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Dr. Ryan Cole and Mike Adams: Fear mongering about cancer and COVID-19 vaccines

Antivaxxers have long claimed that vaccines cause cancer. Dr. Ryan Cole is now spreading the same misinformation about the COVID-19 vaccine.

A common antivax claim that encountered not long after I first started paying attention to the antivaccine movement is that vaccines cause cancer. I’ve encountered a number of variations of this claim throughout the years, but the most common and persistent claim is that the polio vaccine was contaminated with SV40 virus. While it is true that back in the late 1950s, batches of polio vaccine were contaminated with a monkey virus known as SV40, which can cause cancer in experimental animals, as I discussed in my usual excessive depth when analyzing what I like to call this “zombie meme,” there’s no evidence of an increase in cancer rates attributable to the polio vaccine. Completely unsurprisingly, more recently antivaxxers have been trying to blame COVID-19 vaccines for causing cancer, sometimes (as is their common practice) totally misrepresenting unrelated research to make their false claims. They’re still at it, of course, packaging this old lie in a new form. Specifically an Idaho doctor and anti masker, Dr. Ryan Cole, is claiming that he’s seeing a huge increase in endometrial cancer since the vaccines have rolled. Sure, he was doing this two months ago, but now he’s being amplified again, which led me to decide that it’s worth discussing, given that I missed addressing this bit of misinformation when it first surfaced.

Here’s the video of Dr. Cole, which is included in an article by conspiracy crank Mike Adams entitled THE VACCINE-CANCER ATROCITY: Like clockwork, most vaccinated Americans will lose immune function by Christmas and start growing accelerated CANCER tumors that will kill them over the next ten years:

Here are the sorts of claims Dr. Cole has been making:

In a video produced by the Idaho state government’s “Capitol Clarity” project, Cole revealed how he is now seeing a 2,000 percent chronic illness increase in folks who took Donald “father of the vaccine” Trump’s “Operation Warp Speed” injections.

“Since January 1, in the laboratory, I’m seeing a 20-times increase of endometrial cancers over what I see on an annual basis,” Cole stated in the video.

“I’m not exaggerating at all because I look at my numbers year over year, and I’m like ‘Gosh, I’ve never seen this many endometrial cancers before.’”

Cole revealed these and other statistics at a March 18 event, telling Idahoans that the so-called “vaccines” for the Fauci Flu are invoking a “reverse HIV” type of autoimmune response in people’s bodies.

A normal, well-functioning immune system has two types of cells that keep the body healthy: “helper” T-cells, also known as CD4, and “killer” T-cells, also known as CD8 cells. In the “fully vaccinated,” there is a massive suppression of “helper” T-cells, Cole warns, which leaves the patient susceptible to an array of illnesses.

“Post-vaccine, what we are seeing is a drop in your killer T-cells, in your CD8 cells,” Cole stated. “And what do CD8 cells do? They keep all other viruses in check.”

Apparently, Dr. Cole has been peddling this message since January. In fact, here’s the truly depressing thing about Dr. Cole’s misinformation. Note the “Capitol Clarity Project” mentioned above. Sadly, for residents of the state of Idaho, its official government health sources have been repeatedly hosting Dr. Cole and amplifying his misinformation:

Cole came into prominence in January of 2021 when the Idaho government put in place an effort called “Capitol Clarity,” with the stated goal of keeping Idahoans informed about the facts surrounding COVID-19.  

Capitol Clarity has since hosted Dr. Ryan Cole multiple times to provide information to the public about vaccine safety and COVID-19 measures more broadly.  

The videos of Dr. Cole at these events, which were originally posted on YouTube, have since been deleted by the Google owned video platform in a continual effort of censorship by Big Tech. 

Before we get into his claims, who is Dr. Ryan? He states in the video that he is a board-certified anatomic and clinical pathologist trained at the Mayo Clinic, is licensed in 12 states, and runs what he describes as the “largest independent laboratory in the state of Idaho.” What Mike Adams does not mention (of course) is that Dr. Steven Kohtz, the president of the Idaho Medical Association Board of Trustees, and Susie Keller, the CEO of the Idaho Medical Association have teamed up to lodge a formal complaint to the Idaho Board of Medicine about Dr. Cole’s activity, which—surprise! surprise!—includes prescribing ivermectin, the anti-helminthic (roundworm) medicine most commonly used for veterinary applications but also used in humans that does not work against COVID-19. Of course, I can’t help but note that a pathologist, like Dr. Cole, generally does not see patients, except as parts removed during surgeries and biopsies, or in the morgue and should not be prescribing drugs to anyone, but that’s never stopped COVID-19 deniers before.

Dr. Cole, unsurprisingly, starts out by claiming that the vaccines are “experimental vaccines,” saying that this is “very important.” As I’ve pointed out more times than I can remember, this is a common antivax talking point that conflates a legal definition of “experimental” or “investigational” with a scientific one. Because the vaccines at the time had been approved by the FDA for use under an “emergency use authorization” (EUA), by law they had to be listed as “investigational.” Again, that’s a legal definition. From a scientific definition, these vaccines had been found to be safe and effective in large randomized clinical trials involving tens of thousands of people before the EUA had been issued. By September, when this video was made, these vaccines had been administered to hundreds of millions of people with an excellent safety record. Similarly, Dr. Cole goes on to blame the worse outcomes in the US to our being a nation, apparently, of vitamin D deficient fatties. (He didn’t use those words, but it’s a common theme in antivax literature to blame the victim for any bad outcome, and obesity and type II diabetes are definitely risk factors for severe disease and poor outcomes and death from COVID-19.)

Oddly enough, he also claims that the Delta variant of SARs-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19, is, although more transmissible, less virulent and deadly, even though the evidence shows that, at best, it is no more virulent than the original strain, with some evidence suggesting that it is more, not less, virulent in that it is more likely to put its victims in the hospital. Dr. Cole cites data from India, where (or so he claims) the Delta strain is several times less deadly than the original strain as he goes on and on about how viruses “naturally evolve” to be less lethal (something that can happen but is nowhere near universally true), and failing to note that the death statistics from India are definitely a massive undercount, perhaps by as much as factor of ten.

So how does this increased risk of cancer supposedly happen? As is commonly the case with antivaxxers, Dr. Cole starts handwaving about immunology and how “natural immunity” (in reality, post-infection immunity) is so much better than vaccine-induced immunity, while echoing Dr. Hooman Noorchasm’s fear mongering about how it is supposedly dangerous to vaccinate someone who has already been infected by COVID-19. Claiming that different strains will outrun the vaccine’s ability to induce immunity, Dr. Cole then claims that we “early therapies” for this virus, including (of course!) ivermectin. Hilariously, he cites Dr. Peter McCullough, a quack whom we’ve met before who likes to claim that COVID-19 vaccines are deadly and that his protocols reduce the death rate from COVID-19 by 86%. I’ve discussed the study that produced the figure of a mortality reduction of 86% before. It came from an awful meta-analysis of ivermectin that included downright fraudulent papers. One also can’t help but note that one of the early papers by Frontline COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC Alliance) and his quack protocol that involves ivermectin, which claims to result in a 75% decrease in the death rate from COVID-19, has been retracted due to bad math.

Of course, it’s little surprise to learn that Dr. Cole is a member of the FLCCC, whose members have been grifting their little grifting hearts out over ivermectin:

Next up, Dr. Cole repeats the handwaving he’s been repeating since January. Basically, after pointing out how a “normal, well-functioning immune system” has two types of cells that keep the body healthy, namely “helper” T-cells, also known as CD4, and “killer” T-cells, also known as CD8 cells. In the “fully vaccinated,” Dr. Cole claims, there is a “massive suppression” of helper T-cells, which leaves the patient susceptible to an array of illnesses, claiming:

“Post-vaccine, what we are seeing is a drop in your killer T-cells, in your CD8 cells,” Cole stated. “And what do CD8 cells do? They keep all other viruses in check.”

I kept trying to find out what science published in the peer-reviewed literature Dr. Cole was citing. I couldn’t find it. (I was amused, though, at how one of the papers listed after the Brighteon video was this one, which was a randomized controlled clinical trial that actually found no difference between ivermectin and placebo in preventing hospitalization after COVID-19 infection. It’s almost as though they expect that the rubes won’t actually click on the links and read the actual papers.

As for the claim that the mRNA vaccines somehow suppress T-helper cells, I’m not the only one who looked for the source. Health Feedback thinks it’s found the source, and—surprise! surprise!—just as antivaxxers did when they claimed that mRNA vaccines cause cancer by shutting down tumor suppressor genes, Dr. Cole appears to be completely misrepresenting the science, science co-authored by Katalin Karikó, one of the pioneering scientists who were integral to the development of mRNA vaccines:

The UK Column article claimed that the study used RNA modifications to “turn off [T]oll-like receptors”. But no such thing is described in the study by Karikó et al. The modifications and their effects are associated with the modified RNA only, and don’t change the ability of TLRs to detect other microbial components.

To use an analogy, modifying RNA is like putting on camouflage to evade detection by sentries guarding a border. But those sentries remain capable of detecting other intruders that don’t have the camouflage.

Furthermore, as Karikó et al. noted, the modifications used in the study are also observed in nature, and mammalian RNA is naturally replete with such modifications. If the article’s claim that such modifications weaken the immune system were true to begin with, then such pre-existing modifications alone would be enough to weaken the immune system even without the COVID-19 vaccines.

In short, the article misrepresented the study’s findings and is inconsistent with real-world observations.

Basically, this research was designed to get around a problem with mRNA, which is that it is unstable and vulnerable to the body’s defense mechanisms. For someone who claims to have a lot of experience in immunology, Dr. Cole doesn’t know immunology or molecular biology. Either that, or he’s intentionally misrepresenting the science. Take your pick.

Dr. Ryan Cole, COVID-19 crank
Isn’t it scary that Idaho considers this crank to be a reliable source of medical information?

Also, there’s zero evidence for an increase in cancer rates attributed to COVID-19 vaccines. For one thing, even if COVID-19 vaccines could cause cancer (and there’s no evidence that they can), it would take years, decades even, to see this effect. Seeing “200 times more endometrial cancer) in March 2020, only three months after the vaccines had been widely distributed under the FDA’s EUA, would, even if accurate, not be good evidence that the vaccine caused it, because how many of the women from whom those endometrial biopsies came would even have been vaccinated by then? Also, even those who were would have received the vaccine at most three months before Dr. Cole made the claim. That’s far too short a time to cause endometrial cancer. As a board certified pathologist, Dr. Cole should know this. I bet he does know this, too, but is counting on the fact that most people don’t know much about cancer biology and how long it takes for cancer to develop, even at its most rapid. It doesn’t matter anyway, because much more reputable sources have reported no evidence of a massive spike in endometrial cancer, melanoma, or any other cancers since COVID-19 vaccines rolled out.

Adams also cites a less famous crank than Dr. Cole, one whom I hadn’t heard of before, named Dr. Paul Cottrell, who apparently believes that SARS-CoV-2 is the result of a US government bioweapons “antidote” gone awry. Cottrell basically explicitly claims that the chemical modifications to the mRNA used in the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines were designed to “suppress the immune system.”

That’s probably why Adams writes, having been forced to acknowledge that cancer mortality has been steadily declining for decades:

The vaccine holocaust, it seems, is going to be felt as a “cancer tsunami” that will somehow be blamed on everything else except vaccines.

From 1999 – 2019, cancer death rates plunged from 200 per 100,000 population to 146 per 100,000 population. (Source: CDC.gov) For all of 2019, there were almost 600,000 cancer deaths reported in the United States. The CDC has not yet published data for 2020.

Data from 2021 will be published in 2023, and data from 2022 will be published in 2024 if it maintains the same schedule.

Prediction: 2022 cancer fatalities will explode above one million fatalities, and cancer death rates will stay elevated for the next decade, all due to covid vaccines that began in 2021. However, we won’t see these data until 2024.

