Dr. Vinay Prasad has made a stir on social media again, and it’s made me look back to the past. Longtime readers might remember a couple of shticks that I used to use fairly frequently back in the early days of the blog. The first was known as the Hitler Zombie. From his first appearance 16 years ago, Hitler Zombie posts quickly evolved to be written as a series of faux horror stories featuring the rotting corpse of Hitler shambling around looking for brains to eat. When the zombie found a suitable brain to quench his hunger, the victim would soon end up spouting really dumb Nazi or Holocaust analogies. Over the years, the Hitler Zombie’s meals included the brains of Erik Rush, Harry Belafonte, James Dobson, D. James Kennedy, Michael Kay (over baseball, yet!), Adolph Mongo (a local Detroit political activist), Alan Stang, Richard Dawkins, Ben Stein, and many others prone to likening their opponents to Hitler and the Nazis and their ideas to the Holocaust. After a while, quite honestly, I ran out of ideas—there are, after all, only so many variations on the concept of a zombie eating people’s brains and causing them to spew nonsense before repetition sets in—and retired the monster. In retrospect, the device was never really nearly as funny or clever as I thought it was at the time, anyway, although I do think the one about baseball was pretty amusing.
The second shtick was based on the old Looney Tunes cartoon where Sylvester Jr. would put a paper bag over his head in embarrassment because of something his father did. Usually deployed this device when a fellow physician (particularly a fellow surgeon) said something really dumb, like promoting creationism or antivaccine nonsense. Let’s just say that recently Dr. Vinay Prasad seriously tempted me to resurrect both shticks for his article, How Democracy Ends: COVID19 policy shows a (potential) path to the end of America. I seriously thought about resurrecting the monster, penning a full-on Hitler Zombie story for it, and then concluding with my putting a paper bag over my head in embarrassment at Dr. Prasad’s historical ignorance and his having gone full Godwin over COVID-19 public health interventions. Dr. Prasad’s basic thesis? He’s “warning” that COVID-19 public health interventions could provide a pathway for a US President to end democracy, and he invokes Hitler and the history of Nazi Germany to do it.
I must say, I’ve long seen that Dr. Prasad was heading down this dark path to becoming a future Fox News pundit, but I honestly didn’t expect him to get there this soon. (I thought it would be the end of the year at least.) In any event, Dr. Jen Gunter made a striking description:
Let’s dig in, shall we? You’ll soon see what Dr. Gunter is talking about with respect to Dr. Prasad’s blather:
COVID19 policy shows a (potential) path to the end of America
The pandemic events of 2020-2021 outline a potential pathway for a future democratically elected President of the United States to systematically end democracy. The course of events leading to this outcome need not be a repeat of the direct assault on the Capitol, but a distortion of risk of illness as a justification for military force and suspension of democratic norms.
As Dr. Gunter said, 700,000 dead (and still counting in just the US alone) is a “distortion of risk? It’s already been three weeks since we passed the grim figure of one in 500 Americans dead due to COVID-19. That’s more fatalities (in a much shorter period of time) than World War I, World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam war combined. It’s surpassed the death toll of the previous largest pandemic, the Influenza Pandemic of 1918. But, hey, what’s a few hundred thousand deaths among friends?
Dr. Prasad then goes on to write a dystopian bit of disaster porn. Imagining a future bad flu season in which double the usual number of deaths occur (say, 80,000), he goes on to imagine a future President using that as a pretext to eliminate democracy in the US, justifying it with “lessons learned” from our current response to COVID-19:
Inevitably some location(s) in the country will experience a surge in cases. Television news will show overworked hospital workers, and report that Intensive Care Unit beds have nearly run out– of course, ICU’s often operate near capacity, so this finding alone may not be that noteworthy, but in our attention economy, it may be sensationalized. Some afflicted individuals will be young children– typical for the flu, and these anecdotes will surely be emotionally salient. A video of a young boy or girl on life support machines may be used to show how dire things are. These events will then serve as an opportunity for a strong federal response.
A future US president may declare that the crisis in the region from influenza is unprecedented. Too many children are dying, and hospitals are near capacity. Citing the lessons of COVID19—that if anything we acted too late—the President may call upon the governor to issue a shelter in place warning. A week later, citing a continued rise in case, and “non-compliance” of the local people, the President could order the national guard or army troops in to secure the region. Notably, military force was applied in Australia during COVID19.
The article cited by Dr. Prasad notes that unarmed military troops were deployed to help local police to enforce a lockdown in Sydney, a concerning development perhaps and one that might have gone one step too far but not evidence that “military force was applied,” a description that implies that violence was used by the military to control the populace. Also:
Dr. Prasad further goes on to imagine a future President shutting down social media and saying that elections can’t be held because of safety concerns, with the strong implication that it would likely be the fault of Democrats and the Left because:
During the COVID19 pandemic, some of the most ardent calls for strong restrictions came from members of the political left. If a future president is on the political right; this would serve as a natural opportunity to remind the public that strong tactics were precisely what the other side demanded more of during COVID19. Life and safety, particularly that of children, is of paramount importance, and strong lockdowns must ensue. In many regions across the world, one political party preferred stronger countermeasures to COVID19, in all those nations, the opposing party that has the advantage for misusing force in the future.
See what I mean? Sure, it might be a right-wing takeover, but by Dr. Prasad’s argument, if democracy dies it will have been pesky public health-minded lefties who showed a future autocrat the way. Dr. Prasad’s “logic,” such as it is, is so risibly blind to the actual political realities of the age we’re living in as to deserve nothing but ridicule and contempt. One can’t help but wonder where the examples of deaths of democratic governments that occurred due to the example of restrictions used to control an epidemic of a deadly disease can be found. One also can’t help but notice the lack of mention of the far more pressing threats to American democracy in 2021, such as partisan gerrymandering, the voter suppression tactics, and the undermining of confidence in any election’s result that doesn’t elect Republicans. Those are what keep me up at night worrying, not the possibility that some future President might use a bad influenza year as a pretext to erode democratic protections and thereby eventually take total power. Moreover, these much more pressing threats to American democracy have been going on for decades, with an acceleration since Donald Trump became President and a particular effort to undermine confidence in elections since Trump lost reelection in 2020.
You might be wondering: Where’s the Godwin? Here it comes:
When democratically elected systems transform into totalitarian regimes, the transition is subtle, stepwise, and involves a combination of pre-planned as well as serendipitous events. Indeed, this was the case with Germany in the years 1929-1939, where Hitler was given a chance at governing, the president subsequently died, a key general resigned after a scandal and the pathway to the Fuhrer was inevitable.
Yes, you just knew that Dr. Prasad wouldn’t be able to resist, and it’s clear that the Hitler Zombie had more than just a nibble of his brain. (Check his head for bite marks!)
Let’s unpack this. First, the timeline is all wrong. Adolf Hitler worked to become the absolute ruler of Germany going back to before the Beer Hall Putsch, his failed coup d’état, in 1923. After his brief and relatively cushy imprisonment (brief because of popular support for his politics, and, also, because several of the judges for his case were ardent Nazis), Hitler turned to primarily legal means to take power. Here, Dr. Prasad is partially correct in a way that is nonetheless misleading. Arguably, were it not for the stock market crash of 1929 and the ensuing Great Depression, which hit Germany hard, Hitler would never have assumed power, as the Nazis were a party in decline, having achieved only 12 seats in the Reichstag in the 1928 elections. A combination of economic disruption, plus the Nazi Party’s scapegoating of Jews and a campaign of street violence against Party enemies by the SA (a.k.a. the Brownshirts) led to the Nazis doing much better in the 1930 federal elections, but the Communist Party also did well, with the two parties between them holding 40% of the seats. After the 1932 elections, the Nazi Party became the largest party in the Reichstag but still lacked an out-and-out majority.
It’s also true that President Paul von Hindenburg did finally give in and appoint Hitler as Chancellor in January 1933, with the hope that the members of other conservative parties in his cabinet, including his Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen, would “civilize” and contain him, but make no mistake. From the very day he became Chancellor, Hitler worked to become dictator, and Hindenburg unwittingly helped him by signing the Reichstag Fire decree, which suspended a number of civil liberties and, soon after, the Enabling Act of 1933, which granted Hitler’s government emergency powers free from parliamentary consent. (One notes that Nazi paramilitary encircled the Reichstag, as it voted on the Act.) Exercising those powers, which were granted for four years, Hitler rapidly went about seizing the powers usually exercised by the states and eliminating all non-Nazi political parties.
