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Steve Kirsch reveals “secret plan to end the vaccine madness”

Steve Kirsch has a “secret plan to end the vaccine madness.” In reality, it’s not secret, but a conglomeration of antivaccine conspiracy theories, misinformation, and pseudoscience.

It’s a new year, and my vacation is over. I won’t tell you much about what I was doing during my week off other than to say that this was a pretty lousy vacation, and Orac’s tarial cells are not nearly as recharged as he’d hoped they’d be by the time this day rolled around. (Don’t ask. That’s all I’ll say for now.) Be that as it may, before disappearing for ten days, I had made what appears to have been my first mention of a COVID-19 crank and antivaxxer whom I hadn’t really discussed before, a fact that I now find surprising given how prolific a source of misinformation that he’s been. I’m referring to tech bro turned incompetent conspiracy-mongering epidemiologist and scientist, Steve Kirsch.

In brief, Mr. Kirsch, not content with standard antivax weaponization of the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database by claiming that VAERS shows that COVID-19 vaccines have killed tens of thousands of people, has been pushing a false claim that it’s really hundreds of thousands of people dead due to the vaccines, justifying this estimate on his own wildly implausible and poorly derived estimate that VAERS undercounts deaths due to COVID-19 by a factor of 41. Having been made aware of Mr. Kirsch’s prodigious capacity for producing COVID-19 disinformation on his Substack, a capacity that reminds me of me 15 years ago, when I produced at least one post a day seven days a week—sometimes more than one—I figured that he and his disinformation should be featured here more frequently in 2022. Actually, now that I look at his Substack again, I see that Mr. Kirsch is far more prolific at producing misinformation than I ever was at refuting it, even back in my heyday, when my output was at least twice what it is now. I guess that’s what comes from apparently having a hell of a lot more free time than I do.

Over the weekend, I saw just the bit, Mr. Kirsch’s “secret plan to end the vaccine madness.” It’s basically a rundown of selected antivaccine talking points all bundled into one concentrated bit of conspiracy mongering and misinformation. I guess he thinks he’s being “ironic” by calling it “secret” and adding a tagline that says, “Don’t tell anyone, OK? Just between us” as he publicizes it on his Substack, and not even behind a paywall, but whatever.

As COVID-19 cranks do, Kirsch leans into the “persecution for free speech” angle, coupled with a conspiracy theory that COVID-19 vaccines are deadly, but “they” don’t want you to know about it, complete with the “enlightened” coming to the realization about this “suppressed knowledge”:

There is no one thing that ends the madness. Each activity contributes to moving the ball forward.

The good news is that people in healthcare are getting really upset now and many are sacrificing their jobs to speak out. So I think this will end sooner than later.

As always, our biggest “convincer” is the vaccine itself. Sooner or later doctors and nurses are going to have to stop ignoring the side effects and speak out just as occurred here.

The particular story Mr. Kirsch quotes reminds me of antivax claims of old that confuse correlation with causation (and often don’t convincingly demonstrate even correlation). What do I mean? Pre-pandemic, antivaxxers used to blame vaccines for conditions that we know from large epidemiological studies not to be caused by vaccines (e.g., autism) based on the coincidental appearance of first signs within days or weeks after a vaccine. We’re seeing the same thing here, but with healthcare workers, many of whom have unfortunately demonstrated themselves not to have critical thinking skills any better than that in the regular population. It’s a bunch of antivaccine nurses in Ventura County telling a credulous reporter a bunch of anecdotal accounts buffered by confirmation bias, in which supposedly there is a huge increase of patients admitted for clotting problems and the like. They, of course, blame COVID-19 vaccines. They also—of course!—claim that the hospital is “covering it up” and denying that the vaccine could be the cause of these issues.

If you want to see where these nurses are coming from and why Mr. Kirsch likes them, a previous article in the same source from October is just chock full of the same sort of claims, complete with conspiracy mongering, including claims that doctors won’t fill out VAERS reports, a claim that I love to refute by pointing out that anyone can fill out a VAERS report, including family members. It doesn’t have to be a doctor. If these nurses are so convinced that these strokes and heart attacks are due to COVID-19 vaccines, they themselves could report the cases to VAERS, or they could suggest to family members that they report the cases. The reasons that the doctors supposedly aren’t considering COVID-19 vaccines as the cause of these cases? To these nurses, it obviously isn’t because COVID-19 vaccines aren’t the cause or aren’t even correlated. Perish the thought! It has to be because the doctors are biased and the hospital doesn’t want its “numbers to skyrocket” among the vaccinated.

Moving on, Mr. Kirsch invokes freedom:

I’m currently of the belief that there are only two basic ways to victory:

  1. End the censorship of doctors. Enable the 30% of “red pill” healthcare provider to speak out without fear of retribution
  2. Discredit the authorities. Find a way to discredit the “authorities” in a way that the “blue pill” public can relate to, e.g., a debate, show “hidden camera footage,” getThe New York Times to run a whistleblower story, etc.

Who knows where Mr. Kirsch got that estimate that supposedly 30% of healthcare providers think COVID-19 vaccines are deadly and “fear retribution” for “speaking out.” but this is, again, conspiracy mongering, pure and simple. The “red pill” imagery is a definite “tell,” given how much conspiracy theorists love the image themselves as having taken the “red pill” that reveals to them unpleasant “truths” and shatters the conspiracy to keep them ignorant of those “truths,” as compared to the rest of the “blue pill” populace, who are kept in contented ignorance of “The Truth” and are afraid to take the red pill. That imagery as annoying before the new Matrix movie was released last month, and it’s even more annoying now.

Of course, one of my rebuttals to claims that doctors and other healthcare professionals are being “silenced” is along the line of Jonathan Howard’s: The don’t seem very “silenced” to me, but rather very, very loud. Another of my rebuttals is that professional speech is different from free speech. Sure, doctors have the First Amendment right to free speech, just as everyone else does in the US. However, when they use their status as doctors to lend more plausibility to dangerous misinformation and conspiracy theories because they come from a trusted healthcare professional, that’s a different thing. Misusing professional stature that way is profoundly unprofessional and unethical, and it is not at all unreasonable that there should be professional consequences resulting from such behavior, be they from state medical boards, professional societies, or certifying boards.

Indeed, my complaint has been that state medical boards have only come very late to this conclusion and that, even after their realization that they need to do something about doctors misusing their professional credentials in this manner, are still quite toothless. Even so, there’s a reason why antivaxxers attack state medical boards and try to portray physicians promoting quackery and misinformation as “brave mavericks.” This tactic is nothing new. It long predates COVID-19 and hasn’t been used just by antivax doctors and their supporters, but by all variety of quacks and quackery supporters as well; e.g., cancer quack Stanislaw Burzynski.

Similarly, “discrediting the authorities” is another longstanding antivaccine tactic, except that I generally refer to it as falsely discrediting authorities using misinformation, disinformation, lies, pseudoscience, quackery, and conspiracy theories. Fortunately, large media outlets are much more savvy than they once were about these sorts of tactics. Unfortunately, certain other once proud media outlets—I’m talking to you, BMJ, but not just you—have demonstrated themselves to be useful idiots for antivaxxers.

But Mr. Kirsch isn’t through. He has 15 other ideas, because of course he does. I’ll just peruse the ones that caught my eye the most, as others are rather risible; e.g., “Get RFK Jr. on Rogan,” because RFK Jr. will be on Joe Rogan’s podcast at some point, given that equally “out there” cranks like Dr. Robert “inventor of mRNA vaccines” Malone was just on Rogan’s podcast last week.

The first one, as you might have predicted, is this:

Enable doctors to speak the truth without fear of retribution from medical boards and hospitals. Stopping the censorship of doctors either in a single state, or across the country with a coordinated day where 100,000 healthcare providers speak out at the same time. This includes activities such as suing state medical boards for violating the free speech rights of doctors and creating a special substack to coordinate action

I’d like to thank Mr. Kirsch for providing me a very “target-rich” environment that I will keep in mind for future blogging, for instance, the part where Mr. Kirsch pontificates direly:

Challenging the current set of COVID policies can get your fired and/or lead to revocation of your license. You cannot challenge the safety of the vaccines, question the need for masks, question the need for mandates, or prescribe a safe medication like ivermectin without fear of retribution, as shown here.

That last link, by the way, goes to an article by a “naturopathic oncologist” named Colleen Huber. We have met this “not-a-doctor” before, for instance, when she herself tried to “cancel” former naturopath turned critic of naturopathy, Britt Hermes, by threatening to sue her. The irony here is just too rich. Mr. Kirsch is representing not-a-Dr. Huber as a champion of free speech four years after she had actively tried to silence a critic using legal thuggery, even taking advantage of the fact that Ms. Hermes was living in Germany at the time, where the libel laws are far more plaintiff-friendly than they are in the US. The article amused me sufficiently that I might have to write a post just about not-a-Dr. Huber’s COVID-19 activities, because of course she’s gone full COVID-19 crank. Given her cancer quackery before the pandemic, that’s no surprise.

I also can’t help but laugh at Mr. Kirsch’s Substack coordinating action. To me it looks as though it’s just more of his own blather, without any real contribution from anyone else. I also laughed out loud when I got to this idea from Mr. Kirsch:

Debate with prominent pro-vaxxer(s). This is a low probability event. Nobody on their side wants a fair debate. We couldn’t even get pond scum like @ZdoggMD to the debate table. Even very low-profile people like “Your local epidemiologist” wouldn’t debate. Apparently, all these “experts” are deathly afraid of being challenged publicly.

I find it rather amusing that Mr. Kirsch singles out ZDoggMD (a.k.a., Dr. Zubin Damania) for special opprobrium for refusing to “debate” him. The reason is that, of late, a lot of us who promote Science-Based Medicine have become rather disillusioned with ZDoggMD for his turn towards COVID-19 contrarianism and platforming contrarians with bad (and demonstrably wrong) takes on the pandemic, such as Dr. Jay Bhattacharya (who is a cosignatory of the eugenics-adjacent Great Barrington Declaration), Dr. Vinay Prasad (who’s now gone full Godwin over COVID-19 public health interventions), and Monica Gandhi, PhD. In this case, he appears to have shown better-than-usual judgment in refusing to debate a crank like Mr. Kirsch. Naturally, what made me laugh is how, by crying out “Debate me!” and portraying the refusal of real scientists and doctors to “debate” him as fear of him, Mr. Kirsch is confirming my longstanding contention that cranks think that all truth comes from live public debates. My response: Not in science, where live public debate not only allows the crank to Gish gallop to his hearts’ content but also falsely elevates the crank in the eyes of the public to a level similar to that of the scientist. There’s a reason why I’ve long refused to “debate” people like Mr. Kirsch. It’s like the proverbial wrestling with a pig. You get very dirty and the pig loves it.