There’s no nefarious reason for these delays; it just takes that long to compile the statistics. Cancer statistics are generally published every January, a little more than a year after the most recent year in the statistics (e.g,, the 2022 report will be published in a couple of months, a little more than a year after 2020 ended). Also, I’ll take that bet on Adams’ prediction that cancer fatalities will “explode” above 5 million, which would be a more than 50% increase in a year, something that’s never been seen before. In any event, any oncologist or cancer biologist knows that Adams’ prediction is nonsense. Again, even in the incredibly unlikely event that COVID-19 vaccines increase the risk of cancer, we probably would not see the effect in 2021, 2022, or likely even five years from now. Maybe in ten years we would see it. Of course, there is no known biological mechanism by which these vaccines cause cancer, hence all the handwaving about unproven and speculative mechanisms by these cranks.

Using dubious “predictions” based on misrepresentations of science by Dr. Cole and Dr. Cottrell, plus other sources, Adams goes on to make what can only be called a social Darwinist-like, eugenics sort of prediction:

The final point to understand in all this is that certain professions have much higher rates of vaccine obedience, meaning they will suffer far higher-than-normal rates of cancer mortality in the coming years. Those professions include health care (doctors, nurses, etc.), school teachers, first responders, government workers and tech industry workers.

Realistically, we should expect to see an accelerated die-off of people in these industries from 2022 – 2031 due to vaccine effects, both medium term and long term.

This means health care is going to experience an unprecedented staffing crisis for many years to come, especially as members of the public who also took the same deadly vaccines wind up in hospital emergency rooms, suffering from heart attacks, strokes, respiratory disorders, neurological disorders, and so on. This is already happening across US hospitals, right this very minute. And it’s going to get far worse this winter.

At the same time, people who don’t have jobs will be spared from the death wave because they aren’t forced into taking vaccines. So we’re going to see very high survival rates among welfare recipients and the unemployed, while the employed (productive) members of the economy are killed off in record numbers.

Think about what that means for America’s largest cities as the first responders, doctors and productive workers die off, leaving behind the welfare recipients and otherwise unemployed people. This is obviously going to thrust US cities into chaos, lawlessness and desperation — which seems to be the No. 1 goal of Marxist Democrats and Joe Biden puppetmasters.

As an aside, I can’t help but observe one thing that I’ve never been able to figure out about conspiracy theories of the type peddled by Adams above. Why? Why would any leader want to kill off his nation’s most productive citizens and generate lawlessness and chaos? After all, what Adams neglects to mention is that the military is being required to take the vaccine as well, which means that, even if Adams ravings were true, presumably President Biden’s New World Order “puppetmasters” won’t even have the troops for him to use to impose “control” on the populace. And what about the simple observation that there is a huge difference in the willingness to take the vaccine between liberals and conservatives, with liberals far more willing to take the vaccine than conservatives? Wouldn’t that mean that more liberals will be dying off in the next ten years, something that, presumably, Adams would like?

So many questions.

I realize that dealing with Adams’ conspiracy theories is sometimes like shooting the proverbial fish in a barrel, given how over-the-top he always is. However, he is merely taking a viral video by Dr. Cole, adding to it a lesser known video by Dr. Cottrell, and using the nonsense in them to spread fear of COVID-19 vaccines as horrible cancer-causing agents that will kill off the most educated and “productive” citizens—shades of Ayn Rand and Atlas Shrugged, only with an involuntary removal of the “makers” from society this time!—and thus spreading chaos. Still, as bonkers as it is, Adams’ conspiracy theory is, at its core, nothing more than a variation on a very old antivaccine theme, that vaccines cause cancer.

And I haven’t even gone into the claims that the vaccine causes AIDS mentioned in the articles.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

171 replies on “Dr. Ryan Cole and Mike Adams: Fear mongering about cancer and COVID-19 vaccines”

I was wondering about the point you made when I first read this – the timing. The fact that it sounded much too soon, even if the vaccines could in some way cause cancer, which, as you point out, is highly unlikely (read: impossible), to see anything.

I’m glad to hear an expert say that’s the case.

And I, too, suspect this one knows what he’s saying isn’t true.

Also, maybe put a note to ask Mile Adam’s in 2022. The problem with short prophecies with a date is that we can check them and call it out, when.

We can check out this particular prophecy in a around two months. The ACS cancer statistics paper is usually published in the middle of January every year.

Other fun facts: Cole has described Covid-19 vaccination as a “poisonous attack” and “needle rape”. He sits on an Idaho regional health board (!). His application for board appointment mentions that he is a member of the College of American Pathologists (big whoopee, membership is open to any board-certified pathologist or pathology trainee)* and that he has served as a media spokesperson for them. Not a good look for the CAP.

“Seeing “200 times more endometrial cancer) in March 2020, only three months after the vaccines had been widely distributed under the FDA’s EUA, would, even if accurate, not be good evidence that the vaccine caused it, because how many of the women from whom those endometrial biopsies came would even have been vaccinated by then? Also, even those who were would have received the vaccine at most three months before Dr. Cole made the claim. That’s far too short a time to cause endometrial cancer. As a board certified pathologist, Dr. Cole should know this.”

As I suggested in a comment elsewhere on RI, if Cole’s rate of endometrial cancer diagnosis has jumped that markedly without a rational explanation (like his lab starting to receive biopsies from a large OB-GYN practice), then it might be a good idea to have an outside expert or two review those cases for accuracy (note: Cole’s reported pathology subspecialty is dermatopathology, i.e. skin diseases. Oh yeah, he says his melanoma diagnoses have also jumped since Covid-19 vaccines came into use). And the reported claim of him seeing a drastic increase in chronic disease in Covid-19 vaccinated persons is curious, seeing that vaccination status is not a parameter typically supplied to pathologists signing out biopsies or performing lab tests.**

*Boasting of being a CAP member is akin to trumpeting oneself as a Fellow of the American Academy of Pediatrics (a certain antivax pediatrician constantly refers to himself as an FAAP), another professional organization open to anyone who’s passed the pediatrics board exam.
**getting clinicians to supply _relevant_ patient information when submitting biopsies is like pulling teeth, often necessitating a search of hospital electronic medical records and/or calling the doc’s office and negotiating their phone tree.

Another stain on the reputation of pathologists. Will it never end?

That photo is quite amusing. All of that stuff on the shelves in that office, which can’t have anything to do with Pathology, makes it look like he works in a hair salon. Perhaps that’s where he belongs.

Hope that stuff on the shelves isn’t lab reagents properly belonging in a safety cabinet.

Maybe they’re his beekeeping supplies, or a stash of ivermectin and other Covid-19 remedies.

Ha ha! Hair salons! Exactly right.
However some woo-meisters/ supplement stores do carry items that look just like that – collagen, liquid proteins, aloe vera, extracts, altie remedies.

My immediate thought was that these were supplements. Multiple containers exactly the same support that thought.

Orac said “.. we would probably not see the effect in 2021, 2022, or likely even five years from now.”
As we learned from the long term consequences of 9/11 on people who worked on the site or lived nearby.
Orac also recognises that Cole knows that his audience’s lack of SBM background allows him to confabulate theories.

I’ve noticed that woo-meisters I survey often make predictions ( medical, social, economic) that take place in a year, 18- 24 months and imagine that this time frame is short enough to scare the audience sufficiently BUT long enough that they might forget precise dates and
scenarios. Like Nostradamus’ predictions, there is a lot of wiggle room concerning dates and exactness. ( However, some of these guys leave their old predictions/ rants up at their sites!)

Often, I listen to Adams’ broadcasts whilst I do other work but lately, he has gone totally batshit nearly daily: usually, aliens, demons or liberals are involved. Of his audience, do they not HEAR what he says and then re-evaluate his meandering CTs? I know that if a mechanic or plumber spouted such nonsense I might mistrust his vocational expertise or AT LEAST not want to reward him for what he does understand.
Similarly, Null. Followers listen to such swill and then take medical/ health advice from them? One of the latest tales involves German footballers dying/ or CV issues en masse from Covid vaccines: my SO watches sports channels that include news about North American and European teams but he hasn’t heard anything. I suppose woo-meisters get secret information that would terrify us mortals.

Football-players, or soccer-players?
I watch the German morningshow every day, but I never heard anything of football-players (I think that would be rugby (yes I know there are some differences between rugby and American football, but I’m not sure there are many American football-teams in Europe)), or soccer-players dying.

I know there are some differences between rugby and American football

Some differences?! Easier to classify them by the few things they have in common: played on a pitch with an ovoid ball, by people who are often quite big, and tackling is allowed.

If you’re watching German TV, than you can be pretty sure that anyone called a football player without any further qualification will be a soccer player.

@ prl
I know, but what we call football, or rather ‘voetbal’ or ‘Fußball’, is known in the US as soccer.

@Renate

But here in the greatest of us of a, we are tribal. Those teams sniff each other’s butts and take showers together. I would call them fags but that would be unsportsmanlike of me to do so. Needless to say, when a member breaks protocol of the tribe then he should be put into the pot and cooked and supply pr0tein to the rest of the tribe. This is not the correct thread. Is it.

I assume that all the other labs doing cancer screening around the world are being paid to keep quiet then?

As an anatomical pathologist at a medium-sized community hospital (over 20 000) surgical specimens a year, I am in a good position to notice a 200 times increase in endometrial malignancies since the start of COVID vaccination. Our group routinely reviews all new malignant diagnoses using a multi-headed microscope. This supposed increase simply hasn’t happened. Given that the vaccine uptake in our region in Canada is much higher than in Idaho, our increase in endometrial cancers should be even higher if what Dr Cole says is true. It hasn’t happened.
Sadly, there’s a tree in Idaho that’s missing its pathologist.

Snort.

It has taken 2 years to get this far.

Is there an anti-vaxxer on the staff of the staff of the Karolinska Institute who used a fake name for their papers? Or is my memory playing tricks on me.

Maybe if had had followed the science, he wouldn’t have mocked the dead.

iomcworld.org/articles/suspected-cardiovascular-side-effects-of-two-covid19-vaccines.pdf

From Dr. Sohrab Luchmedial twitter page
6:43 AM July 10, 2021

The collective arguement to protect those who CANNOT get the vaccine who WANT protection – immune compromised , the very young – the homeless and disenfranchised. For those that won’t get the shot for selfish reasons – whatever – I won’t cry at their funeral

He bragged about getting his 3rd booster,

from his twitter post October 24 2021

“Vax shot 3: Electric Flu-Galoo

No lineups, great plot and direction, average special effects. Give it two thumbs up.”

15 days later he dies in his sleep, he was 52.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/sohrab-lutchmedial-cardiac-surgeon-obituary-1.6242359

Do you believe the tripe you and your socks post or do you believe that you’re so much smarter than others that you can magically convince them that your tripe is true by the employment of extreme arrogance and misdirection? (Hint: it isn’t working.)

Please tell me what is not true in what I posted?
the cite was from a peer reviewed research and published research.
the two twitter post are still up for everyone to see.
And the CBC reported his death

Yet you call it tripe and untrue.

I believe that it was his arrogance that was on display and Karma was the result.

@Charles: “the cite was from a peer reviewed research and published research”

A broken URL to a predatory publisher? Indeed that is evidence, just not of what you think.

The irony here is that no-one advocating for vaccination pretends that vaccines—or any other effective medical treatment—is entirely without risk. So you didn’t need to try that hard. But when the choice is between a handful of deaths probably due to vaccines, or hundreds of thousands of deaths from the disease itself, only lunatic or a fraudster would declare vaccines to be the far worse. And no credible research you can find will validate that opinion, leaving you just screaming into the wilderness: all bile and hysteria and vomit; nothing more.

