Those of you who’ve been reading my posts on “turbo cancer,” an epidemic of which is being blamed on mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines by antivaxxers, in particular Yale epidemiologist Harvey Risch, delicensed nuclear medicine radiologist William Makis, cardiologist turned antivax quack Peter McCullough, and molecular biologists like Phillip Buckhaults and Kevin McKernan, both of whom appear to have forgotten some very basic chemistry along with all the genetics, biochemistry, and molecular biology that they abuse. “Turbo cancer,” as I’ve discussed for nearly a year now, is not a thing, at least not a real thing. It’s a term made up by antivaxxers to claim that COVID-19 vaccines are fueling a wave of incredibly aggressive cancers and/or a wave of recurrences of cancers in remission as unstoppably aggressive cancers.
As I point out in every post on the topic, claim that COVID-19 vaccines cause cancer appeared very soon after the vaccines rolled out, starting with the misrepresentation of old in vitro studies and of a Department of Defense database, and then later progressed to doing incredible contortions of science and reason, in essence twisting them into pretzels, to blame SV40 promoter sequences in “DNA contamination” of the mRNA vaccines, an echo of very old antivax claims that SV40 virus in polio vaccines in the early 1960s had led to a wave of cancer decades later. More recently, they’ve tried to claim the implausible mechanism that the vaccines somehow shut down the immune system, thus shutting down cancer surveillance and letting cancer have free rein.
I expect such a narrative to be alarming to the lay person, who doesn’t have detailed biological knowledge of cancer, genetics, molecular biology, or the complex mechanisms of carcinogenesis. What I don’t expect is for an oncologist and a cancer center director to take such wild speculation particularly seriously. Sure, there’s one legitimate oncologist that I can find promoting this narrative—and, no, William Makis and Ryan Cole don’t count—a UK physician named Angus Dalgleish, but Dalgleish also claims that the virus was engineered in a lab, something that even most “lab leak” conspiracy theorists don’t even claim anymore, and is spreading his implausible message seemingly to every antivax influencer who will interview him. Like all “turbo cancer” mavens, Dalgleish bases his fear mongering on anecdotes more than actual data.
Enter Prof. Wafik El-Deiry. It’s funny what a difference 14 years can make. (Actually, it’s funny what a difference that 30 years can make.)
As I’ve pointed out before, Prof. El-Deiry published seminal work on tumor suppressor genes back in the 1990s and continues to run a productive lab since he became the director of the cancer center at Brown University. I first became seriously concerned about him late last month, when he posted this to the platform formerly known as Twitter:
I won’t retread old ground other than to point out that his post was amplifying approvingly a video of antivax propagandist Del Bigtree—yes, Del Bigtree!—interviewing William Makis about “turbo cancer.” Worse, Prof. El-Deiry seemed accept the interview at face value, expressing “concern” about whether there might be something to this myth, and his status as a respected researcher could only serve to make speculations about “turbo cancer” seem credible—or at least plausible—to the lay public.
In any event, two weeks later, Prof. El-Deiry was once again speculating about “turbo cancer.” Unfortunately, when he was corrected by a number of scientists while others pointed out that Makis lost his license and is not an oncologist and that Bigtree is one of the most prominent antivax influencers out there, he doubled down and started complaining that his critics were “harassing” him:
And, of course, “silencing” him:
Here’s some additional context. Prof. El-Deiry, far from chastened by the original criticism of his amplifying Makis and Bigtree’s antivax narrative, had been interviewed by Maryanne Demasi. Ms. Demasi is, of course, a figure that might be familiar to a number of our readers. She’s an antivax “journalist” and has been published a number of times on Robert F. Kennedy Jr.’s antivax website, Children’s Health Defense. In fairness, Prof. El-Deiry claims that he didn’t know her background when he agreed to the interview, and I have no reason to doubt him. However, I do have reason to criticize him for not having found out and, even worse, for still continuing to defend his decision to be interviewed by her after he had been shown that not only is she an antivaxxer but she has also been published a number of times on the conspiracy propaganda rag The Epoch Times.
As much as it pains me to do so, I decided that I had to discuss Demasi’s interview with Prof. Wafik, because he provides a perfect example of what not to do, namely to agree to be interviewed by anyone who is unfamiliar to you without investigation who she is. (Warning, antivaxxers trying to pull one over on me by inviting me to be “interviewed” on your platform: That’s exactly what I do. I will Google and ask around if I don’t know who you are. If you are antivax, I will figure it out.) Demasi starts by recounting one case report that I discussed in my usual level of detail last December of a man whose lymphoma took off three weeks after receiving a Moderna booster. I mention this right now because Prof. El-Deiry cites this case as one of his examples, and linking to my post on the case report saves me the trouble of explaining why the case report is unconvincing.
The other thing that amused me about this interview is that Maryanne Demasi dunked on the oncologist turned COVID-19 contrarian, Dr. Vinay Prasad. In fairness, in this case Dr. Prasad was stone cold correct about “turbo cancer,” an excellent example of the proverbial stopped clock being right twice a day:
The story prompted a flood of anecdotes on social media about people’s cancers becoming ‘turbo charged’ following covid vaccination and some doctors said they had observed a spike in aggressive cancers in young patients.
Other doctors fiercely criticised the article for stoking vaccine hesitancy. Prominent haematologist-oncologist Vinay Prasad took to social media to say The Atlantic article was “irresponsible.”
“Where is the evidence that mRNA vaccines fuel cancer growth even in a subset of people? Case-reports don’t count, obviously. You need careful epidemiological evidence to make such a claim. Where is that? Do that before you cover it in the news. Duh,” tweeted Prasad at the time.
Let’s just say that Ms. Demasi…left something out. Here’s the Tweet in context:
Basically, Dr. Prasad was down with the antivax fear mongering about myocarditis, which can happen after COVID-19 vaccination, generally in younger people, and is usually mild with no long term sequelae. He just doesn’t like the fear mongering about cancer. Apparently, when it came to antivax narratives, “turbo cancer” was a bridge too far for Dr, Prasad.
That digression aside—and regular readers know that I do love my digressions when they allow me to dunk on a bête noire of the blog—Ms. Demasi proceeds to regurgitate the fear mongering about “DNA contamination” of COVID-19 vaccines, as though it proves Dr. Prasad completely wrong and justifies those making the claim of “turbo cancer.” (It doesn’t.) This leads to her interview, where she gets right to asking Prof. El-Deiry about “turbo cancer”:
DEMASI: But some people think it can be caused by covid-19 vaccines?
EL-DEIRY: I have seen case reports of hyper-progressive cancers after covid vaccination where it looks like there is a relationship with how rapidly these tumours are growing. But it’s an association. It’s not proof that it caused it. This isn’t the easiest thing to uncover because we know that patients in remission can have cancers that come back, sometimes the tumours grow and don’t respond to treatment.
DEMASI: So, you’re not saying covid vaccines cause turbo cancers, but you’re not dismissing it either?
EL-DEIRY: There are anecdotes [eg 1, 2, 3 and 4], so why not do the studies? We are three years into this, there’s no roaring pandemic out there, life has largely come back to normal, so why haven’t we nailed down these things?
DEMASI: Because anecdotes are often dismissed…
EL-DEIRY: Well, anecdotes may not be your cup of tea as far as acceptable evidence goes but I think anecdotes matter. Case reports and case series are relevant and important. What’s more important is if there are anecdotes, that through the scientific process, people then dig in deeper and try to establish if there is a cause.
I put it out there on social media and people were just dismissing it and they were assassinating the characters of individuals who were raising questions. Is this what we want in science?
Prof. El-Deiry is correct that this is nothing but correlation. I would, however, correct him slightly: It’s a claimed correlation. Correlation has not been established, except through cherry-picked anecdotes that antivaxxers cite to claim that there is a “wave”—or even “tsunami” of “turbo cancer” cases being caused by COVID-19 vaccines. I know that that’s not what Prof. El-Deiry is doing here, but he is inadvertently contributing to that narrative.
Moreover, no one is saying that case reports and case series don’t matter. They do. What Prof. El-Deiry appears to be utterly oblivious to is what these case reports and anecdotes are being used for. (See preceding paragraph.) Being a scientist, he thinks that it’s not unreasonable to use them as hypothesis-generating information. That’s fine, as far as it goes. What he fails to grasp is that Ms. Demasi and those for whom she works are not using them for that. They’re using them to spin an antivax narrative that COVID-19 vaccines are causing deadly cancers in young people, and he’s unwittingly letting her yoke his scientific reputation to the story in order to add credibility to the claim that COVID-19 vaccines.
But what about the case reports (1, 2, 3 and 4)? As I said, #2 is the one that I discussed in detail 10 months ago. It’s not at all convincing. So let’s go with #1, which is the most interesting one and the only one that is even remotely suggestive of a real correlation. Why do I say this? It’s the only one where a cancer developed at or near the injection site. And then I looked at the case report, which describes a 73-year-old woman who developed a sarcoma in the same arm where she received her Moderna booster. At first, I thought that this was an injection site tumor, but then I looked at the MRI, which showed it well down the upper arm overlying the triceps muscle:
She noticed the initial swelling two to four days after receiving her second dose of the Moderna vaccine within 1 cm from the prior injection site. This was initially attributed to phlebitis. She reported mild, non-radiating pain on palpation. Vitals were unremarkable and the patient was afebrile. Physical examination was remarkable for a 6 cm, circular, mobile, soft mass present in the right upper arm without fluctuance, erythema, or warmth. She had no neurological deficits and radial pulses were present.
Complete blood count (CBC) was unremarkable with no leukocytosis, leukocytopenia, or anemia. The comprehensive metabolic panel (CMP) was unremarkable. The patient was advised to obtain an MRI with and without contrast, which revealed a 5.2 cm soft tissue mass within the subcutaneous fat, overlying the triceps region, with irregular features concerning for malignancy (Figure 1). A subsequent ultrasound-guided core biopsy with fine needle aspiration (FNA) was performed.
The tumor turned out to be an undifferentiated, pleomorphic high-grade sarcoma. Fortunately, four months later the woman’s tumor was successfully resected and the resection site treated with adjuvant radiation, as is standard of care for such sarcomas. (I wonder why they waited four months to resect, given that the tumor more than doubled in dimensions durig that time.) Also, all I could think was: The tumor was described as being at the injection site, but that looks awfully low, below the insertion of the deltoid and overlying the triceps. Still, this is an odd case report, with no causality.