By 1934, the only check left on Hitler’s power was Hindenburg, because the President could fire the Chancellor, but Hindenburg was old and in failing health. Ironically, in the summer of 1934, pressure was growing on Hitler to do something about the Brownshirts and their continued violence, as they were viewed as competitors to the German Army. The result was the Night of the Long Knives, a bloody purge of SA co-founder Ernst Röhm and anyone considered a danger to Hitler. The purge won the loyalty of the German military, which supported Hitler after the death of Hindenburg on August 2, 1934 when he persuaded the Reichstag to combine the positions of Chancellor and President and became Führer. In other words, by 1939, the period listed in Dr. Prasad’s analogy, Hitler had been absolute ruler for five years and was on the verge of invading Poland and launching World War II. In any event, contrary to what Dr. Prasad claims, the pathway to Hitler’s becoming the Führer was never inevitable, even right up to the death of Hindenburg.
You might think I’m nitpicking, and certainly Dr. Prasad’s numerous defenders have been busy denying that he had compared a potential loss of democracy in the US due to COVID-19 to the Holocaust. Here’s the problem, though. Look at his timeline and then see, for example:
And:
Exactly. The ones whose activities are most worrisome for eroding democracy and ushering in a fascist regime are not the ones being blamed for it by Dr. Prasad. Quelle surprise.
It’s also rather odd how Dr. Prasad ignores the antisemitism inherent in Nazi ideology. The Nazi regime and the Holocaust were inextricably linked, making Dr. Prasad’s denial that he was likening COVID-19 mitigation to the Holocaust:
And, of course, every critic must be lying about Dr. Prasad:
As a result of his social media activity, Dr. Prasad also seems to have attracted the attention of what appears to be his boss, and not in a good way:
While he ignores good advice:
Indeed.
Personally, I’m not a big fan of tagging Dr. Prasad’s employer, having had antivaxxers deploy that tactic against me by antivaxxers and quacks on many occasions. That’s why I didn’t do it. Also, tagging his employer facilitates a play straight out of the COVID-19 contrarian grifter playbook, claiming victimhood in order to raise one’s status. I’d be willing to bet that Dr. Prasad wants to be sanctioned somehow by his employer UCSF or, at the very least, if it happens won’t be too upset about it privately even as he rails loudly about it publicly. Then he can claim to have been “canceled” and gain access to even bigger and more lucrative right wing audiences:
Even so, Dr. Prasad’s counterarguments are disingenuous in the extreme, and he was not being misinterpreted. If his intentions really were as he represented them above, then he could just as easily have chosen other examples of democracies that devolved into authoritarian regimes other than Nazi Germany.
But noooooo.
Dr. Prasad consciously chose the example of Nazi Germany, no matter how inappropriate it was to his attempt to fear monger about a “future scenario” in which a future President seizes power based on the example of COVID-19 responses. Either he did it just to be inflammatory, in which case he’s dishonest, or he because he believes it to be an accurate historical comparison, in which case he’s an ignoramus of history. Indeed, by using such an example, Dr. Prasad is engaging in Holocaust denial, as misappropriating the Holocaust or the Nazi regime for such naked political purposes is, as I have argued, a form of Holocaust denial, or at least minimization.
Dr. Prasad and I have had our disagreements before, beginning with his expressions of utter contempt for debunking alternative medicine. More recently, this guru of evidence-based oncology and medicine, who has in the past correctly called out weak clinical science, has praised execrable dumpster diving in the VAERS database not unlike what antivaxxers used to do before the pandemic as a “bombshell” study from a “dream team.” Of late, although not antivaccine, he’s been increasingly what we refer to as a “COVID-19 contrarian,” a physician or scientist who engages in increasingly unscientific takes on the public health response to COVID-19 that aren’t explicitly antimask and antivaccine but have the effect of lending aid and comfort, in terms of apparent science, to antimaskers and antivaxxers. Dr. Prasad had been drifting more and more towards right wing COVID-19 minimization, but I really never predicted that he’d fall so far so quickly. It’s depressing.
Maybe I should have really resurrected the Hitler Zombie and that old Looney Tunes inspired schtick about putting a paper bag over my head in shame for my profession.
165 replies on “Dr. Vinay Prasad goes full Godwin over COVID-19 public health measures”
He totally ignores that we have a “vaccine!”
Note that he posted this on Substrack rather than on MedPage, which suggests to me he may have known he was going too far.
If it was ignorance, maybe he would look at the criticism, admit error, and fix it. Harder to do when you blocked most people, but he certainly saw some of the criticism. He did not. He doubled down.
Oh, and as you have pointed out in the past, there’s nothing new about this type of prediction. He’s taking ideas that anti-vaccine activists have used in the past.
This whole idea came out of “V for Vendetta.” But the people spouting these conspiracy theories probably don’t want to be so easily laughed off, so they pretend they got their ideas from history and not Hollywood apocalypse movies from earlier this century.
Is Prasad some sort of immature man-child who never grew up and was never told “No.” and “You are wrong, Vinay.” when he was younger so he would learn to deal with it instead of being a narcissistic creep oozing arrogant ignorance?
I’ve known scientists like him and that is exactly what they are and it isn’t pretty what with all the childish tantrums and angry finger pointing when they are mildly told they are stupendously wrong.
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Orac quotes Paul Lantos MD MSGIS, who said in his tweet,
“Here’s a clinical pearl for all the med students:
If you don’t want to be mistaken for comparing our pandemic response to the rise of Hitler, then don’t compare our pandemic response to the rise of Hitler.”
.
Exactly.
QED on my opening premise as this advise is usually reserved and needed only for an oblivious child.
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This guy is some sort of rising star?
Seems more like a pebble sized meteorite with delusions of grandeur.
Before the pandemic, he was definitely a rising star in oncology, widely published and increasingly influential in his writings about evidence-based oncology and the deficiencies in the science of cancer clinical trials. Since the pandemic, I’m not sure that he’s a rising star academically any more, but he’s certainly a rising star in the ecosystem of COVID-19 minimizing physicians, scientists, and academics who give a patina of seeming scientific credibility to resisters to public health mandates.
advise– shb “advice”(really need an edit feature for us morons…)
I love Dr. Jen anyway but a shout out for “surgeon general of Qanon.”
The article was ridiculous, that’s true.
I think we do ourselves a disservice, however, in forgetting that in October and November of 2020, that there was a real possibility that Trump, who trailed in polls, would try to postpone the election, purportedly because of the dangers of in person voting. It is not unreasonable to imagine some future president actually attempting what Trump suggested.
Now the answer isn’t to do away with public health measures, but to make voting from home more convenient for everybody. But just because the author of this article gets the solution wrong, that doesn’t mean that we should pretend that the problem he notes is imaginary.
This is a rather silly defense, given that it was generally the same people who are public health-conscious who most promoted mail-in voting and most pushed back against BS reasons to “postpone” in-person voting.
Also, if a pandemic as huge as COVID-19 didn’t stop the election, it’s really a stretch to imagine that a future President could use the pretext of a bad flu season to stop an election.
I don’t disagree. I suppose I wasn’t unclear in my comment. I’m not defending Prasad’s article. It was stupid and your critique is more than justified.
And I am aware and don’t dispute that it was those who play(ed) down the pandemic who simultaneously suggested abusing authority during the crisis for political ends.
But abuse of powers during a pandemic doesn’t require consistency on the part of bad faith actors.
My point and my only point in supplement to your post is that we should not be unconcerned with the ways in which an authoritarian administration would try to use a future pandemic to undermine democracy. And with that in mind, vote-by mail and other tools that promote access to democracy should be strengthened as a bulwark in democracy’s defense.
You’re right that it was those who were most public health conscious who promoted mail-in voting. I’m only saying that they (we) should continue to do so and not just for the sake of public health but for the health of American democracy too.
Pass the John Lewis Act.
Edit:
I meant to say that “I wasn’t clear” or that “I was unclear” but instead combined the phrases to say that “I wasn’t unclear.”
Ignore my double negative. I wasn’t clear.
Clear?
I completely agree we should worry about manipulation of voting and work to correct that. Dr. Prasad’s article had nothing to do with it. Did not mention it. Was not concerned about it. His only concern about elections was that a president acting to preserve public health will delay them. If anything, his article would distract and deflect from this more real problem.
So yes, the problem he notes is completely imaginary.
The risks to our democracy are elsewhere.
“His only concern about elections was that a president acting to preserve public health will delay them.”
And is it so off topic to worry that a president pretending to act to preserve public health may try to delay an election in an attempt to preserve executive office?
I’m on your side, here. I think that Prasad’s article was stupid. I don’t think it’s a bad idea to anticipate attacks on democracy that employ some future crisis (including a pandemic) as an excuse for delaying, manipulating, or even just ignoring an election. And I don’t think it’s a bad idea to expand policies that strengthen democracy against such.
