theriot J. Discovery of antivirals against smallpox. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Aug 3;101(31):11178-92. doi: 10.1073/pnas.0403600101. Epub 2004 Jul 12. PMID: 15249657; PMCID: PMC50918

@Aarno Syvänen

“Why you invoke modern medicine ? Question is does pathogens or humans evolve faster. It is worse than that actually. Some pathogens actually highjack human immune system itself. Plague bacterium is an example of this, It survives phagocytosis. Another thing about plague is that it has an alternate host. It will survive even if all the humanity is killed, This is general problem with zoonosis.”

I invoked it because it, along with other factors, some of which I’ve already mentioned (sanitation, separation from nature, animal healthcare, faster detection due to readily accessible information etc.), such extreme cases are all but extinct. For this example, while Plague has potency it now lacks mobility due to the above mentions. Setting aside that we’re comparing bacteria with viruses, Covid-19 is a perfect opposite when it comes to potency and spread.

As for the second question, again, there’s no way for me to provide an answer on which evolves faster. For pathogens, that’s dictated by 2 criteria: spread and adaptation level – so it will obviously differ for each pathogen depending on how fast they spread AND how able it is to survive its new environment.

Considering how long we’ve been around, as a species, we’ve most likely been exposed to a large majority of what’s going rampant around the world. Interracial relations over time are also certain to have increased protection levels due to genetic memory. If you ask me, the appearance of a super pathogen, able to transmit as fast as it kills, keeping in mind today’s healthcare status, is likely to remain a myth – unless WE have a direct hand in it.

“There is no antivirals against smallpox, actually: […]”

Yes, there are no approved ones specifically for it. It is, however, believed that some which were used at the time might have helped. I’m in no position to question this.

@Catalin To give you a more modern example, Spanish flu and HIV. Or COVID, for that matter. Millions of deaths are quite bad, would you think ? It is not just lethality. infectivity counts, too
We are not that separated of nature, bush meat is still eaten. There are natural reserve visits, and farm animals, too.
SARS CoV 2 replication time is 6.5 hours:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.26.117069v1.full.pdf
Is mutability is much higher.

@Aarno Syvänen

Please excuse the late reply. Work overhaul.

“To give you a more modern example, Spanish flu and HIV. Or COVID, for that matter. Millions of deaths are quite bad, would you think ? It is not just lethality. infectivity counts, too”

Yes, millions of deaths count. But so does proportion.

You can’t ask me to to believe we’re in the same situation when the Spanish Flu is thought to have wiped out between 1% and 6% of the entire human population in almost one year. Compared to back then the population has more than quadrupled, which is likely why we’re seeing more spread in Covid, and even with that higher spread rate, if you’re to punch in the same factors you get 3 zeros after the decimal point. There’s a highly significant difference.

As for HIV, its transmissibility is limited and its lethality dependent on the subject way of life. Even with no effective cure around I’d say it’s being decently handled.

“We are not that separated of nature, bush meat is still eaten. There are natural reserve visits, and farm animals, too.”

I never said we were completely separated. But.. bush meat, natural reserves and farm animals? I do believe I mentioned animal healthcare in an earlier post. And unless you’re eating your bush meat raw, I’m pretty sure heat takes care of most problems which could arise.

“SARS CoV 2 replication time is 6.5 hours:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.26.117069v1.full.pdf
Is mutability is much higher.”

Maybe it is. Then again, maybe not? It’s been 1 year and 4 months since that study was published and it still doesn’t show up as peer reviewed. That kind of gives some idea on just how serious our predicament is being taken.

I never said we were completely separated.

You mean aside from the bid for the most incoherent mind–body dualism pitch of all time, I take it.

@Narad

No, I’m actually talking about physical separation. I’m not much of a spiritual guy. Though admittedly I won’t be too quick to rule out everything the “mind over body” theory has to say.

@Narad

You know, everything has the potential to be perceived as incoherent under the right circumstances. It really depends a lot on the receptor’s background, understanding and will power should the sender’s ability to convey thoughts is lacking (and of course presuming there’s anything to digest in the first place). But I get that patience is at its lowest in our warp speed era.

COVID incubation time is days. During this time, viral load has grown big enough to cause symptomatic disease. This alone shows that replication time must be hours.
“Lifestyle choice again”. HIV have been handled so well that it have killed more people than all wars, expect WWII. Currently it is prevetable, but not truly curable (multidrug therapy prevents AIDS, but do not clear the virus). This is an example what happens when there is no vaccine for a viral disease.
You did not understand my reference to farmed animals and bushmeat. Farmed chicken begot bird flu and bush meat (apes) ebola.
COVID has killed millions already If it is allowed to run as long as Spanish flu did,
number of deaths would be quite similar.

<“Lifestyle choice again”. HIV have been handled so well that it have killed more people than all wars, expect WWII. Currently it is prevetable, but not truly curable (multidrug therapy prevents AIDS, but do not clear the virus). This is an example what happens when there is no vaccine for a viral disease.>

I didn’t say it was handled well, I said it’s being handled well, as in, now, these days. There has been progress which slowed down the death rate significantly.

I suppose you didn’t get my heat comment. Cooking temperature kills most viruses. This applies to both bird flu and ebola.

Most of the Spanish flu deaths occurred in the first 2 years. We’re in our 2nd year of Covid, and it’s running rampant. Numbers are nowhere near similar.

“As for HIV, its transmissibility is limited”

Umm, yes, you can get AIDS from a toilet seat if you sit down before the other fellow gets up.

Also, the spike protein causing women to bleed all into each other might be an anomaly of concern as well.

I am an equal opportunity homophobe. It is symmetric. Of course scissoring is required. What? It is a phonetically perfect word and as a verb something that girls healthily engage in. From time to time. When they think I’m not looking.

https://www.insider.com/people-are-spamming-a-pro-life-tip-line-in-texas-2021-8

The site accepts unvetted images and links. Weirdly, Shrek prn is winning out over 2G1C, Lemon Party, GOATSE, and “I nutted in my 70 yo MIL and now I think she is using the wire wisker in her persqueeter to try and harm babby which I think I formed. Also, an Amazon guy delivered the wisker.

Get in whilst you may as some dweebs reported the site to the hosting company, GoDaddy (fitting), that forbids such uploading of stimulating content.

@Catalin People will get viruses when they slaughter or market apes or other bushmeat, or when they farm animals, You can get virus before cooking, too. Heat has no effect there.

And we came up with protective gear for that scenario.

Yes, there are instances where our measures are bypassed, but not really that many and usually dealt with swiftly.

That would’ve been a blessing. Insanity takes away the pain. It’s sanity that allows one to acknowledge it. Take care.

Good luck with that. I’m on (or used to be…now not so sure) the same side as the “freedumb” crowd, and I won’t have their backs. Keep telling me putting masks on my kids is “child abuse.” That will no doubt help.

“Yes, there will be killing. ”

Thank you for admitting it. So many antivax liars pretend that they can win with facts – but at least you acknowledge that the only way that the antivax agenda can win is with Khmer Rouge-like executions of anyone with medical knowledge.

I’m not admitting to anything. I’m sharing an opinion based on how the human mind works when it’s pushed where it doesn’t want to go. Disinformation is spread by both sides, and until the waters clear resistance is still to be expected. You have articles stating that ~98% of hospitalized cases are not vaccinated, which openly mention their sources – then upon inspecting the source you find out that the information in the article is nowhere to be found ( https://www.kpcnews.com/covid-19/article_f0e9bff4-a968-56b3-928d-734094459955.html ). You bring up the antivax title when the truth is I’m in no way, shape or form part of that category. Preliminary data is incomplete data. Once safety has been assessed (scheduled in the following years, btw), more people will join your ranks. Until then, live with the safety bestowed on you, the risk you took, and allow the rest to as their consciousness dictates.