Another suggestion that Mr. Kirsch has is a survey of the public by “professional polling organizations” to estimate the prevalence of adverse events after COVID-19 vaccination, which is even more of a facepalm-inducing idea. Seriously, this is about the least accurate method I can think of to determine the rate of adverse events after these vaccines. Of course, even though he’s a crank, Mr. Kirsch is not stupid, just ignorant of science. He probably knows that such a survey would vastly overestimate the incidence of adverse events after COVID-19 vaccination. Perhaps that’s why he pivots to suggesting a “university study of vaccine side effects,” an idea to which my response can only be: WTF? Do you not follow PubMed? I just searched PubMed while writing this for “COVID-19 vaccine adverse events,” and the search returned 700 articles, nearly all of them from medical schools and university medical centers. While it is true that some of the articles are probably not relevant—at least not directly relevant—to some of the specific issues of the safety of COVID-19 vaccines about which Mr. Kirsch is fear mongering, many of them are. That means that one more study done by investigators friendly to Mr. Kirsch’s nonsense is not going to change the overwhelming scientific consensus after billions of doses that the currently available vaccines are safe and effective.

Although there are still some other amusing ideas from Mr. Kirsch, I’ll finish with this one:

Convince some prominent narrative supporters to switch sides, e.g., imagine if Sanjay Gupta told the truth about the vaccines and then was fired from CNN. Or a prominent writer for the New York Times to blow the whistle. These acts of courage will start to wake people up.

“Changing sides” is not necessarily an indicator of scientific correctness. Lots of doctors who are now antivaccine “changed sides,” maybe even most of them. They love to use their previous support of vaccines as “evidence” that they are not now antivaccine and that it was the evidence, and only the evidence, that led them to “switch sides.” It wasn’t. People change beliefs for any number of reasons, and when they switch from a science-based belief to a conspiracy theory-based belief system like the antivax belief system promoted by Mr. Kirsch, it is almost never because of good scientific evidence.

The bottom line, unfortunately, is that Mr. Kirsch, a tech bro entrepreneur and millionaire, is a full-on antivax conspiracy theorist. It also amuses me how someone as wealthy as Mr. Kirsch is complains about being “silenced” when he is, in fact, very “loud” in terms of his reach using a free service to promote his misinformation. If Substack ever shut him down, Mr. Kirsch could well afford to hire someone to set up a website where he could publish to his heart’s content, although at his own cost for website maintenance and bandwidth. He doesn’t, though. Instead, he uses a free website (which, granted, does take a 10% cut of the revenue from blogs that charge for content), much as many of us used Blogger 16 years ago and many use free WordPress sites today, even as he complains about other free sites enforcing their terms of service to deplatform others like him who promote disinformation.

Truly, like most cranks, Mr. Kirsch is devoid of self-awareness.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

126 replies on “Steve Kirsch reveals “secret plan to end the vaccine madness””

Three thoughts.

A. The survey idea isn’t even new – that’s the Mawson article, right?

B. Mr. Kirsch has been very desperate to “debate” people for a while. I think it’s because he thinks he’s a smart talker, but realizes he does not have as good a chance in other forums, where people can actually fact check his articles and explain in depth why they’re misleading. Basically, he thinks he can win a demagogic debate, even if he can’t support his claims on the merits.

C. There is actually a healthcare staffing problem, but I think the anti vaccine activists that want to believe it’s all from anti-vaccine professionals are missing the toll of the pandemic on science-based professionals and how hard the past years have been – in part, due to the work of anti-vaccine activists in misleading people in ways that send them to the hospital and the morgues.
In other words, when he pretends he’s working for healthcare workers while making their job harder and sending more people to the hospitals, he’s mistaken. Mistaken at best.

Perhaps firing people for making a private medical decision (which do not affect anyone but themselves), and who worked through the pandemic to boot, was an intentionally destructive decision resulting in staff shortages and increased burnout?

Nah.

There are certainly a few healthcare workers who chose to be fired or resign rather than protect themselves or their patients.

But the evidence is that those are few.

On the other hand, the pandemic has been grinding down healthcare workers even before the vaccines, and having to take care of unvaccinated people dying because of misinformation is hard.

So no. It’s not the mandates that are the main issue.

Getting infected and then spreading that to other people (especially in a medical setting) is not a “personal decision.”

Less than 1% of all hospital employees were lost over mandates. Why is that worrisome to you?

A health care worker not getting vaccinated for the incredibly infectious disease that is currently rampaging around the world is not “private medical decision (which do not affect anyone but themselves)”.

It is essentially the same as driving drunk. It might be one person’s personal decision, but other people with absolutely no say in that decision will pay the price.

And let’s be honest, would you want a surgeon who didn’t believe in hand washing cutting you open?

You are being very silly.

Perhaps firing people for making a private medical decision

It the decision is about how they do their job, then it’s not “private.”
You are free to wear a hard hat in your home, or not.
If you are a construction worker and decide to give the hat a pass, guess what the boss will tell you?
Same with vaccines and other prophylactic measures when you work in healthcare.

resulting in staff shortages and increased burnout?

Yeah, there were soooo many people in healthcare fired over not being vaccinated.
What, about 1% of the staff? 1 per 1000 people ? Less ?

When you are missing 10-30% of staff through understaffing to start with, plus the staff getting sick from covid… It’s not the one nurse fired two weeks ago which was going to make a difference.

Lynx, I was reading articles back in the 80s that based on demographics we were going to have some serious staffing issues about now.
As for cranks who are not practicing the rock bottom basics of infection control, good riddance.

Ah, yes! Substack!
As social media cracked down on misinformational content, there was an altie diasphora to less “discriminating” locales like Telegram, Rumble, Gab, Parler, MeWe and video sites like Brand New Tube and Adams’ Brighteon. Some woo-meisters even directly link to these places on their personal websites through dedicated icons. Unfortunately, a few slip through the “censor” possibly due to their lineage ( RFK jr) or by using either a company or charity name instead of their own ( @ highwiretalk, CHD, PRN).

Substack provides a whole new target rich environment for sceptics because they can rant on pages freely AND make some money whilst they’re misinforming/ disinforming.

@ Orac:
I hope all is going well for you

Seriously. Substack is the new hive of scum and quackery. It’s just a joke at this point. [quackname].substack.com is all you need to begin to chuckle…

@ Denice WalterI was totally unaware of Brand New Tube until reading your comment. I looked over their cover page. You now owe me several strong drinks for having been overwhelmed to so much concentrated stupidity and misinformation. Some day I may even forgive you.

Oh, I’m sorry.
But from your comments I imagine that you are made of rather strong material yourself and have become quite acclimatised to florid crap by reading the drivel posted by ant-vaxxers at RI. Still, that site is a lot of crap in one confined space,

FYI, here’s an interesting paper showing how fringe anti-vax and CT groups sneak under the FB disinfo/misinfo radar and get connected to larger, more mainstream groups, magnifying the spread of their nonsense. Pro-vax groups are larger but don’t network very well on FB.

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9663381

You know it’s a serious paper because it has PDEs! Actually I’ve only read part of it and, at least as far as I’ve gotten, the methodology appears to be reasonably sound.

Yeah. Substack is a rat’s nest of free speech. Alarming that our society allows it to continue.

Orac writes,

..a pretty lousy vacation, and …(Don’t ask. That’s all I’ll say for now.)

MJD says,

Why do you do this? When will you disclose? Hmm….

Okay, I’m going to follow your lead and comment that MJD has published a medical paper to help the “unvaccinated.” It’s titled, “Cytokine Storm Interference”:

Abstract:

Viral infections are a natural and inevitable part of life. In healthy individuals, mortality increases when the body’s innate immune system quickly activates, creating a cytokine storm. A rapid and excessive release of cytokines into the bloodstream can cause acute respiratory distress syndrome. This communication proposes inhibiting cytokine storm development through atopy. Hyper-allergenic skin cream therapy stimulates adaptive immunity to support innate immunity before infection.

@ Orac,

Instead of humiliating antivaxxers, let’s strengthen their immune system to decrease mortality during acute infection. Welcome back Orac and hope you have a vacation-free 2022!

Whenever I hear “strengthen their immune system” I always wonder how the “natural immunity” crowd really knows their immune system has been strengthened. I know there are lab assays for immunoglobulins and specific disease antibodies but I’m sure they never pursue lab test verification. Lack of disease mostly means lack of exposure.

See, when I hear folks talk about “strengthening” their immune system I want to say “have you ever met anyone with an autoimmune condition?”

The last thing the vast, vast majority of people want to do is stimulate their immune system any more than absolutely necessary. That’s how bad things happen. Like hives, everywhere, all the time, for no reason.

JustaTech writes,

“The last thing the vast, vast majority of people want to do is stimulate their immune system any more than absolutely necessary.”

MJD says,

Exactly, that’s why the use of natural rubber latex (NRL) is banned in hospitals. Furthermore, most vaccines are NOW “not manufactured with natural rubber latex.”

@ Orac,

Your minions gave me extraordinary RI on this topic over the years and I’m thankful for their foresight and science-based input.

They must miss the days before vaccines, when everyone had ‘natural immunity’ and nobody died of viral infections…

2022 greetings, and I hope all is well with you and yours, Orac.

2.Heartfelt thanks for taking on Steve Kirsch. I find his attitude causes me irritation at an irrational level, so it is hard for me to respond to him effectively.

Previous article by Jeffrey S. Morris, a statistical data scientist, professor and Director of Biostatistics at the Perelman School of Medicine at the University of Pennsylvania, debunking a previous missive from Kirsch

I will consider any hypothesis, especially in a setting like this pandemic with fast accruing knowledge and a high degree of uncertainty, so I will not outright dismiss these claims. I will evaluate their claims, comparing with what I know in the rigorous data and studies I have already considered. So far, I have found their arguments unconvincing, based on speculation, unproven assertions, ignoring known scientific principles and established data and studies.

One such expert is Steven Kirsch, an engineer and entrepreneur who has recently been making the rounds claiming that the the spike protein is cytotoxic, the mRNA vaccines distribute it all over the body at dangerous levels and cause all kinds of dangerous side effects, including the ovaries where it threatens women’s reproductive health, and that vaccination should stop.