So, maybe I gave more credit to Prasad in suggesting that his diagnosis was good even if his prescription was completely wrong. Maybe what I should have said was that the theme (in the broadest sense) of this article was worth some thought even if the specifics of the problems he identified were wrong and his suggestions were even more so.
But I maintain that the use of a crisis to claim undemocratic emergency powers is not an idle concern and strengthening institutions of democracy (rather than weakening public health initiatives) should be a priority.
We should pass the John Lewis Act into law. That would be a good start.
The problem is Prasad’s slippery slope fallacy: that current anti-COVID measures create a necessary precedent for a future fascist takeover.
First of all, that slope isn’t all that greased. “Citing the lessons of COVID19 the President may call upon the governor to issue a shelter in place warning.” For a bad flu season? Methinks the governors would only comply if they were already beholden to some cult of personality authoritarianism. But still, maybe, some might comply. But to go from that to “A week later, citing a continued rise in case, and ‘non-compliance’ of the local people, the President could order the national guard or army troops in to secure the region.” Again, the only way this would fly would be if el Presidente had already achieved some sort of dictatorial hegemeny.
Second, and more to the point, fascists have never needed actual precedents, or actual reasons to initiate takeover attempts. They just make stuff up, and spread the Big Lies via their propaganda channels. If Prasad knew anything about European history, he’d know that, you know, that was how Hitler operated.
I agree Jun Gunter nailed it with “audition to be the Surgeon General of QAnon.” But not just because of the absence of empathy. Ignorance of public health. bad faith arguments. expendable kids, and antisemitism. But also because of the radical elevation of outre fantasy over material reality.
Trump briefly floated the the idea of delaying the 2020 election (something Presidents don’t have the power to do) because of alleged fears about mail-in voting fraud – not because of dangers of in-person voting.
As for the feeble attempted Godwin by one of our resident trolls, attempting to equate any potential infringement of rights with the Nazi regime is, as has been emphasized on many occasions, not only ludicrous but a huge insult to the memory of Holocaust victims.
The exact quote was, “Delay the Election until people can properly, securely and safely vote???”
The “safely” here shows that Trump, while certainly disingenuous, was using the concern over the safety of in-person voting (in addition to the nonexistent fraud) as a pretense to suggesting an election delay.
I’m not defending the Godwin here. But we can be doing more to prevent a more competent would-be autocrat (Tom Cotton? Maybe?) from being more successful at doing what Trump tried to do. And abuse of national crises toward such ends is not something we should ignore.
This is where you went wrong. Trump suggested delaying the election because his conspiracy theory that mail-in voting would result in fraud. Despite the fact that several states have had full mail-in voting for decades.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53597975
The exact quote was, “Delay the Election until people can properly, securely and safely vote???”
The “safely” here shows that Trump, while certainly disingenuous, was using the concern over the safety of in-person voting (in addition to the nonexistent fraud) as a pretense to suggesting an election delay.
You might have an argument if Trump had ever shown himself to have concern over the safety of the American people during the COVID-19 pandemic. He never once showed he did. Trump only ever cared about himself.
One of the loons I survey ( PRN) has lately claimed that opposition to standard PH actions, vaccines et al is now being done by “orthodox” physicians, MD/PhDs, scientists with large numbers of PubMed cites, well regarded professors NOT ( what Jimmy Wales of Wikipedia calls) ” lunatic charlatans” ( i.e. alt med/ woo) . Orac has discussed many of them already.
People who haven’t the medical background of Dr DG or SBM sceptics can easily be fooled by mis-information when physicians/ scientists who for the most part have should been reasonable sources give it- but there are precedents for this:
— hiv.aids denialists could claim an esteemed professor, Peter Duesberg
— alt med cancer advocates could cite Burzynski and Gonzalez, real doctors who promoted unrealistic treatments
— Drs Hyman and Ornish has endeared themselves to woo-believers because of their focus upon nutritionuber alles
YET in the long run, the final measure isn’t WHO the source is or their credentials/ degrees, it’s about how well the information they provide fits into the complez, multi-factor overview of research and clinical observation. Average people do not have the ability to always sort out meaningful studies from outliers and misquoted partial results often quoted by alt med provocateurs hell bent on eroding confidence in SBM and elevating their own relevance and fame ( notoriety, actually)
Granted forced vaccination does not rise to the level of brutality and savagery as the Holacaust, but, at its basic root, it’s still the same principle of pissing on people’s fundamental, inalienable rights. Who will deny this? So, again for the umpteenth time I ask, is forced vaccination excusable because vaccines are seen as a ‘good thing’ that justifies pissing on people’s basic rights?
The Constitution of the USA guarantees that the rights of the individual override the (perceived) rights of the collective. (I’m not an American BTW).
The Chinese mentality is the inverse. This was why kung-fu legend Bruce Lee was seen as such a subversive anti-hero to the Chinese. He would reject the cowed will of the collective and act alone against corrupt authority.
Liberty has associated danger: to guarantee safety also guarantees removal of liberty, under the dictatorship of a collective.
The worrying thing is not that the authorities want to treat human beings as cattle – they always have.
The worrying thing is that it seems a vast percentage of people actually WANT to be treated as cattle – and will rail against anyone that doesn’t, as a threat to their “safety”.
Obviously – this collectivist peer pressure is never discouraged by authority, especially if the net result is the executive gaining more power.
“Für Ihre Sicherheit”, as the Germans used to say. (But not to Bruce Lee)
Yeah I can tell you’re not an American.
You do know that we have laws here, right? Laws that constrain the actions of individuals? Things like drunk driving laws (prohibited), driver’s licenses, building standards, the Pure Food and Drug act?
It is against (local, state and or federal law) to do things like: drive your car through a crowd of pedestrians, sell tainted food, and lock people into their place of work. And why do these laws exist? Because a lot of people died because of the actions and choices of others, very often actions and choices that the people who died had no control over.
The right of the people working in a T-shirt factory to be able to at least try to escape if there is a fire supersedes the right of the factory owner to lock the doors shut. See the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire.
The right of people walking on the sidewalk to live and avoid severe bodily injury supersedes your right to drive your car on the sidewalk.
How else do I know you’re not an American? Your idea that Americans “want to be treated as cattle”. Like, have you met an American? As individuals, and as members of communities (from churches, schools or neighborhoods up to states and the country as a whole) we are an ornery and argumentative bunch. Left right and center we argue within and outside of our (current) in-group.
Even Americans who have clearly and unambiguously stated that they want authoritarian leadership (throughout the country’s history) want to argue and debate and fight about it.
It’s not a political thing, it’s a cultural thing, and as a cultural thing is unlikely to change easily. (Why do you think there are so many different Christian sects in America?)
In sum: your statement was very ignorant, and maybe you should do some reading.
Couldn’t agree more. I also find this extremely puzzling. Yet, is it agreeing to be treated as cattle in return for safety, or is the consent seated in an almost instinctual desire to trust the shepherd or authority? More talk of the Holocaust, but how does the Milligram experiment not account?!
https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html
@JustaTech
So Benjamin Franklin’s statement:
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
you would consider an anachronism, and an attitude from an unenlightened age, rendered irrelevant, due to the gravity of the dangers we currently face?
So many in contemporary society would appear to be prepared to sacrifice ANY liberties they have, to purchase a little temporary safety, and furthermore would admonish others not prepared to do the same.
@Cthulhu:
Way to mis-read Franklin, there. He said “essential” freedom, not “any” freedom. There’s an important difference there. Even in pre-Revolution America Ben Franklin was constrained by legal and social limitations on his actions. He couldn’t have set up a tannery wherever he wanted – those were limited to specific locations – for health reasons! (Tanneries smell terrible, and in the time of the miasma theory, were considered dangerous to the health of the public.)
Since when is not wearing a mask an “essential Liberty”? You’re already required to be wearing a shirt and shoes to be served at a food establishment. If you wander around with no clothes on you are in violation of the law and will most likely be arrested (if you’re in public).
As for “temporary” safety: Franklin was talking about political safety, about safety from the violence of other humans. He was not talking about taking reasonable precautions from a deadly disease.
The Supreme Court has already ruled that it is Constitutional to require vaccinations. There’s no way to know 100% how Franklin would feel about that, but we do know for a fact that he regretted, deeply and painfully, not having his son variolated, when his son then died of smallpox.
(Given that Franklin was a pretty good scientist I have to think he would find vaccines brilliant and think you’re being very foolish to refuse.)
And don’t think I didn’t notice how you just skipped all my points about the rest of American history and American culture.
The (tale of the) Unwanted Haggis has started leaking.