Article says that vaccinated can spread the virus. It does not mention any numbers, much less comparing numbers between vaccinated and unvaccinated.
Killing people is not very tolerant, btw.

Exactly. It says that the vaccinated can get infected and can have viral loads as high as the unvaccinated in their airways, but it doesn’t say how frequently either happens relative to the unvaccinated. Moreover subsequent statements and research seems to indicate that, even though the vaccinated can catch the delta variant, their viral load falls much faster than it does in the unvaccinated, meaning that they are infectious for a shorter period of time.

What antivaxxers don’t understand is that it’s not all-or-nothing. No vaccine is 100% effective, and not all vaccines produce so-called sterilizing immunity, which is the situation when the vaccine is so effective that the virus can’t even gain a foothold to cause infection. There are several vaccines that do not produce sterilizing immunity (hepatitis B and pertussis, for example), but they are still very useful at preventing illness and decreasing the rate of transmission.

Are we talking about the same kpcnews article? There’s a chart comparing the 2 categories at the very top of the article. Then here’s an extract from further down: “Of the total hospitalizations in the state this year, just 1.4% have been vaccinated Hoosiers, compared to 98.6% unvaccinated.” I’m seeing a lot of comparison between numbers here. Now, scroll down to the article sources, inspect them closely, and tell me where you find the data mentioned in the article. Either I’m blind or it’s simply not there.

As for numbers, some are in. Here’s one example – https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w. The limitations mentioned in the report aren’t new – they have been there for almost every study on Covid. Extract: “This might mean that the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 is also similar.”

Interestingly, the report specifies a 69% vaccination rate (fully) compared to tracking being done here – https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/state/massachusetts – where the numbers for July are 61,76%-63,93%. Regardless, the percentage of vaccinated Covid cases (74%) slightly outweigh the percentage of vaccinated people – it’s likely that asymptomatic cases would mitigate these percentages to be similar, which would mark the above extract as true.

You have articles stating that ~98% of hospitalized cases are not vaccinated, which openly mention their sources – then upon inspecting the source you find out that the information in the article is nowhere to be found

Bakelite Boi is obviously incompetent, because I found all of the data cited in the article in the sources provided (or could be directly derived from that data). Also, safety has been fully assessed for the Pfizer vaccine; the FDA is set to announce full approval as early as Monday. The remaining time on the vaccine trial is for evaluating the need for boosters, additional doses targeting variants, and alternative dose schedules. While the safety of the additional doses will be evaluated, the initial two-dose course safety profile has been completed.

I bet Plasticman didn’t bother to go to the Vaccine Dashboard on the Indiana coronavirus site – despite being directed to do so by the article. Much of the data in the article is on the Breakthrough tab, but that doesn’t have a persistent URL. It takes several clicks from the landing site to get to the Vaccine Dashboard. Start here for one less click:

https://www.coronavirus.in.gov/vaccine/index.htm

@W. Kevin Vicklund

Thanks for pointing that out. I did state that either I’m blind or the information isn’t there. I actually did land on the page you provided, but just missed the 4 subtitles in the upper right corner, one of which indeed contains breakthrough cases. So I’ll admit the article isn’t a lie.. well, at least not completely.

Now that I’ve accessed the data, it’s interesting to note that the comparison is being made since the beginning of the year, when Indiana’s vaccination rate was below 1%. It gradually moves up to 25% late April, 40% on July 1st, 45.5% today. Add 2-5% to those numbers to get a true picture, eliminating people who aren’t eligible to get the shot.

With that in mind, I’d love to see the data broken down since July 1st. For instance, total hospitalizations since then have been reported to be 3003 – unique patients – until August 15th, when the article came out. (3510 until today) Unfortunately, the dashboard doesn’t provide the data on breakthrough cases or hospitalizations broken down on a timeline. This would paint more accurate percentages, now that the number of vaccinated people is close to that of the unvaccinated, wouldn’t you agree?

So, what figures you have in the article are skewed.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s obvious the favor will still end up on the vaccinated side. I’d simply like it if it were presented in a true manner, instead of semi-false sensationalist newsflashes.

Here’s an update from New Mexico.
https://www.abqjournal.com/2421352/19-of-nms-new-virus-cases-were-vaccinated.html

Since Feb. 1, people who weren’t fully vaccinated have made up 91% of the state’s COVID-19 cases and 92% of the hospitalizations. But the picture is changing.

According to a Journal analysis of Department Health reports in a recent four-week period:

• People who aren’t fully vaccinated made up about 81% of the new cases reported by the state, or 10,644 of the 13,191 infections.

• Fully vaccinated individuals made up 19% of new cases.

• People not fully vaccinated made up about 87% of COVID-19 hospitalizations, or 644 of 742 hospitalized patients. (An internal estimate by the state put the figure at 86%, Morgan said.)

• Fully vaccinated individuals made up 13% of the COVID-19 hospitalizations.

Morgan said the state compiled similar figures for the last month, but he warned that the percentages could change as more information comes in.

“Over the next month we believe the data trends will stabilize,” he said, “and we can be more confident in these numbers.”

The Delta wave may be starting to crest here. The growth was “only” 55% the last 14 days. Cases in Bernalillo County are running 28 per 100K. Overall the state is 59% fully vaccinated. For comparison, Dallas County in Texas is running 47 per 100K.

So the vaccines are working to keep people alive and out of the hospitals, although perhaps not quite as well as we would like.

@Catalin Typical to antivaxxer, you forger the divisor. Vaccine effienciency is breaktrough cases per number of vaccinated. Repeat this until you get it. How many visitors were vaccinated and how many unvaccinated ?

@Catalin Why you should omit data with low vaccination rate? Interesting thing is not number of COVID cases, but number COVID cases per number of unvaccinated, This could be compared with number of breaktrough cases per number of vaccinated.

@Aarno Syvänen

One shouldn’t omit that data. However, that specific article doesn’t make the comparison the in same manner as @squirrelelite example, which compares them as you just said they should, and is a more accurate method. The article I pointed out compares (hospitalized) cases divided by total cases instead of separating total cases into vaccinated and otherwise. So the numbers are skewed to widen the gap in favor of vaccination, which is simply misinformation in my opinion.

I repeat, the favor still lies with the vaccinated, just not as much as presented – or expected, as @squirrelelite points out.

Now, as to the forgery accusation. I’ve seen many replies on this blog as to how the more people get vaccinated, the more their active numbers will grow because it’s the logic of proportion. This is also true for hospitalized cases. And the same argument applies to unvaccinated people. That’s the reason one would leave out the time frame where proportions had a wide gap. It’s quite difficult to statistically account for that gap accurately. So when you have the proportions at a similar level, the comparison will provide more accurate efficiency percentages.

In the article regarding New Mexico’s recent state, I’d actually go ahead and trim their hospitalized vaccinated % by about 3 due to them having over 50% of the population vaccinated.

The Civil War is a very good comparison. In the 1850s and 60s, the South was getting very annoyed that some Northerners were telling the truth about slavery. It was appalling. Those rotten Northerners insisted that they had the right to tell the slavers that they were evil, foul people. Naturally, the slavers were at a loss – they couldn’t win their argument with words, since everyone knew that the Northerners were telling the truth. One southern Representative) got so upset that Charles Sumner told the truth about the South that he (the cowardly Representative) decided to get even. But how? A fair fight would be dangerous – and honest debate was out of the question (that whole “Sumner was telling the truth” business again) – so the CR (cowardly Representative) got a friend to help, and sprung a sneak attack on Sumner, beating him nearly to death. Well, naturally, all decent folks were repulsed, but the South felt differently. They thought that the CR was a fine example of Southern manliness (which he was – in a way), and thought that he had been provoked into violence by Sumner’s ungentlemanly telling of the truth.