And, hey, you do you. The quicker the rest of humanity sees you expose yourselves for what you truly are, the sooner it will turn its back in disgust and pay you zero further attention. And that, to a narcissist, is worse than death itself.

So what’s your point here, Charles, other than to shit on the dead which is SOP for you classless fucks?

There have been, what, a handful of deaths for which COVID vaccines are suspected to be responsible. Compared to millions of deaths for which COVID definitely was. By your logic we shouldn’t even begin to vaccinate until we have a 100% perfect vaccine (an impossible standard, btw); and if tens of millions more have to die from the disease in the meantime that is just more grist on the mill to feed your malignant egos.

Meantime, people continue to die of various unrelated causes both before and after vaccination. You have presented no evidence that the vaccine was the cause in this case; just a low lazy character attack on someone who after two years no doubt spent caring for a lot of COVID victims clearly had his fill of your denier shit and wasn’t afraid to tweet it.

And even if it was the vaccine (since no effective medical treatment is entirely without risk, as everyone except you acknowledges), the simple fact remains that the disease kills a million times more. That’s cold hard unemotional unforgiving unavoidable maths. Which I appreciate none of you narcissistic fucknuckles will ever get because none of you are capable of counting past One. So don’t even pretend that you are concerned by other lives lost, when we both already know that the only person on the planet you care about is yourself.

You lie about the disease. You lie about the treatments. You lie about the medics. You lie about the patients. You lie about all those who survived, and all those who died. You lie about reality itself. An endless spew of lies, all in service to your malignant narc egos. Big lies and anti-vaxxers. Two disgusting tastes that go together like neo Nazis and…well, anti-vaxxers. Piss off.

has: ” You lie about reality itself”

An apt description.

I no longer engage with trolls but it might be interesting to see how they manage to explain the dire and monumental consequences of vaccines when:

a vaccine causes or accelerates the process of cell division so that normal or nearly normal cells cross the divide into malignancy almost immediately ( since Covid vaccines haven’t been around that long).

Long time readers of RI might recall the extremely complex diagramme Orac uses to explain what steps need occur for cancer to happen. Yet alties imagine a simple one step process that happens quickly which reflects their level of (mis) understanding.

a vaccine transforms brain development causing autism in “normal” children almost immediately ( Wakefield said 2 weeks IIRC) yet we know that the anomalies in autistic brains are there prenatally- the PFC starts out with excess cells which have poor interconnections, disorganisation into layers and underdeveloped cells as well as other areas’ differences.
Did the vaccines “grow” extra cells, damage them and disconnect them?
Yet they claim their children were ‘fine’ until the vaccine. Their level of (mis) understanding blinds them to relevant research that -btw- is NOT new and comes from multiple avenues of investigation: observation of children, autopsy, abortion, comparative anatomy, studies of meds/ nutrition/ poisons on gestation, imagery studies etc.

Lying or blindness to reality, who can tell?

@Denice: “a vaccine causes or accelerates the process of cell division so that normal or nearly normal cells cross the divide into malignancy almost immediately”

As I’ve remarked elsewhere:

“I blame our education systems, which like to teach our children that “learning” is committing collections of facts recited to them by an authority figure into memory and regurgitating them faithfully on demand (secondary school exams, TV quiz shows, and so on). We ought to teach the little ankle biters basic epistemology as their first step into the world; but then they’d very quickly show all us adults up, and we can’t be having that.”

When all knowledge is reduced to “Stated Facts” and the processes by which that knowledge was arrived at not understood at all, it is no surprise that he who states his facts the loudest and most confidently is Correct.

And every ideologue and grifter at every level of society (including the bad end of science) knows it, so can run rings around good science with all of its obligate caveats, uncertainties, and error bars. And they will keep on doing so unless and until we teach all of our kids that there is no shame in being wrong or saying “I don’t know”; only in doubling down on our wrongness and ignorance through arrogance, fear, and having never been shown how to do better for ourselves.

Federal Appeals Court Affirms Stay on Biden Vaccine Mandate

usnews.com/news/top-news/articles/2021-11-12/federal-appeals-court-affirms-stay-on-biden-vaccine-mandate

Yeah, there goes the whispers again; ‘I wonder what, smarty-pants antivaxxer, Greg thinks?’

First, I would like to point out how it’s not even being denied that the toll-like receptors are getting shutdown. ‘For every action, there is a reaction’ be damned.

Second, there is this…

For one thing, even if COVID-19 vaccines could cause cancer (and there’s no evidence that they can), it would take years, decades even, to see this effect

Is this really the case, Orac? Some fast growing cancers such as lymphomas and small-cell lung cancer have doubling times as short as 40 days. Consider then that these cancers at 1mm (hardly detectable on a scan) can reach a very detectable 1cm size in roughly a year; and, we are assuming this is normal growth that is occurring with the immune system and t-cells still fighting such cancers.

Imagine then shutting down the toll-like receptors and impeding the t-cells from doing their job;
would this not lead to such cancers progressing in an even shorter timeframe, and validating Dr Coles’ observation that he is seeing more cancers?

More whispers: ‘The reprehensible a-hole might have a point, but, even if that was the case, the cancers were already there and not caused by shutting down the toll-like receptors.’ Wasn’t it? We know many cancers progress because they reach a large size, overwhelming the t-cells. A normal immune system and t-cells may be able to shutdown, or resolve, a sub 1mn cancer, but not so for an impaired one.

No, the “reprehensible a-hole” (to use your semi-apt self-description*) does _not_ have a point.

Cancers generally take many years, sometimes several decades to develop following exposure to triggers including radiation and other carcinogenic agents. We commonly see small cell lung cancer occurring after decades or a lifetime of smoking. Once that tumor manifests, it typically grows quickly – but the latency period before occurrence is lengthy. Leukemias and lymphomas due to external agents do not manifest overnight either.

Endometrial carcinoma (which Cole claims are deluging his lab) commonly is preceded by precancerous changes, i.e. atypical hyperplasia. If Cole was correct, he also should have been inundated by biopsies with such findings, though he doesn’t mention this.

If Covid-19 vaccines caused cancer (despite lack of any rational mechanism to explain it*), it would take many years to show up and even longer to recognize. Cole’s “data” is not believable.

“feeble assholish troll is a better fit.
**Antivaxers have frequently alleged that vaccines dangerously rev up the immune system and cause autoimmune diseases (unfounded) – yet now they want to simultaneously argue that vaccines suppress the immune system to cause cancer? And that it’s a near immediate effect instead of the long-term boogeyman they previously warned against?

Logic and consistency have never been antivaxers’ strong suits.

Dangerous One, latency period is irrelevant. Any given person can have a cancer growing in them that is on the cusp of detection. Upsetting the immune cells fighting that cancer will shorten that window. Indeed, if mRNA vaccination is upsetting those immune cells, then we will observe more cancers in the Covid window.

Here is an analogy to further illustrate the point. Say it’s Jan 2021 and mRNA vaccination has put 10 extra trucks (cancer) on the road, and these trucks will take a year to arrive at the truckyard. Of course, The Dangerous One and Orac will say we shouldn’t see 10 extra trucks arriving at the truckyard in Feb 2021 because enough time hasn’t pass for the 10 extra trucks to arrive.

What is Orac and The Dangerous One missing. They are ignoring that mRNA also boosted, sped up, all the trucks on the way that started before 2021. Of course, it is likely that we will see extra trucks arriving in Feb 2021.

Oooooh. Well done Greg. You’ve created the perfect antivax scenario. Now you can blame any cancer on vaccination, even AFTER admitting that vaccination wasn’t the cause.

We already knew about your qualifications in immunology but now it turns out that you are also a qualified oncologist. I’m thinking that your real career path should lead you to the Navy though. All that hand waving should make you a genius at semaphore.

I had a comment for Greg about his “brilliant” analogy involving trucks. Then I remembered some advice about wrestling pigs. so I’ll say no more.

@Greg Why do you think vaccines damage immune system ? Vaccines boost it, and create immune response. It is natural immunity that comes, in many cases, with immune system suppression.

Greg Why do you think vaccines damage immune system ?

Aarno, just something ‘silly’ I was reading from Fohse et al.

Intriguingly, the BNT162b2 vaccine induces reprogramming of innate immune responses as well, and this needs to be taken into account: in combination with strong adaptive immune responses, this could contribute to a more balanced inflammatory reaction during COVID-19 infection, or it may contribute to a diminished innate immune response towards the virus.

https://europepmc.org/article/PPR/PPR334978

Antivax pig wrestling is greatly simplified by the unstable nature of the beast.

It’s easily flipped over, and one can simply walk away as it thrashes and squeals incoherently.

Well done Greg. You’ve created the perfect antivax scenario. Now you can blame any cancer on vaccination, even AFTER admitting that vaccination wasn’t the cause

Numb, as I explained, if mRNA vaccination is impeding the immune system from stopping the progression of cancers, it is CAUSING those cancers. It’s not just an issue of whether the cancers start
or not, but also whether they are progressing.

Right up Orac’s league, there is now a big controversy in breast cancer screening suggesting we are overdiagnosing small tumors that ordinarily wouldn’t progress. What is preventing them from progressing, Numb? That’s the immune system. Numb, why is early stage (stage 1) breast cancers treated mainly with just surgery and not also with chemo? That’s because the thinking is the immune system will deal with any lingering cells that the surgery missed, and best not to have the chemo drugs impairing it.

Numb, if mRNA vaccination is indeed impairing the immune system (and, full disclosure, I haven’t read enough to come to a firm conclusion), why do you think this will not lead to the progression of cancers — or CAUSE them?

https://www.bcaction.org/how-routine-mammography-screening-leads-to-overdiagnosis-overtreatment/

(and, full disclosure, I haven’t read enough to come to a firm conclusion)

Well, knock me over with a feather! Has that ever stopped you before?

Will this be another chase? Watch me start another one…..

So, now that I have established that cancers can appear quickly when they are in progressive states, let’s reexamine Orac’s and Choir second defense that the toll-like receptors are not getting shutdown and there is no suppression of innate immunity. For the layperson, when we are dealing with cancers, innate immunity is most important. Those immune cells are the first to bounce into malignant cells that are expressing abnormal proteins on their surface. Also, more often, they are the first to be called to the inflammatory scene when cancerous cells encroach on normal cells.

Now, the defense goes that mRNA vaccination includes a code for that specific RNA to evade the toll-like receptors and nothing else is affected: yet, we have Fohse et al and now Andres et al down bellow telling us that the innate response is getting suppressed. Orac and Choir, please account.

However, they also showed that the vaccine altered the production of inflammatory cytokines by innate immune cells following stimulation with both specific (SARS-CoV-2) and non-specific (viral, fungal and bacterial) stimuli.

Following vaccination, innate immune cells had a reduced response to toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4), TLR7 and TLR8 – all ligands that play an important role in the immune response to viral infection.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210510/Research-suggests-Pfizer-BioNTech-COVID-19-vaccine-reprograms-innate-immune-responses.aspx

@Greg Firstly, the paper says that the authors found robust humoral and ellular response. So immune system is hardly damaged.
Secondly paper says that his could lead to more balanced innate system reaction.
Thirdly, how long you think this effect lasts ? It seems yo be a classic competive inhibition to me, ending after mRNA has been hydrolysed.
Actually adaptive immune system shows same effect: second challenge with a new antigen will have a smaller effect, which does not mean that immune sysytem is damaged.
Purpose of vaccines is to create a immune response, so damaging immune system would be counterproductive

@Greg Do you know how immune system fight cancer ? You statement seems to be even emptier tha usual., There are other cancer protection mechamisms, too.

@Aarno

Secondly paper says that his could lead to more balanced innate system reaction.

You are leave stuff out, Aarno.

this could contribute to a more balanced inflammatory reaction during COVID-19 infection, or it may contribute to a diminished innate immune response towards the virus.