@JustaTech
I would say that a right to medical self-determination, based on your own assessment of the risks / benefits of a particular medical intervention, as summarized for you by a knowledgeable physician in terms you can understand i.e. informed consent, would be an essential liberty.
Maybe you wouldn’t.
I’ve spent a sum total of about 20 days of my life so far, in the USA, so I don’t consider myself in any position to comment on American culture.
I find your apparent idea that unbridled liberty equates to the right to break the golden rule of “do unto others as you yourself would be done by” somewhat bizarre. (And probably some form of straw man argument.)
And by the way: Any “optional” medical status, the lack of which prevents you from going about your daily business, or earning a living, is de facto mandatory, as far as I’m concerned.
@Cthulhu You should assess risk of not getting a medical treatment, too. Is your assessment truly informed ?
Public health measures target the whole public. In this case, (if invididual assessment of risks are applied) young people get the disease but old people suffer from it.
You will notice that Supreme Court disagrees with your notion of liberty. It has the last word, surely.
@Arno
You can rearrange the deck chairs as much as you like on this cruise ship, and install a captain of whatever political stripe.
The fact is not altered: Once something is mandatory there is no individual consent, informed or otherwise.
Once the subjective concept of “the greater good” over-rides the consent of the individual, we are in the hands of prevailing authority’s interpretation of it, be it Hitler’s, Stalin’s or Ronald McDonald’s.
@Arno
PS. Appealing to the officially sanctioned, centrally planned, government endorsed committee for the definition of the boundaries of one’s own liberty … pretty much sums up the mindset of those I’m arguing with in this forum.
Remember: Always get permission from authority, first – before exercising any liberty.
Don’t risk infringing any bye-laws.
XD
NPC-face.jpg
@Cthulhu I notice that you call Supreme Court “centrally planned committee”. It actually has judicial power in US.
Public health is not a subjective thing. Pandemics kill people, very objectively. In this case, young people will get the COVID, and old people would die because of it.
Great reply, JustaTech.
Do you have a driver’s licence?
Just trying to work with what JT laid down here..
‘You have no right to drive your car through a crowd of pedestrians, sell tainted food, or lock people in their workplaces. And, while we are at it, you also don’t have a right to refuse an experimental vaccine injected into your bloodstream, and one that the maker will not be held responsible should harm come to you!’
Dunno, JT; having a tough time figuring out how the first three can be seen as inalienable rights
1) There was a time in America where it was not only perfectly legal but standard business practice to sell tainted meat (got to make a profit!) and to lock your employees into the factory. These practices only stopped when the public demanded that they be made against the law.
2) No one is forcing you to be vaccinated, Greg. You are not being issued a citation, being fined or being jailed. You are simply experiencing the consequences of your actions, as defined by the society in which you live.
@JT’s words to the sexually molested female, deemed immodestly dressed, in the Sharia controlled zone.
No?
Ah – cultural relativism, then?
It’s alright when we do it.
The luxury of hypocrisy.
@Cthulhu
Did you seriously just compare not getting a job to sexual assault?
Did you really just compare not being admitted to a private business like a restaurant to sexual assault?
What is wrong with you? That is sick and twisted and completely unrelated to any point I was making.
Seriously, what is wrong with you?
@JT
I ask myself what is wrong with you.
You try to offset the most abhorrent treatment of other human beings: Non-consensual medical intervention – that actually carries a real risk – with virtue signalling and self-righteous indignation.
The owner of the body decides what happens to THEIR body – NOT YOU.
Don’t you understand this?
Do you actually think you are the “good guys” – by inflicting a medical treatment onto a person that has explicitly stated they don’t want it? That is the behavior of a psychopath.
I am beginning to think this whole forum is a psy-op.
@Cthulhu You are saying that vaccination is worest thing you can imagine. Your imagination is very poor.
Unvaccinated do spread diseases. Saying this is not virtue signalling.
Cthulhu: Non-consensual would be something like “If you don’t get this shot, we’ll shoot your dog.” In practice, yes, these mandates are forcing you to get vaccinated, but it’s still your choice in the end.
Hmm. Who’s behind the door? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofz0iJQd-xU
And what’s behind the mask?
https://youtu.be/yIQYhhji9Ts?t=6
@Greg:
No it isn’t. With rights come responsibilities, and restricting those who endanger others by refusing vaccination protects themedically vulnerable.
A group of nurses made the “vaccine mandates are Nazism” argument in court. The Judge dismissed it as “reprehensible”. I would have used a bunch of swear words, but Judges don’t get that luxury.
Judges in the past also ruled that slavery and denying women the vote were kosher
Ooh, somebody’s toddled up to testing boundaries.
Nothing to reap there, Narad. Perhaps I can be accused of a lot of things, but antisemitism just isn’t me. For all the flaws of blaming all the world’s woes on one particular religious sect, I just find it damn boring.
@Greg Judges made school segregation illegal, too. Perhaps they have learned a few things since Dredd Scott
My conditions for a vaccine mandate: New rules for medical staff vaccinating the non-consenting.
The identities of the non-consenting individual and the shot administrator are recorded.
The administrator can incur the following penalties, based on outcomes for the patient:
Mild adverse reaction – 5 yrs jail
Severe adverse reaction – 10 yrs jail
Death – death by hanging
All penalties are cumulative, for multiple patients, and if the administrator accumulates 30 yrs or more – death by hanging.
You can talk the talk – but who would walk the walk?
Anyone prepared to sign up for this gig?
@Cthulhu:
“New rules for medical staff vaccinating the non-consenting.”
That’s easy: no one is doing this, so it is a complete non-issue. Period.
I don’t where you get your utterly out-of-touch head-cannon, but no one in the USA is being vaccinated without their consent. It is not a thing. So you can chill way the heck out.
This is where you have gone wrong, Greg.
No person who matters is suggesting vaccination will be forced.
Got it, Chris!
The young lady is not being forced into sex. She will just be denied a job, her movement will be restricted, and also denied various services as consequences for refusing.
Vaccinations don’t force people into having sex, Greg. What a stupid assertion.
No one will be denied a job if they choose not to be vaccinated. They will have to choose a job that does not involve contact with the public in order to protect the ret of the public. Choices have consequences, Greg. You choosing not to get the COVID-19 vaccine Greg may mean there are some restrictions on what you can do. No one will be forcing you to get the vaccine, it will be your choice. If you make poor choices, you cannot expect the rest of society to pander to your whims. Demanding that is the ultimate in selfishness.
What happens when your inalienable right conflicts with someone elses inalienable right? A duel to the death? Legal action?
Numb, are you arguing that people have an inalienable right to be protected from diseases and others that might spread them? If so, why are there no laws to force Tom to stay home when he has a cold or force him to wash his hands after he goes the bathroom?
No but they have an inalienable right to self defence. If you knew someone was infected but still wandering round the supermarket fondling the fruit and veg…..
Which inalienable right would you cite for resisting a vaccine mandate? Coercion? Well the law says that you can be coerced into paying taxes and buying car insurance. I looks like there’s an inalienable right to suit almost any position. “I was just pursuing happiness” said the serial killer.
@Greg It depends. COVID has much more people than flu. I suspect that you confuse flu with common cold.
If it was that easy to suspend elections and instill martial law, Trump would have done it.
True that. The problem is, Republicans have been sure enough been busy trying to make it easier to do and might just succeed by 2024.
We live in terrifying times, and Covid is not the scariest part of it by a long shot.
Amen.
That assumes a minimal lever of ability in Trump and crew. Trump could not organize a piss up in a brewery.
You vastly underestimate Trumps ‘crew’, which includes not only a quotient of very public clowns (Giuliani, Lindell, Lewandowski), but also plenty of billionaires-with-bottomless-pockets funded influence groups that operate effectively out of the spotlight — for example Heritage Action, which is behind the push for state laws that not only advance vote suppression, but provide mechanisms for vote nullification.
Not to mention, you know, Putin… ;- \
@ sadmar
I think the problem I see is that Trump and his immediate crew may have wanted a coup but the buillionaires, etc., see no reason for it and probably would not want it They are getting what they want as is.
Putin is the last person to want a coup. US foreign policy is unstable enough as it is, a dictator or country in turmoil would be a nightmare
He is pointing his pistol at the wrong hombres and that seems the intent as The Grifted Children only need be pointed to/at a matter for the win/fail.
To me, their whole media machine is reminiscent of the fat lady in the movie Candyman that points and laughs and says “candyman” while trepidatiously looking around to make sure all the others in her group get it and are also laughing along with her just a little more than at her.