In any event, the authors concluded:
Currently, it is unclear whether there is a true association between novel vaccinations and the development of malignancy. A review of the literature does not show any other case reports demonstrating malignancy after receiving the Moderna vaccine. This should be further investigated to see if there is an association and, if so, the mechanism thereof.
I also didn’t see any immunohistochemical stains for spike protein or in situ hybridization for the spike mRNA from the vaccine reported. I found that very odd indeed. Surely, if the vaccine had caused this, we’d expect to find evidence of it in the pathology specimen itself. I would have at least looked for it, anyway. It was, after all, less than a week after the booster and therefore one of the rare cases where this sort of investigation would have been possible.
The third case is one of lymphoma:
An 80-year-old Japanese woman presented with a right temporal mass that appeared the morning after she was administered her first mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (BNT162b2). The mass gradually decreased in size but persisted over 6 weeks after her first vaccination (3 weeks after her second vaccination). At her first visit to our hospital, ultrasound revealed the size of the mass to be 28.5 × 5.7mm, and computed tomography revealed multiple lymphadenopathies in the right parotid, submandibular, jugular, and supraclavicular regions. Initially, we suspected head-and-neck benign lymphadenopathy as a side effect of vaccination. Nine weeks later, the number of swollen submandibular and parotid glands increased, and the lymph nodes further enlarged. Finally, the right temporal mass was diagnosed as marginal zone B-cell lymphoma based on immunohistochemical and flow cytometry findings of biopsy specimens. Our findings suggest that although 4–6 weeks of observation for lymph node inflammation after the second vaccination is recommended, malignancy should also be considered in the differential diagnosis of lymphadenopathy following vaccination.
This is a rather odd case, too. She received the vaccine in her left deltoid muscle but developed the swelling on her right temple less than a day later. It grew and then slowly decreased in size but did not disappear. She received her second dose of vaccine without an effect. The reason she was referred for evaluation was because after six weeks the mass had not disappeared. Again, this seems rather too quick to have been caused by the vaccine. Is it possible that an immune response promoted a preexisting cancer? Of course. It is, however, probably not likely and at worst very rare, even if it does happen at all, because if it were common there would be huge case series describing such events now, rather than the odd case report here. Also, I couldn’t help but note this part:
This patient wanted to notify the possibility of neoplastic lymphadenopathy mimicking lymphadenopathy following the mRNA COVID-19 vaccinations as a caution. Moreover, she wanted to utilize our therapeutic experience for other patients with COVID-19 vaccine-related lymphadenopathies to prevent negligence or delayed diagnoses.
So the patient wanted her case publicized.
The last paper describes two cases:
Case 1: A female patient was admitted with a suspicious cervical mass that emerged within one week after the administration of second dose of the BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine. Surgical removal followed by pathology assessment of the specimen confirmed the diagnosis of diffuse large B-cell non-Hodgkin lymphoma. Case 2: A male patient was admitted with multiple ulcerative oral lesions arising on the third day after the initial dose of the BNT162b2 COVID-19 vaccine. These lesions had a progressive character and during the following months were complicated with repetitive episodes of heavy oral bleeding, requiring blood transfusions. The incisional biopsy of the lesions and pathological assessment of the specimens confirmed the diagnosis of T/NK-cell lymphoma.
The cases could be suggestive of accelerated growth after vaccination, but they could also be coincidence. Indeed, the contrarian in me—yes, there is some—can’t help but suggest that, given the billions of doses of COVID-19 vaccine administered thus farm, by random chance alone I’d have expected to see a lot more case reports of cancers diagnosed soon after vaccination, using the same reasoning that leads to thousands of cases of autism being first diagnosed after childhood vaccinations.
Be that as it may, it was pointed out:
Basically, all “turbo cancer” advocates—or, like Prof. El-Deiry, those who find the concept plausible or even compelling—have is a handful of anecdotes out of billions of doses of vaccine, while much larger studies have failed to find a hint of a signal for vaccine-associated cancers. Nor do they have a plausible biological mechanism.
Also, as a friend of the blog and regular commenter noted:
Later in the interview:
DEMASI: Yes, this replicated the work of Kevin McKernan….What was it about Buckhaults’ Senate testimony that got your attention?
EL-DEIRY: Phillip has shown there are billions of DNA fragments contaminating the mRNA vaccine. He’s been doing this for a long time. The fragments may get into cells with the help of lipid nanoparticles, and into the nucleus and may even get integrated in the genome. This may lead to something, or it may lead to nothing. But I think we should find out.
It’s possible that lipid nanoparticles could get into locally recruited immune cells or muscle stem cells or endothelial cells and then cause lymphoma, sarcoma, or angiosarcoma.
“Billions of DNA fragments”? Not this again. Do I need to go all Avogadro on Prof. El-Deiry, as I did with Buckhaults and the antivaxxers promoting McKernan and Buckhaults’ narrative? Oh, why not? I’ll be a bit nicer, though, than I was with them. “Billions” is not a large number when we are talking about molecules. Why not? Let’s take two billion, for instance: (2 x 109)/(6.023 x 1023/mole) = 3.3 x 10-15mole or 3.3 femtomole, an incredibly tiny amount. Even 100 times that—200 billion!—would only be 3.3 x 10-13 mole, or 0.33 picomole, again a very small quantity. Certainly, expressing the quantity of DNA fragments claimed to have been found as femtomole or picomole quantities would not have sounded nearly as scary as “billions and billions” of fragments.
As for the lipid nanoparticles, apparently they can go anywhere and do magical things. Maybe. Or maybe it’s the dreaded pseudouridine:
The Nobel Prize was just won recently for the discovery that pseudouridine stabilises the mRNA from immune attack. How long does it last in the body and how much variation is there in the population? Different people may have different abilities to metabolise and get rid of it.
This is basically a rehash of William Makis’ fear mongering about pseudouridine in a “just asking questions” format:
There could be immune effects, there’s been some talk about IgG4 switching [see article for explanation], or it could be with the contamination of DNA which gets into the genome because that could disrupt tumour suppressor genes.
Dr. Makis loves to cite work showing that pseudouridine-containing RNA can decrease the activity of proteins known as Toll-like receptors, which is in part how these modified mRNAs escape degradation by the immune system. Dr. Makis, of course, claims without evidence that the mRNA vaccines damage cancer surveillance. It’s all hand-waving, of course, based on papers that did find this but have shown no link to cancer. In brief, there is no evidence that modified mRNA “dampens the immune response” to cancer, including the 2005 paper by Kariko et al that found that the modified mRNA did dampen the immune response to…RNA!
The COVID-19 pandemic has bene a real education for me not just in the science directly related to coronaviruses, mRNA vaccines, and public health, but also a lesson about how no one—and I mean no one, myself included—is immune to being attracted to ideas not rooted in science, even scientists who should know better, like oncologists and cancer biologists who are experts in tumor suppressor genes and immunotherapy of cancer, like Prof. El-Deiry. It is also a reminder of how pride is not your friend when you start to go wrong. (See also, Prasad, Vinay.)
If Prof. El-Deiry had responded to criticism by saying something along the lines, “I still think there might be something to this turbo cancer thing worth investigating further, but I had no idea who people like Del Bigtree and Maryanne Demasi were, what they do, or that they are basically professional antivaccine influencers, and that is why I will be more careful in the future,” no one on “our side,” least of all I, would have batted an eye, “attacked” or “harassed” Prof. El-Deiry, or held his mistake against him. After all, antivax influencers like Bigtree and Demasi are very slick. They’re really good at convincing scientists previously unaware of the antivaccine propaganda machine that they are honest journalists just wanting to learn more, taking advantage of the generally open and trusting nature of scientific culture. Prof. El-Deiry can take comfort, if he sees this, in the knowledge that he is far from the first legitimate scientist to have been taken in by antivaxxers. Nor will he be the last, I fear.
Unfortunately, I also fear that he has not learned from this experience, which is sad. By Saturday night, he had blocked nearly all critics on X/Twitter, including Debunk the Funk, Dorit Reiss, and me. (I sadly unblocked him back, because I make no exceptions in my policy of blocking those who’ve blocked me.) More’s the pity.
144 replies on “An antivaxxer interviews a respected oncologist about “turbo cancer””
It was painful. As you point out, anyone can make a mistake. But you’d hope that a scientist would be open to looking at the evidence, and when he finds out that he was misled, and that there are studies, would acknowledge the mistake and learn to do better, rather than going defensive.
Yeah. Having been familiar with his work from the 1990s on into the 2010s, which is when my research took a different turn that relied less on previous work that included his, I was really disappointed.
Has anyone tried putting El-Deiry in touch with his Brown faculty colleague Kenneth Miller, or asked Miller to contact El-Deiry? Miller restricts his pseudoscience criticism to creationism, and hasn’t stuck his head up much since 2005, but covid denial/anti-vax pseudoscience overlaps and is so similar to creationism pseudoscience that he should be able to offer cautions about taking politically popular pseudoscience as honest and legitimate.
We need psychologists to figure out what triggers these formerly competent doctors and scientists to go completely off the deep end. Is it their politics? Narcissism/Savior Complex? Grift? All of the above? None of the above?
There’s something in the personalities of a subset of doctors that makes them love to be the “brave maverick,” the ones who “think for themselves.” Not for them are evidence-based diagnosis and treatment guidelines. They can synthesize evidence far better than mere professional societies and expert panels. They know an effective treatment when they see it! They don’t need no stinkin’ RCTs.!
@ Matt G:
Although I would certainly refuse the job, I can speculate:
a few researchers have found that anti-vaxxers in general have narcissistic and paranoid traits ( not necessarily dxs), think that they are special and tend to be more rebellious/ anti-authorities.
Karen Douglas ( UK) and Matt Hornsey ( AUS) are two specialists in this area.
There’s an old article in Quackwatch by its original editor venturing that medical professionals who fall into the woo patch are often those who feel that they have little power or little effect in their work. Orac writes about the lure of grift. Money and adulation are motivation for internet gurus and self-created authorities. Don’t forget that social media/ Substack enable BS and internet saviours are commonplace.
US researchers have shown that anti-vax tendencies reflect politics in belief, action ( refusing vaccines) and results ( more illness).
Most of the anti-vaxxers/ alt med “experts* I read lean right or libertarian.
Wonder whether the Epoch Times will be promoting anecdotal evidence of tumor regression after Covid-19 vaccination and/or infection:
https://jitc.bmj.com/content/10/3/e004371
http://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10119533
The connection with cancer remission seems at least as convincing (or unconvincing) as the alleged connection with neoplastic activation.