Steven has written a google doc laying out his argument why he thinks the vaccines are dangerous. I will evaluate the executive summary of this document and comment on his claims and evidence. I’ll put their text in blue and my comments in red.

https://www.covid-datascience.com/post/are-the-mrna-vaccines-really-safe-evaluating-claims-by-steven-kirsch-on-danger-of-spike-proteins?fbclid=IwAR0H4EllZXb6kDLfZ6zrgE8mp243lcf8n1dXxaAl5MODttrJMz5InefVxNc

Hi Hi Hi. Kirsch seems no different than any other harlot pretending he’s got the cure other than he has no qualifications to make statements about COVID. At least Bossche was a veterinarian. As usual, the click bait salesman is short on evidence, long on I just know better than all those other people who actually provide good evidence with stellar credentials.

I would recommend a debate in front of a legal body with questions posed before hand. You get 30 seconds to prove what it is you claim. No WWF style crap.

Other than that, if the charlatans can’t clearly state their evidence in the standard scientific body of fact then who cares that much. Sad the there is a consumer segment loving that anti-vaccine traffic.

Thanks for the post / link!

Thanks and more thanks to comments for making some great points.

Sorry about your vacation–get some more puppies to make up for it!
It would not have been any fun worring about Omicron the whole time– that and the little disease vectors; i.e. grandchildren. 😉

A line disappeared!

I feel better now about cancelling Christmas travel plans–should have been after “Sorry about…” and before the last sentence. arghhh!

Lord, just delet it!

Top virologist says Delta defeated, predicts 6+ months of COVID quiet for Israel

timesofisrael.com/top-virologist-says-delta-defeated-predicts-6-months-of-covid-quiet-for-israel/

It is a good thing Israel vaccinated people with a 3rd dose. If not the cases would be even higher……

haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.HIGHLIGHT-covid-in-israel-over-10-000-new-cases-sixth-highest-daily-figure-ever-1.10512919

anybody for a 4th shot?

@ Charles

You are really tiresome. I’ve explained that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between cases, vast majority tested positive, and actually only very few severely sick individuals. I could care less if a nasopharyngeal swab found covid. All I care about is my health. Both inside and out I have potentially pathogenic microbes that my immune system keeps in check, e.g., Clostridium difficile in intestines, and Staphyloccocus aureus in nasal cavity. And microbes enter my body daily thru breathing, eating, minor scratches; but, if my immune system recognizes them, I don’t even know they arrived. Same with vast majority of vaccinated. But vaccine isn’t full proof. A small minority will get severely ill; but they would have gotten ill without the vaccine and the number of severely ill would have been much much higher.

As for a 4th booster. No problem. Getting a little needle in my deltoid, maybe sore for a day or so and maybe even a mild fever for a few hours is much better than getting covid.

You are tiresome and really foolish to just keep repeating.

And your link didn’t work; but in searching I found this: Edo Efradi (2022 Jan 4). Fourth Covid Shot Boosts Protection Fivefold, Initial findings from Israeli Study Suggest. Haaretz

I’m eager to get it, hope it works its way here.

When I copy/pasted Charles’s Haaretz link into my Firefox browser, it worked for me. Not much point to it because all that displayed for me was the headline and first paragraph-and-a-bit; the rest was paywalled, which makes me wonder whether Charles had actually read any more of it than that, or even that.

There seems to be an antivaxer habit on the forum of posting URLs that are missing the scheme part (http: or https:) and the double slashes. It may be to avoid getting the posts put into auto-moderation, but it also makes them non-clickable.

@Greg Are you not intersted that that deaths are not raging in Israel ? You may remember that omicron variant comes from South Africa, a low vax country-

You are really tiresome. I’ve explained that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between cases, vast majority tested positive, and actually only very few severely sick individuals

Joel, you’re the one being ‘tiresome’ again. Your ‘big difference’ is actually a big goalposts shift. The virologist wasn’t considering just reduction in sickness and deaths, but actually a drastic, sustainable reduction in cases after their third booster. That hasn’t happened and the pandemic is still raging in Israel, and prompting their decision to go with a fourth shot.

Your disingenuity aside, even setting the bar at reducing sickness and deaths still doesn’t offer a sustainable solution for the long run. Not ending — yes, I can see you biting at that to mislead again!.. Not building herd immunity by dramatically reducing cases will lead to a prolongation of the pandemic and the chance of the virus mutating into dangerous strains that will result into sickness and deaths. And, yes, Joel, whether you want to admit it or not, there are very good reasons to suspect that over vaccination poses serious health risks.

Joel, you, Joe Bidden and other vaccine cheerleaders continue to peddle the lie that everything is hunky-dory as long as the vaccines are reducing sickness and deaths. Perhaps that lie would be cute if it wasn’t so damn dangerous. We continue to pay a steep price for not acknowledging that the vaccination ship has seriously run a foul and needs to be righted.

“We continue to pay a steep price for not acknowledging that the vaccination ship has seriously run a foul and needs to be righted.”

The danger comes when people listen to liars like you and mjd.

“If you want to see where these nurses (claiming mass casualties from Covid-19 vaccines) are coming from and why Mr. Kirsch likes them, a previous article in the same source from October is just chock full of the same sort of claims, complete with conspiracy mongering, including claims that doctors won’t fill out VAERS reports”

The Conejo Guardian, professed source of “independent community news” and undoubtedly a vastly underrated source, recently ran an editorial complaining about lies/censorship/coverup of what really happened at the Capitol on January 6th. You see, there actually were a million people there, the major media didn’t cover it in order to foment death, and it was all Antifa’s fault anyway.

Agenda? Nonsense!! There’s no reason to think that the Conejo Guardian’s reporting on the anonymous Ventura County nurses is anything but groundbreaking, Pulitzer Prize-winning material.

re ” chock full of the same claims” of mass Covid vaccine casualties

I just played audio of today’s noontime woo-fest ( GaryNull.com)) AND after the hoary old woo-meister maintained that research from Columbia U asserted the same situation, a caller from Columbia U who got through screening ( 56 minutes in) challenged him, asking for evidence that people are being harmed by the vaccine rather than by Covid!
His response included much shuffling, jiving and pressured speech as he firehosed the caller with dodgy stats and studies, promising written materials on his website and an explanation tomorrow.
A good example of how to ambush an accomplished prevaricator.

Alright:
The Nullmacher “answered” the Columbia University-based gentleman calling yesterday who questioned his statements that the vaccinated – not the unvaccinated- are dying/ in ICU by the thousands ( The Gary Null Show today, PRN.live; at 30 minute mark) by citing Pantazatos on VAERS, Rose and Malone.
Is that all you’ve got?
SRSLY. He’s a professional ( i.e. highly paid) misinformer and I swear that Orac’s garden variety trolls do a better job of supporting totally imaginary positions than he does.
That’s what they call a left-handed compliment from me. About the only kind I’d ever write for them. You are incredibly bad but there is someone worse than you.

What (specific) “quagmire”?
Who are these trained and experienced “outsiders”?
How, exactly is the medical establishment “corrupt”? Are you talking about the outrageous price of insulin? (Go shout at MBAs and capitalism, not scientists/doctors.) Precision is essential.

If they’re trained and experienced they’re not outsiders. If it’s outsiders that are wanted they must be untrained and inexperienced. That’s the only way to escape the pharma taint. Our episodic troll is an eminently qualified outsider.

How long must we wrestle with the pig in the quagmire to get to the truth? I have tickets to the Knicks game.

@ jlbatx

Check out my response/comment to you on last exchange. You posted video from Canadian Covid Care. I tore it apart. Literally they lied about several things and really are a small group selling alternative treatments. You believe them because you want to believe them, not because you have even a minimal understanding of how Covid-19 works or how the vaccine works. There are now literally hundreds of studies from around the world where the overwhelming majority of hospitalized and dead covid patients were unvaccinated. And many studies that the risk of serious adverse reactions is minuscule.

Do read my last comment on previous exchange.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/12/27/2021-the-year-the-weaponization-of-vaers-went-mainstream/

Everyone? The eager med student? The 65 year surgeon about to retire? The nurse anesthetist?

There is no conspiracy. The first person to break ranks would make a fortune and win the Nobel Prize.

There is greed and spin. But less than in the “natural” cures segment. Do you remember when somebody tested all the herbal “supplements” at Target and they were all ground up weeds? The scam worked because supplements don’t actually do anything. And the markup on weeds is fantastic. Big Pharma would wet themselves trying to get near that.

You could probably argue that the greed and grift in the medical establishment is greater by volume than the same in the alties, even though it’s way smaller by percentage.

But of course, talking about the problems with insurance and pricing and defensive over-testing and hedge funds buying patents and jacking prices up and … well. They’re all real but they’re also things that are hard to fix and don’t have clear right answers.

vs the alties, where the clear right answer is “fucking don’t.”

“I’ll put in place a plan to deal with this pandemic responsibly, I’ve already done it. I’m not going to shut down the country, I’m not going to shut down the economy, but I’m going to shut down the virus”

“Donald Trump still doesn’t have a plan to get this virus under control. His failure to lead is costing American lives.”

“Trump still doesn’t have a plan to get this virus under control. I do”

So today the US hit 1 million infections for the day, almost 2,000 deaths and hospitalization rates equal to February 2021. As cases go up the deaths will follow in two weeks, or have been told by many on this site

coronavirus.jhu.edu

If he has a plan, he must not have implemented yet or was his plan for all of us to get covid.

You would notice that vaccination fixes the problem. You cannot change your forefathers. Entirely different thing,

@ Greg

You write: “Not building herd immunity by dramatically reducing cases will lead to a prolongation of the pandemic and the chance of the virus mutating into dangerous strains that will result into sickness and deaths.”

Yep, if we built herd immunity from a combination of naturally infected and vaccinated could shorten or even end pandemic. And moron that you are, the chance of the virus mutating into dangerous strains for anyone who understands viral mutations will more likely occur in those unvaccinated and those who, though infected, low to no antibodies found. As I’ve written several times, if vaccinated infected, vast majority clear virus rather quickly.

You write: “And, he just can’t take it anymore! It needs to be said! Macron is the latest leader to dish decorum and express his loathing and resentment for the ‘unvaxxed ‘Jews’.
Again, even though it seems we are returning to the past, this persecution is justified. The unvaxxed ‘Jews’ are derailing public health

The article you link to says: “French President Emmanuel Macron had said earlier that he wanted to “piss off” unvaccinated people by making their lives so complicated they would
end up getting jabbed. He was speaking in an interview with Le Parisien newspaper in which he also called unvaccinated people irresponsible and unworthy of being considered citizens.”

