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Substack: The new wretched hive of scum and quackery

With social media companies like Twitter and Facebook/Meta deplatforming those spreading misinformation, COVID-19 quacks, antivaxxers, and conspiracy theorists are flocking to Substack, where they can monetize their misinformation.

Over the nearly two years of the COVID-19 pandemic, we’ve been writing a lot about social media, particularly Facebook (excuse me, “Meta”), Twitter, YouTube, and Instagram (and now Tik Tok), as amplifiers of antivaccine misinformation. Part of the reason is that the pandemic finally—finally!—appears to have awakened public health authorities and government officials to how dangerous antivaccine misinformation and disinformation can be, after years and years of attempts by bloggers, as well as a relatively small number of academics, journalists, and health care professionals, to combat it without much support. As I said last week, everything old is new again, and, belated cries of, “Who could ever have seen this coming?” aside (the answer is: everyone who’s been paying attention), it’s important to assess the situation now, however we might have gotten here. This brings me to Substack. Remember how I used to refer to a certain antivaccine blog as a “wretched hive of scum and quackery” in homage to a line from Star Wars? Although there’s a lot of good writing on Substack, a byproduct of its freewheeling design and—shall we say?—lax attitude towards content guidelines, Substack has now become the new wretched hive of scum and quackery, something that is not entirely counterbalanced by the quality writing that’s there.

Say what you will about the halting and often scattershot efforts of social media companies to deal with the tsunami of misinformation about COVID-19 and vaccines that their platforms helped to spread, both through their algorithms that amplify and promote strong emotions (as in conflict and controversy) and their not-so-benign neglect of the problem of slowing the spread of dangerous misinformation and conspiracy theories on their platforms borne of the naïve tech bro belief that the answer to bad speech is more good speech, social media companies have at least finally tried to do something about the problem of misinformation on their platforms. I guess it took a deadly global pandemic whose resolution is being hampered by the disinformation spread on their platforms to finally shake them out of their complacency somewhat and actually deplatform some of the most egregious sources of misinformation. Of course, quackery abhors a vacuum, and grifters gonna grift (and keep grifting), which is likely why so many of them have now ended up on other platforms with—shall we say?—even less “stringent” rules regarding misinformation.

You might wonder what provoked me to write about this. The answer is simple and dates back to one week ago, when I encountered this post by über-quack Joe Mercola, a quack tycoon whose empire of online misinformation has, since the late 1990s, allowed him to amass a net worth north of $100 million, leading me to refer to him as a “quack tycoon.” That’s when he announced that his “Censored Library” would be available on Substack, for (of course) a fee:

I’m beyond excited to finally announce you now have a second option. My team and I have found a way to bring back my previously deleted articles in a liability protected format under the Censored Library. It is hosted by Substack, which is a major free speech platform that many censored journalists are using. My newsletter will remain free, as it has always been, and after 48 hours, each article will be transferred to and archived in the Censored Library on Substack.

The reason I chose a paid membership platform on Substack is because it will protect all of my content from censorship under a private membership agreement. All of the content is completely searchable, and does not use Google. For just $5 a month, or the discounted annual rate of $50 per year, you will have access to all of my articles, all the time, even after they’ve been deleted from Mercola.com.

We have already started the process of transferring our entire archive over to the Substack library, but there are nearly 25 years of content so it will be a lengthy process.

This is, of course, one of the most brilliant pieces of grift that I’ve ever seen from a quack. Remember, the reason that these articles are only available for 48 hours on Mercola’s own website is because last summer Mercola himself chose to make them “ephemeral”, after a New York Times article in July about him and his empire of health disinformation. Why? Not long after publication of that NYT report, which prominently featured Mercola’s inclusion in the Center for Countering Digital Hate’s (CCDH’s) list of the “Disinformation Dozen”, Mercola wrote an article titled “Why I Am Deleting All Content After 48 Hours“, explaining:

These will be removed to appease the individuals in power who have an arsenal of overwhelming tools at their disposal, and are actively engaged in using them. COVID-19 has activated and authorized emergency powers that have weakened our constitutional rights. Sadly, cyberwarfare and authoritarian forces are beyond our abilities to withstand, and this is now our only way forward.

Over 15,000 articles full of vital information that has helped tens of millions across the world take control of their health, will be removed. There was a time when people could debate and respect each other freely. That time is now gone. I believe laws are best applied like medicine – locally and specifically.

Local food, local democracy – our local community strength is the best way to achieve peace moving forward, and to stop authoritarian technocracy. I also believe we are at our strongest when we can care and maintain respect for each other. This is how we can make our most important decisions in life.

Again I will still be writing my daily articles that I started 25 years ago BUT they will only be available for 48 hours before they are removed. In this way I hope to continue my mission to help you take control of your health – but it’s up to you to download, share and repost this content. I will not be enforcing my copyright on this information so that you may freely share it.

In addition to making all his content “ephemeral”, Mercola has also apparently changed the robots.txt file for his website to exclude all his articles from being archived by the Wayback Machine over at the Internet Archive, as evidenced by the message I get every time I enter a link to an old Mercola article into the Wayback Machine. At the time I couldn’t help but gasp at the audacity of it all. (Also, it never ceases to amuse me how an incredibly rich man who had built an online empire to sell his supplements and other quackery can without a hint of self-awareness portray himself as a poor, downtrodden, “persecuted” individual in this way, and his marks will eat it up.) At first, I thought that this was nothing more than a temporary ploy to “create scarcity” and drive up the buzz and short-term sharing of his content. I didn’t appreciate the long-term game, which was to transition all of his old material to a paid archive, something that Substack has facilitated.

What also caught my attention was Mercola’s reference to Substack as a “major free speech platform that many censored journalists are using,” a phrase that sent up so many red flags. That’s what made me decide to take a look at Substack.

Where the quacks go now?

Substack is a company that also reminds me how “everything old is new again,” because in essence Substack is a blogging platform. (How 2004, which is when I started my personal blog, lo, those many years ago!) Billing itself as “the home for great writing” and the “simplest way to start a subscription publication, and the best place to grow it“, to me Substack is, in essence, the new Blogger or free WordPress, with an option to monetize one’s posts through a subscription model, with Substack getting a 10% cut of the proceeds. To show you even more how everything old is new again, the company also provides the materials to notify users of new content by, yes, email. There are even feuds between Substack authors, just like what I remember from back in the day at ScienceBlogs. Truly, I’m getting very “mid-2000s” vibes from the whole thing.

Substack was founded in 2017. Pointing out how social media and online advertising had decimated traditional print media sources for writers, the founders of Substack proclaimed:

We are developing an all-in-one service to let writers get paid by reaching audiences that value them. Our tools will include easy-to-use editing software that can handle the simultaneous publication of stories and newsletters; a payments solution that makes subscriptions intuitive and manageable for both publisher and reader; sharing features that allow stories to find large audiences outside the paywalls; and design templates so that publishers can create beautiful reading experiences. We make money only when our publishers make money, taking a small cut of subscription revenue or charging recurring fees based on earnings thresholds.

As I said, this is nothing more than Blogger with a subscription model that calls blog posts “newsletters”. In fact, aesthetically, I find Substack to be less compelling than Blogger was in that at least with Blogspot blogs you could radically change the templates and come up with a really good looking blog if you had the skills and wanted to make the effort. There’s a depressing sameness about all the Substack newsletters that I’ve encountered, as if no one bothers (or is able to) alter the basic dull template. That being said, to me there’s nothing inherently wrong with the concept of Substack’s business model (although, admittedly, not everyone agrees, to the point where I will be looking into this issue more in order to make sure I didn’t come to a premature judgment), which is to provide a platform that is easy for bloggers to use and, if they so desire, try to monetize their work through a subscription model, from which Substack apparently takes what seems to be a reasonable cut. Generally, most newsletters that I’ve perused are a mix of free and “paid” content that requires a subscription.

Truth be told, I have from time to time considered moving my personal blog over to Substack, not because I want to monetize it, but because I’m tired of spending over $1,000 a year to maintain it and of having to deal with the problem every time there’s a technical glitch. (I am most assuredly not skilled enough for this.)

Also in fairness, I will say that there are some great blogs—excuse me, newsletters—on Substack. For example, historian Timothy Snyder’s Thinking About… is wonderful (also scary, given his expertise on the history of authoritarian and totalitarian regimes and his observations on US politics now), while John Skylar’s COVID Transmissions is a go-to source for information about COVID-19 that I’ve cited before and Emily Oster’s excellent blog on evidence-based parenting are also on Substack. I could go on and on. My point is not that Substack doesn’t have some excellent content. Rather, it’s that Substack appears to the go-to platform of choice deplatformed quacks and antivaxxers, like Joe Mercola. Indeed, his Dr. Mercola’s Censored Library is just the most recent example.

Who’s on Substack now?

As I wrote this post, I decided to do a little experiment and search Substack’s main page for blogs newsletters about COVID-19, vaccines, and other health issues. Let’s start with COVID-19. Does anyone want to guess which Substack newsletter came up #1 in the search result for the term “COVID-19” yesterday? Come on, take a guess! No? You’d be correct that it was a COVID-19-denying antimask newsletter. In fact, it was Justin Hart’s Rational Ground, which, in a truly Orwellian twist, bills itself as the “answer to the flood of chaotic COVID-19 misinformation”, even as it spews COVID-19 misinformation and conspiracy theories. You might remember that I myself mentioned him last June as he promoted “casedemic” conspiracy theories (refuted over a year ago here) about COVID-19:

I also mentioned how Tracy Beth Høeg and the other co-authors of a dumpster diving VAERS preprint about myocarditis after COVID-19 vaccination had included one of Rational Ground’s main members, Josh Stevenson, as one of their coauthors, pointing out its many articles railing about “lockdowns” and masks and how it paints an entirely dire picture of any sort of public health intervention to slow the spread of COVID-19, particularly mask mandates, for which they have an entire page full of articles opposing masks, falsely claiming that masks don’t have any effect on the spread of COVID-19, and a whole lot of other misinformation about COVID-19, ranging from semi-responsible to pure denialist. Unsurprisingly, Rational Ground enthusiastically endorsed the Great Barrington Declaration, the eugenics-adjacent proposal published in October 2020 that advocated, in essence, a “let ‘er rip” strategy towards COVID-19 in the “healthy” general population while advocating “focused protection” for the vulnerable. (Never mind that it’s impossible to protect the vulnerable if a respiratory virus is spreading freely through the population.)

Before I move on to other searches, let’s look at the top 10 results of searches of Substack for “COVID-19“ from several days ago:

  1. Rational Ground by Justin Hart. A COVID-19 misinformation newsletter. (Subscription: $7/month.)
  2. The COVID Digest by Amber Schmidtke. This is actually a good newsletter with generally reliable, science-based discussions. (Subscription: $7/month.)
  3. Kanekoa’s Newsletter. Let’s just say that the avatar for this newsletter includes red glowing crypto eyes. Yes, it’s a misinformation site. Don’t believe me? Whoever this guy is, he really, really likes Dr. Robert Malone, the “inventor of mRNA vaccines” conspiracy crank. (Subscription: $5/month.)
  4. Rapport Hebdomadaire COVID-19. This is a French newsletter by Diana Alessandro, a vaccinologist at a company called Infovac that seems, given my limited remaining ability to read and write French, fairly reasonable. (Free.)
  5. Prometheus Shrugged. The name suggests what this newsletter is, and, yes, it’s COVID-19 misinformation, in particular the most out-there “lab leak” conspiracy theories. (Subscription: $5/month.)
  6. COVID-19 Policy Update by John Bailey. This looks like a fairly straightforward news aggregator newsletter that more or less serves as a link/quote list from recent news stories and op-eds about COVID-19. (Free.)
  7. COVID Transmissions by John Skylar. One of the good eggs, very much worth following. (Free.)
  8. RESCUE with Michael Capuzzo. Can you say “ivermectin”? Sure, I knew you could. (Subscription: $7/month.)
  9. COVID-19 Northland. This looks like another fairly straight news aggregating site, this time from New Zealand. (Subscription: $5/month.)
  10. Harry Saag’s COVID-19 updates. Dr. Harry Saag is CEO and Co-Founder of Roster Health and Clinical Assistant Professor of Medicine at NYU Langone Health. Most of his blog appears to be about sociological aspects of the pandemic, but he isn’t exactly what I’d call prolific, publishing only a few times a year. (Free.)

So basically, four out of the top ten results for COVID-19 are what can most kindly be described as newsletters spreading COVID-19 misinformation and conspiracy theories.

Going beyond the top ten, there’s the FLCCC Alliance Community Substack. Regular readers will know that FLCCC (Frontline COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance) is a group of “COVID-19 contrarian” doctors (i.e., COVID quacks) dedicated to promoting “early treatment” in the form of ivermectin, a repurposed drug that does not work against COVID-19, the best evidence for which is highly dubious or even fraudulent, all supplemented with conspiracy theories about how a “cure” is being “suppressed”. There’s also Dr. Paul Alexander’s Substack, which is chock full of antivaccine conspiracy mongering, including references to the Tuskegee syphilis experiment and other favorite antivax talking points. You might recall that Alexander was for a time advisor to Health and Human Services assistant secretary for public affairs Michael Caputo under the Trump administration who made the news a year ago because of news reports publishing emails of his from the July 2020 saying that we “want them infected” (referring to “infants, kids, teens, young people, young adults, middle aged with no conditions”) to “use them to develop herd” immunity. Yes, he was promoting a “natural herd immunity” approach to the pandemic. (How’d that work out?) Then there’s Laura Dodsworth, who wrote a COVID-19 minimizing book State of Fear and whose Substack even buys into the “mass formation hysteria” nonsense recently promoted by “inventor of mRNA vaccines” Dr. Robert Malone.

Speaking of Dr. Malone, the results are even worse if you search for “vaccines.” Here are the top ten results:

  1. Who is Robert Malone. This is the newsletter of Dr. Robert Malone, who has misleadingly proclaimed himself “inventor of mRNA vaccines” even as he’s gone full antivaccine conspiracy crank. Let’s just say that this is not an auspicious newsletter to show up as number one. (Subscription $5/month.)
  2. Steve Kirsch’s Newsletter. Steve Kirsch is a tech entrepreneur who started out reasonable, promoting repurposed drugs for COVID-19, but somehow fell deep into the conspiracy well, to the point where he embraced hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin and became fully antivaccine. Most recently, he’s been promoting the false claimbased on dumpster diving in VAERS, that COVID-19 vaccines have killed far more people than they save, hundreds of thousands of people in the year since the vaccines were first distributed. (Subscription $5/month.)
  3. Alexander COVID News epidemiologist evidence based medicine. This is Paul Alexander’s Substack (see above) and the Substack with the most incomprehensible name that I’ve yet seen. (Subscription $5/month.)
  4. Kids, Covid, and Covid Vaccines. This is a Substack by someone using the ‘nym Darby Shaw (a character from a John Grisham novel, no less!), who bills herself as a “Child Safety Advocate” who is using a “pen name because our government and media are now 100 percent corrupt”. The content of the Substack is exactly what you would expect from that introduction. (Free.)
  5. VaxCalc Insider. This sounded like a blast from the past! Or at least it reminds me of a blast from the past, namely the totally deceptive “Vaccine Ingredient Calculator” maintained by Barbara Loe Fisher’s antivaccine group National Vaccine Information Center. It doesn’t appear to be maintained by NVIC, but its rhetoric about being a “modern day Star Wars Rebel Alliance fighting the greatest threat to freedom today: tyrannical vaccine stormtroopers who will stop at nothing until they vaccinate everybody from cradle to grave” and viewing “vaccine-hesitancy as a sign of intelligent, courageous decision-making in the face of tremendous pressure to ‘just do what you’re told’” told me everything I needed to know even before I started perusing the newsletters. (Subscription $7/month.)
  6. Voice for Science and Solidarity by Geert Vanden Bossche. We’ve written about Geert Vanden Bossche before. Let’s just say that he updates a conspiracy theory by Andrew Wakefield to proclaim falsely that vaccinating against COVID-19 will result in mass death and destruction and is currently begging the World Health Organization not to vaccinate against Omicron. He’s even promoting a different COVID-19 vaccine, just as Wakefield was promoting his own measles vaccine when he started claiming that the MMR vaccine causes autism. (Free.)
  7. Vinu’s Newsletter. This one is a real blast from the past! Does anyone remember Vinu Arumugham? He was a commenter here years ago, and one of the more bizarre ones at that. Now has one of the top ten “vaccine” Substacks! That ought to tell you all you need to know about Substack and vaccines. These days he’s claiming that “dirty regular vaccines turned a harmless virus into a killer“. (He’s referring to Tdap and influenza vaccines.) (Free.)
  8. Injecting Freedom. Aaron Siri is a lawyer for Del Bigtree‘s Informed Consent Action Network (ICAN) who has sued over vaccine mandates and represented “vaccine-injured” children. His newsletter is a cornucopia of legal conspiracy theories over COVID-19 vaccines, as you might expect from its title. (Free.)
  9. This Week in COVID. Dr. Siyab Panhwar is cardiologist, and, at #9 in the search results, his newsletter appears to be the first Substack that isn’t outright antivaccine conspiracy mongering—quite the opposite, in fact. Still, that it took until #9 to get to an evidence-based take on vaccines tells you all you need to know about Substack. (Free.)
  10. Rapport Hebdomadaire COVID-19. This one was #4 in the search for COVID-19 newsletters and discussed above. It’s OK. (Free.)