Off topic:
@ Orac,
Is “Turbo Cancer-Treatment” an unavoidable medical practice? A friend was recently diagnosed with stage-one cancer. Within 6-months, after surgery and three rounds of radiation/chemo, sepsis occurred. The near death experience resulted in seven (7) lost toes and a learned aversion to conventional cancer therapy . Although, the oncologist reported some beneficial cancer treatment results…
Q. Is “turbo cancer-treatment” a common practice based on metastasis fears (i.e., turbo cancer)?
More off topic:
It recently came to my attention that a pro-vaccine safety effort is being discombobulated by Amazon.com (Customer Reviews).
https://www.amazon.com/Vaccine-Delivery-Autism-Latex-Connection/product-reviews/1456570056?reviewerType=all_reviews
You should write a book containing your cancer anecdotes.
By the time it reaches print, Amazon may have figured out a way to allow reviewers to give minus stars.
Apparently, you can’t even give a book a zero-star review there:
Review by Medical Historian
Don’t encourage him. 😂
Dr. Dangerous writes,
“You should write a book containing your cancer anecdotes.”
MJD says,
I love it when you abandon respectful insolence and encourage scientific effort.
In related news, after mjd wrote that post he looked up and asked What just make that whooshing noise over my head?
I LOLled.
Pretty much sums up all of your paid to publish thoughts.
I sometimes wonder if some people, nobody specifically, have careerist motivations, and expect that soon the “science” will turn upside down, and then the early adopters of the “new science” will somehow advance their careers.
Are you describing yourself? Because you are the one who thinks science will change and prove you’re right, even if everyone, including people who have far more knowledge of medical science, cancer and vaccines, tells you, you are wrong.
I have no career aspirations at this point
OBVIOUSLY It’s ALL about building careers/ earning money.
Whether it’s alt med/ credentialled contrarians/ anti-vax/ chaos agents, the first line of attack is to convince followers that authorities have been wrong before, are not trustworthy and their input is worthless:
the media lies, SBM has supported evil aims, don’t trust experts, science knows nothing, a university education is not worth it **
The only way these people have a chance is IF EXPERTS ARE DISCOURAGED because they themselves have little or no background or credibility!
Two timely- but hilarious- examples, this week:
alt med broadcasters ‘instruct” their audiences about the Israel-Hamas conflict-
–Israeli leaders are NAZIS; Nazis are leftwing authoritarians- Socialist is in their name (NN)
–the UK has interfered in the area since 1917, when they sent DH Lawrence there ( prn.live)
Thus, they are being “educated” by people who lack basic information as well as insight into their own capacities.
Anti-government activists seek to destroy agencies in a similar manner because if all oversight is relinquished, they have more of a chance to do what they will – include make money.
Alt med/ anti-vax advocates on the net/ Substack similarly inveigle support by asserting wild schemes and showing mis-interpreted data to engender outrage so followers side with them. Some sell supplements/ books/ films/ conferences or get paid subscribers( Naomi Wolf, Malone et al)
Large numbers of followers/ likes boost egos as well.
** all paraphrases – the last two courtesy of Bill Maher this year. I overhear him when my SO watches, I can no longer actually watch him.
Nor can I watch Maher any longer.
He makes me sick: arrogance of ignorance multiplied by smugness.
-btw- he’s from Bergen County, NJ which is blue, affluent and rather diverse. If he didn’t go to university he probably would have been stuck selling cars, insurance or working in one of the many MALLS, chasing after well educated Asian women
What do you think of Glenn Greenwald? I think he’s a very important voice in these dangerous times and try to watch his Rumble show five days a week.
Ugh. Greenwald is as bad as Maher.
The fact that he’s on rumble tells you everything you need to know — and there’s nothing good there.
–Israeli leaders are NAZIS; Nazis are leftwing authoritarians- Socialist is in their name (NN)
You made a grave error by spouting idiotic nonsense to someone whose hobbies also include WWII: https://oracknows.blogspot.com/search?q=hitler
He’s also not even particularly creative in his parroting the lie that Nazis were leftists. I mean, geez, the best he can do is to cherry pick the odd quote from well before the Nazis came to power and purged the last of anything resembling socialism from the party.😂
He obviously has not read In the Garden of Beasts by Eric Larson. It does show how the Nazis were trying to hide their real purpose.
He’s rapidly irritating me, which is why it think I’ll post comment guidelines right here, just to remjnd Lucas. https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/commenting-policy/
Funny, because Israel has a right-wing government.
It looks like the word Nazis is used far to often at this moment.
Putin fights against Ukrainian Nazis (according to Putin)
Nazis did not a single socialist thing when they were in power. Hamas is much closer to Nazis than Israeli giovernment. Hamas does kill Jews.
@Denice Walter
“Nazis are leftwing authoritarians- Socialist is in their name (NN)”
Nazis were indeed leftwing authoritarians. Anyone denying this has no clue about definition and history.
“Israeli leaders are NAZIS”
– Not that I take side in the conflict, but indeed there are lots of nazis in Jerusalem.
This is ahistorical revisionist bullshit only spewed by people who are utterly ignorant of definitions, politics, and history. No wonder Lucas is projecting.
So that’s why the Nazis went for socialists and communists first.
Yeah, the Nazis were leftist. That’s why, in the late 1920s as the German economy careened downward, that notable liberal Hitler gathered support from wealthy industrialists, all of whom were strongly against socialism and socialist policies.
Otto Strasser came to realize Hitler had moved the Nazi party away from socialism and neither he nor his supporters cared about workers, so he [Strasser] left the party.
They were so leftist that Hindenburg (another famous leftist, am I right?) made him chancellor. Then, in April 1933, communists, socialists, democrats, and Jews were purged from the German civil services, with trade unions getting the boot soon after. (Perhaps all of his lefty friends were purged because they didn’t like his art?)
With the banning of all other political parties in July, as well as leaders in the Communist and Social Democratic Parties arrested and sent to concentration camps, hitler cemented himself as the definition of left-wing brutal leader.
Of course, all of those things saying Hitler was left wing and the Nazis were socialist only make sense if you are a history-denying dolt. Oh, look who’s here: Lucas. Speak of the stereotypical history-denying dolt.
You perhaps can mention one leftwing act Nazis did in power and name a Nazi in Israel.
Apt: https://davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/BIG-PHARMA-DEVIL-IMAGE.jpg
Denice ought to be grateful she is (apparently) not surveying antivaxers on (X)Twitter. Some of the stuff showing up on my feed from the past week:
Steve Kirsch posting a photo of his new cat exclaiming how happy it is not to be vaccinated.
James Lyons-Weiler observing that our ancestors “thrived” without 4 vaccines being given to pregnant women (actually it’s 3 vaccines; James doesn’t count so gud).
Dr. David Cartland (a virulently antivax U.K. physician who refers to Covid vaccine as a “poison dart” and places where immunizations are given as “jabbatoires”), reposting a weird anti-Semitic video purporting to show a Satanic image in the Talmud (post apparently removed later).
And Pierre Kory posting this: “Liz Gunn, a widely attacked politician from NZ (i.e. credible) reports discovery of a database of vaccine horrors, including that of one center where 30 consecutive people got jabbed on the same day… with every single one subsequently dying within a short time of each other.”
Ooomagooma, “Died Suddenly” on high-dose steroids.
I have to give up on Twitter. It’s a continual infusion of maunderings of the brain-dead.
Sometimes crap like you listed is down to the difficulty of good moderation. With xitter right now it’s due to elon’s politics and his gutting of the company trust/safety/security groups.
I also see a lot of deterioration, garbage, and jumping sharks.
There is a lot less to report on Covid vaccines, because nothing is happening, people are not getting vaccinated any more, mandates are gone and so on. So, people resort to “jumping the shark” just to stay relevant, spouting extreme absurdities instead of finding good topics to talk about and sticking to the truth.
Everything else is deteriorating also: YouTube is full of computer generated garbage, its recommendation engine is horrible, etc.
Google search is becoming useless. Google has not innovated anything ever since it got busy fighting “misinformation” and took political sides.
The Israel conflict is next to impossible to follow due to fakery.
The Ukraine war has all commentators either taking sides or getting paid to say what they say.
Meanwhile, underneath all this, we have a seriously deteriorating financial situation, with the bond markets (TLT and long term bonds) tightening without any regard to the Fed actions (the Fed has not done much recently and yet the bond prices continued to slide/yields increased) etc etc etc.
The assets that many of us hold, such as homes and stocks and fixed income securities, may not retain their purchasing power because they are overpriced. Even our currency is overpriced. If adjustments happen, it will eventually be beneficial, but expect a lot of pain in the coming years.
The interest on our Federal debt is rising dramatically due to interest rates increasing and will soon overtake the military budget, Social Security etc.
Regrettably, our political leadership (both Democrats and Republicans) are just ignorant, virtue-signaling buffoons, pandering to the worst instincts, incapable of handling the situation and of making tough decisions.
You just destroyed my irony meter.
“Regrettably, (antivax Substack posters) are just ignorant, virtue-signaling buffoons, pandering to the worst instincts”
So true.
Brandy Zadrozny ( for NBC News) had a piece Friday about Elon’s new crew of mis-informers on X. Also her nitter.net account.
@ Dr Bacon:
I do read some of them on X/ nitter.net as well as Substack. One of the benefits of X is that it’s not overly long- unlike Substack meanderings- altho’ I understand that Elon is “fixing” that with longer entries.
The worst I’ve seen on X are RFK jr and Katie Wright ( katiewr31413491) and the consistently worst on Substack are Naomi Wolf, Celia Farber, Kirsch.
Igor has tough competition.
Well, so far he hasn’t dabbled in any of the areas of racism, white supremacist garbage, neo-nazi support, or other horrible stuff that’s on xitter, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he did. His “economic” post above shows he’s as clueless about politics and economics [so much for his degree] as he is about vaccines.
@ ldw56old:
I imagine that Igor is looking for followers: he writes outlandish posts on Substack that invite a particular view point- ‘don’t trust authorities’, ‘the world is falling apart’, ‘evil abounds’ etc. I wonder if his origins may have influenced his Weltanshauung – he comes from Russia!
I’m not sure how old he is or when he emigrated – was it the CCCP or Russia then? Not the greatest place for trusting media; although neither the US and UK are perfect they do have governmental controls/ investigations and non-governmental media.
I think that Igor is capable of doubting the worst anti-vax/ Covid conspiracies if we guide him towards fact checkers, SBM and Orac’s
methods.
As you say, he could be worse..