And nowhere does it mention Jews at all. As I said, I would love to meet up with you face to face. Even at 75 with arthritis I would love to have the opportunity to put you in the hospital. You dishonest lowlife sack of shit!

@Joel – people just need to stop responding to him. It’s been obvious for years now that his sole satisfaction in life is trying to get a rise out of people like us…if we all just stopped responding to him at all, he’d eventually get bored and go somewhere else.

@ Lawrence

You are absolutely right; however, Greg is either an unrepentant anti-semite and probably racist as well or just an extremely sick/disturbed individual who will say anything, regardless of how absolutely despicable, to get a rise out of people. In either case, thought its Orac’s blog, I think he should ban Greg, either temporary suspension or permanently. He contributes NOTHING.

And, why is Joel so incensed by the Nazi comparison that he desires so much to kick my ass should he meet me in person?. One must understand that Joel prides himself on being an enlightened, intellectual giant where justice, compassion, and fairness reign supreme for him. He does not want to consider those things are just luxuries, toys to humor himself with after his material needs are satisfied. Seriously, how does an ‘enlightened’ man with so many initials behind is name accepts that justice, compassion, and fairness are just full-belly talk to be shed at the first hint of hungry pangs, and even if those pangs are arbitrary?

From time to time, I meet with my ‘antivaxx’ friends; I scoff at their instance that it’s all a nefarious plot, cunningly foisted on us by the ‘elites’. They fail to appreciate how far more mundane things are. They involve getting that grant, getting published, paying the mortgage or rent, enrolling thr kids in team sports, taking a family vacation… Boring stuff, and, to a greater or lesser extent, we are all complicit.

In a way, Joel is like my antivaxx friends. They stand for loftier explanations, and not wanting to accept that our existence and purpose often comes down to satisfying those two basic principles and derivatives of them: eating and screwing. Perhaps a few amongst us stand for more, but, I will comfortably suggest, not Joel!

Ok, Joel, let’s reflect on these examples…

French President Emmanuel Macron had said earlier that he wanted to “piss off” (Black, Gay, Muslim, Women, Disabled, Senior) people by making their lives so complicated they would
end up getting jabbed. He was speaking in an interview with Le Parisien newspaper in which he also called (Black, Gay, Muslim, Women, Disabled, Senior) people irresponsible and unworthy of being considered citizens.”

In the same way we would be outrage if Macron had mentioned the other groups in that statement, we should be outrage that he spoke about the unvaxxed in that way. Like all the other groups, the unvaxxed are people with inalienable rights, and with the unvaxxed exercising their right to refuse an unwanted medical procedure.

And….

French President Emmanuel Macron had said earlier that he wanted to “piss off” (drunk drivers, seat-belt violaters, drug dealers, pedophiles, people who smoke in public) by making their lives so complicated they would
stop breaching goverment’s policies. He was speaking in an interview with Le Parisien newspaper in which he also called (drunk drivers, seat-belt violators, drug dealers, pedophiles, people who smoke in public) irresponsible and unworthy of being considered citizens.”

Had Macron made that statement, we would find it more acceptable because those groups are engaged in illegal or criminal conducts, and such conducts breed contemptuos feelings. Including the unvaxxed amongst those groups, however, also seems right for some. The unvaxxed may not be engaged in any ‘violations’, but their very existence as people is worthy of contempt and persecution. Just as it was for Jews in the past!

Likely, Joel won’t concede, but I am hoping my examples will help educate on why the persecution of the unvaxxed is in keeping with Nazism. Joel likes to define Naxism as a death cult and with their brutalities being the defining features. For me, Naxism was about hate and contempt for people who were different, and the brutalities were just outward manifestations of that attitude. You should see it not so much as a death-cult, but as a hate cult. It’s the same hate and contempt that is at the root of the vaccine persecution,.and even if people like Joel don’t want to see it.

When you change the target from a group who are choosing to do things harmful to public health to groups defined by innate traits they cannot change, it turns out that, in fact, you do change the meaning of the statement.

In other anti-vax news…

Novak Djokovic was denied entry to AUS because the state of Victoria did not accept his type of vaccine exemption. He’s in the airport perhaps may be sent home. Situation ongoing.

The official statements here so far are that Djokovic arrived at Australian immigration control with a visa that had no option of a vaccine exemption for entry.

There have also been reports that he also did not have sufficient documentation to support his grounds for exemption.

Djokovic hasn’t made any statement about what the grounds for his exemption were, but they have been reported to have been that he has had a COVID infection within the past 6 months. The last publicly acknowledged COVID infection that Djokovic has had was outside that timeframe.

Here’s a report from the Australian national broadcaster:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-06/novak-djokovic-visa-rejected-in-melbourne-australian-open/100740812

Tennis world number one Novak Djokovic is set to be deported from Australia after his visa was cancelled this morning, the federal government says.

The 34-year-old landed at Melbourne’s Tullamarine airport late last night and was detained by Australian Border Force (ABF) officials.

In a statement, the ABF confirmed Djokovic did not meet the entry requirements and his visa was cancelled.

Djokovic might legally challenge the rejection of his entry into Australia.

PS: Djokovic’s entry into Australia is a Federal government matter, not the Victorian state government. Victoria determines what his quarantine requirements are to enter the state once he has immigration clearance.

Tennis Australia (who run the Australian Open) then has a vaccination exemption policy to determine whether unvaccinated players may play.

Djokovic has started legal proceedings to challenge the deportation order. There has already been a preliminary hearing:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-06/novak-djokovic-visa-rejected-in-melbourne-australian-open/100740812

@ prl:

Thanks for those links. I’ve been following the story myself.
I am waiting for the alties/ freedom crowd to comment. So far, not much. But it seems to be just their cup of tea: Novak fights the Power!
Actually, I don’t know how far he is immersed into woo but he is a great athlete and has supported UNICEF and has a personal foundation that provides pre-school education for children in his country. It would be a shame if he held crazy altie beliefs but hey, athletes can be superstitious about the weirdest things.

Amongst the alties I survey, Australia has been singled out as a police state for its ‘draconian” ( i.e. realistic) PH policies concerning Covid. Do you really have “Covid camps” where the unvaccinated are herded? Do you have to “show your papers” everywhere you go? But then, that’s what they say about my neck of the ( non) woods as well.

Hi, Denice. Most of the public health measures to do with COVID here are state government matters, and vary between states and vary with the level of infection and the impact that it has on the health system.

Currently in the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) where I live, masks are required in indoor public settings, you are required to check into businesses by scanning a QR code, and you’re expected to maintain 1.5 metre (~5ft) distancing from other people in public spaces, indoor and outdoor.

Earlier in the pandemic, we were required to isolate at home for 2 weeks after my wife went to Sydney for her mother’s funeral (max ten mourners) when Sydney had relatively high levels of infection and Canberra had few.

People who arrive from overseas or who visiting from one state from another have been required to quarantine in various ways, including at home, and in quarantine hotels. When you hear of COVID “concentration camps”, they generally refer to places like Howard Springs near Darwin, which has the somewhat Orwellian name of the “Center for National Resilience”. Howard Springs was formerly a mining company’s accommodation facility for fly in/fly out workers. Other states have set up similar facilities when it was found that hotels don’t actually work well as quarantine centres.

At various times, states here have closed their borders to other states with high levels of COVID infections.

In general, the quarantine centers aren’t used for “the unvaxxed”, and in any case, at the moment, you can’t enter Australia without full vaccination anyway (though there are some medical exemptions), and travel between the states is also limited to the fully vaccinated, where the state borders aren’t closed.

When I searched for information about Howard Springs, I found this first-hand account in the Washington Post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/australia-darwin-covid-quarantine/2021/05/21/f72bc0ac-ad1b-11eb-82c1-896aca955bb9_story.html

Working from home has been used to try to keep businesses running without the need for direct contact in the office, but obviously that’s not possible for many businesses, and there have been lockdowns where it was pretty much “everyone stay at home except to by essentials”. There have been Federal and state support programs that have assisted people who have lost work because of restrictions, and to help businesses retain staff when business has been affected by restrictions.
Some areas of employment have vaccine mandates, e.g. health care and police. In some states, proof of vaccination is required for entry into business premises – it’s checked using the same app that’s used for QR code checkin.

The sorts of public health measures that have been used for COVID here are broadly similar to what were used during the polio epidemics of the first half of the 20th century and during the “Spanish” flu pandemic.

There have been vocal and sometimes violent, though mostly contained, demonstrations against almost all aspects of the public health measures, but especially against mask wearing and vaccination. Some of the demonstrations have been claimed, almost certainly incorrectly, as having been the largest in Australia ever.

While there’s been the usual bickering between state leaders and between them and the federal leadership, and more than enough ineptitude in all political quarters, there are no actual COVID denialists in any positions of power, and no-one in power has been pushing “cures” like hyrdoxyquinone or ivermectin.

Vaccination levels are generally high – just over 90% of all aged 16+ for Australia as a whole, and over 99% for the ACT where I live. Vaccination of those aged 5-15 is starting this month. The intention is to get most vaccinated before the summer vacation finishes in February, but I doubt that’s going to happen.

Anyway, the public health efforts here seem to have worked reasonably well, though the Omicron variant is causing a lot more cases than earlier variants:
USA: 177567 cases/million, 2561 deaths/million
Australia: 26385 cases/million, 89 deaths/million

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

@ prl:

The reports of “concentration camps” in AUS are by altie loons not the reality based press who congratulate AUS for their success.

That issue bothers me greatly: that there is a significant portion of the population who
accepts BS like that and that alt media/ alt med and political factions gather such a large audience worldwide.
I’ve always said that 3 situations led to Andy and the growth of anti-vax : in the 1990s,
the DSM changes about autism, greater freedom to market supplements and the GROWTH OF THE INTERNET.

@Denice Yes, I know that the “concentration camps in Australia” was a thing of the US lunar fringes. I was just mentioning the actual facilities that they’re probably talking about.

BTW, did you see this exchange between Ted Cruz and Michael Gunnar (Chief Minister of the Northern Territory in Australia) last October?
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/michael-gunner-hits-back-at-us-republican-ted-cruz-over-nt-covid-19-vaccine-mandate/8434e20c-cb4d-46fa-8109-d26097c05832

Djokovic has been granted an interim court order preventing his deportation until his case can be heard on Monday.

https://www.9news.com.au/national/novak-djokovic-visa-cancelled-by-australia-border-force-after-tennis-star-held-for-hours-at-melbourne-airport-australian-open-exemption/fd14c4c8-ba1c-45cf-b02c-259319de9863

It has also emerged that it appears that Tennis Australia has been telling players that they can get a vaccine exemption if they’ve had a recent COVID infection, even though senior bureaucrats in the Federal health department told them otherwise in November, though, it’s fair to say, in rather confusingly bureaucratic language.