So in the case of this search, eight out of the top ten results are, to put it kindly, not science-based. In fact, they’re some of the most conspiracy-mongering of blogs that I have encountered, full of COVID-19 antivaccine misinformation and disinformation. As before, going beyond the top ten, there are more antivaccine blogs, such as Insurance company employees, another blog by Steve Kirsch, who is truly prolific and here claims to be cataloguing data to demonstrate that COVID-19 vaccines are dangerous, and Lies are Unbekoming, another antivaccine substack, complete with a “Do Not Comply” avatar.

Getting away from just searches, Substack has also become the home to some other notorious COVID-19 conspiracy theorists and misinformation spreaders. These include Alex Berenson’s Unreported Truths. You might recall that Berenson was suspended from Twitter in August for promoting COVID-19 misinformation. However, he just pivoted over to Substack, where he now is on track to earn roughly $700,000 a year from subscriptions. Perusing the site with other terms, I found more COVID-19 misinformation sites, such as Unmasked, which, as its name implies, claims that masks don’t work and rants against vaccine passports while claiming that the public health apparatus is “spreading disinformation”. There’s also Matthew Crawford’s Rounding the Earth. Although we haven’t written about him here on SBM (although one of us really should!), Crawford is a statistician who uses misleading statistics to falsely claim that ivermectin is highly effective against COVID-19 and that the vaccines don’t work/are dangerous.

Why are quacks flocking to Substack?

With Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tik Tok, and the rest trying, as imperfect as their efforts are, to rein in misinformation by deplatforming its spreaders, Substack has become the go-to destination for many of them. One reason is obvious: It’s a chance to monetize misinformation, with Substack profiting as well from its cut. More importantly, aside from banning nudity and erotica, plagiarism, doxxing, impersonation, hate speech, infringement on intellectual property, and “illegal activities” such as spam and phishing, Substack’s content guidelines are very vague on what Substack will and will not permit. True, Substack says it won’t host “harmful” material but does not define what it means by “harmful” that other than saying it includes “material that advocates, threatens, or shows you causing harm to yourself, other people, or animals”.

Over the last few months, people have been noticing how cranks, quacks, and spreaders of political disinformation have been flocking to Substack, with Chris Stokel-Walker of WIRED referring to Substack as a “playground for the deplatformed“, while Kiera Butler, writing for Mother Jones, observes that Substack is “profiting off antimask and antivaccine newsletters“:

There’s one less frequently discussed way in which Substack actually might be endangering democracy: It’s become a conduit for public disinformation during a historic pandemic. Indeed, my search of Substack returned dozens of newsletters that suggested that vaccines and masks were ineffective and dangerous, and that “the media” had exaggerated the harms of COVID-19. Many of the newsletters that I found insisted that the government was suppressing evidence in favor of treatments that scientists have shown to be ineffective, like hydroxychloroquine and Ivermectin. Other Substack newsletters made similar claims about unproven supplements and other fringe remedies.

Just enter the term “COVID” into Substack’s search bar to find a wide variety of newsletters to peruse. Some are by leading epidemiologists and other medical experts offering insights into public health questions in the national conversation. But among those evidence-based offerings are a whole raft of newsletters that make false claims about masks, vaccines, and data.

Nearly three months after Butler’s story, I find that her characterization is still the accurate. She also reminds me that Joe Mercola was on Substack before. He just repurposed his Substack newsletter to be the “Censored Library.” She also notes Substack’s wishy-washy response to criticism:

In response to a request for comment from Mother Jones, a company spokesperson said that though the company has not offered any advances to users who promote misinformation, the company errs “on the side of free press and free expression, even for those we don’t endorse or agree with” and that “being skeptical, controversial, or even wrong are not against our terms of service.”

That sounds remarkably similar to what company spokespeople for Facebook and Twitter used to say, back in the day. I also note that the company has a history of offering advances to some rather dodgy writers, as well as observe that not offering advances to cranks is hardly a good defense of Substack’s profiting off of misinformation. Substack still gets its 10% cut, even if it doesn’t actively entice cranks to its platform with six figure advances. Indeed, arguably Substack is profiting more directly off of misinformation, pseudoscience, and conspiracy theories than Facebook or Twitter ever did, given that it takes a cut of the subscription proceeds from writers promoting such false narratives. In that, Substack, whatever its virtues otherwise, is arguably worse than Facebook and Twitter. No wonder quacks love it.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

142 replies on “Substack: The new wretched hive of scum and quackery”

I remember Vinu…articulate, thoughtful, concerned, persistent, engaged, often cited, entertaining, cheerful, and missed here at RI.

Oh yeah, the guy with all the self-published research papers that were just a word salad of the foot-bone’s-connected-to-the-knee bone reasoning towards whatever conclusion he was reaching for.

Google tells me he’s moved up in the world and is now commenting on FDA sites.

Also used to pretend that his rapid responses on BMJ were peer reviewed articles published on BMJ.

Vinu used to “publish” his thoughts on one of those free article hosting sites before he discovered pay to play journals. Vinu is the poster boy for all of those comments about engineers wading into medical science.

While looking for one of Vinu’s old brainfarts, I came across this: https://jameslyonsweiler.com/2020/10/12/dr-lyons-weiler-if-you-intend-to-reproduce-do-not-fly-the-chemicals-used-to-disinfect-airplanes-decrease-fertility-and-are-epigenetically-teratogenic/

It is not quite Food Babe grade stupidity, but it comes damn close. It is perfect evidence for all of those (on AoA, CHD etc) who think James Lyons-Weiler is the next Barry Marshall. He most definitely is not.

Your definition of “quack” appears to be “person asking questions to which I don’t want the answers”. This is not how scientists think. The evidence either supports you or it doesn’t. If you’re cheerleading the censorship of “misinformation”, there is a strong probability that it doesn’t.

You have clearly been infusing too much chaos. It’s time to cut back. There are support groups that can help you.

He/she/it also apparently isn’t too good with reading comprehension, but then I expect that from cranks and antivaxxers.

I picture a crank’s mind as a rudimentary HTML processor. Key words that match their internal database are colored green, yellow or red, depending on conformance to existing beliefs. Some of the red ones are bold and use retro blink style tags.

Most of the rest of the text is replaced by “…” or the font is altered to smallest and blurred. Citations are usually deleted, but in some cases they are randomly replaced by items from their “approved” database.

Someone with time on their hands could write a browser add-on to offload the work so that the brains of the cranks can be spent on, um, more useful tasks.

Antivaccine activists aren’t asking questions. They are making up answers. To use the example of Vinu, he clearly thinks he knows, he’s not asking. Same for Kirsch.

Everyone has access to the same evidence. It’s a matter of what evidence you decide to trust.

There’s no real possibility of this being censored in the United States. Being forced off YouTube is not censorship. Making $100,000,000 is not censorship.

Everyone has access to the same evidence. It’s a matter of what evidence you decide to trust.

Not really Christine. It’s a matter of how qualified one is to properly read and comprehend, or interpret if you will, the evidence. Failing that, one needs to know who to trust to do that. While I can spot red flags and identify a goodly number of fallacies, I cannot wade through some of the graphs, statistics and such that ORAC included in his posts, but I CAN rely on his conclusions to be scientifically accurate and logically sound.

But maybe that’s what you meant?

“The evidence either supports you or it doesn’t”

….and when it doesn’t, you claim it’s fake. Also without any supporting evidence.

Mirror, mirror, on the wall. Who can’t see themselves at all?

chaosInfusion- you have no need to doubt the meaning of ‘quack’ on this blog since it has been explored from every possible angle over a long time by our host and many commenters and it is not as you interpret. Also there is no particular way that scientists think. There are certain principles adhered to within different scientific disciplines but the variety of thinking is as varied as the humans comprising the communities. Paraphrasing Peter Medawar, they ‘ potentiate their common sense’

I was somewhat surprised not to see Berenson in these lists. Of course, doesn’t mean he’s not still doing harm to others.

It’s rather interesting. One of the articles about Substack explicitly wondered why Berenson didn’t “chart” much higher. His Substack is not on any of the top finds for common searches. It’s almost as though Substack is…embarrassed…by him.

Because I am aware of Snyder’s work AND because I monitor so many altie cesspits, I sometimes despair. Are there significant numbers of deniers of reality both politically and scientifically? Will these fault lines fracture society in a such a way as to make communication impossible? I keep telling my SO that I’d glad that we live/ visit/ are invested in reliably liberal, diverse areas where gun culture is really minimal. I worry more about places that are obviously right leaning or which have a more 50/50 split as well as guns. I am concerned Orac’s state as well as those places that try to rig voting to shut out minorities.

With the growth of social media and their progeny, like SubStack, we read things that sound bizarre- vaccines are worse than the illnesses they prevent- they are “kill shots”. Hospitals kill patients. Elections are rigged. Cities are death traps. Leftists are Nazis, Rightists are patriots.
Looking at different areas’ perverse reactions to vaccines, PH measures and Covid rules can inform us about where their collective hearts lie.

Snyder’s recent Substack entry suggesting that if Republicans succeed in using gerrymandering, voter suppression, and the takeover of state election apparatuses to win the 2022 and 2024 elections without anything close to an actual majority of the votes there will be civil war struck me as too apocalyptic. While I certainly fear that there’s a disturbingly high probability that the US will cease to be a functional democracy on January 20, 2025 and on that date turn into a one party rule pseudodemocracy, I doubt that such an outcome will result in anything like civil conflict and disintegration of the US that Snyder foresees. Rather, I fear that most people will just accept it with the proverbial shrug, and the US will remain one nation, just no longer a real democracy (or even democratic republic, as a certain political persuasion likes to call it).

Orac, I don’t fear an actual physical civil war so much as a continuance of escalating aggressive language, visible social division, oppositionally defiant media and above all, mounting increases in rankling stupidity/ acceptance of unreality across the board. And perhaps a few events that mimic the 6th of January. Crazy protests. Attempts to subvert elections. More wasting of common time and money.

“much as a continuance of escalating aggressive language,”

Both of my sons are adopted, born in South Korea. One lives here in Kalamazoo, the other in Grand Rapids. The younger son is working at a restaurant while he’s in college, and has had more snide racial remarks aimed at him by customers in the past 1.5 years than previously. My older son has had comments aimed at him when he’s been out in GR with his girlfriend. They are both expecting things to get worse.

It’s even worse for a black nephew-in-law and his wife who live in Atlanta.

I think it’s going to get worse regardless of what happens in the coming elections.

The idea that the Trumpists will take over, and that most people will just shrug is more apocalyptic than the sort of “civil war” projected by scholars like Barbara Walter (who Snyder seems to echoing…).

I can’t help but notice that, however you characterized my fear, you didn’t tell me I was wrong, as I half-expected that you might as I wrote the comment.😉

@ Orac

You indeed noticed correctly. I don’t pretend to know what’s going to happen. But I’m afraid — make that petrified — it will be bad one way or another. But if I had to bet on which version of hell we’ll end up in if Snyder’s “ifs” come to pass, I’d probably go with shrugging acquiescence. [sigh]

Among the blogs on Substack is “The Truth Watercooler” by Jessica Rose featuring (surprise!) antivax articles. It has “hundreds of subscribers” at $6.99/month.

Mustn’t call negative attention to it though, or Christine will be along to chastise us for cruelty to the autistic.

DW: “…because I monitor so many altie cesspits, I sometimes despair.”

To cheer yourself up, visit Henry Makow’s website, to learn all about the Judeo-Masonic conspiracy behind lockdowns. It’s reassuring to know that bigoted alt-lunacy has a home in Canada.

But Dr Dangerous, HR went over all of fine points of Illuminati lore when I was hired.

Be that as it may, today Mikie speculates that if Jesus were around now, he’d act much like Mike: growing healthy food and medicine and teaching people. Mike spends money creating products that will help people survive the oncoming apocalypse. In fact, he is so close to G-d that he now receives premonitions like dreaming about water and “liquefaction” prior to the Tonga volcano/ tsunami. After all, our minds were made by G-d so why shouldn’t we understand his ways?
Mike believes that G-d led him to his ranch so he could collect fallen pine needles that he could analyse in his lab and use in the manufacture of natural medicine because they are high in shikimic acid.

“if Jesus were around now, he’d act much like Mike: growing healthy food and medicine and teaching people”

I suspect that Mikey has no real clue about Jesus because, if there was one thing that Jesus was keen on, it was rich people helping out the poor and sharing their resources. Not fortifying their ranch and preparing to shoot down hordes of desperate townies.

In fact, I think that there are parts of the US where Jesus is a big name, but the man himself would be tarred and feathered and run out of town for having dangerously communist views.

Forgive my ignorance, but I’ve been reading your comments for years but must have come in late as I have never understood exactly why you survey the quackosphere. It seems that it is actually your job!

Denice Walter- those natural pine needles apparently were a good source of a curative or preventive factor for scurvy when the juice was extracted ( perhaps boiled) and imbibed. Turns out, much later, the factor was ascorbic acid.

Don’t forget Kanadian konspiracy krackpot and Russian disinfo agent Michel Chossudovsky and his loopy globalresearch(dot)ca kooksite.

Michel Chossudovsky? You mean the respected professor emeritus of economics at the University of Ottawa? The distinguished author ?

Slipped my mind.

Kyrie Irving got to enjoy being the center of attention today at a press conference, where his unvaccinated status was again brought up (he can’t play in Nets home games in Brooklyn but is allowed to on the road.

He repeated that he is “rooted” in his decision to refuse Covid-19 vaccination, which he won’t explain except to say that he’s “protected by the doctors” (?)
The best quote from Irving: “I’m not bringing science into a basketball game”.

Can’t argue with that.

It now appears that Novak Djokovic is going to need to catch COVID-19 in late April to play in the French Open.

Orac writes,

“I’m tired of spending over $1,000 a year to maintain it and of having to deal with the problem every time there’s a technical glitch. ”

MJD says,

I’d support the blog Respectful Insolence financially if you offered an overpriced t-shirt that simply states, “Orac Knows?.”

It seems Substack has a fair share of dubious content, but in comparison to the broader realm of bad vaccine takes, I’m not sure it’s all THAT bad. I’d probably give the title of “new wretched hive of scum and quackery” to the US Supreme Court. ;- )

I agree.
I have been banned from commenting by Gnatural Gnus, Mercola, RFK Jr’s CHD, WND, etc., etc. all due to making a post that actually contained facts backed by evidence and links that refuted what these liars were stating.
I made the post, got a response or two and upon trying to answer got the big red BANNED banner… all from these lying hypocrites who demand that nobody censor them but who ruthlessly censor anybody who posts verifiable facts.
Perhaps the most egregious is RFK, Jr. who demands that private companies publish his unhinged and scurrilous anti-science screeds (claiming 1st amendment rights), all while ruthlessly censoring his own echo chamber discussion forum.
All the anti-vaccine, anti-science, alt-med kooks seem to be fascists and petty tyrants.
That’s how culties operate.

Since we’re discussing the intersection/ overlap (?) of pseudoscience and politics,
–I just read ( Newsweek) that RFK jr will join Joe Rogan ( with Del Bigtree, Malone, McCollough, Frontline Docs and many others) to “Defeat the Mandates” in Washington, Sunday as part of a global protest against vaccines, mandates and reason itself. They expect ” tens of thousands” to attend and march around war memorials.
— Incidentally, if you enjoy visual representations, there’s a map ( vaccinations/ Mayo Clinics- easy to find) that succinctly illustrates the political divide by showing states with higher rates in darker shades of green.