So when you hear an antivaxxer say that the doctors and nurses and public health advocates are provoking violence with their unseemly devotion to keeping people alive even when keeping people alive bruises antivaxxers’ delicate, tender, infantile feelings, just picture poor impotent Preston Brooks (the Cowardly Representative himself) beating and beating on Charles Sumner, trying with each stroke to feel more like a man, and less like a worm – and failing, oh so badly.

I can understand that it’s more “convenient” to lay the death of hundreds of thousands of people on the noble cause which was abolitionism, but to be fully honest one would need to include the preceding taxation tensions between the regions which I’m sure you’re aware of – and which, to this day, historians are still debating to be the spark for the war. Consider this my way of saying that not everything is as it seems to be, or as it’s presented to be.

Civil wars generally revolve around freedom. It’s quite difficult to restrict acquired freedom when your spear arguments are:
1. An obviously inflated ~1% case fatality rate;
2. The prospect of it worsening, baring in mind that recent similar prospects have failed to produce the predicted effects (see: SARS 2003 and Swine Flu 2009), giving some people a rough image of how much competence is involved in these matters.

USA, France, Germany, Australia – these aren’t the only places where restrictions are causing social havoc – which, by the way, has been mostly avoided by the media, even when numbers piled way above the “worth mentioning” level. While the suppression is logical from a governmental perspective, it fuels the movements further.

@Catalin There was tariff of abominations, but this problem was resolved. Actual causes were slavery in territories and Fugitive Slaves Act.
You keep insisting that 1% mortality is “obviously inflated”. What about COVID being third leading cause of mortality in US

“There was tariff of abominations, but this problem was resolved. Actual causes were slavery in territories and Fugitive Slaves Act.”

Eh.. that one may have been resolved, but it was followed by others, which I guess were removed again as well – however tensions don’t go away that easily. Hostile moves will obviously implant wariness, and repetition decreases the speed with which trust is regained, hence tensions remaining.

“You keep insisting that 1% mortality is “obviously inflated”. What about COVID being third leading cause of mortality in US”

That number is not only preliminary, but flawed, and will likely to never be fully elucidated. Remember that lots of deaths were assigned to Covid when they weren’t supposed to be. Deaths are normally statistically settled over 2 years. So in 2022 we’ll have official (non-preliminary) numbers for 2020. I’m expecting errors which were made in 2020 to be corrected this year, so personally I’m waiting for figures due in 2023.

@Catalin Have you check Fugitive Slaves Act ? A rather hostile act, I would say.
CDC numbers are not that bad. There are some errors, they are not totally wrong.

Catalin:

…, Australia – these aren’t the only places where restrictions are causing social havoc – which, by the way, has been mostly avoided by the media, even when numbers piled way above the “worth mentioning” level.

What’s this Australian “social havoc” of which you write?

The relatively small demonstrations held last weekend in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth? That were “avoided by the media” so much that they made national news, like here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-21/anti-covid-lockdown-protesters-clash-with-police-in-melbourne/100396458

< What’s this Australian “social havoc” of which you write?

The relatively small demonstrations held last weekend in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth? That were “avoided by the media” so much that they made national news, like here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-21/anti-covid-lockdown-protesters-clash-with-police-in-melbourne/100396458 >

@prl – Apologies, I had missed this comment.

No, I’m talking about the demonstrations you won’t generally find in mainstream media channels; that were live streamed as they were happening and ignored at the time, only to later make some of the headlines – which is normally detrimental to such movements. What happened after that is a combination of discouraging factors towards such movements:
– insane fines which instituted fear among those that would gather, greatly diminishing their numbers from the beginning;
– coverage and almost exclusive accentuation on the violent aspects of the demonstrations, making some people truly believe it was only a bunch of nutcases screaming “Away with Covid!”;
– assaulted journalists… and this is where you’d argue that insane protesters are behind it, while I’d point out how it isn’t out of the realm of possibility to have government discourage coverage of such rallies using shady methods.

One wouldn’t have seen these things had one not watched while they were unfolding, comparing the live streams with what the media was promoting. And censorship took care of most materials one could use today to investigate. While some people may have kept records, context has changed – minds have been swayed and there’s fear of being seen as the odd one out should you point out what was vs. what was provided – conspiracy theorists – the devil incarnate, these days.

You think those protesters just all of a sudden woke up one day and decided to get violent? Could it be that censorship frustration played a role in it? You should concerns at someone that’s ignoring you for a few minutes and you’ll eventually get annoyed at the ignorance, especially when you discover there are efforts to suppress your voice behind it.

@Catalin Read this one:
https://www.fda.gov/emergency-preparedness-and-response/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/comirnaty-and-pfizer-biontech-covid-19-vacc
On August 23, 2021, the FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine. The vaccine has been known as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine, and will now be marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older. The vaccine also continues to be available under emergency use authorization (EUA), including for individuals 12 through 15 years of age and for the administration of a third dose in certain immunocompromised individuals.
You, of course, did a misleading selective citation.

What was misleading about it?

You said a 3rd dose wasn’t accepted. I opened up the link YOU provided, read it, and simply pointed out a piece of official text that said otherwise, specifically mentioning which group was targeted.

I don’t see what context I may have missed for the reply to be considered misleading.

Ooooh don’t even get me started on that… some of the people commenting on this are perfectly right to do so. What you’re quoting is a public statement. What’s inside the documents (the letter of approval) is a specific differentiation between the approved product and the one which got its EUA prolonged. From a legal perspective, BioNTech’s BLA passed, meaning their product is FDA approved, while the one Phizer’s involved in is not. That public statement has no legal binding. The letter of approval does. Whoever called this a “bait and switch” was perfectly right in doing so.

I myself was misleaded by your comment. It was like approval is not really approval. Original source says otherwise.

Then I apologize, I didn’t mean to pass off as misleading. What happened was I quoted the bit that was under discussion at that point, leaving out what is anyway controversial.

< I myself was misleaded by your comment. It was like approval is not really approval. Original source says otherwise. >

What I highlighted in your comment is exactly how I feel about the situation. Take what you quoted and compare it to the letter Phizer received. Orac actually wrote about it and in his own way even agreed we’re talking about 2 separate products, even if they’re said to be the same. Well, legally, they are not.

Approval letter (BioNTech): https://www.fda.gov/media/151710/download
Phizer-BioNTech letter: https://www.fda.gov/media/150386/download
Phizer-BioNTech Fact sheet: https://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download

These are the quotes I’m working with:

“On August 23, 2021, FDA approved the biologics license application (BLA) submitted by BioNTech Manufacturing GmbH for COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) for active immunization to prevent COVID-19 caused by SARS-CoV-2 in individuals 16 years of age and older.”
“On August 23, 2021, having concluded that revising this EUA is appropriate to protect the public health or safety under section 564(g)(2) of the Act, FDA is reissuing the August 12, 2021 letter of authorization in its entirety with revisions incorporated to clarify that the EUA will remain in place for the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine for the previously-authorized indication and uses, and to authorize use of COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) under this EUA for certain uses that are not included in the approved BLA.”
“Pfizer-BioNTech COVID‑19 Vaccine contains a nucleoside-modified messenger RNA
(modRNA) encoding the viral spike (S) glycoprotein of SARS-CoV-2 formulated in lipid particles. COMIRNATY (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) is the same formulation as the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine and can be used interchangeably with the Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series.8”
Fact sheet, page 1, bottom area, where both products are presented separately.

So here’s my issue. The FDA could have either approved both products (since they’re identical in formulation) or at least explain why on of them had its EUA prolonged instead of being granted a full license.