Australian immigration is also following up on two other Australia Open players who appear to have also used Tennis Australia advice about previous COVID infection as grounds for vaccine exemption:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-06/border-force-investigate-more-medical-exemptions-novak-djokovic/100742868

Srdjan Djokovic, Novak’s father and travelling with him, is not at all happy about the business:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-07/novak-djokovic-dad-says-deportation-is-politically-motivated/100743158

I doubt that anything interesting will happen in this circus before Monday Australian time.

But if you want a news-as-it-happens feed on the story, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation has one:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-07/live-novak-djokovic-immigration-detention-australian-open/100743442

According to news.com.au/ sport : Djokovic has expressed pseudoscientific beliefs such as how emotions can change water and other BS. He delayed elbow surgery because he thought he might heal on his own ( truth is, I sometimes might feel the same). I’m sure that food woo is involved as well.

“Djokovic has expressed pseudoscientific beliefs such as how emotions can change water”

Is that, like, reverse homeopathy?

No. The article I cite ( news.com.au/ sport- tennis Djokovoc) quotes NYT writer, Ben Rothenberg, about ND’s beliefs that prayers and good intentions can change the composition of food and water so that even the most contaminated could become “healing”. Other stuff about a sacred place in Bosnia. Drinking warm not cold water,
Using honey, especially Manuka.

From what I researched, his diet ideas, although strict, don’t seem to be absolutely nuts. Gluten free, no sugar and largely plant based with small amounts of white meat and salmon. Another article spoke about his preference for vegan meals and his new restaurant in Monte Carlo.

“However, when they use their status as doctors to lend more plausibility to dangerous misinformation and conspiracy theories because they come from a trusted healthcare professional, that’s a different thing. Misusing professional stature that way is profoundly unprofessional and unethical, and it is not at all unreasonable that there should be professional consequences resulting from such behavior, be they from state medical boards, professional societies, or certifying boards.”

There are at least two sides to any controversy, and often there is some truth and some error on all sides. In this case, there are MDs who see no problems with the covid mRNA vaccines, and other MDs who do see problems.

Because Orac is absolutely certain that there are NO problems with these vaccines, he perceives the “other side” as malicious and dangerous, and/or stupid, and deserves to be censored.

So the “other side” is afraid to express an opinion since they could lose their medical license, or have their career damaged in other ways. Orac does not want the “other side” to be heard.

I think the official story, the one Orac devoutly believes, may be partly correct. I also think most of the dissent from the official story is suppressed. Orac’s absolute certainty makes him sound like an irrational fanatic, a politician with an agenda, rather than a scientist. His belief that non-official views should be censored confirms this.

I don’t think he is paid by the drug industry directly, but his research grants very likely depend on them. And even if there were no financial or career incentives, herd mentalities are very common and certain personality types fall easily into angry self-righteous mobs.

Check Orac’s funding, he has spoken multiple times about writing a grant proposal to NIH (it funds lots of health research).
Any case, try to argue with him. If it is Big Pharma propaganda, it must be obviously false,

@ Indie Rebel

You write: “There are at least two sides to any controversy, and often there is some truth and some error on all sides. In this case, there are MDs who see no problems with the covid mRNA vaccines, and other MDs who do see problems. Because Orac is absolutely certain that there are NO problems with these vaccines, he perceives the “other side” as malicious and dangerous, and/or stupid, and deserves to be censored. I don’t think he is paid by the drug industry directly, but his research grants very likely depend on them. And even if there were no financial or career incentives, herd mentalities are very common and certain personality types fall easily into angry self-righteous mobs.”

You just don’t know when to stop. The overwhelming majority, I mean 90-95% of MDs support the covid mRNA vaccines. It is a handful who don’t; and at least several of them also support homeopathy, etc. and offer ivermectin and other remedies that have NOT been found to be of benefit in clinical research. And the overwhelming majority of epidemiologists, public health experts, etc. also support the vaccines. In addition, there are now probably over 1,000 peer-reviewed papers, reports from various national health care agencies, etc. that have found the vaccines highly effective with minuscule number of serious adverse effects. There have been cases with Delta and Omicron; but those who were fully vaccinated were far less at risk for serious disease, hospitalizations, long covid, and death. In fact, data on cases is mainly based on such tests as nasopharyngeal swabs which find covid in nasal cavity. In most cases, the immune system will either completely remove or keep at bay, just as it does with many potentially pathogenic microbes that we have in and on our bodies at all times and the daily assault of thousands.

As for Orac “absolutely certain there are NO problems with these vaccines,” he has actually written about, for instance, few cases of myocarditis, etc. One more example of your unscientific paranoid approach, make absolutes of anything you disagree with and your DISHONESTY. And I don’t and he doesn’t see most antivaccinationists as “malicious” but they are dangerous and/or stupid. Dangerous because they put individuals who listen to them and don’t get vaccinated and innocent third parties (people who couldn’t be vaccinated or the vaccines, because of some genetic predisposition, etc didn’t take effect) who these individuals may infect. As for herd mentality, don’t you ever give up? Is it herd mentality to believe in the germ theory of infectious diseases? There are a few who don’t. When the overwhelming science supports a position, it is NOT herd mentality, it is following the science. However, I remember that you, in previous comments, promote spiritual approach and that we should assume energy fields currently not measurable. This blog, as I’ve said several times, is about science. The two aforementioned to meet current scientific criteria, so take your comments and either shove them where the sun doesn’t shine or at some religious gathering.

So, I repeat, not for you; but for open-minded reasonable people, there are not always two sides when overwhelming science supports one.

Keep making a fool of yourself. Keep making absolute statements about Orac.

“When the overwhelming science supports a position, it is NOT herd mentality, it is following the science.”

Ideas that do NOT support the official position are censored! It only seems like most medical scientists agree with the official position — either they don’t dare jeopardize their career, or they have been censored. And only research that promotes the vaccines can be published. It drives Orac nuts when a mainstream publication dares to criticize them.

“Keep making absolute statements about Orac.”

I know exactly how Orac thinks, have read his blogs for many years. He NEVER has said anything that I could not have predicted he would say.

By the way, predictability in one’s views is a sure sign of being an ideologue, rather than a thinker.

You’re predictable. Very predictable. Further, in accord with Shannon, the information content of your posts is 0. Have fun, ideologue.

IR: “By the way, predictability in one’s views is a sure sign of being an ideologue, rather than a thinker.’

IR’s ability to trigger massive excursions in irony meters is predictable.

“Promoting dumb, easily debunked nonsense is the sign of an Iconoclastic True Scientist! Anyone who says otherwise is censoring me!!!&*!”

Ad nauseam.

@ Indie Rebel

You are SICK. I could give references to peer-reviewed articles that are critical of mRNA covid vaccines. i could give URLs to probably 100 different blogs, etc I could give URLs to testimony before Congress, Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, to state assemblies, city meetings, etc. You are dishonest and FULL OF SHIT.

You write: “I know exactly how Orac thinks, have read his blogs for many years. He NEVER has said anything that I could not have predicted he would say.”

Wow! talk about delusions of grandeur. Did you predict he would discuss myocarditis, etc.?

You write: “By the way, predictability in one’s views is a sure sign of being an ideologue, rather than a thinker.”

Yep, if one understands viruses, begins assembling reports on covid, etc. and predicts that without mitigation and vaccines that number of hospitalized and deaths will increase, yep, they are an ideologue. YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!!1

And for someone who rejected any evolutionary writer, not even willing to read what they wrote, by labeling them an “atheist” I can easily predict what you will say. Basically, label anyone who you believe disagrees with you on any topic rather than reading carefully what they write and trying to refute specific points.

YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT

And if you really have a PhD in cognitive psychology that says a lot about whatever school you went to and it isn’t good because they apparently didn’t teach you to think like a scientist or, maybe they did, you faked it, got your degree and reverted to whatever form of SICKO you are

I think a subset of “mavericks” in academia and elsewhere are what Billy Eddy calls “high conflict personalities”. The issue isn’t their beliefs.Their troubled relationships are largely a result of their own disordered behavior, but they lack any abilty to reflect on their own role in their troubles and instead see themselves as victims of persecution.

@IR

“Ideas that do NOT support the official position are censored!”

Prove censorship against such unsupported ideas. I’m not seeing people from the antivaxx movement going to jail or losing public forums for expressing their ideas. Seems those whose ideas are unproven or unsupported get criticism with reasonable footnoted contradiction.
Some ideas from the antivaxx movement should be censored! Certainly those that express a desire to kill healthcare workers. That is not protected in any way. The antivaxx movement has become little more than a threatening mob casting all who don’t agree with them as Nazi’s or something not quite as Nazi.
I would agree with Joel that almost all physicians support vaccination as a means of preventing severe disease. They are not coerced into this either.
I would consider you part of the antivaxx movement because we know what you think and say. Still waiting for you to prove otherwise.

You yourself mentioned substack, which is obviously not censored. It just that nobody who something about cancer would not believe what Huber says

<

blockquote>So the “other side” is afraid to express an opinion since they could lose their medical license

In Australia, there are public health officials whose job it is to report publicly on a weekly basis on adverse reactions to COVID vaccinations. For example:
https://www.tga.gov.au/periodic/covid-19-vaccine-weekly-safety-report-06-01-2022

Links to a similar process in the USA have been posted in this topic by Dorit Reiss:
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2022/01/03/steve-kirsch-reveals-secret-plan-to-end-the-vaccine-madness/#comment-456445

@Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH

Hope you took your blood pressure meds today.

“And for someone who rejected any evolutionary writer, not even willing to read what they wrote, by labeling them an ‘atheist'”

You’re confusing me with someone else. I believe in evolution and have read many evolutionary writers. Not sure how my comments make you so nuts, but it’s interesting to see.

@ Indie Rebel

At 75 my usual BP is 120/70 and sometimes lower. My total cholesterol is usually below 175 and my high density lipids around 65, so, just one more stupid statement by you. This Sunday I will donate 1 unit of plasma and 1 unit of platelets, hoping to reach maybe 30 gallons of blood donations before can’t anymore. How many times have you donated blood? I also used to volunteer at soup kitchens and have done some other things to help my fellow man. What have you done?