To be specific:
that’s US Covid vaccine tracker Mayo Clinic for the best map

@ sadmar:
Will you be here all week? I hope so.

@ sadmar :

I didn’t see what you wrote above ( @ 11.54) so I wasn’t being flippant.

BUT don’t you think that the place where you live ( ultra blue) will perhaps insulate you from the worst consequences if the unthinkable happens? I don’t know. Perhaps I’m being overly optimistic to think that these places will counteract the right wing overhaul much as how blue states are proactively working against the probable overturning of Roe by legislating abortion rights now. Some blue state governors opposed Trumpian tax changes through their own laws ( hey, righties always talk about “states’ rights so…). Also, you’ll be surrounded with a higher proportion of people who are politically similar to you. Unlike the mountain west, the south, prairie states.
The NE and Pacific Coast hopefully will become sanctuaries.

This post is so ironic.

Most of the posters here probably grew up in the 60’s-70’s-80’s and as most people do, rebelled against their parents and authority in general, some of you probably read the Berkeley Barb ( the essential underground newspapers on civil rights, anti-war and ‘counterculture) and maybe had a bumper sticker that read ‘QUESTION AUTHORITY” and probably had the attitude of ‘stick it to the man’. and “Mother Jones” was the quintessential reading for the free speech, anti authoritarian movement since the mid 70’s. Some people called for the raiding of the Berkeley Barb and shut down the printing presses because they might be ‘communist’ and god forbid promoters of sexual freedom. Both were very anti government because of the intrusive nature of that government into personal choice of lifestyle and freedom.

After reading this post and the replies, it is apparent what has evolved.

You have turned into YOUR PARENTS and have become the authoritarians, you hated in your youth, you are complaining just like your parents did about the life choices, reading materials, and political view points that you embraced.(remember people who got aids were getting what they deserved because they were ‘unclean”). How many posters here have said that the un-vaccinated deserved to get Covid and should be denied treatment ?

They too (your parents) all claimed that the US was doomed, just like you are doing now.

“How many posters here have said that the un-vaccinated deserved to get Covid and should be denied treatment ?”

Name them.

Whatever, Boomer.
(That’s what all the hip young things say to dismiss people who are attempting to dismiss them based solely on perceived age, right?)

I can’t speak for the commentariat, but I at least am an elder millennial (so no, I didn’t grow up in the 60’s or 70’s, those are my parents, thanks). So I’ve got no idea what you’re talking about the “Berkeley Barb” (though I did go there for grad school).

But I have to say, it is fascinating how you’re now at least the second person who has read this article criticizing Substack for the publication of completely not-true things and has assumed that it is a call for censorship. Saying that the World Weekly News is full of stories about BatBoy going to Mars and other completely not true things is not saying that it should be destroyed. It’s saying that it’s full of lies.

Saying “there’s a lot of dangerous crap on Substack” is like saying “watch your step in the cow field”.

As for who I hated in my youth – honestly I didn’t really hate anyone. I thought (and think) that anti GMO crusaders are dumb, and that eco terrorists are both dumb and scary, but as someone who “grew up” in the 90’s – yeah, stuff’s different.

I don’t recall protesters in the ’60s and ’70s rebelling against vaccines, or declaring that public health leaders were plotting depopulation of the earth. QAnon-style craziness is a much more recent phenomenon.

As for Mother Jones, it seems to have figured out the difference between questioning authority and blindly embracing every conspiracy theory that comes down the pike.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/08/americas-anti-vaxxers-are-getting-more-dangerous/

There’s another important difference between the protestors of the ’60s-70s ( or 90s) and anti-vaxxers/ anti-government rebels being discussed ;
age– the former groups were youth protesting a war and the outdated mores of their parents’ generation. It makes sense for young people to rebel because they are currently engaged in the rapidly changing culture and its problems unlike older people who are more attuned to the past, unprepared for new realities in most cases.
Those being discussed here are not young people starting out in life: RFK jr, Del Bigtree, Andy Wakefield, Malone, McCollough, Mercola, Adams, Null, anti-vaxxers, SubStack writers, QAnon. In fact, most of them already are parents or grandparents.

Most of the posters here probably grew up in the 60’s-70’s-80’s and as most people do, rebelled against their parents and authority in general

I certainly had this thing about authority in general, because they were wanting to draft me and ship me off to a war in Asia that I cared nothing about. I wasn’t allowed to vote, but I was going to be allowed to die.

Fortunately, the government changed and they pulled out of the senseless war before I had to experience it. After that, I found myself a lot less rebellious against authority and tended to behave myself.

some of you probably read the Berkeley Barb

Nope. Had never heard of it.

and “Mother Jones” was the quintessential reading

Had not heard of that either until about 30 years ago.

You have turned into YOUR PARENTS and have become the authoritarians, you hated in your youth

My parents were never authoritarians. My Dad protested against the war in Asia before I did. He once notably described the Prime Minister as “Thick as a brick”. He introduced me to Monty Python and Aunty Jack. I would tell you the story about the Admirals and public toilets, but you don’t deserve it.

How many posters here have said that the un-vaccinated deserved to get Covid and should be denied treatment ?

I dunno. You have.

I will say NOW that people who have refused the vaccine (as opposed to those unvaccinated for some other reason) will get what they deserve regardless of what I opine about it, but I will assert that those people should be at the end of the triage line at hospitals overwhelmed with pandemic cases.

FWIW, as a Midwesterner, I did not read the Berkeley Barb. I did have a subscription to Mother Jones for awhile, though I dropped it when they went too bouzhie by firing Michael Moore. I can attest, though,having “been there” that Clint’s attempt to rewrite the 60’s movements as libertarianism is full of horsesh!t.

NN headline Jan 18th – “Corporations take out life insurance policies on EMPLOYEES then push vaccine MANDATES to kill them and cash in”

So, we finally have a coherent explanation for the global vaccine depopulation conspiracy. Bill Gates and his henchmen have secretly taken out life insurance policies on everyone.

It’s beyond sinister. Flo is hopping mad.

I’m sorry, are you taking bets on whether an 80 year old civil servant might choose to retire from a long career of working his tail off in the face of death threats to himself and his family? And you’re trying to make something political about it?

That’s a really strange thing to say.

Denice et al.

Yep they were all teenagers, Wayne Morse, Coretta King, Dr. Ben Spock, George McGovern, Norman Mailer, Henry Fonda, Muhammad Ali., Frank Church, Eugene McCarthy, Huey Newton, Bobby Seale,…..those meddling kids. The Chicago 7 were in their late 30-’s or early 40’s, one was in his 60’s

“Senseless War” ??? Did you protest the Iraq war? Probably not, because you weren’t getting sent there. Of course you didn’t learn history, we actually had bombs going off and snipers killing political leaders in the 60’s and 70’s, but you have it worse now…..

And actually the young are starting to realize that the government doesn’t know what they are doing in regards to the pandemic and can see that the government is not helping the needy or at least ineffective in helping no matter how much tax money is collected or spent. They can see the 6 foot rule , cloth masks, Lysoling everything, are ineffective, they can see that there are just as many poor and uneducated as there were in the 50’s .

And the teens of of the 60’s-70’s actually, they did believe that the governments were trying to depopulated the earth, with books like ‘Silent Spring” and the ‘Population Bomb”. Or the plan to put birth control in African water supplies or that the war in Vietnam was a war against minorities and the poor in an attempt to limit future population.

Just look at the children of the 60’s-70’s anti war protesters, they are prosecutors, heads of big companies and high ranking government officials. They became what their parents fought against.

As to the “Berkeley Barb” I am sure you can look up copies of them, it would put any anti government sub-stack post to shame.

“And the teens of of the 60’s-70’s actually, they did believe that the governments were trying to depopulated the earth, with books like ‘Silent Spring” and the ‘Population Bomb”.”

This remark reflects gross ignorance.

“Silent Spring” was not a rant about the threat of global depopulation, nor were teens of the ’60s and ’70s heavily represented among those carrying a banner for it. “The Population Bomb” reflected concern about runaway overpopulation but did not promote secret (or overt) government depopulation efforts as the answer.

I doubt you read either book or were sentient during the ’60s and ’70s.*

*not that you’re very sentient _now_.

Hon, the things the young people of today are worried about (besides the pandemic) are the failure of the people in power to do anything about climate change (and, specific to the US, school shootings).

And you know what? The people in the generation proceeding them have had the same issues and have been working on the same problem since they were teens.

If anything the 6 feet and sanitizing was at least doing something, unlike the reaction of the powerful (all over the world) to climate change.

(And just for the sake of clarity, whom exactly are you designating “the youth”? Millennials? Gen Y? Both?)

@ Clint

I was an undergraduate during early 1960s. I shared a termite-ridden house with five others, mattresses on the floor. One of my roommates was President of local chapter of SDS (students for a democratic society). Among other things he led draft card burning demonstration. While I didn’t burn my draft card, I was active in all campus and city demonstrations against war in Vietnam and also demonstrations supporting Civil Rights. Never was it even mentioned that U.S. was in Vietnam to reduce world’s population. Our government kept playing up the domino theory, simply that communism would spread and had to be stopped. However, in university library were books on Vietnam’s history which explained most Vietnamese holidays as celebrating battle against Chinese. And, at the same time, Tito’s Yugoslavia had broken off from Soviet Union and was an independent communist state. We also knew how U.S. broke agreement to allow free elections in Vietnam in 1956. We were simply protesting against an aggressive criminal war killing innocent people. I didn’t need to protest because I had a minor health condition that exempted me from military service; but I remind you that many Americans volunteered to serve during World War II, so even if one could have been drafted for Vietnam War doesn’t mean only reason was risk of being drafted. Many Americans will fight when it’s right; but not otherwise. Our wars, except WWII, have been fought to benefit the arms industry and other industries; e.g., oil, metals, etc (see list below)

And I was involved in protests against Iraqi wars, both of them and Black Lives Matter (I am white).

Oh, I read Silent Spring when it first came out (still own original copy, what does it have to do with population?) and the Population Bomb. One can discuss the Population Bomb; but experts have made clear that if we were to properly use world’s resources; e.g., vegetarian diets, animals use far more water, forests cut down, etc. and a humane distribution system, plus stop global warming, the original Population Bomb’s numbers were way too low.

You write: “And actually the young are starting to realize that the government doesn’t know what they are doing in regards to the pandemic and can see that the government is not helping the needy or at least ineffective in helping no matter how much tax money is collected or spent. They can see the 6 foot rule , cloth masks, Lysoling everything, are ineffective, they can see that there are just as many poor and uneducated as there were in the 50’s.”

You are really illogical. How does government handling of pandemic relate to poor and uneducated? We had as many before pandemic. And it is a national disgrace.

As for 6 foot rule, mask, etc. there are numerous studies from around the world that do show they work, not perfectly; but significantly reduce infections, hospitalizations, long covid, and deaths.

Lysol cleaning was based on what had been successful with previous pandemics. Then when we learned that covid was only airborne, no longer necessary. The original decision was the right one. When a pandemic breaks out, use whatever has worked in past until know more about it. And some will work. Otherwise, risk many more sick, hospitalized, etc.

As for the anti-war protestors now having high ranking positions, great. They were right in protesting Vietnam War, Iraqi Wars, etc. But not because believed waged to reduce world population; but to benefit corporations, military, killing innocent people and because some Americans just have contempt for human lives. This nation has a long brutal history, against native Americans, invasion of Mexico, Philippines, Slavery, etc.

I don’t trust government, nor do I distrust. I listen to what they say, then do my homework, not social media, not blogs; but valid websites. For covid, peer-reviewed journal articles, various nations public health websites; e.g., Sweden, UK, Canada, CDC, WHO, and others and reports from local departments of public health. And, as a retired epidemiologist understanding history of pandemics, immunology, etc. I have been following COVID-19 closely and our government has made mistakes; but the biggest problem is that many Americans are scientifically illiterate and get their info from social media, various blogs, and Fox news. We are, unfortunately, not a nation. Areas with high levels of unvaccinated, of refusal to wear masks, have highest levels of COVID hospitalizations, etc. Even areas with high both, still have overwhelmed hospitals; but almost all among unvaccinated.

Your comments are illogical, combining totally different things, irrational, almost as if lacking thinking, just a stream of consciousness.

U.S. Military – Our Government Lies Used for Defense when, in reality, used to further Corporate Interests

William Blum (2003). Killing Hope: US Military & CIA Interventions since World War II. Available at: https://www.cia.gov/library/abbottabad-compound/13/130AEF1531746AAD6AC03… [also for purchase on amazon.com

Major General Smedley Butler   War Is A Racket. Available at: https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf  [Butler is the most decorated marine in American history]

Mason Gaffney (March 2018). Corporate Power and Expansive U.S. Military Policy. American Journal of Economics and Sociology, Vol. 77, No. 2. Pages 331 – 417. Available at: https://www.globalresearch.ca/corporate-power-and-expansive-u-s-military…

Stephen Kinzer (2017). The True Flag: Theodore Roosevelt, Mark Twain, and the Birth of American Empire. Henry Holt. Available amazon.com. Also available San Diego Public Library

Stephen C. Schlesinger (1983). Bitter Fruit: The Untold Story of the American Coup in Guatemala. Inexpensive copies available on Amazon.com  Also available San Diego Public Library

@ jlbatx

You write: “Any bets on a pre-midterms Fauci retirement?”

I hope he stays healthy and continues. I have followed Fauci’s career going back decades, have read many of his peer-reviewed journal articles, etc. Thus, have tremendous respect for the man. Has he made mistakes? Yep, partly because of insufficient data, etc. And I would NEVER want his job, doing most things right; but under considerable political pressure, especially under Trump.

As many others, your understanding of Fauci is based on right-wing media, social media, blogs; but I doubt you have done any actual research, read any of his peer-reviewed journal articles, etc, followed his career for decades. You just keep posting absurd, irrational comments.

Though I wouldn’t rely on it alone, PBS has a nice documentary on Fauci. You should watch it.

Fauci is a narcissist and a serial liar. You want to know why people are vax hesitant – it’s partly due to this type of arrogance (also doesn’t help that Pharma long discredited itself for that three doses inside of a year do nothing at all to prevent infection). He used minions to publish fake studies about treatments that later had to be retracted and he sought to silence his opponents. He 1000 times worse than Trump at least Trump was held accountable. Ever see Dallas buyer’s club. Fauci should be brought up on charges.

[Fauci] used minions to publish fake studies about treatments that later had to be retracted and he sought to silence his opponents.

Details, please. Or you’re just talking rot.

Sadmar
I can attest, though,having “been there” that Clint’s attempt to rewrite the 60’s movements as libertarianism is full of horsesh!t.

I don’t know what 60’s you grew up in but ……… I remember, ‘do your own thing’, free love, tune in-turn on drop out, Woodstock……..

The reason we had such a large anti war protest was because returning veterans of Vietnam told us how much the US government had mislead the citizens on the war, and whistleblowers like Daniel Ellsberg and media like the ‘old’ Washington Post (Kathrine Graham) were willing to question what the government was putting out. Having worked in government compliance office for 20 years, one thing is certain, ‘the government lies’, if for no other reason then to maintain their budgets.

usnews.com/news/articles/2010/03/12/the-1960s-polarization-cynicism-and-the-youth-rebellionredirect

‘For What it’s worth” Buffalo Springfield
“Eve of Destruction” Barry McGuire
“Fortunate Son” CCR
“Galveston” Glen Campbell

Port Huron statement by Tom Hayden

“We regard men as infinitely precious and possessed of unfulfilled capacities for reason, freedom, and love. In affirming these principles we are aware of countering perhaps the dominant conceptions of man in the twentieth century: that he is a thing to be manipulated, and that he is inherently incapable of directing his own affairs.”

“We are subject to a remote control economy, which excludes the mass of individual “units” — the people — from basic decisions affecting the nature and organization of work, rewards, and opportunities.”

“The drive for sales spurs phenomenal advertising efforts; the ethical drug industry, for instance, spent more than $750 million on promotions in 1960, nearly for times the amount available to all American medical schools for their educational programs.”

images2.americanprogress.org/campus/email/PortHuronStatement.pdf

“You have turned into YOUR PARENTS and have become the authoritarians “

This convinces me more than ever that Clint’s only knowledge of the ’60s and ’70s is what he’s gotten from reading bad articles on fringe websites.*

*and watching insurance commercials.