Look what Alabama did. Coronavirus relief money for prisons and not people or crushed rural hospitals or ppe and ventilation in no-window schools. And they have a radio personality that said it just shows that the 2.2 billion dollars was not needed for the hoaxdemic. The state makes it a point of dinner conversation over how long somebody has been in jail and how it should be much longer. Always has. It seems an innovative, cost effective solution to facilitate family reunions during a time of pandemic; maybe the new ones will be cleaner. Each to their own. Maybe some subversive, liberal terrorist should get a job there and sugar all the 2 billion dollar concrete mix.
I fear it will become like last spring when signs popped up that anyone coming in with a mask will be held at gunpoint until the cops get there. After all, fascists like easy surveillance over public health any day to continue to ensure that an individual is doing their will and not his own. They may then go so far as to pass a law that one must get the virus just so they don’t have to feel painted with so much shame that they gave it to you because “It’s the law. If you don’t like it, change it.” Same as it ever was.
Don’t know if you’ve come across this bit of idiocy… https://doctorsandscientistsdeclaration.org/ In a similar vein to the Great Barrington Delclaration.
There is an article about him at STAT that opens with “Dr. Vinay Prasad is a professional scold:”
Key quote: “You might catch more flies with honey, and sure — Vinay could be sweeter with his critiques,” Gonsalves said. “But I don’t think that’d get very much attention.”
And to a great extent, that’s become the goal for Prasad – look at me, look at me, pay attention to me.
Apple cider vinegar attracts flies better. Perhaps there’s a tie-in somewhere.
Nothing attracts flies like shit.
Dead Bodies has joined the chat.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34406358/
All the big-hearted misery and death* because the Walgreens ladies haven’t been doing like the junkies on tv.
*pretty sure there haven’t been any reported death from the self-resolving myocarditis from vaccination
Why am I not surprised that Kyrie Irving, spherical earth denier, is resisting Covid-19 vaccination, making him ineligible to play in Brooklyn Nets home games?
“There had been previous optimism that Irving would get vaccinated and fulfill local governmental mandates allowing him to practice and play in New York this season, but that hope is waning, and Irving’s continued resistance to vaccination has the Nets preparing for the possibility that they’ll be without him for home practices and games for the foreseeable future, sources told ESPN.”
More sports-related covidiot news:
While Urban Meyer, coach of the Jacksonville Jaguars deals with the fallout from his bar antics with an unidentified young woman, his wife Shelley has gotten attention for her Covid-19 conspiracy theorizing and anti-Covid vaccine views.
“Some might say that it’s none of our business what Shelley Meyer thinks of the COVID vaccine and it has no bearing on Urban or the Jaguars. However, as Slate contributor Alex Kirschner reminds us, Urban has included her in his dealing with the Jaguars as a kind of counselor and discipline guru.”
http://thecomeback.com/nfl/urban-meyers-wife-shelley-covid-vaccine-comments-raising-eyebrows.html
Note that Shelley Meyer has been working as an instructor at the Ohio State school of nursing.
“We all make mistakes-we are all sinners” — Shelley Meyer
Just not seeing the whole forced vaccination argument. I do see that government law making, at various levels, piss off a tiny minority of people, and promote big PR campaigns haranguing such a decision. Don’t see any government entity accosting people and injecting them with a vaccine. Not happening here in America. This is a garbage position and clearly monied.
You have a choice to vaccinate or not vaccinate. You, as an American citizen, will need to know what your decision means in a number of dimensions. Fine. Pick.
For those who have no decency in promoting best data to promote survival and help the nation or any nation support people at the most basic level … noted.
Anyway, my .02. A bargain .. lol.
Good Blog … thanks!
No. Wrong. As usual. Covid infection does not protect you 100%. It does NOT. This is getting really tiresome.
Well, maybe not 100%, but comparing how much more protective it is over the vaccines, it’s a ‘tomaro/tomahto’ thing.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/312538
A recent observational study from the UK shows previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 is no better than vaccination at protection from a positive test. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveytechnicalarticle/analysisofpopulationsintheukbyriskoftestingpositiveforcovid19september2021
Not a study, Chris, but a survey. A survey! Also, please quote what you are claiming. Could not find it in the– survey!
A survey using PCR tests. So, not just a questionnaire looking for opinions. Not that I looked further but it says that right near the start.
Greg: “Not a study, Chris, but a survey. A survey!”
Talk show host Kim Iversen, who “sees things” the way Greg does, recently cited a Carnegie Mellon study to try to show that educated people are refusing Covid vaccines. That study was (wait for it) a survey.
You’ll have to find another right-wing fringe heroine. So sad.
Here, chucklehead.
Charitably, it might be suggested that your sagging brain inserted “questionnaire,” which better suited the needs of your medulla oblongata.
It means take the vaccine or don’t. You just can’t take the stink out of your intent – try as you might. Know it, see it, and smell it. The data so far clearly shows a benefit for surviving a COVID infection with any of the US market vaccines.
Your Hmmmm and interpretations make you more ignorant than anticipated in my estimation. Noted.
Can you please clearly state your argument based on the study you link to? That would be nice.
You could also just stop helping people be as ignorant as you. That’s my vote.
Hey, Narad! Let’s read the study together…
If the Israeli study showing natural immunity to be 13 times more protective was a punch to the gut of the vaccination push, consider this study to be a square to the jaw blow and leading to a standing 8-count. This study is essentially providing the details of why the Israeli study was no fluke and why things are likely to get worse.
@Greg Study you menat is this:
Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections
Sivan Gazit, Roei Shlezinger, Galit Perez, Roni Lotan, Asaf Peretz, Amir Ben-Tov, Dani Cohen, Khitam Muhsen, Gabriel Chodick, Tal Patalon
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415
A citation:
In model 1, we matched 16,215 persons in each group. Overall, demographic characteristics were similar between the groups, with some differences in their comorbidity profile
During the follow-up period, 257 cases of SARS-CoV-2 infection were recorded, of which 238 occurred in the vaccinated group (breakthrough infections) and 19 in the previously infected group (reinfections).
Vaccine efficiency: 1 – 238/16215 = 98.5
Protection by natural immunity:1 – 19/16215 = 99.9
So natural immunity is actually 99.9 / 98.5 = 1.01 times better. Not something to die for.
You seem to believe this paper. Do you believe vaccine efficiency it reports ?
@Greg Robert Kennedy Jr himself promoted a paper about immunity difference in question. If dig deeper to it, it said that vaccine efficiency is 98% and natural immunity protection 99 %. Where you get your number ?
Besides of that there is a serious disease before natural immunity.
Aarno, what really are you trying to hang your hat on? If the vaccine was ever 98% effective at preventing infection, what certainly isn’t in dispute is its effectiveness falls to a dismal level a few months in — 40%, Aarno!
And, while we are reflecting on this riduculous plunge 6 months in, which vaccine cheerleader here would like to hazard a guess at what it will be after a year? I suppose ‘hazard’ is the fitting word! Personally, I will wager that the vaccine protectivity will be less than 15% after a year in.
And, when this is confirmed, will you continue to fire and banish the unvaxxed from society if only to cover-up that the experiment went totally bust. Of course, the key distinction then would be the unvaxxed who didn’t get the vaccine as opposed to the ones that did.
Funny, Pfizer is conducting Phase 1 and Phase 2/3 trials, but we haven’t obtained a whiff of information from them as to the vaccine effectiveness post a year. All the info coming in that are suggesting protection is going to shit are coming from third parties. I believe Kevin Vicklund suggested that Pfizer would soon release that data. That was months ago!
Holy crap, I just found this! Looks like my prediction will be off. It’s likely to be worse. Qatar data is already reporting a protection figure of 20% 5 to 7 months in.
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/pfizer-vaccine-immunity-fda-kids-5-to-11/?itm_term=home
@Greg Study I mentioned was posted August 25. It is very present data, statistically robust. You may want tell use where you get number 40%
Study you cited is about neutralizing antibodies. Actually, antibodies will always go down, otherwise there would be a permanent infection. (memory B cells would be responsible for secondary immunity). Study I mentioned was sbout COVID cases, which is obviously the ineresting thing,
Aarno, link the study and I guarantee it reads like all the other data coming out: Pfizer’s vaccine effectiveness against infection is very high after a few weeks after the second dose and then drops to shit after a few months in, but it remains highly effective against serious sickness and death.
Indeed an argument can be made that reducing sickness and deaths may be only temporary if the vaccine is not stopping infection.
So, let’s just stick to considering memory B cells? Have it your way, Aarno.
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-10-natural-infection-vaccination-differences-covid.html
It’s great how Gerg seems unable to cite primary sources. They all have to be filtered through a press release, or through somewhere that leads to a press release, etc. At least you know he hasn’t read what he’s spitting up.