Aarno again…

Thirdly, how long you think this effect lasts ? It seems yo be a classic competive inhibition to me, ending after mRNA has been hydrolysed

Quoting myself…

Consider, a 1mm malignant mass has around 1 million cancerous cells. How much does a 1cm mass contains? That’s 100 million cells! What is this telling us? It’s telling us that shutting down the immune system even briefly can lead to a steep exponential rise in tumor cells that may overwhelm the T-cells.

I think it will last too long, Aarno.

Yet, Aarno, you really didn’t answer the question. Why are Fohse et al and Andres et al finding the innate response is being affected in these ways?

Greg Do you know how immune system fight cancer ? You statement seems to be even emptier tha usual., There are other cancer protection mechamisms, too.

Knock yourself out, Aarno. Tell us what other ‘mechanisms’ are available to fight cancer even when T-cells and other inflammatory cells are suppressed?

Again, for those keeping score, we are told mRNA vaccination includes a code that allows just the RNA to evade the toll-like receptors and nothing else is affected, yet Fohse et al found this…

Here we confirmed that BNT162b2 vaccination of healthy individuals induced effective humoral and cellular immunity against several SARS-CoV-2 variants. Interestingly, however, the BNT162b2 vaccine also modulated the production of inflammatory cytokines by innate immune cells upon stimulation with both specific (SARS-CoV-2) and non-specific (viral, fungal and bacterial) stimuli. The response of innate immune cells to TLR4 and TLR7/8 ligands was lower after BNT162b2 vaccination, while fungi-induced cytokine responses were stronger. In conclusion, the mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine induces complex functional reprogramming of innate immune responses, which should be considered in the development and use of this new class of vaccines

And, Andres et al found the same…

However, they also showed that the vaccine altered the production of inflammatory cytokines by innate immune cells following stimulation with both specific (SARS-CoV-2) and non-specific (viral, fungal and bacterial) stimuli.

Following vaccination, innate immune cells had a reduced response to toll-like receptor 4 (TLR4), TLR7 and TLR8 – all ligands that play an important role in the immune response to viral infection.

So, if it’s not that ‘trickery’ with the mRNA code that is accounting for this, what else is it?

Aarno asked how long the reduction in innate cytokines last, implying it was brief. Yet, what does Fohse et al say in their Method section?

Sera and blood samples were collected before the first administration of BNT162b2, three weeks after the first dose (right before the second dose), and two weeks after the second dose.

So, if finding reduced innate cytokines after the second dose, that would mean at least 5 weeks of impaired innate immunity.

Quoting myself…

So, if finding reduced innate cytokines after the second dose, that would mean at least 5 weeks of impaired innate immunity.

Throw in a third shot, that might be at leasr 8 weeks of suppressed innate immunity. Imagine giving cancer cells 8 weeks of green-light.

@Greg You do not have established that cancers appear fast, this is your imagination.
You cite a journo, that contradicts your previous report (which said that some TLRs were upregulated. Stick with Bohse.
As I said, it is natural that answer to the second challenge is milder (innate immune system iis have already been activated).
You did not have told us how immuine system protect against cancer, either. Check the facts.

@Greg You did not cite T cell suppression. In fact, Bohse et al reported robust cellular immunity response (this has other is T cell for you). Innate immune system has other arms than Toll like receptors, check them.

Greg You did not cite T cell suppression. In fact, Bohse et al reported robust cellular immunity response (this has other is T cell for you). Innate immune system has other arms than Toll like receptors, check them.

Aarno, let’s clarify: Fohse et al essentially found robust adaptive immunity but suppressed innate immunity. That the T-ceĺls are heightened in the adaptive arm is irrelevant to the matter of why the cytokines are depressed in the innate arm.

So, Aarno, set everything else aside and answer why the innate response is suppressed. Again, we are trying to established whether it indeed has something to do with the ‘trickery’ played on the toll-like receptors, and even if it’s being argued that has nothing to do with it.

PS: Why am I always treated like such a badguy for wanting to argue the science?

@Greg Now T cells are irrelevant ? They do fight cancer. Immunity is not suppressed either, so your reference to cytokines is irrelevat. There is lower yo a new viral agent, because TLRs are already activated, otherwise response go out of hand. This does not last long, because mRNA has a short halflife.
Btw, TLRs revognize pathogens, or body’s response to them.

There is lower yo a new viral agent, because TLRs are already activated, otherwise response go out of hand.

That’s your speculation, Aarno, and, in lieu of Fohse et al being ‘surpised’ by the finding, I don’t know how much stock to put in that opinion. Also, yes the cause is important, but let us also talk of the consequences of the individual being vulnerable to pathogens, including cancers, while those TLR cytokines are suppressed: Aarno, you said this…

This does not last long, because mRNA has a short halflife.

How long are you thinking the suppression last, Aarno?

@Greg As I said, it is not suppression. Fohse et al speak about upregulation and downregulation of some TLRs, which it quite different thing,Half life of vaccine mRNA is here:
Holtkamp S, Kreiter S, Selmi A, Simon P, Koslowski M, Huber C, Türeci O, Sahin U. Modification of antigen-encoding RNA increases stability, translational efficacy, and T-cell stimulatory capacity of dendritic cells. Blood. 2006 Dec 15;108(13):4009-17. doi: 10.1182/blood-2006-04-015024. Epub 2006 Aug 29. PMID: 16940422.
Estimate is 24 h. MRNA is not needed after it is translated.

Greg As I said, it is not suppression. Fohse et al speak about upregulation and downregulation of some TLRs, which it quite different thing

Aarno, whether suppressed or ‘down-regulated’, we are dealing with cytokines that are very important in fighting pathogens, including cancers. Fohse et al spoke directly to this by explaining viral blockage might be diminished, as well as suggesting there might be interference with other vaccines

So, again, it might not be proven that mRNA vaccination is susceptible to ‘causing’ cancer, but it does appear that it is susceptible to ‘correlating’ with it.

@Greg Fohse et al said upregulated and down regulated. Do you think up regulation is suppression ?

@Gerg: “Yeah, there goes the whispers again; ‘I wonder what, smarty-pants antivaxxer, Greg thinks?’”

Rest assured, nobody here thinks that you think.

No one is shutting down toll-like receptors. The mRNA in the vaccines are modified to evade then just like mammalian RNA.

Quoting myself….

Consider then that these cancers at 1mm (hardly detectable on a scan) can reach a very detectable 1cm size in roughly a year; and, we are assuming this is normal growth that is occurring with the immune system and t-cells still fighting such cancers.

Consider, a 1mm malignant mass has around 1 million cancerous cells. How much does a 1cm mass contains? That’s 100 million cells! What is this telling us? It’s telling us that shutting down the immune system even briefly can lead to a steep exponential rise in tumor cells that may overwhelm the T-cells.

Fohse et al, or Andres et al (same paper!) Is real interesting. It reads ..

The effect of the BNT162b2 vaccination on innate immune responses may also indicate a potential to interfere with the responses to other vaccinations.

Reflect on that for a moment. If the concern is BNT162b2 suppression of innate immunity might interfere with the responses of other vaccines, then, really, how far fetch is it to think that it might also interfere with the immune response to cancers?

@Greg About interferecne with other vaccinations, you were actually right (if one speak about live virus vaccinations). But happens only in the case of common administration, which is not happening (remember the short half life of mRNA),

I attempted to explain some of the issues to ORAC’s poster (5 Nov 2021) “Go away, antivaxxer.”. Read the full court order and maybe you will finally understand this ‘mandate’ was never about public health, on top of that the president tells companies to ignore court orders.

William/Me
“Just a question, the Biden administration has moved back the vaccine mandate to the 4th of January 2022, from its original mandate date, IF the vaccine is such a immediate critical health issue and we have enough vaccine doses to give everyone the shots and could preform the needed shots in 1-4 weeks, why not move up the vaccination mandate to say the 1st of December 2021?”

From the court order

“But this kind of thinking belies the premise that any of this is truly an emergency. Indeed, underinclusiveness of this sort is often regarded as a telltale sign that the government’s interest in enacting a liberty-restraining pronouncement is not in fact “compelling.”

William/Me
“You know as well as anyone, the federal government, first does not act/respond this fast and second doesn’t have the capacity to receive or process the information. OSHA only has about 1,500 inspectors for the whole US. The company I work for has about 500 employees and I have been at this company for 10 years and we have not had an OSHA inspection in those 10 years, You really believe that 1,500 OSHA inspectors could be trained to implement the mandate in under 6 months to a year and inspect the over 500,000 companies with over 100 employees in the US ?”

From the court order

“ involves broad medical considerations that lie outside of OSHA’s core competencies”

dl.airtable.com/.attachments/db446ada300c17b1c8e3a6530561a46f/e7ff5065/BSTHoldingsvOSHAOrder.pdf

I assume that OSHA is a US equivalent of our UK Health and Safety Executive?

Do you think that the HSE has the resources to check every company on a continuous basis to ensure that they are following all of the relevant legislation?

I guarantee that they do not.

Instead, they lay out rules that companies and employees are expected to follow. They audit on whatever schedule is feasible. They receive reports of health and safety breaches from whistleblowers or through official channels and this triggers a visit and inspection. When serious breaches are discovered, they come down on the company like a ton of bricks. Not reporting a RIDDOR accident is also a serious breach.

Do you think that the health and safety of company employees is an urgent consideration?

If OSHA find a company in breach of what ever rules are implemented, all they have to do is order work to stop. The rest will soon realise that it isn’t worth the risk. In the UK, individuals can be the ones in court explaining why someone died and individuals can suffer the consequences. Looks like you guys can do similar. Any employee who is found to have presented a false record of vaccination will be sacked.

No one expects the process to be perfect or instantaneous. Except anti-vaxxers, who work on the ‘all or nothing’ principle.

OSHA does not fine or fire individuals, only companies can do that. and who is going to prove that an employee presented a false record of vaccination and will be ‘sacked’ since the federal agency for enforcing the law is prevent from looking at medical records and the company is also prevented from looking at those same records.

You didn’t read the 22 pages of the court order.
The court cited the very same OSHA who over the past 8-9 months could not justify the mandate for all companies and at times fought against a mandate.

“Any argument OSHA may make that COVID-19 is a “new hazard[]” would directly contradict OSHA’s prior representation to the D.C. Circuit”

The Judges almost mocked OSHA for pointing out the fact that the mandate only applies to companies with more then100 workers and asked

“(purporting to save employees with 99 or more coworkers from a “grave danger” in the workplace, while making no attempt to shield employees with 98 or fewer coworkers from the very same threat).”….
“The most vulnerable worker in America draws no protection from the Mandate if his company employs 99 workers or fewer. The reason why? Because, as even OSHA admits, companies of 100 or more employers will be better able to administer (and sustain) the Mandate…….

‘Indeed, underinclusiveness of this sort is often regarded as a telltale sign that the government’s interest in enacting a liberty-restraining pronouncement is not in fact “compelling.”

I”n sum, as OSHA itself has previously acknowledged, an ETS appears to be a “poorly- suited approach for protecting workers against [COVID-19] because no standard that covers all of the Nation’s workers would protect all those workers equally.” See id. at 9.”

The government based their mandate on the urgency of the situation, but their own units of government denied there was a need for a mandate (including the President).

Again to my point as long as a company can not access the health records from an individual that can be verified by an insurance company, hospital, doctor because of HIPAA laws, the employees can tell an employer they have been vaccinated when in fact they haven’t been.

You wrote
“Do you think that the health and safety of company employees is an urgent consideration?’

You counteract yourself with you next question.

“No one expects the process to be perfect or instantaneous.”

You seem to make my point that the mandate won’t happen immediately so why the urgency of the mandate.
Above all, read the court order.

“You seem to make my point that the mandate won’t happen immediately so why the urgency of the mandate.”

No. Which is more evidence of urgent action? Starting a mandate now and playing catch up with your ability to check and enforce it, or waiting for months or years until you have a perfect monitoring system and THEN starting the mandate?