In the Fact sheet you can clearly see that BioNTech’s product (which is to be produced by Phizer) was called Cominarty from the get-go. In the release you quoted above, they’re talking about the second product being renamed as Comirnaty. At this point, you still have 2 legally distinct products. One of them had a name from early on and was granted a full license. The other was just now given the very same name as the first product, but only managed to receive an EUA extension. Which one of these 2 products, now called the same, with identical formulations but unexplained legal (or logistical, I believe I’ve read somewhere) differences will be administered through mandates? Who will be able to tell the difference? Why was this confusion not avoided? It’s this induced confusion that makes me question what the FDA is saying, including but not limited to whether the formulations are the same or not.

And top this off with the 2 chief scientists in charge of the licensing process retiring in about a month. So far, there’s nothing but speculation behind their retirements, but time will pass, and hopefully we get to learn more.

Damn. I knew there was an example that I had missed!

ADDENDUM: The example was too good not to add to the post. So a couple of paragraphs and quotes from the news report have been added to the post.

What you’re seeing is an immune response from people who are being pushed in a direction they don’t wish to go in. The scope of the reaction is to prevent what’s happening from being considered normal, because when that happens it’ll obviously be expected of everyone. As much as you might hate to admit it we’re still beasts – this is what you get when you corner a beast.

Calling insane death threats an immune response suggests you are not thinking clearly, to be polite.

There is law enforcement sitll, you. They would arrest you if you start killing people.

@Mark Robinowitz: Try looking at the broader picture: how has man kind historically responded to being forced/coerced into something? My suggestion is to ease the push if you want to avoid it.

@Aarno Syvänen: No doubt. But if civil war does happen to arise I’m fairly certain arrests won’t make much of a difference.

If mandates did not exist, it would be necessary to invent them. This goes beyond legitimate concerns about vaccine safety, uber Libertarians, right-wing fascists, snake oil salesmen, etc., are taking advantage of the ignorant to advance their own interests. Mandates are just a convenient excuse. If the prospect of public health mandates never came up, they would find some other reason to rage against the machine, even if they have to make stuff up. Their identy is intimately tied to acting as if cornered.

@George Nikolich

Mandates are indeed necessary for a society to be functional.

But when you try to impose a mandate for a vaccine you have no long term effects of, for a disease with an overestimated CFR of 0.2% – not all cases are reported, so you can trim that by quite a bit – bells will start to ring.

@ Catalin

for a vaccine you have no long term effects of

Just to give some strength to your concerns, could you point to a previous vaccine for which deleterious effects showed up after one year of use, and not before?

for a disease with an overestimated CFR of 0.2% – not all cases are reported

By that token, almost all currently existing vaccines should not be mandated or required anywhere. Measles is at 0.1%. Tetanus is lethal, but treatable (very expensively).
Smallpox was higher, but it’s not around anymore. Same for Polio. Almost.

Speaking of polio, living in an iron lung doesn’t count as dead, so no big deal, right?

You insist we should know the long-term effects of the vaccines, but don’t show the same concern about the long-term effects – or just the immediate non-lethal harm – of the viral infection itself.
That’s dishonest.

Why should we be concerned by your misplaced concerns? (or the antivaxers’ misplaced concerns, if you really don’t ascribe to these)
It’s on the same level of giving credence to someone’s beliefs that the lady in the house down the street is a witch.
Actually, the way antivaxers talk about vaccines, one may feel they are talking about a magic spell.

@Catalin Civil war for vaccinations ? More substantial causes are needed, like right to own slaves.
COVID has caused hundred thousand deaths, and more ICU cases. Thus mandates, which actually bare selective.

@Athaic

I guess we both know the only answer to your first question to be the Simian virus incident in ’55, and that you likely expected it. But my trust issues engulf the pharmaceutical system as a whole, not just the vaccine branch. So to expand on your question: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/new-drugs-found-cause-side-effects-years-after-approval-n757526

There’s no reason for me to believe I should differentiate between branches considering the political and financial approaches of these companies outgrow healthcare concerns, in my opinion.

“Why should we be concerned by your misplaced concerns?”

You shouldn’t. I’m here to kill time, not convince anyone. I’m aware that most people who make their way down here already made up their minds about what they should or shouldn’t do. I lay down my thoughts and concerns just as any of you do. Truth is relative. Both of our concerns could be misplaced, as well as none of them.

I’m aware of concerns on both side of the spectrum. Having a highly analytical nature I try my best to gather as much information as I can to back up my concerns. Thus far what I was able to gather and understand places me on a different side. There’s nothing more to it.

If I came across as insistent, I apologize. Being asked the same thing under a separate comment will warrant the same answer, hence the repetition.

People like you wishing for war and anarchy would be the first to go. Any of us who have actually served in combat would never wish it on anyone-LET ALONE OUR FELLOW CITIZENS. You are a pathetic, wanna-be tough guy.

@George Nikolich

…right-wing fascists..

LOL, did you seriously suggest fascists are AGAINST gov’t mandates?!

LOL OMG you people are hilarious.

BTW fascists are lefties lol

@ Catalin

You mean the Simian Virus 40?
OK, letting aside that that may not had any real effect, could you tell me how you would expect a repeat of that? A live-virus contaminant in a synthetic mRNA vaccine?
That would take some epic levels of incompetence.

As for the rest… My question was specifically about vaccines, not some random therapeutics.
So you got nothing.

@ Scientism Dave

did you seriously suggest fascists are AGAINST gov’t mandates?!

Only when it’s not their government, of course. Like everybody else, they are fine with the mandates they themselves decided upon.
The true test is with mandates or laws made by/for other people. Fascists have a very poor track at accepting them.
See pre-WW2 Spain as an example. Any pre-WW2 European country, actually.
Be logical, dude.

@MedicalYeti

“People like you wishing for war and anarchy […]”

“I’m only responsible for what I say, not for what you understand.” – while one could wave this quote off as a responsibility dodge, they would be correct had I not explained myself further – which I believe I have done extensively in this comment section. In short, “wishing” has no place in that statement.

“You are a pathetic, wanna-be tough guy.”

Aren’t we all 🙂

@Athaic

“You mean the Simian Virus 40?
OK, letting aside that that may not had any real effect, could you tell me how you would expect a repeat of that? A live-virus contaminant in a synthetic mRNA vaccine?
That would take some epic levels of incompetence.”

Obviously a repeat of ’55 is unlikely. However: https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/cdc-coronavirus-test-kits-were-likely-contaminated-federal-review-confirms/2020/06/20/1ceb4e16-b2ef-11ea-8f56-63f38c990077_story.html

How the situation was presented at the time is up for debate, but the incompetence is there regardless.

“As for the rest… My question was specifically about vaccines, not some random therapeutics.
So you got nothing.”

Yes, I noted that your question was targeted, which is why I expanded, and why I beg to differ.

Both branches are a part of the same complex, governed by the same rules. When decisions taken by the complex are more accentuated in their political and financial interests than they are towards health interests (see the lack of equity between how countries receive doses, as well as the differentiated pricing favoring those ordering more – which is a normal marketing strategy, but morally wrong when it comes to “saving lives”), trust levels in the complex diminish. Similarly, when articles such as the one I provided show people just how frequent recalls are, trust will be reduced further.

[quote] “The large percentage of problems was a surprise,” and they included side effects not seen during the review process, said Dr. Joseph Ross, the study’s lead author and an associate professor of medicine and public health at Yale University.[/endquote] – there’s absolutely no reason, at least that I’m aware of, to believe that that won’t happen for any pharmacological product.

[quote] In recent years, there has been increasing pressure on the FDA from consumers and others to speed up its regulatory review process to get new drugs to the market sooner, Ross said. [/endquote] – oh, gee, speeding up the approval process played a role in the quality of the review process? I wonder..

With all of that in mind, the picture now shows a confused mob facing a bunch of people responsible for the above, telling the mob to trust them. Those who still have a certain level of trust will obviously listen and move on. Those who don’t will sit back and watch.

Now add further confusion to the mix. How many times has the CDC went from announcing that “one should wear a mask”, to “one should wear 2 masks”, to “one should wear no mask”? If you haven’t, I suggest looking it up. It’s quite the show.