Well, we can have it your way also, Narad. Here is the actual study proving, yet again, that vaccination immunity cannot hold natural immunity’s jockstrap. Wait! – could these findings possibly account for the finding of more covid cases in more vaccinated countries? Here is looking at you Singapore!
As I explained, the experiment is proving to be a bust. But the vaccines are drastically reducing sickness and deaths?! Well, if they are not stopping infection, even that might turn out to be temporary. Yes — let’s save Gramps today so he can face delta or worse tomorrow!
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04060-7
And, the lead author was reached privately to account for the finding. He explained….
I really do feel sorry for researchers who stumble on inconvenient findings that do not fit in with the agenda. I imagine they feel like imperial commanders having to explain to Darth Vader that the rebel prisoner escaped.
Here is another way Nussenzweig et al is bad for team we-are-going-to-vaccine-anything-that-calls-itself-homo-sapien-and-we-won’t-give-a-flying-f-if-had-covid: The argument went that the efficacy findings showing natural immunity to be superior could not be relied upon because we didn’t know how durable that protection would be. Nussenzweig et al is answering that precise question. It’s proving that natural immunity is more durable than Pfizer and Moderna’s two shots hit-me-ups.
@Greg Study I cited is not from Pfizer. It is from “natural immunity is 13 times better” study you and Robert Kennedy Jr hawk. See previous reply.
Memory B cells are a bit better. Try T cell memory next. Tcells are main defense against viral infections. Regardless, I think breaktrough infections and reinfections are better metric.
Efficacy studies say natural infection is better; neutralizing titers say the same; so do memory b-cells. Now you want to raise memory T cells, Aarno? Seriously, Aarno, do you know how tiring this is getting?!
You just can’t make up this level of stupidity. “Lead author”?** “Reached privately?”***
** Gerg must have been too deep in effector cells to sort this one out.
*** I suggest belting out O Canada while forming an image.
@Greg Israel atudy showed that natural immunity is 1.01 times better. Besides of that, you must have a disease to get a natural immunity, and you may actually die because of it
Hey! Looks like Kim Iversen is seeing things the way I do. Seriously RI regulars, do you find it easier to sympathize with women that sleep with their bosses to keep their jobs than people who get vaccinated to do the same? Again, is it a case that vaccines can be seen as a ‘good thing’, so folks should ‘put out’ without all the arm twisting.
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/kim-iversen-the-hills-rising-vaccine-mandates-coercion-ethical/?itm_term=home
Did he also tell them, ‘it will be safe and effective’?
This is becoming farcical. I truly hope this is a comedy act in disguise.
Yeah rape is exactly the same as vaccination.
You’ve got to be kidding, or completely out of your mind.
He’s a sad sack – as before, he’ll never be satisfied until he’s shit so much over the place that Canada geese would be awed and he gets booted, whereupon he presumably tries to repeat the routine somewhere else and whine about how mean other blogs are.
His mental status is a non-entity.
This is the reality inside Greg’s head. Most of the time I don’t bother responding, because inevitably the “vaccination is the same as rape” trope will spill out. Greg is exceptionally sure of his ignorance.
@MedicalYeti:
Sadly Greg’s no Poe.
He might be trying to play a Lady Macbeth, but he’s really just an edgelord wannabe.
When he first arrived he managed to keep up the façade of “person interested in a conversation” for like a whole six months. Now it’s just this nonsense all the time.
When do you date that? Person-years are OK.
Who do you voodoo bitch (test post) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1Cp5JQ6jS4 glad that worked. I’m pretty NSA’d over my other attempted posts. Sux to be you though because I rolled.
@Narad: Uh, probably 3 years ago? Time has gotten slippery and I’m not great at searching the comments here.
Seriously do you really think that forced sex is same thing than vaccination ? A woman is vaccinated in every six minutes do not sound same as the original version, do you think ? A thing actually comparable is hygienic rules food workers must obey.
“A thing actually comparable is hygienic rules food workers must obey.”
You might want to have a bit of a sit down for this next part. .. My favorite encounter was with a young girl in a gas station Subway satellite that said, “It’s not my fault, it was all out like this when I got here” as fruit flies blew out after asking for some veggie or other. It was 4:00pm. In the afternoon. Awkward.
I’m pretty sure he just wants Orac to ban him again.
Someone coercing you into having something stuck into you that you do not want – having explicitly stated this dissent in advance … is absolutely nothing like someone coercing you into having something stuck into you that you do not want – having explicitly stated this dissent in advance.
I see no similarity at all.
Simple question: Do you own your own body, or not?
If you don’t own it, who does?
Once again, an anti-vaxer makes the worst comparison possible…you have no “right” to spread infectious diseases.
However, you do have a choice not to get vaccinated…but all choices have consequences – sorry you can’t handle that.
@Lawrence
So once vaccinated you are incapable of spreading disease?
Or maybe your vaccination now imparts a “right” to spread disease?
The vaccines for COVID do not prevent transmission, or infection – according to government advice.
@Cthulhu If you are vaccinated, spreading is much reduced. So you wanr to do nothing to reduce spread of disease (and, of course, want to get the disease).
Scanning Hopkin’s worldometer, I picked up on this. Not surprised it is being confirmed.
https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/fully-vaccinated-countries-highest-number-new-covid-cases/?itm_term=home
Children’s Health Defense? Seriously?
That’s only slightly more credible than Whale.to.
No point in trying to beat the messenger, Julian; the message is everywhere.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/health/pfizer-vaccine-waning-immunity/index.html
The actual paper is in there, but the immediate hilarity is that Gerg was incompetent to read the cherry-picked scatter plot. Because Israel.
@Greg Vaccination has no herd immunity effect, if vaccination rate is low. Redo the calculation with only countries over 50% included,
Besides of that, there are lots confounders here. You should really stick with analysis of breakthrough infection cases,
Silly scientists not able to find a discernible relationship between most vaxxed countries and covid cases. What did they expect when they picked the wrong variables to study. Here are two variables that I am confident will yield a very strong positive linear relationship: increased covid vaccination and Pfizer and Moderna’s bank balances ?
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Yea, maybe you are right. I did see some asterisks for the “free” vaccine from Publix about various participating insurance schemes. I want a booster, I’ve been thinking on going out of state and just lying about my status. It appears that “breakthrough” infections start rolling in after about five months and people start going to the hospital with it after seven.
But for how long will they be sitting pretty? I really believe a daily snort off llama snot nano body (or some ready-made nano particles equally sticky) inhalers is the future. Maybe you guys could get behind that over masks and vaccines without waiting on Trump’s anointment for it because that ain’t coming.
Even if it had one seriously ugly side effect of hideous debilitating back fat, retrumplicans shouldn’t mind so long as it physically makes normal people look and move hobbled like the entirety of the GOP equally.
The talking point of fired health care workers/police*/others is, perhaps, problematic. Oh I would not want to interact with such people in a restaurant, hospital, courthouse, or squad car but these are still the same people were asked to work though when there was not a vaccine even though they now be selfish dumbfucks.
So the shots are not perfect but they do limit replication and limit it globally. I don’t know enough virology to say much about selective pressure and a weakening vaccine getting it on but mutations are birthed out of replication, selective pressure or not.
*Actually, I’m all for getting cops off the roads by any means. It was nice for a while not having a potential stop and interaction popping out from behind every blade of grass. A health care worker is someone that you may have a need to see. A pig comes at you, gets in your face, and either kills you or makes you very sick. Unvaxxed cops put everyone at risk. If I were a cop hating germophobe and armed I may attempt forced compliance of 6 ft and one or both of us is going down. If I am unarmed I may run and then only I am going down. I do not wish to be the only one to go down so.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Yea, you may be right. It seems like after five months the breakthrough infections start rolling in and after seven people can get pretty sick. I want a booster and have been thinking about going out of state and just lying about my status. But I noticed some asterisks for various insurance schemes that apply to the Publix “free” vaccine.
But for how long will they be sitting pretty? I really believe that daily nano body (or some other ready-made nano particles that are similarly sticky) llama snot inhalers are in our future. Maybe you guys could get behind that over masks and vaccines without awaiting Trump’s anointment because that ain’t coming. Or are you just gonna r/liberalllamasnot?
Even if the one serious side effect is horribly disfiguring and debilitating back fat, retrumplicans still should embrace it so long as it humps up and hobbles everyone to physically appear and move like the current near-entirety of the GOP equally.
The firing of nurses/cops*/firemen/others for refusing the vaccine is problematic. Oh I would not want to interact with such people in a hospital/restaurant/court house/squad car/Waco but they were asked, and answered, to risk and work when there was not yet a vaccine even though they now be selfish dumbfucks.