Yes, without a timeline we don’t know whether his background is from “communist russia”or “oligarch russia”. As you say, neither would be great places to learn the importance of good journalism: both would, however, be great for teaching how to spread information that is contrary to fact, and he seems to have learned that lesson quite well.
It would be nice if you were right, but I fear you’re too optimistic. He’s been exposed to a good deal of correct information and his response: it’s due to some grand conspiracy or, even worse, he simply states it isn’t correct.
No, IMO he’s a lost cause: pushing the latest conspiracies and getting the attention of people on substack are far more important to him than telling the truth will ever be.
I doubt almost everything – including everything I discuss – and fact check stuff before I opine about anything.
My subscribers actually thanked me for not sharing crap, for what it is worth.
I was 23 years old when I left Russia, so I witnessed the collapse of the Soviet Union. The collapse was not super bad for me personally, I was making good money and partied with friends through that time.
However, it was impressive how things that were so unthinkable that nobody even thought about them 5 years prior to them happening, actually happened. That’s a lesson that I will not forget. (it was also repeated by my professors when I studied business in the United States)
Remember, economic depressions and deep recessions happen here also – they are part of capitalism life, madness of crowds etc.
Here’s a cool tidbit: throughout the Soviet Union, propaganda posters and signs were everywhere reminding people of their unbreakable union with the Communist Party. When the exxccrement hit the fan in 1991 and crowds closed down the Party Central Committee building, not one person showed up to defend it, not even to verbally express their opposition.
Regarding not trusting media: I personally recommend to have healthy suspicion of all news media and read everything critically. At the very least, try to remember past news and compare them to the current news. Does the article match the headline, are there weasel words, is the article self contradictory, are opinions described as facts etc.
All propaganda always masquerades as “news”, “science”, etc – so it helps to consume news critically.
Bullshit. Nothing you’ve ever stated about vaccines or covid aligns with science. Your asinine statements about bill gates and your conspiratorial comments about the club of rome repeatedly show you prefer the most foolish conspiracies over fact. And people who subscribe to your stuff on subcrap are clearly not intelligent enough to sort through your BS to find real evidence based things.
I don’t know if your quote above was made because you believe it to be true or whether you’ve been spreading it around for so long that you do it out of habit, but either way: it’s bullshit.
@ldw56old
“His “economic” post above shows he’s as clueless about politics and economics [so much for his degree] ”
What makes you say he’s clueless about economics? Feel free to motivate your dissenting point of view.
Given your demonstrated ignorance of just about anything, trying to teach you any subject (i know you’re another “economist” who failed in your education) is a waste of time.
@ Idw56old:
Right. AND…..
fact checking/ researching sources are not easy.
Orac is able to “go into the weeds” about what happens in cells after vaccination or infection because of his studies/ profession whereas Naomi Wolf, Kirsch, Rose, Wright and various woo-meisters flounder around perseverating on cherry picked minutiae which are usually irrelevant in order to frighten followers who KNOW EVEN LESS than they do.
–RFKjr et al freaked out about mercury in vaccines causing autism
–other anti-vaxxers feared Al, gluten, casein, pesticides and diverse chemicals, subjecting children to odd, restrictive diets
There NEVER was any REAL evidence associating any of these to autism. They still persisted.
BUT since the 1980s, researchers have been studying why the brains of autistics are different and it mostly occurs before birth. There are thousands of studies done in animals, in embryos, about genes, brain development, brain imaging, physiognomy, observation of infants and of gestational influences.
There are famous researchers who made groundbreaking discoveries YET I NEVER HEAR THEIR NAMES from the aforementioned. For g-d’s sake, they even counted the number of cells/ cellular architecture that make up the differences between ASD and NT brains. These people teach courses, publish papers, have made videos for the general public and have been on news reports.
Why don’t anti-vaxxers ever discuss these facts/ scientists? Because 1. they don’t know the field they address 2. evidence contradicts their belief.
A security advisor discussing misinformation in Israel-Hamas conflict, John Kirby, said the way to counter mis-information is by providing evidence over and over, countering every new issue. Repeatedly. He teaches this at Georgetown.
When there is actual evidence, it shows up again and again. Multiple sources reveal the same. It isn’t based on special access or reporters.
[…] Makis, a seemingly “respectable” cancer doctor named Wafik El-Deiry has also been amplifying such claims in the name of “open-mindedness” and wanting to consider “all scientific […]
@all
I’ve lost count of the vax round number; is it 4, is it 5? Or perhaps 6 or 7?
Please share with me how many of these mRNA vaccines have you taken yet?
All of them, the day after tomorrow I get a new one. I’m also up for the new flu and pneumococci vaccines on November 4.
what difference does it make? The need for a booster depends, among other things, on how long the protection against severe disease lasts and the prevalence of the virus or bacterium.
FWIW, it’s probably neck and neck with the number of tetanus shots (whether DTP or TDaP). But it will never catch up with the number of influenza shots.
But so what?
Multiple scientific evidence supports the very good safety of the Covid-19 vaccinations and practically nobody has died from them (verified). 2.5% of all deaths in the U.S. were due to Covid-19 last week.
Almost all people dying of Covid, as of now, are vaccinated against Covid.
The CDC is hiding this information but it is available from last year’s UK vaccine surveillance reports. The UK discontinued reporting such information since then, because it can lead to vaccine hesitancy.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/624d5090d3bf7f32b5aa072a/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-13.pdf
Go to page 43, Table 13. COVID-19 deaths (a) within 28 days.
You will see that over 90% of Covid deaths in spring of 2022 were among Covid-vaccinated people.
Yes, it is age-confounded and there is a breakdown by age – but still you can see that the “Covid death protection” ceased to exist even a year ago.
I am so very sorry about this – I tried to warn people about Covid vaccines – and I mourn the dead vaccinated people
Report is from March 2022. Try something newer. Do not just recycle old claims.
Report did have data about VE. I wonder why you do not cite that.
No authority reports “COVID deaths by vaccination status” any more, because such reporting leads to vaccine hesitancy. This was just about the latest data released.
The last similar report from NSW Australia, showed ZERO unvaccinated people hospitalized with Covid, after which such reporting was also discontinued.
https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/covid-19/Documents/weekly-covid-overview-20221231.pdf
It never felt so good to be COVID-unvaccinated
@Orac
“This is ahistorical revisionist bullshit only spewed by people who are utterly ignorant of definitions, politics, and history. No wonder Lucas is projecting.”
Then you’re probably basing opinions on hearsay; let me guess, your teachers were mostly lefties whom you took for their word. And for sure you will not fit into that circle of friends and colleagues of yours if you don’t spew out their opinions. Feel free to do so, but reality was much different.
Always funny with these people living far away (both in time as in location) from where Nazism ruled. Shall we give them the benefit of the doubt and call this ignorant stupidity? Or is history being denied for a different motive? Sure you agree that wouldn’t be the first time.
No one here in The Netherlands or in Germany itself for that matter, would have denied Nazism as a leftwing segmentation during or soon after WW2, because it clearly was. Your view is revisionist. What on earth makes you think it was rightwing (if so)?
As someone above said, the whole “socialism” of the Nazi Party must be why Communists were their second greatest enemy after Jews. (I know, they conflated the two, with “Judeo-Bolshevism.) It also must be why they outlawed socialism and jailed Communists, Social Democrats (the main center-left party during the Weimar Republic), and trade unions soon after taking power and why the party had, even long before taking power, allied itself with far right wing nationalist movements.🙄
A brief set of reasons why the Nazi Party was fascist, not socialist:
Of course, the last remaining vestige of anything resembling “socialism” in the Nazi Party was eliminated during the Night of the Long Knives in 1934, in which Gregor Strasser was killed on Hitler’s orders. As for the rants about “bankers” and such, those were pretty standard anti-semitic tropes, because of the stereotype that bankers were all Jewish.
More on why the claim that Nazi-ism was “socialist” or left-wing is utter ahistorical bullshit:
https://www.csun.edu/~vcmth00m/NazismSocialism.html (The author concludes, correctly: “The current right wing conflation of nazism and the left is sleazy. A more informed population would view this as completely idiotic, but unfortunately this propaganda is becoming increasingly effective.”)
https://metafact.io/factcheck_answers/1470
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2020/02/05/right-needs-stop-falsely-claiming-that-nazis-were-socialists/
Key passages:
And:
So, yes. Claiming that the Nazis were a left wing party is ahistorical bullshit. It’s a lie made up by right-wingers because they know that association with fascism makes them look bad.
It is perhaps relevant in this instance to keep in mind Martin Niemöller’s famous quote.
Locking up socialists is not the act of someone who supports socialism.
“Or is history being denied for a different motive? ”
I don’t know. What is your for your history denial?
If Nazis were leftwing, can you us onr leftwing thing they did when they were in power
@Renate
“All of them, the day after tomorrow I get a new one. I’m also up for the new flu and pneumococci vaccines on November 4.”
So on November 4th you will have received how many of these shots mRNA then?
And how about the rest of them mRNA apostles here, I take it you’re up to date with all shots offered to you? Or not?
Don’t know exactly, should look it up. In the end it doesn’t matter. There are medicines one has to take on a daily basis and well, some vaccines don’t protect forever.
@Renate
“So that’s why the Nazis went for socialists and communists first.”
Hitler in a 1927 speech: “we are socialists!” Now you’re suggesting Hitler was lying? You’ve got balls Renate.
A yes – no discussion is as useless as denying that a claimed Democrate killing a Democrate is a Democrate.
In the past I published at this forum a list of typical socialist characteristics (then and now btw) in which the Nazis fitted for almost 100 percent. You might ask Orac to search it and post it again here; you’ve got no foot to stand on, Renate.
‘The Nazis were leftists’. This statement is blasphemy to the academic-media complex. Everyone knows the Nazis were degenerate right-wingers fueled by toxic capitalism and racism. But evidence Hitler’s gang were men of the left is compelling. That the Nazis themselves were right-wing extremists is a persisting myth. This insidious lie biases the entire political landscape today.
I’m not going to search for it for you. If you want to repost it, you search for it yourself, repost it, and, rather than just ranting, try using it to make an actual case based on evidence, rather than rants in which you drop the occasional cherry-picked quote from before the Nazis took power and purged the last remnants of anything resembling socialism in the party during the Night of the Long Knives.
As for the rest, you’re peddling such obvious bullshit that you are starting to bore me now.
Are you seriously asking if Hitler would lie about something like that?
Renate isn’t suggesting anything. She is flat out stating that Hitler was lying about the Nazi Party being socialist, as opposed to being right-wing. As the above comments by others make clear, Hitler misrepresented (to put it mildly) what the Nazis were to gain support.