And in the exchange on Orac’s “America’s Quack Dr. Oz is running for Senate to become the new Rand Paul” you said exactly what I wrote you said. And moron, I didn’t say you didn’t believe in evolution; but that your interpretation deviates from the vast majority of scientists, basically that you added spiritual world and currently unmeasurable energy.

You are just a DISHONEST LIAR.

@Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH

I can insult you as well as you can insult me. But I am not interested in reverting to preschool style fighting. Brag about yourself, call me stupid, have a good old time, I am not joining in.

@ Indie Rebel

You say “Brag about yourself”. You were the moron who said: “Hope you took your blood pressure meds today.”

Just one more example of how really stupid you are. You don’t seem to even understand what you write.

@1000 Links to a Furlong

You are not aware of the doctors who have been censored! You think none have concerns about the vaccines because you don’t see them on mainstream news or social media! You don’t know about their reasons or evidence, because it is censored!

@ Indie Rebel

And yet you seem to have had no problem accessing what the alleged “censored” doctors have to say. Are you psychic or just psychotic???

Personally, given that I really understand how vaccines work, including the mRNA covid vaccines and have followed the use of the vaccines, the now around 1,000 studies showing minuscule risk of serious adverse reactions and that the vast majority of deaths, etc. have been among the unvaccinated, especially when one considers that the vaccinated were mainly senior citizens and/or those with comorbidies, I wish we could have censored outliers, either stupid like you and/or just lies wanting to promote their unscientific alternative medicines.

So, again, how come you and so many people refusing to be vaccinated are aware of the “censored” few idiots???

Exactly.
The people I read/ hear cry, ” Censorship!”, yet somehow, I am able to survey and quote them in detail nearly every day.
Here is an amusingly blatant example: Tony Lyons, publisher of Skyhorse, well known for its enablement of woo and anti-vax., appeared on Null’s show earlier this past week ( prn.live, not sure of exact day) complaining about ‘censorship’ of his company’s latest triumph, RFK jr’s book on Fauci. He said that Amazon/ others fix numbers so that the book’s true position on top of the best sellers’ list is obscured; there are very few reviews in newspapers, magazines or television, except for bad ones.
YET he brags about how it sold over 600K copies.
If it was being censored, how could that people have learned about it so that 600K chose to buy it? Even if only 10% bought it.
Similarly, altie sites/ “stores” say they are being censored yet proudly display their numbers: page views, followers etc. Also, trolls at RI have quite a bito of freedom to comment whatever they choose, often dozens or hundreds of times for years.

They confuse lack of widespread acceptance with being constrained.

In other news…
AoA and Katie Wright twitter have a new anti-vax hero: Novak Djokovic.

My Idiot Rabble magic decoder ring says that what it is REALLY trying to say is

“The undeniable fact that there is no proof is absolute proof that I am correct!”

@ IR

Fine line between concern and doomsday prophecies. Not.

Social media and news programs are not venues to voice concern for medical professionals as far as I’m concerned. Medical professionals are held to a higher standard when it comes to describing or explaining such concern.

I’d say 99% of medical professionals don’t ascribe to antivaxx sentiments and are not coerced to support vaccination. They do so because they know it works. The data shows that it works. Won’t say no medical professionals ascribe to antivaxx sentiment but they are noticeable outliers. Personally, if a physician made unsubstantiated claims that had the potential to cause harm to patients — they ought to be censored.

Seem to be some antivaxx doctors and others still chatting up doom on social media so that censorship claim is to me just clearly false.

Do you have secret communications with these censored physicians or something?

@Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH

I didn’t refuse to be vaccinated. I got the vaccines just in case they might do something to protect my friends and relatives who have risk factors.

“around 1,000 studies showing minuscule risk of serious adverse reactions”

No one can get funding to publish research showing serious adverse reactions. The system is very much rigged by the drug industry, which pretty much controls the funding agencies.

“the vast majority of deaths, etc. have been among the unvaccinated, especially when one considers that the vaccinated were mainly senior citizens and/or those with comorbidies”

You actually think the vast majority of deaths were unvaccinated people without comorbidities? I have no idea where your information comes from. I know that is not true. For one thing, many died before the vaccines, and they were mostly sick and elderly. And since the vaccines, the younger and healthy are still VERY unlikely to die from covid.

We can’t be sure of the numbers, since deaths WITH covid were not separated from deaths FROM covid. But I am sure you are very very wrong.

IR: “No one can get funding to publish research showing serious (vaccine) adverse reactions.”

Wrong yet again.

For example, research looking at neurological implications of vaccination was funded by two antivaccine organizations. Unfortunately for them, things didn’t turn out as they’d hoped.

“…the autism advocacy organization SafeMinds recently funded research it hoped would prove vaccines cause autism in children. But this effort appears to have backfired for the organization—whose mission is to raise awareness about how certain environmental exposures may be linked to autism—since the study SafeMinds supported showed a link between autism and vaccines does not exist.”

http://newsweek.com/anti-vaxxers-accidentally-fund-study-showing-theres-no-link-between-autism-and-379245

There are numerous examples of research showing bona fide, rare serious adverse effects of vaccination. They are overshadowed by a variety of sloppy and even fraudulent studies generated for the purpose of demonizing vaccines with phony links to chronic diseases or deaths (some of those were retracted from the scientific literature because of gross flaws). There’d be even more such crappy studies if the millions of dollars poured into antivax groups by people like the Selzes and Joe Mercola actually went toward purported research, rather than financing billboards and lobbying efforts, or just lining the pockets of antivaxers.

The “no funding for antivaccine research” claim can be added to the growing pile of IR claims that he’ll never admit are false.

@ Indie Rebel

You write: “No one can get funding to publish research showing serious adverse reactions. The system is very much rigged by the drug industry, which pretty much controls the funding agencies.” FIRST, THE CDC MONITORS ADVERSE EVENTS. NOPE, VAERS IS SUSPECTED ADVERSE EVENTS AND THE CDC INVESTIGATES. SECOND, I JUST WENT TO PUBMED, TYPED IN “adverse events covid vaccines” AND GOT 841 RESULTS AND I SKIMMED A FEW AND THERE WERE ONES ON SERIOUS ADVERSE EVENTS. THIRD, IF THEY AREN’T BE PUBLISHED, ARE BEING SUPPRESSED, HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THEM? PSYCHIC OR PSYCHOTIC? As I wrote, and you ignore, I have studied immunology, etc. and have read quite a bit on the mRNA vaccines, how they work, etc. You are just FULL OF SHIT.

You write: “You actually think the vast majority of deaths were unvaccinated people without comorbidities? I have no idea where your information comes from. I know that is not true. For one thing, many died before the vaccines, and they were mostly sick and elderly. And since the vaccines, the younger and healthy are still VERY unlikely to die from covid. We can’t be sure of the numbers, since deaths WITH covid were not separated from deaths FROM covid. But I am sure you are very very wrong.”

I didn’t write that the vast majority of deaths were without comorbidities; but that the first and largest numbers to be vaccinated were seniors and/or those with comorbidies, so by comparison, means simply that if seniors and/or comorbidities deaths compared with others, mainly with same range of comorbidities, shows unvaccinated exponentially higher, what does that say? AND MORON THAT YOU ARE, FOR INSTANCE, ONE STUDY FOUND THAT A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF AMERICANS HAVE COMORBIDITIES, SO ALMOST ALL AT RISK AND NO ONE KNOWS IF THE HAVE A GENETIC PREDISPOSITION. ONE OF THE COMORBIDITIES IS OBESITY. DO YOU THINK IF SOMEONE IS OBESE, HAS TYPE 2 DIABETES, ETC. THAT THEIR LIVES ARE NOT VALUABLE? AND, YEP, THE YOUNGER WITHOUT COMORBIDITIES FAR LESS LIKELY TO DIE; BUT SOME HAVE AND AS EVEN YOU WROTE, YOU GOT THE VACCINE TO PROTECT OTHERS.

As for deaths WITH covid separated from FROM covid, actually, there is some data that we have undercounted deaths from covid. For instance, if someone with cancer died at home, yep, they may have died only a few months later or maybe lived several years; but if they died at home, not always tested for covid that might actually have hastened their deaths. Same with people who died of heart attacks. Even if they had heart problems, could have lived longer, in some cases much longer. But, of course, for you, who cares if people live longer or not???
And, the testing for covid and recording has been chaotic. Some hospitals did test and record, depends how they recorded. One can still look at cause of death and sort out and the CDC has been looking at this. As for you being “sure I am wrong,” I’m sure the vast majority following this blog already understands that your level of certainty, well, while I’m not on blood pressure meds, so really should go back on your antipsychotic delusions of grandeur meds.

@ Indie Rebel

Just an example of your unscientific mentality and how you ignore when shown wrong. Below is your comments and my reply regarding funding of research on alternative medicine and Reiki. So, our government established The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Medicine, has spent over $2 billion researching it and that includes Reiki. And a search of PubMed found 3,251 results. And, there have been numerous studies; but when it comes to Reiki energy, etc. you live in a fantasy world. If it involves any type of measurable energy, it would have been picked up. Reiki probably works as a placebo. We know that people often seek help when at the peak of discomfort/illness; but level of mainly caused by illness, etc. itself; but over that is how people react to it, which is how placebo works. People visit Lourdes, bathe in waters and feel better. People feel better after hypnosis. No strange energy, simply our own minds. I have suffered from Cluster Migraine since my teen years. Cluster Migraines are often called suicide headaches. On a scale of 1 to 10, they are often an 11. So, simply, any other pains during my life compared to it experienced as less. And when I have experienced other pains, I often focus on deep abdominal breathing, etc and that helps. Of course, I also, if it lasts, contact a doctor. And so, below just shows how incredibly dishonest you are because you NEVER even acknowledged what I wrote about Reiki. And Orac isn’t trashing people’s spiritual beliefs, just their claims how it works scientifically. Just another example of your hyperbolic dichotomous thinking. As I’ve written before, this website is scientific, not religious. You really keep making a fool of yourself.

Note. at the end is an excellent short explanation of science vs anything else.

Indie Rebel
says:
December 3, 2021 at 11:03 pm
Orac HATES any form of holistic natural healing, and any form of mysticism/spirituality. I mean HATES. I didn’t know anything about Dr. Oz before reading this article, since I don’t have a TV. I didn’t see anything here to make me hate him, or to think he’s a quack. Some people think it’s better to prevent chronic diseases with natural remedies and nutrition, rather than wait until you need surgery and toxic drugs. Wonder why Orac sees that as villainous quackery.
And his wife practices reiki, oh the horror! How the heck does Orac know if reiki works for some people or not? Just because it isn’t approved by the FDA and CDC, and the big drug companies haven’t spent millions researching it?
No, Orac, maintaining health doesn’t have to involve toxic drugs or surgery. Sometimes they are needed, but disease can often be prevented. And no, mysticism and spirituality are not stupid, just because you don’t happen to have any spiritual beliefs. You have a right to your worldview, but you don’t have a right to trash anyone who sees things differently. I doubt you have ever for one second tried to understand eastern mysticism. Have you?