The vaccines are not perfect but they limit replication and do so globally. I don’t know enough about virology to address a weakening vaccine and selective pressure getting it on together but mutants are born out of replication, selective pressure or not.
*Actually, I’m all for whatever gets the cops off the roads. It was nice for awhile to drive without threat of a stop and interaction popping out behind every blade of grass. You may have great need to go see a health care worker but a pig just charges at you, gets in your face, and either kills you or makes you very sick. Unvaxxed cops are a danger to all. I am a cop-hating germophobe: :Rolling stop. Uh Oh. Pig all poked? Idk. If I am armed, I may try to enforce 6 ft. and one or both of us are going down. If I am unarmed I may run and then only I am going down. I do not wish to be the only one going down so.
@Orac
I had a reply for Greg. Sad, I know. It was less than brevity and when I submitted it noscript gave a “cross-site scripting {jetpack}” something or other. I figured it just took too long to write because a refresh just said “document expired” in the comment box.
I rewrote, wrongly, and this time clip boarded it. I got the same block 4 times in a row. I found a protection to switch off and that appeared to let it post. Yet I still do not see it 2 hours later. Either I got myself in moderate or something potential spy crap is broken.
ok other posts have gone right through. I can only ass you me that some part of it is a speach no no now?
Here it is again with a slight modification just to test:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Yea, you may be right. It seems like after five months the breakthrough infections start rolling in and after seven people can get pretty sick. I want a booster and have been thinking about going out of state and just lying about my status. But I noticed some asterisks for various insurance schemes that apply to the Publix “free” vaccine.
But for how long will they be sitting pretty? I really believe that daily nano body (or some other ready-made nano particles that are similarly sticky) llama snot inhalers are in our future. Maybe you guys could get behind that over masks and vaccines without awaiting Trump’s anointment because that ain’t coming. Or are you just gonna r/liberalllamasnot?
Even if the one serious side effect is horribly disfiguring and debilitating back fat, retrumplicans still should embrace it so long as it humps up and hobbles everyone to physically appear and move like the current near-entirety of the GOP equally.
The firing of nurses/cops*/firemen/others for refusing the vaccine is problematic. Oh I would not want to interact with such people in a hospital/restaurant/court house/squad car/Waco but they were asked, and answered, to risk and work when there was not yet a vaccine even though they now be selfish dumbfucks.
The vaccines are not perfect but they limit replication and do so globally. I don’t know enough about virology to address a weakening vaccine and selective pressure getting it on together but mutants are born out of replication, selective pressure or not.
*Actually, I’m all for whatever gets the cops off the roads. It was nice for awhile to drive without threat of a stop and interaction popping out behind every blade of grass. You may have great need to go see a health care worker but a pig just charges at you, gets in your face, and either kills you or makes you very sick. Unvaxxed cops are a danger to all. I am a cop-hating germophobe: :Rolling stop. Uh Oh. Pig all poked? Idk. If I am armed, I may try to enforce 6 ft. and one or both of us are going down. If I am unarmed I may run and then only I am going down. I do not wish to be the only one going down. Especially since I hate cops so much.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Yea, you may be right. It seems like after five months the breakthrough infections start rolling in and after seven people can get pretty sick. I want a booster and have been thinking about going out of state and just lying about my status. But I noticed some asterisks for various insurance schemes that apply to the Publix “free” vaccine.
But for how long will they be sitting pretty? I really believe that daily nano body (or some other ready-made nano particles that are similarly sticky) llama snot inhalers are in our future. Maybe you guys could get behind that over masks and vaccines without awaiting Trump’s anointment because that ain’t coming. Or are you just gonna r/liberalllamasnot?
Even if the one serious side effect is horribly disfiguring and debilitating back fat, retrumplicans still should embrace it so long as it humps up and hobbles everyone to physically appear and move like the current near-entirety of the GOP equally.
The firing of nurses/cops*/firemen/others for refusing the vaccine is problematic. Oh I would not want to interact with such people in a hospital/restaurant/court house/squad car/Waco but they were asked, and answered, to risk and work when there was not yet a vaccine even though they now be selfish dumbfucks.
The vaccines are not perfect but they limit replication and do so globally. I don’t know enough about virology to address a weakening vaccine and selective pressure getting it on together but mutants are born out of replication, selective pressure or not.
*Actually, I’m all for whatever gets the cops off the roads. It was nice for awhile to drive without threat of a stop and interaction popping out behind every blade of grass. You may have great need to go see a health care worker but a pig just charges at you, gets in your face, and either kills you or makes you very sick. Unvaxxed cops are a danger to all. I am a cop-hating germophobe: :Rolling stop. Uh Oh. Pig all poked? Idk. If I am armed, I may try to enforce 6 ft. and one or both of us are going down. If I am unarmed I may run and then only I am going down. I do not wish to be the only one going down so.
It is no longer not obvious. What is the banned words? just strike the stuff about the retarded germy spreader cops, post it, and call it a day already.
Edge me Greg and I’m o’rly saying that because I can not dislodge my taunt/taint to you. There may be some funny business going on but it is not what we think I think more funny haha than funny gay. <– that may just be enough of a hash change to kick it out and bash you with it. I really don’t see the conflict yet. Something I said moist hafe rotted en route. You Euro faux news fag.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Yea, you may be right. It seems like after five months the breakthrough infections start rolling in and after seven people can get pretty sick. I want a booster and have been thinking about going out of state and just lying about my status. But I noticed some asterisks for various insurance schemes that apply to the Publix “free” vaccine.
But for how long will they be sitting pretty? I really believe that daily nano body (or some other ready-made nano particles that are similarly sticky) llama snot inhalers are in our future. Maybe you guys could get behind that over masks and vaccines without awaiting Trump’s anointment because that ain’t coming. Or are you just gonna r/liberalllamasnot?
Even if the one serious side effect is horribly disfiguring and debilitating back fat, retrumplicans still should embrace it so long as it humps up and hobbles everyone to physically appear and move like the current near-entirety of the GOP equally.
The firing of nurses/cops*/firemen/others for refusing the vaccine is problematic. Oh I would not want to interact with such people in a hospital/restaurant/court house/squad car/Waco but they were asked, and answered, to risk and work when there was not yet a vaccine even though they now be selfish dumbfucks.
The vaccines are not perfect but they limit replication and do so globally. I don’t know enough about virology to address a weakening vaccine and selective pressure getting it on together but mutants are born out of replication, selective pressure or not.
*Actually, I’m all for whatever gets the cops off the roads. It was nice for awhile to drive without threat of a stop and interaction popping out behind every blade of grass. You may have great need to go see a health care worker but a pig just charges at you, gets in your face, and either kills you or makes you very sick. Unvaxxed cops are a danger to all. I am a cop-hating germophobe: :Rolling stop. Uh Oh. Pig all poked? Idk. If I am armed, I may try to enforce 6 ft. and one or both of us are going down. If I am unarmed I may run and then only I am going down. I do not wish to be the only one going down. Especially given my hatred of cops.
@Greg This study did not even have error margins. You can fit a line to any group of points. use error margins to evaluate does fit make sense. You could try to fir something else than a line, too.
Many countries does not yet have a real epidemic, but still vaccinate because they know that epidemic would eventually come. So obviously, there we have few cases and vaccinations
I must repeat: why you do not cite efficiency studies ? The relevant thing is breaktriugh infections.
[…] As students with long-haul covid return to school, many districts don’t fully know how to help Dr. Vinay Prasad goes full Godwin over COVID-19 public health measures Border Patrol is the wrong solution for the problems at the border Rapid Tests Are the Answer to […]
There appears to be a problem with the wordpress what did they just push? I hate them so much. Not that I hate you for being platformed but just that I hate them so much. I hate wordpress. I hate them so much. If this trivial shitpost gets through and my substantial in word reply to ‘Greg’ does not then I’m going back on the Loxapine because damn. I am starting to hate things so much. Censorship, my blinky dude. It is only pretty when you are bigly stoned.
What is the .WWW afraid of? Why will it not let me dick entice my one true love, Greg? Now that the hash is aldulterated: I would want choak on it sister Greg but here anyways:: :
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Yea, you may be right. It seems like after five months the breakthrough infections start rolling in and after seven people can get pretty sick. I want a booster and have been thinking about going out of state and just lying about my status. But I noticed some asterisks for various insurance schemes that apply to the Publix “free” vaccine.
But for how long will they be sitting pretty? I really believe that daily nano body (or some other ready-made nano particles that are similarly sticky) llama snot inhalers are in our future. Maybe you guys could get behind that over masks and vaccines without awaiting Trump’s anointment because that ain’t coming. Or are you just gonna r/liberalllamasnot?