“Hitler in a 1927 speech: “we are socialists!” Now you’re suggesting Hitler was lying?”
You are very gullible.
Yes, Hitler was lying. And I don’t have balls.
But well, I suppose you are a big fan of people like Thiery Baudet, or Wybren van Haga.
1927 Nazis were not in power. Hitler was lying to get power, then forget socialist parts of party program.
Though I want get your source. He was much against November traitors (social democrats among them) and Judeo Bolshevism from the start.
@squirrelelite
So you got them all, just like Renate?
And how about you Orac?
“The need for a booster depends, among other things, on how long the protection against severe disease lasts and the prevalence of the virus or bacterium.”
– Yes they know this @Pfizer & Co, don’t they? And this is the reason for the intermission. So when you’re adviced to take another shot, you take it? And dependent of in what country you live, you have your young kids injected too (or supposed you have them), I guess?
“Multiple scientific evidence supports the very good safety of the Covid-19 vaccinations and practically nobody has died from them (verified)”.
– As a note in the sidelines: isn’t this a matter of what ‘evidence’ you like following? There’s lots of ‘evidence’ these days.
“2.5% of all deaths in the U.S. were due to Covid-19 last week.”
There’s with and due to; I’m not counting, so I wouldn’t know. Neither do I know the percentage of the excess mortality that’s due to the vaccine.
Scientific evidence is what counts here
WRT evidence, I note a conspicuous lack of it in your posts,
Also, the scientific process has to account for all valid evidence, not just the evidence that you like. We see this playing out in real time with the discoveries of the James Webb Space Telescope.
Of course in medical research there are different ways of conducting studies and a range of quality in how well they are performed.
Here is some evidence I recently examined and my response to it.
http://disq.us/p/2wbvk3w
My evidence comes from clinical practice. I don’t give a flying fornication about Pfizer. End of story. Go back to ranting about Nazis you were on a roll there.
@Orac
“As someone above said, the whole “socialism” of the Nazi Party must be why…”
Basically what you’re conveying is that if Joe Biden hasn’t kept his election promise, he is not a democrat, right?
And one step further, in case he’ll loose WW3 (aside from the discussion whether your wonderful country initiated it or not), your history books will later describe the man as an ultra right republican. He must be, after all democrats are human peace lovers.
Do you really not see your own snake-like reasoning?
If Joe Biden would jettison all Democratic party programs he would not be a Democrat in ideological sense This is the sense you used wwwhen speaking socialists and left wingers.
Democrats are not necessary peace lovers, Johnson comes to my mind.
@Chris
“In response to Lucas:
Israeli leaders are NAZIS; Nazis are leftwing authoritarians- Socialist is in their name (NN)
You made a grave error by spouting idiotic nonsense to someone whose hobbies also include WWII: https://oracknows.blogspot.com/search?q=hitler”
Oh Chris please, just read before you post. Those were not my words, it was a quote from Denice Walter. But it was mistakenly posted without comment, which, as you can see, I did somewhat later.
And my hobby is not WWII; it’s just that I see similar patterns (pre WWII and now) that I consider remarkable and certainly interesting.
Lucas:
I was quoting Mike Adams about ” leftwing Nazis” and “Israeli Nazis” :
“NN” is the abbreviation for Natural News. Readers here know that.
“prn.live” is the Progressive Radio Network which isn’t progressive.
@Orac
“In response to Chris:”
Yeah, make it even worse. Chris had a problem reading and here you continue on it.
“He’s also not even particularly creative in his parroting the lie that Nazis were leftists. I mean, geez, the best he can do is to cherry pick the odd quote from well before the Nazis came to power and purged the last of anything resembling socialism from the party.”
This is called politics Orac, you should know this by now. According to your views, answer me: does a socialist exist? Has ever one existed?
You still don’t get it, do you?
Clement Attlee, Francois Mitterand an Indira Gandhi were socialists.
@Orac
“I’m not going to search for it for you. If you want to repost it, you search for it yourself and repost it and, rather than just ranting, make an actual case based on evidence,”
Finally a wise word: evidence.
That is what you get when you take just a minute of your time and search for it. For you this should be much easier to do. That said, I’m having covid again from a 4 x vaxxed family member, I did try and search and couldn’t find it, I don’t feel like a long search now and I’m not writing the essay again either.
‘rather than cherry-picked statements from before the Nazis took power and purged the last remnants of anything resembling socialism in the party during the Night of the Long Knives.”
Did I mention the Nazis in the context of before they took over power? Not specifically as far as I remember.
“As for the rest, you’re peddling such obvious bullshit that you are starting to bore me now.”
The typical words when loosing a discussion. Ever heard of FA Hayek, ‘The Road to Serfdom’, published in 1944? Then for you’re own sake start reading, at least you’ll show some awareness afterwards.
Lots of academics are like you and it is no less than a threat to society, you just don’t realise the danger of your views yet.
“Did I mention the Nazis in the context of before they took over power? Not specifically as far as I remember.”
You quoted Hitler from a 1927 speech.🤦🏻♂️
Thanks for comfirming that you have no good arguments.
Roots of Nazism lie in socialism is no same thing that Nazis are socialist.
But Hayek was wrong. Roots of nazism was anticommunism and antisocialism,
Nazis instituted war economy, which is another hing.
@ldw56old
“Yeah, the Nazis were leftist. That’s why, in the late 1920s as the German economy careened downward, that notable liberal Hitler gathered support from wealthy industrialists, all of whom were strongly against socialism and socialist policies.
Otto Strasser came to realize Hitler had moved the Nazi party away from socialism and neither he nor his supporters cared about workers, so he [Strasser] left the party.
They were so leftist that Hindenburg (another famous leftist, am I right?) made him chancellor. Then, in April 1933, communists, socialists, democrats, and Jews were purged from the German civil services, with trade unions getting the boot soon after. (Perhaps all of his lefty friends were purged because they didn’t like his art?)
With the banning of all other political parties in July, as well as leaders in the Communist and Social Democratic Parties arrested and sent to concentration camps, hitler cemented himself as the definition of left-wing brutal leader.
Of course, all of those things saying Hitler was left wing and the Nazis were socialist only make sense if you are a history-denying dolt. Oh, look who’s here: Lucas. Speak of the stereotypical history-denying dolt.”
Yup, the same mistake Orac makes.
Did I say mistake? I guess you are intentonally mixing up the political agenda for the Bühne with political reality. In the case of socialists you simply deny reality by saying it’s not socialism. But you are aware I hope that in politics the Bühne and reality are more opposite than they match. So perhaps we had better discuss whether or not there is überhaupt such thing as a socialist. The true face of socialists, not the wunderschöne empty starting points they love to decorate themselves with, as long as control and power aren’t theirs, is what it is (or better: should be) about. Period.
So either socialists don’t exist nor have they ever, or except their garbage (widespread corruption, suppression of freedom and abuse of power in general) they carry with them, especially as socialists. But don’t rediculously rebatch these socialists when they didn’t match your utopian wet dreams.
I did give you a list in the past as a tool to identify / determin a socialist, Hitler and his scum fit into this rather in detail. You did not respond on the substance then.
Socialist in power would implement socialist policies, like Clement Attlee did. (Or Mitterand or Indira Gandhi).Hitler did not.
@Orac
“He’s also not even particularly creative in his parroting the lie that Nazis were leftists. I mean, geez, the best he can do is to cherry pick the odd quote from well before the Nazis came to power and purged the last of anything resembling socialism from the party.”
The last one parroting will be me, it is basically the reason I’ve made money in huge quantities.
No Orac, it’s not the value of Hitler’s statement itself and this should be crystal clear meanwhile.
And history wouldn’t be worth digging into if it were not to repeat. It is in the academic environment in particular where socialism is promoted and what students seem to be brainwashed with.
This is dangerous. Once socialist structures are at play, what you’ll end up with is widespread corruption and a take away of freedom and rights made possible by these typical authoritarian unrestrained leftists. And yes, like Hitler and his gang, when will you stop falsifying history; it’s just that you see them in different shapes, like f.e. these typical correct and moralizing types, more dominant now but with the same mindset and values. Then afterwards it’s people like you again denying this was socialism. And thus keep your dream alive for another attempt when the breeding ground will be there again.
Stupid people.
Seriously, dude, you bore me. Just look at the comments policy to see what I do when a trollish commenter bores me too much for too long.🙄🤦🏻♂️
A pic of history: Clement Attlee did have a socialisic program. His poliicioes were revrsed, a least when Thatcher came to power, Removing socialistic strucures are possible, just win the election.
@Renate
“Don’t know exactly, should look it up. In the end it doesn’t matter. There are medicines one has to take on a daily basis and well, some vaccines don’t protect forever.”
At least you are honest about it. I guess quite a few of these mRNA vaccine apostles quit boosting themselves and their familiy. For them I have some questions; but unlike you, it seems they do not want to answer my simple question. Guess why.
Unlike you I’m not into taking medical treatments when not really necessary. But that’s just me.
Well, I don’t take medications when not really neccesary. I can’t really remember when is the last time I’ve taken a painkiller.
But vaccines offer protection and if not for me, for vulnerable people around me, so I gladly take them. No big deal. The worst part is getting wet on my bike, when I’m going to get them.
@Orac
“In response to Chris:
He obviously has not read In the Garden of Beasts by Eric Larson. It does show how the Nazis were trying to hide their real purpose.
He’s rapidly irritating me, which is why it think I’ll post comment guidelines right here, just to remjnd Lucas. https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/commenting-policy/”
You still don’t get it. Look at what Chris says: “The Nazis were trying to hide their real purpose”.
Just like you Chris is implying that socialism with impure motive does not exist. See how you all elevated socialism and gave it this cult status that isn’t to be questioned?
I may perhaps have the freedom to say you are a moron and probably will not get banned here, but if I point at the awful consequences of socialism, the threat is there. Strange.
In the end any socialist structure will corrupt the same way as was the case with the Nazis. And when the damage is done you just simply rename the bastards.
Remains the question why proof it again?
Anyway, take your pick, either a socialist political party has never existed, does not exist and will never exist or live with the unavoidable consequences of socialism. Just don’t relabel like you all do, that is ‘rapidly irritating me’.
UK labor was a socialist party until Tony Blair. It indeed changed its platfrom to win elections (Foot was quite a disaster and to caused long Conservative dominance.
@Chris
““Hitler in a 1927 speech: “we are socialists!” Now you’re suggesting Hitler was lying?”
You are very gullible.”
Man oh man, you’re not one of the brightest.