@ Clint

I agree our government lied to us; but you seem incapable of a nuanced view of the world. Everything for you is black and white. And you are completely wrong about people believing we fought wars to reduce world’s population, though I’m sure one can find a few who believe that, just as people believe in QAnon. However, though governments lie, so do people, not all the time. You conflate lying about wars with poverty, covid mitigation, and just about everything else. You are a prime example of one of the main problems in our nation, people who see everything in black and white, people who lack the basics of science, people who rely on right-wing media, social media, and blogs.

One example is your pointing to drug industry profits. Yep, absolutely true. However, if I go to supermarket I can buy potato chips, soft drinks, and cigarettes or I can buy fresh veggie, fruits, nuts, and grains. The companies that supply the aforementioned make a profit and the supermarkets make a profit. In other words, profit doesn’t say anything about a products value, good, in between, or harmful. Drug companies spend large amounts of money to develop products, though some of funds from government. Unfortunately, if product doesn’t work as hoped, some companies still market; but they also produce products that are quite valuable; e.g., insulin. One can argue about how much profit; but profits don’t say anything about value of product. Chemotherapy and, for instance, monoclonal antibodies can save people lives, etc; but profits are too high and our government should crack down; but still the products are of benefit. Same with vaccines, despite what ill-informed unscientific types believe.

As for 60s free love, again, what does that have to do with anything. It was mainly small proportion of college kids, didn’t harm anyone, and vast majority went on to successful contributing lives. And, yep, to some extent it was a reaction to horrors of Vietnam War, racism, and corporate dominance of economy; but, the difference between people like you and me is your gross one-sided exaggeration.

So, you can cite the Port Huron, I can cite; but won’t posted and well-read statements by Alt-Right, Racists, Anti-Semites, etc. One can always find documents to back any position.

As for war protests, returning military; yep, I was at University of Hawaii, so we were first to meet returning veterans and also those on leave who would be returning to Vietnam; but again, being against Vietnam War, Iraq Wars, etc. had and still has definite reasons; but pandemics another thing entirely. And corporate dominance also has little to nothing to do with pandemic unless you believe in a world-wide conspiracy theory that almost all medical personnel, public health researchers, etc. don’t care about their profession, their nations; but simply go along with corporations???

And what you and other unfortunately don’t understand, besides not understanding infectious diseases, etc. is that rights have to be balanced with responsibilities. As several Supreme Court Justices have said over the years: “the Constitution is not a suicide pact.” Wearing a mask, practicing physical distancing, getting a vaccine are minor inconveniences compared to getting sick oneself or being asymptomatic and infecting others, which could result in serious illness, hospitalizations, and death. And the vaccines are quite safe. 100%. Nope; but risk is minuscule compared to alternative. At 74, after devoting several weeks to reviewing mRNA, mRNA vaccine research, etc. I was volunteer in Moderna mRNA vaccine clinical trial. I have been blood donor for over 45 years; but after got vaccine started donating convalescent plasma every four weeks, used with hospitalized covid patients. Now donate every four weeks one unit plasma and one unit platelets (the latter used for cancer patients). I believe in community, so even if I were young and totally healthy I would have gotten vaccine to significantly reduce risk of asymptomatically infecting others who either couldn’t be vaccinated or vaccine didn’t take. Unfortunately, too many Americans don’t really believe in community.

WTF does anything you posted have to do with people turning into their parents ways by imposing authority.

Did you even read my first post and did you read Denice and others replies and other posts?

I included Tom Hayden’s papers to show just how far the left has gone by endorsed the authoritarianism/big government that they decried in their youth and what liberals were complaining about in the 60’s are now what conservatives are complaining about or do you really think Hayden was a closet conservative. Do you really think that Catherine Graham (and others) would have ever been a parrot for the government on anything and not just the military? Do you really think she would have allowed anyone in government to say this ‘So it’s easy to criticize, but they’re really criticizing science because I represent science.’ (feel free to substitute any government agency, from the military to the DOJ, EPA,DOT etc, in place of science). Without justifiable contempt and criticism ?

If you left off all your personal stuff from all your post you might have 2-3 paragraphs of materials worth reading.

You are the believer in black and white, either your pro covid vaccine, pro masks, pro lock down or you are an anti-vaxxers and you will cheer when your opposition are de platformed or silenced, you have become the authoritarians.

Joel
WTF does anything you posted have to do with people turning into their parents ways by imposing authority.

Did you even read my first post and did you read Denice and others replies and other posts?

I included Tom Hayden’s papers to show just how far the left has gone by endorsed the authoritarianism/big government that they decried in their youth and what liberal were complaining about in the 60’s are now what conservatives are complaining about or do you really think Hayden was a closet conservative. Do you really think that Catherine Graham (and others) would have ever been a parrot for the government on anything, let alone the military?

You claim to agree that the government lies when it comes to the military but willing to believe them in other areas.

You are the believer in black and white, either your pro covid vaccine, pro masks, pro lock down or you are an anti-vaxxers and you will cheer when your opposition are de platformed or silenced, you have become the authoritarians.

“did not promote secret (or overt) government depopulation efforts as the answer.”

The book ‘Silent Spring’ lead to governments banning the use of DDT which resulted in the devastating deaths in poor, mostly Africians countries from malaria carrying mosquitos. The ‘Population Bomb” lead to research into how birth control could be introduced into the water supplies in Africa. Remember John Holdren (science czar) co authored a book with the Ehrlich on how to accomplish zero population growth.

Actually, claim that everything govermentr says is wrong is nor much different than claiming that everything government says is right, In both cases, no thinking is needed. So, get into discussion about ways to promote public health,

Government and its partners in Media, big tech and big Pharma don’t care about the truth when they can simply attack opposition as misinformation. They only have to worry about their agenda which is for whatever reason pushing a pretty leaky pretty unsafe (as compared to others) vaccine on the public and ignoring treatment options.

In any case if the government wants 75 years to produce what it relied upon to conclude a vaccine is safe the correct presumptions are 1) the vaccine is not safe and 2) the government is corrupt. This is really the only conclusion that makes any sense in these circumstances.

“Government and its partners in Media, big tech and big Pharma don’t care about the truth when they can simply attack opposition as misinformation. They only have to worry about their agenda”

“They” are not a faceless Thing.

You’re lumping together tens of millions of people as having a sinister “agenda”.

You really think the people you characterize as “Government and its partners” are happy to sacrifice themselves, their families and friends for this “agenda”?

How agnorant.*

*= extreme ignorance plus extreme arrogance.

@jttbax I notice that you did go anything specific. It is all governments, yaht has that “vaccination agenda”. Perhaps all governments base this on clinical data ? Go and read relevant papers.
Actually safety data must be released in 8 months:
https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/paramount-importance-judge-orders-fda-hasten-release-pfizer-vaccine-docs-2022-01-07/
There were actually follow up studies, not done by Pfizer. Post msrketing surveillance is not done by Pfizer, either.

“they can simply attack opposition as misinformation.”

You mean like accusing anyone who disagrees with you as being in the pay of big media or big pharma?

DDT is still used for malaria control in some parts of the world, including the country of South Africa.

In fact the only use of DDT that is aligned with the Stockholm Convention on POPs is for use in malaria control.

So that’s not true and it took me literally seconds on a search engine to find that out.

Silent Spring wasn’t about banning all pesticides. It was about bringing awareness to the unintended consequences of heavy and indiscriminate use of pesticides. Seriously, have you read Silent Spring recently? The use of sprayed pesticides is horrifying even if you only consider the human exposure.

@ Clint

You write: “The book ‘Silent Spring’ lead to governments banning the use of DDT which resulted in the devastating deaths in poor, mostly Africians countries from malaria carrying mosquitos.”

WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!

Rachel Carson didn’t call for the banning of DDT. She called for the precautionary principle, that is, before spraying literally millions of pounds of a chemical into the environment, do some research. DDT half life in soil about 15 years, so constant spraying and increased amounts, cumulative. And it was found out that as early as 1950s mosquitos had developed resistance to DDT despite ever larger quantities; but, at the same time, beneficial insects were being decimated and the birds that kept mosquito levels down. DDT was found accumulating in various bodily tissues and labeled suspected carcinogen. However, they didn’t stop using DDT; but instead of mass spraying, targeted spraying, bed nets, walls, plus draining of water sources, etc. and malaria was brought under control in many areas of Africa.. I have numerous papers that back up the above; but one excellent book; Randall M. Packard (2007). The Making of a Tropical Disease: A Short History of Malaria. Johns Hopkins Biographies of Disease. You can also find online: EPA (1975). DDT: A Review of Scientific and Economic Aspects of the Decision to Ban Its Use as a Pesticide. And the WHO recommends DDT for indoor use, e.g., spraying walls and nets in Africa where the benefits of controlling malaria outweigh the risks. Note. besides several books, chapters in other books, I currently have 80 papers on DDT and malaria and have, at one time or another, read them all. So, thank you for displaying your IGNORANCE. Yep, mass spraying everywhere of DDT was ended; but not its use; but other pesticides, much better researched, are also being used.

You write: “I included Tom Hayden’s papers to show just how far the left has gone by endorsed the authoritarianism/big government that they decried in their youth and what liberal were complaining about in the 60’s are now what conservatives are complaining about or do you really think Hayden was a closet conservative.”

So, he wrote a paper. What percentage of population followed what it called for? As I wrote, one can find lots of positions on internet; e.g., racism, anti-semitism, etc. And you ignore that rights are balanced with responsibilities. It is NOT authoritarian to require masks, physical distancing, even vaccines. Quarantine laws have existed for over 500 years. If someone enters the U.S. with a highly contagious disease, they are placed in quarantine. Should we end such laws? Since we know COVID-19 is highly contagious even when asymptomatic, the aforementioned reasonable. As I wrote and you ignore, several Supreme Court Justices have stated: The Constitution is NOT a suicide pact. And I would be willing to bet that many of Hayden’s generation are liberals on many issues; but rational when it comes to a pandemic. Once again, you lump everything together. Really foolish!

You write: “You claim to agree that the government lies when it comes to the military but willing to believe them in other areas.”

Yep, I wrote they lie and sometimes tell the truth; but if an important issue, I do my own homework, not Fox News, not blogs, not social media. So, I guess you don’t understand English. I am NOT willing to automatically believe them and made that clear for anyone who understands the English language.

You write: “You are the believer in black and white, either your pro covid vaccine, pro masks, pro lock down or you are an anti-vaxxers and you will cheer when your opposition are de platformed or silenced, you have become the authoritarians.”

I guess you haven’t been following this blog. Even peer-reviewed journals have published papers, mainly poorly done, that could be considered anti-vax, anti-mitigation. There is Fox News, America Online, numerous blogs, social media, and testimony before Congress, various government agencies, State and City governments, and Editorials/Letters in many newspapers. How, otherwise, would we have so many unvaccinated, not wearing masks, etc.? However, given the overwhelming evidence that mitigation works, that vaccines work with minuscule risk, at some point having people yell fire in an open theater when there isn’t a fire can get old and dangerous; but, as usual along with other ill-informed, illogical people you grossly exaggerate silencing. In fact, some antivaxxeers have actually written they just want people to listen to them; but if one follows the context, it is like a parent saying to a child: “you didn’t listen to me, so no dessert.” In other words, they don’t want to be heard, they want to be agreed with.

You write: “Joel
WTF does anything you posted have to do with people turning into their parents ways by imposing authority.”

All or none. So, if push vaccines and other COVID mandates, then must mean authoritarian, not following basics of public health and overwhelming science.

Did you know that comprehensive research on the 1918 flu pandemic found that cities that implemented masks, physical distancing, closing of entertainment places, and schools suffered literally half the deaths of cities that didn’t? Or, perhaps, you don’t value human life, more important to not wear masks, not get vaccinated, even if could mean significant increase in suffering, hospitalizations and deaths.

And it was found out that as early as 1950s mosquitos had developed resistance to DDT despite ever larger quantities; but, at the same time, beneficial insects were being decimated and the birds that kept mosquito levels down.

Yep.
For the curious who have a chance to travel that way, there is a deliciously small museum in Chiang Mai, Thailand, about insects and other curios.
The woman who created that museum and her husband spent years studying and battling mosquitoes and malaria. A good part of the first floor exhibit is about their life experience.
Almost the first panel is about how there are – were – more than 400 species of mosquitoes in Thailand, but only about 20 of these are human-blood-suckers and disease vectors.
The author was quite clear on how indiscriminate spraying of pesticides is, in retrospect, not the best strategy.

@ jlbatx

You write: “Government and its partners in Media, big tech and big Pharma don’t care about the truth when they can simply attack opposition as misinformation. They only have to worry about their agenda which is for whatever reason pushing a pretty leaky pretty unsafe (as compared to others) vaccine on the public and ignoring treatment options.
In any case if the government wants 75 years to produce what it relied upon to conclude a vaccine is safe the correct presumptions are 1) the vaccine is not safe and 2) the government is corrupt. This is really the only conclusion that makes any sense in these circumstances.”

The research is overwhelming that the vaccines work, not perfectly; but quite well in reducing severe illness, hospitalizations, long covid, and deaths. And they are quite safe with a minuscule amount of serious adverse effects. And anyone who understands immunology and vaccinology knows that if a severe adverse effect doesn’t arise with one month, maybe in rare occasions, two months, then no long term consequences. Vaccines arouse the immune system just as natural microbes do. Sort of like military war games, everything as realistic as possible, except no live rounds. If you believe vaccines can cause long term adverse consequences, then all those infected with the much more powerful natural virus, even if asymptomatic should suffer much more and more serious long term consequences. And, actually possible since they have found, for instance, vascular damage in many COVID patients; but NOT vaccinated.

Keep making a fool of yourself

Again if the entity approving the safety of the vax wants to wait until everyone currently taking it is dead in order to produce the documents relied upon to conclude it’s safe, the correct presumption is that 1) the vax is unsafe and 2) the government entity doing the approving is corrupt. When government hides information the correct presumption is corruption. I’m not convinced that all the adverse reactions have been published; I’m not convinced that that vaccines don’t cause long term vascular damage. Moreover, not every covid infection makes it to the vascular system like the mRNA vaccine so your risk assessment is off.

@jlbatx:

Again if the entity approving the safety of the vax wants to wait until everyone currently taking it is dead in order to produce the documents relied upon to conclude it’s safe…

This claim needs a lot of context. Why are you claiming the government is going to wait 75 years befire releasing safety data on the COVID vaccines?

I went to Substack to read ( Malone) and it’s quite unbelievably awful. They allow you to “read first” before paying for the great pleasure of being informed by these….. writers. I learned that Gary Null also is on Substack presenting healthy living articles, exposes and recipes.
( Natural News) it seems that Malone has a new book that will be coming out soon on Skyhorse ( where else?)

@ Denice

Yep, Skyhorse publishes Wakefield, etc. I really think they should change their name from Skyhorse to Unicorn. What do you think??? Of course, Skyhorse quite close to Unicorn.

I really don’t know if worth the time and effort to counter some of the unscientific, illogical, ill-informed who post comments on this website. Wonder if getting carpal tunnel syndrome worth the effort.?? And I should control my temper; but when they completely ignore what I write despite often including multiple references, etc. difficult to keep my cool, even at my age. Oh well.

@ Joel:

Your diligent work is much appreciated by the regulars and most likely, by the lurkers.
Plus, your diatribes against flaming stupidity are highly entertaining.

Joel posted this about the Port Huron statement.

“So, he wrote a paper. What percentage of population followed what it called for?”

Yet Joel you claimed to have been friends/associated with several ‘SDS’ members during the 60’s. The Port Huron statement was written by members of the “SDS’ and presented at the their first national convention as their platform and has been considered the starting point for the “New Left” but I am sure you knew that but you were just being Joel.

and

“So, if push vaccines and other COVID mandates, then must mean authoritarian, not following basics of public health and overwhelming science.”

Mandates are authoritarian (congress has not passed any law mandating vaccinations, would you follow any mandate that republican/Trump/Bush issued) and basic public health and overwhelming science are two different issues, please explain basic public health that is universal other than hand washing and normal sanitation practices), then explain the ever changing science of masks, 6 foot distance (political decision), 5 day isolation or was it 10 days or 14 days (all political decisions), the clear plastic glass sheets to separate people, the over use of disinfectants , one way isles in stores, even the CDC now admits cloth masks are ineffective and even the CEO of Pfizer admits that vaccine is ineffective against omicron, the overwhelming science you speak of, changes from week to week and the devastating effect on the environment caused by discarded mask, plastic screens and over used disinfectants will be with us for the next century.

nytimes.com/2022/01/14/health/cloth-masks-covid-cdc.html

nbcmiami.com/news/local/changing-climate-south-florida/improper-disposal-of-masks-is-contributing-greatly-to-ocean-pollution/2434977/

and please show us the science behind your claim that

“Or, perhaps, you don’t value human life, more important to not wear masks, not get vaccinated, even if could mean significant increase in suffering, hospitalizations and deaths.’

and I don’t mean some guesses made by some researcher who actually was able to produce real numbers using the different approaches and blind studies to the virus. Please show us the state or country where all those things had much of an effect on the hospitalizations and deaths.