Even if the one serious side effect is horribly disfiguring and debilitating back fat, retrumplicans still should embrace it so long as it humps up and hobbles everyone to physically appear and move like the current near-entirety of the GOP equally.
The firing of nurses/cops*/firemen/others for refusing the vaccine is problematic. Oh I would not want to interact with such people in a hospital/restaurant/court house/squad car/Waco but they were asked, and answered, to risk and work when there was not yet a vaccine even though they now be selfish dumbfucks.
The vaccines are not perfect but they limit replication and do so globally. I don’t know enough about virology to address a weakening vaccine and selective pressure getting it on together but mutants are born out of replication, selective pressure or not.
*Actually, I’m all for whatever gets the cops off the roads. It was nice for awhile to drive without threat of a stop and interaction popping out behind every blade of grass. You may have great need to go see a health care worker but a pig just charges at you, gets in your face, and either kills you or makes you very sick. Unvaxxed cops are a danger to all. I am a cop-hating germophobe: :Rolling stop. Uh Oh. Pig all poked? Idk. If I am armed, I may try to enforce 6 ft. and one or both of us are going down. If I am unarmed I may run and then only I am going down. I do not wish to be the only one going down so. /subverse bot
ps There has been a mixup with the messanger such that we can either put off your death or write it off displaying your public death as a peanut allergy. And your dick ain’t that great. Just saying.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Yea, you may be right. It seems like after five months the breakthrough infections start rolling in and after seven people can get pretty sick. I want a booster and have been thinking about going out of state and just lying about my status. But I noticed some asterisks for various insurance schemes that apply to the Publix “free” vaccine.
But for how long will they be sitting pretty? I really believe that daily nano body (or some other ready-made nano particles that are similarly sticky) llama snot inhalers are in our future. Maybe you guys could get behind that over masks and vaccines without awaiting Trump’s anointment because that ain’t coming. Or are you just gonna r/liberalllamasnot?
Even if the one serious side effect is horribly disfiguring and debilitating back fat, retrumplicans still should embrace it so long as it humps up and hobbles everyone to physically appear and move like the current near-entirety of the GOP equally.
The firing of nurses/cops*/firemen/others for refusing the vaccine is problematic. Oh I would not want to interact with such people in a hospital/restaurant/court house/squad car/Waco but they were asked, and answered, to risk and work when there was not yet a vaccine even though they now be selfish dumbfucks.
The vaccines are not perfect but they limit replication and do so globally. I don’t know enough about virology to address a weakening vaccine and selective pressure getting it on together but mutants are born out of replication, selective pressure or not.
*Actually, I’m all for whatever gets the cops off the roads. It was nice for awhile to drive without threat of a stop and interaction popping out behind every blade of grass. You may have great need to go see a health care worker but a pig just charges at you, gets in your face, and either kills you or makes you very sick. Unvaxxed cops are a danger to all. I am a cop-hating germophobe: :Rolling stop. Uh Oh. Pig all poked? Idk. If I am armed, I may try to enforce 6 ft. and one or both of us are going down. If I am unarmed I may run and then only I am going down. I do not wish to be the only one going down so.
Aaand I am reduced to this because this shit just will not post. At least, tell me why not. WTF China?
After 7 attempts, It is obvious my statement to Greg is not getting posted. Can you do me the courtesy of revealing the damned phrasing/information that is such a negating trigger? Will they kill your puppies if you disclose the informnation? Asking for a friend.
It could be a symbol count:
part one:
blockquote> That data … has consistently shown that immune responses from natural infections are extremely variable, thus unreliable. Vaccines, on the other hand, have repeatedly been proven to generate highly protective immune responses.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/10/prior-infection-vs-vaccination-why-everyone-should-get-a-covid-19-shot/
Yea, you may be right. It seems like after five months the breakthrough infections start rolling in and after seven people can get pretty sick. I want a booster and have been thinking about going out of state and just lying about my status. But I noticed some asterisks for various insurance schemes that apply to the Publix “free” vaccine.
We’re you saying something, Coriolis? Oh — you are trying to contest the prevailing science that natural immunity is kicking vaccination immunity’s butt by pointing to a press release that is mentioning some of vaccination immunity’s flailing jabs. Be careful with press releases, Coriolis; Narad is a stickler who frowns on them. Anyway, speaking of flailing jabs, in that article is the Kentucky study. Oh, the Kentucky study!
Hhmmnn!
I thought that was well known.
I did not know but even the rest of it is my bad, Narad. My earlier post to you did not seem to arrive but it was something like I wanted to respond to Greg not plaster the halls like he does.
The problem is on my end. Something is drop kicking half the packets and then acts like trying to pick the poor broken things back up and stuff them back into the queue. These twisted sisters are latching up browser tabs and many more than this site. It is unreasonable to live like this. This terminal is not much more than dumb. It just feels like everything is all falling apart sometimes.
@Greg Your prevailing science is one study. It showed that vaccine efficiency is 98.5 and natural i8mmunity protection 99.9. 1.4 procent difference, if so want to avoid division. Hardly a big one, this.
part 2:
But for how long will they be sitting pretty? I really believe that daily nano body (or some other ready-made nano particles that are similarly sticky) llama snot inhalers are in our future. Maybe you guys could get behind that over masks and vaccines without awaiting Trump’s anointment because that ain’t coming. Or are you just gonna r/liberalllamasnot?
Even if the one serious side effect is horribly disfiguring and debilitating back fat, retrumplicans still should embrace it so long as it humps up and hobbles everyone to physically appear and move like the current near-entirety of the GOP equally.
The firing of nurses/cops*/firemen/others for refusing the vaccine is problematic. Oh I would not want to interact with such people in a hospital/restaurant/court house/squad car/Waco but they were asked, and answered, to risk and work when there was not yet a vaccine even though they now be selfish dumbfucks.
The vaccines are not perfect but they limit replication and do so globally. I don’t know enough about virology to address a weakening vaccine and selective pressure getting it on together but mutants are born out of replication, selective pressure or not.
part 3
*Actually, I’m all for whatever gets the cops off the roads. It was nice for awhile to drive without threat of a stop and interaction popping out behind every blade of grass. You may have great need to go see a health care worker but a pig just charges at you, gets in your face, and either kills you or makes you very sick. Unvaxxed cops are a danger to all. I am a cop-hating germophobe: :Rolling stop. Uh Oh. Pig all poked? Idk. If I am armed, I may try to enforce 6 ft. and one or both of us are going down. If I am unarmed I may run and then only I am going down. I do not wish to be the only one going down so.
This disjointment may help me identify butkiss but at least I’ll find out the offending part. If Orac is asleep, the offending party will step up by not stepping up and that says a mouth full of crabs for me. Fucktards.
@coriolis: Now that your post has come through a dozen times, just a heads up that sometimes comments don’t show up immediately (or even promptly). I don’t know why, but as far as I’ve been able to determine it’s not a “nanny filter” thing, or even an “auto-moderation” thing, it’s just a … not loading correctly thing?
Like, it happens to my comments, it happens that I can’t see other people’s comments. I don’t know what causes it or how to fix it. I usually take it as a reminder to go do something else. Sadly, the trolls will be here when you get back.
I am a little bit ashamed about it, JustaTech.
Because of all the new warnings and pop ups I just thought I was ranting into the bit void spraying my bursty traffic upon several Cisco network switches I hate. Just shitpost to observe if it were possible for those routers to attract even more flies which might actually improve their functioning. Like it could get any worse. KaK
Again. I apologize. I did not think they were posting. I am at a loss for words, I don’t know what relevant wittical funny vid to cast myself upon to redeem myself but I am looking for one, give me a minute.
Oh gag me with a spoon. I am so sorry I have poor impulse control. I know this does not do anything to fix it but we will always have node/BGP |8214. https://youtu.be/FWcc6Xdo0z0?t=32
According to the scaly one, that study that Greg is trumpeting has nw been retracted for methodological flaws.
Quelle surprise.
Vinay Prasad is of the worst COVID deniers. He’s right in that sweet spot of sometimes appearing reasonable, but more often than not being a quack. He also relishes in blocking people, to the point where someone made a Twitter account about it.
The worst part is contacting UCSF isn’t going to do squat: they sanction his behaviour at best, and agree with it at worst. Remember, Monica Gandhi is also employed by them.
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[…] mask, social distancing, and vaccine mandates as the first steps on the road to fascism, basically going full Godwin, so to […]
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[…] give him credit for restraining himself and not explicitly linking them to incipient fascism, as Dr. Vinay Prasad once did, or to the “othering” that led to the Holocaust, as the Brownstone Institute recently […]