Let’s continue. Questions are asked. Some are partially answered, others are avoided completely – up to a point. But the answers don’t come alone, no. They’re accompanied by:
– “Hamburgers and fries if you get the shot!” – are you kidding me?!
– “Vaccination lottery!”
– “Free plane/entertainment tickets for the vaccinated!”
– etc.
While these may represent incentives to you, the people who lost trust in the complex see them as bribery. In their mind, this translates to “We don’t have the answers to the questions you’re asking, but here’s a cookie, be a good boy.”

I can go on, but I’ll conclude with something I linked in a comment around here – the most recent activity supporting this noble cause of saving human lives was the extermination of rescue dogs – so that people wouldn’t travel to pick them up. Australia. I’m not linking it again. Look it up if you don’t believe it happened.

With all of that in mind, you really expect people to roll over and lift their sleeves?

@Catalin You refer SV40, I presume, Actuallym epidemiological dasta show no correlation between cancer and polio vaccines,

@Catalin- Yes, some Republicans want stop FDA checking efficiency of the drugs, It is very stupid idea, as supplement market shows,
As for CDC changing its opinions, consider possibility that new facts come in, It is not a party line, thankfully

@Aarno Syvänen

“You refer SV40, I presume, Actuallym epidemiological dasta show no correlation between cancer and polio vaccines,”

That’s half right, research does point out no correlation can be established, but also doesn’t rule it out still. The CDC posted that the data was reassuring, and also provided this link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK221112/ to back it up. Following that link you reach the latest study on the matter. Here’s an extract from it:

[quote] However, because these epidemiologic studies are sufficiently flawed, the Institute of Medicine’s Immunization Safety Review Committee concluded that the evidence was inadequate to conclude whether or not the contaminated polio vaccine caused cancer. In light of the biological evidence supporting the theory that SV40-contamination of polio vaccines could contribute to human cancers, the committee recommends continued public health attention in the form of policy analysis, communication, and targeted biological research. [/endquote]

Anyway, it wasn’t the effects I was trying to point at with this example, rather the idea that it did happened. While the effects are still unclear.. let’s say, for the sake of argument, that SV40 had no serious effects on the vaccinated. Should another similar slip happen again, there’s no guarantee that it will be as harmless as this one might turn out to have been.

“Yes, some Republicans want stop FDA checking efficiency of the drugs, It is very stupid idea, as supplement market shows,”

I hope those Republicans don’t gather too significant support for that idea.. it is indeed an idiotic idea. If anything, the FDA needs a serious reality check into how they go about their reviews, as well as a regulator to spot and kill financial bias internally, as soon as possible.

“As for CDC changing its opinions, consider possibility that new facts come in, It is not a party line, thankfully”

I did consider it.. I mean, I mostly understand the CDC’s predicament on the flip-flop matter. They made a recommendation early on, got mixed feedback because 1. the nature of the illness was unknown and 2. not everyone followed their suggestion, even when mandated – this basically corrupted data from the feedback. Finally, pressure from the public caused their first flip, and also one of the first mistakes – you don’t take such decisions without reliable data.

Now, as you well pointed out, I can understand new facts coming in changing the equation, but lots of people don’t look further than what they hear. So when they’ll hear “do, don’t, do, do twice, maybe do, do, you have to do, stop doing if vaccinated, do if vaccinated”, well.. yeah, there will be some confusion. 😛

@Athaic

I’d like to annex the Opioid Crisis – which I surprisingly left out – to back up the shattered trust in pharmaceutical companies and government as well as regulators.

All of these examples are part of the context which paints the picture you see today. Institutional trust has been systematically shattered by corruption and incompetence. This is mainly why you’re seeing today what Orac describes in this post. The ones who rile up the people today couldn’t have done so without the ammunition provided by all these failures.

@Orac

Anyone who says fascists are left wing are ignorant of history and politics—and
utterly clueless to boot.

Keep telling yourself that.

goodreads.com/book/show/53097525-god-does-not-exist

You’re a college professor, right?
No wonder you have no clue.

You are indeed a beast. Will you admit it today or do you just want to proclaim all are beasts … (but me of course). Your lack of knowledge is the reason no one believes you. Your acceptance of more death and violence is why you are so very wrong and make the world worse. You make excuses to pardon killing and allow needless death.
You show a beastliness no doubt. Are you really that cornered?

If you had evidence to show that vaccinations caused significant harm than good, as a good human, you would have provided it long ago. That hasn’t happened and it’s pretty clear you are not a good person to speak about what happens with immunology or infection.

@1000 Links to a Furlong

I mention lack of evidence regarding long term safety and you ask me for evidence that it produces harm? I’m sorry but there’s no logic to that..

This isn’t a Court of Law where you’re innocent until proven guilty. There are millions of people being administered a serum which has its safety assessment phase scheduled to finish in 2023 for crying out loud – setting aside the fact that it’s the produces behind the provided data..

And once again.. I’m not here to convince, but to kill time as I’ve mentioned previously. Although, the information isn’t coming from me, so it’s not really me you’d even have to believe.

goodreads.com/book/show/53097525-god-does-not-exist

Snort!

Because it is never possible for a person’s views to change over time, I suppose.

It only took Mussolini until 1914 to change his mind and he formed the Fascio d’Azione Rivoluzionaria in 1915. A movement which gave its name to the phenomenon we now call fascism. Fascio d’Azione Rivoluzionaria was undeniably an aggressive Italian nationalist movement.

@Catalin IOM report was dated 2002. There is many good epidemiological studies after that.
As for CDC, it is new evidence coming in. You should not repeat same thing regardless of facts,

@Aarno Syvänen

“IOM report was dated 2002. There is many good epidemiological studies after that.”

If there have been, I wasn’t able to find any. What I linked above was the latest actual study on the matter I was able to find. What I’m about to link was much later (2014) and only explains why cases such as the SV40 are prone to remain unsettled, as this one did. (rough citation from the paper) – https://www.vanderbilt.edu/mhs/wp-content/uploads/sites/181/2014-article_Stowaways_Stark-and-Campbell.pdf

Remember that the scope of the example was to point out that misfortunes are possible. Whether they get solved or not is a different issue.

“As for CDC, it is new evidence coming in. You should not repeat same thing regardless of facts,”

I agree. It’s just.. they really need to do a better job when they elaborate on “why?”. I mean, at first they gave no answer to that, later on they it was “because it’s our recommendation”.. that really isn’t an answer. Sure, most people don’t have PhDs, but I’m sure they’d understand a comparison made between numbers in places where masks are a given and places where they’re not – at least some of them.. there’s still that trust problem.

@Scientism Dave You keep repeating same things. NSDAP did have a socialist wing, Röhm and SA. Hitler went for Big Business support, scrapped socialistic ideas and eventually killed Röhm (German Army did not like SA, either).
Thyssen wrote book named “I paid Hitler”, actually. Do you think a business magnate would support socialist ideas ?

Rachel Maddow reported tonight that 70% of the poison hotline calls in Mississippi are now due to people taking veterinary-formula ivermectin they have purchased at a feed store. No, I’m not making that up.

That is what you get for watching Tucker Carlson, I suppose.

The infection of stupidity is worldwide, I am afraid. I still have people tell me about how ivermectin was totally successful in curing COVID-19 in India. India abandoned ivermectin after it failed to stop the April-June 2021 wave, yet through some sort of time machine, it caused the number of cases to come crashing down, just like it did in January 2021.

You are not a horse. You are not a cow.

I’ll cop to having resorted to Clavamox, but that was only because cat bites only happen when my urgent-care is closed and I can’t get Augmentin. The dosing is straightforward.

But did you make an adventure and use the gaggy stick pill injector? Just to get a feel of what they may think about that?