Do you assume that no one will follow the rules if they aren’t whipped into doing so? OSHA can always whip them retrospectively.

Denice

Here are your footballers and others

youtube.com/watch?v=1l34v01crsc&t=139s

You use wikipedia, so 14 players have died of cardiac arrest in just ten months of 2021, The next highest year for death in football was 8 in 2012

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_association_footballers_who_died_while_playing

You don’t double the number of deaths in a sport, without a reason, I am NOT claiming the vaccine caused these deaths it could be long term covid but something is wrong,

In the linked Wikipedia entry, the list of 14 football players who died while playing in 2021 lists 14 players who died of any cause. Of them, 6 are mentioned as having died of cardiac arrest or heart attack. A further player died of circulatory collapse. So 7 of them, not 14, with some firm attribution to cardiac issues.

Most of the others are described as having suffered an unspecified collapse while playing. Another were “died while playing”, and another died after “he collided with an opponent”.

Of the 8 deaths listed for 2012, 6 of them mention “heart attack”, “cardiac arrest” or “heart failure”. In one further case, “reports suggest cardiac arrest as the cause of death”, so 6 or 7.

So the number of deaths where there is an actual attribution of the cause of death to cardiac issues is pretty much the same as for 2021. I’m not sure why you seem to have decided that any “sudden collapse” is a cardiac arrest.

2010 also has a total of 8 deaths of football players on the field, 4 of them noted on the list as being heart failure of some type. Most of the rest were just listed as “sudden collapse”.

The numbers for 2009 were the same as for 2010, and while there were also some “sudden collapses” in the rest, some cases were definitely nothing to do with heart issues: “Collapsed after an incident with Denny Tarkas … Denny kicked Jumadi’s stomach when he was trying to get the ball. Jumadi died in a hospital 8 days later of severe infection”, “assaulted by thugs suspected to be fans of the opposition team. Adun died 3 days later from internal haemorrhage,”

These are all small numbers and they seem to bounce around quite a bit anyway. Even if 2021 was significantly more than normal (and I’m not sure that it is), a single year doesn’t make much of a trend.

I looked up some of those soccer player deaths.

Three occurred in men aged 49-57 (cause of death not given, but these happened at an age where myocardial infarctions are not uncommon).

Two others apparently experienced seizures, one after trauma during a match and reportedly “swallowed his tongue”, which is not possible.

I didn’t see any mention of myocarditis or clotting disorders.

Handwaving about Covid-19 vaccination without evidence…well, it’s very Kay.

By the way, there have been a lot of reports of athlete deaths due to Covid-19 infection, way more than the number Kay cited.

http://outlookindia.com/website/story/sports-news-covid-19-complete-list-of-sports-deaths-due-to-coronavirus-pandemic/349879

*I had my Moderna booster this morning. Luckily I had plenty of bacon for breakfast (bacon modulates toll-like receptors for maximal vaccine safety and effectiveness). My arm is sore though; better report that to VAERS.

I also got a Moderna booster and a slightly sore arm.
Like Gov Newsom of California, I did not get GBS or Bell’s Palsy.

Newsweek’s Yevgeny Kuklychev debunks the CTs surrounding the governor ( 11-11-21) told by RFKjr, Alex Jones and Mr Kirsch. The video circulating of Newsom’s “paralysis” was tampered with and the original is shown ( about Diwali).

In other news..
AoA’s Cathy Jameson teaches parents how to shield their children from pharma propaganda on children’s television.

We have some troglodytes that have responded to my post.

Denise asked about football players the have died. I supplied two sources of stories on athletes who have collapsed and died.

Of course the responders didn’t read the article, just the usual rants. The wiki article said that in 2009 the FIFA has to submit to a PCMA and an ECG and started this protocol in 2011-2012.

Since that time the number of players that have died was dropping (given that 1 player died from lightening, another hit his head on a concrete wall and two died of a collision with a team mates.) (one additional player has died since this wiki was updated).

NOWHERE in my post did I suggest that this was vaccine related, I suggested two possibilities. One was some may have had Covid (maybe mild) that effect/affected them, long term as we know covid can harm the heart.I am not sure but I believe all the FIFA players have to be vaccinated, so that may be a non issue.

“I am NOT claiming the vaccine caused these deaths it could be long term covid but something is wrong,”

That statement was made based on the past history 3 deaths in 2020, 3 deaths in 2019, 4 deaths in 2018, 7 deaths in in 2017. I don’t see a conspiracy, I do see a trend.

It would be an interesting study to compare those who have had Covid and those that didn’t (antibody test), And what exactly the autopsy said they died from (wiki is not clear on this in some cases, as wiki is not a top rated source to base an argument and the sources they cite are sometimes 3rd or 4th hand.)

Again something is clearly going on. 15 deaths in one year in a professional sport. The NFL has had on 1 death in 100 years (Church Hughes).

“NOWHERE in my post did I suggest that this was vaccine related, I suggested two possibilities.”

Right. Your FUD and innuendo. Nobody buys your innocent protestations, you weasel-worded JAQ-off. You all have a track record, you know. Or have you forgotten the visible slime trail extending many miles behind you?

You didn’t originally say that the player deaths in 2021 listed in the Wikipedia article had “collapsed and died”. You said that “14 players have died of cardiac arrest” (i.e. that all of the listed deaths in 2021 were due to cardiac arrest).

And I certainly read the linked article about the list of deaths of soccer players who had died while playing. I quoted numbers from it.

I don’t think that comparing the US NFL with the list of deaths of soccer players on WIkipedia is reasonable: the Wikipedia list is world-wide and across a wide range of competitions, including a suburban junior-league club in Australia (Thirroul Thunder), not just over the elite competition in a single country.

@Kay West

I believe all the FIFA players have to be vaccinated

That belief runs counter to the evidence:
Players will not have to be vaccinated to compete at Qatar World Cup

And the evidence was only a simple Google search for “FIFA covid vaccine” away.

FIFA has only recently even started to encourage players to get vaccinated against COVID:
FIFA urges players to get vaccinated, EPL lags on take-up (Oct 3 2021)

FIFA offered direct encouragement for footballers to get vaccinated on Sunday.

The first clear statement of its kind from world football’s governing body came as players were flying to countries for men’s World Cup qualifiers.

[my emphasis]

@Kay West: Are you going to give us any reason for your belief that “all the FIFA players have to be vaccinated” against COVID-19?

Sometimes I scan over broadcasts from well-known alties/ woo-meisters and find absolute gems:
in this past week’s High Wire, Del, speaking to a home schooling advocate ( towards end of broadcast), admits that his mother pulled him out of school at third grade and encouraged him to teach himself. He admits that when he interviewed Vanden Bossche recently, he knew little about biology and had to learn quickly. Home schooling allows kids to become independent thinkers like him and not autonomatons ( although he didn’t use that word).

Good to know one can master biology and immunology up to PhD level in a crash week.

Much as I take issue with standard K12 (in particular, how it fails to teach kids how to teach themselves), at least children of AltMedders who attend public schools experience two conflicting lay perspectives, and it’s up to them if they wish to resolve that conflict later on. I seriously doubt a home-schooled child of AltMed are ever exposed more than one.

Helps to explain their extraordinary bombastic conceit as adults, if nothing else. Easy to conclude you’re an expert now when you’ve never had to grade your own limitations.

Christine would tell you that it takes at least two weeks of dedicated research Googling before you can speak authoritatively about “toll-like receptors”.

Because it sometimes takes university level bio/ life science to catch alties’ prevarication/ posturing, I try to show handy dandy give-ways like mispronunciations, mis-use of words, futzing up common expressions/ idioms, simple mis-information of general knowledge to warn audiences of alties’ BS artistry BUT
— it’s possible that some of them lack the same skills or
— they identify with their maverick-ness so much they accept them despite these flaws
You would think that glaring errors would serve as a warning light but..

@DB: “Christine would tell you that it takes at least two weeks of dedicated research Googling before you can speak authoritatively about “toll-like receptors”.”

Christine’s echolalia is second only to her covert narcissism.

Me, I completely flunked out of 1st year medicine, and TBH the only two things I learned doing that were 1. my own limitations, and 2. “It’s a bit more complicated than that.” So when I see these goobers trying to fake it I have to laugh. Because I couldn’t fake it, and the only person I fooled was myself.

And even that didn’t last, as that experience finally taught me self-awareness. So though I know nearly nothing today, I still know 3 more things than they do!

So when does ORAC make a blog post about ‘Big” Ben Roethlisberger, the Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback.

‘Big” Ben fell ill and reported it and tested positive for Covid and can’t play this weekend. And he was fully vaccinated.

Rogers wasn’t sick, but Roethlisberger is, a real conundrum. Rogers wasn’t vaccinated but Roethlisberger is, same outcome.

Simple.
It’s a matter of playing the odds.
Yes, Roethlisberger was fully vaccinated and still fell ill, but the likelihood of getting COVID is way lower for the vaccinated than the unvaccinated. Roethlisberger was one of the unlucky ones.

Roethlisberger has acted responsibly about his illness. He got the real vaccine when it was available, he reported his symptoms to his team before he was tested, then has followed the NFL protocol without complaint.

Rodgers lied by misdirection, put his teammates at risk and has undermined support for vaccination by his public statements. This is irresponsible.

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1459844584964562948

Roethlisberger didn’t like about his vaccination status, expose people around him to an increased risk of infection, boost pseudomedical quackery or whine about being a martyr.

tbruce db jf

Oh but Roetlisberger did spread his infection around.
1 more teammate tested positive on monday.
roethlisberger was not feeling “quite right’ on wednesday after practice and waited until saturday to get tested. He though since he was vaccinated …………

Even Fauci said this in an interview
“They are seeing a waning of immunity not only against infection but against hospitalization and to some extent death, which is starting to now involve all age groups. It isn’t just the elderly,” Fauci said. “It’s waning to the point that you’re seeing more and more people getting breakthrough infections, and more and more of those people who are getting breakthrough infections are winding up in the hospital.”

@Tony Can you cite original source of Fauci citation ? When he said this, where to to whom. Google Search returns only the usual suspects.

This is a paper about how SARS CoV2 suppresses adaptive immune system. Did you notice that ?
Spike protein is cleaved when virus enters the cell. This is about what happens to the parts. During vaccination, it is synthesised inside the cell,

I dunno why we keep yammering about vaccines and pricey pharma drugs to treat Covid-19 infections, when the answer has been right under our noses and rotting in our vegetable crispers all this time.

Celery juice!

You may not know (because of suppression by the Usual Suspects) that Anthony William has a new edition of his groundbreaking book, Medial Medium. It’s sure to answer all your questions about viruses and chronic disease, including ones you never would’ve thought to ask. From a promo for a previous edition:

“Anthony William, the originator of the global celery juice movement and #1 New York Times best-selling author of Medical Medium Cleanse to Heal, Medical Medium Celery Juice, Medical Medium Liver Rescue, Medical Medium Thyroid Healing, Medical Medium Life-Changing Foods, and Medical Medium, was born with the unique ability to converse with the Spirit of Compassion, who provides him with extraordinarily accurate health information that’s far ahead of its time.”*

“Since age four, Anthony has been using his gift to “read” people’s conditions and tell them how to recover their health. His unprecedented accuracy and success rate as the Medical Medium have earned him the trust and love of millions worldwide, among them movie stars, rock stars, billionaires, professional athletes, and countless other people from all walks of life who couldn’t find a way to heal until he provided them with insights from above.”

“Anthony has also become an invaluable resource to doctors who need help solving their most difficult cases.”**

There is a most impressiveand lengthy list of endorsements from renowned medical figures like Christiane Northrup, Robert De Niro, Marianne Williamson and Morgan Fairchild.

Why doesn’t Pfizer hire this man to conduct their Covid-19 research program? I think we all know the answer.