Indie Rebel
says:
December 4, 2021 at 9:22 am
Oh yes, I know, one little experiment negated all the millions of experiences people had with all forms of energy healing. Are you aware that medical research doesn’t work that way?

Indie Rebel
says:
December 5, 2021 at 8:42 pm
Who said you can learn all about reiki in a weekend. And even if you could, what has that got to do with anything. I have NO opinion on Dr. Oz, and he might be a scammer for all I know. But the fact that he agrees with some alternative medicine ideas in no way invalidates his medical expertise. Lots of medical professionals have some alternative medicine beliefs. It’s only absolutists like this blog’s author who are crazed with hatred of anything that disagrees with atheism/materialism/naturalism.
(And calling yourselves naturalists makes no sense at all. We all believe in nature.)

Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH
says:
December 9, 2021 at 12:29 pm
@ Indie Rebel
You criticize Darwin’s Theory of Evolution; but don’t explain and back up with anything other than your opinion. If you notice, most of my comments include clear explanations as well as detailed references.
You claim no one has actually researched Reiki. Wrong. In fact the U.S. Government has an Institute that funds such research, “The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Medicine” at: https://www.nccih.nih.gov
Congress established it in 1998. Total funding probably $2 billion dollars or more over the years. See Wikipedia. National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health AND click on at Centers page “About NCCIH”
And click on middle left Health Topic A-Z, R, then Reiki:
“Reiki is a complementary health approach in which practitioners place their hands lightly on or just above a person, with the goal of directing energy to help facilitate the person’s own healing response. It’s based on an Eastern belief in an energy that supports the body’s innate or natural healing abilities.
Bottom Line
Reiki hasn’t been clearly shown to be effective for any health-related purpose. It has been studied for a variety of conditions, including pain, anxiety, and depression, but most of the research has not been of high quality, and the results have been inconsistent. There’s no scientific evidence supporting the existence of the energy field thought to play a role in Reiki.

Safety
Reiki hasn’t been shown to have any harmful effects.”
And you can find ALL the papers on Reiki on PubMed, the National Academy of Medicine’s online database.
I just typed in word “Reiki” and got 3,251 results. Of course, some editorials, some reviews, some anecdotal; but some placebo-controlled studies; but none measures “existence of energy field”
You can also type: Reiki AND placebo and get 196 results.
You really should read Carl Sagan’s “The Demon Haunted World.” He starts out with an anecdote where someone contacts university that he has seen a dragon in his garage. University sends team that sets up equipment, e.g., infra-red cameras, etc. but find NO dragon. Does this prove dragon doesn’t exist? Well, maybe the person reporting it has a genetic mutation that allow him to see things not registered by equipment or human eye. Or, perhaps the dragon doesn’t want to be seen by others and simply avoids coming while university monitoring. Or . . .? However, you might wish to believe in existence of dragon; but at some point science wins out for the vast majority of open-minded, intelligent people. Science isn’t about absolutes; but gives very high probabilities when based on cumulative research.

On Science:

“Western science arose, gradually evolved, and became self-consciously dissociated from religion and other supernaturalistic perspectives. Science became a peculiar epistemology arising out of a distinct philosophy about the acquisition and manipulation of knowledge. Enlightenment writers saw science as an endeavor emanating from man’s rational mind, unfettered by superstition or blind emotion.

Today, modern science comprises those ways of knowing and understanding that theoretically exclude the supernatural and the mystical; that is, it is based fundamentally on empirical knowledge, independently and objectively acquired through normal human sensory faculties or mechanical techniques. It is guided by a body of concepts, formal procedures, specific rules, methodologies, and perspectives that carry the presumption of objectivity and neutrality. We are conditioned to view it as a separate sphere of culture and its findings as products of strict empiricism and rigid procedures.”

@Aarno Syvänen

“Check Orac’s funding, he has spoken multiple times about writing a grant proposal to NIH”

Well yes, that is the point. Corruption involving the drug industry and NIH, NIAID, CDC, FDA, etc., is very well known.

I don’t know if Orac consciously intends to promote the drug industry. But he depends on their corrupt alliance with government research funding agencies, and therefore has at least subconscious motivations to push their drugs.

@ Indie Rebel

You write: “I don’t know if Orac consciously intends to promote the drug industry. But he depends on their corrupt alliance with government research funding agencies, and therefore has at least subconscious motivations to push their drugs.”

Really? And what are your subconscious motivations? Oh, of course, unlike other people, you don’t have any. Everything you write is based on “well thought thru” conscious effort. YOU ARE DELUSIONAL, DISHONEST, AND FULL OF SHIT

By the way, I suggest you go to PubMed and do search: David Gorski. How many of his peer-reviewed published papers are promoting drugs????

So, you claim that anyone who gets money from Pharma (grant or by being an employee) is corrupt. And that anyone who gets money from the government is corrupt. And something tells me you don’t approve of grants from the Gates foundation either.

So where the heck is anyone supposed to get money to do research? Win the lottery? Beg the Koch brothers? Isis?

@Denice Walter

They TRY to censor everything that does not agree with their official narrative. Orac expresses that desire in this article. Hey but censorship is HARD now days! You would need vast armies constantly monitoring all social media, including comment sections of blogs. They use robots, but robots are just too stupid.

I have put a lot of effort into searching out dissenting opinions. And, ironically, I found out about RFK Jr.’s book at this blog.

The censorship project is doomed, fortunately.

And by the way, why do you think RFK Jr.’s book is so popular? Because people are dopes? Or because he is saying things about Fauci-Gates and their corrupt foundation and agencies and drug industry that need to be said? That many of us already suspected, and that should be brought into the open.

RFK jr’s book is popular because he says things that a particular audience wants to hear
— some believe that vaccines and/ or meds are unsafe or go against Nature
— some mistrust the government or any large institutions
— some are generic contrarians opposing the most widely held views on any subject
— some enjoy being a “select few”, not the average

Kennedy’s appeal is based upon his family name and his past history of fighting corporate interests about pollution, cultivating an image of a bold, crusading lawyer protecting the ‘little person’. Some of which may probably be true because of his work on rivers.

Muckaking can be legitimate or largely trumped up to incite outrage amongst followers and burnish one’s credentials. Orac and commenters here show how his work on Fauci ( or earlier work on Thompson, Simpsonwood etc) are not to be believed.

If you accept conspiracies about vaccines as if they were true, you have to account for:
— how do you keep participants from coming forward with their information?
— how do you explain that research from other countries, companies and institutions all over the world basically show the same? Is the whole world corrupt? If so, why would they stop at vaccines? They might do the same with other issues in science if they were to pad their bottom line,

And by the way, why do you think RFK Jr.’s book is so popular? Because people are dopes?

Well, 74 million Americans voted for Trump. At least some of them are literate. That’s a pretty good potential customer base.

@ Indie Rebel

You write: “I have put a lot of effort into searching out dissenting opinions. And, ironically, I found out about RFK Jr.’s book at this blog. The censorship project is doomed, fortunately.
And by the way, why do you think RFK Jr.’s book is so popular? Because people are dopes? Or because he is saying things about Fauci-Gates and their corrupt foundation and agencies and drug industry that need to be said? That many of us already suspected, and that should be brought into the open.”

First, RFKs book was listed for months on the New York Times best seller list. It was also listed on Amazon.com Multiple blogs listed it and articles in many local newspapers discussed it. Any moron would have been aware of it. As for Fauci-Gates, I have refuted this over and over and so have many others. YOU ARE DISHONEST AND FULL OF SHIT. And I have refuted your lies about censorship, yep, some attempts; but as I wrote above, lots of articles in peer-reviewed journals about vaccine safety, and a number deal with, for instance, myocarditis with covid vaccines. Tons of websites. How the hell do you explain so many people refusing vaccinations? Because of multiple websites and social media and even newspaper articles and OpEd and Fox News (no one has censored them) and other right-wing media. And, yep, some attempts of censorship well-intentioned because refusing vaccinations lead to already overworked hospital workers, deaths, long covid, infecting third parties, etc. and problem is that those who get their info from blogs are NOT open to scientific explanations. In fact, just as you claim that overwhelming majority of vaccine experts, not just in U.S.; but around the world, are in the pockets of Big Pharma. That’s right, epidemiologists, public health workers, etc. in Sweden, for instance, don’t give a shit about their populations. So, those who refuse vaccines believe this. YOU ARE SICK

As for why RFKs book is popular? Why do so many Americans believe in QAnon? Why do so many Americans arm themselves to the teeth, express willingness and sometimes carry out violent acts to protect white supremacy? See PBS “American Insurrection” Why do well-done surveys find that majority, 70% or more, of Americans are basically science illiterate, lack critical thinking skills, etc.

And you are obviously among them. Just above is my comment showing just how dishonest you are. You claimed no funding of research on alternative medicines and mentioned Reiki and energy from Reiki. I demolished this and you ignore. In other words, nothing will change your mind, regardless of how strongly based in science. YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!

@JustaTech

“So, you claim that anyone who gets money from Pharma (grant or by being an employee) is corrupt. And that anyone who gets money from the government is corrupt. And something tells me you don’t approve of grants from the Gates foundation either.”

It is well known that the system has become very corrupt. You should read something about it, but you won’t.

The Gates foundation is extremely corrupt, and so is Fauci, who now partners with Gates. The WHO, NIH, CDC, FDA, NIAID, etc., all are beholden to the drug companies.

The idea of having complete faith in this system is ridiculous.

Good to know you always want the last word and extend it in your name. Do you not know about threads?

Nothing is well known just because you say it is well known.

No one here is a naive as you. Good that we get a mild rhetoric work out though.

Hope you have a good English professor to help you out of all you ditches.

You really are a funny punching bag. Sad I’m not a violence promoter.

It is well known you make us all laugh with your dufus and unsubstantiated claims!

You just don’t know a thing — or how to have fun. You are boring and no one but a few people care about what you say because it is so hard to follow or is generally incomprehensible.

Have fun sometime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-WJm1y7Ij8

“The WHO, NIH, CDC, FDA, NIAID, etc., all are beholden to the drug companies.”