Chris please. I spell it for you: NO ONE CARES WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS LYING. That’s not the point.
You ydo care. You yourself cited Hitler’s words as a proof that he is a socialist. So it is important id he lie or not.
@ldw56old
“I don’t know. What is your for your history denial?”
Strange question.
Now that you’re here, you will remember our discussion about one of the main problems in our time, being this ‘slow dive into chaos’. Somewhat later the proxy war with Russia followed. Beforehand I wrote here that war was going to be the likely scenario. Despite that I was rediculed for it then (wasn’t it Arno Syvanen who said I “watched too many science fiction movies”?), so it happened.
Last time I promised to get back to you after a year to take note of what to add to the list. It hasn’t been a year, merely half of it. You can add the situation in the Middle East now, like you may remember I said was likely to escalate. So ldw56old, here we are with yet another war.
I repeat myself about what will happen at some point: our leaders will come united to declare all is well and peaceful. This may sound good to many at first, but soon after they’ll realise it’s becoming hell on earth.
So ldw56, we’re now yet another step closer to this event that I’m sure will be all over the news by then. Why so? Well, one of these issues might f.e. escalate further and may at some point perhaps even force our leaders to come up with this reassuring statement to the people. But that’s a supposition, I don’t know what will be the direct inducement. It will be nothing more than a lie anyway.
Depending on your personal choices, the frightening scenario will be that as soon as you hear that statement, instead of peace you’ll find yourself in a society that will gradually (not sure at what speed) but completely loose its structure. With complete chaos as the final result. Not many will survive that period.
You’ve still got time to do what’s necessary, ldw56. It’s up to you, really.
You know what, I’ll get back to you with the next event to add to the list. Be sure there is more to follow.
This proxy war is strange term, Russia did attack and Ukraine got help.very ea
Russoa can end the war very easily. It can even keep Crimea, for now.
@Julian Frost
“Renate isn’t suggesting anything. She is flat out stating that Hitler was lying about the Nazi Party being socialist, as opposed to being right-wing. As the above comments by others make clear, Hitler misrepresented (to put it mildly) what the Nazis were to gain support.”
Just like any other socialist regime in power will have misrepresent.
Julian, to you too: stop dreaming utopian BS, it’s dangerous.
Like I wrote to others: either there is no such thing as a socialist regime or there is. If so, be a man and accept its horrific misdeeds. And don’t relabel afterwards.
@Renate
“But well, I suppose you are a big fan of people like Thiery Baudet, or Wybren van Haga.”
I’m not into politics for obvious reasons. If you choose to support some political party, do realise that it makes you responsible for its actions. Many of the older Germans still bear the shame of supporting their so called socialist saviour. But more than shame, they are responsible as well.
@Renate
Israeli leaders are NAZIS; Nazis are leftwing authoritarians- Socialist is in their name (NN)
Funny, because Israel has a right-wing government.
It looks like the word Nazis is used far to often at this moment.
Putin fights against Ukrainian Nazis (according to Putin)
Renate please, those aren’t my words. It was a quote, not originating from me.
Btw I agree with you that the word Nazi is used ‘te pas en te onpas’. The grandfather of a German girlfriend I once had was a Nazi (and a socialist). Calling someone a Nazi nowadays has no meaning without a proper definition.
And it’s in no small part thanks to people like you and your “Nazis are leftist” rhetoric that the meaning of the word is no longer as clear to most people as it should be.
Nazis must be socialist because it’s in the party’s name! Proof positive!
Just like the Peoples’ Democratic Republic of Korea must be a democracy because it’s in the republic’s name.
Idiot.
@ldw56old
““His “economic” post above shows he’s as clueless about politics and economics [so much for his degree] ” What makes you say he’s clueless about economics? Feel free to motivate your dissenting point of view.”
“Given your demonstrated ignorance of just about anything, trying to teach you any subject (i know you’re another “economist” who failed in your education) is a waste of time.””
Iow, you have no clue what has been happening in the bond market that Igor is talking about. That’s not too smart. After all, when bond markets are being hit hard, it’s likely to impact you.
Igor: “The assets that many of us hold, such as homes and stocks and fixed income securities, may not retain their purchasing power because they are overpriced. Even our currency is overpriced. If adjustments happen, it will eventually be beneficial, but expect a lot of pain in the coming years.”
Yup. And talking about ‘purchasing power’, in september 2019 I warned for mega inflation as being inevitable; it took off somewhat later. However your bank account may show the same number as back then, your government has robbed you for some 20 percent (or so, not sure about real inflation over there) meanwhile. You’ve been robbed, stupido! Gone is that purchasing power. ‘Given YOUR demonstrated ignorance” of money and finance, tell me how much did you compensate by investing in the right assets? Fools like you, thinking everyone else is ignorant, never learn and this time will be no exception. Am I correct or not?
I guess your arrogance remains even if you’ve got no more than a stone to scratch your back.
Igor: “The interest on our Federal debt is rising dramatically due to interest rates increasing and will soon overtake the military budget, Social Security etc.”
So true, the situation has gone completely out of hand. A ‘trilemma’ of problems (inflation, growth and financial stability) has cornered the Fed again — but this time there’s no good way out. Translated into English: be assured you will be deprived of much more of your purchasing power, stupido.
@Aarno Syvänen
“Israeli leaders are NAZIS; Nazis are leftwing authoritarians- Socialist is in their name (NN)
Nazis did not a single socialist thing when they were in power. Hamas is much closer to Nazis than Israeli giovernment. Hamas does kill Jews.”
Aarno please, not you too. This was just a quote to which my response disappeared, it was not my text! I’m not informed enough about the Israeli leaders to say that.
Nevertheless it is a fact that Nazis were ultra leftwing authoritarians. In the past I gave extensive proof of this at this forum, but I cannot find the text anymore, Orac isn’t willing to do a search and I’m not willing to rewrite the essay. I’m sorry, too much work and I’m not 100% because of covid either.
It is certainly not true that the Nazis didn’t show socialist behavior when in power. How about that both Socialism and Nazism / Fascism want to impose politically chosen ends on everybody? And be it in a different way, each system coercively favors and harms groups of individuals in society.
Yuk, do stay away from the -isms! Not again, don’t you realize what you’re asking for?
@Aarno Syvänen
“You perhaps can mention one leftwing act Nazis did in power and name a Nazi in Israel.”
Abortion.
Nazis in Israel: ask this our minister of Finance, Sigrid Kaag, leader of the leftwing party D66 and high ranking member of the WEF. Her husband was a politician for pro Palestina organisations like Fatah. She has the list.
@Aarno Syvänen
“Hitler was lying to get power, then forget socialist parts of party program.
Though I want get your source. He was much against November traitors (social democrats among them) and Judeo Bolshevism from the start.”
No, he just showed typical socialist behavior, see previous comments to prevent repetition.
Question for you: does socialism exist or has it ever existed? If so, give me those examples of socialism in practice.
@Aarno Syvänen
“If Joe Biden would jettison all Democratic party programs he would not be a Democrat in ideological sense This is the sense you used wwwhen speaking socialists and left wingers.
Democrats are not necessary peace lovers, Johnson comes to my mind.”
Indeed.
But wait a minute. Isn’t ideology a dangerous concept if in reality it opens the door to widespread corruption and violation of basic rights? Shall we not use the word pretext instead?
Socialism has turned out to be one of the strongest pretexts for evil. Convince me wrong.
@squirrelelite
“WRT evidence, I note a conspicuous lack of it in your posts,
Also, the scientific process has to account for all valid evidence, not just the evidence that you like. We see this playing out in real time with the discoveries of the James Webb Space Telescope.”
I don’t know what WRT stands for.
In general, the only evidence I ‘like’ is evidence that endorses the evidence that formed my opinion.
Unfortunately I still have no hard proof to what extent these mRNA vaccines are dangerous. Until today our government refuses to release the relevant GGD and RIVM data. So I cannot link vaccination status to excess mortality or vaccine side effects; even if I could, I have to be careful with the interpretation.
The higer vaccinated countries however seem to be the countries with the higher excess mortality. Perhaps that’s no hard proof of the vaccines’ harmfulness, but it does ring a bell. And there is more of similar indications.
I’m certainly alarmed when a woman I know well (around 62 – 65) ends up with a double pulmonary embolism soon after mRNA vaccination (I wrote about this long before). And more recently I met a woman my age that I know since youth as well; I already knew she ended up in a wheelchair. But now she told me that she couldn’t get out of the barber’s chair the very same day she received an mRNA vaccine; and it has stayed that way ever since (except for some slight improvement). Two examples that I almost have to link to the vaccine. Short version: for and against balanced, these vaccines are apparently better for you to take. I don’t even need them in the first place. Just like almost all healthy people that don’t need and thus shouldn’t (have) take(n) them.
I’m almost sure that quite a few of the vaccine apostles here stopped taking these vaccines for themselves and their loved ones. For them I have a few questions, but they are too much of a coward to respond. At least this cannot be said about you.
Thanks for the link, I will have a look at it later.
With Respect To GGD, did the CDC use GetGood Drums or GoGold Resources to research the safety and efficacy of Covid-19 vaccines?
That is pretty much the definition of confirmation bias. It is also contrary to the scientific method.
You can read research from RIVM here.
https://www.rivm.nl/en/coronavirus-covid-19/research
Our (U.S.) government has no control over the health agency of another country.
In the U.S. there are ways for qualified researchers to access the Vaccine Safety Datalink. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Netherlands has a similar system.
I heard this bullshyt in clinic from someone the other day, too. You all get your talking points from the same few fools and do zero critical thinking. “They won’t release the data!” “I know sixteen people and one alligator that got clots MINUTES after the vaccine!”
The loony patient tried to sell me on his “friend” becoming a cannibal desperate for blood because of the “clots.” I laughed to myself: “Satanic panic and covid bs all in one, genius.”
If you knew anything about physiology, you’d know how incoherent this clotting argument you all keep making is.
@Aarno Syvänen
“Roots of Nazism lie in socialism is no same thing that Nazis are socialist.”
– I agree on that.
“But Hayek was wrong. Roots of nazism was anticommunism and antisocialism,”
It’s easy to say someone is wrong. But tell me, why do you want Hayek to be wrong? What’s bothering you?
“Nazis instituted war economy, which is another hing.”
Yes, but not just that. The ‘war industry’ itself didn’t doesn’t produce goods or services necessary for the welfare or well-being of the German population. Still both improved under Hitler’s regime. From hyperinflation to full employment would be a good description.