The suffering will go on for years from the measures that were enforced to stop the spread of the virus (no matter how ineffective they were) how many cancer patients didn’t get treatment or for that matter cancers that were undetected, surgeries that weren’t preformed, social isolation that lead to drug and alcohol abuse (drug deaths are doubled, from about 50,000 to over 100,000 since the clinics and treatment center were closed) and non treatment, job loss, business closed, unemployment, knee and hip replacements not being done, social isolation of the elderly (the list goes on and on), those are the long term consequence of your solutions.

Much of what you believed science showed in 2020 has now been refuted or changed, even Fauci’s own research of the Spanish flu shows most people died of pneumonia not the Spanish flu, we are going to find out in a couple of years that Covid didn’t cause the deaths but was just a contributor, to quote the CDC director “Over 75% Of COVID Deaths In Vaccinated Had ‘At Least 4 Comorbidities’.”

You stated “you don’t value human life” well I do value human life and a can balance the pros and cons of actions, you on the other hand don’t because you focus on the virus not on the totality of the situation.

So please, your self idolatry is a bore as is your need for social inter action for what ever reason

Justa

I never claimed it was banned world wide. here is my quote.

“The book ‘Silent Spring’ lead to GOVERNMENTS banning the use of DDT which resulted in the devastating deaths in poor, mostly Africians countries from malaria carrying mosquitos.”

The devastation caused by the disuse of DDT is not in question.

@ Clint: And I clearly stated that DDT is still in use against malaria.
How is the US not allowing DDT in the Us impacting the ability of South Africa to use DDT against malaria (which they are doing right now)?

Just admit that you were in error and let it go.

“please explain basic public health that is universal other than hand washing and normal sanitation practices” – Vaccination. See please smallpox and polio. It’s fine if you don’t know a lot about public health measures worldwide in the 20th and 21st centuries, but please take some effort to learn before talking like people with public health degrees don’t know what they are talking about.

There are tons of public health practices that are intended to be universal (but are limited by resource availability) – Trash pickup. Stagnant water prevention. Safe roads. Prenatal care. Window screens. Safe food supply and production.

@ Clint

You write: “I never claimed it was banned world wide. here is my quote.
“The book ‘Silent Spring’ lead to GOVERNMENTS banning the use of DDT which resulted in the devastating deaths in poor, mostly Africians countries from malaria carrying mosquitos.”
The devastation caused by the disuse of DDT is not in question.”

I explained it wasn’t banned in Africa. Just how STUPID AND DISHONEST are you??? I also explained that mosquitos had developed resistance to it.

You write: ““Over 75% Of COVID Deaths In Vaccinated Had ‘At Least 4 Comorbidities’.”

Yep, absolutely true; but MORON, the deaths among fully vaccinated was exponentially less than among unvaccinated, so, the 75% is from a very small number. and given they were at the highest risk they probably would have died anyway and the vaccine may have saved many with 4 comorbidities. And among unvaccinated, the more comorbidities the higher the death rate among the much higher number of unvaccinated who have died.

You write: “The suffering will go on for years from the measures that were enforced to stop the spread of the virus (no matter how ineffective they were) how many cancer patients didn’t get treatment or for that matter cancers that were undetected, surgeries that weren’t preformed, social isolation that lead to drug and alcohol abuse (drug deaths are doubled, from about 50,000 to over 100,000 since the clinics and treatment center were closed) and non treatment, job loss, business closed, unemployment, knee and hip replacements not being done, social isolation of the elderly (the list goes on and on), those are the long term consequence of your solutions.”

And you are partially correct; but had our government dealt with the pandemic correctly at the outset, they could have limited the mitigation measures; e.g., by adequate testing, tracing, and isolation; but also because mitigation has not been followed, and some areas hit and miss, difficult to evaluate. As for drug deaths, most from opioids and partly coincidence that they were pushed around time of epidemic and government didn’t stop the overprescription of. I have NOT seen conclusive evidence of excessive deaths from cancer. And everything we know about COVID, we easily could have had over 2 million deaths and hospitals would have been even more overwhelmed and still would NOT have had resources to help those with cancer, etc. Even now hospitals are being overwhelmed in various parts of nation by COVID patients. Thankfully we have developed treatments, so more will live; but probably with long covid. So, yep, mitigation did increase drug and alcohol abuse; but compared to what??? Two million deaths, probably another half million with long covid, etc. and how would that have affected people, friends, over ones, employers, etc???

You write: “Yet Joel you claimed to have been friends/associated with several ‘SDS’ members during the 60’s. The Port Huron statement was written by members of the “SDS’ and presented at the their first national convention as their platform and has been considered the starting point for the “New Left” but I am sure you knew that but you were just being Joel.”

First, what do you mean by the “New Left”? A society focusing on people not profits? A more loving humane society? Unfortunately, living in one of the most vicious nations on the planet, 4% of population, 25% of imprisoned, some estimates up to 100,000 totally innocent and system that bends over backwards to not overturn convictions. I have followed innocent projects since my preteen years. And draconian sentences for minor offenses. And when innocence project has proved beyond any doubt that police and/or DA falsified evidence, suborned perjury,and/or withheld clearly exculpatory evidence almost never did they go to prison, pay fines, or even lose their jobs. Racism. On per capita basis, more people killed by police, abused by police than any other technologically advanced nation. Alt-right, racism, etc.; and the only health care system in the world paid for through taxes and turned over to a for-profit sector. 30 cents on dollar of health cost in U.S. unneccessary excess bureaucracies, highly paid executives, and profits. So, yep, the new left failed. You seem to be happy about that! I lived in Sweden for 10 years where on a per capita basis they actually had more small independent businesses than here. Yep, health care and schools run by government and better health care for all, lower infant mortality among even refugees from Africa and Middle East than here, etc. Americans don’t understand words like socialism and communism. They are used as red flags so that ignorant Americans vote against their own best interests.

You write: “Much of what you believed science showed in 2020 has now been refuted or changed, even Fauci’s own research of the Spanish flu shows most people died of pneumonia not the Spanish flu, we are going to find out in a couple of years that Covid didn’t cause the deaths”

You really are IGNORANT. If someone was shot with a gun and bacteria that were antibiotic resistant entered their body and though surgeons could remove bullet and stem bleeding they died from infection I guess you would say gun shot had nothing to do with it. First, many of the pneumonias they died from were different from what most people assume. They died quickly from what today might be called acute respiratory distress syndrome. Something about the flu virus elicited a cytokine storm, overreaction of immune system that flooded their lungs. I don’t give a shit what you think, I have read a dozen books and chapters on 1918 flu and 100s of articles. And there is strong evidence that COVID does kill people in many different ways. Since pandemic began I have devoted about an hour per day to reading peer-reviewed journal articles, government reports from Sweden, UK, Canada, etc. CDC, WHO, etc. For instance, just for the Moderna vaccine there are now about 400 peer-reviewed articles. And many for effectiveness of masks. Yep, as more data has come in, approaches have been modified. That is how science and public health work. In beginning, based on past experience, implement what has worked, then as more info/data, adjust. People like you don’t want to understand this; but just the current data gives clear evidence that unvaccinated and/or those failing to use masks, to avoid indoor large social gatherings, etc. are the overwhelming majority of those being hospitalized.

You write: “So please, your self idolatry is a bore as is your need for social inter action for what ever reason”

WOW! And why are you posting comments. FUCKING HYPOCRITE. I am long retired sheltering in place, so i have time on my hands; but i also have over 40 years experience and knowledge/expertise besides having lived in five different nations. What do you base your comments on? How many peer-reviewed articles on COVID have you read? What level of knowledge do you have on immunology, etc. You are just one in a long line of comment posters who really don’t know what you are talking about and maybe don’t care as you get your thrills provoking others. Based on many experts, the current pandemic, if it ends and doesn’t develop an even more transmissible and severe variant will be followed by more pandemics in ever shorter time intervals. And you may live to regret your lack of support for public health. At 75 I may live to see another pandemic, perhaps much worse; but maybe I won’t???

@ Clint

I described how many died from 1918 flu; but also many did die from secondary bacterial pneumonias; but these were more severe than usual pneumonias. And given current developments in antibiotic resistance high likelihood that a major flu pandemic which would result in secondary opportunistic bacterial pneumonias may result in more deaths; but you missed the major point that I made, namely that mitigation resulted in half the deaths in cities that implemented it. You changed the subject, typical of someone dishonest like you. I was simply making the point that there is a history of using masks, closing clubs, etc. schools, practicing physical distancing, etc. And not just 1918 pandemic. So, you ignored this. And, yep, flu mainly infects with droplets while COVID aerosols, so original distancing based on droplets which travel shorter distances, don’t hang in air, etc. And if COVID mutates again, guidelines may change; but you won’t accept changes made by new data. For you, proof public health shouldn’t be paid attention to. So, either they get it right/perfect first time or just ignore them and rely on your own ignorant opinion.

Please, give us your full name and CV. I’m sure we can send it to President Biden and he will find a high ranking position for you given your immense knowledge and insights.

And once again, what does Port Huron Statement have to do with Public Health??? If one has, for instance, bacterial pneumonia, whether in Russia, Japan, Sweden, Israel, etc. all different cultures and political systems, the medical approach is the same. Unfortunately in United States more than many other nations, politics takes precedence. South Korea implemented testing, contact tracing, isolation, masks, physical distancing, etc. early on and has had very few deaths and has not had to implement longer lockdowns, same with several other nations.

It all started out as a post about the irony of this site posing the question about ‘substack’ and wanting to ban speech/writing on yet another platform and that fact that we have become the parent/authority on what can be said or done.

Who on this site has never heard a parent say to their kids, I have lived on this planet longer than you (or similar), I have been around the block more times than you, I have read more than you, I have more education than you ……..just pick your favorite parent/authoritarian saying. Then look thru Joel’s post, as riddled with tangents as they are, and make a note.

He has become the parent, with all the authoritarianism that comes with it.

Any one want to take a bet that soon he will be calling for Orac to ban me, as he has with others.

Clint, could you do yourself a favor and quote the part of the original post where Orac states that any of the mentioned posts on Substack should be “banned”? I did a text search and couldn’t find it.

I’m very sorry that you have such a bad relationship with your parents. So you know, lots of parents aren’t authoritarian. It is possible to have a structured parenting method without being authoritarian.

Just like it is possible to have regulations without being authoritarian.

@ Clint

You write: “It all started out as a post about the irony of this site posing the question about ‘substack’ and wanting to ban speech/writing on yet another platform and that fact that we have become the parent/authority on what can be said or done.”

So, one should NEVER ban any speech? Calls for violence? Extreme racism? Extreme anti-semitism? Lies calling Sandy Hook Elementary School killings fake which actually resulted in parents of murdered children being phoned and threatened? Lies telling people to ingest bleach for treating covid when bleach could actually kill them? You are lying about NO scientific evidence for non-pharmaceutical mitigation reducing covid and anti-vax; but no one calling for banning you here because other DECENT OPEN-MINDED PEOPLE refute you. The overwhelming majority of people who follow this site just see you as a bad example of the problems in our society, namely morons like you.

You write: “I have read more than you, I have more education than you ……..just pick your favorite parent/authoritarian saying. Then look thru Joel’s post, as riddled with tangents as they are, and make a note.”

So, don’t ever go to a medical doctor, after all they have devoted years to studying medicine, just treat yourself. Don’t know which skills you have; but don’t hire an electrician, plumber, auto mechanic, etc. do it all yourself. Yep, anyone and everyone who has devoted years to mastering some area of knowledge should just let your irrational unscientific moronic positions go unchallenged. As for tangents, going from Port Huron Statement to poverty to Covid mitigation measures, etc. Yep, HYPOCRITE, VERY STUPID HYPOCRITE.

You write: “Any one want to take a bet that soon he will be calling for Orac to ban me, as he has with others.”

YOU REALLY ARE FULL OF SHIT. I HAVE ONLY ASKED ORAC TO BAN A COUPLE OF COMMENTERS WHO EITHER DISPLAYED ANTI-SEMITISM OR CONTINUED WITH ABSOLUTELY EXTREME DISHONEST POSTS. THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A DISHONEST PERSON NOT WORTH BANNING BECAUSE ALMOST EVERYONE MONITORING THIS BLOG KNOWS IT

“I HAVE ONLY ASKED ORAC TO BAN A COUPLE OF COMMENTERS” spoken like a true authoritarian, do you possess any self awareness in with what you have posted.

“YOU REALLY ARE FULL OF SHIT. I HAVE ONLY ASKED ORAC TO BAN A COUPLE OF COMMENTERS WHO EITHER DISPLAYED ANTI-SEMITISM OR CONTINUED WITH ABSOLUTELY EXTREME DISHONEST POSTS. THE FACT THAT YOU ARE A DISHONEST PERSON NOT WORTH BANNING BECAUSE ALMOST EVERYONE MONITORING THIS BLOG KNOWS IT.”

You know “dad”, you yelled so loud the neighbors heard it, remember dad, this is not the 60’s when you could yell at your kids and no one would call the cops, this is 2022 and people will call the cops on you for yelling like that and probably arrest you for child abuse.

And are you going to send me to my room for the rest of the night with no supper, too.

@ Clint

Given your illogic, irrationality, hypocrisy, etc. I can only assume you have mental health problems and/or have nothing better to do that attempt to provoke people.

Oh, by the way, just for fun I found the complete Port Huron Statement and, on the whole, this would be a better world if people tried to follow much of it. Thanks for reminding me of something I read in my youth when I actually believed we could make this a better world; but given the polarization of this nation, the stupidity and misunderstanding and misuse of words socialism and communism, the long history of violence, the racism, etc. on one side vs those who actually still want to make this a better world, I am not optimistic. Just one example of the misuse of socialism, Bernie Sander’s Medicare for All. Not socialistic medicine. I lived in Sweden for almost 10 years where the hospitals, clinics, etc. were owned and run by various governments, national, county, city and medical staff on salary, socialized medicine and extremely high quality. I lived in Canada for two years where they have an incomplete single-payer system, Medicare for All, hospitals independent non-profits, doctors in private practice, etc. Incomplete because dental, out-patient drugs, home health care, and nursing homes not included, though various Provinces do have such coverage for some; e.g., dental for kids, out-patient drugs; but they negotiate drug prices so much cheaper than here. Under Bernie Sander’s Medicare for All the 30 cents on the dollar that goes to bloated bureacracies, profits, and outrageous CEO salaries will go to health care, more than enough to cover everyone. And doctors will be able to devote far more time to patients than dealing with insurance companies, etc. And, yep, I have taken grad courses in Health Economics, and read tons on various health care systems around the world and international comparative studies and kept in contact with friends in Canada, Sweden, UK; but many have now unfortunately passed.

In any case, I’m sure what I wrote is not of interest to you. It does sound like you had a very unhappy childhood and whatever your current age, just keep reliving it. Oh well.

Do you possess the required educational back ground and have a current license to preform psychoanalysis me? “I can only assume you have mental health problems”? I do have a dislike for pompous, arrogant, authoritarian, wind bags. As to my childhood “it does sound like you had a very unhappy childhood” , again do you have a license to preform psychoanalysis? from the 10-15 or so paragraphs I posted. Actually I had a very happy childhood, we lived on a farm with my bothers and sisters, mom and dad.

I posted the original information about the Port Huron statement on the 19th of January including a link to the original ‘manifesto/platform

for the next 36 hours, you posted tangent filled screeds and made snide comments about it (claiming it had no impact or that nobody followed it etc) Joel wrote “So, he wrote a paper. What percentage of population followed what it called for?” I am surprised that none of your friends that were in the SDS hadn’t told you about it.

Joel posted on the 22 jan at 0914 hrs.
“Oh, by the way, just for fun I found the complete Port Huron Statement”

Well given that I posted a link to the original on the 19th and it now the 22nd, I bet that was really hard for you to accomplish given how much you repeatedly tell us how well educated and well read you are, It appears you make comments without having read the materials, something a closed minded, authoritarian would do and by dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as a mental case.