*for example, didja know that there are over 30 varieties of shingles, mostly uncharacterized by the “experts”, causing disorders as varied as TMJ, tongue pain, migraines and frozen shoulder?
**physicians posting on RI, take note.

Don’t get me wrong, I am inclined to like Dr Sahin and find his story interesting. Whether we are dealing with Einstein’s Theory of Relativity or Crick’s DNA discoveries, who isn’t fascinated by great scientific breakthroughs?

Wasn’t mRNA vaccination promising to be that? I actually remember reading articles that Dr Sahin might just be in the running for a Nobel!

Fast forward less than a year, and hasn’t mRNA vaccination proven to be the ultimate bust? We are talking the most vaccinated place on earth experiencing cases going through the roof, and, by contrast, other less vaccinated places (India and Brazil) are on the cusp of endemicy.

Being a newfound billionaire, I imagine Dr Sahin don’t need my sympathy, but I can’t help feeling sorry for him — and even if my antivaxx leanings also have me smirking.

https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/columns/2021/nov/15/india-the-first-nation-to-transition-to-endemic-covid-2383617.amp

Is this really true Greg ? The most vaxxed place on earth seems to be the Pitcairn Islands with 100% double vaxxed .The most vaccinated country in Europe is Portugal with 87.6% double vaxxed . Currently their rate is about 1000 per day compared with 15,000 per day in January and a death rate of less than 10 per day compared with 300 per day in January.
Looking at the world , we have the UAE with 88.2 double vaxxed . Current cases less than 100 per day c.f. February 4,000 per day and deaths 1 per day , February 20 per day .
The lesson to me seems to be you need 80% plus of your population double vaxxed to get good protection .
The UK is at 67.5% , hopeless .

The most vaccinated country in Europe is Portugal with 87.6% double vaxxed . Currently their rate is about 1000 per day compared with 15,000 per day in January and a death rate of less than 10 per day compared with 300 per day in January.

Nigel, here is a current list of infection rates for European countries. Portugal is only one spot better than Russia and five spots better than Romania Both those countries have vaxxed rates in the 30%.

Ok, you can’t trust Russia and Romania’s figures? Portugal’s rate is actually worse than the UK and Germany’s!

Why am I always getting so much hate for pointing out reality?!

PS: Answer the damn question, Aarno

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1110187/coronavirus-incidence-europe-by-country/

And, where exactly is the media fanfare in celebrating India’s momentous achievement and spotlighting them as an inspiration to the rest of the world as to how we can all overcome this harrowing pandemic? If India were a highly vaxxed country, a worldwide public holiday would’ve been declared with parades and celebration, and citizens encouraged to rejoice and give praise and thanks to the vaccine overlords — and all the antivaxxers would be banished to hell, once and for all!

@Greg And what about Brazil ? Fanfares because season is over ? Do you yourself know why casres in India are down ?

“Fast forward less than a year, and hasn’t mRNA vaccination proven to be the ultimate bust?”

You really are as stupid as the others show you to be.

Quoting myself…

Don’t get me wrong, I am inclined to like Dr Sahin and find his story interesting. Whether we are dealing with Einstein’s Theory of Relativity or Crick’s DNA discoveries, who isn’t fascinated by great scientific breakthroughs?

And, I just want to get this off my chest, but when was the last great scientific breakthrough? I am not talking about overhyped cosmology stuff on backhoes, but real earth-shattering stuff!

Seems like when I was in grade-school, I was taught there was a great scientific discovery every second week. And, today? Where are you brilliant scientists in delivering the theory unifying the different forces of energy? Heck — why don’t you do something practical and solve cancer? We have bad cells where they’re not supposed to be, how hard is that? Yeah yeah, cancer mutates fast and they are all different; quit whinning and solve it!

For Christ sakes, a real modern-day pandemic comes along, and what solution have you offered? An ineffective vaccine that doesn’t last more than a few months, and which must be propped up by people wearing face diapers and avoiding each other! If this isn’t a sick joke, I don’t know what is. Yeah — I am an antivaxxer, but maybe there was also a secret side of me hoping you guys would’ve inspired with a splash.

The ‘antivaxxers’ say vice accounts for your motives; sometimes I find myself wishing it was. In some was, vice is more tolerable than incompetence.

@Greg Delta variant indeed is an evidence of great incompetence. Of all people believing natural immunity.

Love your work and thank you, its been a great help to responding to a family member currently deep in the rabbits hole. I would love to read your thoughts about someone else I’ve only found out about recently, a Dr Mikolaj Raszek, his youtube channel is Merogenomics.

Greg falls flat on his face again. The reference he cites is the total incidence of COVID since January 25, 2020. It says so right below the table.

If you look at the infection and death rates per million presented here:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/weekly-trends/#weekly_table

you will see the following:

Cases/million in the previous 7 days
USA 1644
Russia 1887
UK 3793
Canada 406
Portugal 978

Deaths/million in the previous 7 days
USA 21
Russia 59
UK 16
Canada 5
Portugal 5

Clearly related to the vaccination rate in each country.

Clearly related to the vaccination rate in each country.

Really, TBruce?! Let’s include two additional countries…

Cases/milliin in previous 7 days

USA 1687
Russia 1887
UK 3793
Canada 406
*Brazil 361
Portugal 978
*India 58

Deaths/million in previous 7 days
USA 21
Russia 59
UK 16
*Brazil 9
Portugal 5
Canada 5
*India 2

Don’t think so, Tbruce

Gates and Fauci are overlords ? I thought POTUS is. Besides, they are saying that vaccines are so good, that boosters are not needed.

Greg, you aren’t proving anything other than that drawing assumptions from basic facts is fraught with danger, if you don’t have a full handle on the accuracy of those facts.

Brazil & india are not for natural immunity, or ivermection either The is Brazil data:
ttps://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/brazil/
Check last year October

@TBruce: “Clearly related to the vaccination rate in each country.”

I don’t think 7-day figures taken in isolation can possibly show that. There will be at least two major factors affecting short-term numbers: 1. How much of the population is currently protected (by vaccine/lockdowns/whatever), and 2. How much disease was already circulating in the week before.

Thus one country might have high vaccination levels but also very high levels of disease, e.g. thanks to highly urbanized populations plus lousy early control (= high R0). Another might have fewer of its citizens vaccinated but strong public control measures since the start (or passive barriers such as low-density population which mostly stays put) which prevented the disease ever going rampant (= R0 < 1). And death rates, of course, will be influenced by yet more factors, e.g. access to high-quality medical care.

What’s really useful is looking at relative trends over time. If infections are dropping in multiple regions where vaccination is high, and that drop can’t be explained by other confounders (e.g. sudden lockdowns), then the evidence looks good that the vaccines are doing their job. (Of course, once vaccines start doing their job, everyone starts acting like idiots again and the numbers start creeping back up. Le sigh. What a species.)

Caveat: I am not an epidemiologist, so anything I say may be wrong. (And Gerg is a non-sapient potato, so everything he says is nothing else.)

Remember when antivaxers ranted about how a late summer surge in Covid infections in Israel proved that vaccines and other control measures were a bust?

Now that the Covid case rate in Israel has plummeted to 35 infections per 100K people (4% of the peak rate) in the wake of mass booster shot implementation and green pass restrictions, the antivax crowd has gone very quiet.

It’s not that they learned anything – they just pivoted to new, shinier objects.

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/11/scicheck-video-questioning-vaccine-efficacy-pushes-falsehood-about-israel-data/

More rates of new COVID cases and deaths in the previous 7 days:

Cases/million in the previous 7 days:

Israel 307
Romania 1747

Deaths/million in the previous 7 days:

Israel 2
Romania 113

Cases/million in the previous 7 days:

Israel 307
Pakistan 10

Deaths/million in the previous 7 days:

Israel 2
Pakistan 0.3

TBruce, you and I can continue to cherrypick from this chart; or, we can call Kumar and Rumahranian (sp?), yet again, to prove the vaccines are a dud. Oh — I forgot, you guys will poke at your bellybutton, stick your thumb in your mouth, and squeal about the ecological fallacy

Dangerous One, Israel successfully overdosed their population on three Pfizer ‘hits’, and the pandemic still isn’t over there! In fact, they are starting to see a slight upward tick.

Here is another article about Biontech revisiting cancer with mRNA. As I previously explained, I can see that technology as better at targeting cancers than viruses. With viruses, you don’t need so much precision, and, in fact, it can be very detrimental as we see with the original antigenic sin. Yet, here we also have
the article pointing out the huge hurdles in cancer research.

CAR-T, short for chimeric antigen receptor T-cell therapy, involves taking immune cells called T-cells from each patient, genetically altering them to target the cancer, and then reinfusing them back into the patient.

Only a handful of CAR-T therapies are approved by the US Food and Drug Administration, and they cost around $400,000.

They work best against blood-based cancers, Sahin noted. He is trying the approach against solid tumors.

The trouble is toxicity. Side effects can be deadly and include a severe type of inflammation called cytokine release syndrome, and brain swelling. And trying to use the approach against solid tumors adds to this danger.

“There are only very, very few targets which are cancer specific,” Sahin said. “That makes it a bit difficult to develop a treatment which is not only effective, but safe. As safety is a big, big challenge — to have targets that don’t come with toxicity.”

https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/sci-tech/from-covid-19-to-cancer-biontech-ceo-wants-to-get-company-back-to-its-roots-1.5663535

If you actually read the article, it says that stimulation of TLRs stimulates immune system generally, which helps fighting cancer.

Yes, and that was my point of bringing up the article. Considering certain TLRs are diminished after mRNA vaccination is really a bad thing.

And certain TLRs are upregulated, you keep forgetting that.
Actually the article clearly says TLRs fight pathogens. Idea is to make immune system hyperactive. Immune system checkpoint inhibitors are a known cancer drug.

And, now that it is becoming clearer by each and every day that the vaccines are a spectacular failure (and, even if it’s so painful fact for the Choir), I am left fixated on the cause of this. I am struck by this passage from Fohse et al

investigate the neutralizing capacity of the serum against SARS-CoV-2 variants, we performed 50% plaque reduction neutralization testing (PRNT50) using sera collected two weeks after the second vaccine administration. All the serum samples neutralized the D614G strain and the B.1.1.7 variant with titers of at least 1:80. However, six subjects (37,5%) had titers lower than 1:80 against the B.1.351 variant. Geometric mean neutralizing titers against the D614G strain, B.1.1.7 and B.1.351 were 381, 397, and 70, respectively (Figure S1B, p<0.001). Similar to our investigation, several studies reported 6 to 14-fold decreased neutralizing activity of post-vaccine sera against the B.1.351 variant, and only slightly reduced activity against B.1.1.7, when compared to the standard strain (Planas et al., 2021; Shen et al., 2021; Wang, Liu, et al., 2021). These data support the evidence that B.1.351, and possibly other variants, may be able to escape vaccine-induced humoral immunity to a certain extent (Kustin et al., 2021). Furthermore, the PRNT titer and the antibody concentrations of IgG after the second dose were strongly correlated (Figure S1C). The correlation was stronger for B.1.1.7 and B.1.351 than for the standard strain, both for anti-RBD and anti-S.

So, with the variant, it’s the humoral response that is the problem and the virus is getting into cells? This is consistent with the assumption that the vaccine is not picking up these strains. As, I explained, early imprinting and the original antigenic sin accounts for this. The S antibodies are not upgrading to match the mutated S protein of these strains.

Bossche, however, offers another explanation that can be seen as the exact opposite of the original antigenic sin. He explained that the S-antibodies from the vaccines bind title to the virus and crowds out antibodies acquired from previous infection.Yet, if such antibodies are binding so effectively to the virus, wouldn’t they stop the infections in their tracks and including the mutations?