@Orac
“And it’s in no small part thanks to people like you and your “Nazis are leftist” rhetoric that the meaning of the word is no longer as clear to most people as it should be.”
Here’s another ‘dude’ that might shatter your worldview: “The Big Lie: Exposing the Nazi Roots of the American Left” by Dinesh D’Souza.
Good luck.
Dinesh D’Souza?
ROTFLMAO!
Seriously? Dinesh D’Souza? That’s all you’ve got?
@Orac
“Dinesh D’Souza?
ROTFLMAO!
Seriously? Dinesh D’Souza? That’s all you’ve got?”
Since you haven’t given the impression you can handle much, for you yes.
I’ve already persued D’Souza’s stuff. It’s not worth my time, and neither are you any longer.
d’souza? the convicted criminal? The guy who wrote a review of Obama’s book an admitted he’d never read it? That is the level of “source” we expect from you lucas: someone as devoted to lies as you.
@squirrelelite
“With Respect To GGD, did the CDC use GetGood Drums or GoGold Resources to research the safety and efficacy of Covid-19 vaccines?”
Yet another example of this ‘centre of the world’ mentality.
Suppose you would have googled GGD, what shows up immediatly is “Coronavaccinatie bij GGD”. Translated this could easily mean something like… Corona vaccination at GGD? Apparently GGD is linked to vaccination, which means the GGD will have the corresponding records. Easy, Squirrel.
Otherwise Wikipedia or perhaps even GGD itself is there to help. GGD stand for “Geneeskundige gezondheidsdienst of Gemeenschappelijke gezondheidsdienst” and with Google translate we get “medical health service or community health service”.
So, the GGD has all the relevant records on vaccination status, age, even the pimple on my nose. At the RIVM they have records of who died and when.
So now we should easily be able to exclude a possible link between death and vaccination status, indicating that the disturbing excess mortality is not due to vaccination (at all). Unfortunately our government has been an obstructing factor.
Oh and… I think I need to do this research myself. I don’t like statistics when the results originate from just some hired ‘pro’ or ‘contra’ investigator.
“”the only evidence I ‘like’ is evidence that endorses the evidence that formed my opinion.
That is pretty much the definition of confirmation bias. It is also contrary to the scientific method.”
Not so fast Squirrel. If a scientist has done his research well and based on it is able to come to conclusions, he will always be interested in further support. But here you go wrong, because does this mean he is not, or should not be, open to evidence that tends to the opposite? You have apparently concluded this is the case? Because in practice it happens so often?
So, no, this is not the definition of confirmation bias and it does not have to be contrary to the scientific method.
“You can read research from RIVM here.
https://www.rivm.nl/en/coronavirus-covid-19/research”
Is the value of this research perhaps not similar to the research that made your president claim: “take your vaccine and you will not get covid”? Come on Squirrel.
“In the U.S. there are ways for qualified researchers to access the Vaccine Safety Datalink. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Netherlands has a similar system.”
Somewhow I get the itchy feeling that ‘qualified’ means biased. And the problem with statistics is that you can almost get any outcome that you want. Which means there’s quite some pretty useless outcome that I’m not interested in.
Second verse, same as the first. (actually it’s more like 4 or 5 now)
I think I’m about with Orac now.
You don’t make any claims supported by published evidence that even merit investigation. You just repeat speculations, theories and excuses. And none of them are even interesting enough to warrant ferreting out.
I like science because it’s an open, collaborative process. (That’s how all that Ivermectin research got published.) The researchers put their results out there for other people to dig through, check the methodology, and look for what is significant (which is kind of what I did in writing the comment I linked to,)
Qualified in general means the researcher has studied enough to know what they are doing and gone through some hoops to ensure the study will be ethical and might produce something useful. Unlike the case of another recent blog where an economist decided to dabble on the side in epidemiology!
I have a certain bar for comments to merit a response. As long as you keep slithering under it, there is no need for me to post additional responses.
@MedicalYeti
“I heard this bullshyt in clinic from someone the other day, too. You all get your talking points from the same few fools and do zero critical thinking. “They won’t release the data!” “I know sixteen people and one alligator that got clots MINUTES after the vaccine!””
There’s outcome all over the place. As long as I don’t have access to raw data to do my own research, I have no basis for conclusions really.
This is the reason I prefer to just look around me and see who is dying of covid and watch who suffers from potential side effects of the vaccine.
For now I can just say that these vaccines are not as lethal as some scientists want us to believe, nor are they as safe as other scientists are bragging about.
Now you deal with covid patients. What would be the percentage vaccinated now?
“If you knew anything about physiology, you’d know how incoherent this clotting argument you all keep making is.”
Did I ever make a clotting argument?
What I did find disturbing is that quite soon after vaccination, I watched a woman I now from youth ending up with a double pulmonary embolism. I think I know that much about physiology to conclude that that was clotting, MedicalYeti.
You might say it was a pure coincidence. Fine, I’m not too keen on such coincidences.
@Aarno Syvänen
“Clement Attlee, Francois Mitterand an Indira Gandhi were socialists.”
Mitterand, the man known for his scandals, like ordering the attack on the Rainbow Warrior during which a photographer from my country lost his life? Yeah, he could have been a true socialist.
Mitterand nor Ghandhi created a socialist society.
For socialism in practice you might have a look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_states. Look at this ‘combined map of all countries that declared themselves socialist states’. Tell me in which of these countries would you like to (have) live(d)?
Don’t you agree that socialism in practice is an abomination?
Why is socialism so popular amongst people like you?
@Aarno Syvänen
“You ydo care. You yourself cited Hitler’s words as a proof that he is a socialist. So it is important id he lie or not.”
Aarno, you missed the point. Even though some snake types here tried to push me in that direction, I certainly did not use it as proof. What kind of proof would that be?
In the past I made a rather extensive list about socialist characteristics and posted it here, but I can’t find it back and Orac doesn’t like a search. Such a checklist is useful. BUT (and there is a big but), socialist regimes tend to quickly show a different face when in control. That is the underlying, but true, face of socialism. History shows that socialism tends to all sorts of evil, even to Nazism.
So unless you are a hater of mankind or are in it for self privilege, stay away from socialism. And don’t get yourself brainwashed into believing that for once socialism will work out fine for an entire population. By no means it will.
@Aarno Syvänen
“This proxy war is strange term, Russia did attack and Ukraine got help.very ea
Russoa can end the war very easily. It can even keep Crimea, for now.”
Which is just half of the background. The West violated the deal with Russia not to push the boundery up east; yet they did.
Not to mention the fact that the Americans played a dirty game helping pro western Zelensky get in the saddle.
I’m not fond of corrupt Putin, as he locks up friends of mine for years without being guilty. But the West definately plays a dirty games to which Putin responds.
And as a result I sometimes really stumble upon all those Ukrainians in my country, crowding an over crowded country even more.
@Renate
“Well, I don’t take medications when not really neccesary. I can’t really remember when is the last time I’ve taken a painkiller.
But vaccines offer protection and if not for me, for vulnerable people around me, so I gladly take them. No big deal. The worst part is getting wet on my bike, when I’m going to get them.”
Just as like with the flu, when you’re healthy and not that old, I guess you don’t need the shot. Unlike all the panicking and disinformation, it seems you can take that risk. Be sure some medical specialist here reads along and will respond if he or she disagrees. Let’s see.
Question: how do you protect someone else if you get vaccinated? A recent study shows that you’re shedding as many virus particles when you get covid. And it’s clear that the vaccine will not protect you from getting it. Perhaps the problem is that when you are vaccinated and catch the virus you may not even really feel sick. Then it’s ‘hi grandma, kiss kiss. Dead’.
Apparently “get vaccinated and you will protect others’ was just another piece of disinformation from Pharma through the governement. Fine.
All in all Renate, I don’t understand why you take a risk with these vaccines. But I guess you have considered all ins and outs, perhaps I missed some relevant detail.
Good thing you go by bike. Whenever possible I do the same. And when I’m at my house in Amsterdam, riding my bike through the city center with some music on feels better than, than, whatever. But unlike you I prefer to stay home when it rains.
“Just as like with the flu, when you’re healthy and not that old, I guess you don’t need the shot.”
You guessed wrong: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2020-2021/pediatric-flu-deaths-reach-new-high.htm
“A recent study shows that you’re shedding as many virus particles when you get covid.”
Hitchens’s razor: “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
Now show us that study. Produce the PubMed indexed study by reputable qualified researchers. Because it is hard to imagine that a vaccine that does not contain viruses nor does it create any can “shed virus.”
Further unverified claims and links to anything but the PubMed index papers written by qualified reputable researchers will be ignored (as we laugh at your gullible ignorance).
@Orac
“I’ve already persued D’Souza’s stuff. It’s not worth my time, and neither are you any longer.”
You know what I think Orac? I think we don’t get along so well.
May be we should drink a beer together sometime. And who knows you’re not as bad as it looks.
I haven’t read D’Souza to be honest with you, but from a summary I think he might actually be right. And perhaps you’re actually wrong.
I am a son of parents that I describe as war children; where they were raised it happened to be hell because of this lunatic, a so called – or not so called – socialist.
Guys like you seem to favor socialism. But what I see is that all of these socialist regimes are, let’s say, terrible. The Germans are an intelligent population, yet fell for socialist lies. Something similar might occur in a new guise. With socialism as a pretext. Autoritarians play that violine. Promise a lot, but once in power too much will be taken from you. Feel free to share the exceptions if you know them.
I have some twenty years to go if I’m lucky, so personally I don’t care much about what will come. And besides I have the resources to go elsewhere. So I’m not wasting time here for myself.
I don’t know about you or your family. But if enough people like you ask for a socialist structure, then even in your country this is not unlikely; the more so when the economic tide turns. But why the rediculous experiment?
@ldw56old
“d’souza? the convicted criminal? The guy who wrote a review of Obama’s book an admitted he’d never read it? That is the level of “source” we expect from you lucas: someone as devoted to lies as you.”
It takes a criminal to catch a criminal. You should know this.
@squirrelelite
“I think I’m about with Orac now.”
I’m not surprised, you always have been.
“You don’t make any claims supported by published evidence that even merit investigation.”
Indeed, did that in the past but showed useless here.
“You just repeat speculations, theories and excuses. And none of them are even interesting enough to warrant ferreting out.”
I’m not speculating much here, do I? Not more than summing up some observations.
In the past I made a list of possible side effects of the vaccine that showed up in my surrounding; the only one that responded was ldw56. I was a ‘liar’, the funny guy chatted. There is no reason for lies, I don’t have any interests anywhere, except in the financial sector.