PS since you yelled at me and sent me to my room with out supper, mom brought me supper, we laughed about it, she claims that since you have no friends you take out your frustration on us.

@ Clint

You write: “Joel posted on the 22 jan at 0914 hrs.
“Oh, by the way, just for fun I found the complete Port Huron Statement”

Well given that I posted a link to the original on the 19th and it now the 22nd, I bet that was really hard for you to accomplish given how much you repeatedly tell us how well educated and well read you are, It appears you make comments without having read the materials, something a closed minded, authoritarian would do and by dismissing everyone who disagrees with you as a mental case.”

I based my replies on what you posted from the Port Huron Statement and your other comments. And finally reading the entire Post Huron Statement didn’t change its basic message. And it isn’t your disagreeing with me but your going from Port Huron to poor people to mitigation, etc. that I base my opinion of you on. It isn’t authoritarian to rely on science when someone else makes comments that are irrational, unscientific, etc. And it is you who keeps up with the being sent to bed, etc. so one can wonder why this fixation???

You write: “As to my childhood “it does sound like you had a very unhappy childhood” , again do you have a license to preform psychoanalysis? from the 10-15 or so paragraphs I posted. Actually I had a very happy childhood, we lived on a farm with my bothers and sisters, mom and dad.”

You really are STUPID. Saying “it does sound like” is not a diagnosis, just a perception. People do make perceptions. However, in Sweden becoming a researcher and becoming a license clinical psychologist were two separate lines, so I took ALL the courses in both, did all the practicum, etc and one year internship in cities main psychiatric clinic and became licensed clinical psychologist. But I didn’t make a diagnosis, just an impression, something most normal people do from time to time. And what planet are you from? Psychoanalysis is not scientific psychology and, though still exists, not what most informed people would base anything on.

However, I will also offer one more possibility. Growing up on a farm means your experiences different from many who grew up in communities, often dense communities. So you do not understand that in communities one has to balance rights with responsibilities.

You write: “PS since you yelled at me and sent me to my room with out supper, mom brought me supper, we laughed about it, she claims that since you have no friends you take out your frustration on us.”

So, you continue with the being sent to your room. As for my having no friends. Almost none that I can interact with; but still keep in contact with about 15 by e-mail and a few by phone, many live in Sweden, phone calls expensive. In fact, received an e-mail 10 days ago from a friend who first met August 1979 and just spoke this morning with friend who met in 1985. And over Xmas an e-mail from a friend who met June 1971. However, all of my childhood friends have died. In September 2019 my oldest and closest friend died, 63 years from the month we met in 5th grade. I only have two friends still alive in my home town, one who I see occasionally. He comes over with his dog, who plays with my dog while we sit in backyard and another who I first met June 1982. He lives quite a distance and we usually met for lunch; but haven’t during the pandemic; but probably will in next couple of weeks.

So, once more it is you who make the crazy statements about being sent to room. It is you who hypocritically claims I change subjects; yet bring in all kinds of contradictory ones. Yep, one time I used an analogy; but you are just too plain stupid to understand analogies. And on and on it goes. It is you who claim I have no friends, who questions even if I had a roommate in college who was President of local chapter of SDS.

Are you having fun making an absolute fool of yourself???

Some commenters, though wrong, at least make semi-reasonable arguments; but you . . .

Mask Authoritarianism in the name of public health leads to this.

facebook.com/photo/?fbid=246620234320913&set=a.187906490192288

@ Clint

You have worn out your welcome. Linking to one thing doesn’t prove anything; but, given just how stupid irrational hypocritical dishonest and childish you are, what more could one expect of you. As I have written, one can find webpages for neo-Nazis, anti-semites, racists, and even those who don’t believe in germs, so what?

Oh, and I forgot, one more old friend who I’ve known since 1985 lives about 80 miles north of me. We used to drive half way to meet for lunch; but since pandemic speak often in phone.

Authoritarians are never wrong.

Joel you lived with the president of the campus SDS yet didn’t know about the Port Huron Statement?
I lived on a farm that’s why I love freedom, had I grown up in a city I wouldn’t know of the problems of rural people, not matter where I lived I would have been wrong, you are always right a true authoritarian.

“It isn’t authoritarian to rely on science.” but what if the science is wrong (the science does change and is frequently wrong). think of all the things that were done because someone said science said, it but has since been proven wrong/ineffective.
And if you enforce the science like that teacher did, its authoritarian.

And back to my original post, you are now the authoritarians you once disliked/hated.

@ Clint

You write: “Joel you lived with the president of the campus SDS yet didn’t know about the Port Huron Statement?”

Where did I write in any comment I didn’t know about the Port Huron Statement? YOU LYING FUCKING ASSHOLE. Yep, I knew about it when it first came out and also in various history books I have read; but I didn’t remember every detail, just the general points, which is why I downloaded an read the entire statement. And I admit, didn’t need to search for it, just cut and pasted your link. So, found it without any effort thanks to you.

You write: ““It isn’t authoritarian to rely on science.” but what if the science is wrong (the science does change and is frequently wrong). think of all the things that were done because someone said science said, it but has since been proven wrong/ineffective.
And if you enforce the science like that teacher did, its authoritarian.”

NOPE! Historically science findings have been sometimes found to be wrong; but partly because of older methodologies, etc. Maybe you haven’t heard of the Genome Project, of electronic microscopes, of PCR, of multiple peer-reviewed journals, so, scientific knowledge formed in the past couple of decades has a much stronger base than many years ago. Is it still possible that some findings will later be found wrong? Yep; but seldom and if we rely on morons like you and do nothing the odds are extremely high, e.g., our current pandemic, that many many more people will suffer and die. So, ASSHOLE, science and history developed quarantine for highly infectious, deadly diseases, is that authoritarian? Science says that drinking and driving increases risks for car crashes, etc. Having laws against drinking and driving, is that authoritarian? Science finds that tobacco use harms health, not only the user; but those around. So banning smoking indoors, etc. is that authoritarian? Maybe we should allow teachers to light up in their elementary school classes? And COVID vaccines and using masks, etc. not only reduce risk to others; but to those vaccinated, using masks, etc. If they don’t, they flood our hospitals resulting in burn-out for hospital personnel, reduced ability to treat people with other problems, etc.

You write: “Authoritarians are never wrong. . . I lived on a farm that’s why I love freedom, had I grown up in a city I wouldn’t know of the problems of rural people, not matter where I lived I would have been wrong, you are always right a true authoritarian.”

First, it isn’t authoritarian to believe in community and that rights are balanced with responsibilities. Second, moron, neither I nor CDC can implement anything without support from elected officials. And once more, it isn’t authoritarian to implemented measures that protect people, even if ASSHOLES like you think freedom is an absolute.

I held back using ASSHOLE; but it so applies to you, your absolutist stance on freedom, your equating public health with authoritarianism, your lying and twisting what I write. As for the problems of rural people, one is closing of hospitals and other access to medical care which I am highly aware of. If we weren’t the only nation on the planet where health care paid for by taxes but then turned over to a for-profit system, we could more fairly allocate funds to help ALL people in this nation. Approximately 30 cents of every dollar goes to excess administration, profits, and obscene CEO salaries.

YOU REALLY ARE A SICK INDIVIDUAL WHO DOESN’T UNDERSTAND SCIENCE, ESPECIALLY DOESN’T UNDERSTAND IMMUNOLOGY, VACCINOLOGY, HISTORY OF PANDEMICS, ETC.; BUT ANYTHING THAT DOESN’T FIT YOUR IGNORANT WORLD VIEW IS AUTHORITARIAN.

Oh, I have had friends, now passed, who grew up on farms; but I met them at university or worked with them, some doctors, nurses, etc. and their attitudes towards public health and science were 180 degrees opposite yours. Growing up on a farm doesn’t mean lack of awareness of the outside world, except in sick cases like you.

Do you not have an internet search engine……

“Linking to one thing doesn’t prove anything;”

msn.com/en-us/news/crime/dunkin-customer-doused-with-hot-coffee-for-not-wearing-mask/ar-AAT10FKaustrialian man

nypost.com/2021/08/04/man-has-heart-attack-while-cuffed-for-not-wearing-mask-report/

shorenewsnetwork.com/2021/09/27/man-arrested-in-melbourne-park-for-not-wearing-facemask-and-having-no-reason-to-be-there/

legalinsurrection.com/2021/09/australia-covid-madness-continues-melbourne-man-arrested-for-not-wearing-a-face-mask/

rumble.com/vn0tdl-australian-police-violently-arrest-couple-for-not-wearing-masks.html

summit.news/2020/09/09/australia-corona-cops-arrest-grandma-sitting-in-park-for-not-wearing-a-mask/

toofab.com/2020/08/11/australian-police-choke-woman-not-wearing-mask/

thenewamerican.com/sydney-father-handcuffed-in-front-of-two-year-old-daughter-for-not-wearing-mask/

https://fox8.com/news/coronavirus/video-shows-fight-breaking-out-after-woman-throws-coffee-at-man-not-wearing-mask/

nypost.com/2020/07/26/woman-maces-couple-for-not-wearing-masks-at-california-dog-park-video/

rightjournalism.com/video-man-arrested-by-mask-less-cops-because-his-son-wasnt-wearing-a-mask-in-costco/

theleoterrell.com/shocking-video-australian-police-arrest-pepper-spray-12-year-old-for-food-shopping-without-mask/

ksnt.com/news/national/video-shows-woman-smack-unmasked-passenger-on-delta-flight/

nypost.com/2020/09/24/woman-tased-arrested-for-not-wearing-mask-at-football-game/

realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/07/18/watch_australian_police_pepper_spray_12-year-old_during_fight_over_mask_mandate.html#!

and U-tube now deletes any videos of children being arrested for violation of mask mandate.

“Linking to one thing doesn’t prove anything” so how about 15 if you want more my search engine shows about 4,000 violent acts by police for people not wearing masks OUTSIDE.

Just a few examples of your brand of “Authoritarianism”.

@ Clint

You write: “And back to my original post, you are now the authoritarians you once disliked/hated.”

And how many people are arrested in US for drinking and driving? How many black people are assaulted by white people, by police? The fact that in a world of 7 billion people you can come up with a dozen examples doesn’t say whether mask mandates work or not? We have laws against drunken driving; yet people still do it, does that mean the laws are wrong? Are laws against drunken driving authoritarian? Well, maybe yes; but doesn’t prove those who wrote them are in general authoritarians. Means sometimes some laws, rules, mandates are called for.

So, according to you because I believe in public health, believe in the underlying science that I am an authoritarian. However, I also support Black Lives Matters and teaching of critical race theory. I oppose the death penalty and many of our criminal laws. From my late teens I opposed laws against homosexuality, interracial marriages, drugs usage. I have NEVER used drugs, NEVER smoked, and would love if nobody did; but criminalizing drug use/possession is wrong, just an excuse to give power to police. If driving a vehicle, yep. If giving or selling to minors, yep; but if an adult chooses to use any drug, I support paying taxes to offer treatment; but not coerced treatment. And I have supported the ERA since it beginning. I also support using our tax monies to help our fellow human beings, e.g., universal non-profit health care, free education, housing allowances, etc rather than going to corporations and super wealthy. I have opposed every U.S. military action; but if had been alive on December 7, 1941 would have enlisted immediately. I’m not against military defending a nation; but as I wrote above, we use our military to benefit corporations, etc.

But overwhelming scientific evidence says that masks protect not just the wearer but innocent third parties, so, as opposed to ignorant ASSHOLES like you, I support mask usage. One can make exceptions if someone truly has breathing problems; but only if valid. When life, limb, sight, etc are at risk, then I support laws, mandates, etc. What do ASSHOLES like you do?

Interesting that you have so much time on your hands to find examples and give links.

You write: “Authoritarians are never wrong.”

And ASSHOLE, does that mean anyone you disagree with is wrong; but you never are?????

No admitting that you lied about me claiming I didn’t know the Port Huron Statement? How about claiming I said science always right? Yep, I said nowadays science most often correct, plus sometimes we just have to act based on current science. If we had not acted, almost all scientists believe the number of dead in U.S. would easily have topped two million; but you could care less; but I did write that rarely it can develop that some scientific finding was wrong.

For ASSHOLE ALL OR NONE MORONS LIKE YOU, SCIENCE, PUBLIC HEALTH, ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH IS AUTHORITARIAN. ARE YOU OBSESSED WITH THE WORD???

“So, he wrote a paper. What percentage of population followed what it called for?”

“Oh, by the way, just for fun I found the complete Port Huron Statement and, on the whole, this would be a better world if people tried to follow much of it”

It’s obvious by those two post that you hadn’t read the SDS platform/manifesto until my post.

Then you double down and said.

“Yep, I knew about it when it first came out”
So given your age now and it came out in 1962 you were what 12-15 years old and haven’t you claimed you spent your youth in Sweden?

“your lying and twisting what I write”
I just cut and paste what you write, and do a little fact check.

“NOPE! Historically science findings have been sometimes found to be wrong; but partly because of older methodologies, etc.”

Most of the modern anti-vax movement was based on bad/terribly wrong science(the Wakefield study that was peer reviewed and published) and not retracted for almost 10 years. The CDC guidance, on mask wearing was based on a study in India, that was actually rejected by peer review.
The CDC changed guidance on quarantining based on economics, not science.

You post off the wall statements or tangents, then when those fail to work, you resort to name calling and yelling in an effort to intimidate, which shows how shallow your thinking is and that you don’t have the courage of your convictions.

It is easy for someone who doesn’t care about other people, to sit around and do nothing all day, because they can ‘SHELTER IN PLACE”as you have stated you do, but someone has to produce everything you consume, be it your water that you drink (someone has to maintain the system), the clothes you wear (someone has to drill the oil/process the cotton and make the clothes and ship the clothes and sell the clothes) , the electricity to run your computer (they have to produce the oil/coal/hydro/solar panels and maintain the electric grid) and all the food you eat (plant the seeds, harvest, bake the bread, process the animals, package the food and stock the shelves). You live a life of privilege, and still you demand that those people that provide for your very existence, even the money you spend is produced by other people, yet you feel the need to dictate and mandate how they live.

You are a self centered, authoritarian, narcissist.

Wait wait wait, I’m confused here Clint.
You’re really, really upset about the existence of mask mandates and call them authoritarian.
But you’re also really, really upset about “lockdowns” (none happening in the US now, but we’ll let that go for the moment), and also call them authoritarian.

So far this makes sense.

But now you’re super mad at Joel that not everyone can “shelter in place” and that these people are at risk of exposure to COVID, and call that authoritarian (don’t see that connection).

Isn’t the mask mandate to protect the people who can’t work from home or shelter in place? Isn’t wearing a mask in public or in the workplace a way of showing other people that you care about their health and safety as well as your own? So how is it “authoritarian” for businesses to require mask wearing for both employees and customers?

I’m very confused.

I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of Joel and his ability to shelter in place while demanding others produce goods for him and expose themselves, while he lives a privileged life. And I am not mad a Joel never was, I just don’t care for hypocrites. I do feel sorry for him on so many levels.

As to your point of ‘lockdown’ i will refer you to Joels post.

“By the way, the YMCA I went to almost daily for swimming, weight-lifting, and stationary bike, went on lockdown,”

Bars, restaurants, gyms, movie making, Broadway, schools, can go to parks, can’t even be outside etc. all shut down, what would you call it.
And you said it best,

” Isn’t wearing a mask in public or in the workplace a way of showing other people that you care about their health and safety as well as your own?”

Because now even the CDC and others say that cloth mask don’t work and are just decorations, your statement is about window dressing and virtue signalling not actual solutions

@Clint:
At least where I live, the first city in the US to get COVID, we never shut down people’s ability to go outside. The only part of the parks that were closed were the bathrooms because the parks department didn’t have enough staff to keep the bathrooms clean.
Yes, for a while there were a lot of things that weren’t open. But they’re all open now. They’ve been open for months. Movie theaters, museums, restaurants, gyms, theaters. Some schools are virtual right this second, but that is because too many teachers are out sick (with COVID).

As for masks: You may have missed this, but the recommendation to switch from cloth to blown-plastic masks is because the omicron variant is more infectious, not because the cloth masks didn’t work against previous variants.