No. You did not.

Ha! How could I have forgotten to mention Gwar? I’m not a big fan, though, which is why I didn’t mention them as some “Satanic bands” that I’ve liked a lot in the past.

I wasn’t ever a Gwar “fan”, and wouldn’t make any claims for the musical quality of their recordings. It’s just that when they played nearby to where i lived at the time, I thought the show would be worth checking out, as an experience to tell stories about later, or something. I did wind up reading a lot about them when David “Oderous” Brockie died a few years back, and discovered that he was a pretty cool guy. Gwar wasn’t (isn’t?) really a band so much as an ongoing conceptual/performance art project, and IMO best appreciated at that level, rather than, say, listening to their CDs.

Sure. I always thought that their shows were likely the main thing, not any of their recordings. I’d probably go to a Gwar show if if was easy and convenient too, just for the experience. I wouldn’t even be the oldest person there, I bet.

@sadmar

This is what happens when idiots pressure pharmacies to stop filling ivermectin
prescriptions.

Also it’s funny how…
– The articles linked only mention percentages, no actual numbers.

One article has a picture of human formulation tablets in an article that talks about
ivermecting paste for animals

By the way…VAERS reports also spiked after covid “vaccines” were released.

Um, yeah. Even if adverse events are rare (as they are for COVID vaccines), if you give a couple of hundred million doses within a few months, reports will soar, particularly when the CDC advertises VAERS with each dose in a way it never did before with routine vaccines AND institutes a system sending texts to remind people to report adverse events.🙄

Go to your local pharmacy and ask them if they can fill the ivermectin Rx that those FLCC whackos recommend.

Catalin:

I don’t think it warrants a visit at the Dr.

Worldwide there are about 4.5 million dead people who’d probably disagree with you if they weren’t, you know, dead.

Round these parts, it’s in fact not recommended that you go to your family doctor (GP) if you have COVID symptoms, but rather to get tested, quarantine, and if the test result is positive, call the health department’s hotline for advice.

That reply was specifically towards @coriolis’s sarcastic comparison. Of course you should see a Dr. if you’re unwell. So there was some context there.

Oh and, now you mention it, I’m still waiting to find out how many of those deaths were (and/or still are) because of medical misconduct.

Oh and, now you mention it, I’m still waiting to find out how many of those deaths were (and/or still are) because of medical misconduct.

Were you pondering this question here? There’s no “Catalin” in the STAT post.

No, I’ve been pondering on this question since late last year; he simply reminded me of it. While I do have some spare time to read some of the posts, at various points in a monthly interval of time it’s considerably limited, so I don’t get to be everywhere. Sorry 😛

I never reminded you of cat crap. And now they suspect you are a terrorist. Are you? It has been a long long time. I would look for you in Cullman, but I am not a stupid fuck. Also, still the leg thing.

P.S. If I have mistaken someone else for you then “sorry, eh?”

The number you mentioned was enough to trigger the reminder. And yes, I believe you do have me mistaken. I’m fairly new to the place. No worries 😛

What’s the terrorist business about?

“The number you mentioned was enough to trigger the reminder.”

Fuck. I’m going to need a smaller number.

I yearn for the days when my silly party representatives were just silly, and not violent. Jethro Q. Walrustitty wasn’t a bad person, just confused. Malcolm Brian Peter Telescope Adrian Umbrella Stand etc., really marked public tolerance for super crazy. Thankfully he didn’t win but the legacy is clear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Election_Night_Special

It is troubling that today’s so called patriots are anti-democratic, misinformed, and enabled to spread violent rhetoric without legal action. Agree that representatives who have a duty to public safety are infected with shameful ignorance and a need for attention.

So, some offer a shot in the arm, while others offer a shot in the head (and cheap ineffective pills).

Always good to know who the crazy one’s are.

Just recently found this blog, in my on line search for sane like minded folks in the midst of the Delta outbreak. I live in Springfield, MO which must have the highest percentage of anti vaxx, conspiracy theorists in the world. At least that is how it feels. Thanks to a Orac and the commenters here for helping save my sanity.

As for self proclaimed “vaccine police” Christopher Keys, while the Walmart visit got the most attention, he took his road show to Walgreens, and CVS stores also. Ran his mouth at the school board meeting. (They have since tightened up their previously liberal public comments guidelines.) Joined the protesters outside Mercy hospital unhappy they have mandated the vaccine for all employees. Tried to serve “papers” to the Cox hospital CEO for crimes against humanity; accosted him in the parking garage. Cox has not mandated the vaccine at this point, so not sure why Keys pestered him rather than his Mercy counterpart.

Thankfully Keys has left town, supposedly headed to Michigan.

Christopher Keys, who threatened the Wal-Mart pharmacists with execution, has quite an unsavory history of snake oil promotion.

Sports Illustrated ran a story in 2013 about his marketing bogus remedies sold by his sports “fitness” firm to athletes. The company was later banned from doing business in Alabama.

“Like the star of an infomercial flush with catchphrases — “Guys, this stuff is beyond real!” — Key also showed the players gallon jugs of “negatively charged” water, which he claimed would afford them better hydration because it adheres like a magnet to the body’s cells. Then he held up a canister containing a powder additive, to be mixed in water or juice, that he said had put muscle mass on a woman who was in a coma, and an oscillating “beam ray” lightbulb that could “knock out” the swine flu virus in 90 minutes. Finally, he pulled out a bottle of deer-antler spray (which also comes in pill form). Adrian Hubbard, a linebacker sitting on one of the queen beds, said he already had some, but Key explained its benefits for the others.”

“You’re familiar with HGH, correct?” asked Key, referring to human growth hormone. “It’s converted in the liver to IGF-1.” IGF-1, or -insulin-like growth factor, is a natural, anabolic hormone that stimulates muscle growth. “We have deer that we harvest out of New Zealand,” Key said. “Their antlers are the fastest-growing substance on planet Earth . . . because of the high concentration of IGF-1. We’ve been able to freeze dry that out, extract it, put it in a sublingual spray that you shake for 20 seconds and then spray three [times] under your tongue. . . . This stuff has been around for almost 1,000 years, this is stuff from the Chinese.”

“IGF-1 is also a substance banned by the NCAA and by every major pro league. Alleging that the NFL warned players away from S.W.A.T.S.’s spray because it’s a threat to “Big Pharma,” Key boasted that S.W.A.T.S. is “the most controversial supplement company on Earth.”

More here:

http://wbrc.com/story/23355069/swats-fitness-owners-charged-with-260-counts-of-deceptive-trade-practice-violations/

S.W.A.T.S. has also pushed a “concussion cap” that’s supposed to target inflammation, and which skeptics have referred to as simply a beanie.

Isn’t there something in the Nuremberg Code that applies to sleazy supplement pushers?

In other news…..**

Last night, Bill Maher revealed his Truth:
although he was vaccinated ( probably to comply with rules so he could do his show in a studio, not his backyard) , he both rejects boosters and claims that people being obese is the actual culprit and that better diets would change outcomes.( video: Hill Reporter.com former congressman, Max Rose, shuts down Maher’s anti-vax rant) . Maher implies that he has no risks ( he’s 65! ) ; Rose remarks, ” That’s crazy man!”. The clip is short but Rose continued accurately.

** because I know how Orac just loves Bill Maher

Everyone vaccinated for covid will die

I suppose this is not a lie, unless the vaccine makes people immortal and I’m not so sure one would really want that, at least not after reading Gullivers travels.

Murder advocate @Catalin writes:

“I’m not admitting to anything.”

Previously, of course, she wrote:

“Yes, there will be killing.”

Just keeping track of the changing story.

Forgive me, but nothing changed. Admitting refers to a confession on truth. A personal opinion on what one sees coming simply doesn’t fall under the definition of admitting. I’ll admit I was wrong should it not get there, or I’ll admit I was right otherwise. Until then, I like to call it an educated guess.