Don’t forget DARPA, NIGC, RUS and especially the TVA. The TVA is the worst.

They’re all in it together, and they monitor the Respectful Insolence comment section rigorously.

Be vewy, vewy careful.

“It is well known that the system has become very corrupt. You should read something about it, but you won’t”

It’s well known that water, draining down a plughole, spins the opposite ways in the northern and southern hemispheres.

Evidence for corruption? Going to need some very well researched and well sourced information for that.

And great job not answering the question: where should researchers get the money if not from the government, non-profits or industry?

(And pardon my while I laugh and laugh at the idea that Big Pharma gives a tinker’s damn about toilets in the developing world. You know, the Gate’s Foundation’s big thing: safe pooping.)

@ Indie Rebel

You write: “The idea of having complete faith in this system is ridiculous.” Just one more example of your paranoid world of polar opposites. No one I know has “complete faith” in the system; but neither do they see it as even close to being as completely corrupt as you do. So, once again, where do you get your “certain” knowledge from? Psychic or psychotic???

YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT

“There’s a reason why I’ve long refused to ‘debate’ people like Mr. Kirsch. It’s like the proverbial wrestling with a pig. You get very dirty and the pig loves it.”

The other reason is that you’d lose.

Actually Mr Kirsch would lie, like saying that vaccines are not tested against placebo. To prove that this is a lie, you must do a Google Scholar search, Would audience wait ?
Secondly he would make a misleading quotation. Now entire paper must be presented. Audience would drop to zero,

You know when people used to settle things with a duel? Do you think the winner was the one in the right? Or the best duellist?

Don’t forget, to an anti-vaxxer, contrary evidence is always a lie paid for by Big Pharma, Bill Gates and the New World Order. It wouldn’t be a scientific debate involving evidence and the quality of studies and analysis, it would be a smorgasbord of accusations and factoids with the winner being determined by whoever the audience thought had the upper hand. If it’s not a scientific debate, between scientists, then it’s worthless theatre.

I’ve read Kirsch’s ramblings and Orac’s article in response.

Kirsch lost the debate, and it wasn’t remotely close.

@Denice Walter

As long as you refuse to read the book, or anything else that criticizes the Fauci-Gates vaccine empire, you won’t know. You don’t want to know. Some conspiracy theories contain some truth. You think powerful people are all angelic?

No people are “angelic”. That’s why we have laws, courts and governmental oversight.

Because one part of a CT is true ( pharma companies pursue the almighty dollar/ pound/ euro any way they can) doesn’t mean that the CTs are entirely true.

And I have no need to read the book because I have heard Kennedy’s synopsis in an hour long interview ( PRN), more details at his CHD website and heard it discussed here as well. I know the story of AZT because of my own work with the hiv/ aids community.

Youi yourself cited some ridiculous parts, so general content is clear.
What is Fauci Gates vaccine empire ?
Fauci is director of NIAID, Gates donates vaccines.
Pharma stockholders are public knowledge, so are Gates & Fauci stockholdings.
CDC is a separate agency ACIP gives immunisation advice. Neither Fauci or Gates are ,members.
FDA is a separate agency, too.

@ Indie Rebel

You write: “As long as you refuse to read the book, or anything else that criticizes the Fauci-Gates vaccine empire, you won’t know. You don’t want to know. Some conspiracy theories contain some truth. You think powerful people are all angelic?”

First, just one more example of your moronic extremes. Nope, nobody I know thinks “powerful people are angelic.” And you forget that I read RFKs book, carefully, even found and downloaded almost 600 of the references he gave. And in a previous exchange refuted many things in his book and all of your stupid claims, based on the book. Including that HIV not cause of AIDS and your probably intentional misrepresentation of what Robert Gallo wrote, that is HHV6 not cause of AIDS; but if infected with HIV an accelerator. I also destroyed claims by RFK based on “documentary” “Guinea Pig Kids”. I pointed out that the vast majority of RFKs reference are either early papers, ignoring masses of later papers, taking quotes out of context, or referring to second hand articles and books with authors known for insane conspiracy theories, even QAnon, promoters of alternative medicines, etc and RFK gives no indication in his book he even bothered to check out what they wrote, e.g., other independent credible sources or even checking out their reference lists. Below is just one of my comments. You can find our complete exchange at: RFK Jr. then vs. RFK Jr. now: Still fiercely antivaccine after all these years
https://respectfulinsolence.com/2021/12/15/rfk-jr-then-vs-rfk-jr-now-still-antivaccine-but-turned-up-to-11/

The fact that you base all or most of your position on RFKs book, including using his hyperbolic extremist dichotomous language and that, despite what I and others have written, just continue with same extremist comments, proves that either you are mentally disturbed and/or intellectually dishonest and/or just plain stupid. Doesn’t matter because no one with an IQ above an amoeba and an open mind believes anything you write. YOU JUST KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF. And if you like RFKs book, I can give you a list of books on numerous subjects that are completely biased, intellectually dishonest, and just plain wrong. But if they confirm or fit your biases, your suffering from oppositional disorder of childhood, I’m sure you will eat them up.

Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH
says:
December 21, 2021 at 9:13 pm
@ Indie Rebel
I read RFKs book “The Real Anthony Fauci” and it is full of dishonest examples; but there is an old saying: Even a broken clock gets the time right twice daily,” so, yep, RFK managed to find some valid examples. Let’s start with his depiction of HIV. He says it doesn’t meet Koch’s four points. Absolutely true; but he ignores that Koch wrote that a number of microbes didn’t fit his four points, including tuberculosis. And viruses required an entirely new set of criteria. So, Kennedy is wrong. He devotes a good part of book to claiming HIV not a dangerous virus, that AIDS represents a number of different causes. He also attacks AZT and other retrovirals for being responsible for most AIDS deaths; but towards the end of the book when he is attacking pharmaceutical companies for their patents, he then says many people in South Africa are dying from AIDS because the patents make the drugs too expensive for them. I can give several more examples of him contradicting himself. However, he ignores ALL the studies up to today that, both from electron microscopy, genetic sequencing, etc that overwhelming explain how HIV, a retrovirus, enters the human genome intact, breaks out and how it destroys CD 4 cells, the T-cells responsible for coordinating the adaptive and, to some extent, innate immune systems response to an invader. He relies mainly on earlier, cherry-picked studies. He writes that the human genome is loaded with fragments of ancient virus, which is true; but that doesn’t refute that new intact viruses can and have been shown to integrate into our genomes. And, just one example, he cites Christine Maggiore numerous times. Well, I met her twice, even sat down to a cup of coffee with her and she gave me a free copy of her book. She was HIV positive and clearly didn’t believe it was dangerous. When she became pregnant, her doctors tried to get her on antiretrovirals; but she refused. The infant was born HIV positive and died of AIDs at 3 years of age. A couple of years later she was diagnosed with pneumocystis pneumonia. The doctors tried to get her on anti-retrovirals, she refused, and died at 51 years of age. She was a very nice person. I liked her; but she was wrong. In fact, a number of people RFK cites in his book, HIV/AIDS deniers died of AIDS. And he includes in his references a book that denies the germ theory. Yikes! He also devotes considerable time to claiming the hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin are excellent at treating Covid and even preventing it. Orac, a PhD in immunology, has written several of his papers with lots of references debunking this. And he includes the “low” death rates from Covid in India and Africa which I debunked above with several well-done studies. For instance, in many third world nations deaths in rural villages and farms are NOT reported, not even required, etc. And he claims Fauci and others reject healthy diets and exercise. Wrong! Fauci and others do encourage healthy diets and exercise; but regardless of how healthy someone is, if a new microbe attacks, it can kill them or, at least make them very sick. Why? Because ones immune system doesn’t recognize it and it takes time to rev up. Best diet, best exercise, still immune system has to recognize a microbe and even among the healthiest of us, takes 10 – 14 days for immune system to rev up and that may be too late.
In any case, I could write a detailed review of his book, focus on half dozen of his main points and debunk them with science and lots of references. But, as I’ve pointed out numerous times, you have not indicated the least knowledge of immunology, microbiology, or epidemiology, so you just believe what you choose to believe, so, not surprising you believe RFK.
If it wasn’t for people actually suffering because of beliefs like yours, Gregs, and Kay West, you would be quite amusing; but you aren’t.
Oh, one last point. Kennedy writes how his article on Thimerosal and Autism was taken down. But he doesn’t mention why. Several gross errors, including giving literally 10 times the actual amount of thimerosal in any vaccine, etc. And when it was taken down, he simply posted it on his website without any changes. Maybe he finally has made some changes; but I doubt it.

Sceptics need to be aware of a source’s past history when citing them. Orac has spent long years ( and posts) explicating just why RFK jr is not trustworthy as a reporter on scientific matters; the fact that his basic formal education is not in life science shouldn’t be an automatic reason to reject him.
He has been outlandishly wrong about vaccines previously and has been cited as an hiv/ aids denialist. That tells us much.

As a personal example, I have followed a certain alt med proselytiser for over 20 years, hearing many wild and wonderful claims- most of which I firmly doubt- but why do I doubt?
— first of all, he contradicts most of what I studied formally in bio and psychology – and not just by shades of difference but by direct opposition and by magnitudes. How likely is it that one person can correct all of the “errors” implicit in medicine for the past century?
— his formal education is rather suspect: there are no standard degrees from normal universities but a “career school”, “alternate pathways to a degree” and a “correspondence school”. I certainly didn’t consider attending such places because I was accepted at well known, large universities, in more than one country, that were very selective – in short, I didn’t have to go to awful schools because no one else wanted me as a student.
— he doesn’t use the standard method of research ( well-controlled studies/ statistics, published in high impact journals ) but relies upon testimonials, low level and alternative journals and explanation by self-made videos.
— he portrays himself as an intellectual but when he discusses material in diverse areas ( art, literature, history), he gets a startling amount of basic facts” wrong. He uses words incorrectly, botches common expressions/ idioms/ grammar and shows frequent inability to pronounce names/ places in European languages ( including English). A student who has been to university – especially for a doctorate- in his native country and in his age cohort *usually has had to have had a foreign language as well as several courses in basic English/ writing and general liberal studies ( art, history, social science, general science, literature etc)
— he has accepted and publicised many outre theories and fantasy-based positions in medicine, psychology as well as political and social conspiracy theories. So anti-vax, hiv/aids denialism, homeopathy, energy healing, 911 truth and alternative histories all cluster together. He hosts other true believers and helps them to advance their theories.
–He thinks that RFK jr is just dandy.

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