So no, wearing cloth masks is not “window dressing” or “virtue signaling”. Wearing cloth masks is still better than no mask. It is just not as good as the KN95, KF94 and N95 masks at protecting against the spread of omicron.

So let’s talk about “actual solutions”. You don’t want masks, you don’t want a vaccine mandate, you don’t want any restrictions on how people gather. So what solutions does that leave?

“what solutions does that leave?”

Ignorance, denial, fabrication and misdirection: the 4 pantomime horsemen of self-righteousness.

I follow both Alex Jones’ & Mike Adams’ cesspool web pages for entertainment and they are the absolute best source to keep up with the dodgy anti-vax cadre but it’s increasingly hard to keep up! Saw a new one yesterday, “Dr.” (PhD from an online source) Gina Loudon.

@ Clint

You write: “It’s obvious by those two post that you hadn’t read the SDS platform/manifesto until my post.”

You are a FUCKIN MORON. Yep, I read it around 60 years ago; but, maybe you are capable of memorizing a 10 page document and holding that memory for so many years; but, unfortunately, not me.

You write: ““Yep, I knew about it when it first came out”
So given your age now and it came out in 1962 you were what 12-15 years old and haven’t you claimed you spent your youth in Sweden?”

I entered college in 1964, SDS was often in the news, so, OK, learned about it two years later. One more example of your nitpicking to actually avoid a point. And my roommate my junior year was president of local chapter of SDS, so by then I was 19. And I moved to Sweden in Fall 1970 when I was 23 years old, lived there to March 1975, then visited family and travelled, including teaching conversational English in Tokyo, then back to Sweden 1979 and returned to states, reluctantly but because my family needed me closer, in late 1983.

You write: “Most of the modern anti-vax movement was based on bad/terribly wrong science(the Wakefield study that was peer reviewed and published) and not retracted for almost 10 years. The CDC guidance, on mask wearing was based on a study in India, that was actually rejected by peer review.
The CDC changed guidance on quarantining based on economics, not science.”

While Wakefield’s article wasn’t officially retracted, it was torn to shreds by dozens of other peer-reviewed papers and newspaper articles, including Brian Deer’s series in Sunday Times 2004. So, the vast majority of people should have been aware of this.

Actually “The decision by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to recommend masks for those who have been vaccinated against COVID-19 was seemingly made using a single study from India, which did not include data from vaccines approved for use in the U.S. by the Food and Drug Administration.”

So ASSHOLE not masks in general; but only for those already vaccinated and more studies have been produced that confirm using masks even for those vaccinated beneficial. Yep, chances are they give off far fewer viruses; but still could put others at risk and since we don’t live in perfect world, even some vaccinated can become infected and even develop serious illness. Probability low; but not zero.

Yep, to some extent politics pressured CDC to base quarantining on economics, not science. So, if results more serious cases, more hospitalizations, etc. OK by you? In other nations, politicians because public trusts public health go along more often with public health recommendations. In US we have too many ASSHOLES like you who have rights; but not responsibilities, basically little to no sense of community.

I am currently finishing fourth book on pandemic, each giving different perspectives on what went wrong (see below for list). Current one: Scott Gottlieb (2021) “Uncontrolled Spread: Why COVID-19 Crushed Us and How We Can Defeat the Next Pandemic” makes a strong case for why we weren’t prepared, as do all the others. And he gives detailed comparisons with nations, e.g., South Korea, that had first cases; but were prepared and acted. Preparations included capacity to produce rapidly testing kits, labs to analyze, public health employees to trace and isolate, etc. End result, almost no lockdowns or disruption to economic life. They did include masks, physical distancing, closing of bars; and some working from home. Explain ASSHOLE why, on a per capita basis, we, claiming to be the wealthiest most powerful nation on the planet, on a per capita basis, have on of the highest death rates, hospitalization rates, among technologically advanced nations???

You write: “You post off the wall statements or tangents, then when those fail to work, you resort to name calling and yelling in an effort to intimidate, which shows how shallow your thinking is and that you don’t have the courage of your convictions.”

I have made clear arguments; but you ignore, you are an IGNORANT, DESPICABLE ASSHOLE. If you responded in a logical rational manner, I wouldn’t need to refer to you by negative superlatives; but they are appropriate. Yep, my thinking is “shallow” only based on 40 years knowledge of infectious diseases and vaccines and following current pandemic since beginning, reading over 1,000 peer-reviewed papers and reports, which my training allows me to completely understand. As for the courage of my convictions, among other things I was volunteer in Moderna Covid vaccine clinical trials, got the two-doses of the vaccine, and later the booster and from beginning of pandemic when out in public have worn mask and practiced physical distancing. I CAN’T REPEAT IT ENOUGH, YOU ARE A MORONIC ASSHOLE.

By the way, the YMCA I went to almost daily for swimming, weight-lifting, and stationary bike, went on lockdown, so I bought a stationary bike and some weights and continued to walk my dog a mile twice daily. Found a gym close by which has good ventilation and mid-morning few people, so can walk there and do more weights; but will wear N95 mask and bring, though they have, own bottle of Lysol and cloth to wipe machines down. I am also looking if I can get 2nd booster. The YMCA I went to for many years has re-opened; but it is 20 minute drive each direction and I don’t think I want to start swimming again (1500 years free-style, good form, medium speed), just three days per week weight-lifting and using stair machine and rest of days my stationary bike.

You write: “It is easy for someone who doesn’t care about other people, to sit around and do nothing all day, because they can ‘SHELTER IN PLACE”as you have stated you do, but someone has to produce everything you consume, be it your water that you drink (someone has to maintain the system), the clothes you wear (someone has to drill the oil/process the cotton and make the clothes and ship the clothes and sell the clothes) , the electricity to run your computer (they have to produce the oil/coal/hydro/solar panels and maintain the electric grid) and all the food you eat (plant the seeds, harvest, bake the bread, process the animals, package the food and stock the shelves). You live a life of privilege, and still you demand that those people that provide for your very existence, even the money you spend is produced by other people, yet you feel the need to dictate and mandate how they live.”

I am quite aware of the above. As I wrote, in the beginning of the pandemic many corporations, etc didn’t even attempt to protect their workers, so many were the first to die. It took government mandates to require masks, physical distancing, improved ventilation, etc. So, you would prefer that the rates of essential workers sickening and dying continue rather than any mandates such as the above? After all, if corporations and farms can make larger profits, then, though not all, some could care less about the welfare of their workers. Agricultural workers really suffered early on. So, based on science, 40 years of experience and learning, current research, etc. not shallow thinking; but actually caring about the welfare of those who do supply my needs.

You write: “You are a self centered, authoritarian, narcissist.”

JUST HOW STUPID ARE YOU??? How is wanting to protect essential workers being self-centered and a narcissist?

As for authoritarian, there is a good article in the Atlantic Monthly that discusses government laws/mandates; e.g., drinking and driving, maintain tire tread, not smoking in public places, etc. You should read it: Jonathan Wolff (2022 Jan 17). The COVID-Risk Social Contract Is Under Negotiation. The Atlantic

You haven’t, as usual, addressed anything I said, e.g., should we abandon laws about smoking in public places, should we abandon laws on drinking and driving, speeding, etc.??? After all, in your opinion, anything that interferes with individual is authoritarian and wrong.

Books on Current Pandemic:

Burleigh, Nina (2021 May). Virus: Vaccinations, the CDC, and the Hijacking of Americas Response to the Pandemic.

Gottlieb, Scott (2021). Uncontrolled Spread: Why COVID-19 Crushed Us and How We Can Defeat the Next Pandemic.

Horton, Richard (2020 Jun). The COVID-19 Catastrophe – What’s Gone Wrong and How To Stop It Happening Again.

Lewis, Michael (2021 May). The Premonition: A Pandemic Story.

MacKenzie, Debora (2020 Jul). COVID-19: The Pandemic that Never Should Have Happened and How to Stop the Next One.

Taylor, Steven (2019). The Psychology of Pandemics: Preparing for the Next Global Outbreak of Infectious Disease.

@ Chris

You write: “It is easy for someone who doesn’t care about other people”

Yep, don’t care; however, every four weeks drive to blood center and donate one unit plasma and one unit platelets and every eight weeks also one unit red blood cells, needle in arm about 1 hr 20 minute and usually really dehydrated and tired rest of day, drink lots of water. Prior to pandemic just donated whole blood several times a year for 45 years. I also at outbreak of pandemic phoned several food banks and offered to volunteer; but they didn’t want someone my age. Called later on after vaccinated, they said they would phone if they need me. I may phone a few again.

Yep, I don’t care about other people, so why do I donate blood and offer to work at food banks? Oh, because once in a while blood bank gives us a nice t-shirt. And occasionally offer, for instance, $50 Amazon gift card or choice to give back for them to buy additional equipment. I always chose the latter.

GO TO HELL!

The name is Clint not Chris (you can’t even get that correct).

So here we have a couple of authoritarians who are yelling at a BLACK MAN, the women then strike/hit him at least two times while yelling ‘BLACK LIVES MATTER’, one of the authoritarians pulled down her mask to yell at the young man. both women order the black man to get out of the elevator (he was already in the elevator when they got on), obviously they didn’t have to good sense to NOT get on the elevator themselves when they saw the unmasked person, but demand a second class citizen (in their eyes) to get off.
This ‘MADNESS’ is what you have spawned with your authoritarianism mask wearing,

twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1485694028620316673

“You really are IGNORANT. If someone was shot with a gun and bacteria that were antibiotic resistant entered their body and though surgeons could remove bullet and stem bleeding they died from infection I guess you would say gun shot had nothing to do with it.”

You have your story backwards. Since the beginning of the Covid virus, the CDC/government has classified anyone who dies with a positive test for Covid or had symptoms of Covid is classified as a Covid death.

“Brix says government is classifying ALL deaths of patients WITH coronavirus as “covid-19 deaths regardless of cause.”

foxnews.com/politics/birx-says-government-is-classifying-all-deaths-of-patients-with-coronavirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause

Even the CDC claims we are over counting Covid both hospitalizations and deaths. The issue they are having is how to unwind the numbers, without further damage their credibility.

CNN’s Jake Tapper says, “”We’re 2 years into this … if somebody’s in the hospital with a broken leg and they also have asymptomatic COVID, that should not be counted as hospitalized with covid, clearly.”

or the state of Washington counting gunshot/car accidents as covid deaths
“We currently do have some deaths that are being reported that are clearly from other causes,” Dr. Hutchison admits. “We have about five deaths, less than five deaths, that we know of that are related to obvious other causes. In this case, they are from gunshot wounds.”
“Our dashboard numbers do include any death to a person that has tested positive to COVID-19.” that was early on and their record keeping has not gotten better.

Until the government that is responsible for accuracy in the collection of data on covid, can produce accurate statistics on what/why/when/how etc. The virus will control their actions and they will continue to give misleading or bad advice.

You of course did not refute what I posted, and resorted to name calling (because that’s all you have) and only boosted what an “angel on earth” you are, failing to admit how many lives you put in harms way so you could stay safe.

@ Clint

Oops! So many ASSHOLES have been posting comments that I used the wrong name. I have been thinking of contacting Orac and asking if I named the 10 biggest ASSHOLES, that is, commenters who clearly are DISHONEST, IRRATIONAL, SCIENTIFICALLY IGNORANT, HYPOCRITICAL, ETC if, at some time, we could have a vote for which one should get first place. While I can’t guarantee you will win, I assure you that you will be in the running.

And, of course, we could have separate votes on several categories. In that case, I’m confident you would get first place on one of the categories.

@ Clint

I have NEVER denied that the number of covid cases has been overcounted; but given just how stupid you are you don’t realize that during the pandemic the vast majority of those coming to emergency clinics at hospitals were with covid symptoms. The hospitals were so overwhelmed that only things like car accidents, gun shot wounds, etc. were taken. So, yep, I would bet that covid cases were overcounted by as much as 20%; but also ASSHOLE, not every hospital did this and as the CDC has developed better tracking, less of a problem today. And what you fail to also understand is that some covid cases were undercounted. If someone with a heart condition died at home or someone with cancer, etc. they were often taken to morgue, not to hospitals and no covid tests run. And someone with a heart condition can live years if watch diet, quit smoking, do moderate exercise; e.g, walk. But covid would kill them, so, yep, if covid shortened their lives; but they died at home, undercounted. Same with cancer, may have lived 6 months, a year . . . Of course you could care less if someone’s life was shortened; but their loved ones may differ.

I suggest you start off by reading: Gottlieb, Scott (2021). Uncontrolled Spread: Why COVID-19 Crushed Us and How We Can Defeat the Next Pandemic

He does an excellent job of explaining many of the problems we have had in U.S. because of poor funding, etc. and how other nations have done much better, then read the other books I listed above.

We don’t live in a perfect world and the U.S. has underfunded public health for decades with brief funding spurts after some major outbreak; but not continued. However, other nations have much better approaches/institutions for collecting health data and covid deaths much more accurate. 100%, nope; but much closer. So, you ignore the covid deaths around the world. You are either really STUPID and/or DISHONEST, probably some combination

“You really are IGNORANT. If someone was shot with a gun and bacteria that were antibiotic resistant entered their body and though surgeons could remove bullet and stem bleeding they died from infection I guess you would say gun shot had nothing to do with it.”

But you kind of slow walked in to admitting it “I have NEVER denied that the number of covid cases has been overcounted; ”

But I am IGNORANT, nice projection by you

Bad statistic (in collection and analyzing) will lead to bad decisions. you of all people should know that, If the CDC was underfunded and not up to the job of collecting information then Dr. Fauci should have stated that up front and been honest and stated that during his last 30 plus years.

“I have been thinking of contacting Orac and asking if I named the 10 biggest ASSHOLES, that is, commenters who clearly are DISHONEST, IRRATIONAL, SCIENTIFICALLY IGNORANT, HYPOCRITICAL, ETC if,”

Be careful what you ask for, you would probably be in the top ten on at least three of your categories.

I do find it amusing that this whole post

“Substack: The new wretched hive of scum and quackery”

Is based on Star Wars movie line, and ‘hive of scum and villainy” that was used to describe the city of Mos Eisley the city that was crucial in helping get the vital information to the rebels and the ultimate conquest of the “Empire” or ‘New Order”, the Empire was a fascist dictatorship that had replaced a republic. and not one of the over 100 comments has mentioned that the “hive of scum and villainy’ was on the good guys side.

Did you ever watch Star Wars? It’s just that your comment reads like someone who only ever read a summary.

You’ll never bullseye romp rats with that kind of lackadaisical attitude.

So my readers digest version of ‘Star Wars” is in accurate?
luke and company go to Mos Eisley, hire a smuggler (Hans) to get them off of the planet, turn the stolen plans over to the rebels, destroy the death star, ultimately leading to the death of the emperor, restoring democracy, all because Mos Eisley was the home to “hive of scum and villainy”.
Please tell us in under 100 words the story of star wars trilogy, that is different?

Clint- yet another astounding, insightfull declaration – that Joel leads a privileged life, and that after having a full, long working life. To think that I mistakenly always thought that after a long working life the individual had earned his/her retirement. Also your empathy in feeling sorry for Joel on so many levels is yet another merit to your already numerous credits. My sycophancy to your person is not misplaced. Extraordinary.

@ Clint

You write: “Bad statistic (in collection and analyzing) will lead to bad decisions. you of all people should know that,”

Overcounting is NOT necessarily bad statistics. Besides hospitalized with covid, we have stats based on number of deaths going back years, both by months, seasons, etc. so if all of a sudden we have far more deaths compared to previous months and previous years and covid-19 the only factor that is different, then we either act or don’t act. Of course, ASSHOLES like you would want absolute certainty, which would have resulted in far far more deaths. In addition, even those hospitalized for other conditions found “with” covid, the covid could have been reason they were hospitalized. For instance, someone with congestive heart failure who may have lived much longer, infected with covid, the straw that broke the camels back. Collecting data is always a problem; but much more so in U.S. because of underfunding, not having universal health care system, so some hospitals report regularly, others don’t, etc, not one nation; but numerous political entities, States, Counties, etc. different levels of funding, etc.; but, as I explained and you in your STUPIDITY AND DISHONESTY ignore, we have data from a number of other nations with top quality health data systems. But in the real world no system will be 100% accurate. You just ignore what I write and then attack based on your incredible STUPIDITY AND DISHONESTY.

One interesting article on COVID hospital data:

Samantha Putterman (2022 Jan 18). Hospitalization data is being used to claim that the pandemic is overblown. Here’s why that’s wrong .PolitiFact

Read it ASSHOLE! Or just critique the source as if that automatically negates anything in the paper.