For further reference, I’m a “he”. Different part of the world.

Admitting that vaccination will remain popular among normal people unless terrorists start killing people is still an admission. I’m sorry that you didn’t realize what you were saying, but you still said it. Live with your mistake, and learn from it.

@Tracking

I feel you’re putting words in my mouth. Could you please quote me on the part that says or implies “that vaccination will remain popular among normal people”, under any circumstance?

I hate to do this, and I’m familiar with Orac’s policy on grammar comments, but this is simply an attack I won’t leave unsettled.

Advocating implies defending and/or supporting.

At the risk of repeating myself, opinionating on a subject doesn’t equate to supporting or defending what the subject is about. My initial comment is meant to represent my personal understanding of an action/reaction case based on the model of human society and its behavioral progress over time. It doesn’t mean I’m either for or against it.

That said, I frankly don’t care if we do get to that point. I’m certainly not going to start a killing spree over the subject, though I will defend myself by any means necessary should it come to it.

“Advocating implies defending and/or supporting.”

Posting that look out, yes indeed there will be killing when the “beasts” are “cornered” lends the distinct impression that one condones extreme violence even if not advocating it.

“I’m certainly not going to start a killing spree over the subject, though I will defend myself by any means necessary should it come to it.”

This is right out of the Mike Adams playbook. He’s strongly intimated that it would be fine and dandy to open fire on federal agents who supposedly are going to show up at your home to forcibly inject you with Toxic Vaccines, which increases the possibility that nutcases will use weapons against civilians going door to door to encourage immunization.

If you continually harp on the inevitability of violence, you’re helping to bring it about.

This is right out of the Mike Adams playbook.

There are several levels of irony about this.

@Dangerous Bacon

“Posting that look out, yes indeed there will be killing when the “beasts” are “cornered” lends the distinct impression that one condones extreme violence even if not advocating it.”

That is indeed so, as far as condoning (for clarification: reluctant acceptance) goes. I’d be lying to myself if I were to expect anything more from this species. We’re just not past the point of our own egos, generally speaking. While we like to think of ourselves as explorers who faced their fear of the unknown, the ones that actually achieved that feat are very few – most of us still won’t go that extra mile, relying on pioneers and visionaries to lead us through the unknown. Now, one problem with that arises when the trust in those we chose to lead fades away, and we’re left facing that unknown. It’s a recipe for chaos.

“This is right out of the Mike Adams playbook. He’s strongly intimated that it would be fine and dandy to open fire on federal agents who supposedly are going to show up at your home to forcibly inject you with Toxic Vaccines, which increases the possibility that nutcases will use weapons against civilians going door to door to encourage immunization.”

I don’t know who Mike Adams is, sorry. But that scenario isn’t all without merit. Remember that green cards were vehemently denied at first, only to now be gaining popularity around the globe. The same logic could apply to vaccine mandates. Should they be mandated, while they might not come to your door to forcibly inject you, they will instead either fine or jail you, depending on how the mandates look – and, of course, IF they become a reality. So how do you expect people who outright refuse the vaccine to react faced with that prospect?

“If you continually harp on the inevitability of violence, you’re helping to bring it about.”

Continually? Funny how 1 reply on a blog followed by explanations called on by subsequent inquiries counts as continually. I read a blog post, I reacted, I got asked questions, I answered. Or maybe I’m trying to point out what I think is leading to this violence I see happening, subconsciously hoping that the right people get the message and adjust their ways. Who knows.

@coriolis

Dude.. you just made my day. I’ve been so caught up in work lately that I wasn’t aware of this movie coming up. Added to the list. Really looking forward to it. Thanks so much! 🙂

Also, apologies for above. I reread it and realized I had you confused with @prl – him being the one that mentioned the number which triggered my reminder. In my defense, the layout of this comment section makes it rather difficult to follow after a number of comments is reached, especially late at night. 😛

@Catalin So you are not against civil war, either ? Read history of any civil war, and return after that.

@Aarno Syvänen

I think I can summarize the gist of all of them in a simple sentence: everyone’s a target.

Considering my state of body, I’d have to be suicidal to wish for civil war, which I can assure you I’m not.

I do however accept it as a possibility – sometimes, accepting that the worst might happen helps one be prepared. 🙂

LOL

Is this some Mike Adams fan club?
You guys must be the most loyal listeners.

Anyway based on the post I’ve seen so far in the comments it turns out that ~60% of you who took pfizer jab might be murderers.

“Pfizer Shot Just 39% Effective Against Delta Infection, But Largely Prevents Severe Illness, Israel Study Suggests”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/roberthart/2021/07/23/pfizer-shot-just-39-effective-against-delta-infection-but-largely-prevents-severe-illness-israel-study-suggests/?sh=10535a39584f

You likely murdered both vaccinated and unvaccinated…

Oh dear. You think that “preventing severe illness” is murder. I’ve heard some stupid things before (Catalin is here) but this is really record-breaking stuff.

“Dave” does a good line in far-right talking points.

As I understand it, the convoluted “logic” about this one is that if you get vaccinated, but get a break through infection that results in you spreading that infection to an unvaccinated individual, you are personally responsible for the unvaccinated person dying. However, if you remain unvaccinated and catch SARS-CoV-2, you can spread it to as many people as you like, because COVID-19 is a fake disease, is harmless to people who were not going to die soon anyways, or is easily cured by ivermectin and HQC or some such wibble.

@Tracking

Oh dear. You think that “preventing severe illness” is murder.

Oh dear, you’re an idiot.

I never wrote that.

You people claim that if someone doesn’t get the jab and spreads it to others they are murderers.

I’m pointing out that you (covid vaccine believers) can spread delta variant just as efficiently, and thus by your own logic are murderers.

@coriolis

Hi, Dave. I’m doing this now.

Ummmm…you’re doing what exactly?

You people claim that if someone doesn’t get the jab and spreads it to others they are murderers.

I’m pointing out that you (covid vaccine believers) can spread delta variant just as efficiently

Um, no.
(let’s slide aside the “as efficiently” for now. vaccinated people may be contagious, but for a shorter time)

If I take the road with a car with faulty brakes, I know it, and I kill someone because I could no brake in time, I’m a murderer.
If I take the same car after having done that I could to fix the brakes, and kill someone, I’m at worst guilty of involuntary manslaughter.
If, unforeseen by both the car manufacturer and myself, a shift in weather made the road extra-slippery, and thus my usually-working brakes were not up to the task, a fair judge would accept that things were out of my control.

@Athaic

LOL

You’re obviously not a lawyer, so don’t try to pretend to be one.

Just for fun…if you take your car to a mechanic that is know to do a good job only ~39% of the time…what is that. lol

Looking ahead to antivaxers committing violent acts and having their attorneys try to use the “we’re just beasts” defense.

Should work just as well as claiming you’re a sovereign citizen and that courts don’t have jurisdiction over you.

“their attorneys try to use the “we’re just beasts” defense”

To assert their non-humanity obviates trials and nearly all due process. The legal system can rapidly proceed to sentencing. Fortunately for them, the legal systems in most democratic countries are not so callous.

The world is on the verge of losing a Brave Maverick Scientist.

Didier Raoult will be forced out of his hospital position soon, ostensibly because of age. But we know better – it’s the anti-HCQ stooges of Big Pharma that are responsible.

Raoult’s allies are fighting a rearguard battle in his defense.

“The hashtag #TouchePasARaoult (don’t touch Raoult) was trending on Twitter in France on Thursday morning, with supporters fiercely defending the scientist, who has gained cult status on some corners of the internet since the pandemic began.”