Conclusion: you obviously don’t care, you’re just here to defend these vaccines no matter what. Who pays you anyway? Or what else is the reason for your presence here day and night? Only a moron would waste so much time for nothing in return.
“I like science because it’s an open, collaborative process. (That’s how all that Ivermectin research got published.) The researchers put their results out there for other people to dig through, check the methodology, and look for what is significant (which is kind of what I did in writing the comment I linked to,)”
You should have kept it open, but you chose not too. All is money driven. It has been for long in the sector I’m active, but that’s money only. But regretibly money meney money has infiltrated the medical establishment deeply. Spare me your BS, it’s annoying. What’s so collaborative? I count one: the way you shut up ‘anti-vaxxers’.
@Chris
“”Just as like with the flu, when you’re healthy and not that old, I guess you don’t need the shot.”
You guessed wrong: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/spotlights/2020-2021/pediatric-flu-deaths-reach-new-high.htm“”
In the first place I was, as you will know, in discussion with Renate about her needing the vaccine. And I could be wrong, but I just guessed she does not fall under Pediatry.
Now, since you’re the only one posting and you do not insist that she takes the covid shot, there will be no need for her in your opinion? Otherwise that is exactly what you would have posted, wouldn’t you Chris?
But let’s wait, I do hope at least one of the specialists here will respond (you all read along). Tricking healthy people into believing they need a medical treatment which they don’t, I would describe as criminal behaviour.
But the flu can be dangerous for infants indeed. How many resorting under Pediatry get a flu shot?
Tell me what effects them more, covid or the flu? If the flu, why this push for the risky mRNA and not the (probably much less risky) flu vaccine?
“A recent study shows that you’re shedding as many virus particles when you get covid.”
Hitchens’s razor: “What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
Thanks for the wise lesson, Chris.
“Now show us that study. Produce the PubMed indexed study by reputable qualified researchers. Because it is hard to imagine that a vaccine that does not contain viruses nor does it create any can “shed virus.”
You should read more careful Chris. That’s not what it was about. It was about the shedding of vaccinated people with Covid vs. unvaccinated people with Covid. Please read that back.
As a preprint I know it’s completely ungrounded, has absolutely no value and is probably even plain false, but here you go. Oh and Chrissie, think about your blood pressure, will you? https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.09.06.23295138v1
“Further unverified claims and links to anything but the PubMed index papers written by qualified reputable researchers will be ignored (as we laugh at your gullible ignorance).”
Yes sir! I see you are really looking forward to read about the findings.
“Yes sir! I see you are really looking forward to read about the findings.”
I am. But you failed. That is a preprint, so it has not been approved for publication. That is what the “pre” bit means. I am sure you have no idea how to even search the PubMed index.
You have now graduated from chew toy, to foolish troll who loves to show us his gullible ignorance. Yes, I am literally laughing at you.
Also, that paper is silly. The mRNA vaccines do not encode the entire SARS-CoV-2 virus, nor do they create the virus: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html#mrna
If you click on the “How mRNA COVID-19 vaccines work” drop down menu, you will get more information. Especially this bit:
“After vaccination, the mRNA will enter the muscle cells. Once inside, they use the cells’ machinery to produce a harmless piece of what is called the spike protein. The spike protein is found on the surface of the virus that causes COVID-19. After the protein piece is made, our cells break down the mRNA and remove it, leaving the body as waste.”
A protein piece is not a virus.
You can download a graphic that explains how they work: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/downloads/vaccines/COVID-19-mRNA-infographic_G_508.pdf
Do yourself a favor. Stop going down the rabbit hole of misinformation, and sign up for a freshman level biology class at your local community college.
I would also suggest you take a high school level course on reading comprehension. That study was on actual infection, not any vaccine. Which is why no vaccine was mentioned.
This advice is to help you not being so gullible.
The paper you cited says:
I’m not sure why, after accounting for those factors, it would be surprising that the exhaled viral RNA of vaccinated and unvaccinated people would be different, especially after controlling for the last two factors (days since onset of symptoms and severity of infection).
“would be different” -> “would be the same”.
@Chris
“I am. But you failed. That is a preprint,”
Didn’t I say so?? Why repeat? Strange.
“so it has not been approved for publication.”
Yes so? That’s that’s the meaning of ‘preprint’. Fool.
” That is what the “pre” bit means.”
And again. Fool twice.
“I am sure you have no idea how to even search the PubMed index.”
How about you? Fool thrice.
“You have now graduated from chew toy, to foolish troll who loves to show us his gullible ignorance. Yes, I am literally laughing at you.”
I won’t stop you. Seems to be healthy even, so go ahead.
So Chrissie, a vaccinated covid patient compared to an unvaccinated patient may actually make no difference in how she infects granny. Whether peer reviewed or not yet, if Renate thinks that after vaccination Granny is guaranteed safe from her while being infected, you tell her.
It’s not likely that said research will ever give much of a different outcome. It’s no rocket science or has many assumptions.
The next leg as good as sawn out from under your chair. Is there any reason left for Renate to get vaccinated, except that she likes to ride her bike? Tell us, you’ve got our attention, Chris.
@Denice Walter
“I was quoting Mike Adams about ” leftwing Nazis” and “Israeli Nazis” :
“NN” is the abbreviation for Natural News. Readers here know that.
“prn.live” is the Progressive Radio Network which isn’t progressive.”
Yes Denice, I’m aware of this.
Even if you had not shown the source, everyone at the forum would have known this phrase would not originate from you. I was just quoting your quote, and had then posted it without my text I should have added.
Immediatly some guys here – like Chris and Orac – attack me on this piece of text, which shows that these are either superficial readers or have some rotten intention (the end justifies the means).
I hope my signal here is now clear to never allow for some socialist construct, how popular at most universities this may be. History shows these will start ‘left’ (which exists in many flavors and with H. and his gang as just one extreme example) but once in power show an authoritan, corrupt face. After the damage is done you people describe the movement as ultra ‘right’. Nowadays these socialist authoritarians show a so called ‘correct’ face, watch out for them.
About Nazis in Jerusalem, I have some Jewish blood and know several Jews (what’s a ‘Jew’ anyway, you tell me). It’s the non religious academics among them that speak up about Jews being Nazis. Likewise you have these Nazis (unpracticle to use the term without a definition) at the enemy’s side just as well. It’s the religious leaders at both sides stirring up the people. Which explains the continuous mess over there.
From a traditional religous point of view any not Jew at the ‘holy ground’ of Jerusalem shouldn’t be there. A Muslim should understand this – what if it was the other way around, f.e. Jews in Mekka?
From any other perspective, Jews shouldn’t have (given) any right to have settled anywhere in the Middle East. And besides, the true history is that the (demonstrable – with the genealogy still in the Temple) Jews back then rejected their Messiah. As was predicted, Jerusalem would in that case be destroyed and the covenant with God broken. So it happened in 70 AD. So from the true scriptual perspective, Jews have no right either to take back the land they once inhabited. But there is no Muslim who is aware of this and Jews don’t want to face it.
@Chris
“Also, that paper is silly. The mRNA vaccines do not encode the entire SARS-CoV-2 virus, nor do they create the virus: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html#mrna”
We all know that the mRNA in the ‘vaccines’ acts as a cellular messenger and can direct our cells to produce not more then a viral spike protein.
The question however was whether vaccinated Renate will infect granny after having caught covid up to the level as an unvaccinated individual with covid. That answer is now probably yes. Despite all previous misinformation.
“Do yourself a favor. Stop going down the rabbit hole of misinformation, and sign up for a freshman level biology class at your local community college.”
Don’t bother, I have the knowledge based on formal education. Now back to no nonsense. Explain yourself; I don’t spread misinformation, nor have I ever. I do not give advice, not even when asked for.
I asked you and the medical specialists here to give Renate a well-founded advice about going for yet another vaccination, based on what we now know. And I repeat myself: for what reason does young and healthy Renate need another shot?
@Renate: there will be no reply; apparently our specialists in the field do not have a clue why you need to go for the next round of vaccination. They’re just hesitant to tell you.
@Chris
“I would also suggest you take a high school level course on reading comprehension. That study was on actual infection, not any vaccine. Which is why no vaccine was mentioned.”
You moron, that was what I have been telling you from the START. Fool!
@prl
“I’m not sure why, after accounting for those factors, it would be surprising that the exhaled viral RNA of vaccinated and unvaccinated people would be different, especially after controlling for the last two factors (days since onset of symptoms and severity of infection).”
Now you’re saying this, not before. Well, tell the retired Jewish PHD (I forgot his name) here. He denied just this some one and a half year ago.
[…] with dreaded plasmid DNA that might somehow integrate into your genome and cause “turbo cancer” by disrupting tumor suppressor genes…or something. (Whatever they do, according to […]
[…] of spike protein produced during an actual case of COVID-19 infection. (Oh, and he’s also claiming that the vaccines cause “turbo cancer,” which is totally not a thing any more than […]
[…] Unsurprisingly, antivaxxers being antivaxxers and there never being anything truly new under the sun in antivax misinformation, COVID-19 antivaxxers glommed onto the presence of the SV40 promoter sequence, a short DNA sequence frequently used in plasmids because it is a strong promoter that drives the production of a lot of mRNA, in the plasmid used by Pfizer—but not, I note, Moderna—to drive the expression of an antibiotic resistance marker—but not, I note, the actual spike protein mRNA—to resurrect this particular fear mongering about SV40 in COVID-19 vaccines. Antivaxxers have even gone beyond old misinformation about SV40 whole virus contamination in polio vaccines causing cancer to SV40 promoter sequence in COVID-19 vaccines somehow causing “turbo cancer,” because that’s so much scarier than just cancer, no matter how ridiculous it is, so much so that COVID-19 quacks Dr. Peter McCullough and Dr. William Makis have been spreading this message. Sadly, reinforcing my point about how not knowing common antivax narratives can lead even seemingly reasonable scientists astray, even the director of a large cancer center fell for the trap of finding these claims plausible, thus totally embarrassing himself by agreeing to be interviewed by a rabid antivax conspiracy theorist. […]
[…] trivia that antivaxxers frequently fail to mention—can integrate in the genome and cause cancer. (It can’t.) All of these statements are true, and they don’t even cover everything that was wrong with […]
[…] in depth a number of times, complete with a discussion of the science and evidence, there is no plausible mechanism by which the vaccines could cause cancer, “turbo cancer” or otherwise, so fast, nor is […]
[…] An antivaxxer interviews a respected oncologist about “turbo cancer” […]