Vaccine efficiency against beta variant (one you are speaking about) is known
Thomas SJ, Moreira ED Jr, Kitchin N, Absalon J, Gurtman A, Lockhart S, Perez JL, Pérez Marc G, Polack FP, Zerbini C, Bailey R, Swanson KA, Xu X, Roychoudhury S, Koury K, Bouguermouh S, Kalina WV, Cooper D, Frenck RW Jr, Hammitt LL, Türeci Ö, Nell H, Schaefer A, Ünal S, Yang Q, Liberator P, Tresnan DB, Mather S, Dormitzer PR, Şahin U, Gruber WC, Jansen KU; C4591001 Clinical Trial Group. Safety and Efficacy of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine through 6 Months. N Engl J Med. 2021 Nov 4;385(19):1761-1773. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa2110345. Epub 2021 Sep 15. PMID: 34525277; PMCID: PMC8461570.
Let us say that it is very high.
You should not speak about antibody titers, when you can speak abour vaccine effectiviness.

It is crystal clear that you are repeating same thing. This time, not even citing any paper.

Previously, I explained how the original antigenic sin impedes the vaccinated from benefitting from natural infection, but that phenomenon doesn’t seem to account for how vaccinati0n impairs the immunity of previously naturally infected individuals. Seeing how cases are exploding in highly vaxxed Western Europe and some highly vaxxed US states, it appears that natural immunity in those places are indeed getting impaired. Surely, with the length of the pandemic, a lot of people in those places should’ve been naturally exposed and that should have prevented the surges, but that doesn’t appear to be happening. The only explanation is naturally immunity is somehow getting impaired. Let’s try to understand this with the help of our pathogen example.

The natural exposed acquires antibodies S, N, E and M; the vaccinated person that wasn’t naturally exposed acquires antibodies S. The original antigenic sin tells us that the vaccinated person who subsequently encounters the virus will not acquire N, E, or M, and benefit from those antibodies thwarting future infections. By contrast,, the naturally infected person who is subsequently vaccinated with S should also keep his N E and M that will help him thwart future reinfections.

Now, let’s consider what Bossche is saying: Bossche explains that vaccinating the person who may have been previously exposed will result in him acquiring S-antibodies that binds tightly to the virus and outcompeting the other diverse natural antibodies. With this, we have the opposite of the antigenic sin and the depressing reality that the vaccines will only serve to completely destroy natural immunity,. Seeing things this way, it becomes all the more imperative that we help people by not vaccination them, and including individuals who were previously exposed.

With this outcompeting by S-antibodies, I suppose an argument can be made that technically early imprinting wasn’t really overcome. The S from naturally infection was already there, and reintroducing more S-antibodies with vaccination just led to an over-flooding of the system by those antibodies. Unfortunately, that flood is drowning out the other diverse antibodies, so, in a practical sense, mRNA vaccination is indeed overcoming the original antigenic sin. Unfortunately!

I hear that IPAK* is looking for instructors. The pay can’t be much, but the opportunity for Google scholars to sell useless certificates to antivaxers is priceless.

*The “objective pro-vaccine rational scientist” seems to have mysteriously ceased activity on Twitter, but recently posted a fun article elsewhere, “The Dangers and Poverty of Subjectivism and a Call to Epistemic Responsibility”. It’s tough sledding, but the blather boils down to “real scientists bad, Wakefield good.”

@Aarno: “It is crystal clear that you are repeating same thing. This time, not even citing any paper.”

Oh, you poor sweet summer child. It should surely be crystal clear by now that engaging with Gerg in any way is sticking your face in front of the shit hose. Just a constant stream of liquid and lumpy bits—in your nose, your eyes, and down your throat.

And yet, to watch it action, it’s actually almost adorable; in the innocent way that only the perfectly self-unaware narcissist can achieve: Gerg does in fact really honestly genuinely believe that he knows what he’s talking about. And not merely that, but that his understanding of the subject broader and deeper and more insightful, his great wisdom more solemn and beneficent and respective, that any other person alive. And how can we say this? Because it is all self-evidently true: for there is not another human even adequate for comparison to himself; and how could he hope to gauge himself against such lesser creatures as me and you? It just wouldn’t be fair to us at all.

Truly, from Gerg’s perspective, that’s not the reeking splatter of vomitous excrement you are feeling. It is the generous touch of his magnificent gold.

I can see how you might struggle with that.

Considering many kids were actually naturally exposed to Covid, it’s all the more sinful to flood their immune system with S-antibodies and destroying their natural immunity. The people in Africa and South Asia are also reaping the benefits of natural immunity, and even if it’s mystifying the ‘experts’ as to why they are escaping Covid. Kudos to the African scientists that are starting to rethink that they might not need the ‘miraculous’ vaccines.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrE1xHm3pphbiIAbGA5ByI5;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Nj/RV=2/RE=1637568358/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fca.news.yahoo.com%2fscientists-mystified-wary-africa-avoids-074905034.html/RK=2/RS=xEBIiFzCbQZg.oXAuhiXf62UbCA-

@Gerg: “The people in Africa and South Asia are also reaping the benefits of natural immunity, and even if it’s mystifying the ‘experts’ as to why they are escaping Covid.”

10/10 for Religious Fucknuttery. 0/10 for actually freaking possible.

You can’t develop “natural immunity” to SARS-CoV-2 without first contracting a SARS-CoV-2 infection (i.e. COVID-19). You stupid dribbling fucknuckle.

The only way to develop immunity without contracting the disease is by vaccinating or being hit by a truck.

The vaccination trains your immune system to recognize the disease before it meets the disease itself, so that your body can stomp the disease early before it has a chance to take hold.

The truck, being sufficiently large and speedy, immunizes you against all future diseases by rendering you squishy and dead.

Which, by the way, is what an actual COVID infection does too. With high-quality medical treatment we have now got those fatalities down to 1–2% of cases, although in many parts of Africa and Asia where they don’t have high-quality medical treatment it is likely to be much higher. And another explanation for low stats there is that they don’t have high-quality epidemiology either, and simply don’t count a lot of those who suffer and die in poverty from COVID, for the same reason they don’t count a lot of those who suffer and die in poverty from all other causes: they don’t have resources to care.

Now, it is possible, and even plausible, that for some as-yet-unidentified reason an unusually large proportion of Africans and Asians are developing asymptomatic COVID infections—i.e. they catch the virus, grow the virus, and eventually repel the virus themselves without getting sick as dogs in the middle. One cannot directly extrapolate from SARS-CoV-2’s behavior in a sedentary largely indoor western population to an African/Asian population. The two most likely explanations are:

SARS-CoV-2’s R₀ is rendered much lower there due to differences in social behaviors (e.g. largely outdoor/well-ventilated lifestyles), and/or
poor people in developing nations die of lots of other things first. (And knowing COVID is most frequently fatal in the elderly, a population where many individuals die of other diseases before old age will see far fewer such deaths.)

Lastly, and most apparently of all: You CANNOT READ FOR SHIT, you ignorant, incompetent, blithering cockwomble.

Because there is NOTHING in your linked Yahoo article that says lots of Africans have contracted SARS-CoV-2. All it says is that cases and deaths are lower than anticipated; and the simplest explanation for that is that the great majority of Africans simply have never caught it. And if they’ve never caught it, they can’t have “natural immunity” to it. Therefore what you’ve just stated is a logical impossibility. (Not, of course, that this has ever stopped you before.)

Honestly, when your mom birthed you she should have kept the afterbirth instead. Humanity’s sum total IQ would’ve been vastly improved.

@Greg You keep forgetting T cells.
There are separate antibodies against every COVID protein, actually against various epitopes of a single protein. So there are no competition. Thigh binding is of course a good thing, virus would be cleared. Virus would always have S protein, btw, so antibodies against it would be enough to this effect.
Antibodies against S protein are neutralizing, other antibodies are not.
Original antigenic sin applies to natural immunity, too. There are lots of coronaviruses with similar proteins.
What doyou mean that natural immunity is weakening ? Remember your pet Israeli paper ? It says that infected people benefit from vaccination

Greg You keep forgetting T cells.
There are separate antibodies against every COVID protein, actually against various epitopes of a single protein. So there are no competition

Aarno, I asked you before, but I never obtained an answer. If the B-cells are not diversifying, why would we think things would be different for T-cells?

Because there is NOTHING in your linked Yahoo article that says lots of Africans have contracted SARS-CoV-2. All it says is that cases and deaths are lower than anticipated; and the simplest explanation for that is that the great majority of Africans simply have never caught it. And if they’ve never caught it, they can’t have “natural immunity” to it. Therefore what you’ve just stated is a logical impossibility. (Not, of course, that this has ever stopped you before

No, Has, the article is about why Africa seems to be escaping the surges that are now plaguing Europe and parts of Aisa. To say Africans have never caught Covid is a lie. In fact, they have experienced three significant surges, and with the last one occurring in the summer.

Reflecting on this, Has, it appears Africa is in the same boat as India, having built lasting immunity from past surges. These regions are to be contrasted with highly vaxxed Europe and parts of Asia that don’t seem to be reaping any benefits from their previous surges. This is the ‘puzzle’ that the article is addressing.

https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrJ7F8_p51hvmQApGA5ByI5;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzEEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1637750719/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.afro.who.int%2fnews%2fafrica-faces-steepest-covid-19-surge-yet/RK=2/RS=oKXHv_MOYuKc.d7uzWCkTJISekM-

And, it’s so laughable with the ‘experts’ claiming cases are exploding in Germany because they haven’t vaccinated enough relative to their neighbors, but the same ‘experts’ are also ‘mystified’ about plummeting cases in Romania and why Africa is also not seeing a surge. Bossche accounts to a t.

Africa hasn’t introduced vaccines in any meaningful way, and this hasn’t forced selective pressure for virulent strains such as Delta. Such strains are left competing with all the other strains, and they are effectively absorbed by natural immunity. Interestingly, Boosche explains that this is where the entire world would’ve been at if vaccines were never introduced.

For countries such as Romania with fledgling vaccination, selective pressure is starting to come into play. Virulent strains such as Delta will more likely find the unvaxxed, and where as the vaxxed asymptomatic cases will be more hidden. I previously described these asymptomatic vaxxed cases as the iceberg below the surface. Within a short timeframe though, both the symptomatic and asymptomatic unvaxxed cases will recover, building superior natural immunity, and resulting in cases tumbling.

In more vaxxed countries such as Germany, the selective pressure for virulent strains such as Delta will be even greater. Here, we will find an even more pronounced ‘tip’ of symptomatic vaxxed cases and an even greater mountain of asymptomatic cases below the surface. Looking at things this way, talk of Germany experiencing a pandemic of the unvaxxed is a lie. It involves ignoring the mountainous asymptomatic vaxxed cases below the surface,

Finally, in the most vaxxed countries such as Ireland and Portugal, the selective pressure for virulent strains will be so great that it results in greater breakthrough vaxxed cases. Think of those cases as pushing above the surface. Also interesting, having inferior immunity, those vaxxed cases are unlikely to build lasting protection, and, hence, we find a plateauing of cases in those highly vaxxed countries, and which must be remedied by boosters.

Also, although we are not inclined to pay any attention to Has after having thoroughly put the rascal in his place on multiple occasions, let’s be gracious and humour him. Forgetting his place again, he chimes…

You can’t develop “natural immunity” to SARS-CoV-2 without first contracting a SARS-CoV-2 infection (i.e. COVID-19). You stupid dribbling fucknuckle.

Has, Covid and all it’s variants, including vaccine resistant Delta, are already in Africa. The innate immunity of Africans comprising of broad, cross-reactive antibodies are effectively sterilizing these variants. Yes, Has, Africans’ superior natural immunity that hasn’t been compromised by vaccines is doing an excellent job at keeping Covid and Delta at bay.

Has, should the insanity of mRNA vaccination also take off in Africa, that would also give Spike evading Delta an advantage, and it would start replicating exponentially there. That mRNA vaccination’s bully S-antibodies crowd out the broad, cross-reactive innate antibodies, or innate inspired antibodies, would also greatly contribute to this.