“Florian Philippot, a far-right politician and former campaign director for Marine Le Pen, has launched a petition in support of Raoult. Philippot has recently built a large following by opposing France’s health pass scheme.”

http://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/19/french-scientist-who-pushed-unproven-covid-drug-hydroxychloroquine-may-be-forced-from-post?fbclid=IwAR21zJENz3PXpa2U14np3HXJdn2SypZYdN3J90Uapf7r19iYMq5pURA34-s

Catalin welcome to the most open minded weblog, where you ideas and thoughts are respected, of course that is until you disagree with them. Then they will call you a ‘spawn of satin” and no one that post here puts forward any solutions other than to complain or voice “support” for the editor.

“The ongoing debate over the medical necessity and constitutionality of mask and vaccine mandates has brought out the authoritarian impulses in no small number of Americans. Pundits describe those with serious concerns about vaccines as “evil” and “malicious.” Actor and former California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger notoriously said “screw your freedoms” in response to people opposing mask mandates. Actor and activist George Takei is among many on social media who have called for the unvaccinated to be denied health care; or worse. Talk show host James Corden joked that unvaccinated people should be punched in the face. One Twitter user (who later deleted his account) actually said that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention should tell people to “get the shot or get shot.” Those who refuse, he tweeted, should be lined up in front of a trench and executed by a firing squad.”
A Google search for “Should the unvaccinated receive health care?” pulls up dozens of links to editorials arguing against providing care. One author, Trish Zornio, explicitly uses limited resources as justification for denying care to those whose choices strain the system when “resources become scarce.” “Choices have consequences,” she wrote.”

‘unvaccinated executed by a firing squad’ lots of compassion there.

if the shot does not prevent you from getting covid and doesn’t prevent you from spreading it, it is a pretty big hill to climb to claim you need it.

as takei suggested, we stop providing health care to obese people, hiv, std’s,heavy drinkers, drug users etc. they are a drain on health care because of their life style choices and effect/affect my health care, because I wear a mask and have the jab, eat right and work out, I should be first in line for health care. I am just doing the math.

https://townhall.com/columnists/laurahollis/2021/08/19/covid-exposes-the-ugly-side-of-singlepayer-health-care-n2594394

Hey Eddy, do you have any examples of public health professionals or health care providers, or health insurance companies saying that the unvaccinated should be denied health care?

No?

Because that goes against the ethical standards of their profession?

I know front like health care workers who have been through the wringer with COVID. And they’re very upset at all the people choosing to not get vaccinated. But they’re still providing everyone the same standard of care, because that is their job.

(And now I have the Moody Blues “Knights in White Satin” stuck in my head.)

“Hey Eddy, do you have any examples of public health professionals or health care providers, or health insurance companies saying that the unvaccinated should be denied health care?”

I hope you’ll also vehemently oppose any future possible decision along those lines, should it happen. Voices with power can lead to some mind boggling changes..

Thanks for the.. “warm” welcome 😀

I guess I’ll try my best not to upset anyone.. too much 😛

As for the article.. I too am worried by a lot of the things I hear from around there. Even if I’m not from the USA, the effects of cultural export are still felt, granted, with a slight delay.

“Violent rhetoric of the antivaccine movement. In the age of COVID-19, it’s gotten much worse, and, increasingly, there has been actual violence. Someone’s going be killed, I fear.|

We have the guy who MISSED the 911 hijackers, helped BUSH plan the invasion of Afghanistan, adding to the violent rhetoric. In other words one of the guys who help start this mess.

Retired four-star Air Force General Michael Hayden, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) and National Security Agency (NSA)

“Can we send the MAGA wearing unvaxxed to Afghanistan, no use sending that plane back empty?” said one Twitter user.

“Good idea,” Hayden responded.

but I guess it depends on which side of the argument you sit on, if it qualifies as violent rhetoric

Boy oh boy you people are desperate to be seen as a victim, aren’t you? No one is going to ship your sorry keister to Afghanistan; stupid, cheap, Chinese-made hat or no (America first, right?)

People are standing outside of health care buildings and attacking staff. Other nutballs brought loaded weapons of war into state capitols. You really want to be on their side? You really don’t see the difference?

By the way, I bet you were cheering when Bush sent me in one of those planes carrying one of those weapons. Think we’re messing up the pullout? Great. Your turn. You can put your life on the line this time. Take your cheap hat.

How quickly you forgot about James Hodgkinson and Steve Scalise

James Hodgkinson the shooter, was a Bernie supporter

Bernie Sanders Campaign Staffer
“The only thing that works, the only thing that fascist’s understand is violence. So, the only way you can confront them IS WITH VIOLENCE.”

Hodgkinson
“Trump is a Traitor. Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It’s Time to Destroy Trump & Co.” above his repost of a Change.org petition demanding “the legal removal” of Trump and Vice President Mike Pence for “treason”. He belonged to numerous political Facebook groups, including those named “Terminate the Republican Party”, “The Road To Hell Is Paved With Republicans”, and “Donald Trump is not my President.

or the shooting that occurred at the Family Research Council, by Floyd Corkings who told the FBI “he wanted to kill anti-gay targets and went to the law center’s website for ideas”, “kill as many as possible and smear the Chick-Fil-A sandwiches in victims’ faces, and kill the guard.” website would be the Southern Poverty Law center.

I could make this list longer

People with loaded weapons in a state capitol, was anyone shot or killed?
the only exception would be an unarmed white female who was also a veteran, who was shot by police officer.

As I said it all depends on what side of the argument you sit on.

On a side note my husband went to Iraq 3 different times and probably made it safe for you to land, when you went, H-

People with loaded weapons in a state capitol, was anyone shot or killed?
the only exception would be an unarmed white female who was also a veteran, who was shot by police officer.

(sigh) A police officer died from wounds received there. Not with a gun, just some local blunt implement.

According to the recent testimony sessions of the other officers on guard this day, they did fear for their life.
Not the usual “that lone guy was tall and intimidating and smelling of roofer”, but much more serious “a crowd of rioters was after us, yelling threats”.

Look, can we agree that armed thugs are no good, no matter which side they are on?

“Scientism” “Dave”

“Oh dear, you’re an idiot.

I never wrote that.”

Oops.. I just now reviewed all your material here. Didn’t realize you were a Poe https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law. It’s a mark of your skill, I suppose that I mistook you for someone sincerely writing what you did, though. Tell you what. To make up for my mistake, I’ll donate some money to https://vaccinateyourfamily.org in your honor.

All the best.

For Catalin because I hear/see the argument over the causes of the Civil War all the time. These are the words of the seceding states, so you can see for yourself that the post-war arguments of the Daughters of the Confederacy were an attempt to whitewash the Southern motives for secession.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

see also Alexander Stephens (VP of the Confederacy)

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/cornerstone-speech

I’m not sure how much off-topic we’re allowed to go down here, but I’ll test my luck. 😛

It was a interesting read, one that I admit I hadn’t routed until now. It raised further questions which, as much as I’ve tried to gather context for in order to answer, I wasn’t able to.

Judging by actions, it’s clear that abolitionism isn’t what sparked the war, but rather slavery as a cultural and economical construct to be protected from being abolished, since the first blow belonged to the Confederates. After all, it’s the winner which gets to write history.

However, looking at it in detail, attempting judgement by intent.. if Anderson hadn’t moved his garrison (for defensive purposes) who would have struck first? Would it have been the Union in the name of abolitionism or, as it was, the Cons in the name of protecting what was then though of as a right? Or better yet, would the Union have attacked at all if the Cons would’ve simply seen to their own lives? In other words, was the actual spark (Anderson’s move) nothing but a misunderstanding?

Another thing I can’t clarify (for myself) is which aspect of the issue weighed more: political influence, cultural or economical? What was it exactly that drove them to strike? Fear of losing political influence? Probably not, since Stephen’s speech is riddles with independence references. Fear of switching to a different way of life, forfeiting their sovereign status? Fear of losing the economical advantage slavery brought them? Something else?

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