Note. I’ve collected a number of papers on “over counting” and they give quite a range, up to 50%; but even 50% would mean a hell of a lot of premature deaths and hospitalizations; but . . other papers less.

Why are you so certain you are right? Do you understand immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, infectious diseases, especially viruses? What is your level of education, your profession??? You lied about me claiming absolute certainty about science; but I base my reliance on science on over 40 years, including three graduate courses in Philosophy of Science, basically how we know we know. And, though retired, I keep in touch with a dwindling number of collegial friends who are active researchers and, believe it or not, they sometimes ask my advice on various aspects of projects they are working on.

You write: “If the CDC was underfunded and not up to the job of collecting information then Dr. Fauci should have stated that up front and been honest and stated that during his last 30 plus years.”

First, heads of NIH and CDC have testified before Congress on this going back decades. Second, Fauci probably has either in Congressional testimony or otherwise pushed for more funding; but how do we know they are underfunded and how do we know about over counting? Because various experts inside and outside government have said so. Not a secret, except from IDIOTS like you.

YOU JUST KEEP PROVING WHAT A STUPID DISHONEST ASSHOLE YOU ARE! ! !

Joel

I will have to admit now, that I do not know what the actual number of hospitalizations
or deaths FROM covid or WITH covid are, but then neither do you I just have the good sense to ask questions that you don’t ask or really don’t want to know the answer. I don’t ask for exact numbers but the CDC or public health people can’t even get a few thousand cases close.

And you know what the really sad and terrible thing about this is? Neither do the people at the CDC who are suppose to be collecting the data and making public policy and issuing guidance !

And per your article,

“It’s also important to take these numbers lightly because hospitals vary in how they define “incidental”, said Dr. Jeanne Noble, an associate professor of emergency medicine at the University of California, San Francisco.

There is substantial variation in the proportion of COVID hospitalizations that are categorized as incidental — from 30% to 70% — because there is not an agreed upon definition for hospitalization ‘with COVID’ versus hospitalization ‘for COVID’.”

I am not certain that I am right or wrong, the real problem is those in charge of the pandemic have no idea if they are right or wrong. When the head of the agency in charge of the guidance on covid can’t even answer a simple questions like how many people have died OF covid. A 30-70% is a very large spread.

news.yahoo.com/walensky-dodges-many-u-covid-171416244.html

theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/09/covid-hospitalization-numbers-can-be-misleading/620062/

and even CNN has questions

cnn.com/2022/01/07/politics/rochelle-walensky-cdc-communications-covid-19/index.html

” within the CDC have also grown increasingly frustrated with Walensky’s handling of public health guidance, a CDC scientist told CNN. According to the scientist, Walensky largely crafted the new guidance with the help of a small circle of top advisers, eschewing the traditional process of rigorous scientific vetting by experts at the CDC who would in turn also consult with outside public health partners and experts.

At the same time, between Walensky circumventing some of the CDC’s rigorous vetting processes for new guidelines and the public criticism, morale at the public health agency is sinking.”

You claim I don’t read the material you post, did you watch the twitter video of the two mask women who assaulted a black man or any of the videos of other mask people assaulting people for not wearing a mask out side, I would guess not. And you use a former commissioner of the FDA and now a board member of …….. Pfizer for support. Would you use a HHS administrator that went to work for the tobacco lobby or an EPA/DOE administrator that went to work for big oil.

But you are certain I am wrong and now you will call me a bunch of names and claim I am dishonest because I quoted your cite, that you claimed supported your position.

@ Clint

Just how STUPID are you? First, I have said several times I am aware that the numbers aren’t accurate; but I also have followed the stats from around the world and know that some other nations have much better organized health statistics collections. AND moron, you missed the key point that we have overall death stats for entire nation by months and years and can compare. Quite simply the number of deaths since January 2020 have been much much higher than comparative times. Add this to the statistics from around the world and with high certainty covid responsible for the vast majority.

In addition, you have given NO indication you understand viruses, infectious diseases, immunology, epidemiology, history of pandemics, etc. which I do.

You write: “But you are certain I am wrong and now you will call me a bunch of names and claim I am dishonest”

Yep, dishonest. You went from Port Huron to poor to covid. You claimed that I said I had never even heard of Port Huron. And on and on it goes. You don’t believe in public health measures, e.g., masks, physical distancing as if they are such major invasions of your independence. You have made it clear that since majority of deaths are older and/or with several comorbidites that doesn’t matter that their lives were cut short. You indicate absolutely NO understanding that in communities we have both rights and obligations. And you ignore that nations that implemented systematically various mitigation strategies have had far fewer deaths. Could someone have handled it better that Walensky? Maybe; but given just how politicized this nation is, just how self-centered and ignorant, given our polarization, and given that our Congress has over and over cut funding to NIH, FDA, CDC, and State legislatures funding to . . . How do you explain that on a per capita basis among advanced technological nations we have one of the highest covid death rates?

And once more, what do you base your position on? Anyone can find articles, etc. backing any position. Yep, newspapers criticize CDC, some deserved, some not. Newspaper sell “if it bleeds, it leads.” Yet, some have also written positive articles.

You write: “You claim I don’t read the material you post, did you watch the twitter video of the two mask women who assaulted a black man or any of the videos of other mask people assaulting people for not wearing a mask out side, I would guess not. And you use a former commissioner of the FDA and now a board member of …….. Pfizer for support. Would you use a HHS administrator that went to work for the tobacco lobby or an EPA/DOE administrator that went to work for big oil.”

I don’t need to watch a video of assaults to be aware they are occurring. Such assaults don’t say anything about the scientific validity of masks anymore than watching a news report of deaths due to drunken driving saying anything about laws against drinking and driving. Just one example of your illogic, unscientific approach. As for Scott Gottlieb, as I wrote you FUCKIN ASSHOLE, I’ve read five books by different people on the pandemic and probably well over 1,000 articles. Gottlieb’s book is well-documented, a good start; but I clearly suggested reading them all and gave the list. So, ASSHOLE, I don’t rely on one person; but I do look at their reference list, do consider what they write based on prior knowledge, etc. Another example of your dishonesty and stupidity, because I explained that I had read other books, etc. And just because he works for Pfizer doesn’t mean he is dishonest or that his perspective, insights, aren’t valid. And while I don’t particularly like our pharmaceutical industry, the Pfizer vaccine has saved many lives, prevented serious illness, and hospitalizations. Just look at Israel. And don’t tell me how many cases now being experienced. Cases means nasopharyngeal swabs finding virus in sinuses or sample taken from inside cheeks, not hospitalization and deaths. And Gottlieb being on board of Pfizer doesn’t conflict with discussing what went wrong as HHS administrator working for tobacco lobby or EPA administrator for big oil. The latter two have only one goal, to see tobacco or oil profits. Pfizer produced a vaccine which has saved lives and some treatments for actual covid, writing what went wrong, especially before vaccines even developed and used doesn’t in any way, shape, or form represent even a close analogy to the other two.

So, once more ASSHOLE, what do you base you position on? I don’t mean papers, videos you’ve watched; but what skills, knowledge you have to evaluate them. And I am an old man with time on my hands, but you seem to be devoting a lot of time to opposing me. Why? Do you have nothing better to do with your life that fight with one old man? In two weeks, I’ll be donating plasma and platelets again. Oh, and another example of what a FUCKIN ASSHOLE you are because you claimed I stayed at home, didn’t care about other people. But long before the vaccine, from outbreak of pandemic, at risk as old man, I continued to donate blood. What have you done???

@ Clint

You write: “But you are certain I am wrong ”

I’ve made it clear, which you stupidly and/or dishonestly ignore that I don’t form opinion considered 100% right. As I wrote earlier, I base my opinion on science, scientific metholodology, etc. And i did write that based on modern science, maybe 1 in a thousand or 10 thousand times somebody without any scientific reasoning might turn out right; but the odds are that acting based on science is the absolute best approach. And as I’ve made it clear, you have not made a case, just cited things, then twisted, distorted, and lied about what i said. Though I cannot be certain, I base my position on 40 years learning immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, history and current status of infectious diseases, and reading lots on current pandemic, and understanding them because I have the tools/knowledge to do so. So, I can’t be 100% sure you are wrong; but what do you base your opinion on? What certainty?

But, given what I do know, if I live another 10 years, reports on current pandemic will, among other things, develop better stats on the current pandemic, and either it will go away, maybe mutate to a more transmissible and severe mutant, and/or another pandemic, which we will probably not be prepared for will occur. I hope I am wrong because I value human life; but intellectually, the odds are I am right. So, if I live 10 years and few more lives are lost, emotionally I will be happy; but if I’m right, emotionally I will be extremely sad; but intellectually know I had been right and did my part, though small, to try to get people to understand the risks.

Below just some of what I’ve read since outbreak of pandemic

Pandemic Preparedness & Failure
Reference List

Books

Burleigh, Nina (2021 May). Virus: Vaccinations, the CDC, and the Hijacking of Americas Response to the Pandemic.

Gottlieb, Scott (2021). Uncontrolled Spread: Why COVID-19 Crushed Us and How We Can Defeat the Next Pandemic.

Horton, Richard (2020 Jun). The COVID-19 Catastrophe – What’s Gone Wrong and How To Stop It Happening Again.

Lewis, Michael (2021 May). The Premonition: A Pandemic Story.

MacKenzie, Debora (2020 Jul). COVID-19: The Pandemic that Never Should Have Happened and How to Stop the Next One.

Taylor, Steven (2019). The Psychology of Pandemics: Preparing for the Next Global Outbreak of Infectious Disease.

Reports

Annas GJ et al. (2008 Jan). Pandemic Preparedness: The Need for a Public Health—Not a Law Enforcement/National Security-Approach. American Civil Liberties Union.

Institute of Medicine (2007). Ethical and Legal Considerations in Mitigating Pandemic Disease: Workshop Summary. National Academies Press.

Institute of Medicine (2015). Emerging Viral Diseases: The One Health Connection: Workshop Summary.

Johns Hopkins (2019). Global Health Security Index: Building Collective Action and Accountability.

John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health (2021). Technologies to Address Global Catastrophic Biological Risks.

National Academy of Medicine (2016). The Neglected Dimension of Global Security – A Framework to Counter Infectious Disease Crises. National Academies Press.

Trust for America’s Health (2013). Outbreaks: Protecting Americans Infectious Diseases.

Trust for America’s Health (2016). Ready or Not: Protecting the Public’s Health from Diseases, Disasters and Bioterrorism.

The Independent Panel for Pandemic Preparedness & Response (2021 May). COVID-19: Make it the Last Pandemic.

Wenham C et al. (2021 May 21). Preparing for the next pandemic: The recommendations of the Independent Panel for Pandemic Preparedness and Response do not go far enough. BMJ.

WHO (2005). International Health Regulations (Third Edition).

WHO (Global Preparedness Monitoring Board) (2019). A World At Risk: Annual report on global preparedness for health emergencies.

Papers

Branswell H (2020 Apr 20). The months of magical thinking: As the coronavirus swept over China, some experts were in denial. STAT.

Bruni F (2020 May 2). She Predicted the Coronavirus. What Does She Foresee Next? Laurie Garrett, the prophet of this pandemic, expects years of death and “collective rage.” The New York Times.

CDC (2014 Jan 29). 2013-2014 National Snapshot of Public Health Preparedness.

Darzi A & Afeyan N (2020 May 11). A global pathogen shield/ the health security step to ‘never again’. STAT.

Duncan DE (2020 Mar 27). “Prepare, Prepare, Prepare”: Why Didn’t the World Listen to the Coronavirus Cassandras? Vanity Fair.

Florko N (2020 Apr 6). Is BARDA ready to respond to a crisis like coronavirus? STAT.

Foote MMK et al. (2017 Sep 15). Assessment of Hospital Emergency Department Response to Potentially Infectious Diseases Using Unannounced Mystery Patient Drills — New York City, 2016. MMWR; 66(36): 945-949.

Frieden TR et al. (2021 Jul 6). 7-1-7: an organising principle, target, and accountability metric to make the world safer from pandemics. The Lancet.

Friedman U (2020 Mar 18). We Were Warned: When the inevitable inquiry into the government’s response to COVID-19 happens, it will conclude that signs of a coming crisis were everywhere. The Atlantic.

GAO (2018 May). INFECTIOUS DISEASE THREATS: Funding and Performance of Key Preparedness and Capacity-Building Programs.

GAO (2020 Feb 19). NATIONAL BIODEFENSE STRATEGY: Additional Efforts Would Enhance Likelihood of Effective Implementation.

Garrett L (2019 Sep 20). The World Knows an Apocalyptic Pandemic Is Coming – Foreign Policy.

Khazan O (2021 Jun 25). We’re Not Ready for Another Pandemic: The next big plague is coming, and despite making progress on pandemic preparedness, the U.S. might still suffer mass casualties. The Atlantic.

Kirchhoff C (2020 Mar 28). Ebola Should Have Immunized the United States to the Coronavirus: What Washington Filed to Learn From the National Security Council’s Ebola Report. Foreign Affairs.

Marston HD, Paules CI, Fauci AS (2017 Oct 4). The Critical Role of Biomedical Research in Pandemic Preparedness. JAMA

McLeary J & Medish M (2020 Apr 7). Paradigm Shift by Pandemic. CounterPunch.

Morens DM, Taubenberger JK, Fauci AS (2009 Jan). An Historical Antecedent of Modern Guidelines for Community Pandemic Influenza Mitigation.

Morrison JS et al. (2019 Nov). Ending the Cycle of Crisis and Complacency in U.S. Global Health Security. A Report of the Center for Strategic & International Studies Commission on Strengthening America’s Health Security.

Nigosian H & Kickbusch I (2021 Feb 25). The case for an international pandemic treaty: A treaty would protect lives, livelihoods, security, and human rights. BMJ

@ Clint

You write: “And per your article, “It’s also important to take these numbers lightly because hospitals vary in how they define “incidental”, said Dr. Jeanne Noble, an associate professor of emergency medicine at the University of California, San Francisco.” The entire point of the article was that it isn’t certain just how much of covid statistics are overblown because of a number of reasons. The article was trying to be honest and not just give one side, so, you, in your typical DISHONEST mode, ignored a nuanced paper and cited a quote that supports your position. I’m sure if 50 people, many experts in some area, testified before Congress and 48 of the 50 made strong statements on a position you opposed and I suggested you look at the Congressional transcript, you would cite the two whose position supported yours, totally ignoring the others, including the substance of their testimony. This is a major reason that you are a DISHONEST ASSHOLE.

As for how certain I am, there is an old saying: Wrong for the right reasons and right for the wrong reasons. However, for every time someone is wrong for the right reasons, they are right for the right reasons umpteen more times, whereas, for every time someone is right for the wrong reasons, they are wrong for the wrong reasons umpteen times. So, I’ll stick with the right reasons.

And once more just for sake of argument, let’s say 50% of deaths attributed to covid were actually caused by something else and even though patient had covid in system it had nothing to do with their being hospitalized or death. So, that means over 400,000 people died prematurely. And as I’ve written, you could care less. Guess if your parents still alive or, perhaps, older siblings that if they died tomorrow, you wouldn’t care, having them around longer not important to you. Or if your parents or others already passed, hasn’t had any effect on you whatsoever. Yep, CDC stats may be larger than perfect system; but covid is still killing, hospitalizing, causing long covid in too many people who those of us who care about human life, who value human life, who also feel for those who have lost loved ones, still support actions to reduce such. Above I went through an article by John Ioannidis where he criticized how some of the mitigation measures deprive us of some of our freedoms and then he stated will be difficult if impossible to regain those freedoms. And I wrote that dead people and those with long covid certainly will have a difficult time regaining any freedom.

So, cherry-pick papers, videos that support your view, a view not based on any in depth understanding of infectious diseases and/or other papers, ignore most and find a sentence or paragraph taken out of context to post. So, once again, what is your level of education and what subjects? What is or was your profession? What have you read on immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, infectious diseases, pandemic histories, etc? I gave a great list to start with. And for an intro to immunology: Lauren Sompayrac’s “How the Immune System Works (6th edition)” only about 160 pages, well-written with good diagrams, etc. Or I could recommend some undergraduate textbooks that are 800 pages, in-depth chemistry, etc. not necessary for overall understanding of immune system and, thus, how vaccines work. Then I could recommend some books or even just some articles on mRNA

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