Has, how do we know that this is the true state of affairs, and not your ‘fanciful’ speculations to account for why Covid hasn’t taken off in Africa? We know this, Has, because just about every country that has increased it’s vaccination rate saw an exponential rise in it’s Covid cases. Sure the excuse is Delta, but that brings us back to the puzzle that we are not seeing Covid and Delta surging in Africa.

Has, which betting person wouldn’t put their money on my — and Bossche’s! — account? And, just like that, you have had enough of our time, and we are done with you.

Also, although we are not inclined to pay any attention to Has after having thoroughly put the rascal in his place on multiple occasions, let’s be gracious and humour him. Forgetting his place again, he chimes…

You can’t develop “natural immunity” to SARS-CoV-2 without first contracting a SARS-CoV-2 infection (i.e. COVID-19). You stupid dribbling fucknuckle.

Has, Covid and all it’s variants, including vaccine resistant Delta, are already in Africa. The innate immunity of Africans comprising of broad, cross-reactive antibodies are effectively sterilizing these variants. Yes, Has, Africans’ superior natural immunity that hasn’t been compromised by vaccines is doing an excellent job at keeping Covid and Delta at bay.

Has, should the insanity of mRNA vaccination also take off in Africa, that would also give Spike evading Delta an advantage, and it would start replicating exponentially there. That mRNA vaccination’s bully S-antibodies crowd out the broad, cross-reactive innate antibodies, or innate inspired antibodies, would also greatly contribute to this.

Has, how do we know that this is the true state of affairs, and not your ‘fanciful’ speculations to account for why Covid hasn’t taken off in Africa? We know this, Has, because just about every country that has increased it’s vaccination rate saw an exponential rise in it’s Covid cases. Sure the excuse is Delta, but that brings us back to the puzzle that we are not seeing Covid and Delta surging in Africa.

Has, which betting person wouldn’t put their money on my — and Bossche’s! — account? And, just like that, you have had enough of our time, and we are done with you.

Quoting myself…

Also interesting, having inferior immunity, those vaxxed cases are unlikely to build lasting protection, and, hence, we find a plateauing of cases in those highly vaxxed countries, and which must be remedied by boosters.

This nasty secret about mRNA vaccination cannot be emphasized enough. It’s not just that it breeds cases
— but, sustained cases! As the majority gets vaccinated, they are robbed of their superior innate immunity for effective protection, and reinfections becomes the norm where cases don’t fall.

Uk is a prime example of this: cases there have plateaued in the 40k range for months now. The signs are also there that the entire highly vaxxed Western Europe is heading in the same dangerous direction. We are not seeing cases subsiding in that region as they are doing in less vaxxed Romania, Ukraine and Russia.

And, just like that, you have had enough of our time, and we are done with you.

He’s got the whole world
In his pants
The whole wide world
In his pants

Quoting myself…

Virulent strains such as Delta will more likely find the unvaxxed, and where as the vaxxed asymptomatic cases will be more hidden. I previously described these asymptomatic vaxxed cases as the iceberg below the surface

How deceptive an iceberg can be: Sticking out above the water is it’s cute, petty tip; dive below the surface though and you will encounter the mammoth, frightening ice sheet. With the pandemic, how we have exploited this deception by suggesting all that needs to be tamed is the antivaxx tip.

@Greg You have not refuted anybody. Repeating yourself endlessly Is not same thing than refutation.
Now you are saying that Africans have immunity against COVID 19 without ever having it ? How this can happen ? You will notice that there were surge in US and other countries before vaccination, so your “natural immunity” does not work outside Africa.
Delta variant is not vaccine resistant.
“Almost every country has surge after vaccination”. Actually surge was after lockdowns were relaxed (and season came in).
US cases are here:
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
You will notice that vaccination in US started December 14, 2020

@Greg Most of hospitalised are unvaccinated, superior natural immunity of some of them does not help them.Data from Singapore:
https://www.moh.gov.sg/
Deaths among unvaccinated & vaccinated are coming down, actually. So is infection ratio.
To repeat myself: your pet Israeli study showed that infected people benefited from vaccination. Perhaps you can comment that ?

@Greg Do you think that nobody have not investigated infections among unvaccinated ?
Tande AJ, Pollock BD, Shah ND, Farrugia G, Virk A, Swift M, Breeher L, Binnicker M, Berbari EF. Impact of the COVID-19 Vaccine on Asymptomatic Infection Among Patients Undergoing Pre-Procedural COVID-19 Molecular Screening. Clin Infect Dis. 2021 Mar 10:ciab229. doi: 10.1093/cid/ciab229. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 33704435; PMCID: PMC7989519.
Perhaps you could comment that, too.

Now you are saying that Africans have immunity against COVID 19 without ever having it

Aarno, as I explained, Africa has seen past Covid-2 surges and African have acquired Covid-2 immunity from them. Also, emerging evidence is finding that immunity to Covid-2 can also be gained from cross-reactive T-cells that were acquired from other past Sars infections. This applies to not just Africans but others as well, and the issue is how much mRNA vaccination is hampering it.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04186-8

To repeat myself: your pet Israeli study showed that infected people benefited from vaccination. Perhaps you can comment that

Aarno, the issue is not whether mRNA vaccination can neutralise infection; the issue is how effective it is at stopping re-infections.

Greg You have not refuted anybody. Repeating yourself endlessly Is not same thing than refutation.
Now you are saying that Africans have immunity against COVID 19 without ever having it ? How this can happen ?

Interestingly, two of my antivaxx heroes, Bahkdi and Bossche, got into a disagreement. C’mon! — they are heroes for preaching that vaccines are sending us to hell. How can any antivaxxer not love them!

Anyway, the disagreement centered around this topic of whether it’s possible to have immunity to Covid-2 without past infection. Bahkdi said you could, arguing that T-cells from past Covid infections can react with the current virus and provide protection.

Bossche disagreed with this. He explained those T-cells might be reactivate, but not necessarily protective; meaning that the may not necessarily neutralize Covid-2. Bossche argued that any early protection against Covid-2 will come from the innate response (largely seen in the younger population) producing innate antibodies that block the virus and preventing infection of cells. Here, again, the key point is protection will only come after exposure, and Bossche is essentially agreeing with Aarno and Has.

Yet, with Swadling et al in that Nature article finding that T-cells from past Covid infections were indeed protective against Covid-2, the disagreement has been essentially settled in Bahdi’s favour. Now, hopefully these two heroes will shake hands and continue their welcome effort in slamming Covid vaccination.

https://www.geertvandenbossche.org/post/neutralizing-dr-bhakdi-s-attempt-at-rebuttal

@Greg Africa does not have lots of COVID cases. There cannot be lots of past COVID 19 infections either, because it is a disease caused by a new pathogen.
Crossreaction with related viruses could result with original antigenic sin:
SARS-CoV-2 infections elicit higher levels of original antigenic sin antibodies compared to SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccinations
Elizabeth M. Anderson, Theresa Eilola, Eileen Goodwin, Marcus J. Bolton, Sigrid Gouma, Rishi R. Goel, Mark M. Painter, Sokratis A. Apostolidis, Divij Mathew, Debora Dunbar, Danielle Fiore, Amanda Brock, JoEllen Weaver, John S. Millar, Stephanie DerOhannessian, The UPenn COVID Processing Unit, Allison R. Greenplate, Ian Frank, Daniel J. Rader, E. John Wherry, View ORCID ProfileScott E. Hensley
doi: https://doi.org/10.1101/2021.09.30.21264363
Any case, why would a immune response against a related pathogen be as good as one against the pathogen itself ? It would be a suboptimal response from immune memory.

@Greg What is difference between neutralizing and stopping ? I actually can figure out what you mean. Remember Singapore data I cited ? Or paper I cited ? Vaccination prevents transmission as well as hospitazations.

@Greg I notice that one of your antivax heroes actually understand some basic facts. A related coronavirus would have different proteins. Antibodies against this coronavirus would not bind as well as antibodies against SARS CoV 2.
And do not forget T cells,

Any case, why would a immune response against a related pathogen be as good as one against the pathogen itself ? It would be a suboptimal response from immune memory.

Conflicted by the research of Swadling et al finding that cross-reactive T-cells were indeed protecting. Aarno, it is duly noted that you completely failed to address the study. I encourage you to take a kick at the can.

Greg What is difference between neutralizing and stopping ? I actually can figure out what you mean. Remember Singapore data I cited ? Or paper I cited ? Vaccination prevents transmission as well as hospitazations.

Very well, let’s speak of speed of neutralizing. mRNA vaccination can neutralizing an infection and prevent sickness and death, but, it can also be slow at doing so, and this results in cases, as well as reinfections.

By contrast, immunity after natural infection is much more efficient –faster!– at neutralizing the virus during subsequent reencounters.

Very well, let’s speak of speed of neutralizing.

Who’s up for a game of “What’s the word that begins with a k?

@Greg You forget paper I cited. Existing antibodies against related coronaviruses could result with original antigenic sin. They do not work in US, any case. Remember disaese surge before vaccination.
Why do you think reaction is faster after infection ? Reaction from immmune memory is always fast.

Ryan Cole was one of the physicians presenting at the “Florida Covid Summit” earlier this month in Ocala, FL, attended by antivaxers and alt Covid remedy types. It was held at the World Equestrian Center, which is appropriate since one of the treatments they were boosting was ivermectin.*

The summit has gained unwanted attention since its organizer announced that a half-dozen docs had contracted Covid-19 within a short time after attending. They include Dr. Bruce Boros, an antivaxer who had previously boasted of having been on ivermectin for 18 months. The conference organizer says Dr. Bruce is doing fine (he claims all of the newly infected are responding to ivermectin), although acquaintances say Boros is seriously ill at home.**

https://www.thedailybeast.com/dr-bruce-boros-and-six-others-from-florida-covid-summit-fall-sick

*meeting at the World Equestrian Center was cosmically (or comically) appropriate.
**if it’s true that Boros is seriously ill with Covid-19, it’s probably because of whatever mainstream therapy he got, an insufficient ivermectin dose, lack of vitamin D, or sunspots.

Press release of the Sadling et al study…

Odd that neither it nor the paper mentions Sadling or Swadling.

Of course, immune responses targeting SARS-CoV-2 that are mounted by the memory cells are far more effective than cross-reactive responses. But even though the protection isn’t absolute, cross-reactive immune responses shorten the infection and reduce its severity. And this is exactly what is also achieved through vaccination, just much, much more efficiently,” says Trkola

Did you hear that, Aarno, and Has? It’s not a black/white issue where we can say cross-reactivity offers no protection or protection. It offers protection, but lesser than what is conferred by memory cells.

How do we wrap things up then and account for what’s going on in Africa with Covid sparing them? First, cross-reactivity is preventing some Africans from infection. Second, Africa has a relatively young population, avg 20s, and as Bossche argues, young people have better immunity that can completely block infection after exposure. Third, for the rest that encounter the virus and get sick, the vast majority of them are recovering, and building superior natural immunity that is guarding against reinfections.

Essentially, Swadling et al found cross-reactive antibodies, and whereas Abela et al found cross-reactive T-cells. Whichever way you slice it, cross-reactive protection is occurring, and which lends credence to Bahkdi argument that death and doom was not inevitable had we left Covid-2 alone. Actually, Africa is also proving this, and while Europe crash and burn.

My bad — the vaccines are creating more cases to save from sickness and deaths. How did I miss that logic!

Ah, finally you’ve managed to bumble your way back to your original assertion. Low comedy, but of the first water. Perhaps you could summarize it, if you can figure out where the text is.

@Greg Cross reactive protection is occurring and there is 800000 US deaths ? Perhaps high antibody titer against related coronaviruses is a rare thing, or a short time one.
I noticed that the error margin is quite wide

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